https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
So in what way is this article biased?
We have no common basis for discussing Sharia unless we both understand ...
"ikhlÄá¹£ al-tawḥīd" vs "sharÄ'i sam'iyyÄt"
"ikhlÄá¹£ al-'amal" vs "sharÄ'i' aqliyyÄt"
Well, it is overly sanitised. No surprises here. Wikipedia is edited by all and sundry. Anyone can do it.
Here is what is missing:
Since its founding in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood (Hizb al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) has profoundly influenced the political life of the Middle East.
Its motto is telling: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope
http://www.meforum.org/687/the-muslim-brotherhoods-conquest-of-europe
Quote from: pr126 on August 12, 2017, 11:56:40 AM
Well, it is overly sanitised. No surprises here. Wikipedia is edited by all and sundry. Anyone can do it.
Here is what is missing:
Since its founding in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood (Hizb al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) has profoundly influenced the political life of the Middle East.
Its motto is telling: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope
http://www.meforum.org/687/the-muslim-brotherhoods-conquest-of-europe
Yes, but this string is primarily for Ibn Khaldun .. so we can build a fence around his Torah
You know I am not an apologist for anyone ;-)
What the non-Muslims do not realize is that sharia is not just for Muslims.
Sharia is to dominate non-Muslims as well if it manages to become law in non-Muslim countries.
How can it happen?
In one word, demography.
I predict that by the end of the century Europe will be Muslim majority.
Quote from: pr126 on August 12, 2017, 12:06:23 PM
What the non-Muslims do not realize is that sharia is not just for Muslims.
Sharia is to dominate non-Muslims as well if it manages to become law in non-Muslim countries.
How can it happen?
In one word, demography.
I predict that Europe by the end of the century will be Muslim majority.
To repeat ...
QuoteWe have no common basis for discussing Sharia unless we both understand ...
"ikhlÄá¹£ al-tawḥīd" vs "sharÄ'i sam'iyyÄt"
"ikhlÄá¹£ al-'amal" vs "sharÄ'i' aqliyyÄt"
I do think culture matters somewhat. And Western culture is a sentimental favorite. But there is a lot of variety among humans. At some point, any given culture will become as dead as ancient Egypt, and just exist as a Coptic shadow. Do you really want the Iraqis still building ziggurats and having the annual prostitution faire for Ishtar?
Personally, I couldn't care less if the Europeans (culturally) are all Nordic or African. Stranger things have happened. Gentiles have picked up an obscure Jewish sect and converted it into a world-beating movement.
Quote from: pr126 on August 12, 2017, 12:06:23 PM
What the non-Muslims do not realize is that sharia is not just for Muslims.
Sharia is to dominate non-Muslims as well if it manages to become law in non-Muslim countries.
How can it happen?
In one word, demography.
I predict that by the end of the century Europe will be Muslim majority.
Sort of the "One election, once" idea?
QuoteI predict that by the end of the century Europe will be Muslim majority.
That's nice, but actual experts at demographics completely disagree with you.
Overall, all religions are suppose to make gains globally while secularlists and atheists stay roughly where they are, due to the fact that we on average have less children than Christians, Muslims and Hindus. If you want to "combat" that, get to having more children, or adopt children, or become a teacher or something.
However at most, Muslims are estimated to make up about 15%-20% of the population. The next great migration to Europe will likely come from Christian Africa, who will make up 4 in 10 global Christians. And African Christianity, which is heavily influenced by animism and witchcraft belief, will not be an improvement over Islam.
Long story short, you done goofed Europe when you made 3/4th the world your territory and exploited the people for generation, as well as took actions that directly lead to religious fundamentalists assuming power across the ex-territories. Now us younger generations have to pay for your mistakes, while you get to sit back and blame everyone else for your mistakes (and you get to die before the real fruits of your sick labours pay off). So thank you for ruining the world for the rest of us... and that goes well beyond post-colonialism (*cough* *cough* Global Climate Change...)
Quote from: Shiranu on August 12, 2017, 05:13:52 PM
That's nice, but actual experts at demographics completely disagree with you.
