https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/10/15/nietzsche-on-difficulty/
I'm often drawn to writings of philosophers who speak to me about my own problems. It shows me that people from distant generations and cultures, all grapple with the same things as me. Nietzsche was an amazingly brilliant man, imo...and he tapped into some very deep thoughts when it came to pleasure and pain. He seemed to think that without pain, there can't be pleasure, or at least...a balance of the two. And that he had little pity for people in painful situations, because eventually, the pain and suffering would bring them the will ''to endure.'' I've often thought of what life might be like to live it without any suffering of any kind. Well, the occasional flu would be acceptable and natural, but the pain of a broken heart, or losing a loved one would be nice to do without. Or would it? Is it essential for us to go through pain, in order to become stronger and ''better for it?''
There's so much insane suffering in the world, though. Wars that make no sense and destroy innocent lives. What grand lesson could those poor people possibly learn from such tragedies? I understand Nietzsche's perceptions, but there are obviously complexities to the whole thing.
What do you think?
Quote from: Deidre32 on July 31, 2017, 10:26:24 PM
https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/10/15/nietzsche-on-difficulty/
I'm often drawn to writings of philosophers who speak to me about my own problems. It shows me that people from distant generations and cultures, all grapple with the same things as me. Nietzsche was an amazingly brilliant man, imo...and he tapped into some very deep thoughts when it came to pleasure and pain. He seemed to think that without pain, there can't be pleasure, or at least...a balance of the two. And that he had little pity for people in painful situations, because eventually, the pain and suffering would bring them the will ''to endure.'' I've often thought of what life might be like to live it without any suffering of any kind. Well, the occasional flu would be acceptable and natural, but the pain of a broken heart, or losing a loved one would be nice to do without. Or would it? Is it essential for us to go through pain, in order to become stronger and ''better for it?''
There's so much insane suffering in the world, though. Wars that make no sense and destroy innocent lives. What grand lesson could those poor people possibly learn from such tragedies? I understand Nietzsche's perceptions, but there are obviously complexities to the whole thing.
What do you think?
If you can look into the Abyss, and survive it staring back into you ... then you are his follower. The odd-balls are the best thinkers, they get out of the box. Recent video bio of Nietzsche ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzcD-LCKuNs
I like this British woman historian ... everything she does is excellent.
The usual spin is that without dark, there can be no distinguishable light; this same sentiment is used with suffering and strife against happiness and wellbeing.
I'm not so sure, I believe there can be grades of happiness and wellbeing, without having any suffering and strife.
On the other hand, I think that if everything is just handed to you without any effort, you won't appreciate it as much if you had to struggle to get whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Giving this, with struggle comes appreciation for ones happiness and wellbeing: You had to work for it.
Quote from: Baruch on July 31, 2017, 10:58:20 PM
If you can look into the Abyss, and survive it staring back into you ... then you are his follower. The odd-balls are the best thinkers, they get out of the box. Recent video bio of Nietzsche ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzcD-LCKuNs
I like this British woman historian ... everything she does is excellent.
Thanks for posting this, I'll watch it tomorrow. I've always been fascinated by Nietzsche.
Quote from: Sal1981 on July 31, 2017, 11:04:12 PM
The usual spin is that without dark, there can be no distinguishable light; this same sentiment is used with suffering and strife against happiness and wellbeing.
I'm not so sure, I believe there can be grades of happiness and wellbeing, without having any suffering and strife.
Agree. There doesn't need to be suffering for every moment of pleasure or happiness that we feel. I'm not sure he's speaking in those types of specifics, but good point.
QuoteOn the other hand, I think that if everything is just handed to you without any effort, you won't appreciate it as much if you had to struggle to get whatever it is you're trying to achieve. Giving this, with struggle comes appreciation for ones happiness and wellbeing: You had to work for it.
Yes, without some struggle, there could be no victory. There's a commercial out now showing athletes who ''fail'' and that is the best way to victory, in so many words, is the commercial. But, there's other types of suffering, like deaths of loved ones, or losing a job or a relationship...and I wonder why we must go through such pain ...is there a greater good to be achieved by it all? I guess there is, pain is inevitable, but maybe how long we suffer through it, is up to us?
I have a very big problem with consuming alcohol.
Actually, although i am 28, i am an alcoholic. I do not exaggarate...
I have been consuming alcohol often and intense since i was 18. Often everyday since today. That is, my alcoholism spreads 10 years.
My longest soberity lasts for one year. I was going to a university and there was an activity that occupy my mind.
