It worked out just fine. What's the problem?
Bernie Sanders, watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FxQGlTwOvM
One could also posit Chile under Pinochet as proof capitalism doesn't work, or Somalia as proof libertarianism doesn't work.
Picking out an example of grossly mismanaged socialism does not mean socialism per se is doomed to failure.
That's as intellectually dishonest and boneheadedly ignorant as pointing out a Muslim killing innocent people and saying "See? All Muslims are terrorists." Only idiots do that, wouldn't you agree?
By the way, there is an opposition party in Venezuela. Read all about them:
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/13270
Unfortunately the CIA is all powerful. Socialism would have worked everywhere, even the Soviet Union and Mao's China .. except for the damn Capitalists, those kids in their van with the stupid dog ;-) Maybe being anti-social isn't a long term system of governance ... you have to have a status quo to overthrow. Might as wish for continuous anarchism aka barbarism.
The Latin American countries went up and down with dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy and democracy ... since the time of the liberation from Spain or Portugal. This started before the Bolshevik Revolution. The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects .... including United Fruit. The US has always been bananas about Latin America and the Caribbean. And don't forget it is all about the tropical fruits ... including coca ... and pineapple smuggled out of Latin America to Hawaii. Fortunately coco was transplanted to W Africa where we have a plan B.
Sorry that Venezuela is suffering ... but squirrel, what about the corruption in Brazil? Ecuador and Bolivia think they are independent. They should invite in the Chinese Army ... and see how long it takes for them to leave. I am sure they are keen to join the NORKS with missiles and nukes ... to kill all the White people. I welcome our Chinese overlords. The Latin Americans will make a good food supply for a people who will eat anything and everything.
Damn the Yankees, full fried rice ahead! The Center won't hold ... the current world system is going down in flame, everywhere.
Quote from: Baruch on July 31, 2017, 06:33:40 AM
Unfortunately the CIA is all powerful. Socialism would have worked everywhere, even the Soviet Union and Mao's China .. except for the damn Capitalists, those kids in their van with the stupid dog ;-) Maybe being anti-social isn't a long term system of governance ... you have to have a status quo to overthrow. Might as wish for continuous anarchism aka barbarism.
The Latin American countries went up and down with dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy and democracy ... since the time of the liberation from Spain or Portugal. This started before the Bolshevik Revolution. The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects .... including United Fruit. The US has always been bananas about Latin America and the Caribbean. And don't forget it is all about the tropical fruits ... including coca ... and pineapple smuggled out of Latin America to Hawaii. Fortunately coco was transplanted to W Africa where we have a plan B.
Sorry that Venezuela is suffering ... but squirrel, what about the corruption in Brazil? Ecuador and Bolivia think they are independent. They should invite in the Chinese Army ... and see how long it takes for them to leave. I am sure they are keen to join the NORKS with missiles and nukes ... to kill all the White people. I welcome our Chinese overlords. The Latin Americans will make a good food supply for a people who will eat anything and everything.
Damn the Yankees, full fried rice ahead! The Center won't hold ... the current world system is going down in flame, everywhere.
----The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects-----
Actually, There is no importance whether S. America s regimes are communizm or not. Impreial USA s concern is to exploit resources...
The same thing happened in the occupation of the Afghanistan and Iraq. Not that USA s concern was to give them democtacy...But the problem was to exploit petrolium and to realize Greater MIddle East Initiative...
Wasnt 9-11 used for to occupy the Afghanistan. This was just a cover and to spread Islamic terrorism fear to people...
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on July 31, 2017, 07:04:00 AM
----The communist meme provided a new cover for the usual suspects-----
Actually, There is no importance whether S. America s regimes are communizm or not. Impreial USA s concern is to exploit resources...
The same thing happened in the occupation of the Afghanistan and Iraq. Not that USA s concern was to give them democtacy...But the problem was to exploit petrolium and to realize Greater MIddle East Initiative...
Wasnt 9-11 used for to occupy the Afghanistan. This was just a cover and to spread Islamic terrorism fear to people...
More recently yes. Resource exploitation is what ape men do. Either we get to exploit you and your resources, or someone else will. Nothing changed with the UN charter, just that Anglophones were on top. And you are correct about Afghanistan etc. Part of the Great Game going on between Anglophones and Russiaphones since the mid-19th century. Ever read the book or see the movie ... Kim, by Rudyard Kipling? One of my all time favorites.
Anything a government tells you the opposite is probably the truth. It is part of governance of the sheeple. Bleet, bleet.
So socialism if done correctly is just fine.
But so far nobody worked it out how to do it “correctlyâ€.
Socialism is communism lite. That didn’t work either. The USSR proved that.
It seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.
Communism doesn’t work.
Imagine that a surgeon earns the same as the janitor.
Where is the incentive to become a surgeon?
Quote from: pr126 on July 31, 2017, 07:16:49 AM
So socialism if done correctly is just fine.
But so far nobody worked it out how to do it “correctlyâ€.
Socialism is communism lite. That didn’t work either. The USSR proved that.
It seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.
Communism doesn’t work.
Imagine that a surgeon earns the same as the janitor.
Where is the incentive to become a surgeon?
There is something like ''Universal Basic Income''
It is being applied in Finlandia if i didnt hear wrong.
But this is not socialism of course.
QuoteIt seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.
Hahah. Hahahahaha. Hahahahahahahahaahahahahaaa....
No.
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.
Socialism, communism, democracy, republic, and so on..................none of these terms mean much. What I mean by that is it is only fully understood what each term means only by the person using them. The USA has been labeled a democracy, but has never been one. It is more of a representative republic. The Soviet Union was labeled as a communist country while it was really a totalitarian dictatorship. I would say there has not been a 'true' government of any of those labels. They are all blends and are all unique to that country. So, socialism in one country is different than socialism in another country, which is different than socialism in the next country, and so on. One has to define what one means by each of those labels to have a meaningful discussion about them.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 31, 2017, 09:09:23 AM
Socialism, communism, democracy, republic, and so on..................none of these terms mean much. What I mean by that is it is only fully understood what each term means only by the person using them. The USA has been labeled a democracy, but has never been one. It is more of a representative republic. The Soviet Union was labeled as a communist country while it was really a totalitarian dictatorship. I would say there has not been a 'true' government of any of those labels. They are all blends and are all unique to that country. So, socialism in one country is different than socialism in another country, which is different than socialism in the next country, and so on. One has to define what one means by each of those labels to have a meaningful discussion about them.
