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So I have to admit... for the longest time, I have agreed that you cannot be racist against Muslims. But after the 100th time of hearing that line, even when race isn't even being brought up, it made me actually think about it, and you know what? Like most alt-right catch phrases, it is completely and utterly full of shit. Let's leave the fact that race doesn't even exist as a valid scientific concept, at least not for quite some time now, and just focus on the racism against the Irish.


What "race" are the Irish? Caucasian. Irish is not a race, it is a nationality and cultural identity. You cant look at someone and "know" they are Irish, unless you hold the completely wrong belief that all Irish people have redhair, freckles, and... whatever else people stereotype the Irish as having (crippling alcoholism?).

So, already the idea that racism is just about "race" has already fallen bunk, but it gets worse.


Why were people racist against the Irish? Their religion, Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism. That's right, the main source of racism towards the Irish (as well as many other groups like the Polish, Italians, etc.) fell almost purely along cultural and religious lines. So either we have to stop calling a huge amount of "racist" times and policies racist and admit that the word race really means absolutely nothing... or we have to admit that being racist against Muslims is a completely valid thing given historical context.



This does not mean criticising Muslims is racist, far from it. But when that criticism evolves into mindless fear-mongering, lying and bigotry, like alt-right supporters and politicians do, then it is historically fully accurate to call it racism. It is literally textbook racism because it is identical to the hysteria that surrounded the Irish and Italians who were coming to, "Destroy American culture any day now and enforce their foreign religion laws upon us!"... which is a textbook case of racism.


I'm tired of coddling racists and trying not to hurt their feelings. Fuck that. If you are a racist, you deserve to be called it.

If it's not a race, you can't be racist towards it on the basis of thinking it is inherently shit.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on October 13, 2017, 09:46:54 PM
If it's not a race, you can't be racist towards it on the basis of thinking it is inherently shit.

Good to see you didn't read a single word. Here, let me sound bite it for you...

Race - does not exist.
Historically - Racism against Irish (white on white racism?) was based on religious lines. So either the Irish never faced racism, or you can be racist against Muslims.

I'm aware that race is a social construct, but in some circumstances, it is necessary. The Irish are white, yes, but so are Hispanics. But Hispanics have different cultures, stereotypes, and social power. To lump them together with the dominant white race of America would oversimplify the social dynamics that exist in the country. Similarly, the Irish may have been white, but they also had visible traits to set them apart, such as red hair (which was hated for some reason), as well as a different language and culture. As for Muslims, they are not a race in any sense of the word. They are a religious group. If you want to refer to the race of people from cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, you can call them Arabs, or Middle Eastern people. Muslims, like Christians, comprise of people of every race.

When it comes to the politics of whether or not to invite people from Muslim-dominant countries into our country, I am a bit on the fence. I can see the merits in arguments on both sides. I'd say our best course of action would be to look at how other countries who have welcomed large groups of Islamic Arabs turned out. My opinion at the moment is that Islam is a war-mongering ideology by nature which drives members to attempt to dominate the nations they occupy rather than integrate, even to a greater extreme than Christianity. Allowing them to congregate and claim their own mini-societies within the USA may result in some irreversible complications. If those who come are violent and resistant to change, the police may label their areas as no-go zones, leaving the communities to police themselves the same way some Mormon communities have taken over their own local governments.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 13, 2017, 09:51:18 PM
Good to see you didn't read a single word. Here, let me sound bite it for you...

Race - does not exist.
Historically - Racism against Irish (white on white racism?) was based on religious lines. So either the Irish never faced racism, or you can be racist against Muslims.

Worse.  In Cromwell's time (the worst time for the Irish before the Famine) ... the English thought the Irish had little dog tails, because they were spawn of the devil.  But per your POV, since all religion is false, and clearly Irish don't have little dog tails anyway, the prejudice of the English at that time ... is just BS.  But yet, some of the savagery of the English against the Irish, isn't just a matter of religion, in the minds of the English.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 13, 2017, 10:47:52 PM
I'm aware that race is a social construct, but in some circumstances, it is necessary. The Irish are white, yes, but so are Hispanics. But Hispanics have different cultures, stereotypes, and social power. To lump them together with the dominant white race of America would oversimplify the social dynamics that exist in the country. Similarly, the Irish may have been white, but they also had visible traits to set them apart, such as red hair (which was hated for some reason), as well as a different language and culture. As for Muslims, they are not a race in any sense of the word. They are a religious group. If you want to refer to the race of people from cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, you can call them Arabs, or Middle Eastern people. Muslims, like Christians, comprise of people of every race.

When it comes to the politics of whether or not to invite people from Muslim-dominant countries into our country, I am a bit on the fence. I can see the merits in arguments on both sides. I'd say our best course of action would be to look at how other countries who have welcomed large groups of Islamic Arabs turned out. My opinion at the moment is that Islam is a war-mongering ideology by nature which drives members to attempt to dominate the nations they occupy rather than integrate, even to a greater extreme than Christianity. Allowing them to congregate and claim their own mini-societies within the USA may result in some irreversible complications. If those who come are violent and resistant to change, the police may label their areas as no-go zones, leaving the communities to police themselves the same way some Mormon communities have taken over their own local governments.

Race may exist, but the fact remains, people like their own kind (however they define "kind").  And they don't like those are are not of their own kind.  Trying to sell cosmopolitanism has been a losing proposition since Cyrus and Alexander tried it.  It can't even be sold to the feuding segments of Spain.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 13, 2017, 09:26:47 PMWhat "race" are the Irish? Caucasian. Irish is not a race, it is a nationality and cultural identity.

Correct.

QuoteWhy were people racist against the Irish? Their religion, Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism. That's right, the main source of racism towards the Irish (as well as many other groups like the Polish, Italians, etc.) fell almost purely along cultural and religious lines.

Correct.  While not technically racism (because Irish people are not a race but a nationality/ethnic group), it's in the same ballpark.  Bigotry, racism, it's the same basic thing.

Like the Irish, Muslims have certain stereotyped traits.  Brown skin, arab-speaking, unshaven beards, hijab, turbans, etc.

It'd be interesting to expose people to Muslims who don't fully match expectations - white-skinned Muslims, Muslims who wear western clothing, etc.  Maybe even thrown in a control Sikh or Lebanese Christian.  That way, we could get a better picture of what people are really averse to - stereotyped appearances or ideology.

If someone is truly averse only to Islamic ideology as they say, then they wouldn't be put off by brown-skinned Christians or Sikh turbans.  But if they fail the test, it's an indication of a bigotry has nothing to do with Islam.

Bigotry unfortunately happens, because we make snap judgments, based appearances ... are you Bluish or not?  Better to shoot first and ask questions later.  People famously mis-estimate risk.  If you met a Sikh in the mall, what is the chance he will pull out his knife and slash you?  All Sikh men are supposed to carry a ceremonial knife.  If you are paranoid, you will overestimate the risks in every encounter.

Quote from: Baruch on October 13, 2017, 11:56:32 PM
Race may exist, but the fact remains, people like their own kind (however they define "kind").  And they don't like those are are not of their own kind.  Trying to sell cosmopolitanism has been a losing proposition since Cyrus and Alexander tried it.  It can't even be sold to the feuding segments of Spain.

I am aware that I have certain biases in my brain. Everyone does. It is only natural that our brains make shortcuts when trying make sense of the world. It's easier, it takes less energy, but it also leads to some imperfections in our understanding. Knowing this, I do try my best to keep my prejudices in check. What I often end up with is...

(https://i.giphy.com/media/RIlMEagfdY1kk/giphy.webp)

Anyone who is not a Muslim is a bigoted racist Islamophobe deserve to die or be enslaved.
That's about 5.7 billion humans.

Quran 9:5

"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"

Allah hu Akbar!

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2017, 12:39:24 AM
Anyone who is not a Muslim is a bigoted racist Islamophobe deserve to die or be enslaved.
That's about 5.7 billion humans.

Quran 9:5

"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"

Allah hu Akbar!

Nah, it's just your racism that makes you racist. Be proud, don't let the scary Muslims steal even that from you.

Also, way to prove my point...

Well, unless you are a Muslim, you are also on the "to do" list.
As an atheist, you do not get the  Third Choice. (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/The_Third_Choice)
No matter how much you respect Islam.

QuoteThe Irish are white, yes, but so are Hispanics. But Hispanics have different cultures, stereotypes, and social power. To lump them together with the dominant white race of America would oversimplify the social dynamics that exist in the country. Similarly, the Irish may have been white, but they also had visible traits to set them apart, such as red hair (which was hated for some reason), as well as a different language and culture.

That only further goes to justify my point that racism therefor has nothing to do with race but rather cultural and socio-political identifiers. And Irish do not have redhair; only 10% of the total population has red hair. That's like me saying, "Americans have black skin".

QuoteAs for Muslims, they are not a race in any sense of the word. They are a religious group. If you want to refer to the race of people from cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, you can call them Arabs, or Middle Eastern people. Muslims, like Christians, comprise of people of every race.

Which is again going to my point; Irish people are NOT a unified people, but made up of several different ethnic groups due to their history of traders with Iberia (one of the closest group genetically to the Irish are the Basque people, particularly in Western Ireland), their time under Viking control and then their colonization by the English and the Scottish immigrants to Ireland.

To be "racist" against Irish in the historical sense is to be bigoted towards two things; their culture, and their religion (technically culture, but we will separate them for convenience sake). If Irish is a "race" then Muslim (the people we fear, not the Indonesian, Indian, etc. variety but the Middle Eastern) can easily be called a "race" because they share similar cultural backgrounds thanks to Arabian imperialism and a unified religious heritage.

When you tell a racist American "Muslim", they see the same thing you said with Irish; dark skin, dark hair, a beard and a turban instead of red hair and freckles. They aren't thinking about an Indonesian man in a business suit, a light-skinned Northern Egyptian girl in torn jeans and a rock-band t-shirt, a Turkish man sipping tea on the Ageaian as Western-dressed women walk around with no man, whatever... it's the scary Arabian descent and African descent Muslims that come to their mind, even though the Asian variety make up the majority, and the Muslim they picture makes up a small percentage of the global population.

Frankly, my point more than anything is that the word racist is truly and utterly meaningless when you break it down and is just a catch-all for the word "bigoted", inherited from an era where race was considered an actual scientific truth. If Irish people are a "race", than Muslim (as perceived in the eyes of bigots) are just as much a race because they are interpreted as a race.

This is saying nothing about criticizing Islam. By all means, do so... it has more than it's fair-share of things to be criticized. But what cant be done in a civilized society is tolerating xenophobic bigotry (a more accurate description for racism, but racism just has that punch to it and stigma/shame associated with it) and giving it a free pass just because they make good points 10% of the time. We wouldn't let that shit slide if people said the same things the alt-right says about Muslims towards Irish, Mexicans, Roman Catholics, Jews (all groups that are targets of xenophobic bigots who use rhetoric almost exactly like pr) just because they got 10% of reality in their statements... so Muslims cant be the same, regardless of if they are the "enemy" or not.

And my god, you are such a drama queen pr. Thankfully it's getting winter time, so your precious little snowflake self won't melt for a few more months yet. No one is going to arrest and execute you for being a racist old buffon you spaz, they will just point, laugh and call you on your shit. If your skin is that thin, perhaps you should take some time off the internet and stop worrying about how fragile everyone but you is...

Snowflake? You are projecting.

However, it is worth noting that Muslims are of all ethnicities from all over the planet.
Including the much-despised whites.
So it is hardly the "races" but the ideology.

But it is oh so easy to scream racist at any and all opportunity.
Racist, bigot, xenophobe, any phobias one can think of, it works every time.

Virtue signalling makes you feel superior.

Great, now you are just going to repeat what I said and think that proves you right.

You never cease to amaze.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 14, 2017, 01:42:34 AM
Great, now you are just going to repeat what I said and think that proves you right.

You never cease to amaze.

Great, now you are just going to repeat what I said and think that proves you right.

You are so predictable.

I wish you the best of luck with that.

The ideology that I am criticizing thinks of me as sub human because of not being one of them.
It is in their scriptures.
But according to you, that is racist and bigoted.


Najis  (http://islamic-dictionary.tumblr.com/post/5110237469/najis-arabic-%D9%86%D8%AC%D8%B3-are-things-or-persons)

QuoteThe following ten things are essentially najis:
Urine
Faeces
Semen
Dead body
Blood
Dog
Pig
Kafir =  Non Muslims
Alcoholic liquors
The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat.

Yes, according to me that IS bigoted!

Thankfully, most Muslims don't practice that. And by most, I mean the overwhelming majority in the world, particularly so in the West. The one's who do believe that believe the exact same about their fellow Muslims as well though, so it seems like religion isn't the important factor now, is it? If they consider fellow Muslims as sub-human to the point they would murder them for not being "Muslim enough", to the point they would found their own renegade state that commits unspeakable crimes against their brothers and sisters... then how can we sit around and pretend that it is just a matter of them vs us?

These are sick, sick people... but you want to condemn all the healthy as well, because you are a coward who has read so much about how they are out to get you that you don't realise that "they" is just a snapshot taken of a people you otherwise never see, never interact with, never know. When you meet them in the street, in the bus, at your workplace... are they anything at all like this image you have sold for year after year? No, because the overwhelming majority, particularly here, are absolutely normal people who just are trying to live their life in peace.

The root causes of Muslim violence against the West is located in history. I understand you were forced to leave what your state called a school, but you have focused so much on one area that you have ignored the bigger picture. We destabilized the Middle East. We radicalized it. We trained and armed terrorists to do our dirty work for us, and lo-and-behold a bunch of killers didn't have loyalty to us. We colonized and exploited the region for generations, some of whom who had parents who lived in Imperial territories and many living, and many in power, who fought for their independence from American and British backed puppet rulers and dictators. We have many young adults who grew up knowing only American and Allied occupation of their country. We back a country that commits human rights violations in occupied territory as they send out settlers to steal land. Politically, to expect anything other than violence in return is borderline insanity. We poked, then beat, then gassed, bombed, occupied, tortured the bees nest, and now we are getting stung. But returning hatred and violence will not solve anything, and only continue the cycle.

Even religiously, we continue to provoke them through our continued funding of the Saudi royal family and their brand of Wahabist, Orthodox Islam. You say Islam is monolithic and carved in stone, incapable of reform, and yet we have seen reform time and time again throughout it's history; the peaceful living of Iberians, Muslims and Jews in Spain, the Jewish settlements in Africa and the Middle East for hundreds of years, the Dark Ages, and so on and so forth. These were eras when moderate Islam flourished, and the Islamic world flourished. It is all cyclical; moderate Islam is defeated by politics, radical Islam is defeated by humanity. We are just watching one of the more particularly reactive ticks of the cycle, thanks to particularly momentous political events. And Christianity is playing a large part in that as well. 

Politics and religion is inseparable, even to this day in the West. How much policy has been done based on the Jewish claim to the Holy Land, how many millions of people hurt, because Christians love the romantic ideal of giving God's people their promised land? How much violence against Muslims has been committed because they are foreigners and are threatening our Christian moral way of life (even though our Christian moral way of life is exactly the same as theirs in regards to everything important; fighting non-believers, killing gays, hating women... the fun stuff)?

When you focus on religion, you focus on the academic. It is politicians, secular actions, tangible actions, that lead to violent actions. Religion can play it's role, and play it very well, but at the end of the day it is just a tool in the hands of evil people, or a tool in the hands of the good. It is through action, and being at peace instead of in constant fear is one of those actions, that we foster a community, a government, and a culture that realises the importance of it's secular actions and thinks carefully about them... rather than a culture that instantly jumps on what ever the en vogue fear is and creates a government that abuses it's people, kills scary foreigners and destroys more lives and thus continuing the cycle. That is how we got Trump, Brexit, Geerters... Bush Jr., Sadam Hussein, Gaddafi... Vietnam, Korea, the Cold War... the World Wars, and further and further back. It's all a pendulum of secular actions creating monsters who take politics, religion, their obsession with guns and violence, World of Warcraft too far.

There will always be people born who are simply sick in the head and monsters, and we must face them immediately and resoundingly. But we have to break this cycle, and that will never happen when we are constantly at each others throats. If they are so backwards, then leave them the fuck alone and let them develop their way up (or better yet, gently invest in education and higher standards of living in the area). If we stop rubbing salt in the wound, it might stop reopening, and if we stop beating the bee hive with a stick expecting the bees to suddenly stop stinging us, we might find ourselves in a lot less pain.

