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One interesting thing, didn't realise how much of this was because of the states putting pressure on Trump to get rid of it. Completely and utterly ashamed of myself to see that my representative, even if I didn't vote for him, was actively pushing for this to happen and that the majority voted for this guy knowing it's part of his ideology.

And unfortunate and cruel decision, right up Republican alley.  Except they don't enforce the law ... on upperclass White folks ;-)

And I hate the Democrats, for exploiting the poor and downtrodden ... for votes.  They don't love those ... they love the same bankers the Republicans do.  Just ask Hillary and Goldman-Sachs.

If you grow up in the US and know no other country or culture or language, it is simply to cruel to force you out to a place you know nothing about.  Imagine yourself deported to Thailand, for example.  No money, no job. No concept of the culture.  How would you survive? 

Give them a bus ticket home - just the ones dragged here by their law breaking parent(s).  One year to apply for the bus ticket and no penalty for being in the usa illegally. 

The application for the bus ticket could include any substantial usa activities; proof of h.s. graduation, college etc for use in the application for immigration - which could be weighted on legitimate attempt to immigrate. 

There should not be any amnesty for illegals.  Sorry but I have worked with both legal and illegals.  I know how hard the legals worked to get here and I know of the illegals I have talked to about their journey, not ONE tried to do it legally.  All of the illegals claimed it was the expense.  Bullshit.  I have worked with legal immigrants who waited in/born in refugee camps, with 2 family members making it over, saving money to get the rest of the family here.  You think they didnt face dangers in their families journey?   But they managed to do it legally.

Africans with the same story, minus the refuge camps.  Getting one family member over and going through the legitimate process to bring over the rest.  War torn countries.  Sierra Leon, Kenya, Somalia, Liberia, Cameroon, Ethiopia...  Anyone think these are 'rich' immigrants?  They worked hard to do it the right way.

BTW, all of these illegals I have talked to have families back in mex/s.america.  These video 'kids' are not orphans with no families to lean on until they complete the process.  Its the message that needs to be sent.  Immigration has rules that you must follow to be allowed into the USA, just like all these named countries have rules I must follow if I wanted to immigrate there.

Quote from: Cavebear on September 14, 2017, 03:24:29 AM
If you grow up in the US and know no other country or culture or language, it is simply to cruel to force you out to a place you know nothing about.  Imagine yourself deported to Thailand, for example.  No money, no job. No concept of the culture.  How would you survive?

There was a movie about that ... some smug upper class White male, woke up in a foreign country with no money and not speaking the language.  We should all do that, then we would know the meaning of humility, and never speak of 3rd world again, as if the unclean masses might get our bourgeois existence dirty.  I would love to see every entitled asshole end up in prison as a girlfriend ... serves them right.

QuoteThere should not be any amnesty for illegals.

When even the mainline republican party isn't as illogical or heartless as you, I think it's time to take a good, long hard look at your position...

Quote from: Shiranu on September 14, 2017, 08:19:09 PM
When even the mainline republican party isn't as illogical or heartless as you, I think it's time to take a good, long hard look at your position...

I don't think he realizes that everyone, not Native American, is an illegal ;-(

Quote from: Shiranu on September 14, 2017, 08:19:09 PM
When even the mainline republican party isn't as illogical or heartless as you, I think it's time to take a good, long hard look at your position...

Just more of your simplistic world view.  If anyone does not agree with you, its illogical.... You are like a poorly trained parrot. Squaaking all day long without any new thoughts.  Must rely on others ideas...

Heartless?  The law (not obamas circumvent of the proper way to implement immigration law changes) right now puts anyone 19 or older as an illegal without the benefit of No Penalty for legal immigration.  IIRC, that means return to country of origin and a three year wait to apply for immigration.  I also am willing to accept various USA obtained inputs and a weighted system to reduce the wait to return legally.

And its way too easy for you to ignore the millions and millions of immigrants who did it the RIGHT way, proving there are open borders in the usa, for those who are willing to put in the effort.  But you are a coward and a sock puppet who is soo convinced of your own 'superiority' that you believe yourself to be benevolent, rather than callous towards those who are more honest than yourself.

More virtue signalling, without real virtue.  You are assuming any of these laws are valid, instead of just a sick joke by the Elite.

It's not illogical because you disagree, it is illogical because you are saying we should forfeit an overwhelming large net gain because it's the law. That is illogical. Rather than uphold the quo just because it's the quo, uphold it because it does the most good for the most people or oppose it because it doesn't.

