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Once again the absurd notion that one can dictate what their gender is by merely saying so isn't a theory. Its now a reality caused by the identity politics of the past 8 years. Its outrageous that a person need make no physical changes and can claim they are a different sex because they say so and everyone else has to accept that ludicrous standard. They are handing out instructions to the troops that they aren't to say anything if someone not anatomically correct winds up in the shower. I have to admit, I never saw this absurdity coming down the pike. If someone suggested it would come to this 10 years ago I'd say they were a few cards short of a full deck. I would say most of society doesn't accept this absurd notion yet our military is going to be forced to.

If a male looking female gets an erection in the woman's shower 'she' can say 'she's' saluting them...

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 13, 2017, 11:59:33 PM

If a male looking female gets an erection in the woman's shower 'she' can say 'she's' saluting them...

(http://i.imgur.com/6f0erRJ.png)

Link?

I am going to try to be careful in what I say here, because I recently watched the video that follows this statement(yeah...I know...John Oliver, again...), and it helped me get a better understanding of the issues, surrounding the rights of the “trans-gendered,” and I pretty much wouldn't prevent anyone from using the bathroom, in which they feel most comfortable, and above all...SAFE...but I have to say, in all honesty, to a much greater extent than I would have expected, I agree with Drew, on this!

I have no difficulty whatsoever, with gays, lesbians, or bisexuals, or pretty much, any of their behavior. It is only the “T,” in “LGBT,” that I have a concern about.

Here's where the problem is for me...

For starters, the term “trans-gendered,” is too broadly applied. It should probably be parsed, in my opinion, into(at least) three different words. (feel free to update my terminology...but)“Transvestite,” “transsexual,” and, of course, for lack of any other word, “shemale.”

Here's how I feel about it: LIFE SUCKS! I am not, in most ways, the ideal representation, of what I would have chosen to be, genetically. BUT THAT IS LIFE! I was born this way, and that is what I have to deal with, until I finally get to join the rock, that sometimes props open my door, in ZERO.

I have a very active, and uninhibited imagination(which might surprise you...in so many ways...how much I can sympathize with you). It facilitates my fantasies, for masturbation, and I encourage such an imagination for anyone. If you are a man, who feels he should have been a girl, then you have every right to explore that notion, as a fantasy. And if there is someone who is willing to share in your fantasy, in the privacy of your home, then be very glad. But here's the thing: YOU ARE NOT A GIRL. So when you leave the privacy, of your home, and are engaging with the general public, you should be expected, just as everyone else, to set aside your sexual fantasy(or any other unfulfilled dreams, of what it would be like, to actually live as a girl), for a while, and live in the real world, as a man, which is what you really are(no matter how much you wish otherwise), and not expect the rest of us to INDULGE YOUR FANTASY, ALL DAY LONG!

Although this may sound like I am being cruel to you, I actually do sympathize, very much. It is not me who is being cruel to you, it is life that is being cruel to you. It is cruel to most of us, in fact, but in different ways.

LIFE SUCKS, to say the least, but NOBODY GETS TO PRETEND that it doesn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmoAX9f6MOc.

I know...The shit-storm approacheth...

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 14, 2017, 02:10:06 AM
I am going to try to be careful in what I say here, because I recently watched the video that follows this statement(yeah...I know...John Oliver, again...),

Are you able to present an argument without a video?  I don't watch them.

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 13, 2017, 11:59:33 PM
Once again the absurd notion that one can dictate what their gender is by merely saying so isn't a theory. Its now a reality caused by the identity politics of the past 8 years. Its outrageous that a person need make no physical changes and can claim they are a different sex because they say so and everyone else has to accept that ludicrous standard. They are handing out instructions to the troops that they aren't to say anything if someone not anatomically correct winds up in the shower. I have to admit, I never saw this absurdity coming down the pike. If someone suggested it would come to this 10 years ago I'd say they were a few cards short of a full deck. I would say most of society doesn't accept this absurd notion yet our military is going to be forced to.

If a male looking female gets an erection in the woman's shower 'she' can say 'she's' saluting them...