TL;DR.

Yes, I know the drill. #NOTALLMUSLIMS.

Here is an analogy.

I have a bowl of M&Ms. A few of them are coated with deadly poison. The rest is just fine.
Go on, take a handful.
Enjoy.

Race exists because people made it out to exist so it exists.

The Irish were assaulted by racists back then.

White people that are racist against other white people exists

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on October 14, 2017, 07:27:25 AM
Race exists because people made it out to exist so it exists.

The Irish were assaulted by racists back then.

White people that are racist against other white people exists

Special pleading says ... my oppression is real, your oppression isn't real.  This is a political system where the hierarchy is inverted, inverted totalitarianism ... where your merit is based on anti-elitism.  A peasant revolt where the peasant is defined by how much society oppresses him.  Normal totalitarianism has the "swells" at the top.  But what drives both forms is ... hate your neighbor, as an expression of self-hate.  Human society isn't based on love, but hate ... not peace, but war.  But people find this observation incredible, because they don't see people running down the street every day everywhere raping and murdering each other (though it happens some times in some places).  Our true nature? ... breaks out here and there, now and again.

But there is good news.
White people have stopped reproducing. At least here in Europe.
When there are no more white people on the planet, there will not be any racism anymore.

And that is a good thing.

Here is Sally from the DNC, helping to elect Trump.

My job is to shut white people down.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5v-n74Opyw)

Quote from: Draconic Aiur on October 14, 2017, 07:27:25 AM
Race exists because people made it out to exist so it exists.

Come now, think of that for a minute.  Does popular equate to true?  At one point, most thought the world to be flat.  Did that make it so--the world was flat because people made it out to be?  At one time most thought sickness came from demons.  Did that mean that germs did not exist because people made it out that demons existed?  I could go on--but I think you get my point.

People seem to be naturally skeptical of outsiders. Italians were mainly white too, but because some Italians were mobsters, it was assumed all were dangerous. I recall one couple was executed without evidence because, according to the judge, "They're Italian. They did something." The problem with the word "racism" is that no one ever admits to being racist. They always think they're justified somehow. Even the leader of the KKK denies being racist.

I have long wondered why racism is so ingrained and never seems to go away.  Could it be that it is part of our evolutionary success as a species?  I would imagine that when Lucy (you know, a couple of million years ago, or so) was roaming around that all outsiders had to be the enemy; that 'us vs them' was very, very real and practical, and the only way to survive?  (And only take in a 'them' every now and again to keep the gene pool fresh)  I imagine that that attitude had to be basal for the groups to survive--and it was just about ingrained from the start.  So, to change our racism, we have to change the basal attitude toward them--and that takes so very long.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 14, 2017, 12:16:08 PM
I have long wondered why racism is so ingrained and never seems to go away.  Could it be that it is part of our evolutionary success as a species?

Tribalism.  Anyone but the members of your tribe is a potential threat.  Yet despite these mutual misgivings, tribes started trading and formed alliances, greatly benefiting each other and cutting down on violence between tribes.  But always, there was distrust brewing below the surface...

A stranger may be a threat or a stranger may be an asset.  Which conclusion should we reach?  Millennia later and we still can't make up our minds.

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2017, 09:53:07 AM
But there is good news.
White people have stopped reproducing. At least here in Europe.
When there are no more white people on the planet, there will not be any racism anymore.

And that is a good thing.

Here is Sally from the DNC, helping to elect Trump.

My job is to shut white people down.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5v-n74Opyw)

Unfortunately, just because some of your ancestors may be been slaves, that doesn't make you a good person.  People aren't evil by skin color, but neither are they virtuous.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 14, 2017, 10:45:09 AM
Come now, think of that for a minute.  Does popular equate to true?  At one point, most thought the world to be flat.  Did that make it so--the world was flat because people made it out to be?  At one time most thought sickness came from demons.  Did that mean that germs did not exist because people made it out that demons existed?  I could go on--but I think you get my point.

In psychology, belief makes it true, and popular makes it cultural.  Ignore that at your peril, you Vulcan you.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 14, 2017, 12:16:08 PM
I have long wondered why racism is so ingrained and never seems to go away.  Could it be that it is part of our evolutionary success as a species?  I would imagine that when Lucy (you know, a couple of million years ago, or so) was roaming around that all outsiders had to be the enemy; that 'us vs them' was very, very real and practical, and the only way to survive?  (And only take in a 'them' every now and again to keep the gene pool fresh)  I imagine that that attitude had to be basal for the groups to survive--and it was just about ingrained from the start.  So, to change our racism, we have to change the basal attitude toward them--and that takes so very long.

it is a low level survival skill.  But cooperation with outsiders is a higher level survival skill.  This is true in chimpanzee troops too.

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2017, 05:56:35 AM
TL;DR

Correction: Too true, didn't read. I know, I know, reality hurts your little brain.

The majority of Muslims recite surat al Fatiha that demonizes jews and Christians everyday  . they do practice Islam  down to the mayor of London. Go ahead and deny it .

Every Friday they go to the mosque and recite hate inciting verses from the quran. If you like I can do a piece on what kafir means . . you know it would be very easy for me to show these folks here what gets said at the mosques.do you know why ?

How about I show them the legislations passed  by the Muslim organization of Muslim countries justice ministers? You know like death sentence for apostates . shit like that . I got plenty of shit like that   .

Some 31000 terrorist attacks since sept/11 .This wave of terrorism is Islamic terrorism and Islam is responsible  for it .

Not one of the top scholars of so called moderate al Azhar could say Isis are  NOT Muslims . but we got Obama issuing fatwa that ISIS are not Muslims . what does Obama know about Ilsam ? is he a theologian? they’re Muslims.  they site verses from the quran and justify themselves by haddith .if anyone got an issue with that by all means go talk to the myriads of Islamic  organizations and convince them Isis is not Muslim. That would be like telling them Mohammed was false prophet because Isis is doing exactly what Mohammed used to do .go ahead and deny it so I can shove the shit down your throat .If Isis is sick people because of what they did then Mohammed too was  sick people.  infact sicker  . 

Look you can’t go saying you believe in shit like the quran and teach your kids that hate message and then turn around and say you got nothing to do with it and they are not Muslims when they act on that hate message . you're guilty . 

History as cause is lame excuse. Asians such Vietnamese had it much worse. Japan got hit by the nukes .  do you see anyone of them running around with explosive belts blowing people up? Do you see Korean demonstrating . do you see Chinese demonstrating over Taiwan ? nope. They come to the west they assimilate .meanwhile 2nd and 3rd generation French Algerians still rooting for Algerian soccer team!

Colonialism excuse is bullshit . when Napoleon got to Egypt the population was a mere 2 million living in shacks terrorized into paying protection money to thugs . not even 50 years ago Saudia Arabia  was shit  land with water channel full of dead stinking animals .

Programmed robots who know nothing form nothing . That’s  all. Quack quack quack.

How about the no go zones in Europe.

Maybe I should do a piece on islamophobia .

The only coward here is you . you are coward who is too scared to act on your hate message . you are waiting for your numbers to   swell first

Hey I should do a piece on the Rohingya out on what used to be Burma  . once Muslims hit 20 % expect calls for separation  and implementation of sharia. They are already calling for sharia  in Europe and Canada . yeah lets have apostate killing laws. Lets trample on the woman . lets cut their clits . yeah yeah .

do it like that pr126 . understand they want to cut the women clit . its  called FGM. we can't let that shit happen. do you want a woman with her clit cut ? of course not . neither do I

listen Muslims and their supporters can get aggressive . be twice as aggressive . prepare for battle . its winner take all deal.


Thank you for listening 

Quote from: Ibn Khaldun on October 14, 2017, 03:00:40 PMHow about the no go zones in Europe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/world/europe/fox-news-apologizes-for-false-claims-of-muslim-only-areas-in-england-and-france.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/nogozones.asp

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/06/05/fox-host-pushes-raids-mosques-based-no-go-zone-previously-caused-network-international-embarrassment/216790

May not like the fact of the matter, but the ideology of Islam is deeply engrained into the Muslim culture and psyche, and only a small percentage of people from the middle east have abandoned it. And Islam preaches hatred, violence, dehumanization, genocide, and those engrained in the culture lap it's 'teachings' without question.

Show me a story of a Muslim man or woman who came out gay to their parents where the parents accepted him/her, did you find one, maybe two? Now I'll show you hundreds of stories where the parents beat, abuse, abandon, or even kill the son/daughter

You can pretend the two, the people and the ideology, aren't mutually exclusive, but they simply are, and unlike Christianity and white people, who have broke off from its theocracy enough to separate the two, Muslims just aren't at that level yet.

My god Ibn, there is so much wrong with your post I don't even know where to begin. And frankly, I don't want to spend the next 10 hours writing full answers, so let's just go with short answers since yall just put your hands over your eyes and ignore reality anyways...

Quotethey do practice Islam  down to the mayor of London. Go ahead and deny it .

Never denied, said they don't practice Orthodox Islam.

QuoteEvery Friday they go to the mosque and recite hate inciting verses from the quran. If you like I can do a piece on what kafir means . . you know it would be very easy for me to show these folks here what gets said at the mosques.do you know why ?

Yet again, they don't practice their hate, which is what matters at the end of the day. If they cherry pick, that is fine by me.

QuoteSome 31000 terrorist attacks since sept/11 .This wave of terrorism is Islamic terrorism and Islam is responsible  for it .

Only responsible if you want to pretend politics doesn't cause violence. Historically wrong as fuck, but if you want to believe that you are a big boy and are free to do so.

QuoteHistory as cause is lame excuse. Asians such Vietnamese had it much worse. Japan got hit by the nukes .  do you see anyone of them running around with explosive belts blowing people up? Do you see Korean demonstrating . do you see Chinese demonstrating over Taiwan ?

"History is a lame excuse". Right, actions don't cause reactions.

Vietnamese had it worse? Okay... how many years ago? How many years did it take Vietnam to recover? I'll give you a hint; it took quite a long time.

Japan got hit by nukes... and then we spent massive amounts of time, effort and money rebuilding their country and promoting peaceful relationships rather than continuing violence with them.

Korea? Really? You want to use Korea as an example of everything ending up okay? Have you heard of this country, it's kinda obscure but maybe you have, North Korea?

And finally implying Taiwan doesn't have beef with China. Literally everything you said was just... wrong. That's not just sad, that is impressive.

QuoteColonialism excuse is bullshit . when Napoleon got to Egypt the population was a mere 2 million living in shacks terrorized into paying protection money to thugs . not even 50 years ago Saudia Arabia  was shit  land with water channel full of dead stinking animals .

Cool, now we are going to pull the, "Colonialism was GOOD for them!" excuse.

Let me ask you something; how many of those 2 millions living in shacks were coming to Europe and killing people? How many Saudis were funding terrorist groups across the Middle East?

Oh, right... this violence towards us wasn't an issue until we poked our noses in. Hmmm...

QuoteHow about the no go zones in Europe.

Lies that even the alt-right has stopped using because they just don't exist.

QuoteThe only coward here is you . you are coward who is too scared to act on your hate message . you are waiting for your numbers to   swell first

You're a moron.

QuoteThank you for listening 

No problem. A shame I cant expect the same courtesy from your lot.

What is orthodox islam ? what are you talking about ?

Practice Islam means kill non Muslims . wait till I have time to do a piece on kafir and you will see what I’m talking about

See that’s  what I’m saying . quack quack . got no idea what Islam is and he wants to talk about Islam and as result talks nonesense

Lets  go , admit it. Mohammed was a sick fuck. I haven’t got all day .Say it . the man Muslims hold as role model to be followed  was a sick fuck.

c'mon lets  go. Mohammed was a monster . say it

Quote from: Ibn Khaldun on October 14, 2017, 04:12:31 PM

Lets  go , admit it. Mohammed was a sick fuck. I haven’t got all day .Say it . the man Muslims hold as role model to be followed  was a sick fuck.

It's not actually about Mohammed with Shiranu, it's about how he thinks you can simply separate Islam from brown skinned people from the middle east and by doing so automaticly making any objection to people from that region a racist thing.

That fact this is an atheist forum and anyone here who questions theocracy and what it makes people into, the Islam part of that always seems far less under scrutiny then any other religion ironically

"...it's about how he thinks you can simply separate Islam from brown skinned people from the middle east and by doing so automaticly making any objection to people from that region a racist thing. "

That is literally the opposite of what I said, but sure, why not.

Quote from: Ibn Khaldun on October 14, 2017, 04:14:51 PM
c'mon lets  go. Mohammed was a monster . say it

Mohammad was a brilliant politician and a sick, terrible human being. Never have I said otherwise.

Now, say it with me; actions have reactions. History is not just words in a book, it is the foundation of our reality, so to say that history and actions are not responsible for their consequences is just wrong. So when you say that atrocities committed against people, spanning from a hundred plus years ago to within my life time, are completely irrelevant to why those people are violent towards us now is simply ludicrous.

QuotePractice Islam means kill non Muslims .

Then there are very, very, very, VERY few Muslims in the world (particularly in the West) and this hysteria is for nothing.


I don't care about Islam, I care about people. How do people behave? The simple truth is like any other ideological follower, the overwhelming majority of Muslims cherry-pick their religion to suit their agendas, very few practice Orthodox Islam (to explain, Orthodox Islam is following the Qu'ran completely and literally.). I know Muslims who drink, I know Muslims who have had premarital sex, I know Muslims who curse, who enjoy music, who don't kill non-Muslims. Frankly, I don't have any right to tell them they aren't "True Muslims" because frankly they haven't done shit to me and I am quite happy with them not following the violent parts of their ideology.



At the end of the day, even most of the radical Muslims do what they do as a mix of political and religious religions, but their trainers and their masters were fully political puppets. So to blame Islam for the shift back to Orthodoxy is to ignore history and reality, and that reality is that we have intentionally promoted violent men to positions of power and created negative situations that lead people to extremism... and by putting all the blame on Islam, we are trying to wash all the blood of our hands. The problem with that is that reality then gets lost, and we assume that only one side has blame when really it is shitty upper-class people on both sides who want to make life terrible for everyone bellow them.

If that is your goal, then by all means say you feel no guilt... but don't then try to actively continue the cycle of violence. If you are going to not take responsibility for your government and societies actions, then just leave the debate... don't sit on the side lines trying to provoke both sides into fighting more. It is both cowardly and hateful, neither of which do humanity an inch of good.

Ibn - I simply don't accept that Al Fatihah incites violence by itself, anymore than the Shema or the Our Father does.  When we tried to discuss the Al Fatihah before you ran away from it.

Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2017, 08:43:30 PM
Ibn - I simply don't accept that Al Fatihah incites violence by itself, anymore than the Shema or the Our Father does.  When we tried to discuss the Al Fatihah before you ran away from it.

It may not incite violence, but 17 times daily it re-enforces the Muslim belief that Christians and Jews are lesser people than Muslims.

But that is not bigotry because it is uttered by Muslims.
Quran 8:55
Yusuf Ali: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

And here is Quran 3:110

You are now the best people brought forth for (the guidance and reform of) mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah.

This is not supremacist, because it is uttered by Muslims

How can Muslims be bigoted? That is absurd.

QuoteHow can Muslims be bigoted? That is absurd.

You and Munch are literally the only people I know who say stupid shit like this. I haven't even seen mainstream alt-right sink to that level of stupidity.

Congrats, I guess?


Edit: That's not to say people on either side don't say it, just that they don't say it on any relevant media platform or any niche platform I visit (which is admittedly only this and youtube, and don't really watch left or right videos on youtube... mostly just cars and music...)

QuoteYou and Munch are literally the only people I know who say stupid shit like this. I haven't even seen mainstream alt-right sink to that level of stupidity.

Shiranu, you have created your own reality which has little to do with the real world.

Said without a hint of irony.

*slow clap intensifies*

Quote from: pr126 on October 15, 2017, 12:21:32 AM
Shiranu, you have created your own reality which has little to do with the real world.

On the contrary.  There is no level the Alt-Right will not sink to. 

Quote from: Cavebear on October 15, 2017, 12:30:24 AM
On the contrary.  There is no level the Alt-Right will not sink to. 

Voting Trump even. How gross.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 15, 2017, 12:30:24 AM
On the contrary.  There is no level the Alt-Right will not sink to.