Overall, all religions are suppose to make gains globally while secularlists and atheists stay roughly where they are, due to the fact that we on average have less children than Christians, Muslims and Hindus. If you want to "combat" that, get to having more children, or adopt children, or become a teacher or something.
However at most, Muslims are estimated to make up about 15%-20% of the population. The next great migration to Europe will likely come from Christian Africa, who will make up 4 in 10 global Christians. And African Christianity, which is heavily influenced by animism and witchcraft belief, will not be an improvement over Islam.
Long story short, you done goofed Europe when you made 3/4th the world your territory and exploited the people for generation, as well as took actions that directly lead to religious fundamentalists assuming power across the ex-territories. Now us younger generations have to pay for your mistakes, while you get to sit back and blame everyone else for your mistakes (and you get to die before the real fruits of your sick labours pay off). So thank you for ruining the world for the rest of us... and that goes well beyond post-colonialism (*cough* *cough* Global Climate Change...)
Forgive me for not having a houseful of surviving children...
Actually, doesn't that mean that all advanced societies doom themselves by helping other raise children who otherwise would have died? Maybe we should withhold medications?
Quote from: Cavebear on August 12, 2017, 05:28:07 PM
Forgive me for not having a houseful of surviving children...
I'm not judging, I more than likely won't have children either between my terrible irl ability to connect with people and mental illness in my family.
To your second post: Not necessarily. Education means most Christians and Muslims in the West become more and more moderate and modernized, even if they still believe in God/Allah. It may take a generation or two for the new culture to set in, but you can say that for literally any group that has moved into a new region, both in Europe and globally. It happened in Rome, it happened in China, it happened in India, it happened in Central Mexico, it happened in the South West, in the Midwest, in the East coast, the West coast, South America... it literally has happened everywhere. Shit, in the United States our entire history has been an example of new immigrants coming in, struggling to adapt to our culture for a few generations, and then once the next wave starts being fully integrated and complaining about how the next guy is refusing to adapt.
Yes, sometimes civilizations fall... but what rises is almost always something even better. And I think we have reached a point where civilization is so globalized it cannot really "fall" in the old way it use to, I don't foresee any new dark ages. What is best is to stay the course of progress we are making and make sure that the children of anyone who wants to join that path are properly educated and informed. Yes, there will be bad seeds, but that exists in every facet of life. That simply is life. What we have to do is accept this and move on, instead of bringing progress to a halt because if everything isn't perfect, there is no point in striving for excellence.
This is what pr doesn't understand; giving in to fear and bigotry is giving them exactly what they want, and it's cutting our collective noses off to smite our own faces. Unity is what makes us stronger in the end, and unity is like the ocean... there is no point standing on the shore, throwing punches at the waves and expecting to push the sea back so you can walk across it. Even if it seems you are winning, it is just the tides receding and preparing to indifferently come right back at you. You can either fight a losing battle and dig your heels into the sand, or accept the reality that the world will intermingle and cultures flow, and just do your best to work with what you have to make the world a better place. Accepting the ocean exists and building a boat to flow with it will take you much further than digging into the shore and hoping to push the ocean back.
Well, I was reacting to the "you done goofed" comment. It seemed like you were laughing at us for providing medicines, food and water pipes to 3rd world countries.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 12, 2017, 06:17:11 PM
Well, I was reacting to the "you done goofed" comment. It seemed like you were laughing at us for providing medicines, food and water pipes to 3rd world countries.
Also provided dictators, religious fanatics, unstable and corrupt governments, colonialism and slavery for several hundred years, national borders with no regard for ethnic and religious boundaries leading to genocides and massive power struggles keeping the countries destabilized even when we aren't destabilizing them for our own agendas...
I could go on, but the point is European interference, like Chinese, Muslim, Indian, whoever interference and colonialism, is biting us in the ass now and it's like always done far more harm than good. History repeating itself like always.
I laugh because the alternative is to cry.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 12, 2017, 06:28:31 PM
Also provided dictators, religious fanatics, unstable and corrupt governments, colonialism and slavery for several hundred years, national borders with no regard for ethnic and religious boundaries leading to genocides and massive power struggles keeping the countries destabilized even when we aren't destabilizing them for our own agendas...
