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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Goon on October 03, 2017, 12:37:53 AM

Title: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Goon on October 03, 2017, 12:37:53 AM
The God of the Bible is an ignorant one. He left two newborn adults in a magical garden, with the ability to doom mankind through coercion. An evil snake, that he was shocked by, tricked them into wanting to know things. Sin in the garden before the fall of man. Satan wasn't even cast down till Ezekial, so it wasn't him. Even if Christians can prove in the book that it was Satan, how didn't God specifically blame satan and not just curse snakes to no longer walk? lol. The Bible is just stupid. His ignorance doomed mankind, yet we're to blame. The God of Christianity is actually quite scary. Imagine that reality? Yikes. It's good that the idea of God is a dumb one, and that Noah's Ark is their answer to evolution. But back on point, God knows, yet he doesn't. The end of this process brings people with a brain to this point: God of the Bible is shown to send billions to hell, so he can make some predestined friends for Heaven the hard way. The entire thing just makes me want to be religious, so i can be too stupid to think. That must be nice. Jeesh. How is this seriously believed by 3 billion-ish people?

I might as well make another point: A universe from nothing can be scientifically explained by saying, that we as a species have been stunted by religious ideology to the point of just unearthing reality within the last 200 years. Reality is still barely enjoyed by most people. We're just now making progress. A universe from nothing can obviously be proven by studying the majority of people and their priorities. Most people want Jesus or Allah, without ever being honest. If einstein was born 200 years from now, we'd have the answer. He couldn't make ever inch of progress in his life time after religion shit all over our collective consciousness for so long, and continued to up until his death. We're just now breaking free. It's obvious that a universe from nothing is quantum physics on a level Einstein would need some help prior to get to. anywho.. hello atheists, much love. the idea that outside space and physics lurks God in eternal utopia, is an idea i can't get behind. Time is a little dicey of a concept, but again, we're only so smart. A God from nothing is much dumber. Super powers, after existing forever decided to get into gardening.. etc... lol
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2017, 06:58:24 AM
Religions were formed when the universe seemed much smaller.  Astronomy did blow the whole thing up, like the bragging frog in Aesop's fable.

Voltaire said .. “Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities”

Theologians love paradox, and counting angels on the heads of pins ;-)

My POV is free will, not predestination or predetermination.  Those two came out of theology, not from the Bible for example.  Greek geeks thinking too hard.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: aitm on October 03, 2017, 08:20:53 AM
Absolutely. Religion is one crazy ass notion. I could get behind the idea of a "creator type thingie" but there has to be a better answer than, "he has always been and existed before everything". That to me is the deal breaker. Perhaps the word "everything" is being used subjectively as in, everything that pertains to living animals on this particular planet...that could possibly gain a subtle nod. But to exist prior to anything and to have always exist somehow with knowledge of everything that will exist before he could conceive the idea of any of it, is a little to way out there for me. It would be like suggesting a Squirrel could conjure up the Titanic complete with buffet baskets of plastic wrapped crackers, and engines complete with water dampening prop shafts.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 03, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
Most Christians redefine predestination to mean "God's foreknowledge." It's a yet another way Christians let God off the hook for being an inhumane monster, even though the Bible clearly says that he prevents people from coming to the faith by hardening their hearts. Paul even directly addressed their number one objection to predestination in Romans 9:19-21, but that just goes right over their heads.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2017, 01:26:24 PM
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Absolutely. Religion is one crazy ass notion. I could get behind the idea of a "creator type thingie" but there has to be a better answer than, "he has always been and existed before everything". That to me is the deal breaker. Perhaps the word "everything" is being used subjectively as in, everything that pertains to living animals on this particular planet...that could possibly gain a subtle nod. But to exist prior to anything and to have always exist somehow with knowledge of everything that will exist before he could conceive the idea of any of it, is a little to way out there for me. It would be like suggesting a Squirrel could conjure up the Titanic complete with buffet baskets of plastic wrapped crackers, and engines complete with water dampening prop shafts.

Gods as ancient aliens ... of course wouldn't have existed forever, and wouldn't be responsible for the Big Bang (if that is what happened).  They would simply be more advanced, maybe whale people who go harpooning for humans ;-)  And yes, magic tricks are fine, but conjuring is a stage trick ... it isn't what is appears to be (it is real however).  When our view of gods were more modest, and our knowledge of astronomy etc much less, a conventional god was more reasonable sounding.  However mankind by their very nature, are unreasonable.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on October 03, 2017, 02:01:54 PM
I advocate reading the Bible - maybe it should even be mandatory for everyone. It was the Bible itself that convinced me that it wasn't anything like the word of any God. It couldn't possibly be God's method of communicating with us puny humans, it's entirely too confusing and contradictory. And it makes God out to be a real monster (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=164.0), even worse than any of the other horrible monsters people have invented. If the Bible's God really existed as described, life would be completely intolerable, and I, for one, wouldn't allow myself to live in such a world. Hell, the world as it is, without such a God, is bad enough!

Quote from: Joseph Lewis
It is our duty to expose the Bible. We must continue to tell the truth about the Bible. We must continue to enlighten the people. And if after the true facts are known, there are some who still insist the Bible is good enough for them, they are welcome to it.
Quote from: Luther Burbank
Let us read the Bible without the ill-fitting colored spectacles of theology, just as we read other books, using our own judgement and reason, listening to the voice within, not to the noisy babel without. Most of us possess discriminating reasoning powers. Can we use them or must we be fed by others like babies?
Quote from: Robert G. Ingersoll
If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly the teachings of the New, he would be insane.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2017, 04:27:12 PM
Yes, the Bible, as an anthology of ancient Jewish literature (with lots of chutzpah) ... isn't for Gentiles, and isn't for children.  That is why most Christians only let the kiddies get educated via those stick on felt board arrangements led by a little old lady teaching a very juvenile version of the stories ;-)  When my daughter visited another church, when she was about 6, and they were teaching reading by having the kids read directly from the actual adult Bible, I disapproved.  Tricks ARE for kids.  A Scotch breakfast (oatmeal and scotch) is for adults.

Ancient pagans in teaching their various myths, you have to wonder what age they started doing that storytelling.  Probably pretty young, because the puritanical POV came out of the Middle East, not from violence and orgy filled pagan Europe ;-)

In the South, Sunday School was originally for adults, to teach them to read and write, using the Bible.  That and for wives to keep their husbands away from the moonshine, for a short while.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on October 03, 2017, 06:14:29 PM
My Bible has warning stickers (https://www.google.com/search?q=bible+warning+stickers&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjrp_avNXWAhWLjlQKHUsHBAIQ_AUICygC&biw=1024&bih=631) all over it, just in case any kids ever get hold of it.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on October 03, 2017, 06:16:29 PM
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  That and for wives to keep their husbands away from the moonshine, for a short while.
I bet that didn't work very well...
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2017, 08:49:51 PM
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I bet that didn't work very well...

Well they did like the preaching, if the preaching mentioned the heretical view that the reason Blacks are dark, is because of their descent from Cain.  Doesn't take much education or sobriety to follow a simple sermon ;-)  These were simple people, as one of our members repeatedly mentions.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 02:57:19 AM
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Well they did like the preaching, if the preaching mentioned the heretical view that the reason Blacks are dark, is because of their descent from Cain.  Doesn't take much education or sobriety to follow a simple sermon ;-)  These were simple people, as one of our members repeatedly mentions.

Africans are dark because they evolved a melanin resistance to strong sunlight.  Africans who left Africa into Asia needed more sunlight exposure and those who genetically had less did better.  The more genetically mutated ones with less melanin did better.  Eventually all the successful ones in higher altitudes were whiter to absorb as much sunlight as possible. 

Skin color has nothing to do with superiority, just required sunlight exposure.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 07:14:50 AM
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Africans are dark because they evolved a melanin resistance to strong sunlight.  Africans who left Africa into Asia needed more sunlight exposure and those who genetically had less did better.  The more genetically mutated ones with less melanin did better.  Eventually all the successful ones in higher altitudes were whiter to absorb as much sunlight as possible. 

Skin color has nothing to do with superiority, just required sunlight exposure.

Yes, I think everyone here knows that.  The relatives of a certain AF member, don't read our stuff.  Too busy playin' the banjo.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 07:16:48 AM
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Yes, I think everyone here knows that.  The relatives of a certain AF member, don't read our stuff.  Too busy playin' the banjo.

If everyone here knows that, I am glad.  But most people don't seem to.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 07:24:10 AM
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If everyone here knows that, I am glad.  But most people don't seem to.

The wider world is dark, we must spread our Light.  Don't look up, it is a giant boy with a giant magnifying glass ... aiiii!
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 07:47:59 AM
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The wider world is dark, we must spread our Light.  Don't look up, it is a giant boy with a giant magnifying glass ... aiiii!

You seem to be much more afraid of the wide world than I am.  And save your weak humor for others. please. 
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 12:57:21 PM
I was mocking all you 200 IQ atheists .. and I am not always trying to be funny.

I am Jewish.  Jews = kosher evil.  Gentiles = evil evil.  You only think that I am to the left of Pr126 ... I am to his right ;-))

But am I afraid?  Not too much at my age.  I have seen too much, and don't want to see much more.  I blame TV.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 01:13:41 PM
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I was mocking all you 200 IQ atheists .. and I am not always trying to be funny.

Only 140, please...  I like to stay modest.

I am Jewish.  Jews = kosher evil.  Gentiles = evil evil.  You only think that I am to the left of Pr126 ... I am to his right ;-))

DUH!!!  The only thing that confuses some people is the that your write rather well for religio-nazi...

But am I afraid?  Not too much at my age.  I have seen too much, and don't want to see much more.  I blame TV.

You want to see and learn more, possibly to escape the sins of your youth.   Otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing with me.  LOL!

Have a good day mate...

Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 01:32:19 PM
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You want to see and learn more, possibly to escape the sins of your youth.   Otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing with me.  LOL!

Have a good day mate...

Yes, lunch is over, time to go back protecting the Freeworld from Pod People.  Also .. you had more HTML problems ... genius ;-))
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 01:55:41 PM
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Yes, lunch is over, time to go back protecting the Freeworld from Pod People.  Also .. you had more HTML problems ... genius ;-))

After 36 hours online, I really don't worry about it too much.  Thinking about replies is more fun than diligence.  Though correcting (and failing) to correct all my typos gets harder.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: fencerider on October 10, 2017, 12:26:22 AM
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Voltaire said .. “Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities”
There you go talking about Trump again🤔
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 04:57:28 AM
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There you go talking about Trump again🤔

Trump is the master of absurdities.  You tell he is lying when his lips move.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 07:09:19 AM
People really shouldn't post whole threads about things they are so very ignorant of.

We have freedom because anything else would be evil.

Freedom in no way contradicts destiny.

Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 11:05:24 AM
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People really shouldn't post whole threads about things they are so very ignorant of.

We have freedom because anything else would be evil.

Freedom in no way contradicts destiny.

Depends on how you define pre-destination vs pre-determination.  They aren't the same.  In pre-destination (destiny) people are free, but G-d in omnipotence, knows what you will choose.  In pre-determination, G-d chooses for you ... and yes, that would be evil.