Per the D party, they are double-plus-un-good.

Quote from: pr126 on October 14, 2017, 11:37:44 PM
It may not incite violence, but 17 times daily it re-enforces the Muslim belief that Christians and Jews are lesser people than Muslims.

But that is not bigotry because it is uttered by Muslims.
Quran 8:55
Yusuf Ali: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

And here is Quran 3:110

You are now the best people brought forth for (the guidance and reform of) mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah.

This is not supremacist, because it is uttered by Muslims

How can Muslims be bigoted? That is absurd.

Yes ... politically, Muslims aren't liberal democrats.  Democrats (the party) today aren't liberal or democratic either.  They are the California equivalent of the N Korea.  If N Korea nuked California, I am sure that the Great Student Democratic Party of California would be out there fighting for Comrade Kim.

On the other hand, that statement is simply tribalism.  You are being inconsistent, if you really oppose that statement in isolation ... then you are part of the New World Order.  And it wasn't from the Al Fatihah ... but from the rest of the Quran.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 13, 2017, 09:51:18 PM
Good to see you didn't read a single word. Here, let me sound bite it for you...

Race - does not exist.
Historically - Racism against Irish (white on white racism?) was based on religious lines. So either the Irish never faced racism, or you can be racist against Muslims.

What I said would imply that I believe the Irish never faced racism on the basis of being Irish, yes.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on October 15, 2017, 03:16:47 AM
What I said would imply that I believe the Irish never faced racism on the basis of being Irish, yes.

Then if what we called Irish wasn't racism, it was xenophobic bigotry, the same thing Muslims face.

In common speak, that is called racism. Is it accurate? Not really. Is it the word we use as a society? Yeah.

The ultimate point is that Muslims face the same fear mongering and bigotry that previous minorities did, and you either have to admit that racism has no real meaning or that it is a very nebulous word and that Muslims can be a race.

So far, the only response from the people it pertains to is finding any and every excuse they can find that doesn't actually address the topic, which is simply par for the course at this point. The irony was that only one of them was being called racist, it wasn't even aimed at others who still took enough offense to it to start making excuses...

Shiarnu, the reason why Muslims do not practice Islam is because they can’t .if they try to practice Islam the west will kick their ass .times have changed . non Muslims countries are stronger . Conquest is not possible. Add to that great pressure is exercised by the west to force Muslims countries not to practice Islam . more and more of Islamic sharia  are being suspended by Muslim majority countries .they’re working on school curriculum and media and shit . you know like they are trying to alter  that historical narrative that was instilled in your mind . .

Hush with the quran and Islam. You don’t know jackshit about that . just quack quack quack. There is nothing called orthodox Islam. Stop making up crap.

Listen ,  I understand your way of thinking. Its program except I program myself as I deem fit . .  I’m on opposite sides to you .  I’ve lots  of KKK friends . white supremacists are great guys  . peaceful lot . The few ones who kill black folks are the exception . and they did  it because black folks did something bad to them in the past .one of them said to me he killed black guy because black folks killed his great great grandfather from ten thousand years ago  .its just like you said its historical grievance . its politics.The KKK are the victims here . my poor KKK

Hey when I was in America I hanged  out with white supremacists  bikers. What happened the judge ordered me to do community hours and take shit they call anger management classes .i did it at this jewish senior citizens home . I got to know this extremely foul mouthed ex lawyer  Jewish elderly lady that everyone hated.  I was awed by the torrents of cusses she hurled at people. I used to ask her to repeat them to me so I can write them down and memorize them. Can you cuss me out some please , I would ask her . She laughed .We ended up being great friends. She had  pills the doc used to give her and she didn’t like to use them. So I took them and sold them to a white biker and split the money with her . . this is how I got to know the white bikers. They got to like me  and see me as one of them even though I really didn’t look like them . they used to let me speak . what I did I took all the hate shit in islam and switched it to black.  instead of Christian or Jew or non Muslims I switched those terms  to black people .they loved that shit .

Other times I related to them Islamic history as given by Islamic books . you know all that shit Muslims did to white people in Spain and how the Caliph ordered 3000 white virgins and how they killed white knights and piled their heads high enough to make a mountain . you know shit like that . they loved that shit .one of  them thanked me profusely  for educating  the young white kids . I played a very positive role . he was smart guy . he knew what I was doing. I was reforming the KKK.

Hey did you know north Africa was actually European? It was . to this day there’re  indigenous white tribes in Africa. Black  folks did not manage to exterminate all the white people in Africa. See I’m of the opinion white folks should come and take their lands back from black people. occupied white folks  not condone that shit . give white folks their lands back. its betetr anyways. they come build shit and make place nice.

In Arabia we took all the “black” people and put them on the coast far away from us .we tried to be nice to them but every time we did they attacked us and talked shit about the past , that  we did this and that to them and that we call them Abeed ( slaves) and shit . So we send them to live on the coast and we told them we see anyone of you come close to us we cut off his head. We told them if they want to play that whining shit and victim mentality shit in order to get over its not happening .

I don't care about white supremacy, I care about people. How do people behave? The simple truth is like any other ideological follower, the overwhelming majority of white racists  cherry-pick their religion to suit their agendas, very few practice orthodox racism  (to explain, Orthodox racism  is following  white supremacy  completely and literally.). I know KKK who drink, I know KKK who have had premarital sex, I know KKK who curse, who enjoy music, who don't kill non whites . Frankly, I don't have any right to tell them they aren't "True supremacists “  because frankly they haven't done shit to me and I am quite happy with them not following the violent parts of their ideology..   

My advice to white people, keep your racists . you’re going to need them. Fund the KKK and the white supremacists. In any given society you need to balance shit . they have their extremists you have to have yours to balance shit out  .
you must also reform the KKK . they are little bit behind the times. Most of my work with the KKK was aimed at reforming them so as to make them fit the times .

its not really about color anyways because if it was the KKK wouldn’t have liked me . I asked them about that and they said to me “you’re not one of them” .  they speak about the hate black people in America harbor for white people. Its true . black people generally speaking hate white people in America. How do I know ? because I  moved freely in both groups and I talked to them. I can pass for either group. I could travel in white no go zones in America by which I mean the ghetto . And light skin black women liked me . one said to me she wanted a white guy who was not white at the same time.  white guy who is not white .  you see what I’m saying ? 

its high time for Nazis to reform. Jew jew jew. That shit is pointless. Nazis have to update themselves . that shit in order to be effected you gonna have to divest their minds from their socialistic bent. See those KKK, white supremacists and Nazis are actually socialistic  movements . basically poor havenot whites trying to get piece of the pie . .what happened because of the constant onslaught some turned leftist. This trend has to be stopped . but basically when you are looking at a leftist you’re basically looking at a Nazi who changed sides . instead of homing in one non whites he is homing in on whites but the socialism remains. And often times  it works like in a hostage situation. The hostages start to sympathize with their captors.
Do like shiranu . follow his/her  formula . the shit he is actually saying is a  program instilled in his/her head.  Just switch it around. Its fun. Its like a game . play the game. I like games. Don’t you? Okay then. And its got all the shit. love ,sex and violence. Learn to live to the brim . exciting life . choose it. At least think about it . life would be so boring otherwise.

Psssst shiranu, I can move all over . white black Muslim  non Muslim, the whole gambit. you can't tell. You can’t hide from me . I  love black women too. soul food and shit . love that shit .  fried chicken , barbecue ribs , grits, corn bread pudding . yummies. Don’t be hiding them black women from me boy. I want them . they are mine .they belong with me. tell them I'm coming for them . I don't to see one black guy around. you hear me ?  you better  .

When I have time I will do a piece on Kafir . frankly tedious shit . Islam the culture of hate and death. 

Ibn - It is all psychology ... nobody hates smokers like an ex-smoker ;-)  Maybe you really are ex-Muslim.  You have gone from retard to full-retard, after having been a dual-culture person, otherwise you would be living in the City of the Dead in Cairo, with no opportunity for change.  Change is good.  But you should "get" Shiranu ... Shiranu is a self-hating Westerner.  You were a self-hating MEasterner.  He needs to get the hell out of the US.  You have gotten the hell out of Egypt.  You are the same sort of guy, but perhaps Shiranu is younger.  People who are self-hating, hate their home country too, because it is the external part of their identity.  If you were focused on your internal being, you could off yourselves (please don't).  Focused on your external being ... you want to kill your family, kill your country, kill humanity. 

Autism is a spectrum disorder ... Caligula wanted all of humanity to have one neck, the easier to exterminate them.  Everyone I think has these feelings, but for some people their condition is much more serious.  It was because of feelings like this, my ancestors left Europe for the N America ... to get the hell out of a hated Europe.  If Europe was good to them (in their own POV) then they would have stayed, partied on.  The fact is, people are annoying to themselves and to each other, but we respond to this annoyance differently.  In the big picture however, if you aren't happy with yourself, you will not be happy with anyone else.  And killing part of the external "you" is dealing with a symptom, not a cause ... so it won't work in the long run.  You have to deal with the cause ... there ... inside of you.  Murder is just suicide externalized ... that is what killing and war are all about.  People with self-love, and good personal boundaries, at least make happy introverts.  Self-hate and poor personal boundaries, and you are some flavor of jihadi.

Shiranu - you are like someone allergic to peanuts working in a peanut factory ;-(  Hence your need for a total change of scenery, or a monastery, so you can deal with your internal stuff.

I still think it is more accurate to call them Arabs than Muslims. I don't think Americans have the same fear of Muslims who aren't brown. It's the ones who look like they came from the Middle East who make people nervous. Being Muslim isn't like being Jewish, where you can be Jewish whether or not you believe in gods.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 15, 2017, 11:24:25 AM
I still think it is more accurate to call them Arabs than Muslims. I don't think Americans have the same fear of Muslims who aren't brown. It's the ones who look like they came from the Middle East who make people nervous. Being Muslim isn't like being Jewish, where you can be Jewish whether or not you believe in gods.

True, but sad.  I started Egyptian Arabic on Friday ... the lady teacher is from Egypt.  Her half-Arab, half-African appearance is really beautiful.  She is too young and recently married, otherwise, if I were Ibn, I would have desirous thoughts.  I remember back then, when I was 16, and the new English teacher was maybe 22 ... she was an object of desire by all the boys ;-)  And many more African people, are really handsome or beautiful.  Young people usually are ... us old farts not so much ;-(

Yes, Jews are of mixed race ... and most are cultural, not religious.  Increasingly Christians are like that ... they have always been mixed race (even when they were all Jewish).  But how steady is "cultural" Judaism or Christianity?  Can one remain a "cultural" Muslim for long in the lands of kafirs?  Hindus feel that way ... they think they are permanently loosing their best and brightest to California.  You can't be a proper Hindu, outside of India.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 15, 2017, 11:24:25 AM
I still think it is more accurate to call them Arabs than Muslims. I don't think Americans have the same fear of Muslims who aren't brown. It's the ones who look like they came from the Middle East who make people nervous.

Yeah, and that's so weird because arab and muslim are not interchangeable.  In fact, American arabs are more likely to be Christian than Muslim. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Americans#Religious_background)

I guess it makes a strange sort of sense to be leery of arabs given 9/11 and subsequent war with predominantly arab Iraq and tensions with many surrounding countries.  But we went down that road in WWII and you'd think we would've learned our lesson - people who look like the enemy aren't necessarily the enemy.  In fact, they're a potential asset (translators, informants, etc)

Also, Americans (this might apply to other countries as well) are largely unaware of successful, famous people in their midst who do have an arab background.  Steve Jobs, Helen Thomas, Frank Zappa, Jamie Farr, etc.  The USA wouldn't be the same without them.

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 15, 2017, 12:13:59 PM
Yeah, and that's so weird because arab and muslim are not interchangeable.  In fact, American arabs are more likely to be Christian than Muslim. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Americans#Religious_background)

I guess it makes a strange sort of sense to be leery of arabs given 9/11 and subsequent war with predominantly arab Iraq and tensions with many surrounding countries.  But we went down that road in WWII and you'd think we would've learned our lesson - people who look like the enemy aren't necessarily the enemy.  In fact, they're a potential asset (translators, informants, etc)

Also, Americans (this might apply to other countries as well) are largely unaware of successful, famous people in their midst who do have an arab background.  Steve Jobs, Helen Thomas, Frank Zappa, Jamie Farr, etc.  The USA wouldn't be the same without them.

Gen Omar Bradley.  And beware of German-Americans in WW II, like Eisenhower ;-p

@ munch . didn’t notice your response .

What you guys are doing is great but you need to carry it further , that is form an npo and get engaged  in  litigation . that’s the  place the battle is being conducted

This thread here  is going to boil down , for one thing that is , to US supreme court findings bearing on petitions brought by the Southern poverty Law center against the KKK .I say If it is legal  to call non Muslims Kuffar ( plural of kafir ) which is racist and discriminative  technical term inciting hate precipitating in action that does harm to non Muslims then the Supreme court had better rescind those findings because they single out the KKK adding that  the KKK is actually a minority .

If it is okay to say Kafir then by the same token the KKK should be accorded the right to call black people niggers publicly , school and all and invest it  in speech such as to target black people and if such speech results in physical harm done to  them  then  black people should have no recourse to the law to block such speech  or seek civil compensation just as non Muslims do not have recourse to the law to block Islamic hate speech delivered constantly at the mosques. . . .

If  the supreme court refuses to see reason the KKK can and will employ people  to alter their speech in such a way as to circumvent the supreme court findings and empower them with speech with a much devastating and dangerous twist than Islam. Believe me when I tell you it can be done .Just make a KKK quran . make them a haddith too . no ra

I’m not KKK and I do not subscribe to their views . I’m not a racist .   . Cair and other Islamic org funded by oil gulf states plus the left  wanna play games and advantage themselves , doesn’t matter if non Muslims get butchered in those terrorist attacks by Muslims.  .  trust me when I say   its not that difficult to alter KKK and white supremacists speech and return the favor sort of shit . Lets then see  about that oh oh Muslims are okay, they don’t do shit to me. That oh oh can used to manufacturer another oh oh so that non Muslims can sit back and say oh oh , the KKK are okay, they don’t do shit to me .

You have no idea the sort of  prophets  that KKK has .  I talked to them . I observed them . I’m amazed. Raw material like I have never seen .one  can work with that shit . all they need is a Semite prophet , a role model. They need the chosen people to lead them. . 

One time I  got news about very respectable high esteemed white supremacist  . They put him  in military jail. Hey the system can be so unjust you know . He  smashed a guy head on the wall and pulled out his eyes and ate them. It was pre arranged . the guards made an excuse to put them in the same cell. They were unhappy with the guy who got his eyes eaten, so they put them together on the pretext of cleaning the other cell. Ate the guy eye ,  no salt and pepper to go with it . how about that ? carnivore.

Or they agree we do something about the quran hate speech and reform that shit like for example discard the medina part to start with . ban shit like Kafir . its hate speech .

. I don’t hate any people, or country .  I don’t have it in me . I find that I’m focused on women  and they are everywhere  . I think about that most of the time. Specially  those times on the battle field . what  can one think about except that . it doesn’t smell good out there . rotten corpses and smell of blood and rusty and molten metal .when metal heats up it produces a smell. Burning Oil and diesel and  nature , Insects and bugs  .and the humidity makes the clothe stick on you and the sweat  and you sleep on shit .  you have no idea how bad corpses stink . women smell nice , soft to the touch and shit . just don’t poke them with your finger if they don’t know you. It startles them  . you have to know them and make them like you first. I usually can provided I don’t talk too much .but now I have a wife. She can have the house because the house is made of rooms and rooms are holes . the house is the hole. Belongs with the woman . The church has tower . that she can’t have  . because the tower is the penis . it jots out into the sky to say high to god . . she can have the house but not the church.

Syrians and Lebanese are Caucasians for the most parts. Not Arabs

Semites  of north and South Arabia .  Four  migration waves /invasion waves. The first wave conquered the  Sumerians /Babylon.  The Aramaic ( barouch guys) wave was the most violent , scourge of the land . Last wave from south Arabia ,Islam. That wave was wiped and exterminated by the Abbasids leaving small batches in the desert and those in spain. Minor waves earlier to north Ethiopia  and red sea eastern Africa areas and central African region .