I could go on, but the point is European interference, like Chinese, Muslim, Indian, whoever interference and colonialism, is biting us in the ass now and it's like always done far more harm than good. History repeating itself like always.
I laugh because the alternative is to cry.
No disagreement here. I know too much history. But bloody conquest, torture, slavery, and arbitrary national boundaries didn't start with Europe... And my ancestors were English peasant serfs who couldn't leave the farms they worked...
Quote from: Shiranu on August 12, 2017, 05:13:52 PM
That's nice, but actual experts at demographics completely disagree with you.
Overall, all religions are suppose to make gains globally while secularlists and atheists stay roughly where they are, due to the fact that we on average have less children than Christians, Muslims and Hindus. If you want to "combat" that, get to having more children, or adopt children, or become a teacher or something.
However at most, Muslims are estimated to make up about 15%-20% of the population. The next great migration to Europe will likely come from Christian Africa, who will make up 4 in 10 global Christians. And African Christianity, which is heavily influenced by animism and witchcraft belief, will not be an improvement over Islam.
Long story short, you done goofed Europe when you made 3/4th the world your territory and exploited the people for generation, as well as took actions that directly lead to religious fundamentalists assuming power across the ex-territories. Now us younger generations have to pay for your mistakes, while you get to sit back and blame everyone else for your mistakes (and you get to die before the real fruits of your sick labours pay off). So thank you for ruining the world for the rest of us... and that goes well beyond post-colonialism (*cough* *cough* Global Climate Change...)
Karma then? Cavebear will be triggered.
Hate all Europeans, love all non-Europeans then? Isn't that just bigotry of one kind vs another. I don't find anything Progressive in that.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 12, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
Actually, doesn't that mean that all advanced societies doom themselves by helping other raise children who otherwise would have died? Maybe we should withhold medications?
Mission civilatrice strikes again ;-( And I know you were being rhetorical. All comes down to Col Kurtz, and him losing his mind because the Viet Cong cut off the arms of children who received vaccinations from the Americans. Yes, non-1st World people are so superior ;-( The Ugly American goes psycho ... won't be a good thing for anyone. Don't think Charlie Sheen can save us this time.
@Barouch. Everything is bias . naturally they’re . yes bias , and? and what?
The article contains errors of facts , propaganda .
the sources it uses are different from mine . I come by way of the negotiating table . what is put on the negotiating table is not relevant. What is said is not either . what is not put and what is not said is what is negotiated and discussed. For example the bit about OMB building hospitals .
untold tens of billions of grants and thats all the OMB can show . OMB peseants with donkey driven cart past from the rural areas living the life .not enviosu or anything here . rather amussed . btw they are fighting over money right now .
.
if the fund to build hospital/schools is in the west that is clean money . The Chieftain of the OMB would want that money untouched. He pockets all that money. Not a single penny spent on the hospital . unclean laundered money pays partially for the hospital . the regime gets his cut and the regime cronies , all depts. of regime get their cuts .you can’t start a hospital just like that . that shit about building hospital goes on the negotiating table to process grants from west and line teh pocket of OMB cahoons. . then come OMB employees . nature of license . Look dangerous talk . move on Barouch. You’ve no idea where it will lead you.
Hospitals and schools, you got to be kidding . such talk is not for little people.,
You say , no basis for discussion if so and so. Okay bye bye
What’s wrong with you Barouch . what happened to you ? you open a post , you say come and then you say leave . are you out to drive people nuts ?
The term is a COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROPOSITIONS .the object is to reach a state of agreement or disagreement . without understanding people can not be said to agree or disagree
Not the Torah. What you have to fence is the Secret Kalam for a start .
Okay prophet continue . do an exposition of those terms . tell the people what they are . Barouch I don’t know about you man. why do that to yourself . go on write . tell us . spill , spill .
In Islam, there is no compromise or negotiations.
It is a zero sum game. There are only winners or losers.
