I have been searching for the truth all my life. I started out life believing in what the church taught me. As I aged, I became wiser. I have reached a stage in my life when I find myself intolerant of dumbness and evasiveness and of course, I am impatient with the religious because they score high on both dumbness and evasiveness. I have gone along with and tolerated the imbeciles in church all my life. I particularly dislike the old women who love to pat me on my head and say that God will bless me for serving as an altar boy and they actually believe it. Don't they realise I'm old enough to father their granddaughter's children?
By mid December, I will reach a new milestone in my life. I'll hit the age of majority in Scotland although less enlightened countries such as England, Wales, and the US recognise an older age. Where shall I stand vis-a-vis religion?
That religion or theism is dumb is indisputable. I have challenged theists in Christian Forums and here to state their case but they have all failed miserably. I'm satisfied in my mind that theism is about the dumbest thing anyone can believe in. But my entire culture is built around the nonsense of theism.
I have to give a name for myself. To identify myself as a theist would be unbearably humiliating. Come on, I'm too intelligent to believe in theism. But Christianity is theistic. I have long called myself an Honest Christian. An Honest Christian is one who KNOWS that his culture / religion is old and contains fables and legends which are of course unreal. God and his merry angels are nonsense.
But when people hear that I'm an Honest Christian, they will still think I believe in all or some of the supernatural claptrap. 'Cultural Christian' sounds a little weak. I need something more than that.
After thinking long and hard, I have decided that come my birthday, I will openly declare that I am now a 'Cultural Christian and an Intellectual Atheist'. I am a Christian by my culture but an atheist intellectually. My head is entirely atheistic but my heart and other wimpish parts of my body go along with the religion. When asked, 'St Truth, do you believe in God?' my reply will be, 'Am I a nincompoop? Assuredly not! Any sane person must know that it (or whatever pronoun you choose to use to refer to that non-existent non-being' does not exist.
I'm sick and tired of the theist's evasiveness, prevarication and ambiguity. They have been given too much respect when none is due to the disseminator of nonsense. If the purveyor of falsehood (ie theist) wants to cross swords with St Truth, he should do it in clear terms or forever hang his head down in shame. The Bible tells us that there was a time when lepers were compelled to cover their upper lip and shout 'UNCLEAN' when they see other people. Perhaps it is appropriate for a theist to cover his upper lip and shout 'IMBECILE'!
The world extends too much courtesy to theists and this must stop. Irrational people must be told they are irrational. In most forums, I have noticed that these irrational folks are given special courtesy because we have all been brought up not to tell a theist that his belief is garbage. It's considered rude. But it's not thought of as rude for dumb theists to run down atheism. This imbalance of giving the licence to be rude to a bunch of idiots and intelligent atheists have to bear the brunt of their rudeness must be addressed and corrected. I believe theists should have the freedom to believe in nonsense if they want to. It's a free world. But there should be a law that requires them to at least confess that their belief is irrational and foolish.
It's particularly tough on me because I am not just a communicant Christian but an altar boy too. It's a pity I can't wear a sign on my cassock that says 'I don't believe in supernatural nonsense'.
These are hard truths that the world must acknowledge. We must forget courtesy for once and state the truth firmly and unflinchingly. I do it always for I am...
St Truth
Quite possible that this intention won't create a stir in your present choice of church. Watching a young person grow into an adult is ... wonderful.
I tell people I am an, existentialistic atheistical skeptic....kinda glazes over their eyes and they wander away..
I avoid the subject of religion altogether with people in meat-space. It's nobody's business what I do or don't believe, and I never ask them what they do or don't believe, because as long as they aren't doing evil stuff they can have their beliefs.
St. Truth, I feel I should warn you about discussing your views on religion with others - it may become dangerous for your health. Even if it's not detrimental to your physical safety, in could lead to you being ostracized by your community, or some such.
Only you can choose how much of your views to share, though, so good luck with it.
Quote from: Baruch on September 29, 2017, 01:26:56 PM
Quite possible that this intention won't create a stir in your present choice of church. Watching a young person grow into an adult is ... wonderful.
'Adult' is an arbitrary term. The only difference between a full-grown adult and me is the physical aspect. I'm still growing and so my appearance is lanky whereas the typical adult (especially the older variety) looks like a captive balloon about to take off. But as far as the mind goes, what I am at 15 is no different from what I will be at 50.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 29, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
St. Truth, I feel I should warn you about discussing your views on religion with others - it may become dangerous for your health. Even if it's not detrimental to your physical safety, in could lead to you being ostracized by your community, or some such.
Only you can choose how much of your views to share, though, so good luck with it.
Thanks but what you say is only relevant if I lived in America. America is a strange country. The brightest people live next to the dumb fools. The greatest astrophysicists are Americans and the most loony God-believers are also Americans. Dawkins says you can't get voted if you're an atheist in America. You've got to be as stupid as Trump.
But in my country, it's ok to be an atheists. In the US, presidents have to pretend to pray and go to church even if they are atheists. In the UK, if you pray, people will think you're mad. I read an article about Tony Blair, a former PM. When he met a loony US President, they prayed together. The loony US President of course publicised it because it would gain him brownie points as a praying President in loony America. But when the British press asked Blair if he really prayed with the President, Blair denied it. That's because the wise British public would think you're a nutter if you prayed as a PM. We are different. We do a lot of things in Church. Even our monarch is crowned in Westminster Abbey and vows to uphold the Church of England as its secular head. But it's a disgrace for the PM if he really prays as opposed to doing ceremonial prayers.
