Just something to keep in mind when you are being told to fear any group, that you always need to be aware of just how relevant they really are. Media attention =/= relevance or actual power of a group. And that does include groups we on the left don't like as well.
Fear is, unfortunately, what sells... and as news becomes more and more tabloid than journalism, especially news you find from independent sources with no journalistic background like you will find on youtube, then you really have to be aware that it's all just a feedback loop of, "Be afraid of this group, because some of them are bad, therefor I am afraid of them, therefor you need to be afraid of this group, become some of them are bad, therefor I am afraid of them, therefor you need...".
I think that both sides of the argument should be heard. Otherwise it is just an echo chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3gOOnwhlns
Quote from: pr126 on October 06, 2017, 02:12:08 AM
I think that both sides of the argument should be heard. Otherwise it is just an echo chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3gOOnwhlns
All I hear is "liberals suck! They no intelligent! Facts and Research? Fuck that! Insult. Insult. Insult."
Yes I am antiNazi and white supremacists. Who wouldn't? Oh wait....retarded red people.
Inside every liberal there is a totalitarian screaming to get out.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 06, 2017, 01:40:54 AM
Media attention =/= relevance or actual power of a group. And that does include groups we on the left don't like as well.
Fear is, unfortunately, what sells... and as news becomes more and more tabloid than journalism, especially news you find from independent sources with no journalistic background like you will find on youtube, then you really have to be aware that it's all just a feedback loop of, "Be afraid of this group, because some of them are bad, therefor I am afraid of them, therefor you need to be afraid of this group, become some of them are bad, therefor I am afraid of them, therefor you need...".
I'm often annoyed and have been for years, when I read or watch news coverage describing what's going on someplace: "A tribal war in Zoompagoombah is taking place, and hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered by the Zoompas."
Well, that's interesting and all. Everyone is attracted to hideous slaughter. But I can't tell you how many times, I am left trying to understand what's really going on. First of all, hundreds of thousands? If an unknown location like Zoompagoombah has a hundred thousand people to spare, how come I've never heard of a place that big before? But second and even more important, why are they killing each other?
It's like the reason for the conflict never even occurred to the Media, when in my mind, the reason is the story. Well, at least 90% of the story. It's the part that gives insight into why these humans do what they do. It's the part that explains why people act at the extreme end of irrational, but the reporters don't even attempt to investigate the most important part about the conflict.
School kids on a playground: "A fight! A fight, Everybody!" And all the kids run over and form a circle around the spectacle. Why is the fight going on? "Who cares? It's a fight!" The teacher or the principal may ask what caused the fight, but I doubt they care that much. After all, how much of a reasoned explanation to they expect to get from two kids who are soon to be doomed to detention and are momentarily still hopped up on adrenalin and sugar. They are just there trying to train children not to fight. Fuck the reason. Just don't fight.
Maybe I'm missing the point and the only things that really do matter are the conflicts, but I end up seeking out and getting reasons for the conflict from sources that are even less intellectually equipped than the media to explain it. Because the media doesn't have time to report anything other than the physical display of people at their worst.
Quote from: pr126 on October 06, 2017, 05:14:42 AM
Inside every liberal there is a totalitarian screaming to get out.
Left handed evil is superior to right handed evil, because the Lefties are an oppressed minority ;-)
SGOS - bad news sells. Without advertising schlock, you wouldn't have a media. So it is necessary to create conflict, even if it didn't exist. Journalism is a figment of your imagination.
Worth listening to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRdxyVkzwbM
Quote from: Shiranu on October 06, 2017, 01:40:54 AM
Just something to keep in mind when you are being told to fear any group, that you always need to be aware of just how relevant they really are. Media attention =/= relevance or actual power of a group. And that does include groups we on the left don't like as well.
Fear is, unfortunately, what sells... and as news becomes more and more tabloid than journalism, especially news you find from independent sources with no journalistic background like you will find on youtube, then you really have to be aware that it's all just a feedback loop of, "Be afraid of this group, because some of them are bad, therefor I am afraid of them, therefor you need to be afraid of this group, become some of them are bad, therefor I am afraid of them, therefor you need...".
It's also the false equivalence trap the media falls into on almost every issue. It's reached the point that if they had a mathematical logician come on TV to explain that he had once and for all proven that 1+1=2, the network would go out and deliberately look for someone from the Binary Liberation Front or some damn thing to put forth the contrary argument that 1+1 may only be in the vicinity of two, and might even be three. And then the talking head moderating would act like these two viewpoints are just two sides of an argument and "the debate goes on".
Well, no they fucking well aren't equivalent. And it's this kind of media idiocy that keeps climate change denial alive, that keeps creationism alive, and that's now trying to present another false equivalence here.
Here's a quick test. Off the top of your head, without resorting to Google or Wikipedia, name all the left-wing extremists and groups that have committed major acts of violence and domestic terrorism over the last 25 years.
Now do the same with the right-wing individuals and groups. It's a lot easier, isn't it?
Does this mean leftist extremists cannot be violent? No. But they cannot argue equivalence. The balance of terror is far more on the far right than on the far left, and anyone resorting to it on either side is wrong.
And also,
when the fuck did being anti-fascist become a term of derision?
Antifa is a violent group known for hijacking organized protests. They are not the first group to use the cover of legitimate protest to inflict violence, nor will they be the last. But violence is their method of protest and should be shut down.
Why this attempt to deflect?
https://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/
http://www.newsweek.com/are-antifa-terrorists-658396
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/formally-recognize-antifa-terrorist-organization-0
Most of the "Antifa" attacks aren't even done by Antifa. Faux News just needs a group of liberals to shit on.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 06, 2017, 11:33:57 AM
Most of the "Antifa" attacks aren't even done by Antifa. Faux News just needs a group of liberals to shit on.
