http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html)
QuoteA gunman turned a Las Vegas concert into a killing field Sunday night, murdering at least 50 people and injuring more than 200 others in the deadliest mass shooting in modern United States history.
The gunman, who fired down on the concert from a room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino, was killed by police.
ldean was performing his last song of the night. Initially, those in attendance said they thought the sound was firecrackers. But as the shots continued, Aldean stopped singing and some concertgoers could be heard yelling to each other to get down.
One witness told KSVN that he heard “hundreds of shots.†The gunfire was rapid and reportedly confused with firecrackers.
"It sounded like a machine gun," one vendor told Fox News. "It sounded like more than one machine gun."
Authorities said law enforcement swarmed the hotel and killed the gunman in a room on the 32nd floor. Responding officers used an explosive device to force the door open into the room to shoot Paddock dead, law enforcement officials told Fox News.
Is it still not the time to worry about how saturated with guns America is? At what point will we finally say, "Enough mass shootings are enough. We have to take SOME action."?
Has anyone heard from Kimmy? aitm?
E:Can't see her nick in the list.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 02, 2017, 08:11:48 AM
Has anyone heard from Kimmy? aitm?
E:Can't see her nick in the list.
HOLY CRAP YOU'RE ALIVE!
Why wouldn't I be alive?
Kimmy used to live in Las Vegas, I don't know if she is still there, but I am worried about her. This one looks really, really bad.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 02, 2017, 08:33:11 AM
Why wouldn't I be alive?
Kimmy used to live in Las Vegas, I don't know if she is still there, but I am worried about her. This one looks really, really bad.
Hello love. Not seen Kimmy in a long time. I don't think she was a country music fan though, that's all I got. Be nice to see you more often. We have a couple new members that could use a good slap from time to time.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 02, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html)
Is it still not the time to worry about how saturated with guns America is? At what point will we finally say, "Enough mass shootings are enough. We have to take SOME action."?
Most Americans don't own guns. Most American gun owners own one gun. My cousins average 15 each.
But but..if the good guys all had guns.....
Folks, this is not going to end. Just when you think it can't get any worse it does.
Kimmy was on the site a few months ago..
Quote from: aitm on October 02, 2017, 08:37:00 AM
Hello love. Not seen Kimmy in a long time. I don't think she was a country music fan though, that's all I got. Be nice to see you more often. We have a couple new members that could use a good slap from time to time.
Hey. No, she wasn't a country music fan. But it is festival season...who knows. It's fucking horrible. I hope he died in extreme agony. I mean guys, we are in deep deep shit; like you can't imagine kind of shit. Yet noone has opened fire in a concert just because they can. oh sorry, I know, he is 'mentally ill'. Though I am expecting good old American democracy raining down in a few years. :)
And the old ones don't? Everyone will instantly become saints, if
I do any slapping. So it doesn't count, not worth it. :p
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 02, 2017, 09:07:30 AM
Kimmy was on the site a few months ago..
I hope she is OK. Hey, APA. Hope you are fine. I'll write.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 02, 2017, 08:11:48 AM
Has anyone heard from Kimmy? aitm?
E:Can't see her nick in the list.
Shoe!!!! Welcome back!!
Quote from: Shiranu on October 02, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html)
Is it still not the time to worry about how saturated with guns America is? At what point will we finally say, "Enough mass shootings are enough. We have to take SOME action."?
Come on!!--Shiranu, it is people who kill people not guns! Don't ya know that by now??!!
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 09:34:14 AM
Shoe!!!! Welcome back!!
Hey, Mike. Hope you are fine.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 02, 2017, 09:39:28 AM
Hey, Mike. Hope you are fine.
As fine as I can be with Trump 'running' (ruining) things. Was concerned about you since you seem to under the thumb of your own Trump.
I want to get cynical, but it won't do much good. I definitely think twice before going to any large gatherings of people. It's not just feeling paranoid. I really don't like crowded places safe or not.
Hey Romeo (Shoe) What happened to your promise to the he man woman haters club? You're posting here again..
I guess I'd have to explain this bit of backward logic, huh? Nah! I'll let you try to figure it out.. ;)
Well, technically I am not posting. I have seen the videos, I felt sick. Sick. Don't watch it. This is probably the biggest mass shooting of the kind in the US history. I remembered Kimmy. Then guessed that shir would post it and that you idiots would just go cnyical-sarcastic on it...etc. :) My mission is complete. Mwah.
As Lily Tomlin said, I get more cynical every day, but I can't keep up. There are more guns in American than people, so this sort of thing will keep happening - and it'll get worse. The NRA has too much power and won't give up any. I think the Republicans believe that the more people killed by guns, the more jobs will be created.
I wonder what the shooters motive was, or if we'll ever find out.
Trumps boiler plate 'response' over.. Let us pray, blah blah blah.. Well I for one feel reassured.. Thank GAWD for boiler plate presidential speeches..
How soon before we read that is all Trump’s fault.
Here in Europe guns are banned.
No shortage of knives, machetes, cars, trucks, bombs.
We manage quite well without guns.
I admit, guns are more efficient. Although it still needs a human to use it.
Edit
while I was posting, Trump got an honorable mention. Good going.
Quote from: pr126 on October 02, 2017, 11:06:49 AM
How soon before we read that is all Trump’s fault.
Here in Europe guns are banned.
No shortage of knives, machetes, cars, trucks, bombs.
We manage quite well without guns.
I admit, guns are more efficient. Although it still needs a human to use it.
Edit
while I was posting, Trump got an honorable mention. Good going.
Hey darling. How is Mordor doing? No ISIL or DAESH vid about the attack? Are you losing your touch?
Quote from: pr126 on October 02, 2017, 11:06:49 AM
How soon before we read that is all Trump’s fault.
Here in Europe guns are banned.
No shortage of knives, machetes, cars, trucks, bombs.
We manage quite well without guns.
I admit, guns are more efficient. Although it still needs a human to use it.
Edit
while I was posting, Trump got an honorable mention. Good going.
Shooter in Vegas fired from the 32nd floor. I guess a rocket launcher and shit load of rounds would equate to the rifle fire, but he didn't have rockets.
Yeah, Trumps boiler plate response was the cause of it after the fact.. He snuck 12 hours back in time.. Amazing stuff those personal time travel devices are.. gotta get me one.
There is a rumour that this guy is from sovereign citizen. I have no idea what that is. Apparently it is an anti gov thing. Does anyone know anything about this?
https://en.0wikipedia.org/index.php?q=aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvU292ZXJlaWduX2NpdGl6ZW5fbW92ZW1lbnQjVS5TLl9nb3Zlcm5tZW50X3Jlc3BvbnNlcw
"The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) classifies some sovereign citizens ("sovereign citizen extremists") as domestic terrorists.[14] In 2010, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) estimated that approximately 100,000 Americans were "hard-core sovereign believers", with another 200,000 "just starting out by testing sovereign techniques for resisting everything from speeding tickets to drug charges".[15]
In surveys conducted in 2014 and 2015, representatives of US law-enforcement ranked the risk of terrorism from the sovereign citizen movement higher than the risk from Islamic extremism.[16][17] Sovereign citizens have also been identified as a potential terrorist threat by the New South Wales Police Force in Australia.[18]"
Interesting. A quick snippet from the guys brother makes me wonder if that is real or not.
Somewhat off topic but related is this tidbit from an article about gunmakers in general;
QuoteIt is not uncommon for shares of gun makers to rise after high-profile shootings, and oftentimes the initial price moves are sparked by computer-driven trades that buy on the news.
Although it makes sense, I simply never thought of having a computer program searching for shooting incidents and then raising or even buying stock before humans can react. Not sure how I feel about that, but I suppose if you can make a quick 10-20 thousand or more.....
Quote from: Shiranu on October 02, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html)
Is it still not the time to worry about how saturated with guns America is? At what point will we finally say, "Enough mass shootings are enough. We have to take SOME action."?
What sort of action would you like to see take place?
Quote from: aitm on October 02, 2017, 12:25:33 PM
Interesting. A quick snippet from the guys brother makes me wonder if that is real or not.
Scary, aitm. It's good that the country is huge.
Another off topic bit. I have spent last May in the States. I had a chance to talk to people here and there in Portland and around. In restaurants, bars, parks, streets...etc. (I met a young veteran who lost his memory. That was interesting. He had a russian girl friend with a weird flower name from our side of the world.) Americans from different age groups and backgrounds. All white. Fucking region is too white. Anyway, the hot issue was homeless people. Every time. And I was repeatedly told how abnormally it is rising everywhere. I don't know how accurate it is. I was told about Los Angeles and so on, but it is a metropol isn't it? People talked about it like it is the main fobia and as if something big coming. ? There was a sweet 21 year old kid nodding and laughing to that, 'because it is almost impossible to get on your feet afterwards'. She was bright, living in poverty. I have listened pretty sad life stories. What I am saying is, it is not a surprise these kind of groups would find a lot of supporters. Think about living like that for a long time. Esp. in this age when young. Easy prey for any fucking fanatics. And in this climate.
By the way, how was it when irma hit. I checked on you from here, saw that you are alive. We had a few earth quakes. one was 6. It was bad. If I was in the city, I would be scared shitless. This summer was cold over here. Can ya believe it. Weather was fucked up this year man. This summer was fucked up all over anyway. I am still by the Aegean shores. It's basically getting cold at this date.
QuoteSomewhat off topic but related is this tidbit from an article about gunmakers in general;
Although it makes sense, I simply never thought of having a computer program searching for shooting incidents and then raising or even buying stock before humans can react. Not sure how I feel about that, but I suppose if you can make a quick 10-20 thousand or more.....
Tons of people would do that if you ask me. It's fucked up.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 02, 2017, 11:19:32 AM
Hey darling. How is Mordor doing? No ISIL or DAESH vid about the attack? Are you losing your touch?
ISIS claims the shooter converted to Islam months ago. But known terrorists are known for their honesty. And welcome back, glad to know you aren't in a Turkish prison yet ;-(
Quote from: Shiranu on October 02, 2017, 07:28:03 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/reports-active-shooter-near-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas.html)
Is it still not the time to worry about how saturated with guns America is? At what point will we finally say, "Enough mass shootings are enough. We have to take SOME action."?
I agree that automatic weapons shouldn't be held by civilians. Also large ammo clips should be illegal (like having a silencer or sawed off shotgun). But Democrats shouldn't be allowed more than a plastic spork ...
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 02, 2017, 08:51:07 AM
Most Americans don't own guns. Most American gun owners own one gun. My cousins average 15 each.