As an altar boy, I am very much into anything ceremonial and ritualistic. But you'd be mad to think that I pray when I'm not doing my altar duties in church. Even during prayers, my head is bowed and my hands clasped as is required of an acolyte but my mind is on other things.
I openly tell everyone about my beliefs. It's OK in sane UK but in the US the loonies will ostracise you, as you rightly pointed out. Not so in the UK or anywhere in Europe. In fact if you REALLY believe sky daddy exists, people are a little suspicious of you. They may doubt your stability and sanity. I certainly do.
"but my mind is on other things." ... teenagers usually do. And are certain of what they think is what and who is who ;-)
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 08:34:44 PM
'Adult' is an arbitrary term. The only difference between a full-grown adult and me is the physical aspect. I'm still growing and so my appearance is lanky whereas the typical adult (especially the older variety) looks like a captive balloon about to take off. But as far as the mind goes, what I am at 15 is no different from what I will be at 50.
Really? I somehow don't think you really mean that. Are you suggesting that the mind you have now will crystallize and stay the same? You will have no new thoughts in 35 years? No new emotions? You have seen all and done all in your 15 yrs? Do you think the world will stay as it is now? Do you think the world of 2050 will be as it is now?
One lesson I'm always learning--never say 'never', 'ever' or 'always'. You just never know what the world is going to visit your life with; or whom.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 29, 2017, 09:02:39 PM
Really? I somehow don't think you really mean that. Are you suggesting that the mind you have now will crystallize and stay the same? You will have no new thoughts in 35 years? No new emotions? You have seen all and done all in your 15 yrs? Do you think the world will stay as it is now? Do you think the world of 2050 will be as it is now?
One lesson I'm always learning--never say 'never', 'ever' or 'always'. You just never know what the world is going to visit your life with; or whom.
Of course I will have new input from external stimuli. But what I mean is my brain has reached its full potential. I don't think a 50-year-old is more logical than a 15-year-old. I mean if the theists here (or worse, in CF) are anything to go by and I'm assuming they're all older than me, I think I have done very well.
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 11:03:52 PM
Of course I will have new input from external stimuli. But what I mean is my brain has reached its full potential. I don't think a 50-year-old is more logical than a 15-year-old. I mean if the theists here (or worse, in CF) are anything to go by and I'm assuming they're all older than me, I think I have done very well.
Done very well??? Don't be so modest. You have done much better than 'very well'! I was not saying that your brain will grow in size or weight; yes, it's fully grown. That is not what I was referring to--at least, I wasn't trying to refer to that. But you will have double the experiences by 50 than you have had so far. You will have learned more; experienced more. Because of that you will have new knowledge and new emotional experiences--some of which you have not had yet. Will all than not produce new or different linkages within your brain? At the very least you will be more nuanced in your world view than you are now. You will change and change in ways you cannot anticipate. This is not a bad thing or odd thing--it is a human thing.
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 01:23:44 PMIrrational people must be told they are irrational. In most forums, I have noticed that these irrational folks are given special courtesy because we have all been brought up not to tell a theist that his belief is garbage. It's considered rude.
I agree. And these same points were also brought up by Sam Harris in his idea of "conversational intolerance" and Daniel Dennett in his book Breaking The Spell. I strongly recommend reading what they had to say on this topic if you're so inclined.
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 29, 2017, 11:14:25 PM
Done very well??? Don't be so modest. You have done much better than 'very well'! I was not saying that your brain will grow in size or weight; yes, it's fully grown. That is not what I was referring to--at least, I wasn't trying to refer to that. But you will have double the experiences by 50 than you have had so far. You will have learned more; experienced more. Because of that you will have new knowledge and new emotional experiences--some of which you have not had yet. Will all than not produce new or different linkages within your brain? At the very least you will be more nuanced in your world view than you are now. You will change and change in ways you cannot anticipate. This is not a bad thing or odd thing--it is a human thing.
Thanks. You are very kind. I'm not sure what experiences will do to aid my thinking. But one thing is sure. I will have read many more books by the time I'm 50. Reading really helps a lot. I was warned off Dawkins' God Delusion when I was a little 5-year-old altar boy. At that time, I had no desire to read a book of that genre. I was still reading children's books. But I first read the book when I was 8 and it changed my world quite a bit. It made me realise that I had ALWAYS supposed God's existence as a default and it was so wrong. The other really good author in my formative was Bart Ehrman. He's a brilliant Bible scholar and an honest one.
I must have seen hundreds of debates between atheists and theists. The only times when a theist appears to have won is when trickery is employed. I soon learnt all the tricks of the religious mind. So now, when a theist employs one of his many tricks, I'm on my guard and I can expose his dishonesty. William Lane Craig is the world's most dishonest debater. I can refute every single one of his arguments without much effort.
But you can't blame a theist. When you want to accept a belief system that only morons can accept, your ego is sure to take a beating. Like a drowning man, a theist has to clutch at straws. The tricks of theism help somewhat especially when a theist is arguing with a kindhearted unsuspecting atheist.
I consider it my duty to expose all the lies and errors of theism. Theists are fervent in their insanity and they can selflessly spread their lies to as many people as they can. Lies and errors belong to the dark force and must be countered by truth and light which is what I hope to spread as....