Those terms do tend to get confused. In the worst case, I've seen capitalism referred to as democracy.
People tend to get caught up in ideologies and tend to see their own ideology as a form of perfection and don't look at the actual advantages and shortcomings in the real world. Ideological descriptions in and of themselves tend to be descriptions in the context of a perfect world.
Capitalism or socialism can be perfect, I suppose. But only when excluding the reality of human nature. Capitalism can work perfectly without the reality of greed and corruption. But greed and corruption do exist under any form of government, capitalism or socialism. A few years ago there was a meme going around, "Greed is good," and in terms of only the accumulation of personal wealth to the exclusion of all other social needs, it would be. In fact, that's the definition of "greed." But who wants to live in a society that ignores the well being of society? Well, the greedy do, at least the advantaged greedy, I suppose, but lets not make greed into a virtue when it clearly is not.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with the ideology of socialism. It pretty much reflects one of mankind's genetic advantages, working together as a group to protect all the individuals in the group. But in the context of the reality of greed and corruption, it can fall apart, just as does capitalism. Each ideology works, but only without the corrupting influences. These influences tend to be ignored by ideologists, or in the worst cases, whitewashed as virtues as in "greed is good" or "to each according to his need."
Criticisms of government tend to be seen as attacks on a cherished ideology, when in fact most criticisms of government are for its failure to control corruption or failure to mitigate or even worse, create adverse behaviors that weaken society. Adverse behaviors bred by overzealous ideologists are ignored. A few years back, when American society started to become more aware of corporate buying of political influence, the term "crony capitalism" became briefly popular. Ideological capitalists used the term to defend capitalism by saying crony capitalism wasn't capitalism. But capitalism describes the accumulation of wealth. It makes no provision of how the wealth is accumulated, be it by honest labor, or tax payers bailing out corrupt bankers. Wealth is wealth. It makes no difference to account ledgers how the wealth is achieved.
Any ideology can become too much of a good thing with enormously bad consequences to any society. Ideologies can sound good in philosophical discussion, but in a real world, they never seem to work as perfectly as they are described.
Quote from: pr126 on July 31, 2017, 07:56:01 AM
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.
So has capitalism. Should we abandon it as well?
Quote from: pr126 on July 31, 2017, 07:56:01 AM
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.
I would agree that communism, like fascism, has produced nothing but death, suffering, poverty, hardship and misery.
But communism is not socialism, and socialism is not communism. Just like fascism is not capitalism, and capitalism is not fascism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THPe3D69vJ0&t=82s
Quote from: pr126 on July 31, 2017, 07:16:49 AM
So socialism if done correctly is just fine.
But so far nobody worked it out how to do it “correctlyâ€.
Socialism is communism lite. That didn’t work either. The USSR proved that.
It seems that capitalism, while not perfect, has the least of corpses littering the streets.
Communism doesn’t work.
Imagine that a surgeon earns the same as the janitor.
Where is the incentive to become a surgeon?
The idea comes from the French Revolution. Some want Robespierre working overtime, forever. Of course that is no way to run any society. This is simply revenge fantasy. I wish all our moderate socialist friends, would move to Cuba. Get to work, harvesting sugar cane. Of they can alway do a Lee Harvey Oswald ;-(
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on July 31, 2017, 07:19:37 AM
There is something like ''Universal Basic Income''
It is being applied in Finlandia if i didnt hear wrong.
But this is not socialism of course.
Welfare isn't socialism either. Everybody seems to want it, but nobody can define it. Lenin was quite clear that the people cannot be allowed to lead, only the revolutionary cadre can do that ;-)
If there is a universal basic income, then all reproduction not licensed by the State has to stop ... you can't create indebtedness of society, without permission.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 31, 2017, 11:43:22 AM
So has capitalism. Should we abandon it as well?
Yes .. nothing works with ape men. Back to the trees, and don't touch my banana. Actual communism isn't high tech .. there is only primitive communism. And the Apaches will kill you if you trespass.
And meanwhile, in Denmark and Finland, socialism is hopping along just dandily.
Quote from: pr126 on July 31, 2017, 07:56:01 AM
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.
You conveniently forget just how many corpses "capitalism" has produced. Just because the owners of our nations don't want us to know how many people have died to protect their wealth doesn't mean they're any less dead.
The irony of a capitalist talking about how evil socialism is never ceases to amaze me. The amount of ignorance and historical "see-no-evil" eye covering you have to do is staggering.
Latin America has been ravaged by capitalism; first by the colonial era, then by corporations. We have overthrown democratically elected leader after democratically elected leader to protect American business interests, leading to numerous civil wars and grinding poverty. Mexico spent centuries of having it's government in turmoil to protect the Spanish hacendado interest. We embargoed Cuba and destroyed their economy because they were socialist and we weren't. We put millions of people into sweat shops, including child labour, in places like El Salvador, Honduras, and across the sea Bangladesh. We put Americans out of work so we can make pants for dirt cheap elsewhere and pocket the savings, because capitalism values that over the well-being of human beings.
We overthrew Iran's democratic, secular government to protect English oil interests. There is this country, you may have heard of it, called India... it was once part of your little Union in case you have forgotten... that saw millions upon millions of people negatively impacted by capitalism run amok. We took millions of people as slaves all in the name of capitalism. We put our young tens of thousands of dollars into debt for their education because capitalism. We put our sick and elderly in debt in the name of turning a dollar for capitalism.
I'm sorry, but this list could literally go on for several more hours of why capitalism is just as evil, if not more evil, than socialism. The short of it, tl;dr version... you're still full of shit.
Quote from: Atheon on July 31, 2017, 01:57:26 PM
And meanwhile, in Denmark and Finland, socialism is hopping along just dandily.
