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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 11:47:39 AM

Title: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
About a month ago, one of those irritating old women came up to me in church to pat me on the head. I hate people who do that. It shows utter disrespect for the person. It's always snaggle-toothed hideous old women who do that. Anyway, she said she heard I did very well in my GCSE exam. She asked me if it was because I said my prayers. I told her no, I didn't say any prayer. She said she was sure I did. My mum who heard the conversation intervened and told the stupid old woman that I did say my prayers and she then took the woman aside to talk about other things. Later, my mum chided me. She said I should not contradict the old woman. I told her it was hypocritical to say I said my prayers when both my mum and I knew that prayers never work and when you say your prayers you are doing a soliloquy. My mum said there were things you have to say in polite society. If you hear that a church member is in trouble, you have to say that you'll keep the person in your prayers. It's not a lie because everybody knows nobody is going to pray about it. It's just courtesy.

I told her that was dumb hypocrisy. If someone is in trouble, I won't talk about dumb prayers. I'll tell him I'm sorry about what has happened and I hope it'll get better. That's so much better than to keep the person in your prayer. My mum said that was all right too. But still if an old woman goes to an altar boy in church to congratulate him on his school work, it's inappropriate to tell her that I didn't pray. I don't agree. Telling the stupid old woman that I didn't pray was the mildest thing I could have said. I should have told her that if she touched my head again, I'd rape her granddaughter.  Of course I didn't say that to my mum. We don't say such things in polite society.

It's funny how a lot of people are just cultural Christians like both my parents. But they believe in saying the right religious things out of courtesy. It's dishonest and hypocritical.

I don't know what the rest of you think but I don't think God has a place in polite society. One can be equally polite without pretending to pray. The funny thing is that witch of an old woman herself probably doesn't really believe in God. But everybody is playing the Pretend-We-Are-Religious game. I think if everyone is really honest, 90% of churchgoers will say they don't really believe in God.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 12:27:29 PM
There are many things about God believers that irritate me. Apart from the hypocrisy I've just mentioned, they also say the stupidest things. As a churchgoing altar boy, I get to meet more Christians than most people. There are many things believers say that grate on my nerves.

The other day, I heard an old man say 'Atheism is a religion'. I'm convinced anyone who says that must have the brain of a not-too-clever bonobo. In my argument with the sock puppet Drew_2017, I brought up a lot of the tricks employed by theists. There are many tricks up the sleeves of believers and one major trick is to shift the onus of proof. William Lane Craig does this all the time. Of course Craig is a slimy dishonest old toad who would have been one mean used car salesman. When a madman says that atheism is a religion he hopes to achieve two things by dishonest means:

1. He hopes to bring down the credibility of atheism to the level of his own religion.

2. When he calls atheism a religion (ie a belief in something), he hopes to mislead his listeners into thinking that the atheist then has the onus of proof. He must prove that his belief is true. In CF, one dumb woman insisted that the burden of proof was on the atheist to prove that there is no god. When I told her you can't prove a negative just as you can't prove there is NO teacup circling planet Mars, she replied that the atheist believed in a non-god and that's positive belief.

These are examples why it's easy to despise believers; they are so incredibly dumb.

There should be a law requiring such people to wear dunce caps.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: aitm on October 02, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
The anger is strong in this one.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 12:48:36 PM
Quote from: aitm on October 02, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
The anger is strong in this one.

No, there is no anger in me. I just can't stand stupid people who say stupid things and theists are notorious for saying the stupidest things. I'm still an altar boy and I like the rituals which are very old. I just don't like the dumbness that usually goes with it.  I think the stupid old women will die soon enough and once that happens, there will be far fewer morons around.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 12:53:49 PM
Then why you go to church is beyond me.  You willingly put yourself among the people who irritate you the most.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 12:53:49 PM
Then why you go to church is beyond me.  You willingly put yourself among the people who irritate you the most.

I go with my parents. It's been like this all my life.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Baruch on October 02, 2017, 01:19:49 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 12:53:49 PM
Then why you go to church is beyond me.  You willingly put yourself among the people who irritate you the most.

The stereotype is a maiden spinster aunt, who pinches your cheeks when she greets you ;-)
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Unbeliever on October 02, 2017, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
About a month ago, one of those irritating old women came up to me in church to pat me on the head. I hate people who do that. It shows utter disrespect for the person.


