Quote
Nowhere in the world do people hold religion in such low regard as in Belgium
The Belgians are completely out of God's grace. Two out of three Belgians believe that religion does more harm than good. This is concluded from an internation study from the renowned research-bureau Ipsos. In no other Western country is that number that high. "Religion is not coming over well these last few decennia", says Rik Torfs. "And that is, for a large part, their own fault."
Relgion, its good for nothing. That is, shortly put, the Belgians attitude. The small, god-fearing Belgium is no more, Ipsos' study seems to imply. The research posed questions in 24 countries, from the United States to Argentina to Japan, about how the 21st-century human relates to religion. Barely, is the answer. In our country 68% of the questioned see religion as a force for evil. The average is 49 percent, no other country is quite so turned off by religion.
Why this is, Ipsos doesn't say. But Rik Torfs, professor in Canon Law, doesn't find it surprising at all. "Belgium is a very secularized country. We banned the influence of the church from almost all domains of society. That has its reasons. In the past there has been quite some misuse of power, many people suffered traumas because of that. Those bad feelings are passed on from generation to generation."
But make no mistake, says Patrick Loobuyck, moral-philosopher with a specialisation in religion at the University of Gent: "Belgians are no anti-catholics. But the pedophilia-schandals of the recent decennia within the Catholic Church, in combination with the terrorism inspired by Islam, lead to a general dislike of all that smells of religion."
"Religion is an ambivalent phenomenon", says Loobuyck. "It brings out the best - charity, respect - and the worst - bombings in the name of a God - in people. That has always been the case and will always remain the same. In this moment the negative feelings are gaining ground amongst people. When there are murders committed in the name of religion, or when certain religious people abuse their power, a general sense of dislike reigns. And then its no surprise that we in Belgium are at the forefront of the world in believing religion cause more harm than good."
"We even score higher than the French", says Torfs. "And that is saying something. Because if there is one people that have banned religion, its the French. But they did it so thoroughly - and so long ago - that they are clearly not bothered by it anymore." The French are eight in that line-up, with 61%.
Tolerant
"Religion is not coming over well these last few decennia", says Rik Torfs. "And that is, for a large part, their own fault. The [Catholic] Church, and other religions, have an image-problem. And no-one has the perfect solution for that. It might decrease over time, but for example the bishops might do well to communicate properly once in a while. That's not happening right now, which makes them increasingly less familiar. And that often means less loved."
Source:http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20171016_03134292
(http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20171016_03134292)
Congrats, you have a great society. Wish I could live there. But my language skills are limited.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 04:08:58 AM
Congrats, you have a great society. Wish I could live there. But my language skills are limited.
Mother of all EUs/Euros ... and they are ready to split between Walloon and Fleming ... yes, great society indeed. No reflection on Mr Obvious. I don't hold him responsible for Brussel Sprouts. I don't even hold the many D posters here responsible for Hillary.
Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 06:55:08 AM
Mother of all EUs/Euros ... and they are ready to split between Walloon and Fleming ... yes, great society indeed. No reflection on Mr Obvious. I don't hold him responsible for Brussel Sprouts. I don't even hold the many D posters here responsible for Hillary.
Bah, they've been ready to split Flanders and the Walloons ever since we became a nation.
I don't think we'll ever bother. It would be too much bother. And that, in a nutshell, is the Belgian attitude to most things.
It's a lot easier and a lot more entertaining just to laugh at your own inadequacy rather than to work on it.
Why change the world when you can just sit back and poke fun at it and yourself?
Just be careful that you don't have to worship Allah in the years to come.
Our government stomped out Sharia4Belgium, as I told you once before.
Your concerns are more properly directed at the Netherlands, Pr126.
They are still struggling with theirs.
Good for Belgium. I know very little about the country, but it's just earned a lot of respect from me. Perhaps if I ever do decide to leave this country of Bible thumping idiots, Bulgium will be at the top of my list of places to go.
Quote from: pr126 on October 18, 2017, 09:04:31 AM
Just be careful that you don't have to worship Allah in the years to come.
Yeah sharia Law... Must be a lot different than christian law. Somehow. Somewhere. Maybe.
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 18, 2017, 11:30:21 AM
Good for Belgium. I know very little about the country, but it's just earned a lot of respect from me. Perhaps if I ever do decide to leave this country of Bible thumping idiots, Bulgium will be at the top of my list of places to go.
If you ever do, let me know. Would love to meet some of you guys in person. And I know some great bars in Antwerp, Mechelen and Gent.
Sharia Law for non Muslims (https://www.politicalislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PDF-Look-Inside/Sharia_Non-Muslim_look_inside.pdf)
A short list:
QuoteUnder Sharia law:
• There is no freedom of religion
• There is no freedom of speech
• There is no freedom of thought
• There is no freedom of artistic expression
• There is no freedom of the press
• There is no equality of peoplesâ€"a non-Muslim, a Kafir, is never
equal to a Muslim
• There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of
people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males
and different laws for women and non-Muslims.