Move there, before a billion Muslims do ;-) Maybe you can sing "Don't cry for me, Argentina". Americans aren't any good at geography anyway ;-(
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 31, 2017, 02:44:41 PM
You conveniently forget just how many corpses "capitalism" has produced. Just because the owners of our nations don't want us to know how many people have died to protect their wealth doesn't mean they're any less dead.
You will die either way. Dead is dead, and all die. And yes, if you aren't a cute towel boy or a cuter French maid, your days are numbered. If you like how rich people hire good help, just look at the Trump administration ;-)
I've always found it odd that people are happy to accept a socialised military, yet think it's a bad system for everything else.
Quote from: Jason78 on August 01, 2017, 01:02:33 PM
I've always found it odd that people are happy to accept a socialised military, yet think it's a bad system for everything else.
If you are young and fit, join up .. but what people want is socialism without discipline. They want free shit and cuter babes. They can go ask their parents for that, if they are ever let out of the basement.
The military isn't perfect, but I think it is a lot better than the Intel guys (no, not the chip maker, unless you mean the RFID chip they want to stick us all with).
Quote from: Jason78 on August 01, 2017, 01:02:33 PM
I've always found it odd that people are happy to accept a socialised military, yet think it's a bad system for everything else.
Almost all the services we like from the government are socialism/socialistic, and almost all the things we hate aren't.
Odd coincidence, I'm sure. Also odd how those things that we like help us, and those that don't tend to lean closer to capitalism... which I think goes to the root of capitalism... sell people shit they don't need, and probably don't actually really want, for as much as you can bleed them for.
OP, you're avatar is most appropriate.
Quote from: pr126 on July 31, 2017, 07:56:01 AM
Communism has produced about a hundred million corpses world wide.
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, North Korea, Khmer Rouge, etc. Etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
I have seen some of the corpses in Budapest 1956 uprising.
Yeah, in picture books.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 01, 2017, 07:44:00 PM
Yeah, in picture books.
No, I have been there at the time.
Quote from: pr126 on August 02, 2017, 12:04:40 AM
No, I have been there at the time.
I'll give pr this one; from what I know of him, he is an ex-Soviet bloc who moved to England, and hated the world ever since.
Of course, like most ex-Soviet bloc/Cubans, he conflates socialism with communism, without realising the country that was "great" was heavily socialistic. That is understandable though, and one that doesn't really get under my skin. Wrong, but not annoying.
Now that I think about it, it also explains why he is so anti-education.
Either way though, my point here and else where stands; it is a world view dominated by fear and hatred and not rational thought, and it's a shame that there was a society that created it in him and it's a shame that there is a society that exploits it for their own advantage today. Rather than attacking people like him, what we really need to attack are the institutions that further the myths that he was sold.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 02, 2017, 12:19:44 AMI'll give pr this one; from what I know of him, he is an ex-Soviet bloc who moved to England, and hated the world ever since.
Of course, like most ex-Soviet bloc/Cubans, he conflates socialism with communism, without realising the country that was "great" was heavily socialistic.
I don't get how someone who has firsthand experience with communists could ever confuse them with Western socialists (people who support social democracy).
It's like a mistaking a husky with a chihuahua. You'd think a husky owner of all people would avoid that mistake.
Someone from the boondocks in the South who primarily knows about commies from Cold War era films and Fox News - I could forgive those people for not knowing any better. But someone who ought to know better? Dafuq.
Quote from: Jason78 on August 01, 2017, 01:02:33 PMI've always found it odd that people are happy to accept a socialised military, yet think it's a bad system for everything else.
A monopoly on the use of force more or less necessitates that it be a part of the government.
Let's examine the socialist welfare economic system.
The population is in a steady state, workers pay taxes, pay for health care (no, it is not free) and the economy is more or less stable.
Most who are able to pay their way, those who cannot are looked after.
Now introduce open borders, accept millions of migrants who are unable to contribute to the system, do not speak the language, no marketable skills, relying on the state (taxpayer) to feed, house and provide education and medical treatment.
In effect they are only consuming, not producing.
How long will the welfare state in the EU last before it is collapsing?
Our NHS (health care system) in the UK was devised back in 1948 with a smaller population after WWII.
I do not think they were designing the system with open borders in mind.
The NHS is groaning under the strain, depleted of funds, it is possible that it will function less efficiently as time goes on.
Same with schools, the classes are filled with migrant children who do not speak the language, disruptive and teachers have a hard time controlling them. Education is the lowest denomination.
Social services, police, are over worked, under funded.
Socialism doesn't always work as intended. Certainly not with open borders.
What happens when the state runs out of your money?
Venezuela.
"How long will the welfare state in the EU last before it is collapsing?" What about fabian socialism, fellow travelers of the Warsaw Pact, Red Brigade terror ... without the US carrying the weight of Nato, without the Marshall Plan ... none of that socialism could have happened. We only put up with it, because we didn't want to draw the line at the English Channel, but did draw the line at Checkpoint Charlie. Without US trade and military protection, Europe would have never recovered from WW II, let alone experiment with Soft Communism.
"What happens when the state runs out of your money? Venezuela." More appropriately, what happens when your state can't print your own money? Greece. Killing the Greeks was the opening shot of WW III.
The world pays protection money by using US dollars, giving 4% of the world GDP to the US, which we turn around and dump into the US military, which protects you. At one time, Nato member Denmark suggested ... drop the Danish military, just set up a tape recorder at the border that can play "We Surrender" to the invading E German T72 tanks. Yea, socialism and pacifism ... great if the US is paying for it in resources and blood.
Look at this:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/775843/eu-army-ministers-approve-brussels-defence-command-centre
I think that the EU army will be used to suppress internal unrest rather than any external threat.
But.
Why is there still NATO?
I seriously doubt that socialism is the cause of Venezuela or Greece, anymore that capitalism is the cause of the United States. For those who hate one or the other, the one they don't like is the version of the 'ism' unrestrained, which is seldom the 'ism' that is actually in place.
The job of government is to make things work efficiently. For those who want their capitalism, socialism, libertarianism, or theism unrestrained, we can dispense with the executive and legislative branches of government letting the courts, using respective works of Karl Marx, Adam Smith, John Birch, or Pat Robertson as guides, punish inappropriate behavior.