Yeah, it's only funny when Benny Hill does it:

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/a8130af3a397f3123d57862d6c7adf67/tumblr_n7wodv0EfI1rd5rz4o1_250.gif)


QuoteIt's always snaggle-toothed hideous old women who do that. Anyway, she said she heard I did very well in my GCSE exam. She asked me if it was because I said my prayers. I told her no, I didn't say any prayer. She said she was sure I did.

She had faith in your praying, huh? At least you didn't tell her you prayed to Baal, or some such!



QuoteMy mum who heard the conversation intervened and told the stupid old woman that I did say my prayers and she then took the woman aside to talk about other things. Later, my mum chided me. She said I should not contradict the old woman. I told her it was hypocritical to say I said my prayers when both my mum and I knew that prayers never work and when you say your prayers you are doing a soliloquy. My mum said there were things you have to say in polite society. If you hear that a church member is in trouble, you have to say that you'll keep the person in your prayers. It's not a lie because everybody knows nobody is going to pray about it. It's just courtesy.

I told her that was dumb hypocrisy. If someone is in trouble, I won't talk about dumb prayers. I'll tell him I'm sorry about what has happened and I hope it'll get better. That's so much better than to keep the person in your prayer. My mum said that was all right too. But still if an old woman goes to an altar boy in church to congratulate him on his school work, it's inappropriate to tell her that I didn't pray. I don't agree. Telling the stupid old woman that I didn't pray was the mildest thing I could have said. I should have told her that if she touched my head again, I'd rape her granddaughter.  Of course I didn't say that to my mum. We don't say such things in polite society.

Must conform to societal expectations...must conform! What will people think if we're honest with them, instead of playing some silly head game of pretending to believe what they expect us to believe?

I said to hell with that a long time ago. I may say nothing, but I won't try to deceive just for the sake of conformity. But you, being an altar boy, must keep up the appearances the Church insists on.

QuoteIt's funny how a lot of people are just cultural Christians like both my parents. But they believe in saying the right religious things out of courtesy.

That's one of the reasons that religion is still flourishing in our society. I think the vast majority of those who claim to believe in the fairy tale do not, in fact, believe at all.

QuoteI don't know what the rest of you think but I don't think God has a place in polite society. One can be equally polite without pretending to pray. The funny thing is that witch of an old woman herself probably doesn't really believe in God. But everybody is playing the Pretend-We-Are-Religious game. I think if everyone is really honest, 90% of churchgoers will say they don't really believe in God.

It'd be nice if we could get a survey in which people would honestly answer the question of their belief. I think there are a lot more atheists out there than are willing to admit it.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Unbeliever on October 02, 2017, 03:25:14 PM
Quote from: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 12:27:29 PM
The other day, I heard an old man say 'Atheism is a religion'. I'm convinced anyone who says that must have the brain of a not-too-clever bonobo.
I bet there are no bonobos that believe in God - they're all atheists, at least of the "weak" variety. I also think bonobos are smarter than the average theist, but I have no data to back up that contention.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Baruch on October 02, 2017, 07:03:24 PM
Keeping Up Appearances is a British social comedy ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caYP0utGeic

It isn't just a church survival technique for those people ;-)
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: sdelsolray on October 02, 2017, 08:54:25 PM

Quote from: aitm on October 02, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
The anger is strong in this one.
Quote from: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 12:48:36 PMNo, there is no anger in me. I just can't stand stupid people who say stupid things and theists are notorious for saying the stupidest things. I'm still an altar boy and I like the rituals which are very old. I just don't like the dumbness that usually goes with it.  I think the stupid old women will die soon enough and once that happens, there will be far fewer morons around.

Dunning-Kruger too.  Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 12:59:28 PM
I go with my parents. It's been like this all my life.
When you turn 16 will you still have to go?
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 03, 2017, 01:19:53 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 10:48:31 PM
When you turn 16 will you still have to go?