St Truth
Not all atheists aren anti-theists. If you are an anti-theist, expect to have few friends ;-( I know it is hard to be tolerant of other human beings, nor not be self-hating (you seem to have reacted with a superiority complex instead of an inferiority complex). Being anti-X usually is a symptom of a larger problem, being anti-social. I hope you are able to have friends, though I would agree with some here, it is best to keep your anti-theism to yourself when around them.
Quote from: St Truth on September 30, 2017, 10:44:07 AM
Thanks. You are very kind. I'm not sure what experiences will do to aid my thinking. But one thing is sure. I will have read many more books by the time I'm 50. Reading really helps a lot. I was warned off Dawkins' God Delusion when I was a little 5-year-old altar boy. At that time, I had no desire to read a book of that genre. I was still reading children's books. But I first read the book when I was 8 and it changed my world quite a bit. It made me realise that I had ALWAYS supposed God's existence as a default and it was so wrong. The other really good author in my formative was Bart Ehrman. He's a brilliant Bible scholar and an honest one.
I must have seen hundreds of debates between atheists and theists. The only times when a theist appears to have won is when trickery is employed. I soon learnt all the tricks of the religious mind. So now, when a theist employs one of his many tricks, I'm on my guard and I can expose his dishonesty. William Lane Craig is the world's most dishonest debater. I can refute every single one of his arguments without much effort.
But you can't blame a theist. When you want to accept a belief system that only morons can accept, your ego is sure to take a beating. Like a drowning man, a theist has to clutch at straws. The tricks of theism help somewhat especially when a theist is arguing with a kindhearted unsuspecting atheist.
I consider it my duty to expose all the lies and errors of theism. Theists are fervent in their insanity and they can selflessly spread their lies to as many people as they can. Lies and errors belong to the dark force and must be countered by truth and light which is what I hope to spread as....
St Truth
I wish you luck and success in your quest. I oppose organized religion much more than individual theists. The hierarchy of any religion is where the evil comes from, for the most part.
Quote from: Baruch on September 30, 2017, 11:08:58 AM
Not all atheists aren anti-theists. If you are an anti-theist, expect to have few friends ;-( I know it is hard to be tolerant of other human beings, nor not be self-hating (you seem to have reacted with a superiority complex instead of an inferiority complex). Being anti-X usually is a symptom of a larger problem, being anti-social. I hope you are able to have friends, though I would agree with some here, it is best to keep your anti-theism to yourself when around them.
I am an altar boy and I work closely with priests. I am only anti-theist on the Internet because on the Internet, theists become bold and make claims that they know they can't justify. In real life, theists usually don't want to talk to atheists or they don't want to hear anything against theism so they don't provoke me to be anti-theistic. I don't bash village idiots. But on the Internet, village idiots somehow become bold. They make outrageous claims and they taunt atheists. That's when the justice in me becomes intolerant of such a gross injustice. Village idiots are lovely people. But the moment they taunt geniuses, that's when I will have to put the village idiot in his place.
But mostly, theists are innocuous people. They know their limits (both mental and intellectual) but it's on the Internet that they overstep the boundary.
I'm not even an atheist but I am intelligent enough to know that atheism is right. Atheists are very tolerant of theists and it's clear on an atheist forum such as this one. The reason why atheists are nicer people than theists is obvious. CF is vicious against atheists because CF is full of morons. They view even a single atheist as a threat against their loony belief in God. But atheists don't have to be firm against theists (even the more loony ones) because atheists are dealing with theists from a position of incredible mental and logical strength. Theists are a laughable bunch as far as the atheists are concerned. There's no threat of theists peddling their flawed beliefs to atheists.
But I still get irritated by theists sometimes when I'm just amazed how wrong they can be and how unable they are in addressing their minds to the correct issues. It's easy to show theists they are wrong. It's like showing a mentally subnormal person he is wrong. The only problem is getting the theist or the mentally subnormal to UNDERSTAND what we are saying. Often, they just don't get it. It's the same on CF. Theists are definitely on the average mentally slow. This is in fact a statistical fact.
This is why nothing will induce me to go back to CF under a different identity. It's no fun going to a forum that is full of dumb fools. I used to think theists were dishonest but now I know it's nothing to do with honesty. They're just stupid. Of course there are exceptions but even then, the intelligent theist becomes automatically strangely stupid when he addresses his mind to religion. Francis Collins is a good example. In his book 'The Language of God' the first half deals with the truth of evolution from the standpoint of a geneticist. You can't read it without accepting the truth of evolution. The second half talks about how he became a Christian. It's unbelievable how much he can descend to the depths of imbecility the moment he addresses his mind to dumb God. The only miracle this cursed non-existent God has ever done is to miraculously turn an otherwise intelligent theist into a bumbling fool. In fact, this miracle is verifiable - it happens every time.
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
I have to give a name for myself. To identify myself as a theist would be unbearably humiliating. Come on, I'm too intelligent to believe in theism. But Christianity is theistic. I have long called myself an Honest Christian. An Honest Christian is one who KNOWS that his culture / religion is old and contains fables and legends which are of course unreal. God and his merry angels are nonsense.
I will read this entire thread, but I'm guessing this must have been addressed by now. If you have already responded to this, just ignore it. I will catch up.