But somewhere in between opposing extremes there exists a reality where an effective government can work for the preservation of the country and the common good. Socialism doesn't say all immigrants must be fed, clothed, or housed regardless of their desire to contribute to the country. Capitalism doesn't say corrupt or incompetent bankers must have their ill gotten wealth protected by tax payers no matter how corrupted they are. Politicians run the country, not the 'isms.'
I would look to the people who actually manage the affairs of state, rather than ideological 'isms' to determine the causes of failed states. Don't blame Karl Marx. He's dead. We live in the present. The perfect form of government has not yet been developed, described, or implemented. And my suspicion, just a hunch, is that the perfect government is not one of the extremes that people hate or endorse as the only pure path to harmony.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 02, 2017, 07:28:30 AM
Yeah, right.
I was born in Budapest 1944. Left Hungary after the 1956 revolution.
But I don’t have to justify myself for you.
Who the hell are you anyway?
Quote from: pr126 on August 02, 2017, 07:44:36 AM
I was born in Budapest 1944. Left Hungary after the 1956 revolution.
But I don’t have to justify myself for you.
Who the hell are you anyway?
Your anecdotes hardly support your raving.
The economic crisis in Venezuela has far more to do with the country putting all its economic eggs in one basket (petroleum) than in socialism.
Quote from: Atheon on August 02, 2017, 08:45:54 AM
The economic crisis in Venezuela has far more to do with the country putting all its economic eggs in one basket (petroleum) than in socialism.
And how can we squeeze all the kinds of socialism into one cup? Sweeping castigations are lazy.
Quote from: Atheon on August 02, 2017, 08:45:54 AM
The economic crisis in Venezuela has far more to do with the country putting all its economic eggs in one basket (petroleum) than in socialism.
I don't worry about other countries a lot, but I do worry about them somewhat. Some of the richest countries in the world are completely petroleum based, and good for them for now, but those economies have a shelf life. Petroleum reserves are big advantage, but as the stock market gurus keep telling us, diversification is also important. Strong economies would then require more than one single resource to sustain them.
Venezuela's current problems started way before this new guy took over, and lower oil prices compounded it's problems significantly. But lower oil prices are good for the rest of us. Apparently, anticipating continually higher oil prices is about as sound as anticipating continually higher values in Winnebago stock. Too many eggs in one basket is more than just a clever saying. It describes the issue of risk quite well, and it points to part of a solution.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 02, 2017, 08:16:26 AM
Your anecdotes hardly support your raving.
As a historian, you should know better ... at least as far as 1945 - 1991 is concerned in E Europe.
As a Brit today, he is UKIP ... they existed before 1945 also, and they weren't with Chamberlain,
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on August 02, 2017, 08:56:56 AM
And how can we squeeze all the kinds of socialism into one cup? Sweeping castigations are lazy.
You know .. complex questions, with simple answers ... that are wrong ;-)
Quote from: SGOS on August 02, 2017, 09:29:31 AM
I don't worry about other countries a lot, but I do worry about them somewhat. Some of the richest countries in the world are completely petroleum based, and good for them for now, but those economies have a shelf life. Petroleum reserves are big advantage, but as the stock market gurus keep telling us, diversification is also important. Strong economies would then require more than on single resource to sustain them.
Venezuela's current problems started way before this new guy took over, and lower oil prices compounded it's problems significantly. But lower oil prices are good for the rest of us. Apparently, anticipating continually higher oil prices is about as sound as anticipating continually higher values in Winnebago stock. Too many eggs in one basket is more than just a clever saying. It describes the issue of risk quite well, and it points to part of a solution.
A coworker of mine, way back in 1980 .. he told the Saudis to diversify. He founded the Chemistry Dept at the University of Jidda (he himself was from Auburn). They didn't pay attention ... they are all princes whose shit doesn't stink.
Being wealthy, it's tempting to not work, or think, or anything else, I suppose. Just sit back an rake in the money. Working is not usually an individual's first choice, usually. It's often an inconvenience. That's why they pay you to work. Even playing the stock market successfully requires effort and output. Perhaps owning an oil rich country takes a lot of work. It probably does, and if you get better returns on pumping oil out of the ground than you do on building factories that make widgets, you are probably going to take your profits and install more oil pumps, so I understand the dynamic. Humans invest for the short haul. Perhaps by a two week outlook.
Except for Seward, the guy that bought Alaska. Of course, that could have turned out to be a bad investment, but with global warming, the tundra might be the next grain belt. And then everyone in Alaska will stop working until the tundra is gone, and then everyone will ask, "Why weren't those people planning ahead?
Socialism would work if done perfectly. Capitalism would work if done perfectly. Communism would work if done perfectly.
Nothing is done perfectly.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 03, 2017, 03:27:56 AM
Socialism would work if done perfectly. Capitalism would work if done perfectly. Communism would work if done perfectly.
Nothing is done perfectly.
Everything has humans in it. Therefore it will struggle at best.
Darn, I've been trying to find a quote and I can't recall the author. Something about Capitalism is the idea you can win, Communism is the idea you can't lose, and something about Socialism. I know someone out there has it posted above your computer or at least knows it. LOL!
Quote from: Cavebear on August 03, 2017, 10:56:37 AM
Darn, I've been trying to find a quote and I can't recall the author. Something about Capitalism is the idea you can win, Communism is the idea you can't lose, and something about Socialism. I know someone out there has it posted above your computer or at least knows it. LOL!
If someone doesn't finish this, I might go crazy.
The reality is this ... you can't win, you can't break even, you can't get out of the game (alive). Everything else is worthless ideology.
Quote from: SGOS on August 03, 2017, 11:00:08 AM
If someone doesn't finish this, I might go crazy.
I'm thinking Heinlein, but can't find the quote.
Oh dear. I have just realized This is FOX News. :grr:
Therefore by default, it must be a lie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gjnk9KqwvQ
Quote from: pr126 on August 07, 2017, 12:19:30 AM
Oh dear. I have just realized This is FOX News. :grr:
Therefore by default, it must be a lie.