I'm so used to going to church with my parents on Sunday. We usually go earlier so I can put on my cassock and get ready for the Eucharist. There is always a little 'ceremony' in the vestry before we go in the procession to the altar. The altar boy takes the stole to the priest on some cushion of the correct colour of the season in the church calendar. The priest takes the stole and kisses the cross at the upper end of the stole and he puts it on. The joke we always make is in an RC church, the priest usually misses the cross and kisses the altar boy. LOL. Then the altar boys get the candles which are always put into very heavy silver candlesticks and we go out through a secret door to the main entrance of the church to wait for the processional played by the organist. The crucifer goes first followed by the altar boys. The priests go last but lately I have become taller and have been appointed a thurifer. You can only be a thurifer if you have grown in height. An altar boy who is still too short can't be a thurifer because it's a fire hazard if the thurible hits the floor or if the surplice gets caught in it.

Many people don't realise the training that's required before you can be an altar boy especially when the thurible is used. See this video of thurifer training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY59IUggkrE[/

I have been an altar boy for as long as I can remember. It won't be the same if I just don't go to church. That's why I've said it's cultural. You can't just change overnight. I don't believe in God and neither do my parents. But going to church is a different thing altogether. It's a cultural thing. Many of you seem to link going to church with a belief in God. Of course there are many who do believe in God. It's not easy to find altar boys these days. Many of the former acolytes I know have now left the church. My vicar tells me that someone no less than the Archbishop himself once remarked that I was a very faithful child of the church. They all know my stand - I don't believe but I am faithful. It's very hard to explain. You won't get it unless you understand the importance of culture.

I have been to Bali and the Balinese are people rich with ancient culture. It's based on Hinduism of course. It would be a shame if they give up their culture just because they no longer believe in the Hindu gods.

So, in answer to your question, I think I'll serve the church for as long as I can. The church always has need of acolytes and it's not as easy as most people think. You can't just get someone to turn up and be an acolyte. He has to go through elaborate training because it's easy to forget the steps and it can be disastrous. For example, holding the priest's surplice is extremely important. If you make a mistake, it can get caught in the thurible and it will immediately catch fire. I'm considered responsible enough by the church and I have swung the thurible during the procession. This is a great responsibility and a fire hazard if it's not handled properly.

When you attend church, you see everything fall in place neatly. There is never a hitch. The crucifer doesn't drop the processional cross on a parishioner's head. The altar boys don't burn themselves with the candles and when the thurible is passed round, there is never a careless slip. Most people don't understand that all this is only made possible because there are many rehearsals.  Acolytes all need training. For someone like me who has been an altar boy all his life, it would be a great loss to the church if I just stop going to church. And there are many boys who are like that. After training, they suddenly stop going to church. Naturally, the church can't rely on such boys.

A lot depends on my own personal sense of responsibility. I think I will continue to serve the church for as long as I live.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2017, 07:00:04 AM
Before television and movies ... Church liturgy was the only show in town.  Professional theatrics = liturgy.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Blackleaf on October 03, 2017, 11:16:27 AM
Quote from: St Truth on October 03, 2017, 01:19:53 AM
I'm so used to going to church with my parents on Sunday. We usually go earlier so I can put on my cassock and get ready for the Eucharist. There is always a little 'ceremony' in the vestry before we go in the procession to the altar. The altar boy takes the stole to the priest on some cushion of the correct colour of the season in the church calendar. The priest takes the stole and kisses the cross at the upper end of the stole and he puts it on. The joke we always make is in an RC church, the priest usually misses the cross and kisses the altar boy. LOL. Then the altar boys get the candles which are always put into very heavy silver candlesticks and we go out through a secret door to the main entrance of the church to wait for the processional played by the organist. The crucifer goes first followed by the altar boys. The priests go last but lately I have become taller and have been appointed a thurifer. You can only be a thurifer if you have grown in height. An altar boy who is still too short can't be a thurifer because it's a fire hazard if the thurible hits the floor or if the surplice gets caught in it.

Many people don't realise the training that's required before you can be an altar boy especially when the thurible is used. See this video of thurifer training:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY59IUggkrE[/

I have been an altar boy for as long as I can remember. It won't be the same if I just don't go to church. That's why I've said it's cultural. You can't just change overnight. I don't believe in God and neither do my parents. But going to church is a different thing altogether. It's a cultural thing. Many of you seem to link going to church with a belief in God. Of course there are many who do believe in God. It's not easy to find altar boys these days. Many of the former acolytes I know have now left the church. My vicar tells me that someone no less than the Archbishop himself once remarked that I was a very faithful child of the church. They all know my stand - I don't believe but I am faithful. It's very hard to explain. You won't get it unless you understand the importance of culture.