This is a problem in the development of Islam, between Mutazilites and Ash'arites.  With Mutazilites, Allah gives humans and jinn the ability to choose.  Pre-fall, even angels have the ability to choose.  Iblis chose wrongly ... because he didn't accept the Ash'arite position ;-p  In the Ash'arite position, something is good, because Allah arbitrarily chooses it, not because it is good itself.  In the Mutazilite position, something is good in itself, and because Allah is good, Allah chooses it.  The question remains, does Allah in the Mutazilite position, have free will to not choose what is good?  So if Allah, in the Ash'arite POV, choose that the prayers must be done while standing on one's head, then that is what Muslims must do, even though that would be bad from a human perspective.  ISIS is the culmination of Ash'arite theology.  For the Ash'arite ... the idea that Allah has ontology superior to Allah ... is intolerable.  Kind of like Zeus vs the Three Fates.  In Greek mythology, Zeus had to take extreme measures to avoid being toppled by his own child, having twice conceived ... by taking the embryo of Bacchus into his thigh for further development, and having swallowed the embryo of Athena.  But Athena can't be stopped, she is born from Zeus' head after a massive headache.

In the Iblis story, Allah created the angels in Heaven, and told them, "bow to nothing except me".  Then Allah created Adam ... in Heaven, and is going around showing off his new creation to the angels.  Allah says, "bow to Adam".  All the angels comply (as Ash'arites) but Iblis does not.  Iblis says, "you said before, bow to nothing except you, and you can't contradict yourself" (Iblis thinks this is a test).  This disobedience gets Iblis exiled to Earth.  Iblis is a Mutazilite.  Can you guess that Ash'arism is the majority theology in Islam?  What Allah, and Ash'arites require is blind obedience, not people who can think for themselves.  It is evil.  In rabbinic Judaism we have the opposite story, a council of rabbis, by majority vote, can trump Jehovah ... because Jehovah can't trump scripture.  Mutazilite Muslims, and rabbinic Jews allow productive free will.  In fact, in Genesis, there is no reason to think that G-d has omniscience.  Why would Jehovah call out ... "Adam and Eve, show yourselves".  Why would Jehovah ask Adam and Eve ... "What have you done?".

I accept neither pre-determinism nor pre-destinarianism.  I think you support pre-destinarianism.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 29, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
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People really shouldn't post whole threads about things they are so very ignorant of.

We have freedom because anything else would be evil.

Freedom in no way contradicts destiny.

How typical. The "you're not a Christian, so you don't know what you're talking about" dismissal. And also typical, instead of responding to intelligent arguments, you completely ignore them and insert your own mindless one. You believe in free will because you believe that a lack of free will is evil. You believe because you believe.

Free will is logically impossible, with or without a god, and especially with a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. In fact, a lot of things people take for granted are impossible with an omnipotent and omniscient god. Such a being would not be able to experience many human emotions, such as anger, sadness, and regret. We become angry when we are taken off guard or feel powerless. A god who knows all and can do whatever he wants would not know what anger feels like.

In addition, many verses of the Bible explicitly state that God has control over all our destinies. And yes, that does contradict freedom. He hardens hearts so that people are unable to accept his words and turn to him. We are God's playthings, according to the Bible. Before we're even born, he predestines some of us for Heaven and others for destruction (Romans 9:19-21, if you haven't read my previous post). That is exactly the kind of evil people like you created the concept of free will for, to try to make God look like less of an asshole than he is described as in his holy text.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 12:40:07 PM
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How typical. The "you're not a Christian, so you don't know what you're talking about" dismissal. And also typical, instead of responding to intelligent arguments, you completely ignore them and insert your own mindless one. You believe in free will because you believe that a lack of free will is evil. You believe because you believe.

Free will is logically impossible, with or without a god, and especially with a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. In fact, a lot of things people take for granted are impossible with an omnipotent and omniscient god. Such a being would not be able to experience many human emotions, such as anger, sadness, and regret. We become angry when we are taken off guard or feel powerless. A god who knows all and can do whatever he wants would not know what anger feels like.

In addition, many verses of the Bible explicitly state that God has control over all our destinies. And yes, that does contradict freedom. He hardens hearts so that people are unable to accept his words and turn to him. We are God's playthings, according to the Bible. Before we're even born, he predestines some of us for Heaven and others for destruction (Romans 9:19-21, if you haven't read my previous post). That is exactly the kind of evil people like you created the concept of free will for, to try to make God look like less of an asshole than he is described as in his holy text.
I said nothing of the sort.

Most Christians don't understand it, so being a "christian" is irrelevant.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on October 29, 2017, 01:07:18 PM
How do Christians comprehend free will and predestination? 

Christians mostly comprehend them, but Christians don't comprehend the implications each one has for the other, so they can't understand their mutual exclusivity.  It's a complicated thing for them because while they claim God gives man free will, they don't come right out and  actually claim that predestination exists.  Instead, they design God with foreknowledge, which requires the existence of predestination.  However, they don't use the word predestination or talk about it, and act like foreknowledge has no relationship to predestination at all.  So the contradiction is unnoticed.

The argument then becomes:

God has foreknowledge.
God gives man freewill.

Notice this syllogism contains no deduction or therefore statement.  It's simply two mutually exclusive assertions parroted from doctrine.  It doesn't argue anything and its logical implications remain unnoticed just outside the limit of Christian comprehension.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 03:18:00 PM
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How typical. The "you're not a Christian, so you don't know what you're talking about" dismissal. And also typical, instead of responding to intelligent arguments, you completely ignore them and insert your own mindless one. You believe in free will because you believe that a lack of free will is evil. You believe because you believe.

Free will is logically impossible, with or without a god, and especially with a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. In fact, a lot of things people take for granted are impossible with an omnipotent and omniscient god. Such a being would not be able to experience many human emotions, such as anger, sadness, and regret. We become angry when we are taken off guard or feel powerless. A god who knows all and can do whatever he wants would not know what anger feels like.

In addition, many verses of the Bible explicitly state that God has control over all our destinies. And yes, that does contradict freedom. He hardens hearts so that people are unable to accept his words and turn to him. We are God's playthings, according to the Bible. Before we're even born, he predestines some of us for Heaven and others for destruction (Romans 9:19-21, if you haven't read my previous post). That is exactly the kind of evil people like you created the concept of free will for, to try to make God look like less of an asshole than he is described as in his holy text.

My movement of my hand, is my refutation of predetermination.  I don't need to believe in anything, including free will.  Belief is weak, fact is strong.  The Bible says many things, being a discordant anthology.  But that part which encourages irresponsibility "G-d made me do it" ... is devilry.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 03:18:50 PM
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I said nothing of the sort.

Most Christians don't understand it, so being a "christian" is irrelevant.

All supposed affiliations are straw men.  Light a match, burn them down.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
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How do Christians comprehend free will and predestination? 

Christians mostly comprehend them, but Christians don't comprehend the implications each one has for the other, so they can't understand their mutual exclusivity.  It's a complicated thing for them because while they claim God gives man free will, they don't come right out and  actually claim that predestination exists.  Instead, they design God with foreknowledge, which requires the existence of predestination.  However, they don't use the word predestination or talk about it, and act like foreknowledge has no relationship to predestination at all.  So the contradiction is unnoticed.

The argument then becomes:

God has foreknowledge.
God gives man freewill.

Notice this syllogism contains no deduction or therefore statement.  It's simply two mutually exclusive assertions parroted from doctrine.  It doesn't argue anything and its logical implications remain unnoticed just outside the limit of Christian comprehension.

Outside lay comprehension ... not of Aquinas etc.  And I don't accept the first item, but accept the second.  With Protestantism, we went from being ruled by illiterate clergy to illiterate laity.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 29, 2017, 03:38:49 PM
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I said nothing of the sort.

Most Christians don't understand it, so being a "christian" is irrelevant.

Regardless, choosing to focus on the person instead of the contents of their arguments is a sure sign that someone doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 03:46:51 PM
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Regardless, choosing to focus on the person instead of the contents of their arguments is a sure sign that someone doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Agreed.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 29, 2017, 03:47:12 PM
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My movement of my hand, is my refutation of predetermination.  I don't need to believe in anything, including free will.  Belief is weak, fact is strong.  The Bible says many things, being a discordant anthology.  But that part which encourages irresponsibility "G-d made me do it" ... is devilry.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 04:55:13 PM
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If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?
There is no error in designed freedom given.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 04:56:57 PM
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If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?

Absolutely not ... on omnipotence and omniscience, nor do I agree with Drew in regards to man-made universes in a PC.  Descartes discussed the notion of an evil demon who decided everything:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

Though I do have to think on the omnipresence of G-d ... but who is everywhere, is also no where ... hence presence of such is not obvious.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 04:57:42 PM
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There is no error in designed freedom given.

Moralists would say that free will is an error, if not creation itself.

I have to consider ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 06:10:14 PM
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Moralists would say that free will is an error, if not creation itself.

I have to consider ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
Moralists would be wrong.

How evil would it be for us to be bound to any law?

GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on October 29, 2017, 06:45:09 PM
I find very little difference between setting up creation in such a way that it plays out according to a divine plan, and "imprisoning" creation. It's merely semantics. Either God is complacent in the evil man commits, or he is powerless to prevent it and there's no meaningful divine plan.

Is man able to fuck up God's divine plan, assuming one exists? Either answer holds very interesting consequences.

Theodicy is still a problem for you folks even after two thousand years. I'm not holding my breath for any answers.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hydra009 on October 29, 2017, 06:46:38 PM
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There is no error in designed freedom given.
That sounds suspiciously like an article of faith.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 07:40:46 PM
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That sounds suspiciously like an article of faith.
Just a truthful statement.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: aitm on October 29, 2017, 07:50:15 PM
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GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

And not content to allow man to "d"evolve on his own, he then "created" the devil to further tempt those whose misery he purposefully designed so he could enjoy watching the misery and fear he himself can never feel. You make a greater case for the hatred of your "god" than "he" himself can.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 08:30:29 PM
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And not content to allow man to "d"evolve on his own, he then "created" the devil to further tempt those whose misery he purposefully designed so he could enjoy watching the misery and fear he himself can never feel. You make a greater case for the hatred of your "god" than "he" himself can.
The devil?

Freedom lies within the vessel,  and with it; the potential to seek out and or follow whichever inclinations you desire.

You too seem to speak of what you don't actually know.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on October 29, 2017, 08:32:57 PM
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Just a truthful statement.
Actually, article of faith is correct.  Sincere, maybe.  Truthful?  I don't think that qualifies as truth, unless you define truth as belief, but that's incorrect usage.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on October 29, 2017, 09:08:36 PM
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Just a truthful statement.
I don't remember reading any 'truthful' statements from you.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on October 29, 2017, 09:10:02 PM
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You too seem to speak of what you don't actually know.
And you do. ??
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
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Moralists would be wrong.

How evil would it be for us to be bound to any law?

GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

I don't accept omniscience.  It is denied in Genesis.  And Creation isn't imprisoned, again see Genesis.  G-d doesn't know the future, because of free will etc.  I don't accept any laws, sorry.  The legalistic model of reality only works for crooked lawyers, jurists and politicians.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 08:14:21 AM
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And you do. ??
Yes
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 08:15:14 AM
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I don't accept omniscience.  It is denied in Genesis.  And Creation isn't imprisoned, again see Genesis.  G-d doesn't know the future, because of free will etc.  I don't accept any laws, sorry.  The legalistic model of reality only works for crooked lawyers, jurists and politicians.
There are readily observable laws that bind existence
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on October 30, 2017, 08:59:06 AM
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Yes
I'm sure.  All I've ever seen you post is fiction which you believe to be true. 
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 30, 2017, 11:25:14 AM
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Just a truthful statement.

