In order to try to obtain an understanding of what the forum as a whole believes pertaining to the theory of evolution, i would like to ask the following questions:
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
3. What time-scale?
4. How important is 2
5. How important is 3.
Thank you - and a discussion can follow after i receive enough responses!
You haven't done enough to introduce yourself in the introduction section ... but OK ...
There is a permanent string on evolution already ... but OK ...
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
Life isn't static, an individual develops, a collective (a species, an ecology) evolves.
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
Space, time, mass & energy pretty much require change. There is very little that doesn't change, and that is physical law.
3. What time-scale?
Development is over a lifetime. Evolution is over billions of years.
4. How important is 2
Can't happen without it.
5. How important is 3.
Human time scale is merciful, otherwise I would have to wait billions of years for retirement.
Expanding on #1 ... there are metaphysical problems that intervene in people's reaction to the idea of species evolution. We have a hard time tolerating the dichotomy of individual vs collective. If you take the really big picture ... individuals aren't independent in space (we are part of an ecology) or independent in time (we are part of a temporary species). This offends Western sensibility, and theological immutability. In Platonic terms, which infected most of theology ... change is an illusion only the immutable is real. But this is a prejudice, a choice (and the word heresy is derived from "choice"). Basically one of the hardest ontological distinctions for a human to think about is "being" vs "becoming". A theology always has a very specific view of what those are. But the classic theological labeling is "eternity" vs "temporality". I see no reason to privilege one over the other. But mixing categories is something a mystic like myself does naturally. A mystic is an observer, who detaches from any particular POV. A philosopher also does this ... hence the overlap between the two modalities.
In other words, my individual life is like a single cell in a living super-being (pantheism) .. I am not separate from my biological ancestors, I carry them within me, like the Russian dolls ... but inverse. With the Russian dolls, the mother carries all her descendants within her, specifically the girls ... which is a kind of cloning chain. Which is why women are fundamentally different than men. But ... because of society and culture, my ancestry isn't limited to biology. Hence I am a panentheist. We are literally fresh shoots on a tree of life. In terms of pine trees, women are the tree, men are just pine cones ;-)
Thank you for your reply, and hopefully as time goes on you will get to all know me more, through my ideas. I believe a big part of an individuals identity are what they believe in terms of their world view, their personality, and other facets of themselves which can only be obtained by getting to know me over time.
However, you would like to know more of my background, feel free to ask!
I would like to touch on two of the points you made:
1. Evolution occurs over billions of years - and that this time frame is absolutely necessary. Is this an accurate understanding?
2. Could you expand on the mechanism, in terms of whether you believe it is via random mutation over a long period of time with natural selection for example.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 07:21:15 AM
Thank you for your reply, and hopefully as time goes on you will get to all know me more, through my ideas. I believe a big part of an individuals identity are what they believe in terms of their world view, their personality, and other facets of themselves which can only be obtained by getting to know me over time.
However, you would like to know more of my background, feel free to ask!
I would like to touch on two of the points you made:
1. Evolution occurs over billions of years - and that this time frame is absolutely necessary. Is this an accurate understanding?
2. Could you expand on the mechanism, in terms of whether you believe it is via random mutation over a long period of time with natural selection for example.
My primary college education isn't biology, but I think I have a grasp of it.
1. A species is a group of mutually interbreeding creatures (this is limited by both biology and geography ... lions and tigers can be made to interbreed). The biology of the individuals within the species, is various. Most variations are benign or carry no advantage. Some are malignant or carry an advantage. Ecological pressure (say drought) forces some individuals to not breed, this leads to a drift in the averages. Meanwhile random mutations occur, most of which are malignant (cancer is the development version).
2. Natural selection is loaded terminology. We don't agree on what is "natural". The sex/gender/culture selection that humans do is way beyond what other species do ... and ordinarily it is women who control that process. Women decide the evolution of humanity, what is attractive. Women became more female, and men because more male, because that is what women chose ... as an unintended consequence. Of course the classic natural selection of Darwin, is the Galapagos Islands. There you have both geographic isolation, and intense competition, such that birds on one island are now different ... even though they have common ancestors. The mating of Galapagos tortoises is very slow (I have seen it in the zoo) ... but I assume they are strongly motivated. The males have to compete for females hence they are armored.
3. As a timeframe ... artificial evolution (in a gene splicing lab) occurs very fast. But very unnatural. If we limit to natural evolution ... where there is no intent to evolved, just the unintended consequences of living ... then yes it has to take a long time. Too rapid a change would be fatal to the individual or the species. People drown, because we can't develop gills fast enough.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on October 06, 1974, 04:20:07 AM
1. Evolution occurs over billions of years - and that this time frame is absolutely necessary. Is this an accurate understanding?