I have been to Bali and the Balinese are people rich with ancient culture. It's based on Hinduism of course. It would be a shame if they give up their culture just because they no longer believe in the Hindu gods.

So, in answer to your question, I think I'll serve the church for as long as I can. The church always has need of acolytes and it's not as easy as most people think. You can't just get someone to turn up and be an acolyte. He has to go through elaborate training because it's easy to forget the steps and it can be disastrous. For example, holding the priest's surplice is extremely important. If you make a mistake, it can get caught in the thurible and it will immediately catch fire. I'm considered responsible enough by the church and I have swung the thurible during the procession. This is a great responsibility and a fire hazard if it's not handled properly.

When you attend church, you see everything fall in place neatly. There is never a hitch. The crucifer doesn't drop the processional cross on a parishioner's head. The altar boys don't burn themselves with the candles and when the thurible is passed round, there is never a careless slip. Most people don't understand that all this is only made possible because there are many rehearsals.  Acolytes all need training. For someone like me who has been an altar boy all his life, it would be a great loss to the church if I just stop going to church. And there are many boys who are like that. After training, they suddenly stop going to church. Naturally, the church can't rely on such boys.

A lot depends on my own personal sense of responsibility. I think I will continue to serve the church for as long as I live.

Sounds like any other force of habit. IMO, going to church is just a waste of time and money. Church is a business made for scamming people out of their money and controlling people. Christian culture can survive the same way Greek/Roman cultures have: through art. But they won't get another penny out of me.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 03, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on October 03, 2017, 11:16:27 AM
Sounds like any other force of habit. IMO, going to church is just a waste of time and money. Church is a business made for scamming people out of their money and controlling people. Christian culture can survive the same way Greek/Roman cultures have: through art. But they won't get another penny out of me.

It used to be that way. Except for the RC church which still controls the minds of disadvantaged people in South America and parts of Africa, most churches don't operate that way any more. The Church of England and I"m sure the Scandinavian state churches don't prey on weak people. Their congregations are not that weak or disadvantaged as RC congregations.

Of course like any organisation, the Church needs money to run. But it's not true that they are always trying to get money out of you. The charity arm of the church is very strong. I didn't know how effective the church was until I came to this country where Christianity is a minority religion and to my surprise, the bulk of charities in the country, including homes for orphans, old folks and hospices for the dying, homes for the destitute, etc are run primarily by churches. If the church were just a sham organisation intended to cream us of our money, they wouldn't be devoting so much of their resources on activities that won't earn them money. Even in this country in which there are only very few Christians, Christianity has a very good reputation.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 03, 2017, 11:47:14 AM
I don't have a problem with using religious language in my daily life, whether it's to appease the crazies or get my point across. It's perfectly fine to talk about God in polite society, provided you aren't preaching. If someone does start preaching to me, I just start my sermon: LET ME SHOW YOU THE POWER OF TALOS STORMCROWN!
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Baruch on October 03, 2017, 01:29:44 PM
Quote from: St Truth on October 03, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
It used to be that way. Except for the RC church which still controls the minds of disadvantaged people in South America and parts of Africa, most churches don't operate that way any more. The Church of England and I"m sure the Scandinavian state churches don't prey on weak people. Their congregations are not that weak or disadvantaged as RC congregations.

Of course like any organisation, the Church needs money to run. But it's not true that they are always trying to get money out of you. The charity arm of the church is very strong. I didn't know how effective the church was until I came to this country where Christianity is a minority religion and to my surprise, the bulk of charities in the country, including homes for orphans, old folks and hospices for the dying, homes for the destitute, etc are run primarily by churches. If the church were just a sham organisation intended to cream us of our money, they wouldn't be devoting so much of their resources on activities that won't earn them money. Even in this country in which there are only very few Christians, Christianity has a very good reputation.

