Atheistforums.com

The European-Arab Dialog

It has been planned, agreed, signed decades ago in secret with the Arabs.
Selling Europe for oil, in exchange for millions of migrants and Islamisation. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QydOVjec5A

Islam is a cancer. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad that the media has convinced people much like myself - militant, anti-theist atheists - that islam must be protected, and that it's actually peaceful.

Response A: This is anti immigrant propaganda

Response B: This was years ago so it doesn't matter anymore

Response C: pr is a horrible person

Response D: all of the above

Quote from: Gilgamesh on September 29, 2017, 12:58:49 AM
Islam is a cancer. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad that the media has convinced people much like myself - militant, anti-theist atheists - that islam must be protected, and that it's actually peaceful.

The Leftist traitors are just as horrible as the Rightist traitors.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on September 29, 2017, 12:58:49 AM
Islam is a cancer. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad that the media has convinced people much like myself - militant, anti-theist atheists - that islam must be protected, and that it's actually peaceful.

that just stems from the fact people of a certain political standard can't separate the people from the religion, if you insult religion your insulting people according to them. And given this is an atheist forum where we see cults like Christianity insulted all the time its even more surprising when certain people get all defensive if you insult islam.

perhaps its due to Christianity no longer being a theocracy in the west so it doesn't have the kind of ties islam does to its people in the middle east, but anyone would common sense should be able to at least understand what such a theocracy does to people in those regions, and why taking the piss out of islam isn't insulting people, just what they believe. 

Munch wrote:

QuoteThat just stems from the fact people of a certain political standard can't separate the people from the religion, if you insult religion your insulting people according to them. And given this is an atheist forum where we see cults like Christianity insulted all the time its even more surprising when certain people get all defensive if you insult islam.

Some people, (SJW, virtue signallers) are looking at the world through the lens of oppressors and oppressed.
For them, Muslims are one of the oppressed people.

White males are the oppressors, everyone else is the oppressed.
Marxist thinking.

The fact that Islam is a totalitarian, fascist, supremacist, evil ideology for them is immaterial.
Gender apartheid, oppression of women, FGM, forced child marriage, pathological hatred for everything non-Muslim, excessive violence is also overlooked lest we appear racist, intolerant, and Islamophobic.

I think most everyone here puts Islam and Christianity in the same category of religious fantasy, and I'm not sure who here would defend Islam but attack Christianity.  In my mind there is no defense for either one until a god makes himself known to all and lays out his demands.  If such a god turns out to be the Allah, mankind would have no alterative but to torture and kill Christians, Jews, and Hindus.  If the real god turns out to be the Yahweh, mankind would have no alternative but to quit baking cakes for gay people.  If either one turns out to be the real god, religious freedom comes to an end.  It already has for many Christians and Muslims who claim to have ascertained truths that have only been divined by the chosen.

They are not defending Islam per se.
No, it is the oppressed Muslims they are defending. (ask Shiranu.)

Muslims cannot help belonging to a vile totalitarian political religion.
They are not responsible for what is in the Quran. Not responsible for a lifetime of brainwashing.

They need our help and understanding.

#NOTALLMUSLIMS

Quote from: pr126 on September 29, 2017, 10:01:18 AM
They are not defending Islam per se.
No, it is the oppressed Muslims they are defending. (ask Shiranu.)

Muslims cannot help belonging to a vile totalitarian political religion.
They are not responsible for what is in the Quran. Not responsible for a lifetime of brainwashing.

They need our help and understanding.

#NOTALLMUSLIMS

Yeah, I've been aware of the Muslims/Not all Muslims 'catch 22.'  Civility applauds inviting strangers into your home, and many Muslims are no more than strangers.  But while some will accept your food and shelter and repay you with gratitude, some are also predisposed to approve of your murder or your subjugation as useful slaves.  So how do you decide what to do?  It becomes a problem, but who is blowing the problem out of proportion, or is there no problem at all?

There are serious problems here in Europe. The mainstream media doesn't report it.
So far in the USA is not noticeable because the Muslims are less than 1%.
Lots of videos on  Youtube  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhD2bEChQQM) to demonstrate the  problems. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAWkTrtuhMw)


A video on immigration: Starts at 3:13  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PynSrlt3qcw)

Quote from: Gilgamesh on September 29, 2017, 12:58:49 AM
Islam is a cancer. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad that the media has convinced people much like myself - militant, anti-theist atheists - that islam must be protected, and that it's actually peaceful.

Meh, not much worse than Christianity these days. Only difference is the extremists in Islam got a head-start this time around.

Hijiri Byakuren wrote:

QuoteMeh, not much worse than Christianity these days. Only difference is the extremists in Islam got a head-start this time around.

Until it comes to your street.

 New World Order: Muslims to be majority in Europe within two generations  (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/26/muslim-majority-in-france-projected-in-40-years/)

QuoteWithin 40 years, given current demographic trends, the white population in France and the rest of old Europe will recede, creating a Muslim majority, a French researcher says.
Charles Gave, an economist, fund manager and political commentator, published his conclusions this month on the webpage of his think tank, Institute des Libertes. He writes of the “disappearance of the European populations” as native populations shrink and Muslims continue to exhibit a robust fertility rate.
Mr. Gave, president of Gavekal Research, acknowledges that his decidedly unpolitically correct view may bring him scorn and possibly censorship. The political left generally protects Islam from criticism. In the U.S., President Obama consistently defended Islam and mocked Christians for their criticism.
The paper, titled “The White Plague,” is dangerous, Mr. Gave said, “for my personal respectability and my chance to be heard in our beautiful democracy.”
The financier draws his conclusion from demographics. He assesses France’s white, or native, birthrate at 1.4 children per woman, compared with a Muslim rate of 3.4 to 4 children. France’s population today is 67 million. Unlike the U.S., France does not conduct a census on ethnic origin, but based on outside polling, some researchers, including Mr. Gave, believe the French population is already 10 percent Muslim, with 6.7 million people.