Saudia Arabia rallied the Arabaized Africans , the janjaweed (machine gun on a horse) mass murderers of indigenous  Africans in the fight with Yemenis. Those make Isis look like child play. the Janjaweed are very special lot . Very ancient stuff really.semetic to boot.  They wanted the fertile plains of indigenous Africans . when they come upon an African village , they level the aircraft gun to point at the grass hut and fire away . baaaaaam . shit explodes in ball of fire . they got them on tape making a big fire and throwing African babies and kids into it .America has some of them on wanted list for war crimes.

I was in action   against them before that  as part of a joint venture Israeli  and American evangelists ,we faced them off with from further south indigenous animist pseudo Christian African pastoral herds men , just as violent and hardier . The African herds men routed the janjaweed . they slaughtered them .  then Iran sent 8 thousand revolutionary guards  and jihadist from middle east joined them .Saudia took care of the funding and shit .  no issue.  Their bones litter the low savanna plains . America stepped in and stopped the shit . so the janjaweed turned around and attacked Africans in the west , mostly farm based people. Not good fighting material. they butchered them  But further south west you got hardy African herds men. Islamist  from chad tried to take over but the African herds men fought back and exacted heavy toll and islamist backed off from the onslaught  while whinning that Africans committed atrocities against them .cry babies .

Recent history is so bloodthirsty, I laugh when people claim "progress".

Quote from: Baruch on October 16, 2017, 07:13:34 PM
Recent history is so bloodthirsty, I laugh when people claim "progress".

Perhaps you'd rather live in a time where offending someone meant having a duel to the death, when simply belonging to the wrong group meant death by hanging. Or perhaps instead of people watching make believe violence on TV, you'd prefer to live in a time when people watched others fight to the death for entertainment. Maybe you'd like to go back further, when other tribes could come and kill, rape, and plunder yours just because their tribe was bigger and stronger.

Quote from: Baruch on October 16, 2017, 07:13:34 PM
Recent history is so bloodthirsty, I laugh when people claim "progress".

I'd love to invent a time machine and take you to 16th century London, then.  You'd beg me to take you back to the future before long.

Even simple things like access to clean drinking water and food, housing, and a basic education has changed tremendously since those times.

Go back to 16th Century London?  As far as that? No need to go that far.

Try  7th July 2005  (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/7_July_2005_London_bombings)

Quote from: pr126 on October 17, 2017, 12:41:32 PM
Go back to 16th Century London?  As far as that? No need to go that far.

Try  7th July 2005  (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/7_July_2005_London_bombings)

Even with terrorist attacks, we're a lot safer now than we ever have been. The chances of being killed by extremists are extremely low.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 17, 2017, 12:55:32 PM
Even with terrorist attacks, we're a lot safer now than we ever have been. The chances of being killed by extremists are extremely low.

True, but the whole Terrorism and Russia Did It narratives serve the Deep State.  We must ... must serve the Deep State.  If we don't they will have their MK Ultra assets start throwing nukes ;-(

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 17, 2017, 12:27:41 PM
I'd love to invent a time machine and take you to 16th century London, then.  You'd beg me to take you back to the future before long.

Even simple things like access to clean drinking water and food, housing, and a basic education has changed tremendously since those times.

You make your fantasy football choices.  I make mine (to not fantasize).  I see what is, not what was, not what will be.  The present is shit.

They are not extremist.
They are devout, practicing the religion as commanded by Allah.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 17, 2017, 12:16:17 PM
Perhaps you'd rather live in a time where offending someone meant having a duel to the death, when simply belonging to the wrong group meant death by hanging. Or perhaps instead of people watching make believe violence on TV, you'd prefer to live in a time when people watched others fight to the death for entertainment. Maybe you'd like to go back further, when other tribes could come and kill, rape, and plunder yours just because their tribe was bigger and stronger.

If I were a puritan, and I am not ... I would want the human race extinct, at the earliest possible opportunity, to protect the rest of the Alpha Quadrant.  Channelling Quark ... just saying ...

We are high-tech apes, high-tech tribesman ... technology doesn't make you superior, it makes you a better armed savage.

Quote from: pr126 on October 17, 2017, 12:59:10 PM
They are not extremist.
They are devout, practicing the religion as commanded by Allah.

But those who focus on the outer jihad, do so ... because they have failed at the inner jihad.

QuoteThey are not extremist.
They are devout, practicing the religion as commanded by Allah.

I am saying this for a valid reason.
The propaganda goes that this has nothing to do with Islam, and the perpetrators are not real Muslims.

That is a lie.
When one reads the Quran, hadiths and the Sirat, (the Islamic trilogy) one learns that the religion is indeed commanded those acts since the religion was founded by Muhammad.

Apologist says that Islam forbids the killing of innocents.
Sounds good until you learn that unbelievers are never innocents.
They are rejecting Allah and the true religion.

Quote from: pr126 on October 17, 2017, 12:59:10 PM
They are not extremist.
They are devout, practicing the religion as commanded by Allah.

They follow the laws of the religion faithfully. That's what makes them extremists. Moderates are the ones who balance their religion with secular values.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2017, 12:58:08 PM
You make your fantasy football choices.  I make mine (to not fantasize).  I see what is, not what was, not what will be.  The present is shit.

A comparison without a basis of comparison.  How very...you.

As a generalized rule, I'd say the world is better off now than it has been in any other point in history.  It is far from perfect with suffering on huge scales; rife with injustices.  But we are inching forward in the two steps forward and one step back fashion.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2017, 01:45:38 PM
As a generalized rule, I'd say the world is better off now than it has been in any other point in history.  It is far from perfect with suffering on huge scales; rife with injustices.  But we are inching forward in the two steps forward and one step back fashion.

Too bad Trump's feet aren't as small as his hands.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2017, 12:58:08 PM
You make your fantasy football choices.  I make mine (to not fantasize).  I see what is, not what was, not what will be.  The present is shit.

You can't say things are worse now, and then say history doesn't count.

Barouch does have point . In just one country roughly four  million animist Africans were butchered by Islamist from 90s to 2005 , mostly women , children and elderly .

Did you know that the most commonly  sold books at the inception of America were law books ? its true. American favorite reading material was the law . not easy reading especially when compared with American idol.

Note there is also today a  peculiar disconnect from facts on the grounds . who would’ve  thought the nice Muslim kid from around the corner would go and blow himself   and others into smithereens  and yet you keep hearing shit like  oh oh Muslims who follow their religion faithfully are extremist and moderates are so and so and I got Muslims friends who drink and have pre material sex.

There is definite drop in Iq between today and yesterday .regress

you are less likely to get killed by Islamic terrorism than so and so. The minor  sacrifices some  do for Islamic hate and expect others to do . this is just the beginning . Europe as you know it is doomed .

Okay shirnau said stuff that are actually peddled by Alqeda and Isis and Cair. One is the bit about being cowards  , that goes with islama`phobia . the bit about history grievances and politics  that goes with crusades, Israel , colonialism  and imperialism  and converting Muslims into Christianity and preventing the establishment of Khilafa by aiding dictators ,and spain is Muslim land ,etc / those are freshmen courses at Isis college for a degree in terrorism .  .

All those need to be tackled and tackle them and trample on them I will . but not now . I got work piled up . what I will show  is that all that stuff by shirnoble  is bullshit and the reasons for Islamic terrorisms is Islam and totally different take on history  . I will do it in separate  post . this and another on islamphobia and on on Kafir and jihad . that last one will be great education for barouch . there is only one Jihad which is kill and be killed for Allah sake . 

Quote... those are freshmen courses at Isis college for a degree in terrorism .  .

What is the tuition like at Isis College? I might transfer there, this American University bullshit is driving me into debt like a mother fucker.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 17, 2017, 02:06:55 PM
Too bad Trump's feet aren't as small as his hands.

And too bad his brain is even smaller than his penis.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2017, 06:20:25 PM
And too bad his brain is even smaller than his penis.

Give me a selfie of yours compared to Pedesta or Weiner.  Democrats are pin heads with micro-penises ;-)  Republicans are just like them.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 17, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
You can't say things are worse now, and then say history doesn't count.

Materialists value things.  Idealists value ideas.  Humanitarians value humans.  There has been no improvement in humans, can't be, since by the time you get any wisdom, you die, and the kids tell grand-dad to F-off, but leave your money behind.  Ideas don't matter, material things don't matter, compared to humans.  So keep the goods, keep the ideas, kill all the useless eaters.  That is what materialists and idealists must do.  Marxism is materialism + idealism ... get it yet?

Quote from: Shiranu on October 17, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
You can't say things are worse now, and then say history doesn't count.

Good one.  Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds - Emerson

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2017, 06:41:41 PM
Give me a selfie of yours compared to Pedesta or Weiner.  Democrats are pin heads with micro-penises ;-)  Republicans are just like them.

I guess you probably have a collection of that stuff.  Sometimes you struggle to reach the inane level.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2017, 06:51:33 PM
I guess you probably have a collection of that stuff.  Sometimes you struggle to reach the inane level.

Ds can dish it out, but can't take it.  Rs just bury their enemies.  I shake my head in despair.

Quote from: Baruch on October 17, 2017, 10:51:56 PM
Ds can dish it out, but can't take it.  Rs just bury their enemies.  I shake my head in despair.

Yes, I too shake my head in despair.  I am not fond of the Ds--they constantly let down; but they are on the corporate take, so what can one expect?  The Rs are much more repugnant.  From Reagan forward, they have been disingenuous at best--and usually simply evil.  And I also shake my head at your all too often.  You love to slap a label on a person without any respect to what the person actually said.  You just seem to think your jokes are seen as being funny.   Not.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2017, 11:27:17 PM
Yes, I too shake my head in despair.  I am not fond of the Ds--they constantly let down; but they are on the corporate take, so what can one expect?  The Rs are much more repugnant.  From Reagan forward, they have been disingenuous at best--and usually simply evil.  And I also shake my head at your all too often.  You love to slap a label on a person without any respect to what the person actually said.  You just seem to think your jokes are seen as being funny.   Not.

Neither history nor politics are funny.  They are sad.  But if the Komsomol or Hitler Youth fit, march!  The only people who think independently are Independents, of course ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 06:54:09 AM
Neither history nor politics are funny.  They are sad.  But if the Komsomol or Hitler Youth fit, march!  The only people who think independently are Independents, of course ;-)

Humor is always about sad events.

 How come you guys always have time ? darn leftist got it figured out .

Objection to Muslim no go zones. No objection to white no go zones. Someone said something about brown people .  in a recent interview Obama just out of the blue said brown people will form majority in US. its got to be some study out there , a

@Shiranu .what is the plural form of your name ? you know as in  davids, johns , baouches

the problem is not the high tuition. You belong in Samsung down trodden assembly line up  in china  putting screws in their phone 18 hours per day. The reason why you have to pay tuition is because you’re not good enough.  You should be happy   someone is funding/lending  your tuition based on the illusion you could be educated ..The fool is out to disprove  natural selection. Don’feel bad though . plenty like you 


In bunch  of African countries they are replacing colleges with two year tech institutes . The exceptional belong in colleges and they don’t have to pay .the rest , the majority ,  go to trade school .

You could join Sisi . but what are they going to do with you ? probably put you on medication, strap an explosive belt around  you and send you on your way .

Isis   complained that westerners they get are the refuse of the west . basically useless matter .   they put up with it for propaganda consideration. they got to feed shit, cloteh shit, treat shit and   and try to train shit  which can’t be done because shit is useless matter to begin with . and as useless matter foreign shit has to be gathered and executed when it gets to be too much . 

The degree is not for you . not meant for you .  doesn’t matter . its all the same. Isis base are Saddam Iraqi military which has the worst combat effectiveness ratio. You need four Iraqis to match one Israeli . The Jordanian Bedouin army is the best of the lot but they got whipped by a Jewish rag tag army in 1948 and inspite of the fact  they were lead by a British general.history for you.

Tomorrow I have major shit talk and I haven’t prepared shit , mostly because my secretaries ran away from me . one said when the phone rings and the call is from me she gets an instant headache.but  when she wants money beffore i even hang up she is at front door.   I’ll go drunk. I think better sober drunk than sober sober .

Quote from: Ibn Khaldun on October 18, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
How come you guys always have time ? darn leftist got it figured out .

Objection to Muslim no go zones. No objection to white no go zones. Someone said something about brown people .  in a recent interview Obama just out of the blue said brown people will form majority in US. its got to be some study out there , a

@Shiranu .what is the plural form of your name ? you know as in  davids, johns , baouches

the problem is not the high tuition. You belong in Samsung down trodden assembly line up  in china  putting screws in their phone 18 hours per day. The reason why you have to pay tuition is because you’re not good enough.  You should be happy   someone is funding/lending  your tuition based on the illusion you could be educated ..The fool is out to disprove  natural selection. Don’feel bad though . plenty like you 


In bunch  of African countries they are replacing colleges with two year tech institutes . The exceptional belong in colleges and they don’t have to pay .the rest , the majority ,  go to trade school .

You could join Sisi . but what are they going to do with you ? probably put you on medication, strap an explosive belt around  you and send you on your way .

Isis   complained that westerners they get are the refuse of the west . basically useless matter .   they put up with it for propaganda consideration. they got to feed shit, cloteh shit, treat shit and   and try to train shit  which can’t be done because shit is useless matter to begin with . and as useless matter foreign shit has to be gathered and executed when it gets to be too much . 

The degree is not for you . not meant for you .  doesn’t matter . its all the same. Isis base are Saddam Iraqi military which has the worst combat effectiveness ratio. You need four Iraqis to match one Israeli . The Jordanian Bedouin army is the best of the lot but they got whipped by a Jewish rag tag army in 1948 and inspite of the fact  they were lead by a British general.history for you.

Tomorrow I have major shit talk and I haven’t prepared shit , mostly because my secretaries ran away from me . one said when the phone rings and the call is from me she gets an instant headache.but  when she wants money beffore i even hang up she is at front door.   I’ll go drunk. I think better sober drunk than sober sober .

And I thought BARUCH was whacko...  But I think this guy needs some friends to talk to...  I don't think I'm one of them.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 10:24:36 AM
Humor is always about sad events.

Pratfalls of sad, only if you are a prat ;-)

Quote from: Ibn Khaldun on October 18, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
How come you guys always have time ? darn leftist got it figured out .

Objection to Muslim no go zones. No objection to white no go zones. Someone said something about brown people .  in a recent interview Obama just out of the blue said brown people will form majority in US. its got to be some study out there , a

@Shiranu .what is the plural form of your name ? you know as in  davids, johns , baouches

the problem is not the high tuition. You belong in Samsung down trodden assembly line up  in china  putting screws in their phone 18 hours per day. The reason why you have to pay tuition is because you’re not good enough.  You should be happy   someone is funding/lending  your tuition based on the illusion you could be educated ..The fool is out to disprove  natural selection. Don’feel bad though . plenty like you 


In bunch  of African countries they are replacing colleges with two year tech institutes . The exceptional belong in colleges and they don’t have to pay .the rest , the majority ,  go to trade school .

You could join Sisi . but what are they going to do with you ? probably put you on medication, strap an explosive belt around  you and send you on your way .

Isis   complained that westerners they get are the refuse of the west . basically useless matter .   they put up with it for propaganda consideration. they got to feed shit, cloteh shit, treat shit and   and try to train shit  which can’t be done because shit is useless matter to begin with . and as useless matter foreign shit has to be gathered and executed when it gets to be too much . 

The degree is not for you . not meant for you .  doesn’t matter . its all the same. Isis base are Saddam Iraqi military which has the worst combat effectiveness ratio. You need four Iraqis to match one Israeli . The Jordanian Bedouin army is the best of the lot but they got whipped by a Jewish rag tag army in 1948 and inspite of the fact  they were lead by a British general.history for you.

Tomorrow I have major shit talk and I haven’t prepared shit , mostly because my secretaries ran away from me . one said when the phone rings and the call is from me she gets an instant headache.but  when she wants money beffore i even hang up she is at front door.   I’ll go drunk. I think better sober drunk than sober sober .

How realistic is this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLwsIXPN8o

We do like to say the worst about the other guy, and the best about our own guys, but it isn't so.  We are human, even the terrorists or their CIA handlers.

@cavevear. Why am I wacko? Because I’m good person? Because I loath and abhor discrimination? Because I do not condone prejudice and speak out against it ? because I’m not a hypocrite ?  because I do not post a flagrantly false account about wikipedia take on surat al fatiha like you ?  go ahead , demonize me , call me names ,  elect London mayor who recites surat al fatiha 17 times a day , crucify me like you did to Jesus, do what you may but I will never be dissuaded from fighting injustice .

