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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: Coveny on October 20, 2017, 05:16:15 PM

Title: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Coveny on October 20, 2017, 05:16:15 PM
First off I will provide the rules for brothels as:
1. They require condoms.
2. They accept any customer.
3. They must prove they are free of STDs regularly. (monthly)
4. Each person has their own prices and list of what they are willing to do.


In 2003 Rhode Island, accidently decriminalized prostitution. The effects of this were “caused both forcible rape offenses and gonorrhea incidence to decline for the overall population. Our synthetic control model finds 824 fewer reported rape offenses (31 percent decrease) and 1,035 fewer cases of female gonorrhea (39 percent decrease) from 2004 to 2009”
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20281

This breaks down into two argument in favor of legalized prostitution.

1) Rape dropped by 824. The effects of which will affect the victim for the rest of their lives.
https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

2) Gonorrhea dropped by 1,035. STDs are a critical health concern affecting this country.
https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/3805.pdf

3) It is hypocrisy with prostitution being illegal, while porn is legal. Whatever argument can be for or against, one can be made for the other. 
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/colb.pornography/index.html?iref=allsearch

4) No one sees any problem with massages. No one sees any problem getting their hair, nails, or feet done. In all these cases, you are paying another human being to touch you. How is sex any different?

5) Freedom is being able to choose what you do with your body. Choosing to have sex with someone for money is no different.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Munch on October 20, 2017, 05:23:54 PM
I've of the opinion that as long as you follow safety rules set by the place, things like this should be made legal.

Though tbh, if someone is of the mind set to rape another person, they are not going to care about the rules such as being std free or using condoms.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: PopeyesPappy on October 20, 2017, 05:48:39 PM
I don't have a problem with legalized prostitution. I'd like to see some more mandatory protections put in place for the service providers than the OP specifies though. Things like mandatory healthcare coverage, minimum base pay, frequent health and welfare inspections and limits on the house cut. Once a month testing for STD's sounds a little slack too. Once a week maybe.

I also don't see why it should be limited to brothels either. If somebody can get a two-year degree in neurosurgery and start performing brain surgery out of their home I don't see why they couldn't sell dick and pussy there too.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 20, 2017, 06:58:51 PM
Prostitution today in the US mostly consists of the exploitation of 14 year old girls on the street or kidnapping of the same from their homes.  You must pay attention to what the customer base wants ... not my 90 year old mother.

On the other hand, I would be happy to have McDonald's legalize cannibalism ... we have many excess D and R apes who need productive employment ;-)  McD Burger or McR Nuggets anyone?  As long as it is government regulated of course, unless we want a self regulated business like Uber.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Shiranu on October 20, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
Quote4) No one sees any problem with massages. No one sees any problem getting their hair, nails, or feet done. In all these cases, you are paying another human being to touch you. How is sex any different?

People don't normally stick their dick in you at a massage, for one...
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 20, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 20, 2017, 07:00:25 PM
People don't normally stick their dick in you at a massage, for one...

Maybe at the message parlor he goes to ...
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Shiranu on October 20, 2017, 07:10:24 PM
Quote from: Baruch on October 20, 2017, 07:02:56 PM
Maybe at the message parlor he goes to ...

I'm going to the wrong parlors, then.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Mike Cl on October 20, 2017, 07:26:11 PM
Clearly, legalized prostitution is the best way to go for all.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 21, 2017, 02:44:23 AM
Quote from: Coveny on October 20, 2017, 05:16:15 PM
2. They accept any customer.

I think it would be better if they have the right to refuse customers. No?
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: SGOS on October 21, 2017, 04:39:10 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 21, 2017, 02:44:23 AM
I think it would be better if they have the right to refuse customers. No?
"No shoes.  No shirt.  No service."  Well I've seen that sign in restaurants.  Those specific rules might not work as well in a brothel.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Mermaid on October 21, 2017, 02:09:35 PM
There is zero reason that prostitution should be illegal. And no reason people should not have sex for money wherever they choose on whatever terms they choose.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 05:37:38 PM
I don't see actual prostitution by exploited 14 year old girls as ... victimless.  If a 90 year old woman wants to sell herself ... fine ;-)  But that isn't the kind of girl who is popular.  Near pedophilia is what is popular.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Blackleaf on October 21, 2017, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 05:37:38 PM
I don't see actual prostitution by exploited 14 year old girls as ... victimless.  If a 90 year old woman wants to sell herself ... fine ;-)  But that isn't the kind of girl who is popular.  Near pedophilia is what is popular.