The shooter had 10+ guns in his hotel room (where he offed himself). Gun nut. Therefore Republicans are evil.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 02, 2017, 09:36:55 AM
Come on!!--Shiranu, it is people who kill people not guns! Don't ya know that by now??!!
It is Democrats who subvert good government (by Republicans of course).
I have known one "sovereign citizen" casually. Extreme Libertarian with conspiracy theory about government. He was a tax protestor, and a nut. Separately I have known several gun nuts. Combine sovereign citizen with a gun nut, and you probably have "trouble in River City".
Hey Baruch. Glad to know you aren't in some sort of an asylum yet. I just came to check on.
So you think he converted to islam at 64 and handed himself to one of these groups for something llike this? A 64 year old white American male, in months, became an islamic terrorist. With what motivation? Islamic terrorists are almost always very young males with a certain standing/class in the society. They do not have girl friends. Certainly not Asian ones. While anything is possible, the profile doesn't fit. On the other hand, for America, islamic terrorism looks like the better option for blame I guess.
We don't know it, heck, I doubt if we ever will, but this group doesn't just seem like 'libertarian nuts' to me. I wonder how many of them are armed.
Hey Shoe! Glad to see you are still around and doing well.
As far as the blame game goes you should see what is being said on some of the conservative websites. They were blaming antifa liberals or BLM within minutes of this terrible event hitting the news.
Hotels don't have security? I mean 10 guns and no one noticed?
Just terrible.
Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
Quote from: Sal1981 on October 02, 2017, 02:44:13 PM
Hotels don't have security? I mean 10 guns and no one noticed?
Just terrible.
Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
Golf bag.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 02, 2017, 02:21:13 PM
Hey Shoe! Glad to see you are still around and doing well.
Hey Pop. :) I'm OK, it is pretty fucked up over here though.
QuoteAs far as the blame game goes you should see what is being said on some of the conservative websites. They were blaming antifa liberals or BLM within minutes of this terrible event hitting the news.
Oh ffs.
It's terrible. I can't even imagine what those people's families are doing.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 02, 2017, 02:21:13 PM
Hey Shoe! Glad to see you are still around and doing well.
As far as the blame game goes you should see what is being said on some of the conservative websites. They were blaming antifa liberals or BLM within minutes of this terrible event hitting the news.
I've also heard (on the Armstrong and Getty show this morning) that many people are blaming unbelief in God (specifically, the Judeo/Christian God) as the cause of the increase in these types of events. Like belief in God ever kept people from doing horrendous things. Yeah, riiight!
Whatever I hear about this for at least the first week or so I'll take with a big grain of salt. Rumors fly all over the place, so lots of misinformation and disinformation will be rampant.
"But it's not the guns..." Yes, it's the guns.
Nutball managed to sneak 10 rifles into his room
Mowed down a bunch of people
And he hotel never checked for anything out of the ordinary
Something's wrong with the system
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 02, 2017, 05:56:57 PM
Nutball managed to sneak 10 rifles into his room
Mowed down a bunch of people
And he hotel never checked for anything out of the ordinary
Something's wrong with the system
Do you check golf bags for rifles?
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 02, 2017, 05:56:57 PM
Nutball managed to sneak 10 rifles into his room
Mowed down a bunch of people
And he hotel never checked for anything out of the ordinary
Something's wrong with the system
He was there since the 28th. He could have taken in dozens or rifles broken down, in suitcases. What is more natural in a hotel than a suitcase? A couple of suitcases a day would not be unusual. Do we really want to be 'wanded' into hotels now? Do we really want hotels to check our luggage? I don't really want a system to checking into a hotel or motel room--unless the system is a reservation conformation system.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 02, 2017, 02:11:25 PM
Hey Baruch. Glad to know you aren't in some sort of an asylum yet. I just came to check on.
So you think he converted to islam at 64 and handed himself to one of these groups for something llike this? A 64 year old white American male, in months, became an islamic terrorist. With what motivation? Islamic terrorists are almost always very young males with a certain standing/class in the society. They do not have girl friends. Certainly not Asian ones. While anything is possible, the profile doesn't fit. On the other hand, for America, islamic terrorism looks like the better option for blame I guess.
We don't know it, heck, I doubt if we ever will, but this group doesn't just seem like 'libertarian nuts' to me. I wonder how many of them are armed.
Not much possibility of him being Islamic. KKK was more like his profile. Basically the "sovereign citizen" believes that the US Constitution authorized capitalist anarchism (as opposed to syndicalist anarchism). I have come to accept that governments are, and should be ... criminal gangs. The Enlightenment is dead to me. If one was a "sovereign citizen" and paranoid and armed ... one would think the government was out to get you, but then you would attack a government office. I think he was deranged, didn't know who or what his target actually was, maybe envisioned something entirely delusional, but a target he was aggrieved toward. Example, a nut case hates gays, but thinks that all Country Western fans are gay, so takes the opportunity to shoot up a Country Western concert. Something like that. We will never know what flavor of delusion he was under.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 02, 2017, 05:56:57 PM
Nutball managed to sneak 10 rifles into his room
Mowed down a bunch of people
And he hotel never checked for anything out of the ordinary
Something's wrong with the system
I think a hotel proctologist ... a house dick, should do a full body cavity search on all hotel guests ;-)
Quote from: aitm on October 02, 2017, 12:25:33 PM
Interesting. A quick snippet from the guys brother makes me wonder if that is real or not.
Somewhat off topic but related is this tidbit from an article about gunmakers in general;
Although it makes sense, I simply never thought of having a computer program searching for shooting incidents and then raising or even buying stock before humans can react. Not sure how I feel about that, but I suppose if you can make a quick 10-20 thousand or more.....
The large financial firms have software bots searching the headlines for ANYTHING that could effect the price of any stock or traded commodity. Oil? Tech stocks? Corn? Pharmaceuticals? They've got bots scouring the headlines for all that and more and then making split second trading decisions based on very sophisticated predictive analytics. Been happening for a while now.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 02, 2017, 06:17:24 PM
Do you check golf bags for rifles?
Only if the guy's score is sub-par ;-)
Quote from: Johan on October 02, 2017, 07:30:22 PM
The large financial firms have software bots searching the headlines for ANYTHING that could effect the price of any stock or traded commodity. Oil? Tech stocks? Corn? Pharmaceuticals? They've got bots scouring the headlines for all that and more and then making split second trading decisions based on very sophisticated predictive analytics. Been happening for a while now.
War is more profitable than peace. That is why ultimately capitalism is war of everyone against everyone else ;-(
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 02, 2017, 05:56:57 PM
Nutball managed to sneak 10 rifles into his room
Mowed down a bunch of people
And he hotel never checked for anything out of the ordinary
Something's wrong with the system
Something's wrong with the system? Really? So you're saying you want to be required to allow minimum wage hotel staff to search your luggage AND any bags or packages in your possession before being allowed access to a hotel room. And not just when you check in, but anytime you want to enter the room.
Quote from: Johan on October 02, 2017, 07:35:33 PM
Something's wrong with the system? Really? So you're saying you want to be required to allow minimum wage hotel staff to search your luggage AND any bags or packages in your possession before being allowed access to a hotel room. And not just when you check in, but anytime you want to enter the room.
It is the only way to be safe .. as a taxidermied specimen in a Planet of the Apes museum -)
Quote from: Johan on October 02, 2017, 07:35:33 PM
Something's wrong with the system? Really? So you're saying you want to be required to allow minimum wage hotel staff to search your luggage AND any bags or packages in your possession before being allowed access to a hotel room. And not just when you check in, but anytime you want to enter the room.
No, I want a system where there aren't States with no restrictions on magazine size, legal automatic rifles, the ability to amass an arsenal without a license. I think that would be a good start.
Quote from: Gilgamesh on October 02, 2017, 12:26:22 PM
What sort of action would you like to see take place?
Seriously considering implementing at least some of the policies of other countries that don't routinely have mass shootings would be a good start.
Sure beats doing nothing and watching it happen again and again and again.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 02, 2017, 07:46:16 PM
No, I want a system where there aren't States with no restrictions on magazine size, legal automatic rifles, the ability to amass an arsenal without a license. I think that would be a good start.
But after a good start ... Stalinism?
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 02, 2017, 09:35:34 PM
Seriously considering implementing at least some of the policies of other countries that don't routinely have mass shootings would be a good start.
Sure beats doing nothing and watching it happen again and again and again.
Americans love violence, fake movie/tv/cartoon violence isn't enough, we want the real thing. We are Romans!
Quote from: Johan on October 02, 2017, 07:30:22 PM
The large financial firms have software bots searching the headlines for ANYTHING that could effect the price of any stock or traded commodity. Oil? Tech stocks? Corn? Pharmaceuticals? They've got bots scouring the headlines for all that and more and then making split second trading decisions based on very sophisticated predictive analytics. Been happening for a while now.
I have no excuse for my naivety, it is simply something that never popped up on my radar.
QuoteWASHINGTONâ€"Expressing a sense of guarded optimism that the latest incident of gun violence that left 58 dead and 500 injured in Las Vegas would be a turning point for the nation, Americans across the country confirmed Monday they were hopeful this would be the last mass shooting before all such occurrences stopped on their own for no reason at all. “After something as horrific as what happened in Las Vegas, we’re all just hoping that now these terrible shootings will stop once and for all without circumstances changing in any way or any of us taking even the slightest amount of action in response,â€
http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-hopeful-will-be-last-mass-shooting-they--57093
Shoe, I'm glad you're OK.
Any place at all where people gather together for any reason can become a target of these kinds of murderous assholes. We can't protect everyone all the time - so what the hell do we do? Do we, as Bill O'reilly (http://www.newsweek.com/las-vegas-shooting-bill-oreilly-676176) said, just accept this danger as the price of freedom? Do we turn America into a police state? Do we try to decrease the number and lethality of weapons?
I don't know if anyone has good answers for this tragic situation - I sure as hell don't.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 03, 2017, 02:42:47 PM
Any place at all where people gather together for any reason can become a target of these kinds of murderous assholes. We can't protect everyone all the time - so what the hell do we do? Do we, as Bill O'reilly (http://www.newsweek.com/las-vegas-shooting-bill-oreilly-676176) said, just accept this danger as the price of freedom? Do we turn America into a police state? Do we try to decrease the number and lethality of weapons?
I don't know if anyone has good answers for this tragic situation - I sure as hell don't.
Why does the average person need any of the following: fully automatic weapon; magazines or clips that hold more than 10 rounds; unregistered weapon; why not licence them all? Those rules seem only sensible to me. I'm sure others could be added. And allowing any and all weapons to have silencers only makes them more dangerous. Why would the average person need a silenced weapon?