Yep. Faux news is a lie. Every now and again you get one right.
So Texas, arguably the most capitalist state in the Union, ranks number 11 for worst health care in the U.S. (which the U.S., which is arguably the most capitalist country in the developed world, ranks low in world rankings), which means it is some of the worst health care money can buy.
Amongst other things, it's weird how socialism and quality health care seem to be almost exclusively linked to one another.
QuoteTherefore by default, it must be a lie.
Not by default, no. I would say not even on norm, though they are known to lie quite often. Rather it's a matter of omitting information and taking only the bits that absolutely agree with the narrative they want to sell and implying that the 5% of the story they reported proves the 95% rest of it is just as terrible without actually presenting any evidence that is the case.
FOX at least has a small amount of accountability when they lie. It's when you start posting sources like Brietbart, GatesOfVienna, and other such sites that you have to be really on guard with every story about straight up lying. FOX isn't quite on that level.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 08, 2017, 06:24:36 PM
Not by default, no. I would say not even on norm, though they are known to lie quite often. Rather it's a matter of omitting information and taking only the bits that absolutely agree with the narrative they want to sell and implying that the 5% of the story they reported proves the 95% rest of it is just as terrible without actually presenting any evidence that is the case.
FOX at least has a small amount of accountability when they lie. It's when you start posting sources like Brietbart, GatesOfVienna, and other such sites that you have to be really on guard with every story about straight up lying. FOX isn't quite on that level.
I hate the Fox game. They find a rumor. They send it to a blogger. The Blogger reports the rumor. Then Fox quotes the blogger as a "source".
Feds freeze millions in assets linked to stolen Venezuelan oil funds laundered in South Florida/ (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article217125090.html)
QuoteFederal prosecutors have frozen hundreds of millions of dollars in South Florida luxury real estate and other assets linked to a network of Venezuelan business people and former government officials charged with laundering more than $1 billion that U.S. authorities say was stolen from the country’s vast oil income.
Among the targeted assets are at least 17 South Florida homes, condos and horse ranches ranging in total value from $22 million to $35 million, based on property assessments in public records and real estate market estimates.
They include a condo in the Porsche Design Tower in Sunny Isles Beach, a residence in the affluent Bay Point area of Miami, four homes in the exclusive Cocoplum neighborhood of Coral Gables, and two ranches in the wealthy equestrian community of Wellington in Palm Beach County.
Also facing federal forfeiture: More than $45 million that has already been seized by U.S. authorities in the past year, along with additional deposits at City National Bank of New Jersey and other financial institutions in the Bahamas, England and Switzerland.
Quote from: Atheon on July 31, 2017, 01:57:26 PM
And meanwhile, in Denmark and Finland, socialism is hopping along just dandily.
The scandinavians are tired of ignorant people referring to their robust safety net as "socialism", they insist it is not.
They have a point, they haven't collectivized the means of production.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on August 26, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
The scandinavians are tired of ignorant people referring to their robust safety net as "socialism", they insist it is not.
They have a point, they haven't collectivized the means of production.
A sad castration of a once virile society?
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on August 26, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
The scandinavians are tired of ignorant people referring to their robust safety net as "socialism", they insist it is not.
They have a point, they haven't collectivized the means of production.
Bingo.
We have a mixed economy. Both private and public; whereas lots of public sectors are contracted to private companies who compete for government contracts. It's not even close to socialism.
Democratic socialism is a bit obnoxious to have to spell out or say every time.
Everyone knows what you mean when you say"socialism", with what should be obviously no one thinking you are advocating for traditional socialism.
There are a lot of things we say that aren't literally accurate. If we were to spell out exactly what we mean, we couldn't say anything with out taking a week to say it.
I realise there are people who actually do get anal about that in all instances, but most of the time it's purely a political "argument" that is centered solely on being obnoxious and intentionally dense.
Quote from: Shiranu on August 26, 2018, 06:27:52 PM
Democratic socialism is a bit obnoxious to have to spell out or say every time.
Everyone knows what you mean when you say"socialism", with what should be obviously no one thinking you are advocating for traditional socialism.
There are a lot of things we say that aren't literally accurate. If we were to spell out exactly what we mean, we couldn't say anything with out taking a week to say it.
I realise there are people who actually do get anal about that in all instances, but most of the time it's purely a political "argument" that is centered solely on being obnoxious and intentionally dense.
How about "anarcho-syndicalism" ... aka trade unions being boss, and anti-government. More accurately we have "anarcho-cabalism" ... in that our political parties are cabals and are generating serious anarchy.
When "socialism" means distributed outcomes in support of the populace, I think that is good. When it means control of productivity, that is not so good. Collective control of productivity doesn't seen to work anywhere.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 01:21:42 AM
When "socialism" means distributed outcomes in support of the populace, I think that is good. When it means control of productivity, that is not so good. Collective control of productivity doesn't seen to work anywhere.
Camel is a horse designed by a committee.
EARTH MOVING TOO CLOSE TO THE SUN CAUSES VENEZUELA'S POWER OUTAGES, MADURO ALLY SAYS (https://www.newsweek.com/sun-causes-venezuelas-power-outages-maduro-ally-963209)
QuoteA political ally of Venezuela’s strongman Nicolás Maduro has blamed the Earth’s position in relation to the sun for the country’s ongoing blackouts.
“It is because we are very close to the Sun … while the rest of the world is cold, it is hot here, that just makes the situation more serious,†Lisandro Cabello, government secretary in the state of Zulia, said in a press conference. He blamed the summer solstice for the country’s electricity problems, The Times reported on Wednesday.
Venezuela, a country that is grappling with a major economic crisis, has been suffering power cuts for several months. According to workers at the country’s nationalized electricity company, Corpoelec, the problem is actually due to years of poor maintenance accompanied by rampant theft.
Watch a string of Venezuela's power stations explode through the night (https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/09/watch_a_string_of_venezuelas_power_stations_explode_through_the_night.html)
Send Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Cortez to fix it.
Quote from: pr126 on September 03, 2018, 09:46:33 AM
QuoteA political ally of Venezuela’s strongman Nicolás Maduro has blamed the Earth’s position in relation to the sun for the country’s ongoing blackouts.