The overwhelming majority of immigrants, and particularly DREAMers, are both hard-working, productive citizens as well as tax paying, law abiding people. When you look at the statistics for DACA recipients, they are near the top of any group in America in regards to education and productivity, and they did that in constant fear. To say we need to get rid of these people because their parents brought them here illegally is simply illogical, there is no other way to word that. It's not about agreeing with me... we could see differently on how to make them citizens, for example... but to tell people that absolutely busted their asses off since they were children because they want to be one of us that they don't deserve to live in the only place they have ever called home is simply, again, illogical and shooting yourself in the foot.

I think the current system is at its core heartless. I realise the need for vetting people coming into this country, but the problem is that the number of people who can legally come into the country per year is pathetically small when compared to the number of good people who apply for citizenship. That leaves two options; either we have to get our immigration policies reformed and vastly expand our resources to better deal with the numbers, or accept that they will come here illegally and work to accommodate their transition from illegal immigrant to law abiding, tax paying citizen. But to turn hard working people away is simply not an acceptable solution if we wish to remain competitive in a global economy.

My ancestors came here illegally; since then, we have been business owners, officers in the military during WW2, Korea, Vietnam and desert storm. We haven't murdered anyone, raped anyone, brought in drugs and prostitutes...we simply lived simple lives and served our country even when it wanted to turn it's back on us. So when you say they should be deported, you are saying that my family, that was awarded the silver star at the battle of the bulge, who were exposed to chemical weapons in Iraq, who fought the communists in Vietnam and Korea, who worked as bomb diffusers for elite teams in Colombia and the middle east, who ran successful small businesses and paid more than their fair share of taxes, should have never had these opportunities to serve their country with distinction because their parents came here illegally and should have been deported... It's just simply ridiculous. Honestly, I really don't think you have actually thought your position through because at the end of the day nearly all Americans are either illegal or came here when there were no formal laws restricting immigration. To act like illegal immigration is an issue now is to completely ignore the majority of American history, to ignore what made us one of the greatest and most diverse nations on earth. So again, it is by it's very nature an illogical and also hypocritical position to take.

Where exactly am I ignoring the millions of legal immigrants? I think that's great they got here legally. But what you are telling me to do is therefore ignore the millions of people who dropped literally everything they had, who left for a land they don't know, with a language they don't speak, because they were desperate enough to do so. It's sheer ignorance to believe that these people who came here illegally choose to live in constant fear on a whim. Do you think people would choose to live here illegally, risking everything, if they didn't think they had a better choice? Do you think the millions who came here illegally from counties racked with violence and corruption (often of our own creation) could just, "wait till they could get here legally?". You want to talk about ignoring people, why then do you ignore those who are struggling, who are in constant fear, and tell them they are horrible people who deserve to lose their life, again, and be sent back to where they left everything they had for the dream of a better life. That is simply heartless.

You seem so opposed to my "simple" ideas, but simple is how life should be. Simple implies that you have enough of a grasp on a situation to not have to make it more complicated than it really is. You want to talk all of this talk about how ignorant I am when I spent my entire life surrounded by illegals (South Texas, New Mexico) and being a descendant of some myself, yet it is you who chooses to be willfully ignorant and heartless because the law tells you to. If those are my two options, then I'll choose the side of simplicity any day.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 15, 2017, 02:24:17 AM
The overwhelming majority of immigrants, and particularly DREAMers, are both hard-working, productive citizens as well as tax paying, law abiding people. When you look at the statistics for DACA recipients, they are near the top of any group in America in regards to education and productivity, and they did that in constant fear. To say we need to get rid of these people because their parents brought them here illegally is simply illogical, there is no other way to word that.

Link(s) please.

It is not 'illogical' to apply the laws to people who circumvented the rules to achieve their personal goals.  They are attempting to 'steal' an immigration slot they are not entitled to.  There are methods to put themselves back on the equal footing the global immigrants are on, but that is the thorn in their sides.  They don't want equal,  they want to be treated as special, via their parents poor choices.

Quote from: Shiranu
I realise the need for vetting people coming into this country, but the problem is that the number of people who can legally come into the country per year is pathetically small when compared to the number of good people who apply for citizenship.

The USA is (iirc) the 3rd most populated country in the world. At least in the top 5. There are very good reasons for having a limit on the numbers of people allowed into a country, not the least of which is the ability of the usa to provide the best opportunity for those who do arrive on these shores legally.  There are needs of these legal immigrants that have to be accommodated, which fall on the backs of the tax-payers themselves, legally here.  These are finite resources.

Quote from: Shiranu
My ancestors came here illegally; since then, we have been business owners, officers in the military during WW2, Korea, Vietnam and desert storm. We haven't murdered anyone, raped anyone, brought in drugs and prostitutes...we simply lived simple lives and served our country even when it wanted to turn it's back on us. So when you say they should be deported, you are saying that my family, that was awarded the silver star at the battle of the bulge, who were exposed to chemical weapons in Iraq, who fought the communists in Vietnam and Korea, who worked as bomb diffusers for elite teams in Colombia and the middle east, who ran successful small businesses and paid more than their fair share of taxes, should have never had these opportunities to serve their country with distinction because their parents came here illegally and should have been deported... It's just simply ridiculous.