France’s official birthrate is 1.9 per woman, but Mr. Gave’s calculations put the native rate at 1.4. Overall, the European birthrate is a low 1.6 per woman.
Mr. Gave extrapolates those numbers, a declining white population and a growing Muslim population, and concludes that France will have a Muslim majority by 2057.

Read:  Muslims (political Islam) in charge of UK and France nuclear armaments.

I'm not sure when 10% constituted a majority, but sounds good. You also have to consider that 10% includes Turkey, Albania, and the other traditional Muslim-European regions... but don't do that, because that makes the whole scary narrative a little less impressive.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/muslim-population-growth-christians-religion-pew

Also interesting that these countries that are apparently on the edge of falling have the highest rates of happiness, highest rates of standard of living and highest rates of approval for Muslims. Funny how these borderline war zones that will have Sharaih law fully implemented and Western culture fully demolished and any day now seem to be the most prosperous and happy populations, with those numbers rising.

It's almost like random bloggers and fear-mongerers in the U.K. and U.S. don't know shit about countries they have never been to. Or maybe the media has just managed to convince how ever many hundred million that everything is okay when it's not. Which one seems more likely...

 Submission  (http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/submission)

QuoteSubmission. That’s what the word “Islam” means. Muslims must submit to Allah, and the rest of the world must eventually submit to Islam. Submission does not necessarily require conversion, but it does require that one acknowledge the superiority of Islam, pay the jizya tax, and, in general, keep one’s head down.

Europe is currently in the process of submitting to Islam, and America also seems destined to eventually submit. If you have young children or grandchildren, it’s likely that they will have to adapt at some point to living in a Muslim-dominated society. It won’t necessarily be a Muslim-majority society because, as history testifies, Muslims don’t need a majority in order to successfully take control of non-Muslim societies.

If and when Islam persuades America to submit, it most probably won’t be through force of arms. The civilizational struggle in which we are now engaged is primarily a culture war. America used to be good at cultural warfare because America once had cultural confidence. The Cold War was in large part a cultural war, and America won it because it didn’t have qualms about demonstrating the superiority of the American way to the Soviet way.

But times change. These days, many Americans would rather shred their culture than spread it. Cultural shame rather than cultural pride rules the day. And, not surprisingly, people who are ashamed of their culture can’t be counted on to defend it. Those who are anxious to pull down statues of Washington, Jefferson, and Columbus are unlikely to put up much resistance to Islam’s cultural aggression. Instead, they will be disposed to facilitate it.

Islam, on the other hand, is full of new-found cultural pride. After the defeat of the Russians in Afghanistan, the overthrow of the Shah in Iran, and the toppling of the Twin Towers, Muslims could once again believe that Allah had destined them to subjugate the world to Islam. At the same time that Americans began to doubt their own cultural heritage, Islam undertook a remarkable campaign to export its ideology to the rest of the world. Enabled by massive oil revenues, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States funded the building of mosques and madrassas all over the world. While America was investing heavily in new weapons systems, the Gulf States were placing their bets on a weaponized religious system.

And there’s the rub. Buoyed by the initial successes in Iraq and Afghanistan, Americans began to think of the war against jihad as primarily a military affair. In the process of defeating the enemy on the battlefield, we lost sight of the cultural side of the struggle. But Islamists stayed focused on the larger picture. While we were winning the armed battles in Afghanistan and Iraq, the cultural jihadists were winning battle after battle on the culture front.

Indeed, most of the Islamist victories came without a struggle. Key cultural institution in the West simply acquiesced to whatever it was that the Islamists wanted. Hijabs in the workplace? Diversity demands it. Prayer breaks for Muslim employees? Well, no more than five a day. Islam-friendly curriculums in K-through grad-school? Think of it as affirmative action for years of neglect. More Muslim immigrants? It would be against our values to say no.

A culture war can only be fought by cultural institutionsâ€"schools, churches, political and civic organizations, and so on. As things stand, however, none of our cultural institutions have shown much evidence that they are equipped to fight a culture war with cultural jihadists. The chief reason this is so is that most of these institutions are still fighting the last culture warâ€"the civil rights struggle and the concomitant war against intolerance, racism, and bigotry. This “old-war” mentality makes it nearly impossible for our cultural and civic leaders to resist Islamization. Because so many Americans still live mentally in a time when intolerance was considered the greatest evil, they have difficulty understanding that an indiscriminate tolerance can father just as many sins.

One way of grasping the vulnerability of our society to Islamization is to ask “Who’s going to stop it?” Where, exactly, are the forces of resistance?

The university? American universities are bastions of political correctness and mandatory tolerance. Most of them are already quite sympathetic to the Islamic point of view. A combination of intimidation (from both Muslim and leftist groups), Saudi money, and multicultural ideology has ensured that when push comes to shove, the universities will line up with the Islamist camp. If present trends continue, American universities will fold to Islam just as German universities once folded to the Nazis.

The media? The media is still trying to find a motive for the 9-11 attack. That’s because it still won’t make the connection between Islamic terror and Islamic belief. In general, media people see it as their duty to put the best possible face on all things Islamic. Scratch the media as a source of resistance.

QuoteWhy are the counter-jihad sites being shut down? Because they supposedly are “intolerant” and “racist.” Here we come back to the “old-war” mentality. The corporations, the schools, the churches, and the media are ready to do battle with racists, sexists, homophobes, Islamophobes, and transgenderphobes, but they lack the mindset that would allow them to resist the long march through the institutions being conducted by determined and skillful cultural jihadists. In short, their energies are focused on evils that have long been in retreat or on non-existent evils (transgenderphobia, etc.). Meanwhile, the much larger threat posed by Islam draws ever closer.