Are you going to provide any actual arguments to support your claim, or are you just going to say it is so?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 01:40:59 PM
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Are you going to provide any actual arguments to support your claim, or are you just going to say it is so?
My argument is that our freedom or freewill is the product of the will of GOD.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on October 30, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
That's not an argument, it's an assertion.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 01:56:41 PM
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That's not an argument, it's an assertion.
Well then my argument would be that destiny and freedom are not contradictory.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on October 30, 2017, 02:02:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 30, 2017, 02:46:58 PM
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Well then my argument would be that destiny and freedom are not contradictory.

And your evidence would be...? You can't just claim two obviously contradictory things are not really contradictory. Demonstrate it through logic, examples, evidence, etc.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 04:55:43 PM
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And your evidence would be...? You can't just claim two obviously contradictory things are not really contradictory. Demonstrate it through logic, examples, evidence, etc.
If GOD is omniscient and we have freewill then concluding that it is the will of that which created all existence for us to have said freedom is a simple and logical. Obviously one would have to believe in an omniscient creator of all existence for that to be even a possibility to them.

I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.

Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on October 30, 2017, 08:03:57 PM
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If GOD is omniscient and we have freewill then concluding that it is the will of that which created all existence for us to have said freedom is a simple and logical. Obviously one would have to believe in an omniscient creator of all existence for that to be even a possibility to them.

I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.
Oh, Wow!  Let me pick myself up off the floor--the crystal clear truth of those arguments just floored me!!  The scales just dropped from my eyes!! 

Damn Pops, with arguments like that how can anybody not see that there is a God????

Pops, if a fact walked up and bit you in the butt, you'd still not see it.  Your ignorance boarders on stupidity.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 30, 2017, 09:04:37 PM
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If GOD is omniscient and we have freewill then concluding that it is the will of that which created all existence for us to have said freedom is a simple and logical. Obviously one would have to believe in an omniscient creator of all existence for that to be even a possibility to them.

I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.

Can God create a rock he can't lift too?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 09:46:00 PM
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Can God create a rock he can't lift too?
Omniscience, nor the understanding there of, is limited to word games or parlor tricks.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: fencerider on October 31, 2017, 12:59:11 AM
Where in the Bible does it say that that god is omniscient?

course we all know that the god of the Bible doesn’t always allow freewill. He intentionally manipulated Pharoah just so he could show of his plague tricks with Moses. He even manipulated Pharoah a final time so he would have an excuse to kill Egyptian boys. There are many other references in the Bible that talk about god manipulatng someone to do something for him... all the way up to blinding people from the truth to keep them from repenting
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 01:25:02 AM
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Where in the Bible does it say that that god is omniscient?

course we all know that the god of the Bible doesn’t always allow freewill. He intentionally manipulated Pharoah just so he could show of his plague tricks with Moses. He even manipulated Pharoah a final time so he would have an excuse to kill Egyptian boys. There are many other references in the Bible that talk about god manipulatng someone to do something for him... all the way up to blinding people from the truth to keep them from repenting

If there is a true deity, it knows and controls all that it chooses to control.  And choosing not to control is also control.

If not, there isn't. 

I see no evidence of the first.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 06:41:33 AM
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Omniscience, nor the understanding there of, is limited to word games or parlor tricks.

Is that all you got?  Looks like mere words to me.  Is your living hand all the proof you need?  Works for me.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 07:47:08 AM
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Actually, article of faith is correct.  Sincere, maybe.  Truthful?  I don't think that qualifies as truth, unless you define truth as belief, but that's incorrect usage.
I do not define truth as belief and I understand actual belief to be lived out through word and action; not for self placement or benifit, or the sight of man.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 07:52:50 AM
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I do not define truth as belief and I understand actual belief to be lived out through word and action; not for self placement or benifit, or the sight of man.

Ah, but do you define belief as truth?  That is a question many theists struggle with more.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on October 31, 2017, 09:13:32 AM
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I do not define truth as belief and I understand actual belief to be lived out through word and action; not for self placement or benifit, or the sight of man.
Cavebear responded to this.  I can't because I don't know what you are talking about: 
Quote
I understand actual belief to be lived out through word and action; not for self placement or benifit, or the sight of man.

How does a grandiose description of a personal ethic justify that truth ≠ belief?  It sounds like a statement of humility, and that's fine and all, but non sequitur in logic is not considered good form.  At a minimum, parts of arguments have to relate to each other.

This sort of argument is typical theism, a bold statement followed by lots of words that sound all highfalutin' draw the observer's attention away from the issue under question, giving the observer something mysterious to ponder as the theist attempts to ward off rebuttal.  Whenever the theist loses his own train of thought, confusion and intellectual chaos is the result.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 09:29:47 AM
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Cavebear responded to this.  I can't because I don't know what you are talking about: 
How does a grandiose description of a personal ethic justify that truth ≠ belief?  It sounds like a statement of humility, and that's fine and all, but non sequitur in logic is not considered good form.  At a minimum, parts of arguments have to relate to each other.

This sort of argument is typical theism, a bold statement followed by lots of words that sound all highfalutin' draw the observer's attention away from the issue under question, giving the observer something mysterious to ponder as the theist attempts to ward off rebuttal.  Whenever the theist loses his own train of thought, confusion and intellectual chaos is the result.

Not to get off the subject, but how did you do that not equals sign thing?  Are there still the old DOS numerics available?

But aside from that, the basic style of theistic arguments IS evasion.  They can't get around the facts these days, so they resort to (as my Dad used to say - "Dilly, Dally. Dodge, and Dolittle") which is why I sort of assume they will gradually vanish like flat-earthers. 

And the sooner the quicker...
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on October 31, 2017, 09:42:42 AM
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Not to get off the subject, but how did you do that not equals sign thing?  Are there still the old DOS numerics available?

But aside from that, the basic style of theistic arguments IS evasion. 
Yes, but when I said it, it took more words.

As for the ≠ sign, I will admit I have no clue how it was originally done, so awhile back I scrolled over someone else's, copied it and put in a text file of similar things that I could paste into my own writings.

Here's another one...  "luminiferous æther."  I could never figure out how they squish the a and e together.  For that matter I don't know why the ancients started squishing them in the first place.  What's the point in squishing perfectly good letters together?  Just to seem all intellectual, I suppose.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 10:15:27 AM
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Yes, but when I said it, it took more words.

As for the ≠ sign, I will admit I have no clue how it was originally done, so awhile back I scrolled over someone else's, copied it and put in a text file of similar things that I could paste into my own writings.

Here's another one...  "luminiferous æther."  I could never figure out how they squish the a and e together.  For that matter I don't know why the ancients started squishing them in the first place.  What's the point in squishing perfectly good letters together?  Just to seem all intellectual, I suppose.

Copied and saved?  As my Aussie friends would say "gobsmacked"!  I could never keep a file alive for great stuff like that.

The "ae" thing is a slightly different vowel, like "ei" in either. (between "ee" and "ii" if I understand it right.    Picked that up from a linguistics book.  Supposedly there are at least a few dozen different vowels (see the details on the bottom of a good printed dictionary).

There isn't a "purpose" to it any more than there is to evolution, but different places develop slightly different versions in each language.  Which is why it is nearly impossible to "pass" as a native speaker outside your own language.  The vowels give you away.

Eay, govner?



Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 10:37:14 AM
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Ah, but do you define belief as truth?  That is a question many theists struggle with more.
Warranted belief would indeed be truth to the individual. Faith is indeed in what cannot be readily and easily observed by all; and too is still truth and has been proven to be such on a multitude of levels; all within an individual or personal perspective or experience. Truth of a metaphysical or spiritual sort is, by definition, not physically verifiable through any third party.

Rome form of Quantum mechanics indeed seems true yet is not readily and easily observable to all.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 31, 2017, 10:44:38 AM
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Omniscience, nor the understanding there of, is limited to word games or parlor tricks.

Are you saying that omniscience doesn't apply to what is logically incoherent or paradoxal in nature?
Like, God not being able create a square circle is not a sign of him being omnipotent because its a logical inconsistency embodying two traits that cancel eachother out?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 11:00:37 AM
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Cavebear responded to this.  I can't because I don't know what you are talking about: 
How does a grandiose description of a personal ethic justify that truth ≠ belief?  It sounds like a statement of humility, and that's fine and all, but non sequitur in logic is not considered good form.  At a minimum, parts of arguments have to relate to each other.

This sort of argument is typical theism, a bold statement followed by lots of words that sound all highfalutin' draw the observer's attention away from the issue under question, giving the observer something mysterious to ponder as the theist attempts to ward off rebuttal.  Whenever the theist loses his own train of thought, confusion and intellectual chaos is the result.
No.

I do not mean to draw away from the subject or point.

Ask specific questions and get answers.

Upon receiving answers; ask further questions, or for more specifics.

Do you expect me to be pinpoint precise on a subject that literally encompasses all,  without first pointing out some intended direction?

Don't think I am looking to distract....ever.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 11:35:34 AM
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Warranted belief would indeed be truth to the individual. Faith is indeed in what cannot be readily and easily observed by all; and too is still truth and has been proven to be such on a multitude of levels; all within an individual or personal perspective or experience. Truth of a metaphysical or spiritual sort is, by definition, not physically verifiable through any third party.

Rome form of Quantum mechanics indeed seems true yet is not readily and easily observable to all.

See?  "warranted".  There always has to be a shade of twist in the argument by theists.

"proven to be such on a multitude of levels"  Really?  prove it.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 01:38:40 PM
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Yes, but when I said it, it took more words.

As for the ≠ sign, I will admit I have no clue how it was originally done, so awhile back I scrolled over someone else's, copied it and put in a text file of similar things that I could paste into my own writings.

Here's another one...  "luminiferous æther."  I could never figure out how they squish the a and e together.  For that matter I don't know why the ancients started squishing them in the first place.  What's the point in squishing perfectly good letters together?  Just to seem all intellectual, I suppose.

In Windows and Mac, there are "additional characters" available thru Character Viewer etc.  These vary from font to font.  Letters with extra jots and tittles, of scrunched together ... that is French influence ... "dieu sacré!" ... not just "æ" but "œ".  Technically these are "ligatures" ... and they exist in non-Latin alphabets (arabic).
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 01:44:44 PM
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Copied and saved?  As my Aussie friends would say "gobsmacked"!  I could never keep a file alive for great stuff like that.

The "ae" thing is a slightly different vowel, like "ei" in either. (between "ee" and "ii" if I understand it right.    Picked that up from a linguistics book.  Supposedly there are at least a few dozen different vowels (see the details on the bottom of a good printed dictionary).

There isn't a "purpose" to it any more than there is to evolution, but different places develop slightly different versions in each language.  Which is why it is nearly impossible to "pass" as a native speaker outside your own language.  The vowels give you away.

Eay, govner?

Yes, vowels are the key within a given language family (spanish vs portuguese).  Between families, it is often the consonants (arabic).  Other languages use tones.  In Mandarin every syllable can have one of four main tones (or a neutral tone).  The tone changes the meaning in Chinese, and they are still stuck with too many homonyms.

Conjoining adjacent vowels is tricky.  For many languages, you get a diphthong as a result.  In other languages, the vowels stay separate.  In other cases it might go both ways, and you need an apostrophe to identify adjacent vowels that are kept separate.  A, E, AE or A'E.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 01:45:01 PM
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In Windows and Mac, there are "additional characters" available thru Character Viewer etc.  These vary from font to font.  Letters with extra jots and tittles, of scrunched together ... that is French influence ... "dieu sacré!" ... not just "æ" but "œ".  Technically these are "ligatures" ... and they exist in non-Latin alphabets (arabic).