Says you,  but you have a reason for your bias.  Its selfish to extrapolate your current status, with these (assumed) dead persons.  What your ancestors did was selfish or ignorant, unsure of which, but they should have been held to the same rules.  They got by with it, but that does not change the existing issue and laws regarding immigration.

Quote from: ShiranuHonestly, I really don't think you have actually thought your position through because at the end of the day nearly all Americans are either illegal or came here when there were no formal laws restricting immigration. To act like illegal immigration is an issue now is to completely ignore the majority of American history, to ignore what made us one of the greatest and most diverse nations on earth. So again, it is by it's very nature an illogical and also hypocritical position to take.

Well, thats your opinion not based on the facts.  The first immigration laws were written shortly after the USA became an independent nation.  Of the family history traced back, or so current it was a living memory when I was born, my family immigrated here legally.  All of them, some parts separated by many, many years, others by less than a generation.

Quote from: ShiranuWhere exactly am I ignoring the millions of legal immigrants? I think that's great they got here legally. But what you are telling me to do is therefore ignore the millions of people who dropped literally everything they had, who left for a land they don't know, with a language they don't speak, because they were desperate enough to do so.

Appeal to emotion.  You cannot speak for the motives of millions and ignore the majority were looking for money.  That is the constant theme.  I wanted to make money.  Not unlike the gold rush, rather it is the green rush.  And that impacts each and every legal immigrant who followed the rules, who didnt stand around Home Depot [example] looking for day jobs, impacted each legal citizen who created student debt to get an education in [for example] horticulture because they wanted to work outdoors.

There is only one way to curb illegal immigration and that is to ensure illegals will not benefit from their sneaking into the usa. 

Justice without mercy?  That isn't worth doing.

Quote from: chill98 on September 15, 2017, 09:46:58 AM

There is only one way to curb illegal immigration and that is to ensure illegals will not benefit from their sneaking into the usa.

But that would mean having stricter immigration laws instead of an open door policy. Oh noooo :(

QuoteLink(s) please.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?mcubz=0 (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?mcubz=0)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say/ (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say/)

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states? (https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states?)
utm_content=buffercf974&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/)

http://www.businessinsider.com/immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-native-born-americans-trump-speech-2017-3 (http://www.businessinsider.com/immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-native-born-americans-trump-speech-2017-3)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798)

QuoteThe USA is (iirc) the 3rd most populated country in the world. At least in the top 5. There are very good reasons for having a limit on the numbers of people allowed into a country, not the least of which is the ability of the usa to provide the best opportunity for those who do arrive on these shores legally.  There are needs of these legal immigrants that have to be accommodated, which fall on the backs of the tax-payers themselves, legally here.  These are finite resources.

Illegal and legal immigrants aren't usually competing for jobs, though. One overwhelmingly joins the labour force, which we drastically need more people for, and the other joins more "educated" jobs, which we drastically need more people for.

There are finite resources, but we are no where near that point.

QuoteSays you,  but you have a reason for your bias.  Its selfish to extrapolate your current status, with these (assumed) dead persons.  What your ancestors did was selfish or ignorant, unsure of which, but they should have been held to the same rules.  They got by with it, but that does not change the existing issue and laws regarding immigration.

Right. It was selfish when they had to change their last name and stop speaking their native tongue at home because everyone was afraid of Germans and they wanted to be American more than they wanted to be German. It was selfish when their children went to Germany to fight their own countrymen, when they received a silver star for charging a Nazi gun nest strapped with grenades to save their squad, when they were fire bombing German cities and doing missions over Berlin. It was selfish when they served as officer in Korea and Vietnam to "stop the spread of Communism".  It was selfish when they ran their gas station and convenience shop and paid their taxes, did excellent work, and paid their taxes. It was selfish that they never taught their children how to speak German or Spanish, because they were American and Americans spoke English at home.

Give me a break, man. My family paid for the right to be here with their blood, sweat and tears and so to do the majority of immigrants who move here today. You're entire argument basically comes down to, "Follow the law because it's the law!", but would you sing the same song if the law was to burn all books the state disagrees with? To denounce science because politicians disagree with it? Would you still be singing the same tune about people who hid the books, who secretly taught science at school? Likely not, because that is both logically and emotionally stupid. Yet when it's about a group that doesn't effect you directly, suddenly that argument becomes more compelling.

Nah, fuck that. Don't even come in here talking to me about selfish when that's all your entire argument is.