I for one welcome everyone in the US military, even if they have no gender at all.  Do you know we welcome Panamanians and Phillipinos?  And yes, US society is autistic ... and our mad ravings are not to be taken seriously, nor are they progressive.

QuoteOnce again the absurd notion that one can dictate what their gender is by merely saying so isn't a theory.

It's only absurd if one doesn't grasp the difference between gender and sex.

Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2017, 07:26:19 AM
It's only absurd if one doesn't grasp the difference between gender and sex.

The Normies always oppress the Kekistanis.  They simply want the world to be binary, just like it was in 1960 ;-(

Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2017, 07:26:19 AM
It's only absurd if one doesn't grasp the difference between gender and sex.

I think I fail at that.  I feel all in one, so it is difficult.  That doesn't mean I don't try, just that I try and fail.

Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2017, 07:26:19 AM
It's only absurd if one doesn't grasp the difference between gender and sex.

Or ginger sex.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 14, 2017, 07:44:56 AM
Or ginger sex.

Green eyed red-heads?  Blarney I tells ya!

Quote from: Baruch on July 14, 2017, 01:13:42 PM
Green eyed red-heads?  Blarney I tells ya!

Tell it to the former Ms. Cassidy.

I don't even have the right words for this.

My failure to completely understand those in former gender uncertainty does not mean I don't want to understand. 

I hate to rely on cartoons, but a South Park episode helped some.  When trying to relate to Token, a black kid they generally like, Stan (I think) or Kyle tried to relate.  And failed.  And failed.  And failed.  And he finally realized, that not being Black, he CAN'T "get it" and never will.  It is outside his experience.  He could finally say "I DON'T GET IT" and never will.

And when he tells Token THAT, they rejoice at at least THAT understanding.   They both understand that there are some experiences they cannot fully comprehend.

There are some things I will never understand fully.  Racial differences, gender differences, cross-gender differences.  I cannot understand some differences.

But I can try.  I can teach myself to think more broadly than I do.

But not to theists...  That's willful idiocy, LOL!

Quote from: Cavebear on July 14, 2017, 02:13:45 PM...I cannot understand some differences.

But I can try.  I can teach myself to think more broadly than I do.

That is pretty much, how I will respond to a trans-gendered individual, despite what I personally believe about what they are doing. I realize that everything I said about this issue, could be somewhat misunderstood, because I articulated my opinion of the topic, which is based as much on how I feel, as any kind of seemingly cruel reasoning.

I first realized that my understanding of it was incomplete, when I saw something on TV, some years back, about a very young boy, who was trying to remove his penis with a pair of nail clippers, because he was so completely certain that he should be a girl, not a boy.

But I do tend to question, whether that little boy's experience is actually representative, of the average trans-gender experience.

Which is why, although I am still working on what I think about the trans-gendered, and feel that I should be able to say what I think, in a respectful manner, if possible, I would never impose my opinion on their lives, by denying them equal access/rights, or as I said before, bathroom options, that might very well keep them safe.

My main exception, to acceptance though(fully realizing, that the odds of this happening are pretty close to zero), is this: DON'T EVER SEDUCE ME, SUCK MY DICK, AND AFTERWARDS REVEAL YOU ARE, OR EVER WERE, A MAN! You can thank The Crying Game for that concern.

I spent 20 years in the USN and never had an official reason for inquiring as to a person's current genitalia circumstances.

Off duty was another matter. ;-)

It's really not a complex concept.

Sex - Do you have a penis or a vagina (or something else).

Gender - A mixture of one's role in society, expected way to carry and present oneself, how one perceives themselves and where they feel they belong in society as well as what they enjoy, and other non-physical related things that we force on a person for physical reasons without requiring any actual physical criteria. For example, butch and dyke lesbians vs just... girls who are lesbians... are almost like two completely different genders even though both are just lesbians and both are just women. Or flamboyant gays with all the stereotypical signs who are...different... from just regular gay guys who, if you met on the street, you wouldn't necessarily know they were gay.