However, in recent times, for about more than a year, i am spending my time doing nothing other than surfing on the internet and this situation has began to make me to feel tired and boring.
Also i cannot hope about my future. I have no job and diploma, just because of my alcoholism and by the way, i do not want to work at all.
Baruch once said: First survive, second philosophise but i doubt i have depression and from the point of view of my philosophy, working for just enough money for doing a living is meaningless. We have one life and so we do better doing the job that we love but this is often not possible... I dont know what to do. I am living in a world that i dream but this does not reflect the reality.
Do not know what to do, i am thinking of beginning to the uni again after 30 and of course without alcohol that has fucked my life...
anyway just i wanted to tell...
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 01, 2017, 07:32:49 PM
I have a very big problem with consuming alcohol.
Actually, although i am 28, i am an alcoholic. I do not exaggarate...
I have been consuming alcohol often and intense since i was 18. Often everyday since today. That is, my alcoholism spreads 10 years.
My longest soberity lasts for one year. I was going to a university and there was an activity that occupy my mind.
However, in recent times, for about more than a year, i am spending my time doing nothing other than surfing on the internet and this situation has began to make me to feel tired and boring.
Also i cannot hope about my future. I have no job and diploma, just because of my alcoholism and by the way, i do not want to work at all.
Baruch once said: First survive, second philosophise but i doubt i have depression and from the point of view of my philosophy, working for just enough money for doing a living is meaningless. We have one life and so we do better doing the job that we love but this is often not possible... I dont know what to do. I am living in a world that i dream but this does not reflect the reality.
Do not know what to do, i am thinking of beginning to the uni again after 30 and of course without alcohol that has fucked my life...
anyway just i wanted to tell...
Well you seem to have the problem down. It is you. And you are now where you have chosen to be. You made those decisions, not anybody else. And there is only one way to go in a different direction and that is to chose to do it. If you are really unhappy about your life, then change it. If not, quit complaining.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 01, 2017, 07:55:53 PM
Well you seem to have the problem down. It is you. And you are now where you have chosen to be. You made those decisions, not anybody else. And there is only one way to go in a different direction and that is to chose to do it. If you are really unhappy about your life, then change it. If not, quit complaining.
You know alcoholism is a disease. It's not a choice or decision.
At least, mine is so...
It has progressed in the course of time.
I was young and ignorant and i was not aware of my responsibilities...
Actually to be young is a disease : )
I have taken my lessons but now i am wondering whether it is late or not to start university...
I will say hello to life again by refraining from alcohol and i know it is a chronic disease...
i mean, i had been sober for a year and i began and went on to drinking again... it is chronic...
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 01, 2017, 07:32:49 PM
I have a very big problem with consuming alcohol.
Actually, although i am 28, i am an alcoholic. I do not exaggarate...
I have been consuming alcohol often and intense since i was 18. Often everyday since today. That is, my alcoholism spreads 10 years.
My longest soberity lasts for one year. I was going to a university and there was an activity that occupy my mind.
However, in recent times, for about more than a year, i am spending my time doing nothing other than surfing on the internet and this situation has began to make me to feel tired and boring.
Also i cannot hope about my future. I have no job and diploma, just because of my alcoholism and by the way, i do not want to work at all.
Baruch once said: First survive, second philosophise but i doubt i have depression and from the point of view of my philosophy, working for just enough money for doing a living is meaningless. We have one life and so we do better doing the job that we love but this is often not possible... I dont know what to do. I am living in a world that i dream but this does not reflect the reality.
Do not know what to do, i am thinking of beginning to the uni again after 30 and of course without alcohol that has fucked my life...
anyway just i wanted to tell...
((hug)) May I ask, what do you think, if you had to pinpoint it...leads you to escape? Alcohol like anything else is a vice, an escape from reality. Addictions are all escapes from reality. Religion used to be my preferred escape from reality, but religion is ''acceptable'' in our culture, even though it truly causes a person to not deal with reality, to some extent.
What's positive, is that you realize that you have a problem with alcohol, and are looking for answers. I think that's a great start. (And it's never ever too late to start going to college) But, you still have to figure out why you drink so much, because you'll just carry the problem into the university experience. Your drinking will follow you everywhere you go if you don't figure out WHY you drink. I don't really think that people's addictions are their main problems, it's what causes the addictions that are the problems.. The addictions just compound the main problem, you know?
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 01, 2017, 08:22:31 PM
You know alcoholism is a disease. It's not a choice or decision.