Link please?
Quote from: article below
For almost three decades, Scott Crow was part of the Antifa movement.
"I fought (against) Nazis. I've had death threats. I've had guns drawn on me. I've drawn guns on fascists. I've been in altercations. I've smoke-bombed places," he said. "I've done a myriad of things to try and stop fascism and its flow over the years."
Activists don black bloc, Crow said, as a means to an end.
"People put on the masks so that we can all become anonymous, right? And then, therefore, we are able to move more freely and do what we need to do, whether it is illegal or not," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html
Anti-fascist? As in Stalin? The Street Communists of the 1920s-1930s weren't any nicer than the Brown Shirts/Black Shirts. Communists aren't liberal, they are tyrants, same as the other fascists. The US isn't anti-fascist, never has been. We were anti-Axis ... but pro-Stalin. Of course we betrayed Uncle Joe asap. Americans were more racist than the Germans until the 1970s, and more anti-Semitic than the Germans until the 1950s. The US isn't a liberal country (in modern definition) ... Revolutionary France/Russia ... were the liberals (in modern definition).
"Some."
Lol.
Antifa is inherently violent. They want a revolution. They are communists. And no, calling them commies isn't just a scare tactic - it's just a fact of the matter; that's literally what they are.
They have also been labeled a terrorist organisation by homeland security.
They (Antifa) also carry the red hammer and sickle Soviet flag.
They have no idea what communism was.
Middle class spoiled young kids with time on their hands, and little awareness of reality, and no knowledge of history. Thanks to “progressive†indoctrination.
Just the right people the left recruits for their foot soldiers.
They are but pawns in a game.
When I read how Antifa apparently 'fought against nazis' I always chuckle, because these 'nazis' they are 'fighting against' arn't even real nazis in comparison. These nazis they claim to fight against are just some white supremacists at worst, groups of idiots following ideologies of the actual nazis, but never having committed anything under the banner they wave that could even compare to actual nazis. They are just some fools with a warped sense of reality, they aren't going out into the street hunting down black people, cutting them up in fucked up experiments, throwing them in gas chambers on masse, these modern day 'nazis' are just some clueless morons with some racist tendencies.
As such, when reading how people claim to have 'fought against nazis', I just laugh, because its so bloody obvious these are virtue signally morons as bad as the people they fight against, you are not fighting actual nazis, because if they were real nazis', you'd be dead by now. You just want to make out like your enemy as as bad as something that occurred in the past and proclaim yourself as something grander then you are.
My grandfather fought the nazis, he landed on the beaches with gun in hand and came home with a medal, and its really an insult to see these fuck nuggets like Antifa claim they fought real nazis.
Make believe "anti-fascist" are fighting make-believe nazis.
A macabre show set up by Soros and the left to destabilize America.
A replay of the 1930's Europe? Where does it lead?
Yeah, my grandfather fought Nazis too, in N Africa, and had to take a swim when his troopship was sunk by Nazis while making its way from Tunisia to Egypt. Remember ... narcissism, LARPing, virtue signaling ... define the new generation.
Quote from: chill98 on October 06, 2017, 11:19:01 AM
Antifa is a violent group known for hijacking organized protests. They are not the first group to use the cover of legitimate protest to inflict violence, nor will they be the last. But violence is their method of protest and should be shut down.
Why this attempt to deflect?
https://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/
http://www.newsweek.com/are-antifa-terrorists-658396
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/formally-recognize-antifa-terrorist-organization-0
I'm sorry, but no one is trying to deflect. What is being said in the video is that it is a group that has been vastly over-reported on compared to how much they have actually done in reality, creating a boogieman out of a politically irrelevant group. Compare the amount of crime and political policy influenced by white supremacists, now compare that to Antifa. It's like comparing the socio-political impact of Neo-Nazis to third graders. They just don't compete.
Quote from: Gilgamesh on October 07, 2017, 05:19:59 AM
"Some."
Lol.
Antifa is inherently violent. They want a revolution. They are communists. And no, calling them commies isn't just a scare tactic - it's just a fact of the matter; that's literally what they are.
They have also been labeled a terrorist organisation by homeland security.
Agreed. They are also inherently irrelevant atm because name one political policy that has been influenced by them, and compare the number of crimes committed by far-left radicals like Antifa to the amount of crimes committed by far-right groups like the Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists and groups they ostensibly are directly opposing. The media, particularly alt-right conservatism, wants to heavily push this narrative that they are basically the same as the far right (as you can see in this thread), but that ignores, rather intentionally and deceivingly, one stupidly crucial bit of information... the white supremacists and alt-right has political power in the House, in the Senate and most disturbingly all the way up to the President of the United States.
Tell me, how many politicians are directly influenced by Antifa policy in the American government?
People want to say it's some grand conspiracy, ohhhh it's George Soros... bullshit. "Antifa" as we see protesting is mainly a direct consequence of American policy being increasingly leaning to the right. That doesn't make their action justified, no more than saying ISIS is a direct result of crimes by America and the West makes ISIS the good guys, but you cant change reality just because you want to make the narrative scarier and like it's some type of grand conspiracy involving the whole world out to get "you". That's not realistically how politics or the world works. Rather it's just a mix of violent blowback to the alt-right influence on our government and idiots who would be violent on the left or the right doing violent things. But that doesn't make Antifa representative of the liberal movement anymore than Neo Nazis are representative of the right as a whole.
If it is acceptable to label an extremely marginal group such as Antifa as representative of liberals, the left, whoever... then it is acceptable to therefor consider Neo Nazis and White Supremacists, a slightly less marginal but still super niche section of the right wing, as representative of all Conservatives. That is stupid as fuck.