I turned 20 in an environment where getting shot at was unremarkable.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 03, 2017, 02:42:47 PM
Any place at all where people gather together for any reason can become a target of these kinds of murderous assholes. We can't protect everyone all the time - so what the hell do we do? Do we, as Bill O'reilly (http://www.newsweek.com/las-vegas-shooting-bill-oreilly-676176) said, just accept this danger as the price of freedom? Do we turn America into a police state? Do we try to decrease the number and lethality of weapons?
I don't know if anyone has good answers for this tragic situation - I sure as hell don't.
There is no safety in life ... it always ends in death. So live as best you can, while you still can. You could be dead tomorrow, but ruin what time you have thru excessive worry or rationalizing. The bullet you hear going past you ... is a bullet that missed you. People want utopia, but they only produce dystopia.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 03, 2017, 02:50:42 PM
Why does the average person need any of the following: fully automatic weapon; magazines or clips that hold more than 10 rounds; unregistered weapon; why not licence them all? Those rules seem only sensible to me. I'm sure others could be added. And allowing any and all weapons to have silencers only makes them more dangerous. Why would the average person need a silenced weapon?
I don't have any objections to the first part of what you have to say here that couldn't be overcome with well thought out legislation. Having said that let's talk about silencers.
First off the term silencer is a misnomer. They don't silence anything. The correct term is suppressor because that's what they do. They reduce the amount of noise made by a discharging firearm. Even suppressed firearms are still quite freaking loud.
Your average off the shelf legal to buy without a tax stamp AR-15 chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge is going generate somewhere between 165 and 170 db of sound when it fires. That's way above the pain threshold, and capable of causing permanent hearing damage if you are exposed to that level of noise for any sustained time interval. The only thing most civilians are likely to experience in their lives that generates the same sound level as a gun shot is a first generation airbag going off.
Suppressors work by giving the rapidly expanding gases generated by burning gun powder a place to expand into which slows them down before they exit the muzzle. They do nothing to reduce the loud crack you hear when a bullet exits the barrel at greater than the speed of sound. Most but by no means all bullets have a muzzle velocity faster than the speed of sound.
The best of the suppressors designed and marketed for the 5.56 NATO cartridge are around 1.5" in diameter and run 6" to 10" in length. They produce 30 to 35 db of total noise reduction. That means the average 5.56 AR with a suppressor is still going to generate between 130 and 140 db's of noise when it is fired. To put that in context that's louder than a rock concert (110 db) and thunder (120 db). It falls in the same range as peak stadium crowd noise (130 db), and air raid siren (135 db) and a jet engine at take off (140 db).
Sure you could build a suppressor for a bolt action 22 rimfire firing subsonic ammunition that could get the noise level down to the pfft you hear on TV or the movies, but the damn thing is going to be at least the size of a gallon milk jug. But you can't get rid of the supersonic crack from a high power rifle so there is no way to silence a supersonic round from a 5.56 without building a suppressor 500 plus yards long because that is how far the bullet travels before it drops to subsonic velocity.
Why would someone want a suppressor? Anyone who values their hearing and shoots guns should want one. Anyone that lives near a gun range is probably going to want the people shooting there to have one too. You might (or might not) be interested to learn that in countries like the UK and New Zealand, countries that have gun laws many in the US would like to model ours after, allow over the counter sales of suppressors.
Most gun crime in the US is committed with hand guns. Suppressors can make handguns quieter, but that comes at the expense of reduced concealability. That is actually a good thing as far as crime goes. They are user and observer friendly. If you are anywhere in the neighborhood you are still going to be able to hear a suppressed gunshot. Your ears just aren't going to bleed if you are close by. So let me ask you this. What the freaking hell is so terrible about suppressors that warrants making them completely illegal?
I don't see a feasible reason for someone to own more than a few weapons unlicensed. I don't see a feasible reason for people to own semi-or fully automatic weapons unlicensed. Fully automatic doesn't even make sense for a citizen. Hunting a deer does not mean mowing it down with assault fire. There's a difference between bearing arms and bearing an arsenal. And there's no reason to allow drum roll magazines for AR-15's or silencers. A silencer is made for the same reason a .38 is, not for hunting, but to kill people.
I like guns, they're fascinating and I watch a youtube channel where a guy has a .50 cal sniper rifle.
There's a reason his is licensed.
They claim they need protection from our government, or to protect their families, but I don't know what their real motivations are. I know that after these kinds of tragic mass murders the sales of guns always go way up. People manage to make good money from bad actions. I don't know why so many guns are needed by anyone, though, especially the military type of guns that are so prevalent these days. The GOP want to legalize silencers, too, but it's all insanity if you ask me.
But then, I'm a flaming liberal - so what do I know?
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 03, 2017, 05:55:56 PM
A silencer is made for the same reason a .38 is, not for hunting, but to kill people.
Bullshit.
Here is a picture of Prince William and Kate Middleton on a hunting trip.
(http://www.evilbeetgossip.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/kate_hunting.jpg)
Notice the big ass suppressed rifle their guide is holding? Here's a picture of Kate shooting the damn thing.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_02/deerhuntMS1310_468x332.jpg)
I highly fucking doubt she's about to kill someone with it.
Forget the silencer for the Ar-15, why does anyone need an Ar-15 anyways? We don't live in Somalia, we don't live in Juarez, we don't need assault-rifle styled weapons on the streets. The only legitimate argument is, "They are cool!", which fair play I agree with... but how many innocent people have to murdered just so we can keep something cool before we start to ponder the worth/cost ratio?
I see the argument about the suppressors from both sides, but I think it's the wrong argument to even worry about right now. What we need to argue about is what the fuck we are going to do about the fact that I, at 16 years old, had access to a fully automatic rifle with no license, no background check, nothing. What we need to argue about is that anyone and everyone, because of the gun lobby, has access to a tool capable of killing 10, 20, 30+ people at a time from large distances away or the ability to walk into a crowd and unload on people. And please save me, "They will just use bombs!" bullshit... you cant buy bombs (more or less) at stores, they take work, they take preparation, and they don't always work... and most importantly, the ingredients all have useful purposes. A gun, outside of hunting (which you don't need an Ar or handgun for) or if you live in Somalia, has no practical use in our society, with statistics overwhelmingly showing that gun ownership puts you at higher risk of injury than lackthereof. To deny this is as wrong as denying climate change or that the world is round and doesn't even deserve a place at the table. That argument had it's chance, now it's time for the big boys to talk reality.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 03, 2017, 06:12:46 PM
Bullshit.
Here is a picture of Prince William and Kate Middleton on a hunting trip.
(http://www.evilbeetgossip.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/kate_hunting.jpg)
Notice the big ass suppressed rifle their guide is holding? Here's a picture of Kate shooting the damn thing.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_02/deerhuntMS1310_468x332.jpg)
I highly fucking doubt she's about to kill someone with it.
I highly fucking doubt that a silencer is still needed or even should he on a hunting rifle. I used to hunt with earmuffs and a BAR. A silencer screams shifty at the very least, even with the argument that it's for health reasons why would it be unlicensed? Over the counter silencer??
Keep in mind I'm in Texas, land of bringing handguns on college campuses
Come to think of it, what's all the issue with licensing guns
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 03, 2017, 06:48:48 PM
Come to think of it, what's all the issue with licensing guns
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 03, 2017, 06:48:48 PM
Come to think of it, what's all the issue with licensing guns
Government control. In the movie "Red Dawn" the commie arrive and one of the first things they do is go for the records of gun ownership. It was sublime parody that the movie makers didn't even realize.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 03, 2017, 06:45:47 PM
I highly fucking doubt that a silencer is still needed or even should he on a hunting rifle. I used to hunt with earmuffs and a BAR. A silencer screams shifty at the very least, even with the argument that it's for health reasons why would it be unlicensed? Over the counter silencer??
Keep in mind I'm in Texas, land of bringing handguns on college campuses
35 states allow hunting with suppressors including Texas. The only reason you don't see more of it is that they are a pain in the ass to get.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/30c1ta8.png)
I don't hunt because I think killing things is barbaric, but I shoot all the time. I sometimes use a suppressed SBR for 3-gun competitions. A lot of people are moving that way even though it can take a year or more to get the tax stamps that are required. When I don't use the suppressor I wear earplugs and active headphones. When I'm doing that I have a hard time hearing the range officer. That's a safety concern. When I'm using the suppressed SBR I can get away with just the headphones. It makes it a lot easier to hear commands like cease fire.
This is kind of interesting - slow motion sound suppressors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOXunRYJIw
A controlled test of the sound suppression characteristics of several different 5.56 suppressors.
One time, for fun, I sat a FNG down in a field and fired a .50 past him. He was shaken when it sank in that the "whee" of the bullet got to him before sound of the gun.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 03, 2017, 04:57:08 PM
I don't have any objections to the first part of what you have to say here that couldn't be overcome with well thought out legislation. Having said that let's talk about silencers.
First off the term silencer is a misnomer. They don't silence anything. The correct term is suppressor because that's what they do. They reduce the amount of noise made by a discharging firearm. Even suppressed firearms are still quite freaking loud.
Your average off the shelf legal to buy without a tax stamp AR-15 chambered for the 5.56 NATO cartridge is going generate somewhere between 165 and 170 db of sound when it fires. That's way above the pain threshold, and capable of causing permanent hearing damage if you are exposed to that level of noise for any sustained time interval. The only thing most civilians are likely to experience in their lives that generates the same sound level as a gun shot is a first generation airbag going off.
Suppressors work by giving the rapidly expanding gases generated by burning gun powder a place to expand into which slows them down before they exit the muzzle. They do nothing to reduce the loud crack you hear when a bullet exits the barrel at greater than the speed of sound. Most but by no means all bullets have a muzzle velocity faster than the speed of sound.
The best of the suppressors designed and marketed for the 5.56 NATO cartridge are around 1.5" in diameter and run 6" to 10" in length. They produce 30 to 35 db of total noise reduction. That means the average 5.56 AR with a suppressor is still going to generate between 130 and 140 db's of noise when it is fired. To put that in context that's louder than a rock concert (110 db) and thunder (120 db). It falls in the same range as peak stadium crowd noise (130 db), and air raid siren (135 db) and a jet engine at take off (140 db).
Sure you could build a suppressor for a bolt action 22 rimfire firing subsonic ammunition that could get the noise level down to the pfft you hear on TV or the movies, but the damn thing is going to be at least the size of a gallon milk jug. But you can't get rid of the supersonic crack from a high power rifle so there is no way to silence a supersonic round from a 5.56 without building a suppressor 500 plus yards long because that is how far the bullet travels before it drops to subsonic velocity.