Shorter, gender is how we with more detail examine someone and what there expected place in society is.

(I don't believe the different types of lesbians or gays are actually different genders, but they make the easiest example of how someone can be a male or female and yet be drastically different in how we perceive them and how they perceive themselves, and that this shows that it's not just gender that has alot of ambiguity and fluidity.)

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 14, 2017, 05:42:12 PM
I spent 20 years in the USN and never had an official reason for inquiring as to a person's current genitalia circumstances.

Off duty was another matter. ;-)

Yeah, the surprise date...

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 14, 2017, 05:17:21 AM
I know...The shit-storm approacheth...

Just for agreeing with me alone you should be drawn and quartered...

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 14, 2017, 07:56:25 PM
Just for agreeing with me alone you should be drawn and quartered...

Violating my, "Oath-of no-interaction-with-Drew-anymore," once again...but, I am a little surprised, by the fact that hasn't actually been the case. Of course our own trans-gendered members have yet to contribute, so...I'm not sure I should feel safe, just yet...

Quote from: Shiranu on July 14, 2017, 06:36:50 PM
It's really not a complex concept.

Sex - Do you have a penis or a vagina (or something else).

Gender - A mixture of one's role in society, expected way to carry and present oneself, how one perceives themselves and where they feel they belong in society as well as what they enjoy, and other non-physical related things that we force on a person for physical reasons without requiring any actual physical criteria. For example, butch and dyke lesbians vs just... girls who are lesbians... are almost like two completely different genders even though both are just lesbians and both are just women. Or flamboyant gays with all the stereotypical signs who are...different... from just regular gay guys who, if you met on the street, you wouldn't necessarily know they were gay.

I don't doubt in the majority of cases they truly feel and act like the gender they believe they are rather than the one assigned via genitalia. Bathrooms, locker rooms and other places have been designated by the genitalia regardless how the person felt about it. I resent the rest of society (particularly the military) being forced to facilitate what amounts to an arbitrary designation. Its also enforcing a social policy on the military because they can. Its not the place for social experimentation. I'm a veteran also. It was difficult but necessary for the service to accommodate woman in combat, it was difficult for the military to accept gays for a host of reasons. This is about as over the top as it gets. I can't imagine this can possibly have a positive effect.

One other comment, I've never watched it but there is a reality show called Jazz that documents the troubles and woes a trans-gendered girl faces.  First off the parents should be arrested for either child abuse or child endangerment for allowing this troubled teen to be on nationwide TV and share her sexuality with the world. I'm sure its me, after all I'm a theist God only knows what I believe, I can't believe any loving parent would do this to a child. I'm sure I'm wrong and this is just the new brave world we live in and I'm a dinosaur.

They are now taping the result when Jazz goes dancing and informs boys she's trans-gendered. They appear to be shocked that some boys don't like it. That's how it goes tolerance isn't enough there must be full acceptance.

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 14, 2017, 08:30:15 PM
I don't doubt in the majority of cases they truly feel and act like the gender they believe they are rather than the one assigned via genitalia. Bathrooms, locker rooms and other places have been designated by the genitalia regardless how the person felt about it. I resent the rest of society (particularly the military) being forced to facilitate what amounts to an arbitrary designation. Its also enforcing a social policy on the military because they can. Its not the place for social experimentation. I'm a veteran also. It was difficult but necessary for the service to accommodate woman in combat, it was difficult for the military to accept gays for a host of reasons. This is about as over the top as it gets. I can't imagine this can possibly have a positive effect.

One other comment, I've never watched it but there is a reality show called Jazz that documents the troubles and woes a trans-gendered girl faces.  First off the parents should be arrested for either child abuse or child endangerment for allowing this troubled teen to be on nationwide TV and share her sexuality with the world. I'm sure its me, after all I'm a theist God only knows what I believe, I can't believe any loving parent would do this to a child. I'm sure I'm wrong and this is just the new brave world we live in and I'm a dinosaur.