Where is barouch ? come here barouch I want to talk to you. You scramble cavebear brain and others  have to deal with it. Fix that shit now .

the reason why I talk to barouch because he is my kin. Arabs and jews like to get on each other nerves .we are blood.  .with barouch I have to defer to him on account of his age . there is no victory in defeating my kin

if we’re going to have London mayor who believes and recites hate quran then I demand we have a KKK mayor with a swastika tattooed on his forehead reciting something something provided its full of hate inciting speech .. its no problem I’m sure I can come up with version of surat al fatiha to fit KKK aspirations.  Since hijiir can call himself minister of say what? then the grand wizard should be the Mufti of the KKK issuing assassination fatwas on people. It freedom of religion and worship.   
Btw , hijjir , come  , I want to talk to you . I made few phone calls to ex Muslims org based in Europe. One is Moroccan ex Muslim. He left islam and his wife who is devout Muslim demanded and got a divorce as result and she took the kids and went to live in  neighborhood in Belgium called molencheek  .he says he stopped  to go see them because salafists have threatened him and because his son has gotten to hate him because of all the Islamic drilling he has  received . his son said to him that he is a murtad deserving of being killed.  He is married to a Christian woman now and has kid from her and has decided to totally disconnect from his kids from his ex Muslim wife . something about some shit in court where he agreed to renounce his parental status to his Muslim kids in order of something something . . . 

I would like to test that claim of yours that there are no go zones in Europe. We go on tour around that place . you go ahead of me dressed as jew and wearing a shirt saying long live Israel . or if you prefer put something like that picture of Charlie abdo . Take cavebear with you preferably cross dressed with a hijab on . I will be driving behind you guys  in armored car taking pictures .

And also there this shit in the New York times  something about the mayor of Meloncheek in Belgium  talking about that neighborhood .  can you explain that ? shouldn’t be an issue for you . you know so much .

No is Islam/ no dress, no eat , no sit , no stand, no shit no talk, no think, no brains .  no go zones ? of course. Its what Islam is all about .

I call for Affirmative action to address KKK disenfranchisement for being minority. Time to have quotas to empower the KKK .
Now if you will excuse me  I have to go write a book on the white poor people whom black people killed over the centuries and Black people colonialism and imperialism impacting poor whites of north Africa, genocide in the middle east coastal regions specially and Spain all the way to France. Black people killed innocent white people and enslaved them and raped them and shit . 

on secodn thought, calling me wacko is under statements .I make General Buttnaked look like child play by comparison. Google general buttnaked of Liberia .he had his troops attack in the wee hours of the morning stripped naked wearing  women wigs , hand bag in one hand and machine gun in the other . they had  red lipstick on  too , lots of it ,like a clown. Demons from hell. Holy shit .

Africa is so much fun. You people don’t know what you’re missing . you should visit . we are much more fun than Isis . you will love it here .

General Buttnaked found Jesus . I found him too, except I’m catholic. He is out but I’m still in, recuperating 

okay I’m wacko as you say . how may  I be of assistance to you ?come  closer cavebear , closer please.

@barouch. 

Relativism is  an objective standard .

The deal now is the D not the C. decentralization is the new fab .

military junta took notes . they studied what happened to the Shah of Iran up close and they came up with  solutions . so that when the same shit was tried in egypt they were able to employ those solutions and military junta was able to come  back albeit with fresh face ,  Sisi. Essentially Obama guys where fooled by that 20 thousands army corp. they didn’t see the imbedded  multi layered shit . its like an organism operating without the parts connected . no body can see that shit . its meant not to be seen .

Same in Ethiopia . the left was so disturbed by Ethiopia rejection of the liberal paradigm resulting in some 7-9 % economic growth. . money was poured in and agitation started   followed by rioting , factories burned and shit . the decentralized shit kicked in and situation quickly brought under control . ethiopa has interesting shit  in place.

The time for central is past. Obsolete shit .

Cross cultural shit like Arab Christian is interesting , ex Muslim Christian  more interesting . cultural networking .

Look into  decentralized business model/set up.

do your  holy communion old man like you're supposed to. King David ordered the troops to fast before the battle. They went to war hungry . that is to say victory comes from god. Things have changed so much . shit goes on for days and days .   supply lines get so stretched and there is nothing to eat .pows are used to carry the ammunition in difficult vehicle  impassable terrains . its good . but then there is nothing to eat and you look at them and you know, you expect them to understand .

The Israelis and the evangelists tried to give my boys roasted chicken packaged in foil and even chocolate.  I ordered the whole shit gathered and destroyed . my troops eat only  live chicken , snakes, frogs and take anti biotic. I give them raw meat.  cut piece and dip  in the spices and  eat . replenish .   pat your belly couple of times and belch .     
   
Some African restaurants and in particular in Ethiopia serve raw meat . they give a nice chunk on a tray and knife. You slice some and you eat . its really good .fresh shit . When not fresh  it stinks so bad . But what can you do? You still have to eat.
Buddhism did a number on you. Get rid of that shit .   be the lion of Judah. We are men . for this we were born. To bear witness to the  truth. Honor your father .

You claim to know Americans, but don't know the local head of the KKK is called a Grand Dragon?  My mother's father was KKK, and his father before them.  But now they wear normal clothing, not bed sheets, but they still carry guns.  But in the South, KKK and Freemasons were close.  The KKK organization was modeled on the Freemasons, but for uneducated people.  Freemasons are educated people.  Another grandfather, he was a Shriner ... a top Freemason ... he was the grandfather I knew.  He arranged my initiation into their youth group, DeMolay ... named after the last Grand Master of the Templars.  He went to the Middle East in WW II.  Fought in Oran Algeria, then over to Tunisia.  Got a swimming lesson from the Fuhrer between Tunis and Alexandria.  Got rescued, went on to Bombay India, then on to Basra Iraq.  Army Corp of Engineers.  He helped build infrastructure there to help the British occupy Iraq during the war years.  The government there had gotten too friendly with the Axis.  Then on up to Tehran (where the Shah eventually was too friendly with the Axis), to help build infrastructure, to support the Southern supply line into the Soviet Union.  He was there during the Tehran conference.  The war ended, he came home.  Many years later he is doing his exercise walk, he gets friendly with another guy his age.  They talk over old times.  He says to the other guy "I fought for Patton" ... the other guy sheepishly says ... "I fought for Rommel".  They stopped being friends ;-(  Ululate with me over this grandfather and his family ... a real man, like all my grandfathers, even the one in the KKK.

Baruch has KKK blood in him!!

(https://i.giphy.com/media/9l1MyleFAE2JO/200.gif)
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 09:08:57 AM
.. a real man, like all my grandfathers, even the one in the KKK.

What is a 'real' man??  I would suggest that any man (or woman) who is/was in the KKK are not 'real' men.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 21, 2017, 12:11:14 PM
What is a 'real' man??  I would suggest that any man (or woman) who is/was in the KKK are not 'real' men.

Do you deny that men (on any side) who fought in the wars of the 20th century, are real men?  I know it is popular to judge people ... how is that not like the KKK?  Unless we walk a mile in their shoes ... you and I know nothing.

Quote from: Munch on October 21, 2017, 10:22:14 AM
Baruch has KKK blood in him!!

(https://i.giphy.com/media/9l1MyleFAE2JO/200.gif)
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

Blood by adoption.  But I honor all ancestors.  I don't judge them.

Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 05:33:08 PM
Do you deny that men (on any side) who fought in the wars of the 20th century, are real men?  I know it is popular to judge people ... how is that not like the KKK?  Unless we walk a mile in their shoes ... you and I know nothing.

I don't know what you define as a 'real' man.  When you define it, I may agree, I may not. 

"Unless we walk a mile in their shoes....you know nothing."  Bullshit! 

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 21, 2017, 06:38:20 PM
I don't know what you define as a 'real' man.  When you define it, I may agree, I may not. 

"Unless we walk a mile in their shoes....you know nothing."  Bullshit!

OK ... virtue signaling then?

Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 06:46:56 PM
OK ... virtue signaling then?

No--that's what you are so good at.  You like to think you are clever and can hide you constant virtue signaling in your verbose verbiage. I just asked you to explain what it is you mean.  And to call you on your wonderful old trite saying.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 21, 2017, 07:13:41 PM
No--that's what you are so good at.  You like to think you are clever and can hide you constant virtue signaling in your verbose verbiage. I just asked you to explain what it is you mean.  And to call you on your wonderful old trite saying.

Really?  I explained the reality behind my ancestors ... even if it isn't pretty.  I constantly emphasize that I am by nature a criminal (by being human) ... no morality, no ethics, no legality.  In nature, there are none of those things.  I do what I want, whether people approve or not, I say what I want, whether people approve or not.  Morality, ethics or legality have nothing to do with it.

Real men live real lives ... they don't hide under the bed.  Though I have sympathy with those who are repelled by the human condition.  We are born without being asked, we are raised by people we didn't choose, we live in a society that we didn't design ... and cope with that as best we can.  Some of us complain about that more than others ;-)

So if you had been born in the White South in 1800, do you really think you would have been a Progressive?  If you have been an African-American in the Dark South in 1800, do you think you would have fled your condition?  Those who could escape via the Underground Railroad, did so.  Those who couldn't had to bear their lot as best they could.

The idea that any people at any time and place, have rights, is American patriotic propaganda, courtesy of the ABA.  Same as mom and apple pie.  Politics is all lies.  And lying is very necessary (see Plato's Republic or Machiavelli's The Prince).  Different people in different times and places, make different decisions.  That is a fact.  Whether you or I approve (because we imagine, had it been us, we would have chosen differently) doesn't matter.

Quote from: Baruch on October 21, 2017, 09:21:33 PM
Really?  I explained the reality behind my ancestors ... even if it isn't pretty.  I constantly emphasize that I am by nature a criminal (by being human) ... no morality, no ethics, no legality.  In nature, there are none of those things.  I do what I want, whether people approve or not, I say what I want, whether people approve or not.  Morality, ethics or legality have nothing to do with it.

Real men live real lives ... they don't hide under the bed.  Though I have sympathy with those who are repelled by the human condition.  We are born without being asked, we are raised by people we didn't choose, we live in a society that we didn't design ... and cope with that as best we can.  Some of us complain about that more than others ;-)

So if you had been born in the White South in 1800, do you really think you would have been a Progressive?  If you have been an African-American in the Dark South in 1800, do you think you would have fled your condition?  Those who could escape via the Underground Railroad, did so.  Those who couldn't had to bear their lot as best they could.

The idea that any people at any time and place, have rights, is American patriotic propaganda, courtesy of the ABA.  Same as mom and apple pie.  Politics is all lies.  And lying is very necessary (see Plato's Republic or Machiavelli's The Prince).  Different people in different times and places, make different decisions.  That is a fact.  Whether you or I approve (because we imagine, had it been us, we would have chosen differently) doesn't matter.

I agree with most of what you say.  Except for me, I have to ask where change comes from, then.  If a society dictates how one thinks about morality, ethics, actions and even thoughts (and I think that is true to a huge extent), where does change come from?  One of the things a good historian is the effort they give to putting themselves into the 'shoes' of another society or era.  Hard to do.  What would I do in any other society than the one I find myself now?  Who knows.  What would I have done if I had had to go to Nam and seen combat?  Who knows (but I know that it would not have been pretty, even if I had lived). 

I don't really subscribe to 'real' men or women.  They are as they are.  All are real--or as 'real' (whatever that is) as they can be.  Even those who hide under the bed are 'real'--we don't know what is going on in their head.  So that term for me is simply meaningless. 

Change comes from "we imagine a better world or a worse world, and work to make it happen" ... except for two things "imagine a worse world" and nobody agrees on what better or worse mean (it is cultural).  History is a random walk, like a spore in water being tossed about by molecular motion.  "Progress" involves assumed ideas that are not valid ... secularly speaking ... people are individually good (false) and that there is a larger purpose (manifest destiny).

Quote from: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 09:46:41 AM
Change comes from "we imagine a better world or a worse world, and work to make it happen" ... except for two things "imagine a worse world" and nobody agrees on what better or worse mean (it is cultural).  History is a random walk, like a spore in water being tossed about by molecular motion.  "Progress" involves assumed ideas that are not valid ... secularly speaking ... people are individually good (false) and that there is a larger purpose (manifest destiny).

That is mostly double talk.  Did you invent Newspeak????

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 22, 2017, 10:05:44 AM
That is mostly double talk.  Did you invent Newspeak????

You will have to outline your point, for me to understand it.  I am more charitable to you in this case.

Do you believe in some form of Manifest Destiny (not necessarily the American version)?  Simple yes or no.

Do you believe that people, individually, as a default or natural position, are good?  Simple yes or no.

Quote from: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 03:32:10 PM
You will have to outline your point, for me to understand it.  I am more charitable to you in this case.

Do you believe in some form of Manifest Destiny (not necessarily the American version)?  Simple yes or no.

Do you believe that people, individually, as a default or natural position, are good?  Simple yes or no.

Baruch, you are often charitable; you are often obtuse.  You seem to like to use a word or phrase you do not define so you can use it in odd ways.  What do you mean by 'Manifest Destiny'?

As for the default or natural position of individuals--that is good. (And as you know there is no simple answer for this, yea or nay.)

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 22, 2017, 07:16:25 PM
Baruch, you are often charitable; you are often obtuse.  You seem to like to use a word or phrase you do not define so you can use it in odd ways.  What do you mean by 'Manifest Destiny'?

As for the default or natural position of individuals--that is good. (And as you know there is no simple answer for this, yea or nay.)

Do you believe that evolution has a purpose, which in this case is to produce pacifist atheist sentients, for example.  By Manifest Destiny ... I mean that people as a whole are directed by biology to some particular end (as opposed to random mutation).

Quote from: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 09:51:23 PM
Do you believe that evolution has a purpose, which in this case is to produce pacifist atheist sentients, for example.  By Manifest Destiny ... I mean that people as a whole are directed by biology to some particular end (as opposed to random mutation).

I find it difficult to understand why you ask that question.  I have said time and again, that nature, biology, evolution has no 'purpose'; it just is.  Humans have evolved to this point because they, as a species, been the fittest for whatever environment they found themselves in.  That does not assure the human species that the species will continue on into the future.  Random mutation is what evolution is.  If the mutation makes it easier for the organism to to survive, then that mutation will be passed on.  If not, the the mutation will stop.  No purpose in any of it.  Only you, or me, can supply purpose--if we want.  As you describe Manifest Destiny, it is a fiction.  Biology does not direct anybody to do anything. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 22, 2017, 10:33:27 PM
I find it difficult to understand why you ask that question.  I have said time and again, that nature, biology, evolution has no 'purpose'; it just is.  Humans have evolved to this point because they, as a species, been the fittest for whatever environment they found themselves in.  That does not assure the human species that the species will continue on into the future.  Random mutation is what evolution is.  If the mutation makes it easier for the organism to to survive, then that mutation will be passed on.  If not, the the mutation will stop.  No purpose in any of it.  Only you, or me, can supply purpose--if we want.  As you describe Manifest Destiny, it is a fiction.  Biology does not direct anybody to do anything.

Thank you for your patience.  I need reminding.

I don't agree that people are good by nature ... or bad by nature.  Rhetorically, I will push back against Polyanna-ism.  And I simply agree that teleology (Aristotle) is simply wrong .. so there is no inevitable anything as it is commonly used in politics or religion.  It is true, that it is highly likely, that if you hit your thumb with a hammer, it will hurt (but there are rare people who have lost feeling (Biblical leprosy)).

Quote from: Baruch on October 22, 2017, 11:38:10 PM
Thank you for your patience.  I need reminding.

I don't agree that people are good by nature ... or bad by nature.  Rhetorically, I will push back against Polyanna-ism.  And I simply agree that teleology (Aristotle) is simply wrong .. so there is no inevitable anything as it is commonly used in politics or religion.  It is true, that it is highly likely, that if you hit your thumb with a hammer, it will hurt (but there are rare people who have lost feeling (Biblical leprosy)).

I will cop to a touch of polyanna-ism (Played Polyanna quite a bit as a kid--sort of like Sorry).  But I say people are mostly and usually good simply because that is an evolutionary trait.  What the group defines as good is what is accepted by most as good as well.  So, most do good because it is good for the group.