Why would someone want a suppressor? Anyone who values their hearing and shoots guns should want one. Anyone that lives near a gun range is probably going to want the people shooting there to have one too. You might (or might not) be interested to learn that in countries like the UK and New Zealand, countries that have gun laws many in the US would like to model ours after, allow over the counter sales of suppressors.
Most gun crime in the US is committed with hand guns. Suppressors can make handguns quieter, but that comes at the expense of reduced concealability. That is actually a good thing as far as crime goes. They are user and observer friendly. If you are anywhere in the neighborhood you are still going to be able to hear a suppressed gunshot. Your ears just aren't going to bleed if you are close by. So let me ask you this. What the freaking hell is so terrible about suppressors that warrants making them completely illegal?
I do like rifles. I could easily see myself firing them at a range. (Loved them in the military--shot expert with a M-13; m-16; and a .38 police special.) At that range using a suppressor makes sense. On a pistol for the average guy, (a suppressor can easily be added quickly and are easy to conceal until then.) I had not realized they were allowed for hunting in 35 states. I simply think they should be regulated in some way.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 03, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
They claim they need protection from our government, or to protect their families, but I don't know what their real motivations are. I know that after these kinds of tragic mass murders the sales of guns always go way up. People manage to make good money from bad actions. I don't know why so many guns are needed by anyone, though, especially the military type of guns that are so prevalent these days. The GOP want to legalize silencers, too, but it's all insanity if you ask me.
But then, I'm a flaming liberal - so what do I know?
Yes, every time the government acts stupid, more Republicans and gun nuts are born. Kind of like the inverse of what that angel was doing in It's A Wonderful Life.
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 03, 2017, 06:48:48 PM
Come to think of it, what's all the issue with licensing guns
When you ban the government from having guns ... I will be satisfied. Until then, not that I want to fight any government ... you can go right to King George III and tell him to kiss my colonial ass. Concord and Lexington were about gun control in general, but specifically independent colonial militia not being under lock and key of central authority (they were under local authority). Today in the National Guard, the government has what it wanted in London in 1775 ... all government guns are kept locked, except when lawfully issued, and all National Guard are federalized since the Civil Rights riot era. This is not true in Switzerland which is perhaps the only free country in Europe. Militiamen keep their government arms at home. Their government trust them, and they trust their government. That has never been true in the US. There is no reason for the government to trust the citizens, nor vice versa. 229 years of experience with the current government says ... anarchism is a viable alternative, if necessary.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 03, 2017, 02:50:42 PM
Why does the average person need any of the following: fully automatic weapon; magazines or clips that hold more than 10 rounds; unregistered weapon; why not licence them all? Those rules seem only sensible to me. I'm sure others could be added. And allowing any and all weapons to have silencers only makes them more dangerous. Why would the average person need a silenced weapon?
From what I understand full auto have been heavily regulated since 1986 and very expensive to legally own, I have also been informed no crimes have been done in the US with legally owned full auto, if this offender had an illegal full auto would any more laws have prevented this?
We had a police officer killed with a full auto AK47 recently they have never been for sale here and full auto has been illegal for over 50 years.
In Australia we can have 15 round magazines for rimfire so that's still 5 more than you propose, feral pest control does require larger magazine capacity even with our strict laws we can still have unlimited capacity in some cases.
How would Registration have made any difference with this latest shooting, he passed background checks was not known to police for anything more than traffic offence and had no mental health history, registration is something people mention to appear to be doing something yet both Canada and New Zealand have abolished gun registration in the last 30 years saying it cannot prevent or solve gun crime it's a waste of money and perhaps that money would be better spent putting more police on the street.
Our Police minister has said recently greater than 97% of all gun crime in Australia is done with unregistered firearms.
Licensing gun owners is a good idea you need to stop the mentally ill and criminals from having guns, in this latest incident it's likely the offender would have been able to get a license.
It's easier to get a sound moderator in New Zealand compared to the USA, NZ allows all the scary black semi auto rifles with sound moderators so why have they had no mass shooting since 1997?
It's considered rude to fire a gun without a sound moderator in NZ.
A crude cheap and effective sound moderator can be made from a car oil filter try youtube, why are criminals not using them?
Here is a study on sound moderators by Edith Cowan University it's worth reading.
http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1857&context=ecuworks2011
Quote from: GrinningYMIR on October 03, 2017, 05:55:56 PM
I don't see a feasible reason for someone to own more than a few weapons unlicensed. I don't see a feasible reason for people to own semi-or fully automatic weapons unlicensed. Fully automatic doesn't even make sense for a citizen. Hunting a deer does not mean mowing it down with assault fire. There's a difference between bearing arms and bearing an arsenal. And there's no reason to allow drum roll magazines for AR-15's or silencers. A silencer is made for the same reason a .38 is, not for hunting, but to kill people.
I like guns, they're fascinating and I watch a youtube channel where a guy has a .50 cal sniper rifle.
There's a reason his is licensed.
Guns are tools for some and toys for others.
A .22lr is good for small feral pests at closer range, a .223 is good for foxes rabbits and wild dogs, we need at least a .243 for feral pigs and goats in Australia and a minimum of .270 for Deer, throw in a shotgun for ducks and farmers here can have a pistol so there is 6 guns as a minimum for our range of pests.
You can only shoot one gun at a time so it really makes no difference on how many you have.
I agree with full auto not being needed, ammo costs make them very expensive to shoot. Semi auto are great for hunting it allows a follow up shot if the first one doesn't do the job.
In most places the AR15 is illegal to use for Deer hunting as the .223 is considered to small to be effective, probably best for Coyote and smaller animals.
Hiram Percy Maxim invented mufflers for cars and sound moderators for firearms, one of these is mandatory just about everywhere yet the other invention strikes fear into the bedwetting gun grabbers.
New Zealand is probably the easiest place to get a sound moderator for a scary black semi auto why are the criminals there not using them?
Please read the study in my previous post from Edith Cowan University on Sound Moderators for firearms and educate yourself.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 02, 2017, 09:56:15 AM
I want to get cynical, but it won't do much good. I definitely think twice before going to any large gatherings of people. It's not just feeling paranoid. I really don't like crowded places safe or not.
That way lies their success. When the change how we live, they win.
Quote from: baronvonrort on October 03, 2017, 11:36:41 PM
From what I understand full auto have been heavily regulated since 1986 and very expensive to legally own, I have also been informed no crimes have been done in the US with legally owned full auto, if this offender had an illegal full auto would any more laws have prevented this?
We had a police officer killed with a full auto AK47 recently they have never been for sale here and full auto has been illegal for over 50 years.
In Australia we can have 15 round magazines for rimfire so that's still 5 more than you propose, feral pest control does require larger magazine capacity even with our strict laws we can still have unlimited capacity in some cases.
How would Registration have made any difference with this latest shooting, he passed background checks was not known to police for anything more than traffic offence and had no mental health history, registration is something people mention to appear to be doing something yet both Canada and New Zealand have abolished gun registration in the last 30 years saying it cannot prevent or solve gun crime it's a waste of money and perhaps that money would be better spent putting more police on the street.
Our Police minister has said recently greater than 97% of all gun crime in Australia is done with unregistered firearms.
Licensing gun owners is a good idea you need to stop the mentally ill and criminals from having guns, in this latest incident it's likely the offender would have been able to get a license.
It's easier to get a sound moderator in New Zealand compared to the USA, NZ allows all the scary black semi auto rifles with sound moderators so why have they had no mass shooting since 1997?
It's considered rude to fire a gun without a sound moderator in NZ.
A crude cheap and effective sound moderator can be made from a car oil filter try youtube, why are criminals not using them?
Here is a study on sound moderators by Edith Cowan University it's worth reading.
http://ro.ecu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1857&context=ecuworks2011
Fully automatic weapons, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, weapons with rifled barrels with a bore greater than .50 caliber and suppressors have been heavily regulated in the US since 1934 not 1986. All they did in 1986 was close the civilian registry to newly manufactured machine guns.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 03, 2017, 08:41:34 PM
I do like rifles. I could easily see myself firing them at a range. (Loved them in the military--shot expert with a M-13; m-16; and a .38 police special.) At that range using a suppressor makes sense. On a pistol for the average guy, (a suppressor can easily be added quickly and are easy to conceal until then.) I had not realized they were allowed for hunting in 35 states. I simply think they should be regulated in some way.
It is my understanding that the regulations concerning suppressors currently being considered by congress would remove suppressors from the NFA registry and put them in the same category as other non-NFA firearms. If so you would still have to pass a background check to go to the store and buy one.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 04, 2017, 07:29:06 AM
Fully automatic weapons, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, weapons with rifled barrels with a bore greater than .50 caliber and suppressors have been heavily regulated in the US since 1934 not 1986. All they did in 1986 was close the civilian registry to newly manufactured machine guns.
There are technical ways around semi's to make them effectively full autos. A "bump stock" uses the recoil of one bullet to load the next, for example.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 07:41:11 AM
There are technical ways around semi's to make them effectively full autos. A "bump stock" uses the recoil of one bullet to load the next, for example.
It is probable the Las Vegas gunman used at least one weapon equipped with a bump stock to commit the massacre there. Some of the pictures that have been leaked show a rifle equipped with one. There may have been more than one rifle equipped with a bump stock. He may have used other devices or illegally modified ones to achieve high rates of fire. We would probably know if he had obtained fully automatic rifles via legal means by now so it is pretty safe to assume he hadn't.
The bump stocks are allowed because they don't meet the legal definition of fully automatic, but yes the damn things should probably be illegal or at the very least be controlled in the same way other automatic weapons are.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 04, 2017, 07:57:38 AM
It is probable the Las Vegas gunman used at least one weapon equipped with a bump stock to commit the massacre there. Some of the pictures that have been leaked show a rifle equipped with one. There may have been more than one rifle equipped with a bump stock. He may have used other devices or illegally modified ones to achieve high rates of fire. We would probably know if he had obtained fully automatic rifles via legal means by now so it is pretty safe to assume he hadn't.
The bump stocks are allowed because they don't meet the legal definition of fully automatic, but yes the damn things should probably be illegal or at the very least be controlled in the same way other automatic weapons are.
Thank you. Now how do you feel about very large magazine clips?
What hazards do you see with suppressors?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 04, 2017, 08:14:02 AM
What hazards do you see with suppressors?
If you mean "silencing mechanisms", yes. Mostly that it disguises where firing is coming from in crimes.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 08:45:57 AM
If you mean "silencing mechanisms", yes. Mostly that it disguises where firing is coming from in crimes.