You are an atheist by definition. You don't believe in a god. Whether you are sure there is no god or just don't have a belief in one, you are an atheist.
I understand your position on this, because I've been there most of my life. I also understand your connection with the church and that you feel a connection to Christianity, as I did culturally. BUT... Christians believe in God. They also believe in Jesus as the son of God. That's the definition of a Christian. By definition, you are NOT a Christian.
It seems to me that you are trying to hold onto two mutually exclusive view points by coming up with a definition or a word that somehow brings the two things together and allows you to not let go of either. Literally, I don't think that's possible. Why are you a Christian then? Because you believe it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and murder people? Non Christians believe that too. There's nothing special there, so holding some Christian values is not what makes people Christians.
I guess you could make up a new term, and call yourself a "cultural Christian." You can make up any term you want, but you won't really be a Christian. This kind of thing kind of runs around the No True Scotsman fallacy, and challenges it somewhat on the grounds that you say you are a Christian, but I for one will never believe you are a Christian. Not because you are lying to me. But I believe you are playing one of those ever present mental games that we all play with ourselves in an attempt to create an image that you think you deserve.
Don't get me wrong. I don't care if you do this, but being the pedant that I am, I do not accept your claim to Christianity because you are playing with definitions. Unless you can come up with some explanation that I haven't considered.
Now I will read the rest of the thread.
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 08:46:02 PM
As an altar boy, I am very much into anything ceremonial and ritualistic. But you'd be mad to think that I pray when I'm not doing my altar duties in church. Even during prayers, my head is bowed and my hands clasped as is required of an acolyte but my mind is on other things.
Wow! How I can relate to that. Even before I came to grips with the thing, I would concentrate on praying. But my mind would be on other things. I'd be concentrating on prayer, while in the back of my head there was this tune constantly playing: "There's nothing on the other end of these prayers. I'm acting like an idiot praying when there's nothing listening."
Quote from: Mike Cl on September 29, 2017, 09:02:39 PM
Really? I somehow don't think you really mean that. Are you suggesting that the mind you have now will crystallize and stay the same? You will have no new thoughts in 35 years? No new emotions? You have seen all and done all in your 15 yrs? Do you think the world will stay as it is now? Do you think the world of 2050 will be as it is now?
One lesson I'm always learning--never say 'never', 'ever' or 'always'. You just never know what the world is going to visit your life with; or whom.
OMG! You nailed that one. People change. There's an old adage: "People don't change." I suppose it's built on some idiosyncratic perception. But people change. Sometimes not a lot, sometimes a whole lot. I know the feeling as you get older, say into your 50s and 60s, where you have this realization that your getting older, yet you still think about sex like you did when you were in your teens, and you often find yourself making the same mistakes as if you haven't learned a thing, and there's this thing that pops into your head that even though you are older and more mature, you're still having these "immature" primate thoughts. But you also have other thoughts and accumulations of experiences that change you in ways you may not think about. People do change.
If you say you will never change, and you somehow are able to stay always the same, you are immediately cutting yourself off from the experiences that give meaning to your life. This is called growth.
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 11:03:52 PM
Of course I will have new input from external stimuli. But what I mean is my brain has reached its full potential. I don't think a 50-year-old is more logical than a 15-year-old. I mean if the theists here (or worse, in CF) are anything to go by and I'm assuming they're all older than me, I think I have done very well.
Yes, you're much farther ahead than most 15 year olds from what I can tell, but you are light years from your potential. We all are. One of the hardest things for me was letting go of perceptions and approaches to problems that were nothing short of habits, often bad habits. And some of those bad habits were things that I cherished. Don't become complacent thinking your habits need to be held onto on the grounds that you think they are special.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 29, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
St. Truth, I feel I should warn you about discussing your views on religion with others - it may become dangerous for your health. Even if it's not detrimental to your physical safety, in could lead to you being ostracized by your community, or some such.
Only you can choose how much of your views to share, though, so good luck with it.
Even as a theist, they're many religious claims I don't subscribe to and I haven't been involved in organized religion in over 10 years. I never get into a conflict with such people who are often very nice people and I don't attempt to disabuse them of their beliefs. People are free in their pursuit of happiness who am I to disagree?
Quote from: Drew_2017 on September 30, 2017, 05:58:01 PM
Even as a theist, they're many religious claims I don't subscribe to and I haven't been involved in organized religion in over 10 years. I never get into a conflict with such people who are often very nice people and I don't attempt to disabuse them of their beliefs. People are free in their pursuit of happiness who am I to disagree?
Far be it for you to disagree with anyone.
Quote from: SGOS on September 30, 2017, 07:22:47 PM
Far be it for you to disagree with anyone.
Present company excluded...
Quote from: SGOS on September 30, 2017, 12:47:37 PM
I will read this entire thread, but I'm guessing this must have been addressed by now. If you have already responded to this, just ignore it. I will catch up.
You are an atheist by definition. You don't believe in a god. Whether you are sure there is no god or just don't have a belief in one, you are an atheist.
I understand your position on this, because I've been there most of my life. I also understand your connection with the church and that you feel a connection to Christianity, as I did culturally. BUT... Christians believe in God. They also believe in Jesus as the son of God. That's the definition of a Christian. By definition, you are NOT a Christian.