The people who might be expected to fight this new culture war are scarcely aware of its existence. They are too busy championing the cause of newly invented “civil rights.” Fifty years ago they would have been on the cutting edge, now they are on the edge of irrelevancy.

Quote from: pr126 on September 29, 2017, 11:17:47 PM
New World Order: Muslims to be majority in Europe within two generations  (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/26/muslim-majority-in-france-projected-in-40-years/)
Read:  Muslims (political Islam) in charge of UK and France nuclear armaments.

Pakistan already has them.

Quote from: Baruch on September 30, 2017, 02:05:48 AM
Pakistan already has them.

But America is paying $$ billions in  "jizya" to Pakistan for many years now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/us/politics/us-aid-pakistan-terror.html?mcubz=3

https://www.cgdev.org/page/aid-pakistan-numbers

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/23/trump-administration-threatens-to-cut-aid-to-pakistan-does-it-matter/

Quote from: pr126 on September 30, 2017, 02:35:08 AM
But America is paying $$ billions in  "jizya" to Pakistan for many years now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/us/politics/us-aid-pakistan-terror.html?mcubz=3

https://www.cgdev.org/page/aid-pakistan-numbers

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/23/trump-administration-threatens-to-cut-aid-to-pakistan-does-it-matter/

So is GB ... we are allies.  What we are, you are.  Special relationship and all.

So why not pay blackmail?  Why are we moving all industry to China?  Why are we moving all gold to China?  Because if we don't China will nuke us.  We will invert JFK, and pay any price to get the next iPhone.  I for one welcome our Chinese overlords.  Don't worry, if you have ME overlords, they are subordinate to their masters in Beijing, like we all are.  Just obey, for there's no other way, but to be a castrated slave of China, there isn't anythin' fina'!

There is an alternative.  Kill all non-Anglophones .. there is only room on this planet for one language (not counting dialects).  Be a man, a real man ... kill billions of useless eaters.  You know that you want all the French, Spanish, Germans, Turks, Arabs etc to be dead already.  My choice is to enjoy my meager rations of fried rice ;-)

Quote from: pr126 on September 29, 2017, 11:39:53 PM
Submission  (http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/submission)

And Christians must submit to God, and Jews must submit to their's, and Hindus must submit to theirs, and etc, etc. 

All religions are basically the same.  SUBMIT, SUBMIT, SUBMIT!  Why do you persist in this nonsense?

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 03:43:01 AM
And Christians must submit to God, and Jews must submit to their's, and Hindus must submit to theirs, and etc, etc. 

All religions are basically the same.  SUBMIT, SUBMIT, SUBMIT!  Why do you persist in this nonsense?

Do Christians, Jews, or any other religions threaten, coerce with lethal actions if you don't submit?

The emphasis is not strictly on conversion, but SUBMISSION  to Islamic rule. Sharia.
It means becoming a subservient second-class citizen, who cannot complain, rebel or dissent.
To become a dhimmi, paying jizya.

Dhimmi  (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dhimmi)
Jizya  (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Jizya)

No other religion on the planet commands this.

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture â€" [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. â€" Qur’an 9:29

As you see, it is not nonsense at all. It is a reality.
To be clear. as a dhimmi you do not submit to Allah, but to Muslims who rule over you.

BTW, I do not persist with this nonsense. Muslims do, at least those who drive Islam.
The rest, [moderates] are irrelevant. They have no say in the matter.
They cannot object because they would reject the Quranic law, which means apostasy. 

I hope this answers your question.

QuoteDo Christians, Jews, or any other religions threaten, coerce with lethal actions if you don't submit?

Yes? See, literally, the entire colonial era (all the way up into your life time), particularly with the Spaniards and the Americans committing mass genocide in the, "name of Christianity", and demolishing countless historical treasures to erase any trace that there was Native American history or culture before Christ. See the Crusades, violence across Africa that stems, largely, from ethnic and religious divides, Christians who kill witches and the like across Africa, LGBT+ children killed across South America and even Europe and America from time to time for not submitting to their religious views, the "Spreading of Christianity" to Africa by the Belgians and English, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 30 years war, the 80 year war, more modern time "The Troubles" and the IRA violence which is equally rooted in Catholicism/Protestantism as it is Irish/English, Kosovo, the Huguenot Wars... I could go on if you like. The point is both historical and contemporary Christianity play a huge, if not critical role in European, African, American and Australian politics and violence. Then you have Israel vs the Arab League which is entirely, "Judaism vs Muslim", and let's not shit ourselves... both sides started it, both sides are terrible human beings to each other, there are war crimes and massacres and oppression coming from both directions, there is no good guy/bad guy, it's just a bunch of good people caught up in some very bad people's schemes.

QuoteThe rest, [moderates] are irrelevant. They have no say in the matter.
They cannot object because they would reject the Quranic law, which means apostasy. 

And yet another outright lie. You have been shown time, time, and time again that major powers out side Saudi Arabia and Iran object to being puppets in the Middle Eastern Cold War (Shia/Sunni or Iran/Saudi) and have repeatedly released statements after terrorist attacks that they condemn the actions. Major powers that represents hundreds of millions of Muslims across the world, the majority of Muslims... and yet that is still not enough? You put cameras in smaller cities, or even more moderate cities like Alexandria, Baku, Istanbul, Izmir, Amaan... they are just normal people who want to go to work, take care of their family, and live a simple life. The image you constantly push is this idea that everyone who follows Islam (a Muslim) is plotting every moment to get you, that all they can think about because of their faith is how they are going to oppress you next... but how many Muslims do you know? Now how many of those Muslims have actively pushed their faith on you? How many vote for Muslim politicians who are forcing Shariah law on you?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2017/mar/26/muslims-condemn-terrorism-stats (https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2017/mar/26/muslims-condemn-terrorism-stats)