Quote from: Ibn Khaldun on October 21, 2017, 06:11:57 AM
@cavevear. Why am I wacko? Because I’m good person? Because I loath and abhor discrimination? Because I do not condone prejudice and speak out against it ? because I’m not a hypocrite ?  because I do not post a flagrantly false account about wikipedia take on surat al fatiha like you ?  go ahead , demonize me , call me names ,  elect London mayor who recites surat al fatiha 17 times a day , crucify me like you did to Jesus, do what you may but I will never be dissuaded from fighting injustice .

Where is barouch ? come here barouch I want to talk to you. You scramble cavebear brain and others  have to deal with it. Fix that shit now .

the reason why I talk to barouch because he is my kin. Arabs and jews like to get on each other nerves .we are blood.  .with barouch I have to defer to him on account of his age . there is no victory in defeating my kin

if we’re going to have London mayor who believes and recites hate quran then I demand we have a KKK mayor with a swastika tattooed on his forehead reciting something something provided its full of hate inciting speech ..

Wow, you really have some issues.

First, you seem "whacko" by style and content.

Second, I doubt that there was a "Jesus" who was crucified.

Third, "Å«rat al-Fātiḥah (Arabic: سُÙ'ورَةُ اÙ,,Ù'فَاتِحَة‎‎) is the first chapter (surah) of the Quran. Its seven verses (ayat) are a prayer for the guidance, lordship and mercy of God."  and I think that is utter nonsense but your references to it prove your religious fanaticism.

Fourth.  You STILL can't spell "Baruch". LOL!

Fifth, Baruch doesn't scramble my brain anytime.  I understand where he is coming from and it just doesn't impress me.  I think he is almost as nuts as you are.

Cavebear wrote:

QuoteSecond, I doubt that there was a "Jesus" who was crucified.

Not crucified according to the Quran.

Quran 4:157
Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

The mis-spelling of names by Ibn Kaldhun is deliberate.
A feature, not a bug. :)

Quote from: pr126 on October 23, 2017, 04:17:17 AM
Cavebear wrote:
Not crucified according to the Quran.

Quran 4:157
Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Every religion has it's differences in the holy texts.  That the derivative quran varies from the christian one is no big surprise.

Quote from: pr126 on October 23, 2017, 04:17:17 AM
Cavebear wrote:
Not crucified according to the Quran.

Quran 4:157
Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

I wonder why Muslims would try to claim that Jesus death was just an illusion. Prophets have been killed before. That's nothing out of the ordinary. Why go out of the way to say that it only appeared that Jesus was nailed to a cross to bleed to death, that it was only an elaborate magic trick?

Why would Allah need to deceive people anyway?

I think this verse is to discredit Christianity.
If Jesus was not crucified, no resurrection, no redemption, then what is the point?

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 23, 2017, 12:07:28 AM
I will cop to a touch of polyanna-ism (Played Polyanna quite a bit as a kid--sort of like Sorry).  But I say people are mostly and usually good simply because that is an evolutionary trait.  What the group defines as good is what is accepted by most as good as well.  So, most do good because it is good for the group.

Thank you Herr Himmler (I don't mean you, just someone as group relativist as you).

Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 04:20:54 AM
Every religion has it's differences in the holy texts.  That the derivative quran varies from the christian one is no big surprise.

Islam couldn't say the truth .. that there is no Moses and no Jesus, and yet add them as predecessors to Muhammad.  A Catch 22 for them.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 23, 2017, 11:26:06 AM
I wonder why Muslims would try to claim that Jesus death was just an illusion. Prophets have been killed before. That's nothing out of the ordinary. Why go out of the way to say that it only appeared that Jesus was nailed to a cross to bleed to death, that it was only an elaborate magic trick?

The early Quran didn't even have vowels.  It was really hard to show "sarc" in Arabic.  In fact, they usually kill you for it ;-(  Consider that Allah (the author) may have been having a bit of a jibe at the ridiculous Christians of Muhammad's time, who were just functionaries of the Roman court.

Quote from: pr126 on October 23, 2017, 11:55:37 AM
Why would Allah need to deceive people anyway?

I think this verse is to discredit Christianity.
If Jesus was not crucified, no resurrection, no redemption, then what is the point?

They were turning Paul on himself.  They would never have agreed with Paul, because Paul was pro-Roman.

Quote from: Baruch on October 23, 2017, 10:25:10 PM
They were turning Paul on himself.  They would never have agreed with Paul, because Paul was pro-Roman.

Assuming there was a Paul, of course. 

Quote from: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 08:20:11 AM
Assuming there was a Paul, of course.

A Paul perhaps, but not as he was edited by the Church later.  But if we want to get completely skeptical of anything before 10/2/2017 ... I am game.

There seems, thru the edited screeds, a unified personality speaking to a set of related communities.  That is as much as one can tell.  And as long as one doesn't claim any miracles, then it is historically plausible.

Quote from: Baruch on October 27, 2017, 01:22:47 PM
A Paul perhaps, but not as he was edited by the Church later.  But if we want to get completely skeptical of anything before 10/2/2017 ... I am game.

There seems, thru the edited screeds, a unified personality speaking to a set of related communities.  That is as much as one can tell.  And as long as one doesn't claim any miracles, then it is historically plausible.

OK, that is an actual rational argument, and a good one.  Please do this more often.  You hide behind your shield too often.

Yes, while most of the New Testamenr is written way too late for the alleged Disciples to have wrii=tten them, they do hve some consistent ideas.  And I won't quibble about the inconsistencies right here.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 01:27:18 PM
OK, that is an actual rational argument, and a good one.  Please do this more often.  You hide behind your shield too often.

Yes, while most of the New Testamenr is written way too late for the alleged Disciples to have wrii=tten them, they do hve some consistent ideas.  And I won't quibble about the inconsistencies right here.

I am always happy to see you understood me.  It is unnecessary to agree with me or approve of me.

Quote from: Baruch on October 27, 2017, 01:28:32 PM
I am always happy to see you understood me.  It is unnecessary to agree with me or approve of me.

It takes some effort, but I always WAS good at solving puzzles.  And you need not worry I will tell "the others"  (hey guys, the secret meeting is at 10 EST the usual site - we're gonna talk about baruch AGAIN))

I'm sorry. I know this thread is old, but I have to reply. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make, but since the whole race/Islam topic is brought up here, I have to voice my opinion.

I think there are many of us atheists who consider ourselves aligned with the belief that political-correctness regarding Islam is a bad thing. When we criticize muslims for their beliefs, we are specifically defining the word "muslim" to mean a person who practices the religion of Islam, and are in no way attacking people of Arabic ethnicity or the like. We are trying to uphold the principle that beliefs do not automatically deserve respect, and that our western nations have built into their framework a freedom to publicly criticize beliefs. This is not racism, it's not xenophoia, and it's not hatred of any sort. Whether people want to admit it or not, there are problems with specific ideas within Islamic theology (just as there are within Christian theology) which we see muslims carry out relatively frequently. Many of these practices are in direct violation of liberal principles, and therefore cannot be tolerated from anyone, regardless of their race, religon, or nationality. It just so happens that muslims hold many of these principles and many muslims are either complicit, or activlely participate in their practice. I'm referring of course to Jihadism/terrosism, Islamism, compulsory subjugation of women, female genital mutilation, etc... We also of course understand that it is absurd to judge all muslims based on the actions of some, which is why the details of our position matters. To ignore that these realities exist and to silence those who want to bring up the conversation about them so as to be "politically-correct" is about as absurd, cowardly, and immoral as anything I can think of.  Most of us are aware by now of the numerous incidents involving muslims terrorizing and killing others because their beliefs were offended (i.e. Charlie Hebdo, the murder of Theo Van Goh, the death threats towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie, etc...). We can either be intellectually-honest about the problems that lie within the Islamic world and publicly speak on the matter without fear, or we can take the politically-correct route and excuse unspeakable atrocities. Cultural-relativism is, in my view, a bogus and dangerous idea. If we are atheists who believe that there can be an objective foundation for morality that is rooted in a scientific and reasoned understanding of sentient life, then we are obligated to fight atrocity everywhere and at all times. If a few muslims get offended because of it, I'll break out the world's smallest violin for them and play them a sad song. Be offended all you want, I can't help it. I'm going to stand up for human rights and liberal values everywhere.

Islam has been designated as a race for a purpose.

To stop you criticizing it, lest you are called a racist.
The word Islamophobia was invented for the same reason.
Criticizing Islam is Anti-Muslim hatred.  Conflating ideology and people.

Phobias used to be medical conditions, which are now criminal offenses.

Racism and xenophobia (http://ec.europa.eu/justice/fundamental-rights/racism-xenophobia/index_en.htm)

Those are the rules. Watch your step.

Quote from: JCM800 on January 08, 2018, 08:58:24 PM
I'm sorry. I know this thread is old, but I have to reply. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make, but since the whole race/Islam topic is brought up here, I have to voice my opinion.

I think there are many of us atheists who consider ourselves aligned with the belief that political-correctness regarding Islam is a bad thing. When we criticize muslims for their beliefs, we are specifically defining the word "muslim" to mean a person who practices the religion of Islam, and are in no way attacking people of Arabic ethnicity or the like. We are trying to uphold the principle that beliefs do not automatically deserve respect, and that our western nations have built into their framework a freedom to publicly criticize beliefs. This is not racism, it's not xenophoia, and it's not hatred of any sort. Whether people want to admit it or not, there are problems with specific ideas within Islamic theology (just as there are within Christian theology) which we see muslims carry out relatively frequently. Many of these practices are in direct violation of liberal principles, and therefore cannot be tolerated from anyone, regardless of their race, religon, or nationality. It just so happens that muslims hold many of these principles and many muslims are either complicit, or activlely participate in their practice. I'm referring of course to Jihadism/terrosism, Islamism, compulsory subjugation of women, female genital mutilation, etc... We also of course understand that it is absurd to judge all muslims based on the actions of some, which is why the details of our position matters. To ignore that these realities exist and to silence those who want to bring up the conversation about them so as to be "politically-correct" is about as absurd, cowardly, and immoral as anything I can think of.  Most of us are aware by now of the numerous incidents involving muslims terrorizing and killing others because their beliefs were offended (i.e. Charlie Hebdo, the murder of Theo Van Goh, the death threats towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie, etc...). We can either be intellectually-honest about the problems that lie within the Islamic world and publicly speak on the matter without fear, or we can take the politically-correct route and excuse unspeakable atrocities. Cultural-relativism is, in my view, a bogus and dangerous idea. If we are atheists who believe that there can be an objective foundation for morality that is rooted in a scientific and reasoned understanding of sentient life, then we are obligated to fight atrocity everywhere and at all times. If a few muslims get offended because of it, I'll break out the world's smallest violin for them and play them a sad song. Be offended all you want, I can't help it. I'm going to stand up for human rights and liberal values everywhere.

And I don't have any problem with people legitimately criticising Islam. The problem is that certain people go from criticising issues with Islam to then saying, "We should consider a final solution to fix this. They will eternally be our enemy, and there is no hope to ever change them. There may be some good Muslims, but every Muslim is a potential enemy."

They insist that Islam is monolithic and uniform (despite the fact there are currently two branches currently in civil war in the Middle East, various schools of thought in nexuses like Saudi Arabia, etc.), they insist that Islam cannot be changed (despite the fact there are, again, multiple branches and it literally takes you two seconds to see Islam as was practiced in Turkey is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia, Islam in the United States is different from Islam in Singapore, etc.) and insist that it is a fundamental part of their culture to just be violent terrorists hellbent on destroying every last bit of western culture, and thus must be feared.

The point of this thread is that, historically, religion was just as much a part of race as skin colour or where you were from... you see it with the Irish, the Italians, India to this day, etc. . And there is a line between what is legitimate criticism and what is xenophobic (if we don't want to use the r-word), and that line is crossed way too often by not just nutjobs like pr, but it's been repeated so much that even more rationally minded people start to buy it.

I don't have a problem with people criticising FGM, the oppression of women, the LGBT+ community, the regressive sexual views, the violence etc. of Islam... I only have a problem with people who go on to say that Islam is completely unique in this regard, that it has no political basis and is purely theological (thus, cultural), or that we need to be afraid of every single Muslim because, you never know, they might be a terrorist out to get you. That is when it stops being criticism and starts being very dangerous fear mongering that easily bleeds into racism.

Shiranu wote:

QuoteThe problem is that certain people go from criticising issues with Islam to then saying, "We should consider a final solution to fix this. They will eternally be our enemy, and there is no hope to ever change them. There may be some good Muslims, but every Muslim is a potential enemy."

Citation needed.

QuoteAnd there is a line between what is legitimate criticism and what is xenophobic (if we don't want to use the r-word), and that line is crossed way too often by not just nutjobs like pr, but it's been repeated so much that even more rationally minded people start to buy it.

Citation needed.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 01:27:32 AM
And I don't have any problem with people legitimately criticising Islam. The problem is that certain people go from criticising issues with Islam to then saying, "We should consider a final solution to fix this. They will eternally be our enemy, and there is no hope to ever change them. There may be some good Muslims, but every Muslim is a potential enemy."

They insist that Islam is monolithic and uniform (despite the fact there are currently two branches currently in civil war in the Middle East, various schools of thought in nexuses like Saudi Arabia, etc.), they insist that Islam cannot be changed (despite the fact there are, again, multiple branches and it literally takes you two seconds to see Islam as was practiced in Turkey is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia, Islam in the United States is different from Islam in Singapore, etc.) and insist that it is a fundamental part of their culture to just be violent terrorists hellbent on destroying every last bit of western culture, and thus must be feared.

The point of this thread is that, historically, religion was just as much a part of race as skin colour or where you were from... you see it with the Irish, the Italians, India to this day, etc. . And there is a line between what is legitimate criticism and what is xenophobic (if we don't want to use the r-word), and that line is crossed way too often by not just nutjobs like pr, but it's been repeated so much that even more rationally minded people start to buy it.

I don't have a problem with people criticising FGM, the oppression of women, the LGBT+ community, the regressive sexual views, the violence etc. of Islam... I only have a problem with people who go on to say that Islam is completely unique in this regard, that it has no political basis and is purely theological (thus, cultural), or that we need to be afraid of every single Muslim because, you never know, they might be a terrorist out to get you. That is when it stops being criticism and starts being very dangerous fear mongering that easily bleeds into racism.

The so-called "good muslims" need to be coming out in vocal and ardent opposition to the bad ones instead of playing the victim card every time the topic is brought up. I can't help that they have a holy book comprised of ideas which promote iron-age savagery and depravity. It's not my problem that they've chosen to follow a tradition in which a devout adherence has produced some of the most disgusting acts of violence and terror this world has ever seen, and I'm not going to allow them to make it my problem. All I can say is that if there are non-violent muslims out there who are complicit, or who sympathize with the violent and savage ones, then they ARE my enemy. I don't care what hue their skin is, where they're from, or who the hell they think they are, I won't stand for it. I also find it funny that muslim women are considered "courageous" when they stand up to white men in the west, and they do this whilst wearring a symbol of women's oppression on their heads in which white, western men had no part in subjugating them to. The irony is unbearable. They have a compulsory obligation placed upon them to be subjugated in this way, yet it's white, western men who need to be stood up to? I swear it is almost funny to think about the breathtakingly terrible logic and moral confusion of people who defend Islamic culture and slam the west. There is no other place where you will have a better life, experience less oppession, and have more opportunity and security than here in the US of A. I don't want to hear this marxist nonsense anymore.

@JMC800

I understand your frustration.

QuoteThe so-called "good muslims" need to be coming out in vocal and ardent opposition to the bad ones instead of playing the victim card every time the topic is brought up.

The so-called "good Muslims" cannot do that without risking their lives.
Also, the scriptures are against them, to speak against the teachings of Islam is apostasy.
It is built into the ideology that any and all criticism is forbidden on pain of death.

QuoteI don't want to hear this marxist nonsense anymore.

My observations are that the left (Marxist) and Islam are using each other for attaining total power and control.
For Islam, power and control are bestowed by Allah, it is their divine destiny to have dominance over the world.

They have the determination, will, focus, and all the help from the left to achieve it.
My money is in Islam for winning.

In the end, there can be only one.
Islam does not compromise or share power.
It is a zero-sum game where there is only winner and loser.

P.S. If I may offer an advice: Use shorter paragraphs, it is easier to read.