At least, mine is so...
It has progressed in the course of time.
I was young and ignorant and i was not aware of my responsibilities...
Actually to be young is a disease : )
I have taken my lessons but now i am wondering whether it is late or not to start university...
I will say hello to life again by refraining from alcohol and i know it is a chronic disease...
i mean, i had been sober for a year and i began and went on to drinking again... it is chronic...
Yes, I know it is a disease. You are hooked and you will always be an alcoholic. But you, and only you, can chose to do something about it. I am a diabetic. I can treat it--or not. My choice. That is your choice--treat it or not. If you want to treat it, then go to somebody who knows how to treat that disease. That's up to you. And it is never too late to do anything you want to do. My wife got her BA in her 50's. Never too late. In any case, I wish you good luck.
Quote from: Deidre32 on August 01, 2017, 08:51:52 PM
((hug)) May I ask, what do you think, if you had to pinpoint it...leads you to escape? Alcohol like anything else is a vice, an escape from reality. Addictions are all escapes from reality. Religion used to be my preferred escape from reality, but religion is ''acceptable'' in our culture, even though it truly causes a person to not deal with reality, to some extent.
What's positive, is that you realize that you have a problem with alcohol, and are looking for answers. I think that's a great start. (And it's never ever too late to start going to college) But, you still have to figure out why you drink so much, because you'll just carry the problem into the university experience. Your drinking will follow you everywhere you go if you don't figure out WHY you drink. I don't really think that people's addictions are their main problems, it's what causes the addictions that are the problems.. The addictions just compound the main problem, you know?
I dont know very well. Maybe i like the feeling alcohol gives.
Maybe i can daydream easier than i am sober : ) Yeap this is the reason and
of course the addiction and physical tolerans has progressed in the course of time.
I have left 3 university department. i couldnt graduate.
The department i have left last was electric-electronics engineering and
education language was in English. But engineering dont feed my intellctual pleasure : )
The conditions in Turkland is very hard. And as far as i know, so is in America.
The world in general including Europe is the same...
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 01, 2017, 09:30:07 PM
I dont know very well. Maybe i like the feeling alcohol gives.
Maybe i can daydream easier than i am sober : ) Yeap this is the reason and
of course the addiction and physical tolerans has progressed in the course of time.
I have left 3 university department. i couldnt graduate.
The department i have left last was electric-electronics engineering and
education language was in English. But engineering dont feed my intellctual pleasure : )
The conditions in Turkland is very hard. And as far as i know, so is in America.
The world in general including Europe is the same...
Well, maybe start slowly, like tell yourself you won't drink for a few hours...then an entire day. It's hard to give up a habit that you've been doing for a long time, but the bigger part is to figure out why you need alcohol to get through your day. It might hurt to explore that, but you're not enjoying your life as much as you can if you're addicted like this.
SoldierofFortune ... try out things on Youtube, see what you like. Every technical and business subject is there. The quality of instruction varies widely.
Yes, you can try again. I was failing at learning Theory of Computation (after work class) way back in about 1983. The text was terrible, I still have it. I found some nice videos on Youtube, from India, and it is a night vs day difference.
When I was learning Hebrew, only 10 years ago (I was 51) ... I found two different textbooks, which fed two different needs, I wanted both. Find something you can stick to, and dig in ... one day at a time.
Nietzchie is peachy but Sartre is smarter. And both are premptious idiots.. I've read them all and I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of them doing any practical thinking.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 09, 2017, 06:05:37 AM
Nietzchie is peachy but Sartre is smarter. And both are premptious idiots.. I've read them all and I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of them doing any practical thinking.
Yeah, but the Sartre character that could have wet dreams on command I found quite interesting.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 09, 2017, 06:05:37 AM
Nietzchie is peachy but Sartre is smarter. And both are premptious idiots.. I've read them all and I wouldn't give a wooden nickle for any of them doing any practical thinking.
You actually got thru Being & Nothingness (by Sartre)? Incredible!
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2017, 11:47:10 AM
Yeah, but the Sartre character that could have wet dreams on command I found quite interesting.
I must have been given the abridged book...
Quote from: Cavebear on August 09, 2017, 01:52:59 PM
I must have been given the abridged book...
Now that I think of it, it could have been Camus I was thinking of. The novel was set in WWII, with the French resistance, I think. One of the soldiers was talking about having wet dreams on command--that's why he liked naps. I has been a long long time ago that I read it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 09, 2017, 07:30:06 PM
Now that I think of it, it could have been Camus I was thinking of. The novel was set in WWII, with the French resistance, I think. One of the soldiers was talking about having wet dreams on command--that's why he liked naps. I has been a long long time ago that I read it.