• There are no equal rights for women
• Women can be beaten
• A non-Muslim cannot bear arms
• There is no democracy, since democracy means that a non-Muslim
is equal to a Muslim
• Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah,
that must submit to Sharia
• Non-Muslims are dhimmis, second-class subjects
• All governments must be ruled by Sharia law
• Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be
changed
• There is no Golden Rule
Add to that stoning of adulterers, chopping off limbs, FGM, "Honor" killings that is not punishable, slavery, killing of unbelievers on a whim, killing gays and much more.
Quote from: pr126 on October 18, 2017, 11:56:04 AM
Sharia Law for non Muslims (https://www.politicalislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PDF-Look-Inside/Sharia_Non-Muslim_look_inside.pdf)
A short list:
Under christian law, it would be much the same. What protects us from BOTH OR EITHER is "separation of church from the State". If fundamental moslems had their way, it would be sharia law. If fundemental christians had their way, it would biblical law.
I see little difference. Both are crazed superstitious fanatics.
In Islam, there is no separation of mosque and state.
I am sure you are referring to the USA only with the bible laws.
Anywhere else Christians (even the most fanatical ) would not follow and obey the old testament laws.
If I am not mistaken, there is the bible v2.0 (New Testament) which is less bloody.
While the Quran is the immutable, unchangeable word of Allah. For all times.
Your comment is pure conjecture with no evidence to back it up. A hyperbole at best.
While it is clear to see for the whole world what Islam is capable of in the 21st century.
Quote from: pr126 on October 18, 2017, 12:13:18 PM
In Islam, there is no separation of mosque and state.
I am sure you are referring to the USA only with the bible laws.
Anywhere else Christians (even the most fanatical ) would not follow and obey the old testament laws.
If I am not mistaken, there is the bible v2.0 (New Testament) which is less bloody.
I admire your jest. Fanatical Christians cause us more harm trying (and succeeding) to enforce their religious views on us FAR MORE than fanatical moslems do. You just dont see it. Watched the anti-abortionists lately? Seen how cake-makers are free to not serve the public with their publically-advertised cakes? Noticed how public businesses can refuse to provide even birth-control? All religious crap and totally christian.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 04:08:58 AM
Congrats, you have a great society. Wish I could live there. But my language skills are limited.
If you can speak english, you should be fine. At least in Flanders. I think about 75% of The people can speak at least adequate english.
Dutch is hard to learn though.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 18, 2017, 12:33:19 PM
If you can speak english, you should be fine. At least in Flanders. I think about 75% of The people can speak at least adequate english.
Dutch is hard to learn though.
Yeah but how far can "I am stupid American" :et you? My parents visited there once, and got a cold stare until a friend told them which side of the paper currency to show...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 12:39:15 PM
Yeah but how far can "I am stupid American" :et you? My parents visited there once, and got a cold stare until a friend told them which side of the paper currency to show...
Lol, sounds weird. Was this back when we had franks? :p
On the whole, we like tourists. We got kind of a National inferiority-complex going. So we take any interest the outside world throws at us that we can get.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 18, 2017, 02:27:41 PM
Lol, sounds weird. Was this back when we had franks? :p
On the whole, we like tourists. We got kind of a National inferiority-complex going. So we take any interest the outside world throws at us that we can get.
!970s? Yeah the tourism thing makes sense. Hey, I've eaten fries with mayo.
@Mr.Obvious The article says the data is from an Ipsos poll. Is this (https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/global-advisor-views-on-religion-2017) the poll it's referencing? It involves 23 countries and Belgium is indeed chief among them with the most respondents saying that religion does more harm than good.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 18, 2017, 02:54:30 PM
@Mr.Obvious The article says the data is from an Ipsos poll. Is this (https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/global-advisor-views-on-religion-2017) the poll it's referencing? It involves 23 countries and Belgium is indeed chief among them with the most respondents saying that religion does more harm than good.
OK Ipsos seems to be legit (connected to Reuters). I had to check. Never heard of them before though.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 18, 2017, 02:54:30 PM
@Mr.Obvious The article says the data is from an Ipsos poll. Is this (https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/global-advisor-views-on-religion-2017) the poll it's referencing? It involves 23 countries and Belgium is indeed chief among them with the most respondents saying that religion does more harm than good.
I do believe that is the one.
Sadly though, it's not a completely reliable result in my opinion.
They do a good job bringing out the credibillity of the data they gathered, but gathering data solely via an online medium will, I fear, cause a misrepresentation of the populations within the countries as elder people are generally less likely to partake. And the age for respondends indeed does cut off after 64 years of age. But the rankings of the countries could very well still work as I think that in many western countries our demographics are at least compareable age-wise. Though I don't know how Japan, Brazil, Korea, ... fit in there.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 18, 2017, 08:29:00 AM
Bah, they've been ready to split Flanders and the Walloons ever since we became a nation.