The definition of DEFLECT:
Quote from: Shiranu on October 07, 2017, 10:08:20 AM
....
Compare the amount of crime and political policy influenced by white supremacists, now compare that to Antifa. It's like comparing the socio-political impact of Neo-Nazis to third graders. They just don't compete.
Quote from: chill98 on October 07, 2017, 10:24:04 AM
The definition of DEFLECT:
How is that a deflection? I literally post several paragraphs saying why they are just as bad as the violent right. A deflection would be trying to change the topic instead of addressing what was said. But the fact that I have to explain this is in itself a response to an attempted deflection of the point; that Antifa are completely and utterly irrelevant in comparison to how the media portrays them. That has been the point since post one.
Making this about Antifa is a deflection from the point that the media has vastly overblown their relevance. Literally what you just posted was a text book definition of a deflection, of not addressing anything I said and just saying, "Well, such and such and so and so...". You cant have literally zero response to my comment, start a new train of thought, and in that new train of thought say the other person is deflecting. If there was an example of deflecting in a textbook, that would be a contender for the example they would give.
I really don't get you people sometimes; even when I agree with you, I am in the wrong. It starts to feel like yall are less interested in reality and more about just beating your chest and talking about how terrible everyone else is, and just sulking in your, "Oh, the world is terrible and out to get me!" b.s. . That, or just by default that I lean further left than yall, my opinion must be inherently wrong and called out... even if my opinion happens to agree with yours.
Honestly. If it's just an issue of disagreeing with me because I am the "other side", then just be honest and say that and let's just cut the bullshit, because it's getting sad at this point the more and more I realise how often I have actually agreed with yall on some core issues, but you still want to act like we are enemies even when I state that agreement.
"White supremacist" is a meme by propaganda.
Part and parcel of white guilt, self-loathing, and for the destruction of western civilization.
And who is doing this wholesale demoralization, accusations? Oddly enough, white people.
I do not see any other race, ethnicity, or group of people on the planet presently described by white people as supremacist. Or describe them selves as such.
Except, look at this: Quran 3:110
Yusuf Ali: Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind enjoining what is right forbidding what is wrong and believing in Allah.
And yes, Muslims are taught from infancy that they are superior to non-Muslims by virtue of their religion.
Are white people the problem? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nviIsMUTV-8)
Quote"White supremacist" is a meme by propaganda.
Bull. Fucking. Shit. Just once in your life, can you say something you didn't pull out of your ass about something you know nothing about.
Seriously, when it comes to American culture you have proven yourself completely and utterly clueless time and time again. Come live here in the south for a year, a month, even a week and then try to repeat that sentence with a straight face.
QuoteI do not see any other race, ethnicity, or group of people on the planet presently described by white people as supremacist.
The Chinese are notoriously bad at considering themselves superior. It's less about skin colour and more to do with who is the dominate group of the empire. For Americans, it's WASPs, in China it's people of Han descent.
Does that make me have Han guilt to say that they oppress ethnic minorities in China, Tibet, etc. ... even though I'm not of Han, or even Chinese, descent?
We talk about whites in America and the west because "whites" (and only a certain segment of them) make up the majority. It's the same shit of bringing up women's rights and going, "How dare you not talk about guy issues too!". Same shit, same obnoxious.
We only read news from English speaking sources, so we think we are the centre of the world. But look at the Castilians and the Catalonian violence, look at ethnic minorities in Eastern Europe, look at literally all of Africa... this idea that there is an ethnic majority that oppressors minorities is not even remotely a white only thing. That is, once again, your utter ignorance speaking.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 07, 2017, 10:08:20 AM
I'm sorry, but no one is trying to deflect. What is being said in the video is that it is a group that has been vastly over-reported on compared to how much they have actually done in reality, creating a boogieman out of a politically irrelevant group. Compare the amount of crime and political policy influenced by white supremacists, now compare that to Antifa. It's like comparing the socio-political impact of Neo-Nazis to third graders. They just don't compete.
Yes, but these groups are cat's paws for Deep State factions. They are part of crafting a Narrative. It is all fake news. Until the nukes fall, and Agenda 21 is accomplished ;-(
Then it's all the more important to not blow them out of proportion.
You say you want a revolution....
They're almost always violent. Revolutions don't happen when a bunch of nice people sit around holding hands deciding things have to radically change for the better or worse.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 07, 2017, 01:16:31 PM
You say you want a revolution....
They're almost always violent. Revolutions don't happen when a bunch of nice people sit around holding hands deciding things have to radically change for the better or worse.
Worked pretty well for MLK and Ghandi. There were violent civil rights activists and indian nationalists, sure, but we don't lump those violent factions into the main movement. Nor the women's or LGBT movements.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 07, 2017, 01:16:31 PM
You say you want a revolution....
They're almost always violent. Revolutions don't happen when a bunch of nice people sit around holding hands deciding things have to radically change for the better or worse.
The nice people were sitting in Parisian salons, sipping wine, when the trundle came for them, to take them to the Plac De Concorde ;-(
Quote from: Shiranu on October 07, 2017, 02:09:46 PM
Worked pretty well for MLK and Ghandi. There were violent civil rights activists and indian nationalists, sure, but we don't lump those violent factions into the main movement. Nor the women's or LGBT movements.
Non-revolutions, just like Washington's. MLK and Gandhi were both killed before the real revolution could start. You are completely taken in my Jesse Jackson and Nehru. MLK is nothing in the US today, just a Deep State-safe statue. Bernie came close, but he was cock-blocked by Hillary. Gandhi is less than nothing in India. The party that his assassin belonged to, is the governing party there.