“It is because we are very close to the Sun … while the rest of the world is cold, it is hot here, that just makes the situation more serious,†Lisandro Cabello, government secretary in the state of Zulia, said in a press conference. He blamed the summer solstice for the country’s electricity problems,
Send Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Cortez to fix it.
This sounds more like some dumb theory invented by our conservative religious right in the US. I doubt if Bernie or anyone else can fix it. I know for sure Trump can't.
Quote from: SGOS on September 03, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
Send Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Cortez to fix it.
This sounds more like some dumb theory invented by our conservative religious right in the US. I doubt if Bernie or anyone else can fix it. I know for sure Trump can't.
Political expertise = ability to bull shit rubes.
Sorry, are you saying that the US is interfering in another country? Would never happen, only Russians do that, and only for Republican candidates.
Oleg Deripaska ... Russian oligarch, Putin friend ... was involved in American collusion, 2009-2016 ... working for President Obama.
Q: What did socialists use before candles?
A: Electricity.
Quote from: pr126 on September 03, 2018, 12:50:43 PM
Q: What did socialists use before candles?
A: Electricity.
Why anyone still respects thinkers like Voltaire, Rousseau, Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche etc is beyond me. Their lives were shit and their ideas poison.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 27, 2018, 01:21:42 AM
When "socialism" means distributed outcomes in support of the populace, I think that is good. When it means control of productivity, that is not so good. Collective control of productivity doesn't seen to work anywhere.
The problem is, socialism does not mean redistribution of wealth. It means collectivitizing the mans of production.
Ooo, oo I can play this game too!
One word, and I will completely and utterly debunk a political system... Somalia!
HAH!
TAKE THAT CAPITALISTS!
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on September 04, 2018, 08:50:52 PM
The problem is, socialism does not mean redistribution of wealth. It means collectivitizing the (means) of production.
Correct. Socialism isn't social safety nets. That is compassion. But in Newspeak, we mix words up, for Big Brother.
I am sure Shiranu prefers collectivist petroleum in Venezuela or collectivist agriculture in Russia. Death to the Kulaks! Death to the Oil companies!
Therefore yes, support expropriation without compensation ... gotta revenge things from 400 years ago, in S Africa. Before the Dutch and British came, it was like Wakanda ;-))
Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2018, 09:46:54 PM
Ooo, oo I can play this game too!
One word, and I will completely and utterly debunk a political system... Somalia!
HAH!
TAKE THAT CAPITALISTS!
Actually Somalia is capitalistic, in a tribal way. Every man for himself and devil take the hind-most. If you don't play the game by the rules, you won't win.
Quote from: Baruch on September 05, 2018, 04:19:42 AM
Correct. Socialism isn't social safety nets. That is compassion. But in Newspeak, we mix words up, for Big Brother.
Yes. Conservatives call compassion socialism. Libertarians call socialism collectivism. Sara Palin refers to anything she doesn't like as socialism. Brauch calls democratic socialism communism. And to Hell with the dictionary. It's all about what words are useful for trolling the right crowd.
Quote from: SGOS on September 05, 2018, 03:15:41 PM
Yes. Conservatives call compassion socialism. Libertarians call socialism collectivism. Sara Palin refers to anything she doesn't like as socialism. Brauch calls democratic socialism communism. And to Hell with the dictionary. It's all about what words are useful for trolling the right crowd.
No, you (not you personally) want the government to steal money and property to benefit you, because your are too cowardly and lazy to become a bank robber. If you want to be a bank robber, the proper way is to be a coddled bank president who speculates and embezzles ... who unlike the 1980s, isn't fined or jailed for your White collar crimes, instead your company is fined, and you take the fines off of your corporate taxes.
This is what all people want, they want to be criminals, but without police, without opposing criminals, and without any shame or guilt. To be Sopranos, but without the pasta sauce. This is what materialism gets you. This is what "me first" morals gets you. You want to die with as much stuff as possible, because your soul is empty of any actual value. Motto: To be a consumer, not a producer.
FYI - Nobody here may fit this profile. But it does fit the people who actually run societies. Every society.
Quote from: SGOS on September 03, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
Send Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Cortez to fix it.
This sounds more like some dumb theory invented by our conservative religious right in the US. I doubt if Bernie or anyone else can fix it. I know for sure Trump can't.
Stupid people are stupid no matter where they live. But it occurs to me that Venezuela might be a good place for us to send OUR stupid people to. They would feel right (left?) at home.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 08, 2018, 06:46:25 AM
Stupid people are stupid no matter where they live. But it occurs to me that Venezuela might be a good place for us to send OUR stupid people to. They would feel right (left?) at home.
Usually Somalia has been proposed for Republicans. Venezuela is a good choice for Democrats.
Quote from: Baruch on September 08, 2018, 08:51:51 AM
Usually Somalia has been proposed for Republicans. Venezuela is a good choice for Democrats.
Ah, let them all play checkers in Iceland... And skip across the green dear hills of Ireland wandering among the twitchy sheep.
BTW, did you know that Scotch Whiskey was invented in Ireland. But the brewers knew no one would want to drink "Irtch"...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:13:47 PM
Ah, let them all play checkers in Iceland... And skip across the green dear hills of Ireland wandering among the twitchy sheep.
BTW, did you know that Scotch Whiskey was invented in Ireland. But the brewers knew no one would want to drink "Irtch"...
Well in the native tongues I hear it is called "poteen".
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:16:05 PM
Well in the native tongues I hear it is called "poteen".
I'm a Southern Comfort and Peach liquer with gingerale on ice type myself. Unless I get down and nasty mixing gin and lemon juice...
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:21:51 PM
I'm a Southern Comfort and Peach liquer with gingerale on ice type myself. Unless I get down and nasty mixing gin and lemon juice...
Well then, you have a bit of red neck in you after all ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:23:04 PM
Well then, you have a bit of red neck in you after all ;-))
Smooth is smooth. Got bored with imported beers. I'll be playing horseshoes next.
Quote from: Cavebear on September 23, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
Smooth is smooth. Got bored with imported beers. I'll be playing horseshoes next.