It seems to me that you are trying to hold onto two mutually exclusive view points by coming up with a definition or a word that somehow brings the two things together and allows you to not let go of either. Literally, I don't think that's possible. Why are you a Christian then? Because you believe it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal, and murder people? Non Christians believe that too. There's nothing special there, so holding some Christian values is not what makes people Christians.
I guess you could make up a new term, and call yourself a "cultural Christian." You can make up any term you want, but you won't really be a Christian. This kind of thing kind of runs around the No True Scotsman fallacy, and challenges it somewhat on the grounds that you say you are a Christian, but I for one will never believe you are a Christian. Not because you are lying to me. But I believe you are playing one of those ever present mental games that we all play with ourselves in an attempt to create an image that you think you deserve.
Don't get me wrong. I don't care if you do this, but being the pedant that I am, I do not accept your claim to Christianity because you are playing with definitions. Unless you can come up with some explanation that I haven't considered.
Now I will read the rest of the thread.
I'm not sure if your definition of a 'Christian' is right. Of course I don't believe in the existence of God. A person needs to be really stupid to accept that or if he's not stupid, he has to abandon his thoughts when he goes into a religious mood. I've read about it. This is how seemingly intelligent people can really believe in something as laughably stupid as God.
But a Christian who is consistently intelligent and does not anaesthetise his mind can still be a Christian. There are many priests in my church who don't believe in god. As my vicar tells me, whether I'm a Christian or not must depend on what the church says. I have been baptised and confirmed. I continue to serve the church as an altar boy. Dawkins went through the same thing. He was baptised and confirmed in the same church as mine. Both our names are in the same roll of the church. The only differences between him and me are:
1. Dawkins was a believer in rubbish until the age of 16 while I knew rubbish to be rubbish at a much earlier age.
2. Dawkins no longer attends church and does not participate in the rituals of the church nor does he submit to church authority and now calls himself an atheist. I'm still an altar boy. I still take the Sacraments. I submit to church authority.
As my vicar says, if Dawkins were to go to church, he will be given the Sacraments. Because as far as the church goes, he has not been excommunicated. He is an atheist only because he wants to be one. But if he decides to join me in church at the altar to receive the Sacraments, no priest will refuse him.
Following this understanding of the faith and of the power of the church over who is or is not a Christian, every baptised and confirmed communicant of my church is a Christian unless he withdraws himself from the church or unless he is excommunicated.
So, I am a Christian. It's just that my mind is fully atheistic. I have no qualms about blaspheming like a pirate. But when I'm wearing my cassock and in church, I submit to the church. My vicar who knows my stand on this, says that submission coupled with my baptism and confirmation makes me a full-fledged Christian in the eyes of my church. It's not just my vicar. Two bishops have said the same thing with respect to me. They all know I'm right in my head and I'm not a lunatic when it comes to accepting no God or fairy. But they still think I'm a fine Christian.
Maybe it's only American Christians who are bothered about what a person actually believes. I know in most religious forums, people can't accept me as a Christian. But as my vicar says, it's for the church to decide and not outsiders. I don't really mind if I'm called an atheist. It can be very embarrassing to be thought of as a believer in God. In intellectual circles in Britain, you'll be looked on as a moron if you say you really believe in God. I always say I'm a cultural Christian. My dad does that too once when he brought me to a literary conference in Wales. The people there really treated believers as if they had a brain disease. Looking at the theists online and on AF, I wouldn't be surprised if indeed all theists have some form of a brain disease. LOL
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
The world extends too much courtesy to theists and this must stop. Irrational people must be told they are irrational. In most forums, I have noticed that these irrational folks are given special courtesy because we have all been brought up not to tell a theist that his belief is garbage. It's considered rude. But it's not thought of as rude for dumb theists to run down atheism. This imbalance of giving the licence to be rude to a bunch of idiots and intelligent atheists have to bear the brunt of their rudeness must be addressed and corrected. I believe theists should have the freedom to believe in nonsense if they want to. It's a free world. But there should be a law that requires them to at least confess that their belief is irrational and foolish.
It's particularly tough on me because I am not just a communicant Christian but an altar boy too. It's a pity I can't wear a sign on my cassock that says 'I don't believe in supernatural nonsense'.
These are hard truths that the world must acknowledge. We must forget courtesy for once and state the truth firmly and unflinchingly. I do it always for I am...
St Truth
The struggle is hard. If we can help, we will.
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
I'm not sure if your definition of a 'Christian' is right.
Technically, I believe I'm correct. But who really decides? The definition given to us was created by the original Christians who chose which books were to be included in the Bible, and that book is generally lauded to be the final authority. It sets down quite specific rules for being a Christian.
But if I look at it your way, I could say identify yourself however you want. God's characteristics are determined by people, and everyone tweaks the common definition, if indeed there is a common definition, to suit his own needs. The end result is that very few people, even those of the same faith agree on what God is.
So why not tweak the definition of Christian to suit one's personal needs, and call yourself whatever you want. In truth, people make up their own definitions about all sorts of things, which might be the biggest reason that people don't understand each other. And in religious matters where things must be taken on faith, and no actual evidence is provided, your word is a good as anyone else's... Except that it renders the word useless. And as centuries drift by, churches corrupt the Bible's words and spread their own authoritative interpretations. That's OK, but they are not consistent.
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
There are many priests in my church who don't believe in god.
The same is true in the US although such confessions are more hush hush.