Quote from: Munch on October 07, 2017, 07:46:11 AM
When I read how Antifa apparently 'fought against nazis' I always chuckle, because these 'nazis' they are 'fighting against' arn't even real nazis in comparison. These nazis they claim to fight against are just some white supremacists at worst, groups of idiots following ideologies of the actual nazis, but never having committed anything under the banner they wave that could even compare to actual nazis. They are just some fools with a warped sense of reality, they aren't going out into the street hunting down black people, cutting them up in fucked up experiments, throwing them in gas chambers on masse, these modern day 'nazis' are just some clueless morons with some racist tendencies.
As such, when reading how people claim to have 'fought against nazis', I just laugh, because its so bloody obvious these are virtue signally morons as bad as the people they fight against, you are not fighting actual nazis, because if they were real nazis', you'd be dead by now. You just want to make out like your enemy as as bad as something that occurred in the past and proclaim yourself as something grander then you are.
My grandfather fought the nazis, he landed on the beaches with gun in hand and came home with a medal, and its really an insult to see these fuck nuggets like Antifa claim they fought real nazis.
The Anti-fa are a bunch of left nuts no better than the right nuts. I have no use for either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fk4xg3YPFcA
Nothing to fear. The US has been at Civil War since 1861. The war never ended in 1865. Don't let historians control your narrative.
What is more likely is a Gulag, for political dissenters. Like what both Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln did, only much bigger.
Quote from: Baruch on October 10, 2017, 05:01:09 AM
Nothing to fear. The US has been at Civil War since 1861. The war never ended in 1865. Don't let historians control your narrative.
What is more likely is a Gulag, for political dissenters. Like what both Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln did, only much bigger.
The North and South didn't know to manage prison camps in the US Civil War. But even today in the midst of a war, where would you put 10,000 enemy soldiers determined to escape? It's not an easy situation. I suspect that, with the best intentions, it could not be done well.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 02:08:40 AM
The North and South didn't know to manage prison camps in the US Civil War. But even today in the midst of a war, where would you put 10,000 enemy soldiers determined to escape? It's not an easy situation. I suspect that, with the best intentions, it could not be done well.
They had a system. They sometimes used it ... it is called parol for military prisoners. I don't know why they didn't do more of that, but probably because it would have looked bad at election time, the usual excuses politicians make. Meanwhile, what color FEMA camp do you like?
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 07:15:29 AM
They had a system. They sometimes used it ... it is called parol for military prisoners. I don't know why they didn't do more of that, but probably because it would have looked bad at election time, the usual excuses politicians make. Meanwhile, what color FEMA camp do you like?
The North stopped exchanging prisoners because the South refused to consider Black Union soldiers as legitimate Union soldiers. The Confederates either shot them on sight or made them slaves. Bone up, bonehead...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 02:14:21 PM
The North stopped exchanging prisoners because the South refused to consider Black Union soldiers as legitimate Union soldiers. The Confederates either shot them on sight or made them slaves. Bone up, bonehead...
So the Union won't play ball, unless the South surrenders? Not much of a negotiation there. And it was the North that chose to use Black soldiers ... not that I blame them. The Union could have taken all the non-Black soldiers home, out of Andersonville, if they weren't all SJW.
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 08:09:53 PM
So the Union won't play ball, unless the South surrenders? Not much of a negotiation there. And it was the North that chose to use Black soldiers ... not that I blame them. The Union could have taken all the non-Black soldiers home, out of Andersonville, if they weren't all SJW.
As usual, you change the subject. You and Trump think alike. The Union stopped the prisoner exchange only when the Confederates refused to accept the free black Union soldiers as soldiers to be exchanged.
To defend that is disgusting.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 05:26:11 AM
As usual, you change the subject. You and Trump think alike. The Union stopped the prisoner exchange only when the Confederates refused to accept the free black Union soldiers as soldiers to be exchanged.
To defend that is disgusting.
I wasn't defending the Southern POV. You are defending the hypocritical Union POV. The Union didn't want the African-American soldiers back. Lincoln wanted to send them all to Liberia.
Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 07:07:50 AM
I wasn't defending the Southern POV. You are defending the hypocritical Union POV. The Union didn't want the African-American soldiers back. Lincoln wanted to send them all to Liberia.
Yes, you did. You said the Union wouldn't "play ball" with the South.
The Union forwent getting white Union soldiers back at the cost of leaving black Union soldiers behind.
Someone's waking up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpZbVrIP1zc
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 11:01:40 AM
Someone's waking up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpZbVrIP1zc
Posting a video is not an argument. Did you have some point to make?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 11:04:57 AM
Posting a video is not an argument. Did you have some point to make?
The argument is in the video. Not my argument, my point was this person is waking up. Like I said....
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 11:16:23 AM
The argument is in the video. Not my argument, my point was this person is waking up. Like I said....
A link is not an argument. A video is not an an argument. They can SUPPORT an argument, but if you can't put it into words I don't CARE about your argument.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 11:28:37 AM
A link is not an argument. A video is not an an argument. They can SUPPORT an argument, but if you can't put it into words I don't CARE about your argument.
LOL
How would you know whether this video presents an argument? You are such a tool... lol
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 11:34:09 AM
LOL
How would you know whether this video presents an argument? You are such a tool... lol
I was waiting for the personal attack. Congrats, you held off 5 posts.
You missed the point. You can't just use other peoples's videos or links to present your point here. You have to do it YOURSELF! As in YOUR OWN WORDS. It's called "an argument". Google that...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 11:41:04 AM
I was waiting for the personal attack. Congrats, you held off 5 posts.
You missed the point. You can't just use other peoples's videos or links to present your point here. You have to do it YOURSELF! As in YOUR OWN WORDS. It's called "an argument". Google that...
sez u...
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 12:00:03 PM
sez u...
Oh hark, this wound 'tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as
a church-door; but 'tis enough. 'Twill serve.