I don't think we'll ever bother. It would be too much bother. And that, in a nutshell, is the Belgian attitude to most things.
It's a lot easier and a lot more entertaining just to laugh at your own inadequacy rather than to work on it.
Why change the world when you can just sit back and poke fun at it and yourself?
But Flanders (not Ned) invented Renaissance polyphony ... for Church ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFHdaCHPgo
Maybe Belgium can be great again.
Ipsos is a generally reliable poll. FiveThirtyEight grades them an A- (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/); they're unlikely to make a major methodological error.
Quote from: trdsf on October 19, 2017, 08:43:21 AM
Ipsos is a generally reliable poll. FiveThirtyEight grades them an A- (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/); they're unlikely to make a major methodological error.
Well, again, the rankings are probably fine. But if you don't add the 20% oldest people of the participating countries (in Belgium it's about 18% of the population that is over the age of 65) into the equation when it comes to religion, I do suspect you get an overrepressentation of the 'negative' answers. Over here, it seems to me, most of the elderly are more lenient to religion. They were raised with it more. Its people like my grandparents that still define themselves as christian, at least more on a relative scale.
I believe their measurements are correct. And I'm sure they can use that data as representative for the population of these countries ranging from the ages of 16 (or 18) to 65. But if you were to add the +65 age-group, I think your total scores per country would lower. So you can't say 68% of Belgians think lowly of religion. You can only say 68% of Belgians between ages 16 and 65 think lowly of religion.
Europeans are much more into political ideology ... utopias, dystopias ... ;-(
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 19, 2017, 10:07:42 AM
Well, again, the rankings are probably fine. But if you don't add the 20% oldest people of the participating countries (in Belgium it's about 18% of the population that is over the age of 65) into the equation when it comes to religion, I do suspect you get an overrepressentation of the 'negative' answers. Over here, it seems to me, most of the elderly are more lenient to religion. They were raised with it more. Its people like my grandparents that still define themselves as christian, at least more on a relative scale.
I believe their measurements are correct. And I'm sure they can use that data as representative for the population of these countries ranging from the ages of 16 (or 18) to 65. But if you were to add the +65 age-group, I think your total scores per country would lower. So you can't say 68% of Belgians think lowly of religion. You can only say 68% of Belgians between ages 16 and 65 think lowly of religion.
If that's the only range they polled, then yes, that's the correct inference to draw. However, if you know the size of the over-65 population, you
can make intelligent estimates about where the nation stands on the question. I doubt, however, that there are enough to push that 68% to under 50% even if they all expressed a low opinion of religion.
Looking it up, the over-65s make up 18% of the population, so we can peg a range. Even if
all over-65s do not have a low view of religion, the percentage drops to 55.8% -- still a significant majority. If they all have a low opinion, it jumps to 73.8%.
Either one is indicative of Belgium rapidly becoming a society separating itself from organized religion. Whether that means people are moving to deism or personal religion or atheism/agnosticism, I don't know -- probably, though, since a 2015 poll showed that 32% of Belgians identify as either atheist (14.9%) or agnostic/non-religious (17.1%) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Belgium).
Edit: My apologies, you gave the percent of over-65s and I glossed right over it in the race to make a point; I didn't need to look it up. :D
your rush to atheism may be correct. I remember in recent times that there was a rush to get Christian missionaries into godless Belgique before it was too late.
Quote from: fencerider on October 22, 2017, 03:31:06 AM
your rush to atheism may be correct. I remember in recent times that there was a rush to get Christian missionaries into godless Belgique before it was too late.
Don't worry, the Muslims take their missionary work seriously.
Quote from: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 09:49:42 AM
Don't worry, the Muslims take their missionary work seriously.
I doubt they are making many converts outside of their already-established area. The problem is the fanatics they are getting withing it.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 04:24:35 AM
I doubt they are making many converts outside of their already-established area. The problem is the fanatics they are getting withing it.
The Muslims don't convert (and neither did the Christians) by simple discussion in an erudite salon over a white wine. It is all about out breeding and out killing the present degenerates who populate W Europe. This is exactly what the upper class said 100 and 200 years ago, if the lower classes were allowed to run things.
Quote from: Baruch on October 23, 2017, 10:29:50 PM
The Muslims don't convert (and neither did the Christians) by simple discussion in an erudite salon over a white wine. It is all about out breeding and out killing the present degenerates who populate W Europe. This is exactly what the upper class said 100 and 200 years ago, if the lower classes were allowed to run things.
Somewhat my basic argument. The medieval christians were as nuts as the modern moslems. But the christians had a few more centuries to settle down and the moslems haven't yet. AND much because the Europeans messed up the moslem internal butcheries (like the medieval christians did) settling out who was where.