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
As my vicar tells me, whether I'm a Christian or not must depend on what the church says.
What makes him more qualified to tell you what you are than some Baptist preacher? He doesn't believe in God, so it's not likely he's getting this from an objective source. If you want to define yourself, deciding on a preferred authority to do it for you doesn't really meet that standard.
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
Following this understanding of the faith and of the power of the church over who is or is not a Christian, every baptised and confirmed communicant of my church is a Christian unless he withdraws himself from the church or unless he is excommunicated.
That's identical to the same bureaucratic authority used by biggest organized religions in the US. The smaller protestant sects use more self determination. But all religions are very similar. Deciding for yourself is always applauded, as long as you decide their way.
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
So, I am a Christian. It's just that my mind is fully atheistic.
Well, in that case, I'm a cowboy, except that I don't know how to ride a horse or rope a cow. But I think it would be good to be a cowboy.
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
I submit to the church.
Is this a point of pride? Is it rational?
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
My vicar who knows my stand on this, says that submission coupled with my baptism and confirmation makes me a full-fledged Christian in the eyes of my church. It's not just my vicar. Two bishops have said the same thing with respect to me. They all know I'm right in my head and I'm not a lunatic when it comes to accepting no God or fairy. But they still think I'm a fine Christian. Maybe it's only American Christians who are bothered about what a person actually believes.
Brits must be as bothered by the beliefs of others as American Christians, and you are a good example, unless you are an anomaly. You are unusually bothered by American Christians, enough so that you join their forums to state your position and do battle. Few Americans would go that far out of their way to express such disapproval, except for the few that enjoy the confrontation found in forums. Here, your behavior would be considered unusual by the majority.
Your actions certainly must piss Christians off, but I don't think it's because they stay awake at nights being bothered by what Anglicans believe across the pond. Really, they could care less about Anglicans, except when you get in their face. The point is, who is actually the one most bothered? I think you should try to answer that question honestly. The meaningful quest in my opinion is not in searching for God, but the pursuit of inner discovery. The kind of discovery that <horror of horrors> causes changes in people.
And keep in mind that most of the Christian books were written decades or even centuries after the death of the alleged Jesus. Sort of like if WWI generations suddenly wrote stories about Fred the Founder of the US government without knowing much about him...
Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 06:46:14 AM
And keep in mind that most of the Christian books were written decades or even centuries after the death of the alleged Jesus. Sort of like if WWI generations suddenly wrote stories about Fred the Founder of the US government without knowing much about him...
It's difficult to establish the beginning of Christianity. It was most like a century long process as the meme slowly spread until enough people began hearing the story over and over from multiple sources. I arbitrarily chose the assembling of transcripts into the anthology as the beginning, kind of like the date when it was officially documented and submitted into the record. In actuality, there can be no specific date for the long period of momentum building. In it's beginnings, people wouldn't have even guessed it would become a dominant religion. I doubt that is was even called Christianity at first. I like to mark it's inception with the Bible, when charismatic leaders were able to give it a final push into celebrity status, articulate it's basic tenants, and produce a manifesto that would become the basis for all further Christianity.
Christians usually associate the beginning of their faith with the birth of Baby Jesus, but I'm a bit too cynical to think that anyone picked up the event on the evening news and was relieved to hear there was finally a new religion long awaited since the prophecies.
Other's might place the date of Christianity's establishment with the creation of the Nicene Creed, the basics of which clearly express the tenants of Christianity with the beginning words:
QuoteI believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
There are no doubt variations, as the original, still used by the Lutheran Church, back in my Christian days paid special homage to the "Holy Catholic Church." This always perplexed me, since the Catholics were the bad guys, but someone had failed to remove that part from the creed when we adopted it. I would guess the Anglican Church uses the creed or a variation of it. It seems to be well established throughout Christianity.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 02:30:30 AM
The struggle is hard. If we can help, we will.
If you were an atheist from birth ... your struggle was what?
Quote from: SGOS on September 30, 2017, 12:55:42 PM
Wow! How I can relate to that. Even before I came to grips with the thing, I would concentrate on praying. But my mind would be on other things. I'd be concentrating on prayer, while in the back of my head there was this tune constantly playing: "There's nothing on the other end of these prayers. I'm acting like an idiot praying when there's nothing listening."
Not the purpose of prayer. G-d knows what you are thinking already, also knows what you need vs what you want (conventional theology). You had a child-like view of prayer, as most people do. You needed to articulate, to yourself, who and what you are ... and act on that ... that is the purpose of prayer. Self examination and self motivation. In the Jewish tradition, prayer is you bringing to your attention, your need for repentance. The result of genuine repentance is a devotion to good deeds. And one of the good deeds is to pray ... but with the correct intention. Ignorant prayer or prayer with the wrong intention are useless ... and that is what you knew, or were taught. You never got to the maturity necessary to realize this, but that is OK.
Quote from: Baruch on October 01, 2017, 01:52:07 PM
You had a child-like view of prayer, as most people do. You needed to articulate, to yourself, who and what you are ... and act on that ... that is the purpose of prayer.
And God is required for this because...?
Short early history of Christianity ... those who have studied here, already know ...
1. There were messianic movements in Judah and Israel and the Diaspora. More than one, they existed from before Judah Maccabee (before 150 BCE), until after Apostle Paul. There is a history to this before Judah Maccabee, and a context. All Jewish messiahs are false messiahs. Only Gentile messiahs are true (Constantine) ... cough.