"Sez you" is utterly devestating a response, I cry, I weep., disconsolate..
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 10:07:03 AM
Yes, you did. You said the Union wouldn't "play ball" with the South.
The Union forwent getting white Union soldiers back at the cost of leaving black Union soldiers behind.
The US leaves soldiers behind, all the time. Stop waving your flag and thumping your Bible ... well the first one anyway ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 07:06:15 PM
The US leaves soldiers behind, all the time. Stop waving your flag and thumping your Bible ... well the first one anyway ;-)
Another Trump-style argument. You shifted between the US Civil War prisoner-of-exchange cessation to "The US leaves soldiers behind, all the time.".
And THAT is a totally false argument separately. I was just watching a documentary where the North Vietnamese said they were impressed how the the US soldiers struggled hard to never leave a dead or wounded soldier on the field. THEY respected that and YOU deny it was true.
Shame!
Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 03:45:50 AM
Another Trump-style argument. You shifted between the US Civil War prisoner-of-exchange cessation to "The US leaves soldiers behind, all the time.".
And THAT is a totally false argument separately. I was just watching a documentary where the North Vietnamese said they were impressed how the the US soldiers struggled hard to never leave a dead or wounded soldier on the field. THEY respected that and YOU deny it was true.
Shame!
Tell it to the guys we left at Bataan.
Quote from: Baruch on October 23, 2017, 10:58:14 PM
Tell it to the guys we left at Bataan.
You think by exception. And as if exception proves the rule. You are educated but muddled.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 27, 2017, 06:29:49 AM
You think by exception. And as if exception proves the rule. You are educated but muddled.
You are an optimist, you choose exceptions that fit your model.
Quote from: Baruch on October 27, 2017, 01:39:20 PM
You are an optimist, you choose exceptions that fit your model.
Only because they are accurate ones.
antifa has punched a few people and burned a few vacant cars, the nazi groups have attempted and committed murders, have advocated racism that leads to mass violence against racial minorities, and have posed a serious threat to countless people.
comparing a few bad antifas to the shit nazis do makes you an apologist for the nazi groups.
Quote from: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 08:36:14 PM
antifa has punched a few people and burned a few vacant cars, the nazi groups have attempted and committed murders, have advocated racism that leads to mass violence against racial minorities, and have posed a serious threat to countless people.
comparing a few bad antifas to the shit nazis do makes you an apologist for the nazi groups.
I agree completely. Too many people have lost the ability to make rational equivalencies. Antifa (while a bit annying) is not Nazi. The American Nazis are.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 12:51:39 AM
I agree completely. Too many people have lost the ability to make rational equivalencies. Antifa (while a bit annying) is not Nazi. The American Nazis are.
Yes, Antifa isn't Nazi, it is Communist. I nuke communists.
Quote from: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:03:03 AM
Yes, Antifa isn't Nazi, it is Communist. I nuke communists.
No, they aren't communists. They are mostly socialists and sometimes communitarians. BIG difference.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IxAAAOSw5VFWKiAs/s-l300.jpg)
Why aren't communists stigmatized just as much as Confederates and neo-Nazis are? (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/why-arent-communists-stigmatized-just-as-much-as-confederates-and-neo-nazis-are/article/2631449)
(http://cdn.washingtonexaminer.biz/cache/1060x600-a31e51a3dfc725d6d2f2fd201c33c576.jpg)
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:26:19 AM
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IxAAAOSw5VFWKiAs/s-l300.jpg)
Why aren't communists stigmatized just as much as Confederates and neo-Nazis are? (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/why-arent-communists-stigmatized-just-as-much-as-confederates-and-neo-nazis-are/article/2631449)
(http://cdn.washingtonexaminer.biz/cache/1060x600-a31e51a3dfc725d6d2f2fd201c33c576.jpg)
Yep, always some crazy with a flag. But most of them just have crazy conservatives. Doesn't make them communists, flag or not.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 11:31:02 AM
Yep, always some crazy with a flag. But most of them just have crazy conservatives. Doesn't make them communists, flag or not.
Well, OK. So by the same logic are the crazy people with the Nazi flags real Nazis, flag or not?
Some of those flags are brand new straight out of the factory.
These people look like extras in a movie. They sure getting paid for attendance.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHCaO6rVoAAzCGc.jpg)
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:41:59 AM
Well, OK. So by the same logic are the crazy people with the Nazi flags real Nazis, flag or not?
Some of those flags are brand new straight out of the factory.
These people look like extras in a movie. They sure getting paid for attendance.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHCaO6rVoAAzCGc.jpg)
Well, no, the nazis SAY they are Nazis. The anti-fa don't claim to be Commies. Or do they? I might have missed something.
The Antifa says and does whatever they are paid to do.
Apparently, they are hired mercenaries. (Soros, DMC)
Bored middle-class students, out for a bit of an excitement.
BTW, the KKK and BLM got off the same bus for the show in Charlottesville.
Pawns in a game. A dangerous game.
“Crowds on Demand†Posts Charlotte Craigslist Ad Offering $25/Hr For Paid Protesters
(http://www.charlottestories.com/crowds-demand-post-charlotte-craigslist-ad-offering-25hr-paid-protesters/)
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:49:06 AM
The Antifa says and does whatever they are paid to do.
Apparently, they are hired mercenaries. (Soros, DMC)
Bored middle-class students, out for a bit of an excitement.
BTW, the KKK and BLM got off the same bus for the show in Charlottesville.
Pawns in a game. A dangerous game.
“Crowds on Demand†Posts Charlotte Craigslist Ad Offering $25/Hr For Paid Protesters
(http://www.charlottestories.com/crowds-demand-post-charlotte-craigslist-ad-offering-25hr-paid-protesters/)
The alt-right doesn't think of them are bored or middle class. Bored middle class is exactly what they pry for...