Numbers on suppressors used in that fashion?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 04, 2017, 08:47:27 AM
Numbers on suppressors used in that fashion?
Total numbers are uncertain, as the existence of silencers on weapons used in crimes are not always specifically noted. But I can offer the following. I apologize for the length:
The study documents crimes involving silencers, both legal and illegal, including the following:
• In February 2013, Christopher Dorner targeted Southern California law enforcement officers and their families, murdering four people and wounding several others. Dorner used a silencer on his 9mm semiautomatic Glock pistol.
• In January 2016, Samy Mohamed Hamzeh was arrested and charged after acquiring automatic firearms and a silencer in furtherance of a terror plot to commit a mass shooting at a Masonic Center in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
• In October 2015, gang member Xia Lin was convicted of murdering a restaurant owner in Alhambra, California, using a handgun outfitted with a silencer.
• In March 2015, Robert Dahl fatally shot and killed Emad Tawfilis, an investor in his Napa Valley winery, using a handgun outfitted with a silencer.
• In October 2015, eight men were charged in a federal indictment in Sacramento with unlawfully engaging in the business of manufacturing and dealing in firearms, including assault rifles and silencers lacking serial numbers.
• Israel Keyes, a confessed serial killer who murdered up to 12 victims, used a gun equipped with a silencer to kill at least one of his victims in Vermont in June 2011.
In its conclusion, the report warns: “Since 1934, the strict regulations contained in the National Firearms Act have worked to limit crimes committed with silencers. Recognizing this, silencers should remain regulated under the NFA. Making these weapons available to the general public with far fewer restrictions will ensure that their use in crime will increase.â€
The full report, including gun industry catalog images of silencers and statistics on the number of registered silencers in the United States, can be found here: http://www.vpc.org/studies/silencers.pdf
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 08:01:39 AM
Thank you. Now how do you feel about very large magazine clips?
Define very large capacity. In some of the shooting sports I participate in 20 to 30 round magazines are standard capacity. My 140 mm long 9mm STI mags hold 23 rounds. Like most people in the sport I use 30 round mags for my 5.56 AR, and on those rare occasions when I have used a 308 the magazines hold 20 rounds.
I'd rather not see these types of magazines outright banned because I have legitimate uses for them that don't include mass killing. Not to mention the fact that I don't own enough limited capacity magazines to compete in a match. Given the current state of affairs though I could probably get behind some type of legislation that makes them more difficult to obtain. Background checks, maybe even licensing for people that have a verifiable reason for having them.
Judging from the photographs Las Vegas shooter had a bunch of what look like Surefire 100 round magazines. They could be 60 rounders though it's hard to tell for sure from the pictures. I've counted at least 19 of the Surefire magazines, at least one thirty round magazine and what looks like a 40 rounder of some type. If they are the 100 rounders that's almost 2000 rounds of loaded magazines, and I'm sure I haven't seen all of them that were in the hotel suite.
It wouldn't really bother me to see AR type magazines with a capacity in excess of 30 rounds banned though because their practicality in shooting sports is questionable due to their length.
If people claim the militia in the 2A don't mean militia, feed them this: https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llhb&fileName=029/llhb029.db&recNum=533
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 02, 2017, 09:56:15 AM
I want to get cynical, but it won't do much good. I definitely think twice before going to any large gatherings of people. It's not just feeling paranoid. I really don't like crowded places safe or not.
I already didn't like crowds, so the recent tragedies have no effect about where I go. But my anger about the murders is hot..
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 12:41:11 PM
I already didn't like crowds, so the recent tragedies have no effect about where I go. But my anger about the murders is hot..
I am so tired of the media echoing the 'we are mourning, we are in grief, we are deeply saddened..........................' about Las Vegas and all the other shootings. Why not have the officials of that area come out and say--Yes, we are saddened, but we are are MAD AS HELL!! Let's stop this shit!' Everybody is so busy honoring the dead and feeling grief, that in a week, all is forgotten.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 04, 2017, 02:14:01 PM
I am so tired of the media echoing the 'we are mourning, we are in grief, we are deeply saddened..........................' about Las Vegas and all the other shootings. Why not have the officials of that area come out and say--Yes, we are saddened, but we are are MAD AS HELL!! Let's stop this shit!' Everybody is so busy honoring the dead and feeling grief, that in a week, all is forgotten.
Three letters...
N R A
As I said, I always take news after tragedies of this kind with a big grain of salt. Here's one reason why:
Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/10/google-admits-citing-4chan-to-spread-fake-vegas-shooter-news/)
QuoteGoogle News took the unusual step of confirming its use of the imageboard site 4chan as a news source on Monday. The admission followed Google News' propagation of an incorrect name as a potential shooter in the tragic Las Vegas shooting on Sunday night.
Quote from: Unbeliever on October 04, 2017, 02:36:07 PM
As I said, I always take news after tragedies of this kind with a big grain of salt. Here's one reason why:
Google admits citing 4chan to spread fake Vegas shooter news (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/10/google-admits-citing-4chan-to-spread-fake-vegas-shooter-news/)
One reason I really hate the way all the news channels go straight in to 24/7 "BREAKING NEWS" coverage after every tragedy.
Before they know what has happened and endless repeat 30 second visual loops forever after or 24 h48 hours whichever comes first.
Hey folks, terrible event. Mention it 10 minutes then return to REAL news and come back to it after an hour when you have SOMETHING new to mention.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 02:57:46 PM
Hey folks, terrible event. Mention it 10 minutes then return to REAL news and come back to it after an hour when you have SOMETHING new to mention.
Yeah, when these things happen I figure to be left in the dark as far as other, real news is concerned. Like the "Friday night dump" is when sensitive stuff is released, so after tragedies like this is when things get dumped in the news, because no one is likely ever to hear about it due to the "all tragedy, all the time" nature of the news cycle - the news cycle turns into a unicycle.
The thinking is that people tune in and tune out all the time, so recapping keeps the information current.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 04, 2017, 04:01:06 PM
The thinking is that people tune in and tune out all the time, so recapping keeps the information current.
Yeah, but my default TV is MSNBC and when they stay on breaking news when there is no breaking news, all day, it drives me nuts. I get 30 seconds of Trump insulting everyone in Puerto Rico and than an hour of the same interviews and video loops from desperate people. The same loop over and over and over again...
I want to know what someone is doing to help, then what the Russians are doing and then what the Trump Administration is trying to hide. But NO, its endless video from YESTERDAY!
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 04, 2017, 11:42:38 AM
If people claim the militia in the 2A don't mean militia, feed them this: https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llhb&fileName=029/llhb029.db&recNum=533
If we go back to the original intent of the original Constitution, then we get to keep slave girls, like Jefferson kept Sally Hemmings ;-) The slave girl was his dead wife's half sister.
Nobody mentions the medical angle. Apparently the perp recently started taking anti-anxiety medication, that is known to cause violence in some patients, including suicide. So is this an example of malpractice ... or MK Ultra? The CIA could provide such depressants ... in the hope of creating just such a rampage in an impressionable individual. Should doctors go to jail, if a medication backfires?
Because this thread has lost focus and speculation is all we have at this point, I watched this video today from Alex Jones (yeah, I know) and found some interesting points to ponder.
25min to 33 min.
44min to 50 min.
and finally someone taped a bizzare acting woman at LAX days before the shooting.
53:30min to 56min.
Much of the show is worth a watch, as they speculate on whether this was an undercover op gone bad, and mention all these cameras the alleged shooter had set up or someone mimicking Dogs Lord of War, with the shooter being a profiteer being the fall guy for the terrorists.
In my mind, some of the gunfire is echo. But not all of it. Other parts of the show talk about (unconfirmed because I havent bothered to research) fuel tanks being targeted also.
I am not interested in opinions that are not based on the video, I dont care about whether you hate Jones/infowars blah blah blah. Because the Philippines is a US ally which has been struggling with islamic fundies trying to take over the country, and the USA has a history of things like Fast and Furious ops/Iran Contra [blah blah blah] countered with the speculation of money laundering through casinos [my dogs Lord of war reference], I found this video to be interesting.
youtube.com/watch?v=dALJn6z8Eac
Quote from: chill98 on October 06, 2017, 12:16:53 PM
Because this thread has lost focus and speculation is all we have at this point, I watched this video today from Alex Jones (yeah, I know) and found some interesting points to ponder.
25min to 33 min.
44min to 50 min.
and finally someone taped a bizzare acting woman at LAX days before the shooting.
53:30min to 56min.
Much of the show is worth a watch, as they speculate on whether this was an undercover op gone bad, and mention all these cameras the alleged shooter had set up or someone mimicking Dogs of War, with the shooter being a profiteer being the fall guy for the terrorists.
In my mind, some of the gunfire is echo. But not all of it. Other parts of the show talk about (unconfirmed because I havent bothered to research) fuel tanks being targeted also.
I am not interested in opinions that are not based on the video, I dont care about whether you hate Jones/infowars blah blah blah. Because the Philippines is a US ally which has been struggling with islamic fundies trying to take over the country, and the USA has a history of things like Fast and Furious ops/Iran Contra [blah blah blah] countered with the speculation of money laundering through casinos [my dogs of war reference], I found this video to be interesting.
youtube.com/watch?v=dALJn6z8Eac
And I'm not interested in anything this Jones asshole has to say.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 06, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
And I'm not interested in anything this Jones asshole has to say.
Here Let me fix your post:
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 06, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
Squawk.. Polly want a cracker... Squawk.
I am gonna guess here. I think the term "borderline personality" is intimately familiar to you.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 06, 2017, 12:21:24 PM
And I'm not interested in anything this Jones asshole has to say.
So if he said 1+1=2 ... you throw out your calculator? Why not say ... I like bigots that agree with me, but hate bigots who disagree with me. Yes, we all have opinions, but don't expect anyone to agree with you if you are rabid.
BTW - I don't trust any media personality, including Jones. I also never trust any politician or businessman.
Quote from: chill98 on October 06, 2017, 12:57:36 PM
I am gonna guess here. I think the term "borderline personality" is intimately familiar to you.
Yes, Chill, I do understand your problem. As the strawman you are on your way to Oz hoping for a brain.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 06, 2017, 01:44:47 PM
Yes, Chill, I do understand your problem. As the strawman you are on your way to Oz hoping for a brain.
Says a guy who supported Hillary? Attacked by a guy who supports Trump? Sorry, Punch & Judy ... but you aren't English, and aren't married.
Take your eyes away from the prize folks. Something else is going on with the shooting being a diversion from some dastardly deed(s)..