QuoteWell, thats your opinion not based on the facts.  The first immigration laws were written shortly after the USA became an independent nation.  Of the family history traced back, or so current it was a living memory when I was born, my family immigrated here legally.  All of them, some parts separated by many, many years, others by less than a generation.

Big fucking whoop. All you have proved is both legal and illegal immigrants work hard. I never disagreed with that, infact I completely agree with it which is why we need to vastly expand our immigration policy so that all immigrants who want to contribute have a quick and fair chance of doing so.

QuoteAppeal to emotion.

Yes, it is. Because law based only on "logic" is fucking terrible. That's how we got eugenics here in the states. That's how we justified keeping women in the kitchen. That's how we justified segregation. Basically every non-religious law we have had has been justified on pure logic.

The law should be about protecting and helping people, and that requires emotion. That requires love and compassion. So any consideration of the law must therefor include emotion in it as well as logic. 

QuoteBut that would mean having stricter immigration laws instead of an open door policy. Oh noooo :(

America doesn't have an open door policy on immigration, our immigration laws are extremely strict compared to most countries, with only 4 countries being considered stricter than us (3 in Europe [Austria, Germany, Switzerland] and then Japan) And of those European ones, they are very open to immigrants coming from rough situations, far more so than America.

For once, please wait to talk about American culture until you have actually learned about it.

Again, to summarize.

--->"Illegal immigrants are wrong because they broke the law coming here."
--->"Despite statistics that they are less violent and pay their fair share of taxes, they should have their livelyhood and life as they know it stripped from them because they broke the law."
--->"The law is the law is the law."

Now use that exact same argument to justify book burning. Use it to justify not teaching climate change in school. Look at it having been historically used to justify eugenics. Look at it's historical use of saying sure, segregation is bad, but it's better than the alternative. Look at that argument being used to justify continuing the war on drugs rather than addressing it in a logical manner.

I'm sorry, but the argument you have chosen to back has historically, and remains to this day, an extremely flimsy argument at best and at worse has been used to justify some of the absolute worst behaviour of Americans that even we now recognize as immoral and horrible. The fact that Munch is the one person that agrees with you here should tell you a lot about which side of the fence you are on... and it's not the humane or winning one.

The heartless had their chance to run America, and they have run it into the ground every time. The American people will only put up with this shit for so long before they turn on you and make sure your ideology has no place in the government, and that time is getting closer and closer when even mainline Democrats and Republicans are now agreeing that your immigration policies are barbaric and heartless.

Illegal immigration isn't the same as book burning and teaching ridiculous religious concepts in schools. Every country has rules for immigration for a reason. They need those rules in place to maintain a degree of order.

Your posts are starting to get to ibn lengths too, might wanna avoid that association.

QuoteIllegal immigration isn't the same as book burning and teaching ridiculous religious concepts in schools.

You're right; it's worse. This is people's lives we are talking about. This is talking about telling a family, "Alright, fuck you! You see your children? Yeah, fuck them, we are taking them from the only home they have ever known and shipping them off to a foreign country for your crimes!".

I guess the examples were a bit redundant; if that doesn't trigger a response, then I don't know why appealing to the "rational" side would change anything. That is so inherently shitty any sane human being should have a negative response to that view point.

QuoteEvery country has rules for immigration for a reason. They need those rules in place to maintain a degree of order.

Again, appealing to the law for the laws sake. The law is not infallible. We have a war on drugs for a reason, but that doesn't mean the war on drugs is a successful campaign. We had anti-LGBT laws for years for a reason, that doesn't mean anti-LGBT laws are acceptable. We had segregation for generations for a very specific, logical reason, but that doesn't make segregation acceptable.

QuoteYour posts are starting to get to ibn lengths too, might wanna avoid that association.

1/10, trying way too hard.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 15, 2017, 02:51:49 PM

Again, appealing to the law for the laws sake.

Quote1/10, trying way too hard.

It's like a where's Wally of self defeating quotes.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 15, 2017, 01:46:02 PM
Snipped Links

Here is the quote I asked you to respond with links:

Quote from: ShiranuThe overwhelming majority of immigrants, and particularly DREAMers, are both hard-working, productive citizens as well as tax paying, law abiding people. When you look at the statistics for DACA recipients, they are near the top of any group in America in regards to education and productivity, and they did that in constant fear.

None of your links addressed anything you claimed and were all regarding convictions/prison populations.  However here is one example from below link which shows legal vs dreamer vs nonDreamer eligible.



In each comparison of immigrants (native population is irrelevant for this conversation), the Dreamers are more likely than any immigrant population in this survey to become incarcerated.