When you play horseshoes, remember to take them off the horse first ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on September 23, 2018, 02:39:26 PM
When you play horseshoes, remember to take them off the horse first ;-)
What sport is THAT? If you want to build muscles you need some weight.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2018, 09:46:54 PM
Ooo, oo I can play this game too!
One word, and I will completely and utterly debunk a political system... Somalia!
HAH!
TAKE THAT CAPITALISTS!
An interesting choice. Let's examine it.
There was a time a few decades ago when Somalia had a government. It wasn't a very good government. The government forgot the first rule of parasites - don't kill the host. The dictator was named President of Somalia Major General Mohamed Siad Barre, and he was an avowed Marxist. His one-party rule was the Somali Revolutionary Socialist Party.
During the 32 years of Barre's rule, everything that could be looted was looted. Everything that couldn't be looted was broken. Then, when the country was brought as low as it could go and still have people living there, the government collapsed.
Then, having been brought so low AND having no government, idiots started saying "this is what a country with no government looks like."
****
I have decided that Venezuela actually is a Socialist success story, and it proves the Modern Monetary Theory as well. Everyone is equal, everyone is a multi-millionare.
QuoteThen, having been brought so low AND having no government, idiots started saying "this is what a country with no government looks like."
Thank you for proving my point.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 30, 2018, 11:11:01 PM
Thank you for proving my point.
Your point, that you didn't have one?
I just gave you this history of the country you think proves you are right, and that history doesn't prove you are right. You probably think the situation in Somalia is
because they have no government and not the other way around.
QuoteYour point, that you didn't have one?
No, my point that acting like a single failed state somehow proves an entire economic system is broken while disregarding any and every other factor that went into the state failing is idiotic, yet is exactly what pr was doing the entire thread.
I didn't think I could have made the snark any more clearer without putting in bold letters, "
THIS IS SNARK". Though I have to admit, I didn't expect to kill two birds with one stone when I posted it...
Quote from: Shiranu on September 30, 2018, 11:27:25 PM
No, my point that acting like a single failed state somehow proves an entire economic system is broken while disregarding any and every other factor that went into the state failing is idiotic, yet is exactly what pr was doing the entire thread.
I didn't think I could have made the snark any more clearer without putting in bold letters, "THIS IS SNARK". Though I have to admit, I didn't expect to kill two birds with one stone when I posted it...
Communism has failed because nobody did it right? Same as fascism failed because nobody did it right.
Quote from: Shiranu on September 30, 2018, 11:27:25 PM
No, my point that acting like a single failed state somehow proves an entire economic system is broken while disregarding any and every other factor that went into the state failing is idiotic, yet is exactly what pr was doing the entire thread.
I didn't think I could have made the snark any more clearer without putting in bold letters, "THIS IS SNARK". Though I have to admit, I didn't expect to kill two birds with one stone when I posted it...
Well, if the complaint is that it has never been done right, then that means it can't be done right.
Or that the definition is "this unworkable system works", which is inherently self-contradictory.
Besides, it worked in Venezuela. Everyone is equal and everyone is a millionaire.
QuoteWell, if the complaint is that it has never been done right, then that means it can't be done right.
Except it has been done right, so that complaint is inherently wrong.
Repeating pr's argument for him, without any sort of explanation, doesn't magically make it true.
QuoteBesides, it worked in Venezuela. Everyone is equal and everyone is a millionaire.
Everyone being a millionaire is not the goal of socialism.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 12, 2018, 10:00:54 PM
Except it has been done right, so that complaint is inherently wrong.
You can show me a country where the means of production were nationalized and it worked?
Don't show me some country with a generous safety net. You said that it has worked, so you can show me a country where it was implemented, and then worked.
I agree that socialism in Venezuela has been done right.
This is how socialism works everywhere.
The proof is in the results, we can all see it. Monumental fail.
Alexandria Cortez, take heed. (She won't.)
QuoteYou can show me a country where the means of production were nationalized and it worked?
Yes, in fact it's the one we both live in.
Our public education, like essentially every developed country, is a socialized industry. Our police force is almost fully socialized, though more and more private security forms are trying to regain the power they had as well as corporations and donors trying to have more influence on our police forces. In countries or cities with effective public transportation, their public transportation.
The list goes on and on... our system is a hybrid of socialism and capitalism, and it works better than nearly any other system mankind has ever implemented.
Too much socialism is bad. There, I said it. Likewise, too much capitalism is bad. But we have reached such a point in our society where even suggesting that we should lean closer to the "socialist" side of the hybrid because we have drifted too far into extreme capitalism now labels you as a "socialist", when in truth it's mostly it's a centralist ideology that lead to the American Golden Age as well as societies in Europe being amongst the most free, the most economically stable and the most economically equal societies.
What pr just said is a glaring example of this, that Cortez-Ocasio should "take heed", as if she is proposing Venezuelan corruption, autocracy and communism, the things that brought the country down.
People have drifted so far right that what was what made America great is now considered just as radical and and the same branch of "socialist" as Venezuela's broken government. Somehow proposing that banks should have regulations, corporations shouldn't have carte blanc to do as they please, and that the government should provide adequate protections to basic human rights protected within our Constitution (Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness) is equal to saying we should have an autocratic/plutocratic corrupt government.
Ironically, people like pr are so quick to scream about the terrors of the left that they don't hear the words coming out of their mouth, just noise. Pr has argued in favour of a religious-backed dictator who has argued in favour of torture and abolishing democracy because he shares similar ideological hatred of "the left", of "the globalist".
Surely the insanity of telling me to fear socialists destroying Western culture, while making excuses for a dictator backed by theocratic values who openly questions democracy in a Western nation, is not lost on you?
Au contraire. I think everyone who'll take a time machine and live in E Berlin under socialism ... will learn a lesson or two. The best of Hitler and Stalin.
Fact is, labels don't matter. There are people who use politics to do evil, and people who use some other tool to do evil. Is the US, killing a million Iraqis, better?