There is such a thing as the hudna, and it is always temporary.
When Muslims feel strong enough, all bets are off.
Read Treaty of Hudabiyya. (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/hudaibiya.aspx)
Quote from: pr126 on August 13, 2017, 04:41:48 AM
In Islam, there is no compromise or negotiations.
It is a zero sum game. There are only winners or losers.
There is such a thing as the hudna, and it is always temporary.
When Muslims feel strong enough, all bets are off.
Read Treaty of Hudabiyya. (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/hudaibiya.aspx)
Yes, non-Muslims use armistice also. That is why we are in deep shit in N Korea. It was an armistice in 1953. And most games and sports are win or lose also. Gird up your loins man, you can only die once even if you are Julius Caesar.
@ Baruch:
Way too much non-sequitur.
Quote from: pr126 on August 13, 2017, 10:48:35 AM
@ Baruch:
Way too much non-sequitur.
Rationality is itself a fallacy ... so calling X a fallacy, is simple disingenuity.
You seemed to be complaining that no peace treaty lasts. Of course they don't. If you aren't as stubborn as a Muslim, perhaps you ought to convert already.
Baruch wrote:QuoteYou seemed to be complaining that no peace treaty lasts.
No, that is not what I wrote.
This is what I wrote:
In Islam, there is no compromise or negotiations.
Quote from: pr126 on August 13, 2017, 01:00:50 PM
Baruch wrote:No, that is not what I wrote.
This is what I wrote:
In Islam, there is no compromise or negotiations.
This is true of any ideology, within the scope of the ideology. If you accept Marxism for example, compromise with capitalism is self contradictory. But then this is any closed mindedness .. vs open mindedness. Being open minded is a subset of Western thinking, typically ... but primarily as a way to create an opening under an intellectual tyranny. As soon as Enlightenment gained power, it became closed minded ... just as Scholasticism was. This is part of rhetoric (in university terms) and part of politics. If there were no power, and no politics ... then there would be no tyranny, and we wouldn't have to worry about any POV. It has been noted that in modern physics, String Theory is a kind of tyranny of the mind, justified by academic power, not because of merit.
I happen to agree with you, that negotiation and compromise is a good thing. But then I am not a puritan, I think of opponents, not enemies ... I don't demonize (except in rhetoric). For a puritan, compromise and negotiation, with an enemy, is with evil, and is itself evil. All you can do is annihilate ... like Hitler. As part German, i can't see Hitler as anything but a horribly mistaken puritan, even if his notion of Aryanism was purely fictional.
Quote from: pr126 on August 13, 2017, 01:00:50 PM
Baruch wrote:No, that is not what I wrote.
This is what I wrote:
In Islam, there is no compromise or negotiations.
When matters of existing on Earth are non-negiatable, theists don't care. They just want the next world.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 14, 2017, 02:25:55 AM
When matters of existing on Earth are non-negiatable, theists don't care. They just want the next world.
When you are miserable, you see no way out. When you are a well funded government retiree ... then not so much. Though I am happy for you, you aren't a poster boy for failure (often choosing the wrong parents is the first mistake).
Quote from: Baruch on August 14, 2017, 06:40:12 AM
When you are miserable, you see no way out. When you are a well funded government retiree ... then not so much. Though I am happy for you, you aren't a poster boy for failure (often choosing the wrong parents is the first mistake).
Perhaps having good parents is better than good genes (until you leave home). But tell that to someone with good parents and bad genes who dies young. Or as YOU might say, "The children must retroactively choose their parents better as the angels would do in god's way"...
Isn't obscurity fascinating?
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 11:26:28 AM
Perhaps having good parents is better than good genes (until you leave home). But tell that to someone with good parents and bad genes who dies young. Or as YOU might say, "The children must retroactively choose their parents better as the angels would do in god's way"...
Isn't obscurity fascinating?
Some say ... it is better to have not been born in the first place. Others say, it is better to die young and famous (Achilles and Alexander). I don't know many who look forward to old age.
