Because I think this is too important of topic to let slide, but I don't want to turn the movie thread into a debate...
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/these-5-states-still-use-confederate-symbols-their-flags (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/these-5-states-still-use-confederate-symbols-their-flags)
QuoteFor 39 years, the Confederate battle flag â€" an instantly recognizable blue “X,†bedecked with white stars, against a red background â€" flew atop the Capitol dome in Columbia, South Carolina. It still flies on the State House grounds, and the governor wants it removed.It is different from the South Carolina state flag, which features a white crescent moon and palmetto tree against a field of indigo.
But in at least five other Southern states, symbols of the old Confederacy form part of the state flags themselves.
...
Florida
From 1868 to 1900, the flag was the state seal against a white background. Gov. Francis Fleming, who fought in the Confederate army, suggested adding the red “X†in the 1890s to distinguish it from a flag of surrender, according to the Department of State.
Florida’s state flag thus strongly resembles Alabama’s. Separately, a version of the Confederate flag known as the Stainless Banner flew over the west entrance of the Capitol from 1978 until 2001, when Gov. Jeb Bush ordered it removed.
Georgia
In 1956, Georgia adopted a flag that prominently incorporated the battle emblem. It came down in 2001 in favor of a compromise flag that made the Confederate imagery much smaller.
The current flag was adopted in 2003. It is the first national flag of the Confederacy, known as the Stars and Bars, with the state’s symbolic arch added inside a circle of stars. Georgia voters endorsed it by a 3-to-1 margin in a 2004 referendum.
Mississippi
Mississippi is the only state still incorporating the Confederate battle emblem into its state flag. Voters endorsed it by a margin of almost 2-to-1 in a 2001 referendum.
At Munch: Again, you simply cannot know certain parts of our culture without knowing and understanding intimately our culture, and likewise neither can anyone else, myself included. So when someone from a different culture tells you of their experiences growing up and living in that culture, don't get sassy and act like it doesn't exist because it doesn't agree with your stereotype of them.
Wow your still harping on this? I forgot about the shitty movie already, your still trying to draw up something from it.
Though I am curious what this stereotype is you think I have.
Her parents knew I was black, we'd met. They had no problem with that, but did insist she finish high school.
Quote from: Munch on September 02, 2017, 07:22:40 AM
Wow your still harping on this? I forgot about the shitty movie already, your still trying to draw up something from it.
Though I am curious what this stereotype is you think I have.
Log Cabin Republican ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 02, 2017, 02:17:09 PM
Log Cabin Republican ;-)
Only log cabins I've enjoyed are ones with an all male team and clothing optional venue
Quote from: Munch on September 02, 2017, 07:22:40 AM
Wow your still harping on this? I forgot about the shitty movie already, your still trying to draw up something from it.
Though I am curious what this stereotype is you think I have.
This has nothing to do with the movie, just like my first quote.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 02, 2017, 03:24:34 PM
This has nothing to do with the movie, just like my first quote.
Well it certainly branched off from it. So do tell, what's my stereotype?
Quote from: Munch on September 02, 2017, 04:14:34 PM
Well it certainly branched off from it. So do tell, what's my stereotype?
That America is not a deeply racially divided country to this day. If you have to ask why an African American would be concerned about a white girl's parents knowing he is black, and then make jokes about it, then it's clear that you have a very inaccurate view on American culture that stems from ignorance of our culture; I.e., a stereotype.
You talked about the "All American suburb" which is in is very nature a stereotype of American culture. And that's fine, because stereotypes generally have allot of truth to them, but the one you hold left out a hugely important aspect of it. Yes, it's not important to you or me because you don't live here and I don't have dark skin, but that doesn't mean for millions and millions of people it therefore doesn't exist.
And I shared this because I just recently found it and thought it was relevant. If we had never discussed this, I still would have shared it because I think it is relevant to American society, which is what the majority of posters on here belong to, just with a different title and text following the quote.