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/dreamer-incarceration-rate

Quote from: Shiranu
Illegal and legal immigrants aren't usually competing for jobs, though. One overwhelmingly joins the labour force, which we drastically need more people for, and the other joins more "educated" jobs, which we drastically need more people for.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/662073?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Plenty of other articles on how immigrant populations negatively affect the African american job seekers.

Quote from: Shiranu
There are finite resources, but we are no where near that point.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/09/01/immigrant-welfare-use-report/71517072/

Quote from: Shiranu
Right. It was selfish when they had to change their last name and stop speaking their native tongue at home because everyone was afraid of Germans and they wanted to be American more than they wanted to be German. It was selfish when their children went to Germany to fight their own countrymen, when they received a silver star for charging a Nazi gun nest strapped with grenades to save their squad, when they were fire bombing German cities and doing missions over Berlin. It was selfish when they served as officer in Korea and Vietnam to "stop the spread of Communism".  It was selfish when they ran their gas station and convenience shop and paid their taxes, did excellent work, and paid their taxes. It was selfish that they never taught their children how to speak German or Spanish, because they were American and Americans spoke English at home.

Nope, it was selfish for them to illegally immigrate to the usa.  Rules are for everyone else.   Sorry pal, but some of my closest friends in school were children of German immigrants (both parents) whos father had actually fought in the german army (not a nazi party member).  They immigrated legally.  Why couldnt your family?  Let me guess, they didnt even try to do it the legal way...   And that is the whole point of the argument.  Its not about being anti-immigration.  Its about applying the law equally in regards to immigration. 

Quote from: ShiranuGive me a break, man. My family paid for the right to be here with their blood, sweat and tears and so to do the majority of immigrants who move here today. You're entire argument basically comes down to, "Follow the law because it's the law!", but would you sing the same song if the law was to burn all books the state disagrees with? To denounce science because politicians disagree with it? Would you still be singing the same tune about people who hid the books, who secretly taught science at school? Likely not, because that is both logically and emotionally stupid. Yet when it's about a group that doesn't effect you directly, suddenly that argument becomes more compelling.

Thereyagoagain....  cant get through any topic without resorting to maligning someone who disagrees with you. 

I am not stoopid you smarmy PoS.  Immigration to ANY country, whether it be USA, Canada, Australia, etc should be regarded as a privilege granted to the immigrant when they meet the criteria set forth in the law.  That is the topic, not your imaginations and deflections to unrelated topics as though it holds some kind of relevance to willful border jumping. 

Ship them all back to their country of origin and let them apply just like all those MILLIONS of people from all over the globe who valued the opportunity to become Citizens of the USA and wanted to everything RIGHT not expecting a Free Ride after hiding in the shadows.

Quote
America doesn't have an open door policy on immigration, our immigration laws are extremely strict compared to most countries, with only 4 countries being considered stricter than us (3 in Europe [Austria, Germany, Switzerland] and then Japan) And of those European ones, they are very open to immigrants coming from rough situations, far more so than America.

America doesnt have an open BORDER policy on immigration.  Almost anyone can apply for immigrant status.  Too bad the peoples we are discussing decided to skip that part and want all the rules changed to accommodate their selfish nature.  me Me MEEEE....

Quote from: Munch on September 15, 2017, 04:49:05 PM
It's like a where's Wally of self defeating quotes.

You're right, pointing out the flaw in your argument is basically the same as intentionally trolling.

0.5/10.

>Quotes Cato institute.

Lol. Okay.

You want to call people selfish, while ignoring the reality of what immigrants go through all for your sense of pride and belief that the law is the law is the law. "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

It is all water under the bridge. People who have half a heart will win at the end of the day, and your ideology will fall by the wayside... as has and had already begun before the last bastion of hold-out morons voted in Trump. Neither political parties' mainline supports your position, so have fun with that in 5-10 years when the current batch is recycled out and America slowly makes steps towards being a first-world country again.


Trump, Arpaio, Ken Paxton, Abott, et. al. is the height of your political influence. You're just a bitter little man with a sad little political viewpoint that, in a hundred years, will go in the history books like segregation, eugenics, anti-LGBT laws and slavery.  I hope you can find peace in that before you die, because I cant imagine the shame that must bring.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 15, 2017, 06:53:19 PM
"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

You spew bible quotes in response to an article with actual numbers rather than 'feelings' showing Dreamers are more likely to be incarcerated than other immigrants??? 