Shiranu objects, out of his own experience, against certain kinds of politics. pr126 does the same thing, but their personal experience is very different, so their objections are different. Their solutions to their problems differ also. Both have the same ultimate egomania ... the answer is to become more like Shiranu or more like pr126.
Because of my age and particular experience, I am more triggered the way pr126 is, because of the Soviet Union pointing nukes at me for much of my life. It is rude to point! Also my experience of the 60s wasn't positive in regards to progressives (hippies). So less triggered the way Shiranu is. Of course both are critics, and critics are always right, about something or other.
You list public education and law enforcement as good examples. Oh boy.
If the unspoken contract of public education is "we give you tax money, you produce an educated populace" then the contract is being broken on the side of the education system, not the side of the tax paying public.
And police? Ah, that is such a big topic of inappropriate behavior, abuse, and chronic mismanagement that it really does deserve its own thread. Only someone who holds the government in a divine status could write that post. Wow. When you became an atheist, did you replace god with government?
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on October 13, 2018, 01:56:56 PM
You list public education and law enforcement as good examples. Oh boy.
If the unspoken contract of public education is "we give you tax money, you produce an educated populace" then the contract is being broken on the side of the education system, not the side of the tax paying public.
And police? Ah, that is such a big topic of inappropriate behavior, abuse, and chronic mismanagement that it really does deserve its own thread. Only someone who holds the government in a divine status could write that post. Wow. When you became an atheist, did you replace god with government?
It would be nice if the police and the educators all did their work as theorized in Civics 101. Have they aver done that? Or are liberals just being nostalgic for a time that never happened. I mean liberal in this case as someone who believes in the American system of government (in theory), where the government is legitimately taking care of the common good, rather than taking care of special people (no, that is never the poor).
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on October 13, 2018, 01:56:56 PM
If the unspoken contract of public education is "we give you tax money, you produce an educated populace" then the contract is being broken on the side of the education system, not the side of the tax paying public".
The public school system was broken years ago when Conservatives decide that teaching kids at home to avoid all science was a Good Thing. The tax payers are not the problem. The anti-science and basic anti-education people are.
QuoteIf the unspoken contract of public education is "we give you tax money, you produce an educated populace" then the contract is being broken on the side of the education system, not the side of the tax paying public.
"Because it doesn't work perfectly in America, it doesn't work anywhere else!"
QuoteAnd police? Ah, that is such a big topic of inappropriate behavior, abuse, and chronic mismanagement that it really does deserve its own thread.
"Because it doesn't work perfectly in America, it doesn't work anywhere else!"
Firstly, our education and police system have both worked before, and the quality of it is not uniform, so to act like the flaws in these systems totally invalidate any success they have had is ridiculous. It's the libertarian equivalent of, "All cops are racist!". There are places where they works nearly perfectly, just as there are places where they works poorly. That doesn't mean the system is inherently broken, no more than it working in places means it inherently works.
It works because the best countries in the world all practice socialized police and socialized education systems. For someone so versed in economics, you should realise that you don't throw something away because it failed once. That is just poor business. If my car has a flat-tire, I don't throw the car to the trash-heap and insist that all cars are evil and there are better systems of transportation than cars. I fix the tire and move on with my life.
If everyone else is buying a product, and it is doing amazing for them while you struggle to operate it, that doesn't mean the product sucks... it means you need to learn how to use it better.
Pink colored glasses nostalgia for the good old days of ... 2010. The past was never as good as anyone thinks it was. Except of course when the Democrats controlled the Federal government (all three branches) and most state governments. But only a Democrat would believe that. Republicans would consider that past a dystopia of one sided ideology.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 14, 2018, 02:00:04 AM
"Because it doesn't work perfectly in America, it doesn't work anywhere else!"
"Because it doesn't work perfectly in America, it doesn't work anywhere else!"
Firstly, our education and police system have both worked before, and the quality of it is not uniform, so to act like the flaws in these systems totally invalidate any success they have had is ridiculous. It's the libertarian equivalent of, "All cops are racist!". There are places where they works nearly perfectly, just as there are places where they works poorly. That doesn't mean the system is inherently broken, no more than it working in places means it inherently works.
It works because the best countries in the world all practice socialized police and socialized education systems. For someone so versed in economics, you should realise that you don't throw something away because it failed once. That is just poor business. If my car has a flat-tire, I don't throw the car to the trash-heap and insist that all cars are evil and there are better systems of transportation than cars. I fix the tire and move on with my life.
If everyone else is buying a product, and it is doing amazing for them while you struggle to operate it, that doesn't mean the product sucks... it means you need to learn how to use it better.
Please stop deleting poster's names in the quotes. It matters. I have mentioned previously that this is a bad habit of yours. I now suspect it is deliberate. It is "discussionally" offensive.
QuoteI now suspect it is deliberate.
It's only deliberate in that I don't feel like having to manually type in, [...="so-and-so"] every time I want to quote someone, and assume that the person who said it (and whom I am responding to) knows what they said.
Quote from: Shiranu on October 14, 2018, 07:14:20 AM
It's only deliberate in that I don't feel like having to manually type in, [...="so-and-so"] every time I want to quote someone, and assume that the person who said it (and whom I am responding to) knows what they said.
Actually, you have to actively delete or ignore them. I like your opinions usually, I support a lot of what you say. But actively deleting authors is confusing and wrong. So please stop doing it. Its a request.
Quote from: Cavebear on October 14, 2018, 09:03:47 AM
Actually, you have to actively delete or ignore them. I like your opinions usually, I support a lot of what you say. But actively deleting authors is confusing and wrong. So please stop doing it. Its a request.
The Stazzi don't respond to requests ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBBuzHrZBro
Yes, same old America as 1958. Not a nice feeling.
Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2018, 09:55:35 AM
The Stazzi don't respond to requests ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBBuzHrZBro
Yes, same old America as 1958. Not a nice feeling.
I never mentioned Stazzi. But you seem quite fasinated by them. Shame...
I was taking a dig at Shiranu, you old rug you.
Quote from: Baruch on October 14, 2018, 01:40:29 PM
I was taking a dig at Shiranu, you old rug you.
So I can't defend Shiranu? But oops on me for apparently getting my post inside the quote. My bad.