Look hun, if someone wants to make a movie showing the realistic societal narrative in america of race, acceptance and divide, thats fine. But that movies narrative was garbage and the stereotypes were cartoony at best. Thats the trope of bad horror movies, so claiming some social aspect to the movie from that premise was always a bad idea.
I seem to be having deja vu all a sudden. This seems so familiar a conversation.
Except I couldn't care less about a movie I've never seen, and except that's not what you said. You spent several paragraphs talking about something completely unrelated to the movie... you cant honestly expect us to believe you when you now say it was all about the movie. You were making a social statement, and when you were proven wrong on it you rather lie about it than just admit you were wrong.
Like the politician from Missouri who advocated lynching people who thought confederate statues should be removed... then claims that he didn't mean to use the word lynching. You say certain things with meaning certain things, the words don't just randomly come out.
So lemme get this right, you've not seen the movie, and so you don't know the story, which is what my discussion was about, the setting within the movie, and you got so butthurt over what I said, that you interpreted it as the reality, instead of pausing to think maybe, just maybe, I'm talking about the premise of story within the film?
Are you so removed from reality that you can't differentiate real life and a film setting? I said what happened in the movies plot was crap, because what happened in it Was crap.
I don't give a flying fuck about what you want to believe, I don't need to lie about something that you assume I'm basing it on. You haven't seen the movie, so before you make assumptions, go watch it, THEN your have something to base that on.
What movie?
Yankee ... Rebels hiding under the bed
Rebel .. Yankees hiding under the bed
Emperor Putin ... feel the hate!
Quote from: Munch on September 03, 2017, 01:24:05 PM
Get Out.
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/0557da8a117dee873f52e909a6251606/tumblr_o1q1hmjn4X1qeqshio1_400.gif)
My opinion of the Confederate flag is about the same as my opinion of the German Nazi swastika - it has no place in a democratic society. I don't think traitors to their country should be in any way honored, with either flags or statues.
I know Baruch says that this nation's founders were all traitors to their country, but I bet Britain doesn't have statues honoring them, either.
Quote from: Blackleaf on September 03, 2017, 03:12:29 PM
(http://68.media.tumblr.com/0557da8a117dee873f52e909a6251606/tumblr_o1q1hmjn4X1qeqshio1_400.gif)
its alright, i was possessed by the amityville ghost.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 03, 2017, 03:22:47 PM
My opinion of the Confederate flag is about the same as my opinion of the German Nazi swastika - it has no place in a democratic society. I don't think traitors to their country should be in any way honored, with either flags or statues.
I know Baruch says that this nation's founders were all traitors to their country, but I bet Britain doesn't have statues honoring them, either.
1. If you learn to see your country, from the eyes of a different country, or better yet, an enemy ... your eyes will be open and never close.
2. Yes, Britain still has stuff they pillaged from the White House before they burned it. For all we have done for them in two world wars. So like Ireland (even the Republican part) .. we are England's bitch. Not that I mind.
3. Britain has its own long standing ennui ... see the recent feelings about King Richard III. Think of the hostile portrayals by Shakespeare ... think Tywin Lannister ;-)) My Tudor relations were on the opposite side, but had a more distant relationship with King Richard's ancestors thru relatives of William the Conqueror. My closer cousins fighting my distant cousins .. as Bosworth. But King Richard might have won, except for betrayal on the battlefield by Sir William Stanley.
4. I doubt non-Americans can understand how "triggering" the Confederate flags (more than one of them) is. I would never display one myself, even if I have some sympathy for the South being from Texas, and a grandson of a KKK member. Nor do I have the slightest prejudice against African-Americans.
Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2017, 03:45:23 PM
1. If you learn to see your country, from the eyes of a different country, or better yet, an enemy ... your eyes will be open and never close.
Sounds like the outsider test of faith.
Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2017, 02:14:30 PM
Yankee ... Rebels hiding under the bed
Rebel .. Yankees hiding under the bed
Emperor Putin ... feel the hate!