Nothing out of the usual. Alien landings, mermaid found in Minnesota, AI taking over Congress. Same Old Shit.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 06, 2017, 01:44:47 PM
Yes, Chill, I do understand your problem. As the strawman you are on your way to Oz hoping for a brain.
(me)
Borderline personality has a reality (and dare I say scientific) base.
(you)
the strawman and Oz are fiction.
To take the story you present to its conclusion, the strawman always had (and used) his brain.
You wouldnt even look at the video, even though I gave minute markers to the portions with actual video from the shooting taken by people with no affiliation with jones/infowars. Video someone found on Facebook posted (iirc) before the shooting of a woman who looks very similar to Danley, acting very weird and saying things along the lines "Four days America BOOM"...
EDIT to Add: Not only that, but I was respectful enough of the people who hate jones to post a non-link to the video so those who dont like Jones, dont have to see anything of his video. But you cant even be respectful enough in return to just let those who have an interest discuss, nope, you gotta blather on about your [already recognized in my op on this thread] hatred of jones. BTW, Do you want a cracker?
/edit
And in reality, it is you who refuses to use your brain to refute Jones, rather clinging to fictional characters in a lame attempt to justify your (self inflicted) ignorance. You have found your narrative and nobody is gonna make you stray from your yellow brick road.
The yellow brick road led to the bunkum that was Oz. Anti-gold-standard rhetoric from over 100 years ago. Baum was all about The Grange and Free Silver. But he is safely a children's story now, not a revolutionary overturning J P Morgan and company.
alex jones is on the far right wing fringe element. He's not aftaid to lie to get across his point. ... wouldn't want to listen to him without a whole lot of time to do some fact checking. I got more interesting things to do with my free time.
O.P. I was thinkin to go to that concert but it didnt happen this year. (I think the people of the l.a./orange metro area have done some major financing of those buildings on the strip) They were also giving out tickets on the radio shows on wed, thurs, and fri. I remember checking CNN website around 11:30pm on Sunday and there was nothing on about Las Vegas at the time; maybe just missed it.
Mandalay Bay was the most expensive casino ever built at the time it was made. $1.2 billion dollars. Its a big building. Takes 10-15 min to walk from the casino area to the desk for check-in. They have a fish tank across the walk way as big as Bass Shop but the room is so big that the tank looks small. Gold thread yellow fabric and straw colored paint in the registration area. (maybe 250ftx300ft) and the wall behind the registration desk is dark brown with pieces of wood mounted. One of the wings that is not the game room has a shopping center but I didnt see it because I had a time limit.
weapons control:
There are 3 devices which I get mixed up. flash hider, muzzle brake, suppressor. and I think you can get a combo that is a muzzle brake and suppressor in the same accessory. If I'm not mixing them up suppressors are illegal in CA. only police are allowed to use them - not that I agree with the idea of the police having better weapons than every body else ( should I say violation of the 4th ammendment concept to not trust cops more than the people?)
hmmm time to open the big can of worms. I'm hungry ;-)
I spent the last 15 years studyin the Constitution. Just a few months ago I got a copy of the federalist editorials and had to change my thinking on a few things. Related to the O.P. is the concept/doctrine of the citizen soldier; which previously I was unaware of. Before the creation of the United States every adult male was a citizen soldier of Brittain. Alexander Hamilton told the people that they would be carrying this doctrine into the U.S. via the Constitution. Knowing what a citizen soldier is and then reading the Constitution makes you realize that they did incorporate it into the U.S. This makes a huge problem for us to deal with. Congress can not write a law that violates the Constitution, and this part of the Constitution has never been ammended. By definition every adult male of the U.S. is a citizen soldier of the U.S.. If called into service a citizen soldier must report for duty with a weapon that makes him capable of fighting along side army regulars. The standard of the day for us would be an AR15 with 200rd of ammunition. Clearly the assault weapons ban is a violation of the Constitution.
If we were to add on to this the second ammendment (the Constitution was made by the leaders of the U.S. and given to the people. The Bill of Rights was created by the people and they forced the government to accept them). I havent yet found the reason it was written. Why did the people that already had a requirement to have a weapon capable of war want to have a right to possess a gun??? -million dollar question. It could be argued that the creation of the second ammendment gave protection to crazy people owning a gun.
The short story is this. No matter what the people want. No matter what Congress thinks is good for us. Our hands are tied without making Constitutional changes. Changes to the legally defined defense structure of the U.S. and changes to the second ammendment. I support making changes to the second ammendment. A good place to start would be to make it explicit my first understanding of the second ammendment. The federal government agrees with the states; as long as they have their own weapons laws in place; to not make any weapons laws. In other words the federal government stays completely out of the picture and each state decides for itself whether or not the people have a right to have weapons.
The weapons of war do not belong on the streets of our country in the hands of civilians. The weapons of war do not belong on the streets of our country in the hands of police. I got no problem with them being locked up in the local armory. Nor do I have any problem with them being out at the shooting range (maybe we should change the Constitution to say that if you want an AR15 it has to be in a locker at the shooting range when you arent there, and that your AR15 can't leave the range when you are there.) I know there are some people that would drool over shooting a cannon or a tank turret. No problem with that if you are at the army practice range, but its a big problem if you are at home
Quote from: fencerider on October 08, 2017, 02:18:37 AM
weapons control:
There are 3 devices which I get mixed up. flash hider, muzzle brake, suppressor. and I think you can get a combo that is a muzzle brake and suppressor in the same accessory. If I'm not mixing them up suppressors are illegal in CA. only police are allowed to use them - not that I agree with the idea of the police having better weapons than every body else ( should I say violation of the 4th ammendment concept to not trust cops more than the people?)
hmmm time to open the big can of worms. I'm hungry ;-)
I spent the last 15 years studyin the Constitution. Just a few months ago I got a copy of the federalist editorials and had to change my thinking on a few things. Related to the O.P. is the concept/doctrine of the citizen soldier; which previously I was unaware of. Before the creation of the United States every adult male was a citizen soldier of Brittain. Alexander Hamilton told the people that they would be carrying this doctrine into the U.S. via the Constitution. Knowing what a citizen soldier is and then reading the Constitution makes you realize that they did incorporate it into the U.S. This makes a huge problem for us to deal with. Congress can not write a law that violates the Constitution, and this part of the Constitution has never been ammended. By definition every adult male of the U.S. is a citizen soldier of the U.S.. If called into service a citizen soldier must report for duty with a weapon that makes him capable of fighting along side army regulars. The standard of the day for us would be an AR15 with 200rd of ammunition. Clearly the assault weapons ban is a violation of the Constitution.
If we were to add on to this the second ammendment (the Constitution was made by the leaders of the U.S. and given to the people. The Bill of Rights was created by the people and they forced the government to accept them). I havent yet found the reason it was written. Why did the people that already had a requirement to have a weapon capable of war want to have a right to possess a gun??? -million dollar question. It could be argued that the creation of the second ammendment gave protection to crazy people owning a gun.
The short story is this. No matter what the people want. No matter what Congress thinks is good for us. Our hands are tied without making Constitutional changes. Changes to the legally defined defense structure of the U.S. and changes to the second ammendment. I support making changes to the second ammendment. A good place to start would be to make it explicit my first understanding of the second ammendment. The federal government agrees with the states; as long as they have their own weapons laws in place; to not make any weapons laws. In other words the federal government stays completely out of the picture and each state decides for itself whether or not the people have a right to have weapons.
The weapons of war do not belong on the streets of our country in the hands of civilians. The weapons of war do not belong on the streets of our country in the hands of police. I got no problem with them being locked up in the local armory. Nor do I have any problem with them being out at the shooting range (maybe we should change the Constitution to say that if you want an AR15 it has to be in a locker at the shooting range when you arent there, and that your AR15 can't leave the range when you are there.) I know there are some people that would drool over shooting a cannon or a tank turret. No problem with that if you are at the army practice range, but its a big problem if you are at home
None of those have any use in hunting or other purposes..
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 07, 2017, 02:50:50 AM
Take your eyes away from the prize folks. Something else is going on with the shooting being a diversion from some dastardly deed(s)..
what do you have in mind? Trump's screw up in Puerto Rico? something more sinister? You could be right (kinda obvious when you watch the videos that WTC was taken down by a controlled-demolition. I counted 85 explosions that sounded like an automatic rifle on one video). But if they wanna commit such a horrendous act as Las Vegas, I don't want to know what they are covering up
Quote from: fencerider on October 08, 2017, 02:46:58 AM
what do you have in mind? Trump's screw up in Puerto Rico? something more sinister? You could be right (kinda obvious when you watch the videos that WTC was taken down by a controlled-demolition. I counted 85 explosions that sounded like an automatic rifle on one video). But if they wanna commit such a horrendous act as Las Vegas, I don't want to know what they are covering up
Conspiracy theories of the collapse of the WTC is SO OLD! It wasn't controlled demolition, planes broke the structure. Get a GRIP man...
Quote from: fencerider on October 08, 2017, 02:46:58 AM
what do you have in mind? Trump's screw up in Puerto Rico? something more sinister? You could be right (kinda obvious when you watch the videos that WTC was taken down by a controlled-demolition. I counted 85 explosions that sounded like an automatic rifle on one video). But if they wanna commit such a horrendous act as Las Vegas, I don't want to know what they are covering up
They're covering up the Toothfairy's murderous rages. Seriously, the fucker isn't getting enough teeth and he has a heavy habit.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 08, 2017, 08:13:28 AM
They're covering up the Toothfairy's murderous rages. Seriously, the fucker isn't getting enough teeth and he has a heavy habit.
A more detailed explanation than "the tooth fairy" would be helpful to the discussusion.
Quote from: fencerider on October 08, 2017, 02:18:37 AM
weapons control:
There are 3 devices which I get mixed up. flash hider, muzzle brake, suppressor.
A flash hider is designed to reduce the visible light signature of a weapon by redirecting the hot gasses as they exit the barrel giving them a chance to spread out. The primary purpose of a flash hider is to save the shooter's night vision in low light conditions.
A muzzle brake is designed to reduce recoil. It is similar to a flash hider in that it redirects the gasses as they leave the barrel, but a flash hider typically just spreads the gasses out widely a brake directs them to the rear and/or upward along a path intended to counteract a weapon's movement during recoil.
A suppressor is designed to reduce sound by slowing and containing the expanding gases as they leave the barrel. Sometimes you will find a device similar to a brake in the first part of a suppressor, but it isn't designed to reduce recoil. Just redirect the expanding gasses in a manner that makes the suppressor more efficient at reducing noise.