2. This process went thru a long and violent period, arriving at a punctuation point in the 4th century CE. So this took about 500 years. The end point was Orthodox Judaism (rabbinic Judaism transitioning form Hebrew to Aramaic) and Orthodox Christianity (Greek and Latin and Armenian and Ethiopian and Syrian depending on where your home was, who was ruling you and what native language you had). Orthodox Judaism was made up of Jewish people. Orthodox Christianity was made up of Gentile people (including descendants of former Hellenistic Jews who lost all Judaism).
3. This history has repeated itself, as history tends to do. The revised Hellenized Jews didn't speak Greek, they spoke Spanish and German (sephardim and ashkenazim). ME Jews spoke Aramaic initially, but eventually spoke Arabic (mizrahim). A few Gentiles were converts to Judaism (kazars and others). There was a false Jewish messiah as recently as 1994 (rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of the Lubavitch Hasidim). The Zionism of Persian-ruled Jews returning to Judah, was repeated in modern Israel.
Quote from: SGOS on October 01, 2017, 02:01:18 PM
And God is required for this because...?
Religion is applied personal and social psychology. Today it can be done from a purely secular POV ... G-d isn't necessary. It is a style choice. My choice, my style. But you don't have to do introspection (prayer) if you don't want to. There is no compulsion in my religion, not in heresy anyway ;-) Arguing from epistemology or metaphysics even, misses the whole point. Man wasn't made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made by men, for men.
G-d is an idea, that serves as a concept that allows one to escape the corruption of self-interest and self-regard. One can go too far with this ... hate humanity and hate your own self. Desert Fathers in the 4th century for example, but asceticism in Egypt, and in India, goes way back into early history. During the Ashura festival in Shia Islam, they still do this ... beat themselves with chains. Flagellants did this in Medieval Europe. Fakirs still do this in India.
As a demigod ... I reject excessive denial of self and society ... which I regard as anti-humanist. But if you are purely selfish, you are psychologically sick in a different way. Nothing In Excess (see Delphic priestess for more). We humans are caught between a rock and a hammer .. self regard and self hate (which we then project on society as a whole). This is why I take Shiranu's POV as misdirected self hate. And the solution is for him to do a lot of introspection (self healing) in a monastery. I see him really getting into Gregorian Chant.
Quote from: Baruch on October 01, 2017, 01:52:07 PM
Not the purpose of prayer. G-d knows what you are thinking already, also knows what you need vs what you want (conventional theology). You had a child-like view of prayer, as most people do. You needed to articulate, to yourself, who and what you are ... and act on that ... that is the purpose of prayer. Self examination and self motivation. In the Jewish tradition, prayer is you bringing to your attention, your need for repentance. The result of genuine repentance is a devotion to good deeds. And one of the good deeds is to pray ... but with the correct intention. Ignorant prayer or prayer with the wrong intention are useless ... and that is what you knew, or were taught. You never got to the maturity necessary to realize this, but that is OK.
95% of christians today don't know that. This is what Matthew has to say about it:
Matthew 6:5-13.
“And now about prayer. When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I assure you, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father secretly. Then your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you."
And if christians were serious about following their book of instructions, why would they want prayer in school or before any public activity or meeting? That is going against what Matthew says jesus said. But then, when do real christians give a shit about what 'Jesus' is supposed to have taught??
Quote from: SGOS on October 01, 2017, 02:29:45 PM
Thank you.
I am both mature and reasonable. But I would still recommend introspection, particularly for St Truth and Shiranu. Young men have a lot of stuff to work out.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 01, 2017, 02:25:36 PM
95% of christians today don't know that. This is what Matthew has to say about it:
Matthew 6:5-13.
“And now about prayer. When you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I assure you, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father secretly. Then your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you."
And if christians were serious about following their book of instructions, why would they want prayer in school or before any public activity or meeting? That is going against what Matthew says jesus said. But then, when do real christians give a shit about what 'Jesus' is supposed to have taught??
If Christians were both educated, consistent and seriously Orthodox ... they would kill us, same as the Muslims. Me for being Jewish, you for being atheist. So be glad that their clown car is in the ditch so frequently ;-)
Quote from: SGOS on October 01, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
It's difficult to establish the beginning of Christianity. It was most like a century long process as the meme slowly spread until enough people began hearing the story over and over from multiple sources. I arbitrarily chose the assembling of transcripts into the anthology as the beginning, kind of like the date when it was officially documented and submitted into the record. In actuality, there can be no specific date for the long period of momentum building. In it's beginnings, people wouldn't have even guessed it would become a dominant religion. I doubt that is was even called Christianity at first. I like to mark it's inception with the Bible, when charismatic leaders were able to give it a final push into celebrity status, articulate it's basic tenants, and produce a manifesto that would become the basis for all further Christianity.
Christians usually associate the beginning of their faith with the birth of Baby Jesus, but I'm a bit too cynical to think that anyone picked up the event on the evening news and was relieved to hear there was finally a new religion long awaited since the prophecies.