You see the world as if it is through a television screen; the juicy bits that the camera wants us to see. But what is happening in between scenes? You are so focused on the main actor and the action that you don't even realise that for all the stimuli the video is giving you... you are ignoring 99.99% of the action around it. When you talk about Muslims, you act as if the man speaking for ISIS is likely like the guy running your local business, or the girl in the rock shirt, tight jeans, makeup and bleach-streaked hair is more or less philosophically similar to the woman in a burqa being beat by her husband in Arabia. The reality is that outside of those scary few you see on T.V., the overwhelming majority of Muslims are very, very boring people when you compare them to your fear mongering. They are just your everyday new immigrant group that everyone is concerned about until the next group comes in and everyone is afraid they will bring about the end of Western civ as you know it... it's the exact same shit as yall found to do with us German, Greeks and Italians and it's the exact same thing you did with the Poles, the Dutch, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Indians.

When you know the history of your people, and as an American that includes Europe and Europe that includes America because of our unbelievably close-ties for how far we are apart, then you realise your shit really doesn't smell any different than theirs. It may look different, and smell a little more one way or the other, but it's still shit. Focusing on these negative things will not solve the problem, but will only drive a wedge between "everyday Christians and everyday Muslims" (just say everyday humans)... but focusing on how we are similar will bring us closer together and slowly destroy the radicals source of ammunition for converting moderates. Your rhetoric is both dangerous and damaging, and is eerily similar at times to some of the wacky ass Imams you occasionally link. You really are far more alike then you realise, you just thankfully aren't a preacher with a powerful voice. You are just an enabler of them, and the violence they spark up, and yes... Christian pastors do still spark violence to this day (see; abortion clinic bombings/attacks/shamings, attacks on LGBT+ community members and the horrifying rate at which they kill themselves, our continued mistreatment of billions of people due to our tying racial supremacy into religious supremacy, our occasional mass shooter who brings religion into the mix, "cults" (non-mainstream Christianity) that rape women and children... again, on and on.

That may be depressing how similar we are, but it also shows that if we can change, so can they... and we only have higher as a species to go.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 01, 2017, 06:05:38 AM
Yes? See, literally, the entire colonial era (all the way up into your life time), particularly with the Spaniards and the Americans committing mass genocide in the, "name of Christianity", and demolishing countless historical treasures to erase any trace that there was Native American history or culture before Christ. See the Crusades, violence across Africa that stems, largely, from ethnic and religious divides, Christians who kill witches and the like across Africa, LGBT+ children killed across South America and even Europe and America from time to time for not submitting to their religious views, the "Spreading of Christianity" to Africa by the Belgians and English, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 30 years war, the 80 year war, more modern time "The Troubles" and the IRA violence which is equally rooted in Catholicism/Protestantism as it is Irish/English, Kosovo, the Huguenot Wars... I could go on if you like. The point is both historical and contemporary Christianity play a huge, if not critical role in European, African, American and Australian politics and violence. Then you have Israel vs the Arab League which is entirely, "Judaism vs Muslim", and let's not shit ourselves... both sides started it, both sides are terrible human beings to each other, there are war crimes and massacres and oppression coming from both directions, there is no good guy/bad guy, it's just a bunch of good people caught up in some very bad people's schemes.

And yet another outright lie. You have been shown time, time, and time again that major powers out side Saudi Arabia and Iran object to being puppets in the Middle Eastern Cold War (Shia/Sunni or Iran/Saudi) and have repeatedly released statements after terrorist attacks that they condemn the actions. Major powers that represents hundreds of millions of Muslims across the world, the majority of Muslims... and yet that is still not enough? You put cameras in smaller cities, or even more moderate cities like Alexandria, Baku, Istanbul, Izmir, Amaan... they are just normal people who want to go to work, take care of their family, and live a simple life. The image you constantly push is this idea that everyone who follows Islam (a Muslim) is plotting every moment to get you, that all they can think about because of their faith is how they are going to oppress you next... but how many Muslims do you know? Now how many of those Muslims have actively pushed their faith on you? How many vote for Muslim politicians who are forcing Shariah law on you?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2017/mar/26/muslims-condemn-terrorism-stats

I won't deny (and in fact have positively condemned) all religious atrocities.  But you ignore the Islamic ones.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 06:15:04 AM
I won't deny (and in fact have positively condemned) all religious atrocities.  But you ignore the Islamic ones.

Because I was talking about our culture not being different. If I brought up the Islamic ones, it would only prove my point that we are exactly the same and instead should focus on the positive. I've just started to realise that pr always says that, and yet he only proves my point every time he does. That's kinda funny looking back on it.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 01, 2017, 06:24:29 AM
Because I was talking about our culture not being different. If I brought up the Islamic ones, it would only prove my point that we are exactly the same and instead should focus on the positive. I've just started to realise that pr always says that, and yet he only proves my point every time he does. That's kinda funny looking back on it.

No, recognizing the history of many religions to commit atrocities does not mean letting one of the hook.  Islamists have committed as many in their shorter time.  The butchery of their conquest of North Africa, into Spain, and into eastern Europe deserves recognition in the Halls Of Infamy.

Would you like details?  I've posted about it before.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2017/mar/26/muslims-condemn-terrorism-stats

The Guardian is an Islamophilic newspaper.

The article is written for gullible fools who desperately want to believe that what they think is true. Confirmation bias. Denying reality.

Those Muslims who condemn the terrorist have to really mean it? No, not at all.
Do they have an option to lie to the kuffar in the service of Islam? Absolutely. It is in the Quran and sharia.

The whole article is damage control.

So what are these Muslims who are condemning "terrorism" doing about to prevent it to happen in the first place? Nothing at all.

Can they ignore the Quran's commands? No. That would be apostasy.