My philosophy 101 lecturer claimed that Aquinas proved there was a god, and if you disagreed with him, you filed the course. I managed a C by regurgurating enough on the exams to satisfy his religious ideas. I couldn't do what he REALLY wanted which was total agreement.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 12, 2017, 06:41:30 AM
My philosophy 101 lecturer claimed that Aquinas proved there was a god, and if you disagreed with him, you filed the course. I managed a C by regurgurating enough on the exams to satisfy his religious ideas. I couldn't do what he REALLY wanted which was total agreement.
Humanities professors are like that ;-(
Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2017, 01:08:55 PM
You actually got thru Being & Nothingness (by Sartre)? Incredible!
No, actually I read the Cliff's Notes and could tell neither of them had anything to say I agreed with. Saved me a lot of screaming out loud at people who were no longer around to yell at.
And, interestingly, I searched for "what famous philosopher would I agree with" http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=PhilosophyGuys. (http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=PhilosophyGuys.) Took the quiz. I vaguely thought it would be Hume, but it turned out to be Kant 100% (Hume was 2nd at 75%). For any interested parties, 3rd, 4th, and 5th were Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinus, but those were all below 50%. Plato scored 0%!
I'll have to re-read Kant to see if the quiz makes sense.
You Kant do that!
Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 02:56:05 PM
You Kant do that!
Seriously take the quiz. It was very good and informative. Why not, are you a Jesuit?
Quote from: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 05:09:56 PM
Seriously take the quiz. It was very good and informative. Why not, are you a Jesuit?
Choose Your Philosopher
Really? Kept every item as middle priority. I disagreed with every item (as phrased) except ...
18. Ideally Man should be connected to his craft; I agreed
I scored Marx as #1 ... then ...
Descartes, Aristotle, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Plato, Hume and Sartre. Marx = 100%, Hume and Sartre = 50%, others in between. But Hegel took the bottom at 0%. So you are going to have to give more details, for me to compare. My per-assessment guess was Nietzsche. The relative placement of Kierkegaard vs Sartre made sense, because Kierkegaard is a theist existentialist, and Sartre is an atheist existentialist. High marks for Descartes and Aristotle are not a surprise. Relatively low for Plato and Hume are not a surprise, Plato is too much of an authoritarian, and Hume too much of a skeptic. Shame Etienne wasn't around to see this ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 07:03:02 PM
Choose Your Philosopher
Really? Kept every item as middle priority. I disagreed with every item (as phrased) except ...
18. Ideally Man should be connected to his craft; I agreed
I scored Marx as #1 ... then ...
Descartes, Aristotle, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Plato, Hume and Sartre. Marx = 100%, Hume and Sartre = 50%, others in between. But Hegel took the bottom at 0%. So you are going to have to give more details, for me to compare. My per-assessment guess was Nietzsche. The relative placement of Kierkegaard vs Sartre made sense, because Kierkegaard is a theist existentialist, and Sartre is an atheist existentialist. High marks for Descartes and Aristotle are not a surprise. Relatively low for Plato and Hume are not a surprise, Plato is too much of an authoritarian, and Hume too much of a skeptic. Shame Etienne wasn't around to see this ;-)
All as middle priority? Well, that too is a choice... You commie, LOL!
Quote from: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 07:14:53 PM
All as middle priority? Well, that too is a choice... You commie, LOL!
Yeah, so I am a rational, organic, existentialist ... with theistic reservations about the condition of present society.
Quote from: Baruch on August 26, 2017, 07:21:59 PM
Yeah, so I am a rational, organic, existentialist ... with theistic reservations about the condition of present society.
You played the quiz to get a result. You can't be Hume and Sartre. And mostly, you can't be theist and Marxist.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 03:40:36 AM
You played the quiz to get a result. You can't be Hume and Sartre. And mostly, you can't be theist and Marxist.
Or maybe, Hamlet, you have gotten too comfortable being bound up in your nut shell? You scored very high as rationalist ... but as I recall, from Pilgrim's Progress, the rationalist is a sad figure from early in the pilgrimage ... bound up in a cage built from his own logic.
No, didn't play it at all. That is exactly how it came out. Of course maybe as you surmised, the test is weird. I have never been a Marxist.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 26, 2017, 12:30:22 PM
No, actually I read the Cliff's Notes and could tell neither of them had anything to say I agreed with. Saved me a lot of screaming out loud at people who were no longer around to yell at.