Other's might place the date of Christianity's establishment with the creation of the Nicene Creed, the basics of which clearly express the tenants of Christianity with the beginning words:
Christianity already existed not long after Jesus was executed for treason. What the Gospels say is rubbish. Jesus, if he existed at all (and there is a huge likelihood that he didn't) was most probably an apocalyptic zealot. There were many in those days and their goal was to free Israel of Roman rule. John's gospel changed that to a more spiritual 'kingdom'. That was a necessity because John's gospel was written much later and by that time, it was obvious to everyone that Jesus' promise of a return during the lifetime of his disciples ain't gonna happen because the poor chap had long become worm food.
Quote from: SGOS on October 01, 2017, 01:29:01 PM
There are no doubt variations, as the original, still used by the Lutheran Church, back in my Christian days paid special homage to the "Holy Catholic Church." This always perplexed me, since the Catholics were the bad guys, but someone had failed to remove that part from the creed when we adopted it. I would guess the Anglican Church uses the creed or a variation of it. It seems to be well established throughout Christianity.
There are no variations to the Nicene Creed. The substance is always intact. The only variation comes from the Orthodox church but it's a minor variation. Just a dumb quibble over a few words. That's what religious nutters love to do. You are mistaken about the Holy Catholic Church. That is not the same as the Roman Catholic church. The dumb Papists sometimes dropped the 'Roman' and people wrongly associate 'Catholic' to Roman Catholic. but that's historically incorrect. The Roman Catholic Church is the Church of Rome. My church is the English Catholic Church or the Church of England. Catholic simply means 'universal'. When the Creed is recited we are simply affirming the universal church and not just our own regional churches. It is for this reason that any one of us were to join different churches whether they are from the RC, Protestant or Orthodox tradition cannot be baptised again. Our baptism is valid whatever our tradition may be. Only the dumb Baptists will baptise you again but they're an American cult.
Quote from: St Truth on September 29, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
By mid December, I will reach a new milestone in my life. I'll hit the age of majority in Scotland although less enlightened countries such as England, Wales, and the US recognise an older age. Where shall I stand vis-a-vis religion?
Where should you stand on religion? On it's neck!
Quote from: St Truth on October 01, 2017, 02:00:26 AMMaybe it's only American Christians who are bothered about what a person actually believes.
In some parts of Europe, there is an official religion, but it's usually pretty inclusive, inoffensive stuff - like Unitarian churches are here. It's a cultural thing more than a political thing.
In the US, religion is somewhat different. There are multiple religions, multiple denominations in intense competition and they've found some creative and effective ways to sell these beliefs. In the US, a lot of people really believe this stuff. And some of these people are extremely religious and extremely politically active. In fact, religion has become somewhat enmeshed with politics despite our official policy of secular government. Candidates for office tout their religious convictions as if they were a part of their platform. And in a way, they are.
These beliefs affect policy, which in turn, affect people. That's why Americans, especially atheist Americans, are interested in a person's religious beliefs. This interest that stems from much more than idle curiosity. It's a pretty good indicator if a person is a sane person or a dangerous nutbar.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 01, 2017, 11:29:31 PM
In some parts of Europe, there is an official religion, but it's usually pretty inclusive, inoffensive stuff - like Unitarian churches are here. It's a cultural thing more than a political thing.
In the US, religion is somewhat different. There are multiple religions, multiple denominations in intense competition and they've found some creative and effective ways to sell these beliefs. In the US, a lot of people really believe this stuff. And some of these people are extremely religious and extremely politically active. In fact, religion has become somewhat enmeshed with politics despite our official policy of secular government. Candidates for office tout their religious convictions as if they were a part of their platform. And in a way, they are.
These beliefs affect policy, which in turn, affect people. That's why Americans, especially atheist Americans, are interested in a person's religious beliefs. This interest that stems from much more than idle curiosity. It's a pretty good indicator if a person is a sane person or a dangerous nutbar.
Is 'nutbar an American word for the English 'nutter'? We call religious crackpots 'nutters'.
Quote from: Hydra009 on October 01, 2017, 11:29:31 PM
In some parts of Europe, there is an official religion, but it's usually pretty inclusive, inoffensive stuff - like Unitarian churches are here. It's a cultural thing more than a political thing.
In the US, religion is somewhat different. There are multiple religions, multiple denominations in intense competition and they've found some creative and effective ways to sell these beliefs. In the US, a lot of people really believe this stuff. And some of these people are extremely religious and extremely politically active. In fact, religion has become somewhat enmeshed with politics despite our official policy of secular government. Candidates for office tout their religious convictions as if they were a part of their platform. And in a way, they are.
These beliefs affect policy, which in turn, affect people. That's why Americans, especially atheist Americans, are interested in a person's religious beliefs. This interest that stems from much more than idle curiosity. It's a pretty good indicator if a person is a sane person or a dangerous nutbar.
American enthusiasm for sports, politics, religion, etc. We are the rejects of Europe, and proud of it. So are the Australians and Canadians. NZ is more like the mother country. The Enlightenment leaders were cool, calm, collected. But then that was replaced with the Romantic leaders (something already brewing in the 18th century). Don't know why Europeans are so ... passive. Maybe sending all the seriously emotional people to other places, drained their gene pool of that kind of person?
So are Americans potentially willing (as a Walmart shopper) to burn people at the stake for shopping at Target? Perhaps. We do trample people to death trying to get into a store that is opening with a sales special ;-( Just think of us as New Guinea, but without the pig tusks thru our nose, and without the cannibalism.
All theisms are equally idiotic. None are better than another.