These are angry people protesting a movement of stupids out (like Steve Bannon) to wreck society to remake it nationalist and authoritarian. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for our children under a nazi-like Amerika.
Or a communist America if Bernie Sanders had his way.
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 12:16:14 PM
Or a communist America if Bernie Sanders had his way.
I'm not a Sanderista either. But I might be a Warrenite. There are worse goals than to protect The People from the greed of Amoral Business. The Republicans want to gift the rich out of our stagnation; others want to build our way forward.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 11:44:21 AM
Well, no, the nazis SAY they are Nazis. The anti-fa don't claim to be Commies. Or do they? I might have missed something.
Know people by what they do, not what they say. They are named after a group in Germany from the 1930s. Who fought Brown Shirts. Must have been Catholic nuns then.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 08:42:01 AM
No, they aren't communists. They are mostly socialists and sometimes communitarians. BIG difference.
When I see Reds, I shoot, I don't salami slice ideology with them.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 12:13:54 PM
The alt-right doesn't think of them are bored or middle class. Bored middle class is exactly what they pry for...
These are angry people protesting a movement of stupids out (like Steve Bannon) to wreck society to remake it nationalist and authoritarian. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for our children under a nazi-like Amerika.
The student protestors of the 60s were communist agents ... I would have shot a lot more than the kids at Kent State. Or simply drafted all the damn students into Vietnam ... you hear me Dick Cheney and Bill Clinton? If the current Resistance gained traction, I would bring back the draft, and draft them all to Syria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9siALpqSSKw&t=205s
QuoteI would have shot a lot more than the kids at Kent State.
I really hope that is suppose to have a sarcasm tag.
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2017, 11:49:06 AM
The Antifa says and does whatever they are paid to do.
Apparently, they are hired mercenaries. (Soros, DMC)
I have heard from so many sources about "these" people being paid to "do this or that" and "those" people being paid to march "hither and yond"....never met anyone in my life who claims to have been paid for anything. Never even heard of someone I know who knew of someone who knew someone who actually got paid. Is there any actual evidence for any of this, from..anywhere....of anytime?
QuoteIs there any actual evidence for any of this, from..anywhere....of anytime?
Ask George Soros' accountant. ;>)
Quote from: Shiranu on November 01, 2017, 01:25:46 PM
I really hope that is suppose to have a sarcasm tag.
You weren't alive then ... and I was a boy, not the man I am now. When I became a man by the time Saigon fell, I had a developed opinion. And it has continued to develop as we have reverted to all the 60s shit. I personally don't know what really happened, hence I support mercy, but that leads to no drama not No drama ...
All people deserve death, some time, some place, some way. I don't want to be the one to decide that. G-d or nature or fate decides for each person. We all get what we deserve (and all complain that they should never get what they deserve, and should live forever .. and get a pony).
But if you accept that the 60s students were Soviet agents, and all Soviet agents deserve death (the current meme renamed Russia) ... then you would have to agree, to my retrospective proposal. And how to apply it to college students today. If you don't accept the Soviet/Russian meme, or you don't accept that college demonstrators are traitorous agents of foreign powers ... then not so much.
I offer a dialectic, not sarcasm. Either the premises are false, or they deserve severe punishment. As a Left revolutionary, you of course would show mercy on all revolutionaries (traitors) at least if they are D-party. Revolutionaries reward treason, if it is on the right side ;-)
I don't accept that anything of the last 60 years is true, in the sense that I don't know if it is or it isn't. Either you support treason or you do not. Antisocial types always support treason etc. Are you antisocial? Either you support punishment or you do not. Are you merciful? it is easy to be merciful to the innocent, more challenging with the guilty. As a revolutionary, you should want to punish the status quo, for not being revolutionary, they are a hindrance to your city on a hill, your bright shining lie. Any cursory study of the first half of the 20th century would confirm this.
As the John Brown of Western Civilization, and given the Biblical derived injunction ... "fiat justitia ruat caelum" what say you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_justitia_ruat_caelum
Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 12:13:54 PM
The alt-right doesn't think of them are bored or middle class. Bored middle class is exactly what they pry for...
These are angry people protesting a movement of stupids out (like Steve Bannon) to wreck society to remake it nationalist and authoritarian. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for our children under a nazi-like Amerika.
The American people are going to get a dictatorship, whether they want one or not. And even those who want a dictatorship, aren't getting the dictator they want. Dust bin of history is upon us.
There was a coup Nov 1963 ... this was the result ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYK4jrhepdU
Best movie about Nam. And I don't support that war, or any other war, if it is by choice.
I weep for all fighting men and women ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owK1qxDselE
Are you not entertained?
Quote from: pr126 on November 01, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
Ask George Soros' accountant. ;>)
There is no evidence, if D party people are guilty. There is no evidence that the Vietnam war ever occurred ;-)
I remember those demonstrations against the Vietnam War.
Now, after 16 years in Afghanistan why not?
Quote from: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 09:01:40 PM
The American people are going to get a dictatorship, whether they want one or not. And even those who want a dictatorship, aren't getting the dictator they want. Dust bin of history is upon us.
there are certain americans who believe they are under a dictatorship now with the current presidency.
Quote from: Munch on November 02, 2017, 10:00:58 AM
there are certain americans who believe they are under a dictatorship now with the current presidency.
I wouldn't say we're there, but it's pretty obvious he'd like to
be a dictator, even that he thinks he already is. Seems pretty evident from his demonstrated lack of understanding of how our government (theoretically) works -- he appears to think it's by tweeted
diktat.
Quote from: Munch on November 02, 2017, 10:00:58 AM
there are certain americans who believe they are under a dictatorship now with the current presidency.