Here are a few of the many commands to terrorize the enemies of Allah

Quran 8:60
Yusuf Ali: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

Quran 8:12
"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

The word terror appears 21 times in the quran.

So would those Muslims deny Allah's commands in the Quran?

Muhammad: I have been made victorious by  Terror  (http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/T/terror.html)
Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)

I do not put too much value on what the mainstream media churns out.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 07:16:20 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2017/mar/26/muslims-condemn-terrorism-stats

The Guardian is an Islamophilic newspaper.

The article is written for gullible fools who desperately want to believe that what they think is true. Confirmation bias. Denying reality.

Those Muslims who condemn the terrorist have to really mean it? No, not at all.
Do they have an option to lie to the kuffar in the service of Islam? Absolutely. It is in the Quran and sharia.

The whole article is damage control.

So what are these Muslims who are condemning "terrorism" doing about to prevent it to happen in the first place? Nothing at all.

Can they ignore the Quran's commands? No. That would be apostasy.

Here are a few of the many commands to terrorize the enemies of Allah (snipped)

All religions have a same general view of apostasy.    Ask some christians about biblical inerrancy...

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 07:27:48 AM
All religions have a same general view of apostasy.    Ask some christians about biblical inerrancy...

Do Christians still murder their apostates?
Have you ever been threatened with death for being an atheist?
Please stop the moral equilency.

It is wrong to equate all religions are the same. It is an ignorant, false statement.
Jains, Buddhist for example are different from Islam.

Islam is a unique belief system like no other.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 07:33:11 AM
Do Christians still murder their apostates?
Have you ever been threatened with death for being an atheist?
Please stop the moral equilency.

Yes.  And yes.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 07:42:54 AM
Yes.  And yes.

Forgive me for not taking your response seriously.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 07:46:19 AM
Forgive me for not taking your response seriously.

:Do Christians still murder their apostates?
Have you ever been threatened with death for being an atheist?
Please stop the moral equilency."

Anti-abortionists have killed people because of religious reasons.  In modern times, KKK have killed other christians of minority groups.  In other parts of the world, catholics still kill protestants.  In Africa, some variants of christianity kill others of slightly different views. 

And yes, I have received a couple of death threats for expressing atheist views.  I dismissed them as crazies, but there was a short time I opened my mailbox with a long stick. 

You forgot to mention the Crusades, the inqusition, and witch burning.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 08:09:53 AM
You forgot to mention the Crusades, the inqusition, and witch burning.

I didn't forget.  You asked "Do Christians STILL [my caps] murder their apostates?"  Those events are not "still".  But I WILL say some would happily return us to those times if they could.

QuoteBut I WILL say some would happily return us to those times if they could.

I respectfully disagree.

What holds them back? You will probably say "the law".
Why "the law" doesn't work with Muslims?

Having said that, Christianity in the west is in decline. Islam is in the ascendancy.
Do you know why it is so?

Islam is immensely focused, determined and ready to kill and die for their ideology.
The (perceived) rewards are world domination or failing that in battle, eternal celestial brothel from Allah.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 08:45:25 AM
I respectfully disagree.

What holds them back? You will probably say "the law".
Why "the law" doesn't work with Muslims?

Having said that, Christianity in the west is in decline. Islam is in the ascendancy.
Do you know why it is so?

Well, first, it is a newer religion.  Christians were as brutal a few centuries ago as moslems are today.  And the christians started more peaceably.

Second, Islam originated in a harsher part of the world.

Third, moslems are more like the early jews who basically organized themselves and then butchered their way into a homeland.

Fourth, christianity only succeeded in  civilized and organized society.  The jews and moslems had neither at their start.

Fifth, the moslems are STILL not in much of an organized society.

Think of the Hindu "assasins'.  Are they still around today? 

Its simply a case that as society has evolved and grown in western countries, where Christianity has the most numbers, it as an entity has evolved to, mellowing out and adapting with the law of the land as that grew with the culture.

Christians today don't have the desire to cause death to those they considered no part of their culture, save maybe small pockets or individuals, they simply stick to their churches and christian themed tv channels and websites, where as those following islam directly coming from the middle east haven't yet.

i would say those of a middle eastern background who live in the west and don't adhere to their home countries theocracy are those that fit into the western culture, where as those wanting to bring islam with them don't adapt so well, some not at all. 

The west has already evolved to a point beyond theocracy, so when another one is trying to force its way into this modern culture, we get bombings in cities like london and paris, and roaming gangs of islamic followers in the streets of these cities attacking those born here.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 08:57:44 AM
Well, first, it is a newer religion.  Christians were as brutal a few centuries ago as moslems are today.  And the christians started more peaceably.

Second, Islam originated in a harsher part of the world.

Third, moslems are more like the early jews who basically organized themselves and then butchered their way into a homeland.

Fourth, christianity only succeeded in  civilized and organized society.  The jews and moslems had neither at their start.

Fifth, the moslems are STILL not in much of an organized society.

Think of the Hindu "assasins'.  Are they still around today? 

Assassins (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Assassins) were not Hindu.
You may be mistaking them to  Thuggee (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Thuggee)

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 09:02:12 AM
Assassins (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Assassins) were not Hindu.
You may be mistaking them to  Thuggee (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Thuggee)

My apologies.  The Assassins were most associated with India in my understanding, and I primarily thought of them as from there.  They were both moslem AND hindu.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 09:17:43 AM
My apologies.  The Assassins were most associated with India in my understanding, and I primarily thought of them as from there.  They were both moslem AND hindu.

Did you know that Muslims have butchered 80 million Hindus?

Tears of Jihad (Political Islam) (https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/)

QuoteHindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”
80 million Hindus

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 09:19:04 AM
Did you know that Muslims have butchered 80 million Hindus?