Your strategy in arguing against something often depends on false equivalence. Legalized prostitution would, if anything, reduce sex slavery, not increase it. You think if it were regulated, businesses would be willing to take the risk of being caught allowing an underaged girl to work for them?
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 08:43:17 PM
Quote from: Coveny on October 20, 2017, 05:16:15 PM
First off I will provide the rules for brothels as:
1. They require condoms.
2. They accept any customer.
3. They must prove they are free of STDs regularly. (monthly)
4. Each person has their own prices and list of what they are willing to do.
Agreed on everything but #2.  Some Johns are abusive.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on October 21, 2017, 02:09:35 PM
There is zero reason that prostitution should be illegal. And no reason people should not have sex for money wherever they choose on whatever terms they choose.
This.

It's essentially a service job.  Client wants X for money.  Worker supplies X in exchange for money.  As long as it's done in a safe, sane, and consensual way, there's no ethical reason why it shouldn't be done.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 09:29:41 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 21, 2017, 07:02:19 PM
Your strategy in arguing against something often depends on false equivalence. Legalized prostitution would, if anything, reduce sex slavery, not increase it. You think if it were regulated, businesses would be willing to take the risk of being caught allowing an underaged girl to work for them?

Nobody follows laws, not the pimps, not the johns.  Some of you folk have "john" fantasies, hopefully with hot young things (over 21).  You are arguing ... utilitarianism.  If it helps the GPD to grow 10%, by throwing half the people out of work ... it is a net gain in that system.  I would legalize everything ... including police violence, dictatorship, genocide, war ... oh ... we already have that ... just some people claim it isn't so.

People employ illegal aliens all the time, even the government.  Your naivety regarding human behavior is quaint.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 08:43:17 PM
Agreed on everything but #2.  Some Johns are abusive.

Some humans are abusive ... not all are named John, or frequent houses of prostitution.  Therefore?
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 09:32:45 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 08:51:37 PM
This.

It's essentially a service job.  Client wants X for money.  Worker supplies X in exchange for money.  As long as it's done in a safe, sane, and consensual way, there's no ethical reason why it shouldn't be done.

But .. but .. capitalism is evil.  How can you support freedom to commit crime?  Are you a criminal? ;-)  Client wants someone murdered in exchange for money with hit man.  That is capitalism at its basic.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 10:13:18 PM
Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 09:32:45 PMBut .. but .. capitalism is evil.  How can you support freedom to commit crime?  Are you a criminal? ;-)
Well, the goal here is to make it legal.  When you do something that's legal, it's not a crime.  Are you still following me or is this getting too complicated?

QuoteClient wants someone murdered in exchange for money with hit man.
That would clearly violate the safety part.  Also, it would violate the victim's rights (since being dead makes it very difficult to exercise any rights) nor did the victim consent to die.  So basically, a smorgasbord of ethical violations compared to something that isn't at all like that.  I'm not exactly blown away by the comparison and seriously considering retracting my argument.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 09:57:30 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 10:13:18 PM
Well, the goal here is to make it legal.  When you do something that's legal, it's not a crime.  Are you still following me or is this getting too complicated?

That would clearly violate the safety part.  Also, it would violate the victim's rights (since being dead makes it very difficult to exercise any rights) nor did the victim consent to die.  So basically, a smorgasbord of ethical violations compared to something that isn't at all like that.  I'm not exactly blown away by the comparison and seriously considering retracting my argument.

Fully regulated street sex with older women ... won't be economically popular, just saying.  That isn't how Johns roll, empirically.  So basically you would put the government in partnership with private enterprise (instead of outside of government partnership) and guarantee that there are no under 21 boys/girls and regular OSHA/health inspectors (like they had in Nevada) and guarantee high wages and benefits (not something anyone else gets) so that no exploitation occurs?  And the prostitute can turn down any John they don't want to trick with?  That is even better than the Mustang Ranch.  Except, where is that ranch today ... it was so popular, that there were thousands of them all over Nevada, even today?  Didn't think so.  Not saying that you want to bed an underage prostitute ... just that is what the Johns want.

General philosophical problem.  If choosing what is legal or not is arbitrary ... then why not legalize murder.  Are you anti-killer?  They are an oppressed minority.  Or are you insisting that if there is any murder, they do it for free, because the poor can't afford hit men?  This is similar to making all drugs legal, including the ones that require a prescription ... and the government should give me the drugs for free, because I am too poor to buy them.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: fencerider on October 22, 2017, 11:07:02 AM
O.P.Last time I heard prostitution was legal in Nevada, as long as it is done inside a building. Maybe you should find out their rules and how it has worked out for them ;-)

Maybe you should be calling an anti-human trafficking organization Baruch. I havent seen any underage prostitutes walking around in any truck stop I’ve been in or on the street close to my house. (No my name is not John) Once you know the way they dress or act they are easy to spot in the truck stop. Fortunately there are a few organizations working to fight underage activity in the truck stops. So it happens, but it is not common.