They are now taping the result when Jazz goes dancing and informs boys she's trans-gendered. They appear to be shocked that some boys don't like it. That's how it goes tolerance isn't enough there must be full acceptance.

I also think they they are what they want to be,  The brain is not the body.  But it IS very difficult for the rest of the work to adapt to...

I think this story, is about the child that I referred to in my earlier post, which first made me realize, that there is much more to this subject, than I had ever been aware. Only, where I thought that I remembered nail-clippers, it was actually craft scissors...

WARNING TO DREW: IF YOU READ THIS STORY, YOU WILL CRY:

QuoteOriginally published 2 Oct 2012;

Aged six, doctors diagnosed Danann with gender identity disorder

But, while his parents put it down to a phase, when they caught him trying to cut off his penis with scissors aged four, they sought professional help.

Terrified and confused, mum Sarah and dad Bill didn’t know what to think, and experts struggled to explain his behaviour â€" then, aged six, doctors diagnosed Danann with gender identity disorder, a condition where sufferers are unhappy with their sex.

Controversially, the couple made the decision to bring him up as their daughter, despite his young age, allowing him to grow his hair and wear girls’ clothes full time, even to school.

Now, Sarah, 39, says Danann â€" who hasn’t changed her name as it’s unisex â€" is happy for the first time â€" and Sarah says she’ll even support Danann if she wants a full sex-change op at 15.

Sarah says: “People might think she’s too young, but it’s best for Danann we make the transformation now so she won’t struggle through puberty. She’s a different child now she’s living as a girl â€" I know we made the right decision. She’s happy, outgoing and doing well at school. This is who she wants to be.”

Yoga instructor Sarah, who lives in California with her older son James, 11, and her police officer husband, Bill, 45, first noticed Danann was unhappy aged two.

She recalls: “I picked him up from a friend’s who has a little girl and found him wearing a Cinderella dress, mini high heels and with pink painted nails. When I made him take the clothes off, he started crying.”

Over the next few months, Danann repeatedly demanded to wear girls’ clothes. Sarah says: “He’d scream when I tried to put him in boys’ clothes and, when I picked him up from nursery, I noticed he’d be playing in the miniature kitchen with the girls and didn’t like trucks or action figures. I assumed it was a phase.”

But, astonishingly, Danann also began drawing pictures of himself as a girl â€" worryingly, with an unhappy face.

Sarah says: “It really disturbed me seeing him so down. Bill was really freaked out.”

Sarah took Danann to see a paediatrician, who agreed his behaviour was a phase. But, by the time he turned three, Danann’s tantrums worsened.

Sarah explains: “He got really upset when I referred to him as a boy and kept asking me why he had a penis. He’d scream if I wanted to cut his hair. I occasionally let him wear pink T-shirts and necklaces under his clothes, but Bill wasn’t happy. He’s a man’s man â€" he didn’t like his son looking girlie.”

“I found him in the playroom trying to cut off his penis with a pair of craft scissors."
And when Danann turned four, Sarah made a shocking discovery. She recalls: “I found him in the playroom trying to cut off his penis with a pair of craft scissors. He was weirdly calm, saying: ‘I’m getting rid of this.’ I felt sick â€" but luckily he just had a few minor cuts.”

A week later, Danann’s GP referred him to a psychologist who told Sarah he was attention- seeking. But she wasn’t convinced it was that simple.

Sarah explains: “I wondered whether Danann was gay â€" at school, he started trying to use the girls’ toilets and queuing with the girls when they were divided into groups. Luckily, most children at his primary school were accepting.”

Meanwhile, as Sarah worried, Bill became increasingly angry about Danann’s behaviour. Sarah reveals: “We’d row. He wanted Danann to behave like a boy â€" but I just wanted him to be happy. I found myself secretly letting Danann wear a Cinderella T-shirt.

“I confided in pals about it and two gay friends agreed they thought he could be gay, but that his behaviour was very extreme. I was still left puzzled.”

Over the next two years, Danann was misdiagnosed with ADHD and bipolar disorder as Sarah sought answers. She says: “His schoolwork suffered and he started lashing out when I dressed him. I’d have bite marks and bruises. I was devastated.”