Tears of Jihad (Political Islam) (https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/)

And probably about the same of moslems by hindus.  They've both been crazy for many centuries killing each other left and right. 

What is it with you, a competition? 

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 09:27:48 AM
And probably about the same of moslems by hindus.  They've both been crazy for many centuries killing each other left and right. 

What is it with you, a competition? 

No. Just trying to demonstrate that not all religions are equal.
Some are worse than others.
There are 57 Islamic states. There is no democracy or human rights in any of them.
Islam does not allow it.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 09:36:04 AM
No. Just trying to demonstrate that not all religions are equal.
Some are worse than others.
There are 57 Islamic states. There is no democracy or human rights in any of them.
Islam does not allow it.

That is generally true, but not entirely germane to the point.  You seem more angry toward a particular religion than against them all in principle.

That is what we call an "angry atheist".  I've seen it many times before.  They come into and leave "atheism".  They become angry at "God" or some particular religion, not realizing they still believe in a deity.  Then they find a new one and happily march to the new music as "former atheists".  THe media eats it up. 

It is sad but I understand how it happens.  Gives "real atheists" bad ops though.

I have been an atheist for 74 years now. Unlikely that I will change.

I cannot be angry at "God" because there is no god except what people imagine to be.
Allah is no more than Muhammad's alter ego.

Why am I singling out one religion in particular? Good question.
That is because I have studied that religion extensively and found it to be the worst, evilest ideology ever created by any human.

Created by the 7th century demented Arab, and now has nearly 2 billion people who are hellbent to subjugate everyone else by any means necessary.

Do not underestimate them.

Yes, I know that the popular belief among non-Muslims is that the vast majority is moderate and peaceful. That is a wishful thinking. Not reality.

And they are irrelevant. They do not control Islam. They have no say at all.
The ulema (clergy) controls Islam.

Edit:
There were many evil people in the world in the past. Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, and many more who killed millions.
Nobody is killing for Genghis Kahn or the other tyrants anymore.
But Muhammad created a religion of war and hatred of the "other".

That is why the followers of Muhammad are so dangerous to all humanity.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 12:09:32 PM
I have been an atheist for 74 years now. Unlikely that I will change.

I cannot be angry at "God" because there is no god except what people imagine to be.
Allah is no more than Muhammad's alter ego.

Why am I singling out one religion in particular? Good question.
That is because I have studied that religion extensively and found it to be the worst, evilest ideology ever created by any human.

Created by the 7th century demented Arab, and now has nearly 2 billion people who are hellbent to subjugate everyone else by any means necessary.

Do not underestimate them.

Yes, I know that the popular belief among non-Muslims is that the vast majority is moderate and peaceful. That is a wishful thinking. Not reality.

And they are irrelevant. They do not control Islam. They have no say at all.
The ulema (clergy) controls Islam.

Edit:
There were many evil people in the world in the past. Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, and many more who killed millions.
Nobody is killing for Genghis Kahn or the other tyrants anymore.
But Muhammad created a religion of war and hatred of the "other".

That is why the followers of Muhammad are so dangerous to all humanity.

Man, you're stone-cold.  Intellectually, I disagree.  All religions' adherents have to be equally nuts.  But when push come to shove, those moslems are the nutiest...  LOL!

Animal Farm paraphrase:  All religions are crazy, but some are more crazy than others...

It's hard trying to stay "reasonable" sometimes...

There is no "golden rule" in Islam. No live and let live. No compromise. No empathy.
The world is divided into believers and unbelievers. Dar al Islam versus dar al harb.
A zero-sum game where there is only winners or losers.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 12:52:36 PM
There is no "golden rule" in Islam. No live and let live. No compromise. No empathy.
The world is divided into believers and unbelievers. Dar al Islam versus dar al harb.
A zero-sum game where there is only winners or losers.

Christianity is a lot like that.  And most of the koran is the jewish texts and christian bible with some fanaticism thrown in.

I think you underestimate the textual inanity of the jews and christians.

QuoteAnd most of the koran is the jewish texts and christian bible with some fanaticism thrown in.

I have explained in one of my posts why is this so.
How Muhammad plagiarised from the Jewish and Christian texts.
Because he wanted to recruit the Jews and Christians to his new religion, claiming to be their new prophet.
They refused, and ever since they became mortal enemies of Islam.

Quran 5:51

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 01:30:25 PM
I have explained in one of my posts why is this so.
How Muhammad plagiarised from the Jewish and Christian texts.
Because he wanted to recruit the Jews and Christians to his new religion, claiming to be their new prophet.
They refused, and ever since they became mortal enemies of Islam.

Quran 5:51

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

It is nearly impossible to research or compare any religious texts these days.  The internet is utterly drowned in trivial debates of the differences among adherents.  Strange as it may seem, I recall a time when you could actually find sites accurately discussing the evolution and origins of each.  *sigh*

You are right, of course. One must know which sites are reliable.
But those sites are "hate sites", declared as lies, misinformation.
Also, Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.
Where religion or politics involved, one must be sceptical of the veracity of the articles.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 01:30:25 PM
I have explained in one of my posts why is this so.
How Muhammad plagiarised from the Jewish and Christian texts.
Because he wanted to recruit the Jews and Christians to his new religion, claiming to be their new prophet.
They refused, and ever since they became mortal enemies of Islam.

Quran 5:51

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Martin Luther developed German anti-semitism for the same reasons.  Luther thought he was the second Coming, the German Christ .. and this requires the Jews to convert to Lutheranism ... and we refused.  Thus the German utopia was put off for a few more centuries!