They are ... but they are Rip Van Winkle ... this has been going on for over 200 years. But as snowflakes, I hate to think of their suffering, going from a mere hangnail, to a actual goose-step-o-rama.
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2017, 12:25:45 AM
I remember those demonstrations against the Vietnam War.
Now, after 16 years in Afghanistan why not?
Very good one. The Left loves warmongering, as long as they are the one's who get to do it. Apparently war mongering for opium, to be sold into Russia, is hippie.
Quote from: trdsf on November 02, 2017, 01:28:14 PM
I wouldn't say we're there, but it's pretty obvious he'd like to be a dictator, even that he thinks he already is. Seems pretty evident from his demonstrated lack of understanding of how our government (theoretically) works -- he appears to think it's by tweeted diktat.
Trump thinks that, as President, he should be in charge of all parts of government. This is routine for all all authoritarians. A drive for complete control seems to be inherent to his nature.
His lack of understanding of the structure of govt does not bother him as it is just an impediment to complete control. He wants to change government to suit his management.
I don't want to go too far on this concern, as the very structure of the US government is designed to thwart to success of wannabe dictators. But he IS trying...
Quote from: Cavebear on November 04, 2017, 01:18:19 AM
Trump thinks that, as President, he should be in charge of all parts of government. This is routine for all all authoritarians. A drive for complete control seems to be inherent to his nature.
His lack of understanding of the structure of govt does not bother him as it is just an impediment to complete control. He wants to change government to suit his management.
I don't want to go too far on this concern, as the very structure of the US government is designed to thwart to success of wannabe dictators. But he IS trying...
The government is caged by the CIA (Pretorian Guard). Don't worry, if a Caligula becomes Emperor, they will deal with it, but only after they are paid off by all sides.
Quote from: Baruch on November 04, 2017, 10:34:20 AM
The government is caged by the CIA (Pretorian Guard). Don't worry, if a Caligula becomes Emperor, they will deal with it, but only after they are paid off by all sides.
A Pretorian Guard would be as dangerous as a Emperor. They created most of them.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 04:42:44 AM
A Pretorian Guard would be as dangerous as a Emperor. They created most of them.
Exactly. It is difficult to purge the people who put you in office (see Claudius). We have had a Pretorian Guard since the FBI was created, subsequently augmented by the CIA and the rest of the three letter alphabet. Now even the dog catcher department has their own cop division.
Quote from: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 06:53:08 AM
Exactly. It is difficult to purge the people who put you in office (see Claudius). We have had a Pretorian Guard since the FBI was created, subsequently augmented by the CIA and the rest of the three letter alphabet. Now even the dog catcher department has their own cop division.
Your last few sentences are mostly conspiracy nonsense. The FBI and CIA are under a lot more control than you imagine. And we don't even HAVE a dogcatcher in my county.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 07:03:17 AM
Your last few sentences are mostly conspiracy nonsense. The FBI and CIA are under a lot more control than you imagine. And we don't even HAVE a dogcatcher in my county.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund
Yes, the Rothschilds control the FBI and CIA.
Quote from: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 07:20:16 AM
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376053/united-states-swat-john-fund
Yes, the Rothschilds control the FBI and CIA.
And I suppose you think man has never walked on the moon? Are you really that bad off?
Quote from: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 07:46:39 AM
And I suppose you think man has never walked on the moon? Are you really that bad off?
Actually the astronauts kind of bounced around ... walking isn't a good description. But you already knew that.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/pushes-conspiracy-theories-texas-attack-171107220808987.html
Talks about how, after tragedies (or even during "regular" times), the alt-right has taken to photoshopping that the criminal in question has links to Antifa and spreading it across the web... the article also points out that Russia Today, a site that some liberals get their information about America on, also is furthering the narrative that these attacks are orchestrated by Antifa when there is either no evidence or it is an out-right lie that that is the case.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 08, 2017, 07:27:41 PM
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/pushes-conspiracy-theories-texas-attack-171107220808987.html
Talks about how, after tragedies (or even during "regular" times), the alt-right has taken to photoshopping that the criminal in question has links to Antifa and spreading it across the web... the article also points out that Russia Today, a site that some liberals get their information about America on, also is furthering the narrative that these attacks are orchestrated by Antifa when there is either no evidence or it is an out-right lie that that is the case.
Pravda = NYT, Tass = Washington Post.
But if you like anti-Fa ... go join it. Same as any other Jonestown kool-aid group.
Not believing lies about someone doesn't mean you like them.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 08, 2017, 07:54:43 PM
Not believing lies about someone doesn't mean you like them.
Voters need to stop wanting to be lied to. Then the lies will stop. Also stop blaming politicians for everything, the voters aren't innocent.
Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2017, 05:33:08 AM
Voters need to stop wanting to be lied to. Then the lies will stop. Also stop blaming politicians for everything, the voters aren't innocent.
The alt-right isn't politicians (yet).
Quote from: Shiranu on November 09, 2017, 07:37:01 AM
The alt-right isn't politicians (yet).
MSM = alt-left (except for Fox). It is all ... alt-X ... cointelpro for CIA etc.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 08, 2017, 07:27:41 PM
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/pushes-conspiracy-theories-texas-attack-171107220808987.html
Talks about how, after tragedies (or even during "regular" times), the alt-right has taken to photoshopping that the criminal in question has links to Antifa and spreading it across the web... the article also points out that Russia Today, a site that some liberals get their information about America on, also is furthering the narrative that these attacks are orchestrated by Antifa when there is either no evidence or it is an out-right lie that that is the case.