The situation came to a head when, aged six, Danann flew into a rage after Sarah refused to let him wear a dress to a party. She says: “He jumped out of the car and ran into traffic saying ‘I want to die.’”

'I told him he’d been born with a girl brain and a boy body. He just said calmly: ‘I’m a girl, I know.’
Sarah contacted her local hospital and Danann was seen by a psychiatrist. After a month of genetic tests and therapy, he diagnosed Danann with gender identity disorder â€" and, despite his young age, said he needed to start living as a girl.

Sarah explains: “He assured us there was nothing psychologically wrong with Danann â€" but we were shocked. Bill said he didn’t want any part of it. But for me, everything seemed to fall into place.”

The pair were stunned into disbelief for a week, but say watching a DVD about transgender children helped them come to terms with the diagnosis.

Sarah recalls: “We realised we weren’t alone and other families were experiencing this. I was so sad to let go of my little boy â€" but I knew Danann would be happy as a girl. It seemed so surreal to be making that decision, but I felt there was no alternative.”

The next day, Sarah explained what was going on to Danann. She says: “I told him he’d been born with a girl brain and a boy body. He just said calmly: ‘I’m a girl, I know.’ I explained we’d treat him as a girl, let him wear girls’ clothes at home and call him ‘she’ from now on.

“And when I said we could go shopping for clothes, Danann couldn’t stop smiling. She chose frilly pink dresses and sparkly shoes. We also bought some dolls. She was immediately less withdrawn. It was still strange â€" I’d never had a daughter â€" but I knew I had to do it for her.”

Two months later, aged seven, Danann started a new school and began dressing as a girl there too. Sarah says:

“We met with the headmaster and they were happy â€" but we decided not to tell the other children. We cut Danann’s hair into a bob, so they didn’t guess. Danann didn’t seem to struggle, she referred to herself as a girl and hung out with the other girls â€" like she always had.”

Sarah also confided in her friends and family, who were mainly supportive, although Bill’s family struggled to accept the decision.

Sarah adds: “I’d often get my ‘he’s and ‘she’s muddled up, but I got used to it quickly as Danann was so girlie.”

Now, two years on, nine-year-old Danann is doing well at school and is even a member of the Girl Scouts.

Sarah says: “Bill and I are getting on so much better, although it took time for him to accept things. Now Danann’s a real daddy’s girl. He takes her shopping and they’re closer than ever. James is also coping well â€" he’s very protective of his sister.”

Sarah says she’ll wait until Danann hits puberty before taking the transformation further
She adds: “Danann wanted to throw out all her boys’ clothes, but I’ve kept the pictures. I look at them and sometimes miss my little boy. But I know Danann is much happier as a girl.”

Now Sarah says she’ll wait until Danann hits puberty before taking the transformation further. She says: “The next step would be hormone treatment, but that’s her decision.

“If she wants to, she’ll take hormone blockers around 10, then start female hormone treatment at 15, which will make her skin softer, reduce body hair growth and encourage breasts to grow. I’d let her have sex-change surgery at that age â€" I know it’s been done before and I think at that age she’ll know for sure what she wants.”

She adds: “People may criticize, but I couldn’t have forced Danann to live as a boy. I’m glad she’s finally happy in her own skin.”

The only thing that really worries me for this child, is that I have some serious doubts, as to the level of pleasure that can be experienced, from surgically altered genitals, if(YEAH...I'LL SAY IT...) SHE decides on that option.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 14, 2017, 08:57:47 PM
I think this story, is about the child that I referred to in my earlier post, which first made me realize, that there is much more to this subject, than I had ever been aware. Only, where I thought that I remembered nail-clippers, it was actually craft scissors...

WARNING TO DREW: IF YOU READ THIS STORY, YOU WILL CRY:

Is Dannan psychologically justified in bein being "what she should be"?

Quote from: Cavebear on July 14, 2017, 09:05:21 PM
Is Dannan psychologically justified in bein being "what she should be"?