When I was growing up, it was also.................
Yankees.....Dodgers under the bed
Dodgers---Yankees under the bed
New York Giants (baseball team, not football)......feel the hate!
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 03, 2017, 05:22:42 PM
Sounds like the outsider test of faith.
Politics is a kind of faith. It is just as much a part of the Matrix as the church is. So blue pill then?
THere comes a time in any rational society to set the errors of the past free and move on.
In this case, there are times when some people were honored and are deservedly not now. This is that time. Let the Civil War statues be removed because they no longer represent what we should honor.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2017, 11:01:18 PM
THere comes a time in any rational society to set the errors of the past free and move on.
In this case, there are times when some people were honored and are deservedly not now. This is that time. Let the Civil War statues be removed because they no longer represent what we should honor.
Only when there is collective amnesia. Otherwise you are proposing selective cause/effect. The effect of both correct and incorrect action 200 years ago, influences us, everyone in between, and all our posterity as well. Drop in a still pond and all that.
I agree, take down Mt Rushmore, we shouldn't honor Washington nor Jefferson.
Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2017, 03:45:23 PM
Nor do I have the slightest prejudice against African-Americans.
When you have to say something like that, you have a slight problem...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
When you have to say something like that, you have a slight problem...
You have a slight problem with me giving you "likes" ... so maybe you are the one in denial. Of course I wasn't raised to be particular prejudiced, fortunately. And I pride myself on being pragmatically fair minded and beneficent. You can kiss my Papal ring now ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on September 03, 2017, 11:25:35 PM
You have a slight problem with me giving you "likes" ... so maybe you are the one in denial. Of course I wasn't raised to be particular prejudiced, fortunately. And I pride myself on being pragmatically fair minded and beneficent. You can kiss my Papal ring now ;-))
Oh my, Baruch, that is an entirely different subject. I don't "like" you because I don't like you. You are a trollish pest who adds little to the Board discussion. But there you are and I am here and bored. I would much rather talk to ALMOST anyone else.
But you aren't the DUMBEST theist I've even met, so...
But really, no I don't care about your "likes" to my posts in the least. It almost insults me. Let that relieve you from any feeling of obligation.
QuoteSo lemme get this right, you've not seen the movie, and so you don't know the story, which is what my discussion was about, the setting within the movie, and you got so butthurt over what I said, that you interpreted it as the reality, instead of pausing to think maybe, just maybe, I'm talking about the premise of story within the film?
Except the discussion wasn't about the film. In your own words...
QuoteRight from the start I paused it when he said to her "do they know I'm black", because when it showed this movie was set in the modern day, it made me ask 'why would he need to ask her that question?', this movie did nothing to establish the setting, just an all american suburb, so why would he ask something like that? That be like my boyfriend asking me "does your mum know I'm german" before he meet her.
I responded to why asking that question in, "Modern day... all american suburb" would make perfect sense, and from there you just continued to throw a hissy fit any time evidence showing why that would be a valid question was brought up. That has nothing to do with the plot of the movie and you damn well know it, indicated both by just simple common sense and also how you went out of your way a few sentences earlier to make a point that this movie was possibly trying to make real world commentary.
If we want to say it's within the context of the movie, than you might as well be bitching about, "Why do they live in houses? The movie hasn't told me why they live in houses! What a stupid movie!". I'm not annoyed by you disliking a movie I have never seen, I am annoyed by you intentionally acting like a 8 year old when anyone tries to educate you about something you are ignorant about. And I am annoyed by you acting like this is about the movie when we both know god damn well that it's not, otherwise you wouldn't have gone out of your way to make a political statement several times in your post. Either it is only about the movie or it isn't; you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. I'm sorry if that annoys you snowflake, but you aren't special and exempt from being called out when you don't like reality disagreeing with your agenda.