I've looked but I don't have those AFAIK.  And I have looked at a lot of fonts.  But maybe not the right ones.  Thank you, I'll check deeper.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 01:46:39 PM
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Yes, but when I said it, it took more words.

As for the ≠ sign, I will admit I have no clue how it was originally done, so awhile back I scrolled over someone else's, copied it and put in a text file of similar things that I could paste into my own writings.

Here's another one...  "luminiferous æther."  I could never figure out how they squish the a and e together.  For that matter I don't know why the ancients started squishing them in the first place.  What's the point in squishing perfectly good letters together?  Just to seem all intellectual, I suppose.

And culture (the Irish) ... some are laconic, others are loquacious.  This is sometimes forced by the nature of the language ... Japanese and Chinese are naturally chatty.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 01:48:36 PM
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Ah, but do you define belief as truth?  That is a question many theists struggle with more.

Kibbitzing ... I don't believe in truth (as it is usually defined). 1+1=2 isn't true or false to me, it is tautological ... not the same as truth at all.  Whether Trump won the election isn't even tautological.  Truth and falsehood, like theism and atheism, are rhetorical fighting words.  Fists made up of letters instead of fingers.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 01:51:43 PM
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Yes, vowels are the key within a given language family (spanish vs portuguese).  Between families, it is often the consonants (arabic).  Other languages use tones.  In Mandarin every syllable can have one of four main tones (or a neutral tone).  The tone changes the meaning in Chinese, and they are still stuck with too many homonyms.

Conjoining adjacent vowels is tricky.  For many languages, you get a diphthong as a result.  In other languages, the vowels stay separate.  In other cases it might go both ways, and you need an apostrophe to identify adjacent vowels that are kept separate.  A, E, AE or A'E.

You mentioned Portuguese vs Spanish.  I have a cat blog friend from Brazil, and Google only does true Portuguese.  You should see the differences, LOL!  I can barely translate Brazilian (latin cognates) and the differences can be both subtle and profound.  Cafunes to you. (don't take it literally).
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 01:56:07 PM
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See?  "warranted".  There always has to be a shade of twist in the argument by theists.

"proven to be such on a multitude of levels"  Really?  prove it.
I already specified that it was on a personal level and cannot be readily displayed by me for all to see.

The topic was destiny and freedom. Can we not discuss that instead of refusing to even talk about the topic at hand without definitive proof of GOD?

all of you are surely aware of the similarities of all ancient sacred texts. Many of these being separated by great expenses of both time and geography. This isn't a coincidence; in fact; there is no proof for coincidence or happenstance or random. History repeats itself. The way to the truth has always been the same; it is the misconstrueing of the truth and the things of the Spirit of life that has changed it to some unrecognizable, illogical delusion.

My screen is super broke on my phone; to the point that I can barely read to fix my surely error laden posts.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 01:59:15 PM
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Kibbitzing ... I don't believe in truth (as it is usually defined). 1+1=2 isn't true or false to me, it is tautological ... not the same as truth at all.  Whether Trump won the election isn't even tautological.  Truth and falsehood, like theism and atheism, are rhetorical fighting words.  Fists made up of letters instead of fingers.

How is 1+1=2 tautological when it is a mathematical premise?  Just saying something is true is not repetitive. 

Atheism and theism are not like truth and falsehood.  Neither can be proven. But theism is an original claim and atheism is a statement that the claim is not proven. 
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 02:01:51 PM
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I already specified that it was on a personal level and cannot be readily displayed by me for all to see.

The topic was destiny and freedom. Can we not discuss that instead of refusing to even talk about the topic at hand without definitive proof of GOD?

all of you are surely aware of the similarities of all ancient sacred texts. Many of these being separated by great expenses of both time and geography. This isn't a coincidence; in fact; there is no proof for coincidence or happenstance or random. History repeats itself. The way to the truth has always been the same; it is the misconstrueing of the truth and the things of the Spirit of life that has changed it to some unrecognizable, illogical delusion.

My screen is super broke on my phone; to the point that I can barely read to fix my surely error laden posts.

OK. prove any religious text factuality and ignore the basic deity of it.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on October 31, 2017, 03:58:43 PM
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I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.


God may or may not be evil, but according to "His Holy Word" (Isaiah 45:7) he does create evil:

Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 04:25:10 PM
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God may or may not be evil, but according to "His Holy Word" (Isaiah 45:7) he does create evil:
Indeed; the capacity for evil is inherent with freedom and exponential potential.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: aitm on October 31, 2017, 07:02:16 PM
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I don't believe GOD to be evil,

We all well know how apologetics turn a blind eye to "gods" atrocities. I can almost slightly find a somewhat kind of smarmy excuse for a god to kill off "his" creations on some kind of mumbo jitsu you have to twirl too, but it is not so easy when your god demands that "innocent" men go off and kill babies and rape little girls. Put that next to his proclamation that man shall not kill....why, its just another example of god mimicking man who mimics god who is merely the rightful alter ego of man. Not so much reality as wishful thinking. But hey...delude away.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:03:40 PM
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You mentioned Portuguese vs Spanish.  I have a cat blog friend from Brazil, and Google only does true Portuguese.  You should see the differences, LOL!  I can barely translate Brazilian (latin cognates) and the differences can be both subtle and profound.  Cafunes to you. (don't take it literally).

Haitian Creole isn't real French either, but not trying to start a fight.  And there are plenty of differences between various Latin American Spanish, and between them and Castilian.  Not all Spaniards speak Castilian ... hence their problem with Catalonia.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:07:02 PM
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Indeed; the capacity for evil is inherent with freedom and exponential potential.

G-d is a verb, not a noun.  G-d is becoming, not being.  Dynamic, not static.  Europeans have a grammatical prejudice, that bends their philosophies.  We are what we do ... if G-d creates evil ... then G-d creates evil.  I can't conclude what G-d is, or even what I am.  This is part of the theological joke about "I am" that even Jesus plays with.  In fact, in Semitic languages, there is no "to be" ... just "was" or "will be" ... translation to European languages destroys the very fabric of the Bible.  Hence Muslims are correct, the Quran can't be translated and still be the Quran.  Neither can the Bible, because of all the subtle mistakes that are made.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:09:40 PM
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We all well know how apologetics turn a blind eye to "gods" atrocities. I can almost slightly find a somewhat kind of smarmy excuse for a god to kill off "his" creations on some kind of mumbo jitsu you have to twirl too, but it is not so easy when your god demands that "innocent" men go off and kill babies and rape little girls. Put that next to his proclamation that man shall not kill....why, its just another example of god mimicking man who mimics god who is merely the rightful alter ego of man. Not so much reality as wishful thinking. But hey...delude away.

Gods being projections of humans, that makes humans superior to gods.  Just as the Sabbath is made for man, not the other way around.  So I am not being quite accurate by saying I am a demigod.  But I am not some SJW god, I understand the criminality and irrationality of the Bible god.  I feel empathy for imperfection, because I am perfect.  Perfect gods are the kind that the Klingons killed in forming their independent society.  Even Buddhists say, if you meet the Buddha along the road, kill him!
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:11:22 PM
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I already specified that it was on a personal level and cannot be readily displayed by me for all to see.

The topic was destiny and freedom. Can we not discuss that instead of refusing to even talk about the topic at hand without definitive proof of GOD?

all of you are surely aware of the similarities of all ancient sacred texts. Many of these being separated by great expenses of both time and geography. This isn't a coincidence; in fact; there is no proof for coincidence or happenstance or random. History repeats itself. The way to the truth has always been the same; it is the misconstrueing of the truth and the things of the Spirit of life that has changed it to some unrecognizable, illogical delusion.

My screen is super broke on my phone; to the point that I can barely read to fix my surely error laden posts.

Sympathy for your technical problems.  The scriptures are similar, because the authors are similar.  They are all humans of the last 10,000 years.  A totally different sentient would produce much more interesting scripture, if they wrote at all, as opposed to use hive mind telepathy.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:13:50 PM
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How is 1+1=2 tautological when it is a mathematical premise?  Just saying something is true is not repetitive. 

Atheism and theism are not like truth and falsehood.  Neither can be proven. But theism is an original claim and atheism is a statement that the claim is not proven.

Math is a topic for the math section.  Given the definitions of "1" and "2" and "+" and "=" ... the result follows from the definitions.  Trying to deduce this from pure logic took over 300 pages of logical proof, by Whitehead and Russell over 100 years ago, and we still aren't sure if they got it quite right ;-)  This is why I prefer a practical viewpoint.  I can handle simple math on my fingers same as a cave man.  I don't need to study the Principia Mathematica.

I added a funny explanation of this to the Math section, just for you.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 07:16:02 PM
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Indeed; the capacity for evil is inherent with freedom and exponential potential.

Some deny that G-d is free ... Mutazilite.  Others say G-d is free ... Ash'arite.  So this leaves the question of "Evil" and "G-d" up in the air.  Ash'arite theology is like Klingons, Mutazilite theology is like Vulcans.  I suspect neither are from Terra ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on October 31, 2017, 07:54:17 PM
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Warranted belief would indeed be truth to the individual. Faith is indeed in what cannot be readily and easily observed by all; and too is still truth and has been proven to be such on a multitude of levels; all within an individual or personal perspective or experience. Truth of a metaphysical or spiritual sort is, by definition, not physically verifiable through any third party.
Then what you mean by "Just a truthful statement" is "What [you] believe to be true."

To me this is not a small difference. 

Writers do have an obligation to be clear to the reader.  This is pretty basic communication.  Not being understood can't be blamed entirely on the reader.  The writers have to put some effort into the process too.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 09:29:49 PM
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We all well know how apologetics turn a blind eye to "gods" atrocities. I can almost slightly find a somewhat kind of smarmy excuse for a god to kill off "his" creations on some kind of mumbo jitsu you have to twirl too, but it is not so easy when your god demands that "innocent" men go off and kill babies and rape little girls. Put that next to his proclamation that man shall not kill....why, its just another example of god mimicking man who mimics god who is merely the rightful alter ego of man. Not so much reality as wishful thinking. But hey...delude away.
The misdirection of man is just that, and not directly the work of GOD, or the Will of GOD. GOD is merciful, giving, and long-suffering. Our freedom and potential allow for evil, yet even that is a lesson to be learned from and a thing to grow from.

The greed of man has in times past, and to this day, contorted the truth. This is spoken about repeatedly by Jesus the Christ of GOD Himself. It is my personal belief that some of this misdirection is still within the OT; for good reason. Basically I am saying that GOD would not have ordered the slaughter and pillaging that took place; just as GOD didn't find the sacrifices and burnt offerings pleasing. Manipulation of the truth took place at some point; and it is obvious, spoken against repeatedly, and shown.

As far as GOD being an alternate perspective or ego;  ones ego,  nor a change of perspective is capable of what we find ourselves encompassed within, not can they produce themselves.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 09:36:54 PM
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G-d is a verb, not a noun.  G-d is becoming, not being.  Dynamic, not static.  Europeans have a grammatical prejudice, that bends their philosophies.  We are what we do ... if G-d creates evil ... then G-d creates evil.  I can't conclude what G-d is, or even what I am.  This is part of the theological joke about "I am" that even Jesus plays with.  In fact, in Semitic languages, there is no "to be" ... just "was" or "will be" ... translation to European languages destroys the very fabric of the Bible.  Hence Muslims are correct, the Quran can't be translated and still be the Quran.  Neither can the Bible, because of all the subtle mistakes that are made.
Who said anything about misunderstanding the Bible, or the Quran, of other sacred texts? The Fire, the Spirit, the light, the Image.....

to understand such is one thing; to speak of them openly with respect to self is the opposite. I would think that you understand what I mean.