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 01:46:59 PM
It is nearly impossible to research or compare any religious texts these days.  The internet is utterly drowned in trivial debates of the differences among adherents.  Strange as it may seem, I recall a time when you could actually find sites accurately discussing the evolution and origins of each.  *sigh*

Google Search, and even YouTube Search, are uncritical, just as unintelligent as the AI that Google uses.  Originally Yahoo had actual scholars organizing things, but it grew out of control, this weed, this Internet.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 01:55:00 PM
You are right, of course. One must know which sites are reliable.
But those sites are "hate sites", declared as lies, misinformation.
Also, Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.
Where religion or politics involved, one must be sceptical of the veracity of the articles.

Having to be your own skeptic and scholar, what is not to like?  Why be a passive fake news consumer as we have always been in the past.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 06:15:04 AM
I won't deny (and in fact have positively condemned) all religious atrocities.  But you ignore the Islamic ones.

Right, it is all Christianity's fault, in 1500 CE in the New World, that Muslims are dicks in 700 CE in the old world.  The Spanish/Portuguese learned how to be dicks, from the Muslims in the prior 800 years of Muslim occupation.  Thanks to Columbus, they had a new geographic objective, otherwise, the Muslims would have been slaughtered all the way back to Mecca ... not that I would like that of course.  But think of it from the Spanish/Portuguese POV ... the Muslims were at the same technical level as the Spanish/Portuguese ... vs the Native Americans who were mostly in the Stone Age.  Not hard to choose.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 09:19:04 AM
Did you know that Muslims have butchered 80 million Hindus?

Tears of Jihad (Political Islam) (https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/)

A bit confusing ... there were multiple predators in the Hindu Kush from 400-1200 CE.  Originally the natives were Buddhist in 400 CE.  Pacifists.  Easy to kill, by White Huns (pagans) and Arabs (muslims) and Turks (muslims again).  If Genghis Khan had gone south thru the Khyber Pass, instead to west toward Egypt (under his descendants) .. no Hindu would have been left alive, because they would all think they would reincarnate into a better India.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 08:57:44 AM
Well, first, it is a newer religion.  Christians were as brutal a few centuries ago as moslems are today.  And the christians started more peaceably.

Second, Islam originated in a harsher part of the world.

Third, moslems are more like the early jews who basically organized themselves and then butchered their way into a homeland.

Fourth, christianity only succeeded in  civilized and organized society.  The jews and moslems had neither at their start.

Fifth, the moslems are STILL not in much of an organized society.

Think of the Hindu "assasins'.  Are they still around today?

Assassins were Shia Muslim.  You are thinking of Thugee worshippers of the Goddess Kali.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 01, 2017, 09:17:43 AM
My apologies.  The Assassins were most associated with India in my understanding, and I primarily thought of them as from there.  They were both moslem AND hindu.

No, they were mostly Persians.  Not Indians at all.  Thugs were Hindu and Indian.  The center of the Assassins was in N Persia.  Only the Mongols managed to terminate them ... though they live again thru Al Qaida and Isis.

Quote from: pr126 on October 01, 2017, 12:52:36 PM
There is no "golden rule" in Islam. No live and let live. No compromise. No empathy.
The world is divided into believers and unbelievers. Dar al Islam versus dar al harb.
A zero-sum game where there is only winners or losers.

That is just business.  In the end, everyone ends up as a bitch on Prison Planet ... as a play thing for the Plutocracy.  This is the truth behind the Caliphate.  Dancing girls and dancing boys  and wine ... there is a whole apologetic in Islam to explain this disconnect with the Quran.

Quote from: Baruch on October 01, 2017, 04:06:06 PM
That is just business.  In the end, everyone ends up as a bitch on Prison Planet ... as a play thing for the Plutocracy.  This is the truth behind the Caliphate.  Dancing girls and dancing boys  and wine ... there is a whole apologetic in Islam to explain this disconnect with the Quran.

Sometimes you make less sense than I think you might, and that is little.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 01:39:21 AM
Sometimes you make less sense than I think you might, and that is little.

So are you defending the degenerate caliphate in Baghdad 1000 years ago, or the one in Washington DC, now?

Quote from: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 07:22:06 AM
So are you defending the degenerate caliphate in Baghdad 1000 years ago, or the one in Washington DC, now?

I do not defend the Baghdad caliphate, of course.  The idea is absurd.  And are you suggesting there is a US caliphate now?  That is equally absurd.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 04, 2017, 07:45:05 AM
I do not defend the Baghdad caliphate, of course.  The idea is absurd.  And are you suggesting there is a US caliphate now?  That is equally absurd.

The US is an evil cess-pool of plutocracy.  What is not to like, Effendi?

Quote from: Baruch on October 04, 2017, 09:54:39 PM
The US is an evil cess-pool of plutocracy.  What is not to like, Effendi?

Your reply is not related the post you are replying to.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 02:44:54 AM
Your reply is not related the post you are replying to.

You were replying as a representative of the Western version of "America conquers the planet" ... while the degenerates of all parties party on the Potomac.  It is like the scene in Daniel, where the King of Babylon gets a message from on High.

Quote from: Baruch on October 08, 2017, 05:49:50 PM
You were replying as a representative of the Western version of "America conquers the planet" ... while the degenerates of all parties party on the Potomac.  It is like the scene in Daniel, where the King of Babylon gets a message from on High.

Your claim could stand some supporting information.  And there is a difference between the post WWII Pax Americana and "America Conquers The Planet".  Last I checked, we weren't exactly doing the latter.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 10:13:20 PM
Your claim could stand some supporting information.  And there is a difference between the post WWII Pax Americana and "America Conquers The Planet".  Last I checked, we weren't exactly doing the latter.

Babylon didn't conquer the entire planet ... but they were shit lords.  The Caliphate didn't conquer the entire planet ... but they were shit lords.  Insert evil empire of your choice, including the Anglo-American one ... didn't conquer the entire planet ... but are still shit lords.