If you’re worried about someone buggering the little boys or girls you should probably be doing raids on the houses of the 1% cause that is where you will find the most of that activity
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Hydra009 on October 22, 2017, 12:03:18 PM
Quote from: fencerider on October 22, 2017, 11:07:02 AM
O.P.Last time I heard prostitution was legal in Nevada, as long as it is done inside a building.
Only in a few counties and only certain brothels.  IIRC, illegal prostitution still dwarfs legal prostitution in Nevada.

QuoteMaybe you should find out their rules and how it has worked out for them ;-)
From what I have read, the results are kind of mixed.  While it's safer than illegal prostitution, prostitutes cannot work independently and the brothel owners control working conditions and take a large cut of the earnings (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender).  That article is circa 2007, so things might have improved since then.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: fencerider on October 22, 2017, 11:07:02 AM
O.P.Last time I heard prostitution was legal in Nevada, as long as it is done inside a building. Maybe you should find out their rules and how it has worked out for them ;-)

Maybe you should be calling an anti-human trafficking organization Baruch. I havent seen any underage prostitutes walking around in any truck stop I’ve been in or on the street close to my house. (No my name is not John) Once you know the way they dress or act they are easy to spot in the truck stop. Fortunately there are a few organizations working to fight underage activity in the truck stops. So it happens, but it is not common.

If you’re worried about someone buggering the little boys or girls you should probably be doing raids on the houses of the 1% cause that is where you will find the most of that activity

Well, if you only go with older prostitutes ... that is your problem ;-)  Human trafficking considers prostitution as part of their spectrum of human criminality.  Sometimes it is to enslave Third World people, there or brought here, so that they can make things, not do tricks.  Do you buy Apple products?  You are involved in human oppression if you buy anything outside of the US, or in the US that is unregulated.  I am typing this on an Apple product ... so I am a criminal.  And if you traffic in or bed prostitutes ... in present law ... you are a criminal too.

This isn't a theist vs atheist thing ... people love to do evil, we crave it ... and virtue signal to ourselves and each other, about how we are "good" people.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: aitm on October 22, 2017, 06:49:18 PM
If I was running a "house" the customer would be tested for STD's before entering.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Hydra009 on October 22, 2017, 08:06:42 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 22, 2017, 06:49:18 PM
If I was running a "house" the customer would be tested for STD's before entering.
Yeah.  That's one of the prostitutes' gripes.  They're required to get tested but not the customer, which makes things risky for the prostitute.  One dirty John is a potential career-ender.

But on the other hand, how many customers would be willing to submit to STD testing prior to the encounter?  (That's potential blackmail material right there) If your brothel exercises caution and tests both parties beforehand, but the brothel next door only tests the prostitute, who's bottom line is going to be better at the end of the month?

This is basically a prisoner's dilemma - the ideal scenario is all brothels exercising caution, but any brothel with one less hoop for the customer to jump through has a distinct competitive advantage, so brothels will skimp on testing out of self-interest, with less ideal big-picture consequences.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 09:52:24 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 22, 2017, 06:49:18 PM
If I was running a "house" the customer would be tested for STD's before entering.

Also check his credit ... or cash.  I don't trust any johns.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 09:53:48 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 22, 2017, 08:06:42 PM
Yeah.  That's one of the prostitutes' gripes.  They're required to get tested but not the customer, which makes things risky for the prostitute.  One dirty John is a potential career-ender.

But on the other hand, how many customers would be willing to submit to STD testing prior to the encounter?  (That's potential blackmail material right there) If your brothel exercises caution and tests both parties beforehand, but the brothel next door only tests the prostitute, who's bottom line is going to be better at the end of the month?

This is basically a prisoner's dilemma - the ideal scenario is all brothels exercising caution, but any brothel with one less hoop for the customer to jump through has a distinct competitive advantage, so brothels will skimp on testing out of self-interest, with less ideal big-picture consequences.

Not just an STD check for the johns, but also a sanity check ;-)  And if regulation can be got around ... why call for regulated prostitution, if legalism is ineffective anyway?
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 03:18:14 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 21, 2017, 08:51:37 PM
This.

It's essentially a service job.  Client wants X for money.  Worker supplies X in exchange for money.  As long as it's done in a safe, sane, and consensual way, there's no ethical reason why it shouldn't be done.

If it is truly consensual (and I doubt that in most cases), it could be legitimized. 
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 23, 2017, 10:39:24 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 03:18:14 AM
If it is truly consensual (and I doubt that in most cases), it could be legitimized.

Consent?  Even in marriage ... we don't know the "state of mind" of either party.  Consent is like finding a black cat in a room with no light.  Marriage is consensual prostitution ... by both parties.  But with some legal protections for the wife, not for the husband.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: fencerider on October 23, 2017, 11:47:08 PM
The AIDS test can be 99% accurately done in less than 2 min. The rest can be dealt with by medical treatment. STDs that are bacteria can be treated in 2 or 3 weeks. Those that are viruses I think all have vaccines.