Before the welfare state, the church and family were the only charities.  Socialism damages many things ... including family and church.  Unfortunately the modern mega-state is too big a charity case for family and church to take care of.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Blackleaf on October 03, 2017, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: St Truth on October 03, 2017, 11:28:13 AM
It used to be that way. Except for the RC church which still controls the minds of disadvantaged people in South America and parts of Africa, most churches don't operate that way any more. The Church of England and I"m sure the Scandinavian state churches don't prey on weak people. Their congregations are not that weak or disadvantaged as RC congregations.

Of course like any organisation, the Church needs money to run. But it's not true that they are always trying to get money out of you. The charity arm of the church is very strong. I didn't know how effective the church was until I came to this country where Christianity is a minority religion and to my surprise, the bulk of charities in the country, including homes for orphans, old folks and hospices for the dying, homes for the destitute, etc are run primarily by churches. If the church were just a sham organisation intended to cream us of our money, they wouldn't be devoting so much of their resources on activities that won't earn them money. Even in this country in which there are only very few Christians, Christianity has a very good reputation.

Does the Pope not still claim to speak for God? Do Catholic churches not still perpetuate their outdated moral code? I remember the drama when the current Pope declared that gays can be Christians. The Catholic church is still an oppressive organization. The priests still have a position of power they use to take advantage of children and women. The sooner we can separate religion and politics, the better.

Perhaps it's different in England, but churches here do not have to make public how much money they spend. Who knows how much they're spending on charity? Most churches spend a ton of money they don't have to expand their facilities, build ten story crosses and obligatory gyms. I'd rather give my money to a secular organization, where I will know where my money is going.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2017, 02:26:00 PM
Help me out, does "Polite Society" mean I have to put up with their godbothering shit?
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: St Truth on October 03, 2017, 08:27:18 PM
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 03, 2017, 02:26:00 PM
Help me out, does "Polite Society" mean I have to put up with their godbothering shit?

If your parents invite priests and bishops to your house for lunch regularly, yes you have to put up with their godbothering shit.
Title: Re: God in Polite Society
Post by: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 02:43:48 AM
Quote from: St Truth on October 02, 2017, 11:47:39 AM
About a month ago, one of those irritating old women came up to me in church to pat me on the head. I hate people who do that. It shows utter disrespect for the person. It's always snaggle-toothed hideous old women who do that. Anyway, she said she heard I did very well in my GCSE exam. She asked me if it was because I said my prayers. I told her no, I didn't say any prayer. She said she was sure I did. My mum who heard the conversation intervened and told the stupid old woman that I did say my prayers and she then took the woman aside to talk about other things. Later, my mum chided me. She said I should not contradict the old woman. I told her it was hypocritical to say I said my prayers when both my mum and I knew that prayers never work and when you say your prayers you are doing a soliloquy. My mum said there were things you have to say in polite society. If you hear that a church member is in trouble, you have to say that you'll keep the person in your prayers. It's not a lie because everybody knows nobody is going to pray about it. It's just courtesy.

I told her that was dumb hypocrisy. If someone is in trouble, I won't talk about dumb prayers. I'll tell him I'm sorry about what has happened and I hope it'll get better. That's so much better than to keep the person in your prayer. My mum said that was all right too. But still if an old woman goes to an altar boy in church to congratulate him on his school work, it's inappropriate to tell her that I didn't pray. I don't agree. Telling the stupid old woman that I didn't pray was the mildest thing I could have said. I should have told her that if she touched my head again, I'd rape her granddaughter.  Of course I didn't say that to my mum. We don't say such things in polite society.

It's funny how a lot of people are just cultural Christians like both my parents. But they believe in saying the right religious things out of courtesy. It's dishonest and hypocritical.

I don't know what the rest of you think but I don't think God has a place in polite society. One can be equally polite without pretending to pray. The funny thing is that witch of an old woman herself probably doesn't really believe in God. But everybody is playing the Pretend-We-Are-Religious game. I think if everyone is really honest, 90% of churchgoers will say they don't really believe in God.

God has no place in a rational society.  Some of us are just more honest about it than others.

My parents, both vague agnostics, told me to hide my atheism from their relatives to keep the family peace.  I didn't.   My wealthy "Godmother" finally wrote that she would "forget me" if I didn't change.  I never replied.  I'm not bribable.