Quote from: Shiranu
People who have half a heart will win at the end of the day, and your ideology will fall by the wayside... as has and had already begun before the last bastion of hold-out morons voted in Trump. Neither political parties' mainline supports your position, so have fun with that in 5-10 years when the current batch is recycled out and America slowly makes steps towards being a first-world country again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/01/30/how-immigration-reform-failed-over-and-over/?utm_term=.4575f40789e4

It failed over and over because voters who dont participate in polls, quietly contacted their reps and voiced their actual opinion.  Overwhelmingly, most people support legal immigration not amnesty.  Most people wouldnt mind some reform of immigration but many have real issues with Amnesty. 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/opinions/clinton-illegal-immigration-froma-harrop/index.html

Most people have a sense of fairness, and providing amnesty for illegals actions grates against any sense of fairness IF you consider the efforts made to get here legally by millions and millions, from many dangerous places.  Additionally and for example, isnt the reality you would think I was a horrible parent if I smuggled my kid into mexico, via human smugglers, across arid climates, often without enough food and water in the dark of night in pursue of a job?  Many would call that child abuse and declare me an unfit mother for not considering the consequences for the child and the unnecessary risk I put on my kids well-being.  What future would he/she have, living outside the legal system, simply due to the choices I make for the kid? 

I am not expecting the illegals to be held to a lower standard like you do.  I am holding them to the same standard as everyone else.

Its not me that is a hypocrite Shiranu.  Its you. 

Quote from: Shiranu
Trump, Arpaio, Ken Paxton, Abott, et. al. is the height of your political influence. You're just a bitter little man with a sad little political viewpoint that, in a hundred years, will go in the history books like segregation, eugenics, anti-LGBT laws and slavery.  I hope you can find peace in that before you die, because I cant imagine the shame that must bring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ZJKjjBO4g

> implying I support Hillary

My God, you are stretching now.

If being right is that important to you, then I cede you are correct. You will still be on the wrong side of history and morality, but by all means you have my seal of approval. I know how valuable that is.

Just a tip though, the next time you try to convince someone of something, try not to make your opening words, and every paragraph that follows, be about how shitty and terrible their family, their friends, their neighbours are. Tends to make people a little less likely to hear you out.

Downvoted because fuck the Fine Bros.

Good video, though. Hopefully more of the big YouTubers start picking up on this issue.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 15, 2017, 10:35:44 PM
Downvoted because fuck the Fine Bros.

Good video, though. Hopefully more of the big YouTubers start picking up on this issue.

Fair enough. I still watch the channel, but I do feel dirty about it because... well, as you said, fuck the Fine Bros.

People who love the law, shouldn't see it being made, to paraphrase Chancellor Bismarck

This is why I support criminality .. including what Congress and the rest of those crooks do ;-)

Fuck all your damn laws!  Do what is right, then forget the rest.

And yes, the Clintons are chameleons ... not people.

I describe Shiranu's arguments as follows:

 Appeal to emotion  (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Appeal_to_emotion)

QuoteAppeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence.[1] This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies, including appeal to consequences, appeal to fear, appeal to flattery, appeal to pity, appeal to ridicule, appeal to spite, and wishful thinking.

Instead of facts, persuasive language is used to develop the foundation of an appeal to emotion-based argument. Thus, the validity of the premises that establish such an argument does not prove to be verifiable.[2]

Appeals to emotion are intended to draw inward feelings from the acquirer of the information. And in turn, the acquirer of the information is intended to be convinced that the statements that were presented in the fallacious argument are true; solely on the basis that the statements may induce emotional stimulation such as fear, pity and joy. Though these emotions may be provoked by an appeal to emotion fallacy, effectively winning the argument, substantial proof of the argument is not offered, and the argument's premises remain invalid.[3][4][5]

And add to that a generous helping of ad hominem.

Quote from: pr126 on September 16, 2017, 01:07:37 AM
I describe Shiranu's arguments as follows:

 Appeal to emotion  (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Appeal_to_emotion)
And add to that a generous helping of ad hominem.

Well howdie dee, we gotter selves a circer jerk boys!

Again, if you expect me or the majority of normal people to find the exact same argument that is used to defend the War on Drugs and that was used to excuse segregation, eugenics, mandatory lobotomies, the death penalty, etc. compelling, you're spinning your tires. Just like I am bashing my head against a wall taking you seriously, hence the last couple posts being more and more completely irrelevant to what you said.

But for one brief moment of seriousness... if the opposite of "appealing to emotion" is, "appealing to the law for the law's sake", then I am perfectly happy wearing that badge of so-called shame that comes with appealing to people's humanity. You can go play Dr. Spock in some little commune or something, I think yall would actually probably enjoy that and so would everyone else, so it's a win/win.

In short...

>Actual DACA recipients and descendants of illegals explain why the law is moronic from both a logical and moral standpoint.
>"Nah bruh, law is law!"
>"Well, sure, but when the law is saying let's hurt people, then maybe it's time to rexamin..."
>"NAH BRUH THE LAW IS THE LAW BRUH! WHY YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT! LOL STUPID EMOTIONS! EMOTIONS LEAD TO TERRIBLE THINGS!"
>"But the law is literally actively hurting people, the exact opposite of it's sole purpose of existence, and law based on just "logic" has been historically diasterous..."
>"LOL NAH BRUH LAW IS LAW BRUH! WHO CARES ABOUT PEOPLE, IT'S THE LAW BRUH!"