Quotehmmm time to open the big can of worms. I'm hungry ;-)
The US Constitution is the document that defines the structure of our government. In it the people of the United States grant limited power to the federal government to govern. The Bill of Rights exists due to a disagreement between the federalists and anti-federalists at the time the Constitution was written. The anti-federalists wanted certian rights of the people to be guaranteed in the Constitution. The federalists argued there was no need because if the power wasn't specifically spelled out in the Constitution it didn't fall under the purview of the federal government. The anti-federalists won and we got a Bill of Rights that spelled out specific rights of the people.
As far as the second amendment goes writings from the time it was written make it clear it was intended to reserve an individual right to arms.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 08, 2017, 09:54:38 AMAs far as the second amendment goes writings from the time it was written make it clear it was intended to reserve an individual right to arms.
...in order to form militias, which were crucial for the security of the nation at the time. (And also partially because of popular opposition to forming a standing army at the time)
But those were frontiersmen days. A lot has changed since then.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 08, 2017, 11:31:20 AM
...in order to form militias,
Yes, the people that wrote the constitution believed that the militia was essential. They believed that an armed population was essential to enabling a militia. But they also believed the right for citizens to be armed was independent of the militia. They believed an individual right to arms existed before our Constitution or the Bill of Rights were written and ratified by the states. They didn't believe there was anything in the 2nd amendment that eliminated that individual right.
The amicus briefs, oral arguments, majority and dissenting opinions from Heller are a good source for the arguments both for and against an individual right. If you remotely interested in why Heller was decided the way it was you should read the arguments presented in that case from both sides. Be aware though that there were 67 amicus briefs filled in the Heller case. 47 for an individual right, and 20 against.
Quote from: fencerider on October 08, 2017, 02:46:58 AM
what do you have in mind? Trump's screw up in Puerto Rico? something more sinister? You could be right (kinda obvious when you watch the videos that WTC was taken down by a controlled-demolition. I counted 85 explosions that sounded like an automatic rifle on one video). But if they wanna commit such a horrendous act as Las Vegas, I don't want to know what they are covering up
Agenda 21 ... 7 billion dead ... keep just the plutocrats, their sexy maids and sexy butlers. You can be a pool boy if you like cleaning the pool with your tongue ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 02:56:29 AM
Conspiracy theories of the collapse of the WTC is SO OLD! It wasn't controlled demolition, planes broke the structure. Get a GRIP man...
I have read that ... the buildings weren't up to code. Corruption in the Big Apple. But building 7 was controlled ... they had to hide the Enron documents.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 08, 2017, 01:07:29 PM
Yes, the people that wrote the constitution believed that the militia was essential. They believed that an armed population was essential to enabling a militia. But they also believed the right for citizens to be armed was independent of the militia. They believed an individual right to arms existed before our Constitution or the Bill of Rights were written and ratified by the states. They didn't believe there was anything in the 2nd amendment that eliminated that individual right.
The amicus briefs, oral arguments, majority and dissenting opinions from Heller are a good source for the arguments both for and against an individual right. If you remotely interested in why Heller was decided the way it was you should read the arguments presented in that case from both sides. Be aware though that there were 67 amicus briefs filled in the Heller case. 47 for an individual right, and 20 against.
Not all militias were to be under a state governor ... if hindsight is employed regarding the American Revolution ... otherwise we should have just obeyed our colonial governors. But the Federalists thought of a stronger central government, and the anti-Federalists were against that. The Constitution of 1787 was a coup against the Articles of Confederation. Nothing since 1775 was legally legitimate ... we were and remain rebels against the English monarchy, with no rights (except by the power of organized violence). Not everyone was happy with the coup of 1787, anymore than they were all for the rebellion of 1775. This simmered a long time until 1860, with near secession first by New England ... later actual secession by the South. The British Empire nearly intervened. Most conflict and tragedy are cause by overly ambitious men, more than actual grievances ... grievances are just causus belli .. like the Declaration itself. The Declaration isn't US law in any case. The Constitution's "flaws" were partly corrected during/post Civil War ... from the Federalist perspective. Even Andrew Jackson, Sam Houston, William Sherman were Federalist. Of course there were, and remain, people against that result. History doesn't have convenient bookends.
Quote from: fencerider on October 08, 2017, 02:18:37 AM
weapons control:
The weapons of war do not belong on the streets of our country in the hands of civilians. The weapons of war do not belong on the streets of our country in the hands of police.
The Remington 700 is used by your military and police, are you saying bolt action rifles like the Remington 700 shouldn't be owned by civilians?
Quote from: baronvonrort on October 08, 2017, 07:36:24 PM
The Remington 700 is used by your military and police, are you saying bolt action rifles like the Remington 700 shouldn't be owned by civilians?
Not if they are black. Too fucking scary looking...
2nd amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"A well regulated militia" refers to the State and National armed forces. "State" meant "Nation" at the time. We didn't have a standing army back then; now we do. Military-style weapons owned by private citizens have no place in a modern democratic society.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 09:51:56 PM
Military-style weapons owned by private citizens have no place in a modern democratic society.
The Remington 700 is a military weapon why do you think they have no place in a modern democratic society?
The 1911 is another military weapon why does nobody say they have no place in society?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 09:34:09 AM
A more detailed explanation than "the tooth fairy" would be helpful to the discussusion.
You're quite right, it would be.
Quote from: baronvonrort on October 08, 2017, 09:58:30 PM
The Remington 700 is a military weapon why do you think they have no place in a modern democratic society?
The 1911 is another military weapon why does nobody say they have no place in society?
I can barely tell the difference between a 1920s Tommy gun and an AK-47. And don't care. The only legitimate purpose of a weapon is for hunting (which I support) and if you can't kill the prey with a single shot shotgun or rifle, you have no business trying it.
Every year before deer season, Dad brought us out to some forsaken field with a huge hill of dirt. If we couldn't hit a paper plate from 50 yards, we couldn't hunt. And he tested all out shotguns rested on sandbags to make sure they shot accurately before he tested us.
Seems responsible to me. Unfortunately, we can't keep guns, or a spork, out of the hands of nut-jobs, because they have ... rights. But to solve the nut-job problem, we have to go further into totalitarianism ... which gives legitimate fear to legitimate citizens. I know ... America ... love it or leave it ... here is a spork, go kill yourself?
Quote from: Baruch on October 08, 2017, 10:37:41 PM
Seems responsible to me. Unfortunately, we can't keep guns, or a spork, out of the hands of nut-jobs, because they have ... rights. But to solve the nut-job problem, we have to go further into totalitarianism ... which gives legitimate fear to legitimate citizens. I know ... America ... love it or leave it ... here is a spork, go kill yourself?
First, I'm not "America Love It or Leave It". Like Trump, you love to make vague allegations.
Second, there is a difference between an AK -47 and a spork. I don't recall anyone being killed with a spork lately. OK, maybe a self-inflicted infected gum wound...
Third, if nuts can't buy military-style weapons, they won't kill 50 people with them will they? When is the last time someone needed an AK-47 in self defense?
(just my luck there will be an example)
"OK, maybe a self-inflicted infected gum wound..." .. a like for that, but this way, since you don't like "likes".
Just discussing ... probing, to better understand you. I am glad you aren't a gun nut, we have too many of those. If you were a gun nut, and given your age, I could see you attaching rocket launchers to your wheelchair ;-)
Quote from: baronvonrort on October 08, 2017, 09:58:30 PM
The Remington 700 is a military weapon why do you think they have no place in a modern democratic society?
The 1911 is another military weapon why does nobody say they have no place in society?
You just don't listen, that's why you ask pointless and absurd questions.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2017, 10:48:00 AM
You just don't listen, that's why you ask pointless and absurd questions.
What is to listen to? That only anti-Fa D-party paramilitaries should have guns? (not necessarily your personal position).
Quote from: baronvonrort on October 08, 2017, 09:58:30 PM
The Remington 700 is a military weapon why do you think they have no place in a modern democratic society?
The 1911 is another military weapon why does nobody say they have no place in society?
Hi, "Anti-Gunner" here, I don't think the 1911 has a place in society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ECYMvjU52E
Quote from: Shiranu on October 09, 2017, 01:27:50 PM
Hi, "Anti-Gunner" here, I don't think the 1911 has a place in society.
Really? If a maniac from the Society of the Boxer decided to wrap himself in yards of wet silk what would you use to stop him? .38s are ineffectual.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 09, 2017, 02:01:48 PM
Really? If a maniac from the Society of the Boxer decided to wrap himself in yards of wet silk what would you use to stop him? .38s are ineffectual.
Yes, the Boxer Rebellion, where the European powers, America, and Japan were all on the same evil side. Screwing over China. The .45 pistol was invented to stop Moro warriors on Mindanao ... our first Muslim vs American war of the 20th century. Back then, we water-boarded prisoners just like we do today.
It's not just Conservatives its Libertarians as well.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on October 10, 2017, 03:47:06 AM
It's not just Conservatives its Libertarians as well.
Libertarians are paleo-Conservatives, not neo-Conservatives. Almost had respect for Ron Paul, but he was a fake. I laughed my head off when Bork was cornered during confirmation, about "original intent". My god! What an idiot to admit to that ideology. Usually a nominee is opaque, and then screws America after they put on the SCOTUS robe ... like Scalia.
I would lean toward Centrist Libertarian ... but the nut jobs have spoiled every label. Some people are only fit for a one way time travel trip into the Soviet Union's glory days. Right-wing or Left-wing, a slave is still a slave. Some people think they can profit by being a slave or a slave master ... they are both wrong.
Quote from: Baruch on October 10, 2017, 05:09:07 AM
Libertarians are paleo-Conservatives, not neo-Conservatives. Almost had respect for Ron Paul, but he was a fake. I laughed my head off when Bork was cornered during confirmation, about "original intent". My god! What an idiot to admit to that ideology. Usually a nominee is opaque, and then screws America after they put on the SCOTUS robe ... like Scalia.
I would lean toward Centrist Libertarian ... but the nut jobs have spoiled every label. Some people are only fit for a one way time travel trip into the Soviet Union's glory days. Right-wing or Left-wing, a slave is still a slave. Some people think they can profit by being a slave or a slave master ... they are both wrong.
Ok, tell us what a Centrist-Libertarian thinks. And how that matches your theologic views.
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22365692_1445953865500798_5791805648380710168_n.jpg?oh=9472addecc9094e453b225bb62c9ef31&oe=5A4015AB)
That puts a lot into perspective. Thank you.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 11, 2017, 02:38:29 AM
(https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22365692_1445953865500798_5791805648380710168_n.jpg?oh=9472addecc9094e453b225bb62c9ef31&oe=5A4015AB)
Yes, the government response has been wrong, every single time. Not a conspiracy, just stupid politicians. Put a spork in that and call it done .. until the government bans sporks.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 01:15:22 AM
Ok, tell us what a Centrist-Libertarian thinks. And how that matches your theologic views.