Saying that such knowledge negatively affects the fact that all GOD inspired texts are synonymous in core nature and purpose is faulty in my opinion.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 09:39:28 PM
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Sympathy for your technical problems.  The scriptures are similar, because the authors are similar.  They are all humans of the last 10,000 years.  A totally different sentient would produce much more interesting scripture, if they wrote at all, as opposed to use hive mind telepathy.
The fact that such is our very nature from any and all recorded history even attests to there being a CREATOR.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 09:56:08 PM
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Some deny that G-d is free ... Mutazilite.  Others say G-d is free ... Ash'arite.  So this leaves the question of "Evil" and "G-d" up in the air.  Ash'arite theology is like Klingons, Mutazilite theology is like Vulcans.  I suspect neither are from Terra ;-)
You're asking if I find GOD to be benevolent though you perceive things differently from me; I think....

I find that man has potential for evil, and GOD is omniscient, knowing what could happen surely, even exactly what would happen. But under careful consideration I do conclude that the suffering of man is for the eventual repentance of man. Even so; I do believe that ultimately GOD will be merciful to all; how can one rightly be condemned to eternal destruction for doing what they had the GOD given potential to do? Of course,  this is not the case for those who knowingly and actively go against what they know(believe) to be good and right. I don't put too much thought into an afterlife really, but I guess I think some will be punished or afflicted somehow, for some extent prior to eventually reuniting with the Spirit of life.

If this happens here or after death still eludes me.

I do believe GOD to be benevolent, but not without merciful judgement.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 10:01:23 PM
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Then what you mean by "Just a truthful statement" is "What [you] believe to be true."

To me this is not a small difference. 

Writers do have an obligation to be clear to the reader.  This is pretty basic communication.  Not being understood can't be blamed entirely on the reader.  The writers have to put some effort into the process too.
It is admittedly subjective truth; but I believe it to apply to all existence with standard functioning capacities (cognitive(human)).

Do you follow your conscience? Is it twisted by greed or want of personal attainment?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 10:24:23 PM
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Are you saying that omniscience doesn't apply to what is logically incoherent or paradoxal in nature?
Like, God not being able create a square circle is not a sign of him being omnipotent because its a logical inconsistency embodying two traits that cancel eachother out?
You speak with eloquence;  and yes.

Someone in an actual theology sight tried such with a five sided triangle after I had already explained that shapes, among other things, are represented by or at the perspective of the observer, and as such; can change. Needless to say; he was, and still is pretty speechless about the whole thing.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on October 31, 2017, 10:26:30 PM
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The misdirection of man is just that, and not directly the work of GOD, or the Will of GOD. GOD is merciful, giving, and long-suffering. Our freedom and potential allow for evil, yet even that is a lesson to be learned from and a thing to grow from.

The greed of man has in times past, and to this day, contorted the truth. This is spoken about repeatedly by Jesus the Christ of GOD Himself. It is my personal belief that some of this misdirection is still within the OT; for good reason. Basically I am saying that GOD would not have ordered the slaughter and pillaging that took place; just as GOD didn't find the sacrifices and burnt offerings pleasing. Manipulation of the truth took place at some point; and it is obvious, spoken against repeatedly, and shown.

As far as GOD being an alternate perspective or ego;  ones ego,  nor a change of perspective is capable of what we find ourselves encompassed within, not can they produce themselves.

OT slaughters weren't always done by man, you know. God killed the first born children of Egypt, not Moses.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 06:51:58 AM
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You're asking if I find GOD to be benevolent though you perceive things differently from me; I think....

I find that man has potential for evil, and GOD is omniscient, knowing what could happen surely, even exactly what would happen. But under careful consideration I do conclude that the suffering of man is for the eventual repentance of man. Even so; I do believe that ultimately GOD will be merciful to all; how can one rightly be condemned to eternal destruction for doing what they had the GOD given potential to do? Of course,  this is not the case for those who knowingly and actively go against what they know(believe) to be good and right. I don't put too much thought into an afterlife really, but I guess I think some will be punished or afflicted somehow, for some extent prior to eventually reuniting with the Spirit of life.

If this happens here or after death still eludes me.

I do believe GOD to be benevolent, but not without merciful judgement.

No, I was raising the abstract question of G-d's freedom, nothing more.  Using Islam as an example.

Separately no, I don't experience G-d as benevolent, except in a way that destroys the meaning of that word.  My beliefs are irrelevant ... my experience belies any beliefs.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 01, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
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No, I was raising the abstract question of G-d's freedom, nothing more.  Using Islam as an example.

Separately no, I don't experience G-d as benevolent, except in a way that destroys the meaning of that word.  My beliefs are irrelevant ... my experience belies any beliefs.
It is when experience is verified by "sacred" texts that one's beliefs based on experience are found to be truthful beyond the subjective personal perspective. Things can be reiterated, verified, and established in seemingly limitless degrees and natures.

I find mercy to be the only just thing from the perspective of man. Though to say mercy must be without limit to be mercy or just, is not accurate.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 01, 2017, 04:21:38 PM
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Are you saying that omniscience doesn't apply to what is logically incoherent or paradoxal in nature?
Like, God not being able create a square circle is not a sign of him being omnipotent because its a logical inconsistency embodying two traits that cancel eachother out?
Which is greater, I wonder - logic or God?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 01, 2017, 04:25:16 PM
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You speak with eloquence;  and yes.

Someone in an actual theology sight tried such with a five sided triangle after I had already explained that shapes, among other things, are represented by or at the perspective of the observer, and as such; can change. Needless to say; he was, and still is pretty speechless about the whole thing.

Would a similar paradox not be formed though, when God tried to give its subjects free will?
If, and only if, one conciders God omnipotent, omniscient and the creator of everything, isn't it impossible for him to give his subjects free will?
If it can create its creation in any way it would like, due to its omnipotence, and would simultaneously know how each possible way would turn out, into every detail due to his omniscience, does that not mean that by the act of creating his creation in the way he chooses predetermines all other choices made by his subjects, i.e. everyone and everything chooses what he chose for them to choose?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 01, 2017, 04:32:50 PM
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Would a similar paradox not be formed though, when God tried to give its subjects free will?
If, and only if, one conciders God omnipotent, omniscient and the creator of everything, isn't it impossible for him to give his subjects free will?
If it can create its creation in any way it would like, due to its omnipotence, and would simultaneously know how each possible way would turn out, into every detail due to his omniscience, does that not mean that by the act of creating his creation in the way he chooses predetermines all other choices made by his subjects, i.e. everyone and everything chooses what he chose for them to choose?
I do not think that GOD knowing what creation will choose takes away from that freedom from creations perspective.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 01, 2017, 04:38:32 PM
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I do not think that GOD knowing what creation will choose takes away from that freedom from creations perspective.

So is this illusion of free will the same as actual free will?
And its not just knowing, its choosing what the created will choose.
Because if he didn't want them to choose it, he could have created the creation differently.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 01, 2017, 05:18:10 PM
How much omniscience could God have? If he knows too much, such as everything he'll ever do for all future eternity, then he's got problems. Can he change his mind and do something other than what he's always known he would do? If not, then he can't be free. He'd be a slave to his own omniscience. So God's omniscience can't be absolute. If not, then exactly what are the limits to God's omniscience?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 01, 2017, 05:35:36 PM
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So is this illusion of free will the same as actual free will?
And its not just knowing, its choosing what the created will choose.
Because if he didn't want them to choose it, he could have created the creation differently.
Agreed
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
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Which is greater, I wonder - logic or God?

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds - Emerson

Theologians try to use logic to count the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin ... they are damned.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 08:39:55 PM
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So is this illusion of free will the same as actual free will?
And its not just knowing, its choosing what the created will choose.
Because if he didn't want them to choose it, he could have created the creation differently.

Hence the question I had, does G-d have any choice?  Or do only creatures have free will?

As far as illusion goes, that leads nowhere except nihilism.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 08:43:39 PM
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So is this illusion of free will the same as actual free will?
And its not just knowing, its choosing what the created will choose.
Because if he didn't want them to choose it, he could have created the creation differently.

That is classic casuistry of the theologians, that Descartes was trying to escape.

In mysticism ... the relationship between G-d and man is much more dialectic ... we wish for what G-d wishes, so that in a logically trivial way, G-d can wish for what we wish for.  I don't find this satisfying, because I don't know what G-d wishes for.  There is no empirical evidence, just virtue signaling on G-d's behalf.  Some theologians acknowledge that, and consider it the highest form of piety, to idealize G-d's virtue ... but it leads to the theodicy problem.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: fencerider on November 01, 2017, 08:57:00 PM
I don’t think there is any place in the Bible that says god is omniscient. That is theological hubris.

I have to agree with Baruch in saying the god of the Bible is not a benevolent being.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 01, 2017, 09:38:31 PM
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Which is greater, I wonder - logic or God?
Since God is a fiction, you don't have to wonder any more.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on November 01, 2017, 10:07:55 PM
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Since God is a fiction, you don't have to wonder any more.
OK then.  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 10:13:16 PM
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OK then.  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Angels are a fiction.  Sugarplum faeries are real ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_f9B4pPtg
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on November 01, 2017, 10:31:06 PM
Ballet is nice, I suppose, but they wave their arms around in the air too much.  I prefer no arm movement at all, like none, zip, nadda, but a whole bunch of fast feet instead, and they are touring the US again this year.  I'm going to see them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sboC05gcVZw
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 10:36:43 PM
i got to see Michael Flatley live in Lord of the Dance ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZfR4CG-3_M

Just two women on fiddle, but it is Heaven to my ears ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 01, 2017, 10:58:46 PM
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I don’t think there is any place in the Bible that says god is omniscient. That is theological hubris.

I have to agree with Baruch in saying the god of the Bible is not a benevolent being.
There are multiple examples, or verifications of the omniscience of GOD within the Bible.

Isaiah 46: 9-10
Isaiah 40: 13-14
Psalm 139:4
Psalm 139:13
Psalm 139:15-16
Job 21:22
1 Chronicles 28:9
Job 37:16
Psalm 33:13-15
Romans 11:13
Hebrews 4:13
Luke 12:7
1 John 3:20
Mathew 10:29-30
Psalm 147:4-5
Genesis 45:5
Proverbs 15:3
1 Peter 1:20
Isaiah 7:14

There are more, but they would take whole chapters or more to accurately show.


Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 01, 2017, 11:05:41 PM
Hebrews 4:13

Different translations ... no creature hidden vs no creation hidden ... I would go with the first.  The point being, a rock has nothing to fear.  The point being ... divine help or divine retribution?  The full verse is about retribution.  And on that note, I will go with ... not beneficent.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 01, 2017, 11:05:58 PM
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OK then.  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Trout probably could.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on November 01, 2017, 11:19:44 PM
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Trout probably could.
Maybe one trout.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 01, 2017, 11:30:12 PM
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Maybe one trout.
I was speaking of Mike Trout, star centerfielder for the LA Angles.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on November 01, 2017, 11:36:18 PM
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I was speaking of Mike Trout, star centerfielder for the LA Angles.
There is no possible way I could have understood that.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 02, 2017, 12:11:21 AM
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There is no possible way I could have understood that.
Yeah, I guess not.  Not many baseball fans prowling this board. :)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: fencerider on November 02, 2017, 12:29:40 AM
I stand corrected

Isaiah 46: 9-10 no
Isaiah 40: 13-14 no
Psalm 139:4 no
Psalm 139:13 no
Psalm 139:15-16 no
Job 21:22 no
1 Chronicles 28:9 no
Job 37:16 maybe
Psalm 33:13-15 no
Romans 11:13 no
Hebrews 4:13
Luke 12:7 no
1 John 3:20 yes
Mathew 10:29-30 no
Psalm 147:4-5 yes
Genesis 45:5 no
Proverbs 15:3 no
1 Peter 1:20 no
Isaiah 7:14 no
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 02, 2017, 10:03:22 AM
Actually, all that Pops has been saying is that he realizes his 'truth' is totally subjective.  All of his 'proofs' are subjective as well.  His subjective proofs has proven to him that all that he has stated is true and proven--to him.  And he cannot prove that to anybody else. 

Trying to dissuade him of that set of beliefs is impossible, for all of his beliefs are subjective and will not change unless he decides to change.  Facts and reasons have no impact.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 11:12:29 AM
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Actually, all that Pops has been saying is that he realizes his 'truth' is totally subjective.  All of his 'proofs' are subjective as well.  His subjective proofs has proven to him that all that he has stated is true and proven--to him.  And he cannot prove that to anybody else. 

Trying to dissuade him of that set of beliefs is impossible, for all of his beliefs are subjective and will not change unless he decides to change.  Facts and reasons have no impact.
In actuality the truth I am generally referring to pertains to all.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on November 02, 2017, 11:22:52 AM
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Not many baseball fans prowling this board. :)
The last big league player I actually knew about was Ken Griffey Jr.  And I only knew about him because of a movie, Summer Catch, with Freddie Prinze Jr.  How long has it been since Freddie Prinze Jr has even been in a movie?  Not being a big fan of baseball, I still thoroughly enjoyed that move, and even bought it for my collection. 

A young pitcher on a feeder team with a hot fastball, constantly screws up in tight situations, because he has emotional issues, but with the support of his new love, Jessica Biel, back when she was totally the hottest babe on the planet, gets over his problems and is offered a job with the Phillies, where he gets his debut on the mound. 

All his friends back in his old haunt are watching him breathlessly at the bar.  Of course he finds himself in a tight situation as a relief pitcher, and the first hitter he has to face is Ken Griffey Jr.  It's the end of the movie, so the whole plot leads up to this point, and you're on the edge of your seat in anticipation.  His first pitch is steaming fast ball, which Griffey knocks out of the park as Prinze stands there helplessly watching the ball sail over his head.  But he shrugs it off with a smile as the announcer says, "Welcome to the big leagues, Newbie."  And the movie ends with all his friends back home cheering wildly over his first performance because everyone knows he's going to be OK.

Yeah, it sounds schmaltzy, but I loved it.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 02, 2017, 11:49:58 AM
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In actuality the truth I am generally referring to pertains to all.
What does that mean?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 12:23:47 PM
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What does that mean?
We are all connected.

There is One Spirit of life; One Creator. Though the things I know to be true are a result of things I experienced personally; they are also reiterated and substantiated in multiple ways and do pertain to all.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on November 02, 2017, 12:56:09 PM
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What does that mean?
Pops can't distinguish between words written on a page and how the universe actually works. Pages of the bible are offered up as proof of God's omniscience, even though a real proof would involve knowing everything about the real world. And what happens when you test that knowledge against the real world? You get lolfests like the one God gave Job, shutting up the seas with doors and other howlers.

For someone who is supposedly omniscient, God wouldn't pass a high school science exam. Or indeed a sixth grade science test.

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We are all connected.
Yep. If I punch you in the nose, you walk away with a bloody nose. Doesn't take a god to tell you that, though.

Quote
There is One Spirit of life; One Creator. Though the things I know to be true are a result of things I experienced personally; they are also reiterated and substantiated in multiple ways and do pertain to all.
Tripe. What you "experienced" was a typical christian upbringing that programmed you to see god everywhere, even if he wasn't. Your faulty pattern recognition does not constitute truth.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 02, 2017, 01:38:50 PM
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We are all connected.

There is One Spirit of life; One Creator. Though the things I know to be true are a result of things I experienced personally; they are also reiterated and substantiated in multiple ways and do pertain to all.
Yes, we are all connected--without a doubt.  Yes, your truths are true for you--subjectively.  And they pertain to all in your belief system, subjectively.  Your personal truths are not mine.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: SGOS on November 02, 2017, 02:18:13 PM
My neighbor started in on the "we are all connected" bullshit.  Actually it was, "Everything is connected."  I didn't say anything, and I certainly doubt that I gave any indication of my thoughts, and then he added, "You know that," like I was supposed to automatically agree.  However, what was really odd about it was that whether or not everything is connected had nothing to do with his religious assertions.

I suppose I should have stopped him and explained what a non-sequitur was or given him a quick mini-course in logic, but I just wrote it off as a waste of time.  Plus, I didn't want to teach him another logical fallacy he could use in his reasoning process.  He was already handicapped enough.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 02, 2017, 04:30:51 PM
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Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds - Emerson
Why misquote? You know as well as I do that he said a "foolish consistency":

Quote from: Ralph Waldo Emerson
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 02, 2017, 04:32:09 PM
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As far as illusion goes, that leads nowhere except nihilism.
So what? What's so terrible about nihilism?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 04:50:28 PM
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Pops can't distinguish between words written on a page and how the universe actually works. Pages of the bible are offered up as proof of God's omniscience, even though a real proof would involve knowing everything about the real world. And what happens when you test that knowledge against the real world? You get lolfests like the one God gave Job, shutting up the seas with doors and other howlers.

For someone who is supposedly omniscient, God wouldn't pass a high school science exam. Or indeed a sixth grade science test.
Yep. If I punch you in the nose, you walk away with a bloody nose. Doesn't take a god to tell you that, though.
Tripe. What you "experienced" was a typical christian upbringing that programmed you to see god everywhere, even if he wasn't. Your faulty pattern recognition does not constitute truth.
Don't assume things please

I was a very sincere atheist for most of my life. believe it or not. I don't care. Just because one cannot understand the real meanings behind scripture doesn't mean it is actual nonsense; just that you lack the capacity to understand it. I don't use scripture for the basis of my beliefs; I started reading them a couple years after my receiving faith in GOD; and they reiterated and verified what was already known. You are speaking from absolute ignorance in reference to the source of my belief and my upbringing.

Isn't that sorta like grasping for straws? And why? What is the point? Being ignorant of a thing is all good and fine, but just shooting in the dark is pretty damn dumb. I recall you being more poised than that.

Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:09:57 PM
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My neighbor started in on the "we are all connected" bullshit.  Actually it was, "Everything is connected."  I didn't say anything, and I certainly doubt that I gave any indication of my thoughts, and then he added, "You know that," like I was supposed to automatically agree.  However, what was really odd about it was that whether or not everything is connected had nothing to do with his religious assertions.

I suppose I should have stopped him and explained what a non-sequitur was or given him a quick mini-course in logic, but I just wrote it off as a waste of time.  Plus, I didn't want to teach him another logical fallacy he could use in his reasoning process.  He was already handicapped enough.

Unity of some sort is fundamental to monotheism, and to unified science.  In religion this unity is usually personal, and in unified science it is impersonal.

For me there is macrocosm, and microcosm.  Each person is a microcosm.  And personage isn't limited to humans, but all humans are persons.  All persons are interconnected.  This interconnection is the macrocosm.  G-d is macrocosm.  Jesus says, where two or more are gathered in my name (power) there am I.  But the point of science is analysis, which involves abstraction and atomization (both conceptually and literally).

Social science ... per its name, is pure individualism, where everyone is at war with everyone else.  A group of individuals with no community.  Synthesis is the opposite of analysis.  An artist paints a painting.  He is doing synthesis.  The art critic, who couldn't paint a barn, analyses the ouvre of the painter.  Those who can ... synthesize.  Those who can't ... analyze.  But both are apes, who either finger paint or not.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:10:54 PM
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What does that mean?

Per you, there is no objective meaning.  So what did it mean to you?  Or are you simply baiting Pops?  When you have nothing to say for yourself?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:12:37 PM
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So what? What's so terrible about nihilism?

If suicidal depression is a philosophy ... then go be lower than Nietzsche if you can.  See ... not all thinking is philosophy, some of it is mental illness.  Consider Nietzsche ...
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:14:49 PM
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My neighbor started in on the "we are all connected" bullshit.  Actually it was, "Everything is connected."  I didn't say anything, and I certainly doubt that I gave any indication of my thoughts, and then he added, "You know that," like I was supposed to automatically agree.  However, what was really odd about it was that whether or not everything is connected had nothing to do with his religious assertions.

I suppose I should have stopped him and explained what a non-sequitur was or given him a quick mini-course in logic, but I just wrote it off as a waste of time.  Plus, I didn't want to teach him another logical fallacy he could use in his reasoning process.  He was already handicapped enough.

No, everything is disconnected.  All of your words are just random letters.  Your body is random atoms ...

Sorry, I see no logic in anyone here, just posturing by mentally ill people.  This person had different axioms than you ... there is nothing logical or illegal about that.  You simply state (if he disagrees with me, he is illogical, because I am Spock)?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:15:59 PM
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Why misquote? You know as well as I do that he said a "foolish consistency":

Consistency is always foolish, because it always involves unexamined axioms.  For example, Euclid was wrong about geometry ... are you better?  Hmm  ... consistency ... if you fully quote Emerson, then are you a New England Transcendentalist?  Didn't think so.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:19:07 PM
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Don't assume things please

I was a very sincere atheist for most of my life. believe it or not. I don't care. Just because one cannot understand the real meanings behind scripture doesn't mean it is actual nonsense; just that you lack the capacity to understand it. I don't use scripture for the basis of my beliefs; I started reading them a couple years after my receiving faith in GOD; and they reiterated and verified what was already known. You are speaking from absolute ignorance in reference to the source of my belief and my upbringing.

Isn't that sorta like grasping for straws? And why? What is the point? Being ignorant of a thing is all good and fine, but just shooting in the dark is pretty damn dumb. I recall you being more poised than that.

Hakurei is "G-d's Gift" to atheism ;-(
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 02, 2017, 08:22:57 PM
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Per you, there is no objective meaning.  So what did it mean to you?  Or are you simply baiting Pops?  When you have nothing to say for yourself?
Am I simply baiting Pops?  And this from the master baiter of the board?????  Pops seems to have a hard time comprehending what he reads.  So, I asked him to expand on his answer.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:35:53 PM
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Am I simply baiting Pops?  And this from the master baiter of the board?????  Pops seems to have a hard time comprehending what he reads.  So, I asked him to expand on his answer.