QED

LOL, I just read the definition you posted...

Quote...appeal to fear,...

Holy fuck, I may have just lost a kidney to irony overload. Do kidneys process irony? Well, either way... you ruptured something within me, and I am probably going to have to illegally immigrate to England to get dat universal healthcare, so way to go PR, you just increased the illegal immigration to England by one.


By the way, who said your ancestors were legal, Chill? Did the Native Americans give them the legal right to settle on what was rightfully theirs? Tisk tisk, I think someone needs a paddlin' and a good ol' deportation. You're from Arizona, right? I'll have to ask the Hopi or the Pueblo what they think about that, or maybe the Navajo or Mohave. I'm sure your ancestors went through rigorous vetting and tough policies that didn't harmfully effect the native populations though, so you should be fine...

Edit, because there is a good chance it will go over your head: No, I don't actually buy into, "Natives are the only one's with rights to this land!"... my people (humans) have been taking other people's land by force for generations and calling it their own, so why should I arbitarily draw the line at the Native Americans? What about giving Alsace back to the Alsacians, eh? I'm still pretty peeved that we are basically Germans at this point, occupied by France, when we use to have our own territory and culture. And give Andalucia back to the Moors, ffs!

And one more burst of seriousness...

QuoteInstead of facts, persuasive language is used to develop the foundation of an appeal to emotion-based argument. Thus, the validity of the premises that establish such an argument does not prove to be verifiable.[2]

If you think that last post that you QED'd was meant to persuade or argue, then mein gut sie hirnfaule es mucho mal en tu calevera.

Your last sentence makes no sense. Stick to English.

https://youtu.be/m_mDTLphIVY

Quote from: pr126 on September 16, 2017, 02:29:26 AM
Your last sentence makes no sense. Stick to English.

The brain rot in your skull is very bad. Should have been das or some variation, but I didn't feel like hitting backspace. The struggle is real, ya know? And of course the spanish grammar was horrible, but again... my brain was in English sentence structure, not Spanish, so shit happens.

Ah, just another ad hominem. How novel.

Quote from: pr126 on September 16, 2017, 02:32:11 AM
Ah, just another ad hominem. How novel.

Indoubtably. In case you still haven't noticed, I'm not particularly taking this overly seriously because you live in England and thus have zero say in American immigration policy lacking any sort of vote, likewise for Munch (I refuse to acknowledge he is Scottish, since they are historically the brighter of you two and yet it has grown harder and harder to distinguish him from you, so from now on he is English, who I would frankly expect such moronicy about other people's politics and culture from because, you know, basically all of English history) and finally Chill lives in Arizona which frankly needs to get it's shit together because it is the South West equivalent of Florida or Missouri in terms of the number of people holding archaic political views and reminiscing over the days when being an American was only being a WASP, and everyone else could GTFO. As for everyone else... very few of them live in states that actually matter in this issue (Texas, California, New Mexico and Arizona, of which I have been a citizen of half, and most of the time no more than an hour from the border...) and as far as I know none of them hold cold-hearted views on the issue nor will change their views because I willingly choose to make an ass out of myself. So why not have a little fun? It is my birthday cometh Domingo, after all :P.

So given there is either no need or no point in arguing, I enjoy myself and try to pretend there aren't as many backwards thinking buffoons as you who voted for Trump as there actually are, and look on the bright side that the majority of the country didn't elect Trump, which means there is still hope for us all. I suppose I could stop fucking around and address yall seriously, but at this point your positions are so self defeating that all I really have to do is sit here and roll my face on the keyboard and you still lose. It get's boring, hombre, so I spice it up a bit.

QuoteYou are like a poorly trained parrot. Squaaking all day long without any new thoughts.  Must rely on others ideas...

But you are a coward and a sock puppet who is soo convinced of your own 'superiority' that you believe yourself to be benevolent, rather than callous towards those who are more honest than yourself.

What your ancestors did was selfish or ignorant, unsure of which, but they should have been held to the same rules. 

All because I called his position illogical and heartless, which are both simply true statements.

But let's give a slow round of applause to the man who thinks his boy's shit don't think . Stink, though I like don't think as well.