"...There is no other place where you will have a better life, and have more opportunity and security than here in the US of A."

That is objectively just not true...

Yet they still keep coming...
Because it is better from what they leave behind.

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 04:37:36 AM
Yet they still keep coming...
Because it is better from what they leave behind.

...which still doesn't change the fact that it was an objectively false statement. That is irrelevant in every way.

Maybe you should tell them that then. Stand at harbours yelling "no, don't come here, our country is terrible"

Quote from: Munch on January 09, 2018, 05:19:06 AM
Maybe you should tell them that then. Stand at harbours yelling "no, don't come here, our country is terrible"

(https://media.giphy.com/media/8b7f8e2uVKjII/giphy.gif)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/FxEwsOF1D79za/giphy.gif)

Yall trying way too hard now. 1/10.

When Trump was elected, quite a few people said they will move to Canada.
Not one wanted to move to Mexico. I wonder why?

In the end, nobody moved.
TDS is still strong as ever.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 04:24:49 AM
"...There is no other place where you will have a better life, and have more opportunity and security than here in the US of A."

That is objectively just not true...

Which statement?

1. All humans want to be American?  No, not true.

2. All Americans want to stay that way?  No, not true.

And yes, it is frustrating for a non-American to not to be able to get to America, or once here, to stay here.

And yes, it is frustrating for an American to not be able to get out of America, or once out, to stay there.

There are many people who are examples of all possibilities ... this is why stereotyping or generalizing is fraught with error.

We live in a crazy world (not a rational one like rationalist think, from their position of head up ass).  Whatever ultimate physics may be, humans are ruled by psychology and the dynamics of group interaction (mob rule).

Quote from: Munch on January 09, 2018, 05:19:06 AM
Maybe you should tell them that then. Stand at harbours yelling "no, don't come here, our country is terrible"

Yeah, Shiranu is a closet conservative ... pro Wall ;-)  Or is it more like, don't come to the US, don't make the US stronger thru multiculturalism ... like it has in Europe ;-))  Europe thinks it can do in the 21st century, what the US did with immigrants in the 19th century ... apples vs oranges.  Previously they thought that they could do in the 20th century, what the US did with conquest in the 19th century.  Chancellor Bismarck said, the single most important result of the 19th century was that N America spoke English.  And he was very right.

QuoteIn the end, nobody moved.

Actually, the number of American expats has increased. That is trend that has been going on for years now, so that's not inherently a statement about them leaving because of Trump, but it is ultimately a statement that shows you are incorrect.

QuoteNot one wanted to move to Mexico. I wonder why?

Over two million Americans live in Mexico, and it's estimated that there are many more since 91.2% of Americans in Mexico live there illegally. Mexico is definitely one of the top destinations I would want to live, thanks to it's cheaper standard of living and beautiful history, culture and natural environment.

That said, people generally want to move somewhere nicer; that's why people historically have moved, well, anywhere. Which ironically what you said just proves my point... America is not number one, hence the reason we have expats to nicer countries... either countries which provide higher quality social services, or countries that are more affordable and/or environmentally more desirable (Mexico, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, etc. ). 

QuoteTDS is still strong as ever.

I'm not sure what a telecom company based out of Wisconsin has to do with anything, but... rock on, TDS. Unless you one of them telecom companies that are complete ass, in which case rock off TDS.

By the way, why don't you ask Puerto Ricans about how great America is? They are part of the country, after all. I am sure they are just enamored with Trumps presidency, (spech slowly starts to slow down) given how much concern he has shown since they got nearly wiped off the face of the pla...

Oh..... right....

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 06:11:19 AM
When Trump was elected, quite a few people said they will move to Canada.
Not one wanted to move to Mexico. I wonder why?

In the end, nobody moved.
TDS is still strong as ever.

There were people who moved, to Canada, under George W .. maybe a few under Trump.  They were wanted for drug or sex crimes.  Canada embraces those.  Mexico punishes those.

Most expats are rich people trying to hide their ill got gains.  I read about it every week.  Not that I mind ... good riddance.  Poor people can't fly their Lear jet to the Bahamas.

Americans living in Mexico are there for retirement, not because of job opportunities.  That and easy drugs (legal and not).

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 06:11:19 AM
When Trump was elected, quite a few people said they will move to Canada.
Not one wanted to move to Mexico. I wonder why?

In the end, nobody moved.
TDS is still strong as ever.

Harvey Weinstein et al wished they had moved to Pleasure Island, with the Clintons, when the getting was good.

TDS = Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I was not referring to a telephone company.

Btw, Shir, are you on a night shift, or is it severe insomnia?

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 07:51:17 AM
TDS = Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I was not referring to a telephone company.

Btw, Shir, are you on a night shift, or is it severe insomnia?

Insomnia.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 09:34:30 AM
Insomnia.

To quote Trump ... Sad ;-(

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 07:51:17 AM
TDS = Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I was not referring to a telephone company.

Btw, Shir, are you on a night shift, or is it severe insomnia?

To quote Cheney ... So? ;-)

Does seem like trump derangement syndrome is a condition now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oRds1S9_4M&t=316s

Either that or there's just that many crazy fuckers in america. In which case maybe Shir has a point, if there are that many lunatics that scream at the sky over a political candidate getting elected, maybe immigrants should go elsewhere.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 04:24:49 AM
"...There is no other place where you will have a better life, and have more opportunity and security than here in the US of A."

That is objectively just not true...

And I wonder how you manage to get out of bed in the morning, tie your shoes, and do basic arithmetic of you think that.'

Quote from: JCM800 on January 09, 2018, 01:31:21 PM
And I wonder how you manage to get out of bed in the morning, tie your shoes, and do basic arithmetic of you think that.'

Look up the statistics on the countries that have the highest standard of living, quality of healthcare, lowest poverty rates, and happiness.

Spoiler alert: they aren't America.

Thanks for showing your hand early at least, I would have regretted taking you seriously if you had waited a week or two to show your true colours.

Really love taking people are face value don't you dear?

I found JCM800 first post on this thread to be an example of someone taking the time to distinguish the difference between culture and belief as show of better moral understanding of people then what many would attempt, when someone can't remove the theocracy from a culture and expects that to be an accepted principle of a persons character, then how can someone call themselves an atheist.

Your right, I am glad he showed his hand early, cause he seems someone with a bit more awareness of the problem of culture and theocracy then what many 'progressives' will allow without mental gymnastics.

And yes, there is a sad state in atheism where they are unable to 'cross that line', but only with certain cultures, not with white cultures funny enough. Can take the piss out of Christianity all we want, thats fine, but take the piss out of islam, ooooh, thats thin ice there.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 01:53:07 PM
Look up the statistics on the countries that have the highest standard of living, quality of healthcare, lowest poverty rates, and happiness.

Spoiler alert: they aren't America.

Thanks for showing your hand early at least, I would have regretted taking you seriously if you had waited a week or two to show your true colours.

Lol... I really don't give a flying rat's arse what you think of me or my "true colors". My true colors are red, white, and blue. I'm glad to see that your true colors are just to be another one of the uncountable and immeasurably stupid people on the left who dog America and the American people whilst supporting inferior cultures with inferior ideas and practices. Go live in them and stay out if that's how you feel. We don't needja!!

And btw...

Free access to healthcare doesn't make it a better healthcare system (in fact it makes it worse in many ways). The access to healthcare in those countries may be easier because they unfairly distribute wealth and resources over there, but the "quality" of their healthcare certainly is not higher than here in America.

Poverty rates in America stay the way they are largely because of socialist policies. Social safety nets only serve to keep the impoverished, as well as people in minority communities, financially afloat, but do nothing to increase their self-worth or wealth. It only enables them to stay in their situations. To speak much more eloquently than I can on this topic, here's the impeccable Carol Swain. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OUl3ibKO38k

And "quality of life" and "happiness" are subjective and can vary. Which is why the rankings/statistics are horseshit. And btw, having less poverty and more happiness does not make a country "better". What makes a country better are the opportunities, liberties, rights, and freedoms it gives you. America gave birth to the secular, western, democracy in its modern form. In a country as diverse and free as America is, you would expect to see higher rates of unhappiness, poverty, etc. It just comes with the gig. Those things do not determine whether a country is better or worse. The reason why America is the best is because the freedom and opportunity is literally unparalleled. Sure, other countries come close and do a good job, but none have got it figured out like the good old US of A.

Hating your own country isn't new ...

"Sweden’s prime minister in 2006 captured the opinion of many European elites when he said, “Only barbarism is genuinely Swedish. All further development has been brought from outside.”"

So kill all the adults to benefit the children, kill all the men to benefit the women ... because the only reason children have problems is because of adults, and the only reason why women have problems is because of men ...

And then on we go to all the cultural differences, including religion vs non-religion etc.

!. Project your own demonic self onto others, and blame them for your own failings ... that would be pretty demonic
2. Having demonized, then fear and hate The Other ... enough so you can justify killing them in self defense.

This isn't to say that the others are innocent, they aren't ... they are demonic projecting psychos, just like you.

QuoteReally love taking people are face value don't you dear?

Yep, made the mistake of actually thinking he was here to have a civil opinion and not just, "lol leftist Marxists are retarded.".

I actually thought he was respectful and making solid points as well, and gave a serious answer unlike what I normally would have if say pr or gilga was talking about Islam.

I took his first post as face value, thought he was respectful and serious, and it bit me in the ass. I guess I should know better. At least he flipped out over being objectively wrong early though. I guess I should be more like him, and just automatically call anyone who doesn't agree with me a retarded leftist Marxist who hates his country and blablablablabla.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Yep, made the mistake of actually thinking he was here to have a civil opinion and not just, "lol leftist Marxists are retarded.".

I actually thought he was respectful and making solid points as well, and gave a serious answer unlike what I normally would have if say pr or gilga was talking about Islam.

I took his first post as face value, thought he was respectful and serious, and it bit me in the ass. I guess I should know better. At least he flipped out over being objectively wrong early though. I guess I should be more like him, and just automatically call anyone who doesn't agree with me a retarded leftist Marxist who hates his country and blablablablabla.

The high road is overrated.

America is great at a few things:

1. Thinking they're the best.

2. Shooting the most people.

3. Making the most patents.

4. Building the most churches.

That's about it. We're not the happiest, we're not the safest. We're not even close to having the highest standard of living. The "American dream" is only getting harder and harder to achieve here. Hell, even our internet speeds, which you'd expect to be pretty high here comparatively with how much competition there is, is nowhere near the top despite paying out the ass for it.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 09, 2018, 08:04:20 PM
Yep, made the mistake of actually thinking he was here to have a civil opinion and not just, "lol leftist Marxists are retarded.".

I actually thought he was respectful and making solid points as well, and gave a serious answer unlike what I normally would have if say pr or gilga was talking about Islam.

I took his first post as face value, thought he was respectful and serious, and it bit me in the ass. I guess I should know better. At least he flipped out over being objectively wrong early though. I guess I should be more like him, and just automatically call anyone who doesn't agree with me a retarded leftist Marxist who hates his country and blablablablabla.

Oh Dear. JMC800 is attacking your religion?

Now you know how Christians feel when you rubbish their beliefs.

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 09, 2018, 11:37:50 PM
America is great at a few things:

1. Thinking they're the best.

2. Shooting the most people.

3. Making the most patents.

4. Building the most churches.

That's about it. We're not the happiest, we're not the safest. We're not even close to having the highest standard of living. The "American dream" is only getting harder and harder to achieve here. Hell, even our internet speeds, which you'd expect to be pretty high here comparatively with how much competition there is, is nowhere near the top despite paying out the ass for it.

When I was young, America was great ... we had a gas station on every corner of a 4 corner intersection (in the South 4 corner church intersections).  And an attendant pumped your gas.  And we actually believed what the President said was important, and was the truth.  Too bad my parent's generation didn't abort all the Baby Boomers ;-)  They did try to kill us in Vietnam.

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 11:40:59 PM
Oh Dear. JMC800 is attacking your religion?

Now you know how Christians feel when you rubbish their beliefs.

If America had originally been Muslim, then Shiranu would attack Islam, as predatory.  Context in the multiverse matters.

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 11:40:59 PM
Oh Dear. JMC800 is attacking your religion?

Now you know how Christians feel when you rubbish their beliefs.

Did the dog just make an accident, or are you just talking out your ass again?

Quote from: Blackleaf on January 09, 2018, 11:54:15 PM
Did the dog just make an accident, or are you just talking out your ass again?

Not everyone is leftist indoctrinated. That's how D.J. Trump was elected. Deal with it.

Quote from: Baruch on January 09, 2018, 11:45:12 PM
If America had originally been Muslim, then Shiranu would attack Islam, as predatory.  Context in the multiverse matters.

I expect America wouldn't be much different if Islam were the dominant religion. It certainly wouldn't be any better, but they'd be doing all the same shit Christians have been trying to get away with. Trying to turn America into a religious state? Check. Trying to censor real science in favor of "intelligent design?" Check. Hypocritically silencing opposition while crying "freedom of speech" when they're not allowed to force their views down others' throats? Check. Remaining impervious to the fact that the things they demand of "freedom of religion" are things they'd be terrified of allowing for the next competing religion to have? Check.

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 11:59:43 PM
Not everyone is leftist indoctrinated. That's how D.J. Trump was elected. Deal with it.

We can't all be crypto-Jewish NYC TV-star real estate developer billionaire near-do-wells.

Quote from: pr126 on January 09, 2018, 11:59:43 PM
Not everyone is leftist indoctrinated. That's how D.J. Trump was elected. Deal with it.

Trump was elected because America is full of easily manipulated, gullible morons who think that Fox News is real news and that 9/11 was an inside job. Unsurprisingly, we're far from the being the best educated country on Earth too.

Blackleaf wrote

QuoteI expect America wouldn't be much different if Islam were the dominant religion. It certainly wouldn't be any better, but they'd be doing all the same shit Christians have been trying to get away with. Trying to turn America into a religious state? Check. Trying to censor real science in favor of "intelligent design?" Check. Hypocritically silencing opposition while crying "freedom of speech" when they're not allowed to force their views down others' throats? Check. Remaining impervious to the fact that the things they demand of "freedom of religion" are things they'd be terrified of allowing for the next competing religion to have? Check.

And you cannot imagine that Islam has the same goal. World domination.

Did you know that the Pope is favoring Islam, not Catholicism?  No, not a joke. 

QuoteOh Dear. JMC800 is attacking your religion?

Now you know how Christians feel when you rubbish their beliefs.

Actually, quite the opposite; it's like arguing with a Christian when, presented with objective facts, they still claim they are right.

Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2018, 12:35:08 AM
Actually, quite the opposite; it's like arguing with a Christian when, presented with objective facts, they still claim they are right.

And so are you.

Quote from: pr126 on January 10, 2018, 12:35:54 AM
And so are you.

"I know you are, but what am I?"

Quote from: pr126 on January 10, 2018, 12:35:54 AM
And so are you.

Do tell, what objective facts were presented that proves America is number one?

So far, the arguments have been, "It's not as bad as other places" and, "I don't care about statistics or where we rank, we number one because it's what I believe."

Quote from: Shiranu on January 10, 2018, 12:58:15 AM
Do tell, what objective facts were presented that proves America is number one?

So far, the arguments have been, "It's not as bad as other places" and, "I don't care about statistics or where we rank, we number one because it's what I believe."

You do hate your country, don't you? Thanks to your Marxist "education".

But again, if America is such a bad place, why so many want to go there? Masochism?

QuoteYou do hate your country, don't you? Thanks to your Marxist "education".

Saying your country isn't the best in the world... backed by statistics... means you hate it...

(https://media.tenor.com/images/ec18fa1c4d01b5875ea0b9e87b015513/tenor.gif)

QuoteBut again, if America is such a bad place, why are so many want to go there? Masochism?

Irrelevant af.

Quote from: pr126 on January 10, 2018, 01:07:05 AM
You do hate your country, don't you? Thanks to your Marxist "education".

But again, if America is such a bad place, why so many want to go there? Masochism?

Them evil edumacators learnin them kids with their evolution and their facts. If they'd only watch more fox news, they'd know how merica is the best country in the world but is also going downhill and is terrible thanks to them forgetting god.

pr doesn't want the US to acknowledge that it isn't the best country in the world because acknowledging fault is the first step in correcting it, and pr wants the return of the British empire. :lol:

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 10, 2018, 09:46:36 AM
pr doesn't want the US to acknowledge that it isn't the best country in the world because acknowledging fault is the first step in correcting it, and pr wants the return of the British empire. :lol:

I've never understood the idea of acknowledging fault as a lack of patriotism or an attack on one's country.  Pointing out this stuff is the first step in correcting it and correcting it makes the country better.  So in effect, these people are attacking patriots as unpatriotic.  It's baffling.