Look, it would be one thing if you were to just say, "I disagree. You're stupid.". I could respect that. But what your doing here is literally arguing like a kindergardener saying, "Nuh uh! Nuh uh! Nuh uh!" which is really pathetic for a grown ass man to be doing.
I'm trying to do you a favour, mate. That... or let you continue to shoot yourself in the foot so no one has any inclination to take the hateful things you tend to say seriously since they all know you are full of it. It's a win-win situation for me, and it could be a winning situation for you as well if you would get over yourself for five seconds and just admit you didn't know that about American culture.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 03, 2017, 11:34:47 PM
Oh my, Baruch, that is an entirely different subject. I don't "like" you because I don't like you. You are a trollish pest who adds little to the Board discussion. But there you are and I am here and bored. I would much rather talk to ALMOST anyone else.
But you aren't the DUMBEST theist I've even met, so...
But really, no I don't care about your "likes" to my posts in the least. It almost insults me. Let that relieve you from any feeling of obligation.
And you are very much like the DMV clerk from hell ... not that I mind that. And no, I didn't think you had changed your opinions.
Shiranu ... do you think every hateful movie proves how awful people are, or just when it is dismissive of Americans?
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 12:15:00 AM
Shiranu ... do you think every hateful movie proves how awful people are, or just when it is dismissive of Americans?
I cant say I have watched very many if any hateful movies, nor even know of many, so I don't feel comfortable or qualified in answering that one way or another.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2017, 12:23:42 AM
I cant say I have watched very many if any hateful movies, nor even know of many, so I don't feel comfortable or qualified in answering that one way or another.
The movie in question was one you know about, but didn't see. So I didn't mention "watching" ... you dodged.
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 12:27:22 AM
The movie in question was one you know about, but didn't see. So I didn't mention "watching" ... you dodged.
Ah. Didn't realise you were talking about, "Get Out", since you said hateful movies. I have seen nothing to indicate that it is hateful. The extent of my knowledge about it is that people liked it, that it had social commentary on race relations in the U.S., and I think that African American comedian Peele is either an actor or director of it. Before Munch mentioned it, I honestly didn't even know it was a horror movie.
Again, I have seen nothing to indicate any movie as being hateful; I suppose (am sure, actually) xenophobes, homophobes, Islamaphobes, etc. have movies, I just don't know of them and have no interest in knowing of them.
Hateful ... doesn't just mean ... something you only find hateful. There are community standards, depending on your community. I find the idea of "Get Out" as hateful as "Inglorious Bastards" which trivialize my parent's generation. There are people ... some of them White, who are dangerous to non-White people. Making a horror movie about real threats by real people, and turning it into a joke, is hateful to me. Or do you think that there are lots of White folk out there who actually transplant their brains into the bodies of non-White victims? Isn't that really about Ms Dolezal?
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 12:13:35 AM
And you are very much like the DMV clerk from hell ... not that I mind that. And no, I didn't think you had changed your opinions.
Interestingly, as a Govt employee, I was opposite. I constantly got in trouble by actually helping people. You just say stuff because it seems to make you feel clever. One day you will wake up...
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 12:48:50 AM
Hateful ... doesn't just mean ... something you only find hateful. There are community standards, depending on your community. I find the idea of "Get Out" as hateful as "Inglorious Bastards" which trivialize my parent's generation. There are people ... some of them White, who are dangerous to non-White people. Making a horror movie about real threats by real people, and turning it into a joke, is hateful to me. Or do you think that there are lots of White folk out there who actually transplant their brains into the bodies of non-White victims? Isn't that really about Ms Dolezal?
Offense is generally taken, not given, so I don't think the blame should be put on a piece of art without viewing the context. We are using different definitions of the word hateful, I think; what I am referring to is the synonym to malicious. "Get Out", "Inglorious", etc. are not movies that are looking to be malicious... in the case of "Get Out" it is likely quite the opposite given Peele's background. Nor does trivializing and turning into entertainment the Holocaust make something hateful. I don't think anyone came out of that movie with a changed opinion on how terrible the Nazis were or that the Holocaust was just all fun and games.