(https://i.imgur.com/0mKXcg1.gif)

Quote from: Shiranu on September 16, 2017, 02:38:05 AM
Indoubtably. In case you still haven't noticed, I'm not particularly taking this overly seriously because you live in England and thus have zero say in American immigration policy lacking any sort of vote, likewise for Munch (I refuse to acknowledge he is Scottish, since they are historically the brighter of you two and yet it has grown harder and harder to distinguish him from you, so from now on he is English, who I would frankly expect such moronicy about other people's politics and culture from because, you know, basically all of English history) and finally Chill lives in Arizona which frankly needs to get it's shit together because it is the South West equivalent of Florida or Missouri in terms of the number of people holding archaic political views and reminiscing over the days when being an American was only being a WASP, and everyone else could GTFO.
.

Well first it doesn't stop you have strong opinions of other countries immigration policies, so that's a bit pot calling the kettle black.

And second you assumed i was Scottish because being English automatically makes you thick and every Scot is clearly smarter, after all it's not okay to make national stereotypes (unless you yourself don't like the countries policies because then it's okay). No I'm not Scottish, I'm as English as Yorkshire pudding. Though I will have Scottish citizenship when I move there with my boyfriend's, so best of both worlds am I right? 😁

But given you've made it okay now to assume a person's personality based purely on their nationality, have you had your third daily helping of hamburgers and cheese for breakfast today? ^^

#notallbrits

Don't worry though, me,  pr126 and chill will be around to haunt you with our wrong think for a long time 😉

QuoteI'm as English as Yorkshire pudding.

Holy shit, you actually proved me right. Merci!

Don't go impersonating French people, that's culturally inappropriate

QuoteAnd second you assumed i was Scottish...

To be fair, you live in Scotland... that makes you, well, Scottish.

I don't live in Scotland, not yet.

My German boyfriend lives in Scotland, does that make him Scottish?

Hey, I am a [legal] immigrant from Hungary, do I get brownie points?
OK, I some lose points for being white, male.

(http://www.schoolrecycling.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Kermit-Its-Not-Easy-Being-Green-2.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on September 16, 2017, 04:51:07 AM
Hey, I am a [legal] immigrant from Hungary, do I get brownie points?
OK, I some lose points for being white, male.

(http://www.schoolrecycling.n et/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Kermit-Its-Not-Easy-Being-Green-2.jpg)

You only get standard points for that, it's double if your illegal

Quote from: Munch on September 16, 2017, 04:28:04 AM
I don't live in Scotland, not yet.

My German boyfriend lives in Scotland, does that make him Scottish?

Ah, okay. And yes, if he is a citizen of Scotland he is Scottish, just not fully Scottish. His children would be.

No true Scotsman?

Quote from: Munch on September 16, 2017, 05:07:51 AM
You only get standard points for that, it's double if your illegal

But when I convert to Islam, I will be an honorary brown and protected from all the Islamophobes by law.
I can have 4 wives, unlimited prepubescent sex slaves, go jihad on the kuffar, - although at 74 I am too tired for all that jazz.

Quote from: Munch on September 16, 2017, 04:28:04 AM
I don't live in Scotland, not yet.

My German boyfriend lives in Scotland, does that make him Scottish?

So then, y'all will walk a kilometer for a haggis, eh laddie?  Or is it a wee dram that interests ye?

Well tescos is about a mile away from their apartment and they sell haggis there, so does that count?

Quote from: Munch on September 16, 2017, 09:48:18 AM
Well tescos is about a mile away from their apartment and they sell haggis there, so does that count?

I have had both ... best to combine them (haggis and a wee dram).  The haggis was served at a Scottish Clan gathering in the US years ago (my wife and I are part Scottish, who isn't?).  The nice man scooped the contents right out of a large sheep's stomach.  I don't understand it as a pirogi however.  Also I am a poof, the only scotch I will drink is Drambui.

I tried microwaving haggis.. don't ever microwave haggis..

Then I went to a restaurant and ordered haggis burgers.

(https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2015/05/HR-Haggis-Burger.jpg)

Maybe it's not how the ancient Scots would have eaten it but it's still haggis

Quote from: Munch on September 16, 2017, 04:14:10 PM
I tried microwaving haggis.. don't ever microwave haggis..

Then I went to a restaurant and ordered haggis burgers.

(https://cdn.foodbeast.com/content/uploads/2015/05/HR-Haggis-Burger.jpg)

Maybe it's not how the ancient Scots would have eaten it but it's still haggis

The American in me think that looks like the most delicious shit to ever Grace the earth.

Quote from: Baruch on September 16, 2017, 09:52:19 AM
I have had both ... best to combine them (haggis and a wee dram).  The haggis was served at a Scottish Clan gathering in the US years ago (my wife and I are part Scottish, who isn't?).  The nice man scooped the contents right out of a large sheep's stomach.  I don't understand it as a pirogi however.  Also I am a poof, the only scotch I will drink is Drambui.

Oddly, I'm not.  Nearly everything from Germany to Britain, and France, but not Celtic.  But I'll raise a Gin Buck to ya...