Evolution happens when a change occurs in the DNA. This affects the next generation positively, or negatively. If positive the animal has a slightly better chance to pass along its genes. If negative it has a slightly worse chance to pass along its genes.
The rest is just mechanics.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 07:21:15 AM
1. Evolution occurs over billions of years - and that this time frame is absolutely necessary. Is this an accurate understanding?
Absolutely necessary for what? Evolution is an ongoing process. It doesn't necessarily take billions of years. Our species evolved from rodent like creatures that survived the Cretaceousâ€"Paleogene extinction event about 65 million years ago.
Quote2. Could you expand on the mechanism, in terms of whether you believe it is via random mutation over a long period of time with natural selection for example.
Random mutation and natural selection are the primary driving force of the evolution of life.
You don't need to understand evolution, and I don't need to explain it to you.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
In order to try to obtain an understanding of what the forum as a whole believes pertaining to the theory of evolution, i would like to ask the following questions:
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
3. What time-scale?
4. How important is 2
5. How important is 3.
Thank you - and a discussion can follow after i receive enough responses!
I don't believe anything about evolution. Science is not a religion where one gets to choose which parts they want to accept or reinterpret. Science is true regardless of whether or not you agree with it.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
In order to try to obtain an understanding of what the forum as a whole believes pertaining to the theory of evolution, i would like to ask the following questions:
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
3. What time-scale?
4. How important is 2
5. How important is 3.
Thank you - and a discussion can follow after i receive enough responses!
Why don't you read the thread about evolution? Instead of being lazy, read it yourself.
Unless of course, you want to play a typical theist game of 'gotcha', where you jump out from behind your 'belief' bush and show us stupid atheists how so very wrong we are--and, of course, how bright a little theist you are.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
In order to try to obtain an understanding of what the forum as a whole believes pertaining to the theory of evolution, i would like to ask the following questions:
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
3. What time-scale?
4. How important is 2
5. How important is 3.
1. I'd guess that you're referring to the Theory of Evolution.
2. Evolution is the mechanism by which species change.
3. Any time scale.
4. It is important.
5. Time is also important.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
Thank you - and a discussion can follow after i receive enough responses!
You can only really have a discussion if you know what it is that you're discussing.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
3. What time-scale?
4. How important is 2
5. How important is 3.
1. Evolution is changes in allele frequencies over time.
2. Primarily it's mutation and natural selection.
3. Life in earth has evolved over about 3 billion years, but multicellular organisms first appeared between 550 and 600 million years ago. But rates of evolution are not constant. Sometimes there can be fast bursts, sometimes there can be long lulls. And they differ from lineage to lineage.
4. Very. These are essential.
5. Very. Evolution takes time.
About the time scale. Some people have this notion of evolution that it happens all at once, as if life was like Pokemon. But every single generation is an important part of evolution, and sometimes it doesn't even take very long for visible changes to be seen when drastic changes in the environment occur. Every time a new living thing is born, they either reproduce or they don't. If they do, their genes are passed on to the next generation. If some traits reduce the chances of reproduction, they will eventually be weeded out by the trials of life.
As a side note, living thing that have RNA (such as squids) instead of DNA adapt much faster to their environments. Humans have DNA, which is more resistant to changes. In fact, our bodies even have systems in place to correct changes when they do happen. Modern medicine and technology has increased our chances of survival as well, so humans will likely remain pretty much the same for a very long time. At least, until we start getting into genetic editing and take evolution into our own hands.
Quote from: Blackleaf on August 15, 2017, 04:01:42 PM
As a side note, living thing that have RNA (such as squids) instead of DNA adapt much faster to their environments. Humans have DNA, which is more resistant to changes.
You need to go back and research that again because you misunderstood whatever it is you read. Coleoids like every other known living organism have DNA. They just have a more effective means of RNA editing than most other species.
Quote from: Baruch on August 15, 2017, 07:00:42 AM
3. What time-scale?
Development is over a lifetime. Evolution is over billions of years.
It doesn't have to take billions of years, by any means.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq9A9OctSts
a great mystical being floats above the entire universe....seeing it as it is but a small town...knowing all and moving time and people to suit his desires....he demands babies be killed and little girls be raped for him, winks at donkey and goat fucking but draws the line at shaving your beard or wearing polyester.....
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 07:21:15 AM1. Evolution occurs over billions of years - and that this time frame is absolutely necessary. Is this an accurate understanding?
My young earth creationist sense is tingling.
Quote from: Hydra009 on August 15, 2017, 10:16:05 PM
My young earth creationist sense is tingling.
Paranoia ... let him speak for himself, before you kick him to the curb.