I can surely say that Russia Today, a most obvious propaganda tool of the Russian Government has no effect on me whatsoever. Same with the China version. It amazes me that anyone could be so gullible to pay attention to either. And I hope no one does.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 01:44:07 AM
I can surely say that Russia Today, a most obvious propaganda tool of the Russian Government has no effect on me whatsoever. Same with the China version. It amazes me that anyone could be so gullible to pay attention to either. And I hope no one does.
Only the useful idiots are influenced. But then NYT and Washington Post are the American equivalents. I ignore them too.
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:14:17 AM
Only the useful idiots are influenced. But then NYT and Washington Post are the American equivalents. I ignore them too.
I will place Washington Post facts against Russia Today claims any day on any subject at any time. The former is researched and dedicated to accuracy. The latter is an utter fact-free instrument of a foreign government known to use disinformation for political ends.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:22:45 AM
I will place Washington Post facts against Russia Today claims any day on any subject at any time. The former is researched and dedicated to accuracy. The latter is an utter fact-free instrument of a foreign government known to use disinformation for political ends.
You are a scoundrel who wraps himself in the flag .. but doesn't beat a Bible ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:26:17 AM
You are a scoundrel who wraps himself in the flag .. but doesn't beat a Bible ;-)
Wrapping myself in the flag would be the easy way to go. I demand more of myself than that. Fact-checked information, thoughtfulness, uncertainty.
I have never said "my country, right or wrong". I say my country when it is right and correct things when it is wrong.
I request an apology for "scoundrel"... I might be the most consistently ethical and rational person you have ever met. You just really don't like the idea that an atheist (or any such person) like that exists.
It offends your sense that we are all sinners, doesn't it?
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:35:55 AM
Wrapping myself in the flag would be the easy way to go. I demand more of myself than that. Fact-checked information, thoughtfulness, uncertainty.
I have never said "my country, right or wrong". I say my country when it is right and correct things when it is wrong.
I request an apology for "scoundrel"... I might be the most consistently ethical and rational person you have ever met. You just really don't like the idea that an atheist (or any such person) like that exists.
It offends your sense that we are all sinners, doesn't it?
Scoundrel as in "Snidely Whiplash". Otherwise, yes, an apology, you big softy you. And no, everyone isn't a sinner. There is no sin. Just stupid megafauna. At least microbes have an excuse (no nervous system). Well, our country has done plenty bad things, in our own lifetime, not just in the distant past. I have to find a way to get my head around that ... again and again. I am too old to be Shiranu.
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:37:59 AM
Scoundrel as in "Snidely Whiplash". Otherwise, yes, an apology, you big softy you. And no, everyone isn't a sinner. There is no sin. Just stupid megafauna. At least microbes have an excuse (no nervous system). Well, our country has done plenty bad things, in our own lifetime, not just in the distant past. I have to find a way to get my head around that ... again and again. I am too old to be Shiranu.
"
There is no sin" I am amazed you say that. Religion depends of the concept of sin, original or new.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:51:09 AM
"There is no sin" I am amazed you say that. Religion depends of the concept of sin, original or new.
Your view of religion, and people ... is too narrow. You are never too old to learn, are you?
I have stated before that I accept self and mutually destructive behavior. I don't like it, but I have to accept it, as a fact. So why bother with sin, morals, ethics, laws ... it is all bullshit, unless you are part of the injustice system. I am sick and tired of the virtue signaling. People do whatever they want to do, and rationalize the be-jesus out of it. Either their actions are supported by "the rules" or they are not. And they come up with a thousand reasons for selective interpretation if it isn't supported. And get all smug if it is supported.
And yes, an orthodox Jew wouldn't post like I do ... but then I admit to being a heretic. I just hate being clueless or hypocritical.
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:31:33 AM
Your view of religion, and people ... is to narrow. You are never too old to learn, are you?
I have stated before that I accept self and mutually destructive behavior. I don't like it, but I have to accept it, as a fact. So why bother with sin, morals, ethics, laws ... it is all bullshit, unless you are part of the injustice system.
If there is no sin (human weakness, needs, injustice), who needs a deity? I'm not being flippant. Humans all seem to pray to a divinity for assistance. If none is needed, really why would anyone pray?
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 10:36:00 AM
If there is no sin (human weakness, needs, injustice), who needs a deity? I'm not being flippant. Humans all seem to pray to a divinity for assistance. If none is needed, really why would anyone pray?
I don't have a sky daddy. Again, your model while common, is too narrow. And prayer can be for assistance, but that is a vain prayer. G-d is an asshole ... even Jupiter was seen as such in Roman paganism. You think that the pagan Romans didn't yuck it up about prayer?
Prayer is about auto-hypnosis. It isn't about changing G-d, it is about changing yourself ... into something more positive. The macrocosm as a person makes sense to me, though not as obvious compared to each microcosm is a person (not a thing). But that doesn't make the macrocosm (not universe), the sum total of all of humanity in space and time (think Omega Point of Teilhard de Chardin) isn't your fishing buddy. Though more accurately the macrocosm is the sum total of life ... it is Life. Human social behavior, including religious behavior, is a lot of dysfunction. Like putting all your money on Lotto tickets because one has a gambling addiction.
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:42:07 AM
I don't have a sky daddy. Again, your model while common, is too narrow. And prayer can be for assistance, but that is a vain prayer. G-d is an asshole ... even Jupiter was seen as such in Roman paganism. You think that the pagan Romans didn't yuck it up about prayer?
Prayer is about auto-hypnosis. It isn't about changing G-d, it is about changing yourself ... into something more positive. The macrocosm as a person makes sense to me, though not as obvious that each microcosm is a person (not a thing). But that doesn't make the macrocosm (not universe), the sum total of all of humanity in space and time (think Omega Point of Teilhard de Chardin) isn't your fishing buddy. Though more accurately the macrocosm is the sum total of life ... it is Life.
So, you are a meditationalist? Prayer is an affirmation?