You could have said it nicer.  I can tell when you are irritated ;-)  Also, I suppose that double entendre was accidental ... well in Kabbalah, sex is a sacrament ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on November 02, 2017, 09:11:48 PM
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I was a very sincere atheist for most of my life. believe it or not. I don't care. Just because one cannot understand the real meanings behind scripture doesn't mean it is actual nonsense; just that you lack the capacity to understand it. I don't use scripture for the basis of my beliefs; I started reading them a couple years after my receiving faith in GOD; and they reiterated and verified what was already known. You are speaking from absolute ignorance in reference to the source of my belief and my upbringing.
I didn't claim that you read the bible first and then you believed. Religious indoctrination doesn't begin with the bible. It begins in the church, in the home, and on the playground. The clergy, your parents, your friends all talking about God and this Jesus person. Before you even cracked open your first bible, you were already primed to believe it. You already knew of god as a concept before that, and probably a few experiences that you were unable to explain but "god" provided a lazy explanation for. Hence, you were already converted by the time you reached out for your bible. You were already seeing the world through god-tinted glasses, so of course, you saw a lot of "verification" everywhere. And you read the bible and find that other people had similar ideas and thought it to be the nail in the coffin, where actually, it is ultimate source for your priming of your beliefs, by way of your parents, your pastors, and your neighborhood.

You may have thought you were an atheist, but you were never my kind of atheist. Your reasoning and skeptical faculties are too poor for you to be my kind of atheist.

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Isn't that sorta like grasping for straws?
No. If your conversion didn't happen exactly how I described, pretty darn close. Nobody comes to christianity except by first being exposed to it. Otherwise, we would have discovered tribes in the Amazon that were christians before the missionaries came.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 09:26:48 PM
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I didn't claim that you read the bible first and then you believed. Religious indoctrination doesn't begin with the bible. It begins in the church, in the home, and on the playground. The clergy, your parents, your friends all talking about God and this Jesus person. Before you even cracked open your first bible, you were already primed to believe it. You already knew of god as a concept before that, and probably a few experiences that you were unable to explain but "god" provided a lazy explanation for. Hence, you were already converted by the time you reached out for your bible. You were already seeing the world through god-tinted glasses, so of course, you saw a lot of "verification" everywhere. And you read the bible and find that other people had similar ideas and thought it to be the nail in the coffin, where actually, it is ultimate source for your priming of your beliefs, by way of your parents, your pastors, and your neighborhood.

You may have thought you were an atheist, but you were never my kind of atheist. Your reasoning and skeptical faculties are too poor for you to be my kind of atheist.
No. If your conversion didn't happen exactly how I described, pretty darn close. Nobody comes to christianity except by first being exposed to it. Otherwise, we would have discovered tribes in the Amazon that were christians before the missionaries came.
You are missing very plain obvious statements made by me in your attempt to fit me into some precast mold.

Such is typical; just as another noted.

What even makes you think I consider myself only or even primarily Christian? That isn't a real question; presuposition is the real answer though.

When you want to conversate like intelligible, individual beings, then let's; otherwise it would behoove you to leave your preconceived nonsensical stereotyping at the door; or not; feel free to continue to make outright false claims based on utter presupposition and perhaps some level of spite.

It would be great to go back to the subject.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on November 02, 2017, 09:36:54 PM
Are you saying that you never heard of god, or understood that concept on a basic level, before you cracked open the bible?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 10:08:23 PM
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Are you saying that you never heard of god, or understood that concept on a basic level, before you cracked open the bible?
Not at all.

You are playing daft.

In part of first grade ( less than half a school year I think) I actually went to a Christian school. I recall wondering why dinosaurs weren't explained.

Past that I had very little exposure other than my grandmother saying blessing on thanksgiving.

From very near first grade if not during I became an atheist. I went from some level or form of atheism to some level of agnosticism and back to atheism as a surety later in adolescence I guess. I couldn't justifiably believe in GOD because of observable pain in existence.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on November 03, 2017, 02:44:29 AM
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I stand corrected

Isaiah 46: 9-10 no
Isaiah 40: 13-14 no
Psalm 139:4 no
Psalm 139:13 no
Psalm 139:15-16 no
Job 21:22 no
1 Chronicles 28:9 no
Job 37:16 maybe
Psalm 33:13-15 no
Romans 11:13 no
Hebrews 4:13
Luke 12:7 no
1 John 3:20 yes
Mathew 10:29-30 no
Psalm 147:4-5 yes
Genesis 45:5 no
Proverbs 15:3 no
1 Peter 1:20 no
Isaiah 7:14 no

Considering God made a bet with Satan in the book of Job, you can change that maybe to a no. Why would Satan bet against an omniscient being, and what would an omniscient being have to prove?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 03, 2017, 11:55:12 PM
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You are missing very plain obvious statements made by me in your attempt to fit me into some precast mold.

Such is typical; just as another noted.

What even makes you think I consider myself only or even primarily Christian? That isn't a real question; presuposition is the real answer though.

When you want to conversate like intelligible, individual beings, then let's; otherwise it would behoove you to leave your preconceived nonsensical stereotyping at the door; or not; feel free to continue to make outright false claims based on utter presupposition and perhaps some level of spite.

It would be great to go back to the subject.

One never truly knows what some others believe theistically.  But in general, you do seem to be theistic.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 04, 2017, 06:59:00 AM
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One never truly knows what some others believe theistically.  But in general, you do seem to be theistic.
Yes, I am some sort of theist I guess,  but that is exceptionally broad.

Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 04, 2017, 10:00:41 AM
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Yes, I am some sort of theist I guess,  but that is exceptionally broad.

In that, I match you.  Most people treat each other as card-board Nazis ... stand them up, shoot them down.  Stereotypes.  Real people (everyone) don't fit stereotypes.  To actually know what someone is like ... you have to get to know them.  That is a tiresome and bothersome process.  Bigotry is so much more efficient.

If some people do actually act like card-board Nazis ... that is their own fault, fulfilling a stereotype instead of just being themselves.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on November 04, 2017, 12:41:09 PM
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In that, I match you.  Most people treat each other as card-board Nazis ... stand them up, shoot them down.  Stereotypes.  Real people (everyone) don't fit stereotypes.  To actually know what someone is like ... you have to get to know them.  That is a tiresome and bothersome process.  Bigotry is so much more efficient.

If some people do actually act like card-board Nazis ... that is their own fault, fulfilling a stereotype instead of just being themselves.

Being a former theist, I still remember what it was like to be on the other side of the fence. But I also remember how much more clearly I saw the world after I gave up my belief, and I know how futile it is to try to point out the weaknesses in the kind of flawed logic I used to employ. The brains of the devout simply work differently than those of skeptics.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 04, 2017, 01:06:43 PM
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Being a former theist, I still remember what it was like to be on the other side of the fence. But I also remember how much more clearly I saw the world after I gave up my belief, and I know how futile it is to try to point out the weaknesses in the kind of flawed logic I used to employ. The brains of the devout simply work differently than those of skeptics.

Skepticism is good, just don't go full skeptic, or you are a full retard ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on November 05, 2017, 08:17:14 PM
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Not at all.

You are playing daft.

In part of first grade ( less than half a school year I think) I actually went to a Christian school. I recall wondering why dinosaurs weren't explained.

Past that I had very little exposure other than my grandmother saying blessing on thanksgiving.
"Very little exposure"? Nobody said "God bless you"? You didn't celebrate Christmas? Were there no churches in the area? Did you not read Shakespeare, or most other English literature? Did you hear no incidents about the Ten Commandments being put on courthouse lawns, or Kitzmiller v. Dover, or other religious kerfuffles? Because unless you were living on an island somewhere, I very much doubt it.

So, yeah, you knew what the Christian god was and you even spent half a year where people tried to hammer it into your skull as a viable explanation for the world. I would call that priming.

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From very near first grade if not during I became an atheist. I went from some level or form of atheism to some level of agnosticism and back to atheism as a surety later in adolescence I guess. I couldn't justifiably believe in GOD because of observable pain in existence.
And yet, when you committed yourself to theism, you didn't go with Hindu gods, or Norse gods, or Greek gods, or Egyptian gods, but the Christian god. Funny coincidence that, when you decided that a god was part of the truth, it's the god that you had the most exposure to.

Anyway, while you may not call yourself a Christian, it still doesn't negate my point. The fact that you think that you "experienced" your god is neither here nor there. I don't doubt that you experienced something that changed your life, and changed you from what you would call an atheist into someone who believed in the Christian god, but going to call it a "god" is not warranted, especially if you have no extraordinary proof to back up your claims. And no, just because a tribe of near-ignorant goat-hearders from the first century wrote down something that sounds like what you experienced in retrospect doesn't prove your god either, because that could have been easily the result of your priming in the first grade, your brain revising that exprience (as we know brains are wont to do), or a combination of both. I don't even necessarily believe you when you say that you were ever an atheist, because an uncomfortable proportion of people who say that are either mistaken or lying.

So when you talk about things you "know to be true" on account of things you "experienced personally," no, you don't. Yours is a claim too extraordinary for your personal experience to sustain. You may find it convincing, but don't expect anyone else to take it seriously.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 05, 2017, 08:29:59 PM
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"Very little exposure"? Nobody said "God bless you"? You didn't celebrate Christmas? Were there no churches in the area? Did you not read Shakespeare, or most other English literature? Did you hear no incidents about the Ten Commandments being put on courthouse lawns, or Kitzmiller v. Dover, or other religious kerfuffles? Because unless you were living on an island somewhere, I very much doubt it.

So, yeah, you knew what the Christian god was and you even spent half a year where people tried to hammer it into your skull as a viable explanation for the world. I would call that priming.
And yet, when you committed yourself to theism, you didn't go with Hindu gods, or Norse gods, or Greek gods, or Egyptian gods, but the Christian god. Funny coincidence that, when you decided that a god was part of the truth, it's the god that you had the most exposure to.

Anyway, while you may not call yourself a Christian, it still doesn't negate my point. The fact that you think that you "experienced" your god is neither here nor there. I don't doubt that you experienced something that changed your life, and changed you from what you would call an atheist into someone who believed in the Christian god, but going to call it a "god" is not warranted, especially if you have no extraordinary proof to back up your claims. And no, just because a tribe of near-ignorant goat-hearders from the first century wrote down something that sounds like what you experienced in retrospect doesn't prove your god either, because that could have been easily the result of your priming in the first grade, your brain revising that exprience (as we know brains are wont to do), or a combination of both. I don't even necessarily believe you when you say that you were ever an atheist, because an uncomfortable proportion of people who say that are either mistaken or lying.

So when you talk about things you "know to be true" on account of things you "experienced personally," no, you don't. Yours is a claim too extraordinary for your personal experience to sustain. You may find it convincing, but don't expect anyone else to take it seriously.
I really have no interest in speaking with you if you are just going to repeayedly assume things. I have studied the Gita and upinashads. I actually read the Gita at the same time I read the new testament, and finished it first.

Let me make this clear so you can stop assuming so much. I am a monotheist.

I believe there is One GOD; not a separate GOD for each religion. I wouldn't be offended if you said I had Hindu beliefs. Many sorts of hindus understand that though there are many gods there is ultimately only One CREATOR GOD of which all is of.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: aitm on November 05, 2017, 09:03:50 PM
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 It is my personal belief that some of this misdirection is still within the OT; for good reason. Basically I am saying that GOD would not have ordered the slaughter...

So....in other words....."allow me to cherry pick the verses that are relevant and truthful and to enlighten you as to the ones that are simply not".....oh my...how.....original
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 05, 2017, 09:14:33 PM
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So....in other words....."allow me to cherry pick the verses that are relevant and truthful and to enlighten you as to the ones that are simply not".....oh my...how.....original
No.