I wouldn't even call Carr, Carlin, Pryor, Murphy hateful... all though they intentionally used jokes meant to offend and "hurt" people... because that offense and hurt was recognized by everyone as both a joke and a poignant statement.
When I say I don't know of any hateful movies, I mean something that is specifically created as a hateful comment with no humour or positive undertone to it; the closest I can think of would be some of the anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT videos you can find on youtube. That is the type of hate I am referring to.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2017, 01:19:46 AM
Offense is generally taken, not given, so I don't think the blame should be put on a piece of art without viewing the context. We are using different definitions of the word hateful, I think; what I am referring to is the synonym to malicious. "Get Out", "Inglorious", etc. are not movies that are looking to be malicious... in the case of "Get Out" it is likely quite the opposite given Peele's background. Nor does trivializing and turning into entertainment the Holocaust make something hateful. I don't think anyone came out of that movie with a changed opinion on how terrible the Nazis were or that the Holocaust was just all fun and games.
I wouldn't even call Carr, Carlin, Pryor, Murphy hateful... all though they intentionally used jokes meant to offend and "hurt" people... because that offense and hurt was recognized by everyone as both a joke and a poignant statement.
When I say I don't know of any hateful movies, I mean something that is specifically created as a hateful comment with no humour or positive undertone to it; the closest I can think of would be some of the anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT videos you can find on youtube. That is the type of hate I am referring to.
The last movie I saw at a theater was AntZ. I just wait for them to show up free on TV. I saw Ultron last week. Didn't seem out of date.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 04, 2017, 02:04:55 AM
The last movie I saw at a theater was AntZ. I just wait for them to show up free on TV. I saw Ultron last week. Didn't seem out of date.
AntZ ... so did you want to grow up to be Woody Allen already? Who nu?
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 06:58:47 AM
AntZ ... so did you want to grow up to be Woody Allen already? Who nu?
What IS it about you that causes such uselessly jester posts? I watched a movie and you think I identify with the voice character? Are you severely troubled or just annoyingly religious?
You do make me smile though.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 04, 2017, 10:21:46 AM
What IS it about you that causes such uselessly jester posts? I watched a movie and you think I identify with the voice character? Are you severely troubled or just annoyingly religious?
You do make me smile though.
Gotcha .. Shrek.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 04, 2017, 10:57:09 AM
Congratulations, Donkey...
You are such a sweet parfait ... yummy.
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 11:00:56 AM
You are such a sweet parfait ... yummy.
I'm more fresh peaches and plums... Sliced, not stirred.
Quote from: Munch on September 02, 2017, 08:18:42 PM
Look hun, if someone wants to make a movie showing the realistic societal narrative in america of race, acceptance and divide, thats fine. But that movies narrative was garbage and the stereotypes were cartoony at best. Thats the trope of bad horror movies, so claiming some social aspect to the movie from that premise was always a bad idea.
I seem to be having deja vu all a sudden. This seems so familiar a conversation.
Or as Yogi Berra would say, 'It's like déjà vu all over again'.
Or we can just go all the way, ban all movies that no more than a few artsy-fartsy movie majors would bother watching (not picking on a certain regular poster here).
Why not just produce all those great Proletarian movies and plays that made the Red Guards so popular in 1960s China?
Quote from: Shiranu on September 02, 2017, 04:50:56 AM
Because I think this is too important of topic to let slide, but I don't want to turn the movie thread into a debate...
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/these-5-states-still-use-confederate-symbols-their-flags (http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/these-5-states-still-use-confederate-symbols-their-flags)
At Munch: Again, you simply cannot know certain parts of our culture without knowing and understanding intimately our culture, and likewise neither can anyone else, myself included. So when someone from a different culture tells you of their experiences growing up and living in that culture, don't get sassy and act like it doesn't exist because it doesn't agree with your stereotype of them.
Hypothetically speaking, I'd be more worried about my parents finding out she was white.