And, interestingly, I searched for "what famous philosopher would I agree with" http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=PhilosophyGuys. (http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=PhilosophyGuys.) Took the quiz. I vaguely thought it would be Hume, but it turned out to be Kant 100% (Hume was 2nd at 75%). For any interested parties, 3rd, 4th, and 5th were Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinus, but those were all below 50%. Plato scored 0%!
I'll have to re-read Kant to see if the quiz makes sense.
I took this quiz:
http://selectsmart.com/PHILOSOPHY/
My results show that I'm mostly aligned with Jeremy Bentham
Sal ... very interesting results for you. You got so many more results than I did. Anyone who scored 76% with Spinoza can't be all bad ;-) But Nel Noddings ... isn't that some obscure British food? Like Yorkshire pudding?
Quote from: Sal1981 on August 31, 2017, 06:57:08 AM
I took this quiz:
http://selectsmart.com/PHILOSOPHY/
My results show that I'm mostly aligned with Jeremy Bentham
OK, I had to look him up. Not bad, but I think where I disagree is about Natural Rights. He seems to have thought Natural Rights being not god-given (of course) not also somehow not being human based. I'm not sure where that goes. I like his ideas about "legal fictions" though.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 09:37:52 AM
OK, I had to look him up. Not bad, but I think where I disagree is about Natural Rights. He seems to have thought Natural Rights being not god-given (of course) not also somehow not being human based. I'm not sure where that goes. I like his ideas about "legal fictions" though.
Bentham is the founder of Utilitarianism ... and when he died he had his body taxidermied and put on display at his college, as an object lesson ;-(
Utilitarians are the predecessors of the neb-liberals. There is a calculus, of the greatest good for the greatest number ... but not one that Newton knew. In America under consumerism, this has turned into Walmart sells cheaper, ignore the unemployed Americans who can't shop there anymore, they have to go to Family Dollar.
Quote from: Baruch on August 31, 2017, 10:48:55 AM
Bentham is the founder of Utilitarianism ... and when he died he had his body taxidermied and put on display at his college, as an object lesson ;-(
Utilitarians are the predecessors of the neb-liberals. There is a calculus, of the greatest good for the greatest number ... but not one that Newton knew. In America under consumerism, this has turned into Walmart sells cheaper, ignore the unemployed Americans who can't shop there anymore, they have to go to Family Dollar.
Your cynicism outdoes mine. I tip me hat, Gov.
On the other hand, yer also full of it...
Anyway, I'm a Progressive, not a Liberal. I like Workfare, public works to improve the access of information, travel, and health to all ;for my ultimate benefit.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 11:22:38 AM
Your cynicism outdoes mine. I tip me hat, Gov.
On the other hand, yer also full of it...
Anyway, I'm a Progressive, not a Liberal. I like Workfare, public works to improve the access of information, travel, and health to all ;for my ultimate benefit.
So you are a CCC FDR Democrat? What time capsule did you crawl out of? That might make the poor develop callouses!
Quote from: Baruch on August 31, 2017, 12:54:28 PM
So you are a CCC FDR Democrat? What time capsule did you crawl out of? That might make the poor develop callouses!
I'm probably pretty damn close to FDR and CCC. If I had to choose some leader to have again, FDR might well be it. Can you name a better?
Quote from: Cavebear on August 31, 2017, 02:24:00 PM
I'm probably pretty damn close to FDR and CCC. If I had to choose some leader to have again, FDR might well be it. Can you name a better?
Ironic ... because I was sure you were a Wendell Wilkie man ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on August 31, 2017, 08:56:36 PM
Ironic ... because I was sure you were a Wendell Wilkie man ;-)
Wendell Wilkie was a fine candidate but an uncertain leader. One of those times when either candidate would have suited the country well generally in peacetime. And had I been alive then, I don't know which I would have voted for. In hindsight, FDR was better for the WWII challenge.
Willkie had strengths. He was courageous and somewhat independent, but worked well with legislators. He would have worked well with industry to produce the armaments the US needed in the war. Compared to many Presidents, he would have done better.
But FDR's international experience and ability to manage other strong international leaders gives him the edge. That doesn't mean Willkie couldn't have grown into the job. He was a fast learner and an intelligent one. But FDR was prepared with 2 terms experience in managing the government in 1940 and Willkie was not.
It was a time for experience AND talent, not just either.