Quote from: Baruch on October 08, 2017, 10:34:04 PM
Babylon didn't conquer the entire planet ... but they were shit lords.  The Caliphate didn't conquer the entire planet ... but they were shit lords.  Insert evil empire of your choice, including the Anglo-American one ... didn't conquer the entire planet ... but are still shit lords.

So the US is a "shit-lord"?  Ask Japan, Germany and Italy how we treated them after WWII.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 08, 2017, 10:49:53 PM
So the US is a "shit-lord"?  Ask Japan, Germany and Italy how we treated them after WWII.

Our shit smells better than their shit.  Don't virtue signal over Hiroshima/Nagasaki or ... Tokyo, Hamburg, Dresden ...

Do you really think that the Japanese etc are a different species, that you and I aren't just like them, that given the circumstances, we wouldn't kill millions of innocent people?

Quote from: Baruch on October 09, 2017, 10:42:24 AM
Our shit smells better than their shit.  Don't virtue signal over Hiroshima/Nagasaki or ... Tokyo, Hamburg, Dresden ...

Do you really think that the Japanese etc are a different species, that you and I aren't just like them, that given the circumstances, we wouldn't kill millions of innocent people?

I don't think the Japanese were "a differerent species".  I have consistently stated that all humans are the same Homo Sapiens.

War is all Hell.  If an aggressor nation will not surrender, do you just stop and let them win? 

Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 01:23:51 AM
I don't think the Japanese were "a differerent species".  I have consistently stated that all humans are the same Homo Sapiens.

War is all Hell.  If an aggressor nation will not surrender, do you just stop and let them win?

We aren't in disagreement, but your response missed the point.  We are also an aggressor nation, particularly since 1991.

Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 07:28:30 AM
We aren't in disagreement, but your response missed the point.  We are also an aggressor nation, particularly since 1991.

You elided the question, and that does not reflect well on you.

You said "Do you really think that the Japanese etc are a different species".  I said I didn't.  You said " I missed the point/".  Really?  I said it explicitly.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 11, 2017, 11:30:49 AM
You elided the question, and that does not reflect well on you.

You said "Do you really think that the Japanese etc are a different species".  I said I didn't.  You said " I missed the point/".  Really?  I said it explicitly.

I understood you.  But you misread me, and that is as it should be, apparently.

Quote from: Baruch on October 11, 2017, 08:46:26 PM
I understood you.  But you misread me, and that is as it should be, apparently.

And how did I misread you?

Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 01:53:04 AM
And how did I misread you?

Your POV ... as long as it is Americans (of all colors) killing foreigners (of all colors) then it isn't prejudice, just business as usual.  Except for all those foreigners we keep killing.  The American POV is just as prejudiced as any German ... most of us are part German, after all.

Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 07:30:47 AM
Your POV ... as long as it is Americans (of all colors) killing foreigners (of all colors) then it isn't prejudice, just business as usual.  Except for all those foreigners we keep killing.  The American POV is just as prejudiced as any German ... most of us are part German, after all.

Oddly enough, I am waiting for test results from Ancestry to see how German (or English or French) I am.  And given that my ancestors have been in North America several centuries, how much Native American Indian I am.  I might get quite a surprise.  Or not.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 07:36:00 AM
Oddly enough, I am waiting for test results from Ancestry to see how German (or English or French) I am.  And given that my ancestors have been in North America several centuries, how much Native American Indian I am.  I might get quite a surprise.  Or not.

The genetic mapping services usually group the Germans with the French ... sacre blu!

Quote from: Baruch on October 18, 2017, 07:37:41 AM
The genetic mapping services usually group the Germans with the French ... sacre blu!

Well, the modern national borders don't have a whole lot to do with the genetic ones.  The southern French are sort of Italian, the western French are sort of Spanish, and the Northern French are sort of German.  Of course, that means all those other people are sort of French.

I understand why because the Visigoths, the Franks and the Vandals weren't paying attention to current national borders before  they were established (how could they) .  And the Italians aren't Romans.  In fact no one is who they were 1,000 years ago  But I'm sure you know all that.  (coff,coff) 

Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 07:45:11 AM
Well, the modern national borders don't have a whole lot to do with the genetic ones.  The southern French are sort of Italian, the western French are sort of Spanish, and the Northern French are sort of German.  Of course, that means all those other people are sort of French.

I understand why because the Visigoths, the Franks and the Vandals weren't paying attention to current national borders before  they were established (how could they) .  And the Italians aren't Romans.  In fact no one is who they were 1,000 years ago  But I'm sure you know all that.  (coff,coff)

Take something for that cold, it might be catching.

Quote from: Cavebear on October 18, 2017, 07:45:11 AM
Well, the modern national borders don't have a whole lot to do with the genetic ones.  The southern French are sort of Italian, the western French are sort of Spanish, and the Northern French are sort of German.  Of course, that means all those other people are sort of French.

I understand why because the Visigoths, the Franks and the Vandals weren't paying attention to current national borders before  they were established (how could they) .  And the Italians aren't Romans.  In fact no one is who they were 1,000 years ago  But I'm sure you know all that.  (coff,coff) 

Except for (wait for it...) the Mongols. They are always the exception.

(Actually quite a few exceptions, but not many in Europe. The Scots/Irish are first to come to mind, then possibly the Bulgarians and Croats...)

Quote from: Shiranu on October 18, 2017, 08:31:09 PM
Except for (wait for it...) the Mongols. They are always the exception.

(Actually quite a few exceptions, but not many in Europe. The Scots/Irish are first to come to mind, then possibly the Bulgarians and Croats...)

The Irish are the Celts the Goths drove off the mainland, the Welsh may be the last of the Picts, the Scots (Scotti) were a people driven West by the Romans.  The Franks settled in what is now France, The Visigoths settled in Spain, and the Vandals are the ancestors of modern Italians.  The only modern day "Romans" might be the Sicilians, but I'm not sure.