Quote from: aitm on August 15, 2017, 07:50:05 PM
a great mystical being floats above the entire universe....seeing it as it is but a small town...knowing all and moving time and people to suit his desires....he demands babies be killed and little girls be raped for him, winks at donkey and goat fucking but draws the line at shaving your beard or wearing polyester.....
Dogs can't grow beards, so you are safe ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on August 16, 2017, 06:38:22 AM
Dogs can't grow beards, so you are safe ;-)
All is possible with evolution.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/52/28/8c/52288c2c373be1556809f31f57be23d2--old-mans-ducks.jpg)
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 07:21:15 AM
1. Evolution occurs over billions of years - and that this time frame is absolutely necessary. Is this an accurate understanding?
To get from a bacterium to a complex animal? Probably billions are required, but that's not certain.
What we don't know is if our own planet's experience is average or not -- we assume it is on the basis of the principle of mediocrity (that is, we are more likely to be typical of a particular class than extreme), but since we have not yet encountered complex life from a different origin, we cannot say with certainty. We can say that on Earth, it took about half a billion years for the naturally-occurring chemicals of life to develop into something we could unambiguously call living, and that it took three billion years to get from there to the Cambrian Explosion.
Every large animal comes after that point, so once multicellularity and sex are stumbled upon, development is
very rapid -- not billions of years, but millions.
Now, to get from a wolf to a chihuahua only takes a few
thousand years -- that's all the longer it took us through domestication and selective breeding. To get from the now-extinct aurochs to today's modern cattle has only taken about two thousand years.
So really, the answer is no, billions are not
required, but you're better off having them to evolve anything more interesting than a cell.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 07:21:15 AM
2. Could you expand on the mechanism, in terms of whether you believe it is via random mutation over a long period of time with natural selection for example.
Both. They're not mutually exclusive processes. Random mutation happens, natural selection weeds out the random mutations that are less beneficial, and selects for the ones that are more beneficial. Probably one of the best attested examples observed -- not theorized or inferred from the fossil record, but actually observed in the field -- is that of the peppered moths of England's industrial regions. before the Industrial Revolution, the black peppered moth was not known -- the first live specimen was not caught until 1848. By 1895, the black peppered moth accounted for 98% of the peppered moth population because as industrial pollution darkened their usual perches with soot and other pollutants, the dark coloration blended better and the white moths became preferentially targeted by predators. Industrial melanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_melanism) is a well-understood and frequently observed process.
It's worth noting that with clean air legislation in place, the white moth is making a comeback, confirming that pollution was the driving factor. Evolution by mutation and natural selection explains this perfectly. No other theory does.
It only took a few decades to transform foxes into something very much like dogs. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox)
QuoteThe Russian domesticated red fox is a domesticated form of the red fox (Vulpes vulpes). They are the result of an experiment which was designed to demonstrate the power of selective breeding to transform species, as described by Charles Darwin in On the Origin of Species.[1] The experiment was purposefully designed to replicate the process that produced dogs from wolves, by recording the changes in foxes, when in each generation only the most tame foxes were allowed to breed. In short order the descendant foxes became tamer and more dog-like.[2][3]
The program was started in 1959 in the Soviet Union by zoologist Dmitry Belyayev.[2], it has been in continuous operation since. Today, the experiment is under the supervision of Lyudmila Trut, in Russia, at the Institute of Cytology and Genetics in Novosibirsk.[4][5][3]
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 16, 2017, 03:59:49 PM
It only took a few decades to transform foxes into something very much like dogs. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox)
They tried that with silver foxes, making them more docile. The breed went to shit. Just like domestic dogs.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 16, 2017, 04:09:11 PM
They tried that with silver foxes, making them more docile. The breed went to shit. Just like domestic dogs.
Well, hell, if they don't shit they'll explode!
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 16, 2017, 04:09:11 PM
They tried that with silver foxes, making them more docile. The breed went to shit. Just like domestic dogs.
So far, only species that were initially defective, have been domesticated by breeding. Horses are defective, even in ancient times. Zebras have never been trained. And even domesticated species can go feral under selected circumstances.
Quote from: A Shia Muslim on August 15, 2017, 06:37:27 AM
In order to try to obtain an understanding of what the forum as a whole believes pertaining to the theory of evolution, i would like to ask the following questions:
1. What do you understand by Evolution?
2. What mechanism do you believe is required?
3. What time-scale?
4. How important is 2
5. How important is 3.
Thank you - and a discussion can follow after i receive enough responses!
Answers, (though I doubt you will accept or understand them)
1. Evolution is the gradual adjustment of a species to changing conditions.
2. Natural Selection is the process; mutations are the method .
3. The time scale varies. In unchanging conditions, it is slow. In challenging times, it is faster.
4. 2 and 3 are both important.