1. Nothing in excess (R or D are extremist)
2. Choose freedom over government bureaucracy (yes, we both have served in the belly of the beast, but were you the appendix or the colon?)
What does any of that have to do with theology? My ability to move my hand, which a rock can't do ... is free will. But not just do anything, we are called to responsibility. So are extremists responsible? Didn't think so. Are socialists wanting the people to be anything more than obedient rocks? Didn't think so.
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 07:27:08 AM
1. Nothing in excess (R or D are extremist)
2. Choose freedom over government bureaucracy (yes, we both have served in the belly of the beast, but were you the appendix or the colon?)
What does any of that have to do with theology? My ability to move my hand, which a rock can't do ... is free will. But not just do anything, we are called to responsibility. So are extremists responsible? Didn't think so. Are socialists wanting the people to be anything more than obedient rocks? Didn't think so.
You are equating Libertarianism with Centrism. That is inaccurate. Libertaritarian is more a point on a triangle with Libetaa and Conservative, not Republican or Democrat.
Forive my typin, I lost my set of reading glsses and am using old ones.I can see the monitor barely. and some letters look a lot like others.
Get some cheap readers from the drug store or Wal-merde. I have set all over the house.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 11:46:47 AM
Get some cheap readers from the drug store or Wal-merde. I have set all over the house.
Found them in the kitchen. But the old ones were nearly as good as the newer ones. Just needed to lean in 6" closer.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 01:32:04 PM
Found them in the kitchen. But the old ones were nearly as good as the newer ones. Just needed to lean in 6" closer.
Get some lanyards.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 01:37:29 PM
Get some lanyards.
I'm not quite a geezer yet. Getting there, but not Um, what were we discussing? How's the kids. Are there waffles?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 01:53:00 PM
I'm not quite a geezer yet. Getting there, but not Um, what were we discussing? How's the kids. Are there waffles?
I worry about ALZ.
My parents both had it.
And so did my mother.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 02:02:55 PM
I worry about ALZ.
My parents both had it.
And so did my mother.
And your father?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 02:35:33 PM
And your father?
Wouldn't care if he did. He was the Y-donor, nothing more.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 03:09:47 PM
Wouldn't care if he did. He was the Y-donor, nothing more.
OK, you have me confused. And no disrespect. But when you said your "parents both had it" and "so did my mother" , I thought you making some joke. I don't understand the genetics, but I did not mean to offend and I apologize.
If it is not too awkward, could you explain? I hope I'm not the only person who doesn't quite get what you are refferring to.
Oh wait, I think I got it. I'm dense sometimes.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 03:09:47 PM
Wouldn't care if he did. He was the Y-donor, nothing more.
Health history is the one place you should care about the Y-donor.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 03:20:45 PM
OK, you have me confused. And no disrespect. But when you said your "parents both had it" and "so did my mother" , I thought you making some joke. I don't understand the genetics, but I did not mean to offend and I apologize.
If it is not too awkward, could you explain? I hope I'm not the only person who doesn't quite get what you are refferring to.
Oh wait, I think I got it. I'm dense sometimes.
That part was the joke, it makes doctors laugh. However, my male parent never earned the title "father". I told people I came from a one-parent home all my life. He lived there with my mother until he died of stupidity at age 64. So I call him "the Y-donor", because he had no other positive involvement with me. Negative involvement is another story.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on October 11, 2017, 03:24:22 PM
Health history is the one place you should care about the Y-donor.
Oh, I know he had prostate cancer, heart problems, diabetes, ALZ, and some other shit.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 03:25:24 PM
That part was the joke, it makes doctors laugh. However, my male parent never earned the title "father". I told people I came from a one-parent home all my life. He lived there with my mother until he died of stupidity at age 64. So I call him "the Y-donor", because he had no other positive involvement with me. Negative involvement is another story.
Figures, I DIDN'T understand. I was thinking surrogate mother. But "not good" dad, I get that too. I probably should just shut up and not post sometimes...
*sigh*
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 03:34:14 PM
Figures, I DIDN'T understand. I was thinking surrogate mother. But "not good" dad, I get that too. I probably should just shut up and not post sometimes...
*sigh*
No biggie. He was an non-entity to me when I was seven. After he threw me into a lake and drove off.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 03:42:45 PM
No biggie. He was an non-entity to me when I was seven. After he threw me into a lake and drove off.
Hard way to learn to swim. I suppose you remember the song "A Boy Named Sue"?
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 03:53:31 PM
Hard way to learn to swim. I suppose you remember the song "A Boy Named Sue"?
I had learned to swim the previous summer, not that he would have known. And there was a guy in a boat tied up to the bridge where we stopped, I paddled over to him.
Nobody believe my version of the story. He didn't bother telling one.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 04:01:54 PM
I had learned to swim the previous summer, not that he would have known. And there was a guy in a boat tied up to the bridge where we stopped, I paddled over to him.
Nobody believe my version of the story. He didn't bother telling one.
I'll trust a story until proven otherwise.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 04:22:25 PM
I'll trust a story until proven otherwise.
The cops never looked into it, nor did Mom.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 11, 2017, 04:40:14 PM
The cops never looked into it, nor did Mom.
As Alan Alda never said, don't ask a friend where the dog is buried.
PP - GS and CB are best buds now. CB got all pissed when I cheated on him with Rick (but not with Morty).
Found this video from someone at Vegas, away from the music festival. She is very articulate, you feel her emotions as she describes fleeing gunfire. Yesterday, when I viewed this, it had like 750 hits. 34K today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXBfCIukLmA
Near the last 1/4 of the video she goes through transcripts of police scanner which is very interesting on its own.
from the comments section of the video above is a link to this place:
http://blackeyenews.com/?p=581
Now I am not giving much credence to the blackeyenews site itself and have not taken the time to verify but look to the 4chan screen shot. Quote above screenshot:
Updated oct 4 - 3:45pm Pacific: Just another tidbit. Either Paddock is a 4chan users and told warned everyone three weeks prior, or some other government employee grew a conscience before it happened.
Quote from: chill98 on October 17, 2017, 03:06:30 PMNow I am not giving much credence to the blackeyenews site itself and have not taken the time to verify but look to the 4chan screen shot.
lol, probably a good idea. Displayed prominently on the site: "Federal Reserve | Conspiracy | Illuminati | Bilderberg | Bohemian Grove | World War 3 | 9/11 | Inside Job | New World Order" They allege that the Las Vegas attack was a false flag carried out by paid actors, for example.
You'd probably come across as more credible if you just stuck to Alex "frogman" Jones.
Ah, but key witnesses ... have either disappeared or died already. CIA on the job. The hotel guard who was shot by the shooter ... disappeared.
There is no conspiracy to cover up either, nor where any government officials involved with a gun runner for the CIA (the shooter). Nixon was innocent, so was LBJ.
Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 08:44:56 PM
PP - GS and CB are best buds now. CB got all pissed when I cheated on him with Rick (but not with Morty).
Neither of you make sense most times, but sometimes GS makes more sense than you do. And that is a low bar with you.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 17, 2017, 03:55:02 PM
lol, probably a good idea. Displayed prominently on the site: "Federal Reserve | Conspiracy | Illuminati | Bilderberg | Bohemian Grove | World War 3 | 9/11 | Inside Job | New World Order" They allege that the Las Vegas attack was a false flag carried out by paid actors, for example.
You'd probably come across as more credible if you just stuck to Alex "frogman" Jones.
ya know, I just don't understand why the modus operandi around here is to repeat what is already said. As I said in the very post you are responding to :
Quote from: chill98
Now I am not giving much credence to the blackeyenews site itself...
What is very telling though is how it is then turned into a logical fallacy:
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is where an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
I clearly was directing the reader to a 4 chan screenshot. Which you did not address, choosing to focus on something I already pointed out and throwing in a comment about my personal credibility.
Now do you have something to add to the actual content in question? Could this be the shooter himself? Is 4chan notorious for so many posts like this that one is bound to happen just on chance alone? Being as I am very unfamiliar with 4chan, do you have the skill (or time) to find the actual post to verify it is real?
If not, how about just posting you beeleeves the shooter had no ties to anything nefarious and just went off on this murderous rampage cuz he suddenly became mentally ill...
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 10:57:34 AM
ya know, I just don't understand why the modus operandi around here is to repeat what is already said. As I said in the very post you are responding to :
What is very telling though is how it is then turned into a logical fallacy:
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is where an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
I clearly was directing the reader to a 4 chan screenshot. Which you did not address, choosing to focus on something I already pointed out and throwing in a comment about my personal credibility.
Now do you have something to add to the actual content in question? Could this be the shooter himself? Is 4chan notorious for so many posts like this that one is bound to happen just on chance alone? Being as I am very unfamiliar with 4chan, do you have the skill (or time) to find the actual post to verify it is real?
If not, how about just posting you beeleeves the shooter had no ties to anything nefarious and just went off on this murderous rampage cuz he suddenly became mentally ill...
Nonfactual conspiracy theories abound among fools. And they are never right. They mostly show factual ignorance.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 11:33:49 AM
Nonfactual conspiracy theories abound among fools. And they are never right. They mostly show factual ignorance.
http://www.businessinsider.com/5-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true-2015-6
and I will add one more with the buzzword
Yellowcake
Point being...
You're wrong.
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 11:54:56 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/5-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true-2015-6
and I will add one more with the buzzword
Yellowcake
Point being...
You're wrong.
It is usually a good idea to specify the object of a post. Otherwise, there can be confusion.
Conflating conspiracies and conspiracy theories is a desperate attempt at credibility that never works.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 12:14:34 PM
It is usually a good idea to specify the object of a post. Otherwise, there can be confusion.
You are/were confused? Must be that tool thing biting you in the ass.
Quote from: chill98 on October 18, 2017, 12:28:06 PM
You are/were confused? Must be that tool thing biting you in the ass.
Well I checked my ass and the local tools. They decided it was an uncertain pronoun. The vote was 3 to 1. Well what does my ass know?
The missing shot guard has been found! He was kidnapped by Ellen! This gets more and more strange, must involve "bath salts" or strange pizza parlors.
Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 07:21:41 PM
The missing shot guard has been found! He was kidnapped by Ellen! This gets more and more strange, must involve "bath salts" or strange pizza parlors.
As I use neither, your post is about standard unsensible...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 23, 2017, 04:17:31 AM
As I use neither, your post is about standard unsensible...
Just picnic baskets.