I would recommend your own comparative study of sacred texts and see that mercy, unity,  and equality has always been the underlying message. That, and that the Spirit is within each of us as potential at very least.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on November 05, 2017, 09:38:00 PM
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I really have no interest in speaking with you if you are just going to repeayedly assume things. I have studied the Gita and upinashads. I actually read the Gita at the same time I read the new testament, and finished it first.
So? Even though you finished the Gita first, you still went with the Christian god, which —coincidence of coincidence— is the one you had earliest exposure to. Your own testimony and behavior, not my "assumptions," lead me to the conclusion that you had been primed by Christian doctrine to believe in the Christian god. You did say, after all, that you had gone to a Christian school for half of first grade.

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Let me make this clear so you can stop assuming so much. I am a monotheist.

I believe there is One GOD; not a separate GOD for each religion. I wouldn't be offended if you said I had Hindu beliefs. Many sorts of hindus understand that though there are many gods there is ultimately only One CREATOR GOD of which all is of.
How does this prove you're not a Christian? You're certainly arrogant enough to be one by claiming the truth of the nature of the universe based on your experience. Christians don't think there's one god for each religion; they think there's one god, period — they, too, are monotheist. Furthermore, the god you went with is the one described by the Christian bible. As such, he would differ in quite significant ways from any Hinduist god; the two religions make very different claims to the nature of other claimed gods, for example.

Perhaps it's best that you don't respond to me, then, if this is the kind of discussion I can expect from you.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: popsthebuilder on November 05, 2017, 09:44:41 PM
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So? Even though you finished the Gita first, you still went with the Christian god, which —coincidence of coincidence— is the one you had earliest exposure to. Your own testimony and behavior, not my "assumptions," lead me to the conclusion that you had been primed by Christian doctrine to believe in the Christian god. You did say, after all, that you had gone to a Christian school for half of first grade.
How does this prove you're not a Christian? You're certainly arrogant enough to be one by claiming the truth of the nature of the universe based on your experience. Christians don't think there's one god for each religion; they think there's one god, period — they, too, are monotheist. Furthermore, the god you went with is the one described by the Christian bible. As such, he would differ in quite significant ways from any Hinduist god; the two religions make very different claims to the nature of other claimed gods, for example.

Perhaps it's best that you don't respond to me, then, if this is the kind of discussion I can expect from you.
You might have e trouble finding a Christian who understands that Allah means GOD.

you would have a difficult task ahead of you if you had to find a Christian who understands the small quite voice and fire of the heart to be the Holy Spirit.

You finding a Christian that accepts Azura Mazda as an acceptable name of GOD isn't too likely to happen.

Yet here I am. So please;do take your own advice.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on November 06, 2017, 01:42:13 AM
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You might have e trouble finding a Christian who understands that Allah means GOD.

Actually, the first time I heard that was from a Christian.

Quote
you would have a difficult task ahead of you if you had to find a Christian who understands the small quite voice and fire of the heart to be the Holy Spirit.

I'm pretty sure this was common knowledge in all the churches I've been a part of.

Quote
You finding a Christian that accepts Azura Mazda as an acceptable name of GOD isn't too likely to happen.

And they shouldn't either, because Azura is portrayed as a completely different god than the ones in the Bible. And the Bible does describe multiple gods, of completely different characteristics.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2017, 07:05:30 AM
Ahura Mazda was a Persian god who only liked one brand of Japanese car ;-)

Blackleaf - you had the advantage of not being Catholic.  Evangelicals at least believe in the Holy Spirit, if not glossolalia.  Most Christians would not say "Allah" is Arabic for G-d ... your example is the exception that proves the rule.

The cosmic conflict between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman ... is foundational for the NT view, quite different than Jehovah and his employee, Satan ... in the OT view.  Persia was very influential in Judaism and Islam ... and indirectly into Christianity as well.  But at least the Abrahamics didn't adopt "sky burial".
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 06, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
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If suicidal depression is a philosophy ... then go be lower than Nietzsche if you can.  See ... not all thinking is philosophy, some of it is mental illness.  Consider Nietzsche ...
I've been a nihilist (http://www.counterorder.com/nihilism.html) for decades, and I've never been in any suicidal depression, felt no existential despair, or anything even remotely resembling those. My nihilism frees me from the constant search for meaning that many people seem to be obsessed with.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 06, 2017, 06:15:50 PM
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I've been a nihilist (http://www.counterorder.com/nihilism.html) for decades, and I've never been in any suicidal depression, felt no existential despair, or anything even remotely resembling those. My nihilism frees me from the constant search for meaning that many people seem to be obsessed with.
I like that website--reflects a lot of what I think.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 06, 2017, 06:17:07 PM
There's a lot of stuff there, I've been loving it for years.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2017, 07:15:41 PM
Self therapy?  You both find meaning posting here .. so I don't believe you are ... duhduhduh ... true Scotsmen or true nihilists.

If you really believed "NIHILISM IS SANITY IN AN INSANE SOCIETY" then you would be sociopaths.  Society isn't insane, except to the sociopath.  And as I recall, sociopaths don't suffer from depression either.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

I would rather be unjustly executed by the Athenians, than be a sociopath.  But was Socrates a sociopath? ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
Theism (broadly defined or not), there IS a clear distinction between theists and atheists.  And those who are very theistic and those who are barely theistic are still theistic.

To put in in practical terms, those who how have a full head of hair and those with thinning hair still have hair.  Think of atheists as "utterly bald" in that regard.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 06:30:15 AM
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Theism (broadly defined or not), there IS a clear distinction between theists and atheists.  And those who are very theistic and those who are barely theistic are still theistic.

To put in in practical terms, those who how have a full head of hair and those with thinning hair still have hair.  Think of atheists as "utterly bald" in that regard.

Some of us are so hairy, we grow hair inward.  Ingrown furry intelligence, like you for instance ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 08:42:22 AM
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Some of us are so hairy, we grow hair inward.  Ingrown furry intelligence, like you for instance ;-)

I am not hairy.  Outwardly or inwardly.  If you to claim being either, that is your business.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 01:14:21 PM
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I am not hairy.  Outwardly or inwardly.  If you to claim being either, that is your business.

So you are a grub, not a caterpillar ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 02:27:13 PM
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So you are a grub, not a caterpillar ;-)

Neither a grub, nor a caterpillar, nor butterfly I be. 
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 07, 2017, 07:18:36 PM
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Neither a grub, nor a caterpillar, nor butterfly I be.

No hope for you then.  Rocks develop very slowly compared to grubs etc.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 12:31:35 AM
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No hope for you then.  Rocks develop very slowly compared to grubs etc.

I am also not a rock.  I am a full-fledged human, rational and thoughtful.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:06:55 AM
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I am also not a rock.  I am a full-fledged human, rational and thoughtful.

You may be X, but act as Y.  This is of course, irrational ...
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 05:44:39 AM
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You may be X, but act as Y.  This is of course, irrational ...

And if I was xy and stayed an xy you would when say I was "rational"?  Or would that bother you like pulling out a tooth?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:26:45 AM
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And if I was xy and stayed an xy you would when say I was "rational"?  Or would that bother you like pulling out a tooth?

People make all sorts of claims, about themselves and others, that have no basis in fact.  And they claim to be factual ... and rational.  I consider all humans to be used car salesmen.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 12:10:32 PM
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People make all sorts of claims, about themselves and others, that have no basis in fact.  And they claim to be factual ... and rational.  I consider all humans to be used car salesmen.

I'm sorry you think that way.  Only 10% of them are.  If you allow for all slesmen/women of all products.  Most of the rest of us are actually productive.  Who do you think builds houses?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 12:59:42 PM
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I'm sorry you think that way.  Only 10% of them are.  If you allow for all slesmen/women of all products.  Most of the rest of us are actually productive.  Who do you think builds houses?

Carpenters, plumbers etc.  But if you ask the banks, it is bankers making reckless loans to dead beats.  Just like any other work place ... the management think they do everything, and their subordinates are ... worthless.  Easier just to do it yourself, they tell themselves.  It is actually a dialectic, everything is.  There are no rich without the poor etc.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 01:36:46 PM
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Carpenters, plumbers etc.  But if you ask the banks, it is bankers making reckless loans to dead beats.  Just like any other work place ... the management think they do everything, and their subordinates are ... worthless.  Easier just to do it yourself, they tell themselves.  It is actually a dialectic, everything is.  There are no rich without the poor etc.

The best office years of my life were when I had supervisor who didn't even PRETEND to know what I was doing.  The only time I ever bothered him was when I needed a letter signed and his only question was "Will this get me in trouble?".  And my answer was that I would sign it myself.  When he retired, I did sign the letters myself.   
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:02:54 PM
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The best office years of my life were when I had supervisor who didn't even PRETEND to know what I was doing.  The only time I ever bothered him was when I needed a letter signed and his only question was "Will this get me in trouble?".  And my answer was that I would sign it myself.  When he retired, I did sign the letters myself.   

Similar for me in the current job.  I actually am competent, and can be trusted.  But that doesn't mean I don't inadvertently embarrass him ... I wouldn't want to ... but shit happens.  When we are young, having a short leash is more justified.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:08:52 PM
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Similar for me in the current job.  I actually am competent, and can be trusted.  But that doesn't mean I don't inadvertently embarrass him ... I wouldn't want to ... but shit happens.  When we are young, having a short leash is more justified.

This will seem stupid (but when did that ever stop me before)?  You know I'm not a bear in spite of my avatar.  But I keep seeing your avatar (a person) and picturing you as that.    Good thing you didn't choose Einstein or Darwin or Dad.  THAT would really have me messed up!
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:35:45 PM
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This will seem stupid (but when did that ever stop me before)?  You know I'm not a bear in spite of my avatar.  But I keep seeing your avatar (a person) and picturing you as that.    Good thing you didn't choose Einstein or Darwin or Dad.  THAT would really have me messed up!

Your dad or my dad?  Dad-dad (someplace in Iraq I hear)?

No, I would choose a person, preferably historical.  Spinoza is a better choice than Einstein or Darwin.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on November 12, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
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This will seem stupid (but when did that ever stop me before)?  You know I'm not a bear in spite of my avatar.  But I keep seeing your avatar (a person) and picturing you as that.    Good thing you didn't choose Einstein or Darwin or Dad.  THAT would really have me messed up!

You aren't a real cavebear?!

All i know is lies.
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 12, 2017, 12:32:11 PM
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You aren't a real cavebear?!

All i know is lies.

That is the nature of human psychology ... the futility of knowing.  Either you don't know, or what you know isn't so ... or if what you know is so, you wish you didn't know ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Blackleaf on November 12, 2017, 03:50:08 PM
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That is the nature of human psychology ... the futility of knowing.  Either you don't know, or what you know isn't so ... or if what you know is so, you wish you didn't know ;-)

How do you know that?
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Shiranu on November 12, 2017, 04:26:31 PM
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You aren't a real cavebear?!

All i know is lies.

At least I can always trust that you are a giant, man-killing praying mantis. I don't know how I would cope if even that was a lie...
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 12, 2017, 05:21:22 PM
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How do you know that?

Work it out yourself.  Venn diagram is your friend ;-)
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Cavebear on November 15, 2017, 04:55:39 AM
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Your dad or my dad?  Dad-dad (someplace in Iraq I hear)?

No, I would choose a person, preferably historical.  Spinoza is a better choice than Einstein or Darwin.

I agree completely.  Indeed, I was apologizing for MY failure to understand your choice of avatar.  You can't even take an APOLOGY?  Wow...
Title: Re: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?
Post by: Baruch on November 15, 2017, 06:49:06 PM
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I agree completely.  Indeed, I was apologizing for MY failure to understand your choice of avatar.  You can't even take an APOLOGY?  Wow...

It was Greek to me, or Bear-naise?