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Humanities Section => Philosophy & Rhetoric General Discussion => Topic started by: Baruch on September 06, 2017, 12:36:40 PM

Title: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 06, 2017, 12:36:40 PM
https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/really-purpose-philosophy-plato/

Originally philosophy was somewhat theistic ... if non-parochial about it ... since modern times, theology has fallen out of academic philosophy, outside of seminaries, when in the past, they were tied (as recently as 100-150 years ago).  So the point of the article, but doesn't answer, if does philosophy have a long term goal, or has the facts on the ground of academic philosophy made the question of purpose ... moot?
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Cavebear on September 07, 2017, 04:14:45 AM
https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/really-purpose-philosophy-plato/

Originally philosophy was somewhat theistic ... if non-parochial about it ... since modern times, theology has fallen out of academic philosophy, outside of seminaries, when in the past, they were tied (as recently as 100-150 years ago).  So the point of the article, but doesn't answer, if does philosophy have a long term goal, or has the facts on the ground of academic philosophy made the question of purpose ... moot?

Interesting article.  But my best understanding of philosophy is how to answer mind questions with no answers.  What is the meaning of life?  Why do we think?  What does thinking mean?  Why do we just not kill our neighbors and take their food and goods?

Religion answers those questions by assuming a deity we must answer to after death.  Atheists say the questions must be answered before death and without a deity.  Philosophers say "let's argue about it all forever and ever and ever in the vaguest terms possible. 

I'm obviously not fond of philosophers...  Though it does seem a couple of them agree with ME (by accident, I'm sure).
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 12, 2017, 06:44:54 AM
Materialism is vain, unless a girl kisses you ...

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-07-14
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Sal1981 on September 12, 2017, 08:18:35 AM
From elsewhere:

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 12, 2017, 01:26:41 PM
From elsewhere:

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.

Not in my case, but we can't all be perfect (kisses big selfie picture).
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Unbeliever on September 12, 2017, 01:53:48 PM
From elsewhere:

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
To paraphrase Albert E., philosophy without science is blind, but science without philosophy is lame.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 12, 2017, 07:15:51 PM
To paraphrase Albert E., philosophy without science is blind, but science without philosophy is lame.

More slang Einstein facts ...
Walking home from work each day with Kurt Godel was cool. (lame can be over interpreted)
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Cavebear on September 14, 2017, 03:49:25 AM
From elsewhere:

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.
Religion is answers that may never be questioned.

I disagree entirely.  Philosophy is mostly nonsense and Theism is mostly about utter superstition.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 14, 2017, 07:31:55 AM
I disagree entirely.  Philosophy is mostly nonsense and Theism is mostly about utter superstition.

Government is mostly disinformation.  The public doesn't need to know, the narrative must be controlled ... the spice must flow.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Cavebear on September 14, 2017, 08:11:15 AM
Government is mostly disinformation.  The public doesn't need to know, the narrative must be controlled ... the spice must flow.

Government is not a "disinformation".  It is US.  And the roads must move.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 14, 2017, 08:20:47 PM
Government is not a "disinformation".  It is US.  And the roads must move.

It was you, but you are retired.  It is still me, and it will be me driving the Abrams thru your front door, unless I retire sooner.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: aitm on September 15, 2017, 11:11:05 AM
Interesting article.  But my best understanding of philosophy is how to answer mind questions with no answers.
 

I would suggest, and we can all relate, that once people get an "idea" in their head, and once they become tied to it, you cannot argue them out of it. Very similar to the...." you can't use reason to argue someone out of a position they didn't use reason to ...whatever"  anyhoo....

For the religious it becomes not just a matter of belief, it becomes a emotional one. They have tied themselves to this idea and wave the flag now. They take ownership of this idea and it is part of their outward persona. Being wrong is not going to make them feel good at all. They demand they NOT be wrong. As such, like those that comes here, we will never convince them they are wrong because to admit it, would be far too painful to their ego. They have invested a lot of time and emotion into being right. You will never prove them wrong, because they will simply ignore the "evidence".

As such, to the ancient style of Socrates and/or Plato, they knew they could not argue someone out of a position so they had to let the person argue themselves into it. I cannot say that in the long run they actually convinced anyone to change their position but it would seem to work better than to present a detailed argument complete with hard facts to an audience already convinced you're lying.

We have the same thing when dealing with today's politics and social angst. We cannot convince someone they are wrong using arguments they believe are simply made up. This is the larger problem, there are no "facts" anymore, just wild assertions that those whom want to believe will no matter how crazy because it agrees with what they want it to be. Facts be damned, I want "a" to be true..so such that I now proclaim it to be.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Cavebear on September 19, 2017, 03:07:25 AM
I would suggest, and we can all relate, that once people get an "idea" in their head, and once they become tied to it, you cannot argue them out of it. Very similar to the...." you can't use reason to argue someone out of a position they didn't use reason to ...whatever"  anyhoo....

For the religious it becomes not just a matter of belief, it becomes a emotional one. They have tied themselves to this idea and wave the flag now. They take ownership of this idea and it is part of their outward persona. Being wrong is not going to make them feel good at all. They demand they NOT be wrong. As such, like those that comes here, we will never convince them they are wrong because to admit it, would be far too painful to their ego. They have invested a lot of time and emotion into being right. You will never prove them wrong, because they will simply ignore the "evidence".

As such, to the ancient style of Socrates and/or Plato, they knew they could not argue someone out of a position so they had to let the person argue themselves into it. I cannot say that in the long run they actually convinced anyone to change their position but it would seem to work better than to present a detailed argument complete with hard facts to an audience already convinced you're lying.

We have the same thing when dealing with today's politics and social angst. We cannot convince someone they are wrong using arguments they believe are simply made up. This is the larger problem, there are no "facts" anymore, just wild assertions that those whom want to believe will no matter how crazy because it agrees with what they want it to be. Facts be damned, I want "a" to be true..so such that I now proclaim it to be.

Sadly, you are quite correct.  It is nearly impossible to change any person's mind.

But that's not why I debate here.  I know I'm not going to change Baruch's mind.  But there are readers whose minds are NOT set.  I am here to influence THEIR thoughts...
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 19, 2017, 10:21:50 PM
Sadly, you are quite correct.  It is nearly impossible to change any person's mind.

But that's not why I debate here.  I know I'm not going to change Baruch's mind.  But there are readers whose minds are NOT set.  I am here to influence THEIR thoughts...

Yes, like Socrates, you are here to corrupt the youth.  But not like Munch ;-)
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Cavebear on September 23, 2017, 04:30:17 AM
Yes, like Socrates, you are here to corrupt the youth.  But not like Munch ;-)

And there is a snide little suggestion...  The unsupported snark of the weak of rational argument.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Baruch on September 23, 2017, 05:33:54 PM
And there is a snide little suggestion...  The unsupported snark of the weak of rational argument.

The men he likes are "children" to me.  I meant nothing else, you did.
Title: Re: Sic transit gloria philosophia ....
Post by: Cavebear on September 28, 2017, 04:33:55 AM
The men he likes are "children" to me.  I meant nothing else, you did.
You are correct.  I wrote too casually.  I apologize.  But I didn't mean that either.