Quote from: JCM800 on January 08, 2018, 08:58:24 PM
I'm sorry. I know this thread is old, but I have to reply. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make, but since the whole race/Islam topic is brought up here, I have to voice my opinion.

I think there are many of us atheists who consider ourselves aligned with the belief that political-correctness regarding Islam is a bad thing. When we criticize muslims for their beliefs, we are specifically defining the word "muslim" to mean a person who practices the religion of Islam, and are in no way attacking people of Arabic ethnicity or the like.

I agree.  Recognizing that religiosity in general is not sane...

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 10, 2018, 10:12:03 AM
I've never understood the idea of acknowledging fault as a lack of patriotism or an attack on one's country.  Pointing out this stuff is the first step in correcting it and correcting it makes the country better.  So in effect, these people are attacking patriots as unpatriotic.  It's baffling.

This!! 
According to some, all US soldiers have (whenever and wherever they went to fight) fought for the American way of life and all of its rights.  Yet if a person uses those 'rights' to express an opinion, then they  are a traitor and should go live somewhere else. 

A patriot is a person who supports this country right or wrong!!  Really?  That's not how the founders operated.  Revolt was the watchword of the day.  Questioning the govt. was the way to go.  So, if all those patriotic soldiers fought for our rights, then the true patriot is the one who actually uses those rights to fix the wrong things this country is doing.   

Quote from: Cavebear on January 10, 2018, 10:51:02 AM

Quote from: JCM800 on January 08, 2018, 08:58:24 PM
I'm sorry. I know this thread is old, but I have to reply. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make, but since the whole race/Islam topic is brought up here, I have to voice my opinion.

I think there are many of us atheists who consider ourselves aligned with the belief that political-correctness regarding Islam is a bad thing. When we criticize muslims for their beliefs, we are specifically defining the word "muslim" to mean a person who practices the religion of Islam, and are in no way attacking people of Arabic ethnicity or the like.

I agree.  Recognizing that religiosity in general is not sane...

Your reply is missing...

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on January 10, 2018, 09:46:36 AM
pr doesn't want the US to acknowledge that it isn't the best country in the world because acknowledging fault is the first step in correcting it, and pr wants the return of the British empire. :lol:

The correction is ... extermination of all White males ... maybe all males.  I can do without any correction, thanks.

The British Empire isn't coming back, it was dying by the time he came to Britain in the 1950s.

Quote from: Hydra009 on January 10, 2018, 10:12:03 AM
I've never understood the idea of acknowledging fault as a lack of patriotism or an attack on one's country.  Pointing out this stuff is the first step in correcting it and correcting it makes the country better.  So in effect, these people are attacking patriots as unpatriotic.  It's baffling.

Neither D nor R are patriots ... same in GB.  They are useful idiots.

Quote from: Mike Cl on January 10, 2018, 11:28:00 AM
This!! 
According to some, all US soldiers have (whenever and wherever they went to fight) fought for the American way of life and all of its rights.  Yet if a person uses those 'rights' to express an opinion, then they  are a traitor and should go live somewhere else. 

A patriot is a person who supports this country right or wrong!!  Really?  That's not how the founders operated.  Revolt was the watchword of the day.  Questioning the govt. was the way to go.  So, if all those patriotic soldiers fought for our rights, then the true patriot is the one who actually uses those rights to fix the wrong things this country is doing.   

So you support the free speech of Jefferson Davis, or Nathan Bedford Forrest?  Didn't think so.  Patriotism is for crooks, like Bible thumping.

“Patriotism, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit it is the first.”
Ambrose Bierce



America uber alles!

Quote from: Unbeliever on January 10, 2018, 02:22:01 PM
“Patriotism, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit it is the first.”
Ambrose Bierce

America uber alles!

The oldest profession though ... is journalistic prostitution ... see CNN, Fox etc.

Quote from: Baruch on January 10, 2018, 02:24:45 PM
The oldest profession though ... is journalistic prostitution ... see CNN, Fox etc.

Didn't there have to be an event to write about first?  Or are you limiting it to Fox News, where reporting preceeds events?

Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 12:40:46 PM
Didn't there have to be an event to write about first?  Or are you limiting it to Fox News, where reporting preceeds events?

There is bad news every day, and most posts wander from the OP.  The OP is crap.  Irish are racist too.  And news is always bad, because it sells.  If it isn't in fact bad, it is necessary to spin it as bad, in order to sell more soap.

Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:09:19 PM
There is bad news every day, and most posts wander from the OP.  The OP is crap.  Irish are racist too.  And news is always bad, because it sells.  If it isn't in fact bad, it is necessary to spin it as bad, in order to sell more soap.

A good reason to retreat to the most rational commenters, and ten, I suppose here.  Being "here" requires more thinking.  Usually...

Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:13:36 PM
A good reason to retreat to the most rational commenters, and ten, I suppose here.  Being "here" requires more thinking.  Usually...

I agree, but it is an acquired ability to separate reality from propaganda.  Beware of confirmation bias.

Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:16:00 PM
I agree, but it is an acquired ability to separate reality from propaganda.  Beware of confirmation bias.

I completely agree that confirmation bias exists.  That's one reason why I check the facts of Democrats harder than I check those of Republicans.  I KNOW why Republicans lie.  I don't always know why Democrats do.  And they do less, but that doesn't free them from "some"....

I love when people deliberately mix contexts to prove a point.  Yes, from a biological standpoint there is no such thing as race within our species.  From a political standpoint there certainly is, and  Islam isn't a race.

Just like how creationists say evolution is "just a theory".

Race does exist: the human race.

Thee reason why people keep saying their another race is because long ago a bunch of religious ignormoose said they were different and superior to the other "race and that's how different races began, although we all are one race.

QuoteThee reason why people keep saying their another race is because long ago a bunch of religious ignormoose said they were different and superior to the other "race and that's how different races began, although we all are one race.

*citation needed

I even agree with the race doesn't exist, but it could quite easily be argued that the origins of modern racism, as we understand it in the West, are much more rooted in nationalism and "science" rather than religion, predominately based on the works of English and French biologists and anthropologists who either wanted to justify colonialism and slavery or through interpretations of politicians and businessmen who used their power and say that science proved the idea of "lesser races" was scientific truths.

Of course, racism is really just an extension of ethnocentricism... which we can trace concretely back all the way to the Ancient Greeks (and surely existed long before then)... so to claim it is a product of religion, or science, just doesn't really add up. Modern racism is a product of science; that is just simple reality. But "racism" as an act of enforcing ethnocentric ideas transcends any religion and is found across people of every culture, ethnicity and religion.

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on February 04, 2018, 10:06:54 PMYes, from a biological standpoint there is no such thing as race within our species.  From a political standpoint there certainly is

Doesn't that just make the political standpoint incorrect?   :headscratch:

Quote from: Shiranu on February 04, 2018, 10:55:44 PM
*citation needed

I even agree with the race doesn't exist, but it could quite easily be argued that the origins of modern racism, as we understand it in the West, are much more rooted in nationalism and "science" rather than religion, predominately based on the works of English and French biologists and anthropologists who either wanted to justify colonialism and slavery or through interpretations of politicians and businessmen who used their power and say that science proved the idea of "lesser races" was scientific truths.

Of course, racism is really just an extension of ethnocentricism... which we can trace concretely back all the way to the Ancient Greeks (and surely existed long before then)... so to claim it is a product of religion, or science, just doesn't really add up. Modern racism is a product of science; that is just simple reality. But "racism" as an act of enforcing ethnocentric ideas transcends any religion and is found across people of every culture, ethnicity and religion.

How the fuck is modern racism a product of science?

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 04, 2018, 11:25:50 PM
Doesn't that just make the political standpoint incorrect?   :headscratch:

If we're going to point out all the the incorrect things in politics we're going to be here for years without scratching the surface.

The point is people are deliberately mixing contexts, and deliberately mixing contexts is wrong.

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2018, 09:22:21 AM
How the fuck is modern racism a product of science?

Modern anti-semitism was started by Voltaire ... he wasn't in the Stone Age, but the Age of Enlightenment.  Similarly modern racism starts with Lamarck in the 18th century (genotype the result of life style) and continues to develop into the 19th century with Darwin (as misapplied) once it was admitted that all of us are apes.  This was partly understood by Lamarck earlier, thinking that Africans were not the same species as Europeans ... and further confused by "orangutan" which is Indonesian for "man of the forest".  Social Darwinism isn't a science, it is misused science ... just as The Bell Curve is more recently.  The idea of genetic species wasn't understood until DNA was understood in the 1950s.  That is very modern.  And now with trans-genetic experiments, the idea of species is becoming moot.  So if a sheep in London has 10% human DNA, does it get 1/10 of a vote?  See similar discriminatory legislation in the early US Constitution.

So yes, old science, misused, has been used for racism.  Similar new science, will be misused to.  Just you have to get more clever to misuse it.

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2018, 09:22:21 AM
How the fuck is modern racism a product of science?

I can't give a full response until much later (on phone) but Baruch covered a large part of it. The modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

This doesn't mean science created this bigotry, just that it's how it is justified and expressed in modern society. It's just repackaged ethnocentric ideology with scientific justification.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 05, 2018, 01:37:02 PM
I can't give a full response until much later (on phone) but Baruch covered a large part of it. The modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

This doesn't mean science created this bigotry, just that it's how it is justified and expressed in modern society. It's just repackaged ethnocentric ideology with scientific justification.

If anything, simple village people in New Guinea, have higher average IQ than modern Europeans.  But the results differ ... and not because of IQ.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 05, 2018, 01:37:02 PM
I can't give a full response until much later (on phone) but Baruch covered a large part of it. The modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

This doesn't mean science created this bigotry, just that it's how it is justified and expressed in modern society. It's just repackaged ethnocentric ideology with scientific justification.

I think someone is reading in too much on the biological, chemical, physical relations that separates different people apart. Racism is more mental than anything Science has proven.  You're diluting yourself to think science had anything to do with anything emotional, because like a weapon, science is a tool.

QuoteRacism is more mental than anything Science has proven. 

Except science "proved" racism (until it "disproved" it by changing it's stance on if race even exists) for several hundred years. Race as we think of it is a scientific construct proposed during the 17th century; before then, it meant people who spoke a common tongue or shared nationalistic values. When we speak of racists, we both know damn well that is not the standard that is being used.

The first scientific race was proposed by Francois Bernier in 1684, and shortly after everyone jumped on that bandwagon for several hundred years.

European. Asian. Native American. African. When we think of race, this is what we think of, and the first person to propose these categories existed was a certain Carl Linnaeus (who proposed that Europeans were, "hard working, industrious, intelligent" while Africans were "lazy, incompetent and careless"). This wasn't opinion; this was published scientific "fact" that was thought as fact for centuries. Thomas Jefferson "studied" whites and blacks and concluded that Europeans were scientifically smarter than Africans, who were both less intelligent and had biological sexual impulses that made them lose control of themselves (I.E. the black guy comin' to rape your white women). Again, this was all done "scientifically".

QuoteYou're diluting yourself to think science had anything to do with anything emotional, because like a weapon, science is a tool.

Yes, science is a tool; and it was a tool that was used for very, very horrible things. It's like saying science had nothing to do with Wirth's experiments on Jews and prisoners... it was done because these were some absolutely disgusting monsters... but it wasn't done just to torture the Jews, it was done to research and learn. It was science taken to an unethical extreme (something that happens to this day and commonly).

When I say science, I don't mean "science" the field but "science" the scientists & the culture that surrounds it and composes it, and I think that is rather common sense to know which one is being referred to if you are a native English speaker.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 05, 2018, 01:37:02 PMThe modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

"Scientific" racism is about as scientific as creationism or phrenology, though.

Sure, some scientists dabbled in it, but the concept itself isn't rooted in actual science - racists just used the scientific jargon of the day to provide an air of rationality and respectability to a pre-existing irrational fear/hatred of tribal outgroups.

All science before 20,000 AD ... is hopelessly primitive ape turd throwing.

Quote from: Shiranu on February 05, 2018, 09:01:17 PM
Except science "proved" racism (until it "disproved" it by changing it's stance on if race even exists) for several hundred years. Race as we think of it is a scientific construct proposed during the 17th century; before then, it meant people who spoke a common tongue or shared nationalistic values. When we speak of racists, we both know damn well that is not the standard that is being used.

The first scientific race was proposed by Francois Bernier in 1684, and shortly after everyone jumped on that bandwagon for several hundred years.

European. Asian. Native American. African. When we think of race, this is what we think of, and the first person to propose these categories existed was a certain Carl Linnaeus (who proposed that Europeans were, "hard working, industrious, intelligent" while Africans were "lazy, incompetent and careless"). This wasn't opinion; this was published scientific "fact" that was thought as fact for centuries. Thomas Jefferson "studied" whites and blacks and concluded that Europeans were scientifically smarter than Africans, who were both less intelligent and had biological sexual impulses that made them lose control of themselves (I.E. the black guy comin' to rape your white women). Again, this was all done "scientifically".

Yes, science is a tool; and it was a tool that was used for very, very horrible things. It's like saying science had nothing to do with Wirth's experiments on Jews and prisoners... it was done because these were some absolutely disgusting monsters... but it wasn't done just to torture the Jews, it was done to research and learn. It was science taken to an unethical extreme (something that happens to this day and commonly).

When I say science, I don't mean "science" the field but "science" the scientists & the culture that surrounds it and composes it, and I think that is rather common sense to know which one is being referred to if you are a native English speaker.

The German Nazis researched the Jews hereditary traits that were negative due to in breeding. True they used science to do terrible things and thus science down that path looked robot like, but what I'm explaining to you is it was all done with religious notions that the Aryan "race" was Superior. Like many before them the ideal of superiority or ignorance created race not anything physical, biological, or chemical. Religion was used as a science once which we know isn't scientifically at all, so sir you are adding salt to a pepper box.

In the religion of scientism, the scientists are just people, but the science is immaculate conception.  And the laity (non-scientists) are legitimately clueless even more than a Polish person at a Latin mass ... so if the laity misinterpret then that isn't science's fault ... because science is perfect.

This is schizoid, to separate a subject from the practitioners, as if they are unrelated (per Plato).  Can y'all see how the inerrancy and infallibility idea came out of Greek philosophy (proto-science), into theology?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zkL91LzCMc

Yes, Irish don't approve of humans marrying selkies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkie

Shinaru, please keep in mind that when race was invented, a scientist could seriously describe himself as a creationist, and indeed, creationism was the only way to explain the diversity of life back then. When you believe that the entirety of the human race descended from a dozen or so salty dogs stepping off the Ark onto a depopulated post-diluvian Earth, then it only makes sense that the different sons of Noah could develop into distinct "races."

The theory of races was in trouble ever since Darwin predicted that Africa was the origin of humanity, and only multiplied as paleontology and archeology placed humans in the exact right places to confirm this, and finally genetic sequencing of human DNA and the subsequent tracking of mitocondrial and Y chromasomal DNA revealed our true pedigree and lay in stark black and white for all to see that the only way races could be preserved was to make it a mockery of the rest of phylogenetics.

Speaking of which, phylogenetics had at much the same time started ditching the Linean taxonomy, as that same genetic analysis had revealed that some creatures we thought were related to others (via taxonomy) were revealed to not be related, and others not thought to be related were actually more. While the tree of life did not change all that much on the large scale, the revisions showed that the Linean types (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, etc.) was no longer tenable.

Like all human inventions, like boundaries on the globe ... they are arbitrary human creations ... with more or less plausibility depending on which time period we are speaking of.  Humans know nothing, except the content of their own delusions.

Quote from: Baruch on February 06, 2018, 07:08:57 PM
Like all human inventions, like boundaries on the globe ... they are arbitrary human creations ... with more or less plausibility depending on which time period we are speaking of.  Humans know nothing, except the content of their own delusions.

We are all variations of our Africa ancestors.  I have my hair and eye color due to adaptions to lower latitude sunlight.  Africans, southern Asians, and Native Australians have their due to more sunlight.  I don't understand why that ever makes a difference.

On the other hand, culture does,