Bad genes? Don't talk to me, my daughter and the women in her ancestral line have bad genes. My genes are pretty good. And yes, good parents are to be honored. We can only hope for good children ... parenting only goes so far, and usually we are incompetent at it. Probably most of humanity has had bad genes and bad parents. Tragedy runs very deep.
Obscurity? As in "to obscure"? Well, why would you cover things up? ;-) Or did you mean anonymity?
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
Some say ... it is better to have not been born in the first place. Others say, it is better to die young and famous (Achilles and Alexander). I don't know many who look forward to old age.
Bad genes? Don't talk to me, my daughter and the women in her ancestral line have bad genes. My genes are pretty good. And yes, good parents are to be honored. We can only hope for good children ... parenting only goes so far, and usually we are incompetent at it. Probably most of humanity has had bad genes and bad parents. Tragedy runs very deep.
Obscurity? As in "to obscure"? Well, why would you cover things up? ;-) Or did you mean anonymity?
Sometimes it isn't. Is it worthwhile to be be choking to death a few days to have been alive? Some people wouldn't wish that on a rat but would tiny human.
I do not "honor" my parents foe the genes they passed to me and 3 siblings. One died young. I won't. The other 2 are gonna be in-betweeners. Well, any of us could be hit by a bus...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 02:41:47 PM
Sometimes it isn't. Is it worthwhile to be be choking to death a few days to have been alive? Some people wouldn't wish that on a rat but would tiny human.
I do not "honor" my parents foe the genes they passed to me and 3 siblings. One died young. I won't. The other 2 are gonna be in-betweeners. Well, any of us could be hit by a bus...
but there parents who raised you, genetic or not ... did they do a good job?
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 02:45:43 PM
but there parents who raised you, genetic or not ... did they do a good job?
If the child is dying, can you decide about the parents?
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 02:59:05 PM
If the child is dying, can you decide about the parents?
Tragedy is what it is. And no, the parents aren't too relevant at that point ... they didn't get the chance to be. My wife's first pregnancy was miscarriage. I still miss that child.
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 03:05:26 PM
Tragedy is what it is. And no, the parents aren't too relevant at that point ... they didn't get the chance to be. My wife's first pregnancy was miscarriage. I still miss that child.
I'm sorry. But is only anecdotal to the argument.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 03:07:13 PM
I'm sorry. But is only anecdotal to the argument.
Any disagreement, that isn't about flesh and blood, is empty wind.
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 03:10:50 PM
Any disagreement, that isn't about flesh and blood, is empty wind.
I lost a youngest sister. But at an older age.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 03:18:39 PM
I lost a youngest sister. But at an older age.
I remember you told us. And that is harder than losing a pregnancy (unless you are the mother of course). When my mom died, it was long anticipated and inevitable. With the young it isn't that way.
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 03:20:38 PM
I remember you told us. And that is harder than losing a pregnancy (unless you are the mother of course). When my mom died, it was long anticipated and inevitable. With the young it isn't that way.
I understand, vaguely. But sometimes you try to relate as closely as you are able...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 03:28:02 PM
I understand, vaguely. But sometimes you try to relate as closely as you are able...
Big Bang Theory TV show? I am like all 4 of those guys. I am Sheldon Cooper's daddy!
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 04:01:18 PM
Big Bang Theory TV show? I am like all 4 of those guys. I am Sheldon Cooper's daddy!
Never watch the stuff...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 04:02:39 PM
Never watch the stuff...
Your loss. You will never learn how a nerd can pick up a girl, if you miss shows like that ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 04:04:44 PM
Your loss. You will never learn how a nerd can pick up a girl, if you miss shows like that ;-)
Was good at that younger. But learned I was happier without others.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
Was good at that younger. But learned I was happier without others.
First clue ... make sure she is lighter than what you can bench press ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
First clue ... make sure she is lighter than what you can bench press ;-)
And never sleep with someone crazier than you...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 04:12:24 PM
And never sleep with someone crazier than you...
Too late to warn Mr Bobbit!
Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 04:15:16 PM
Too late to warn Mr Bobbit!
As Bill Clinton said, never fall down the Bobbit Hole...