For the sake of argument how long would it take to do all the tests, if the brothel had a lab in the backroom?ðŸ¤"

Who is going to make sure they are paying their taxes?
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Hydra009 on October 24, 2017, 12:15:11 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 03:18:14 AM
If it is truly consensual (and I doubt that in most cases), it could be legitimized.
That's the main wedge right there - well-meaning people who says it's permissible VS well-meaning people who say it's not permissible (and then there are those who say it's an affront to God, which I can safely exclude from the well-meaning category)

Certain assumptions about the nature of the industry are bandied about.  Accusations of controlling women levied at one side, which counters with accusations of exploiting women.  Narratives are crafted and anecdotes set sail, both seemingly equally convincing.  What's a decent, rational person to conclude?

Imo, the ambiguity is all the more reason for everything to be done as transparently as possible, to ensure that any shady dealings are exposed as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 24, 2017, 12:22:16 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 24, 2017, 12:15:11 AM
That's the main wedge right there - well-meaning people who says it's permissible VS well-meaning people who say it's not permissible (and then there are those who say it's an affront to God, which I can safely exclude from the well-meaning category)

Certain assumptions about the nature of the industry are bandied about.  Accusations of controlling women levied at one side, which counters with accusations of exploiting women.  Narratives are crafted and anecdotes set sail, both seemingly equally convincing.  What's a decent, rational person to conclude?

Imo, the ambiguity is all the more reason for everything to be done as transparently as possible, to ensure that any shady dealings are exposed as quickly as possible.

Yes, we will all get along, and no more criminality.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 24, 2017, 12:23:36 AM
Quote from: fencerider on October 23, 2017, 11:47:08 PM
The AIDS test can be 99% accurately done in less than 2 min. The rest can be dealt with by medical treatment. STDs that are bacteria can be treated in 2 or 3 weeks. Those that are viruses I think all have vaccines.

For the sake of argument how long would it take to do all the tests, if the brothel had a lab in the backroom?ðŸ¤"

Who is going to make sure they are paying their taxes?

Make all enterprise government enterprise, comrade.  Then IRS can collect itself.  And why do you want to tax anything?
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Mike Cl on October 24, 2017, 10:03:13 AM
Sex is such a strong biological drive and one this culture seems to put under the microscope much more so than other biological drives.  Eating is a strong biological drive as well.  And we seem to have strong regulations and social norms for it; all the bad things that can happen with sex can happen with food.  But we all recognize that eating is going to happen.  Sex is regarded as bad in a huge portion of our society.  And it is regulated to the max.  It seems to me that those regulations come from those who want to control everything we think and do--christian authorities from long ago up to now.  Legalized prostitution (even that word suggests that two people having sex is 'dirty or bad', and should be dropped from use) will in the future be considered as normal and acceptable.  Yes, not in my lifetime, but it is coming.  (Pun intended)
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Mermaid on October 24, 2017, 10:33:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 24, 2017, 10:03:13 AM
Sex is regarded as bad in a huge portion of our society.  And it is regulated to the max.  It seems to me that those regulations come from those who want to control everything we think and do--christian authorities from long ago up to now. 
At least for women. The rules are a bit different for men.

Well, straight men.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Mike Cl on October 24, 2017, 01:00:31 PM
Quote from: Mermaid on October 24, 2017, 10:33:57 AM
At least for women. The rules are a bit different for men.

Well, straight men.
Yeah, isn't that the truth!!!
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 03:25:56 AM
Quote from: fencerider on October 23, 2017, 11:47:08 PM
The AIDS test can be 99% accurately done in less than 2 min. The rest can be dealt with by medical treatment. STDs that are bacteria can be treated in 2 or 3 weeks. Those that are viruses I think all have vaccines.

For the sake of argument how long would it take to do all the tests, if the brothel had a lab in the backroom?ðŸ¤"

Who is going to make sure they are paying their taxes?

Let people do with their bodies as they chose, but not under any compulsion.  Arrest all the pimps. 

And equally, arrest all the drug-dealers and leave the addicts alone legally (but with medical help).
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Baruch on October 27, 2017, 01:44:39 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 03:25:56 AM
Let people do with their bodies as they chose, but not under any compulsion.  Arrest all the pimps. 

And equally, arrest all the drug-dealers and leave the addicts alone legally (but with medical help).

And indirect like, for a sensible suggestion.
Title: Re: Prostitution should be legalized in brothels
Post by: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 02:09:16 PM
Quote from: Baruch on October 27, 2017, 01:44:39 PM
And indirect like, for a sensible suggestion.

I'm always sensible.  Its the "likes" that don't catch up with me sometimes.  So I've been told...  LOL!