I really like this quote from
Guess Who's Coming To Dinner:
Quote from: John PrenticeYou listen to me. You say you don't want to tell me how to live my life. So what do you think you've been doing? You tell me what rights I've got or haven't got, and what I owe to you for what you've done for me. Let me tell you something. I owe you nothing! If you carried that bag a million miles, you did what you're supposed to do! Because you brought me into this world. And from that day you owed me everything you could ever do for me like I will owe my son if I ever have another. But you don't own me! You can't tell me when or where I'm out of line, or try to get me to live my life according to your rules. You don't even know what I am, Dad, you don't know who I am. You don't know how I feel, what I think. And if I tried to explain it the rest of your life you will never understand. You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs! You understand, you've got to get off my back! Dad... Dad, you're my father. I'm your son. I love you. I always have and I always will. But you think of yourself as a colored man. I think of myself as a man. Now, I've got a decision to make, hm? And I've got to make it alone, and I gotta make it in a hurry. So would you go out there and see after my mother?
John: You listen to me. You say you don't want to tell me how to live my life. So what do you think you've been doing? You tell me what rights I've got or haven't got, and what I owe to you for what you've done for me. Let me tell you something. I owe you nothing! If you carried that bag a million miles, you did what you're supposed to do! Because you brought me into this world. And from that day you owed me everything you could ever do for me like I will owe my son if I ever have another. But you don't own me! You can't tell me when or where I'm out of line, or try to get me to live my life according to your rules. You don't even know what I am, Dad, you don't know who I am. You don't know how I feel, what I think. And if I tried to explain it the rest of your life you will never understand. You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs! You understand, you've got to get off my back! Dad... Dad, you're my father. I'm your son. I love you. I always have and I always will. But you think of yourself as a colored man. I think of myself as a man. Now, I've got a decision to make, hm? And I've got to make it alone, and I gotta make it in a hurry. So would you go out there and see after my mother?
Quote from: Baruch on September 04, 2017, 10:29:25 PM
Or we can just go all the way, ban all movies that no more than a few artsy-fartsy movie majors would bother watching (not picking on a certain regular poster here).
Why not just produce all those great Proletarian movies and plays that made the Red Guards so popular in 1960s China?
Probably because 2017 US isn't 1960s China...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 07, 2017, 02:51:49 AM
Probably because 2017 US isn't 1960s China...
1960s Cuba perhaps? That is what all these Church Of Latter Day Che folks think. Draft all he college students already!
Quote from: Baruch on September 07, 2017, 07:00:09 AM
1960s Cuba perhaps? That is what all these Church Of Latter Day Che folks think. Draft all he college students already!
"Church Of The Latter Day Che"? That was great! You crack me up. Really, we sure disagree, but you give me a smile sometimes.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 07, 2017, 08:48:48 AM
"Church Of The Latter Day Che"? That was great! You crack me up. Really, we sure disagree, but you give me a smile sometimes.
I am not saying that of the average Democrat ... not even the average college student (who wants to graduate) but the privileged scions of the idle bourgeoise, who are activists. Same sad bunch as in 1965 etc. I went to a real college, never had time for politics (though a few of us met the VP Libertarian candidate in 1976).
Quote from: Baruch on September 07, 2017, 06:35:01 PM
I am not saying that of the average Democrat ... not even the average college student (who wants to graduate) but the privileged scions of the idle bourgeoise, who are activists. Same sad bunch as in 1965 etc. I went to a real college, never had time for politics (though a few of us met the VP Libertarian candidate in 1976).
I spent enough years after college in roach-filled apartments, eating hamburger helper, helper, working at minimum wage. And even when I advanced enough at the department store, to be in charge of 25% of it, I moved from $2.15 per hour to $2.25.
WOWSWERS!!!
Don't tell ME about capitalism. There is a reason the 99% is the 99% and it ISN'T lack of working hard.
It's robber CEOs and their like...