? I'm not sure I understand, exactly what you mean, by the question...but maybe it would help, if you read the short edit that I made to the post, right at the end, which you may have missed...

Solomon,

QuoteI think this story, is about the child that I referred to in my earlier post, which first made me realize, that there is much more to this subject, than I had ever been aware. Only, where I thought that I remembered nail-clippers, it was actually craft scissors...

WARNING TO DREW: IF YOU READ THIS STORY, YOU WILL CRY:

I read it, its a tragic story and I'm a sentimental guy but I didn't cry. I don't have a beef with people like Bruce Jenner, he's an adult, he paid for it (hope she got a refund). I don't have qualms with people (even children under proven circumstances) change their gender. What I disagree with is the idea that .06% of the population can force the 99.4% to accommodate their situation particularly when nothing more than say so is required. We can go to the theater of the absurd suppose I say I identify as being blind and request assistance. They're are grants given to woman based on being woman but if we accept this new standard, anyone can get the grants by claiming to be a woman 'inside'. I'm not interested in genitalia check if someone looks like a man use the men's room. I don't care and don't want to know. I don't like public bathrooms to begin with. My daughter is grown now but she would be absolutely mortified if she saw someone who has a penis in the girls locker room. There were boys in a school who were upset that a person with a bra and panties was in the boys locker room. They were told sorry if they felt uncomfortable they just need to accept it.

This will probably be a series of rather short replies...because I haven't slept in so long that is excruciating to lean forward and type for very long...

Quote from: DrewI read it, its a tragic story and I'm a sentimental guy but I didn't cry.

I mourn for the apparent death of your soul...

Quote from: DrewWhat I disagree with is the idea that .06% of the population can force the 99.4% to accommodate their situation particularly when nothing more than say so is required.

Well...it depends on what, "accommodate" entails...

Quote from: DrewThey're are grants given to woman based on being woman but if we accept this new standard, anyone can get the grants by claiming to be a woman 'inside'.

Really...I don't have a clue what you are talking about, here...

Quote from: DrewI'm not interested in genitalia check if someone looks like a man use the men's room. I don't care and don't want to know.

AGREE ON BOTH POINTS...WOO HOO!

Quote from: DrewI don't like public bathrooms to begin with.

Oddly enough...AGREE AGAIN...WOO HOO!

Quote from: DrewMy daughter is grown now but she would be absolutely mortified if she saw someone who has a penis in the girls locker room.

I doubt that, very much...more likely titillated. (This one will be a little longer, because I have a personal anecdote to share on the subject.)

When I was a teen, a girl I knew, told me about a boy, with a particularly large dick, whom she had seen, one day, running naked through the girl's locker room...the only other fact that I remember, word for word, from her story, was that her friend exclaimed, "Let me suck your cock! I want your sperm in my mouth!"

So.."mortified?" I doubt it.

Quote from: DrewThere were boys in a school who were upset that a person with a bra and panties was in the boys locker room. They were told sorry if they felt uncomfortable they just need to accept it.

Link?

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 14, 2017, 08:30:15 PM
I don't doubt in the majority of cases they truly feel and act like the gender they believe they are rather than the one assigned via genitalia. Bathrooms, locker rooms and other places have been designated by the genitalia regardless how the person felt about it. I resent the rest of society (particularly the military) being forced to facilitate what amounts to an arbitrary designation. Its also enforcing a social policy on the military because they can. Its not the place for social experimentation. I'm a veteran also. It was difficult but necessary for the service to accommodate woman in combat, it was difficult for the military to accept gays for a host of reasons. This is about as over the top as it gets. I can't imagine this can possibly have a positive effect.

One other comment, I've never watched it but there is a reality show called Jazz that documents the troubles and woes a trans-gendered girl faces.  First off the parents should be arrested for either child abuse or child endangerment for allowing this troubled teen to be on nationwide TV and share her sexuality with the world. I'm sure its me, after all I'm a theist God only knows what I believe, I can't believe any loving parent would do this to a child. I'm sure I'm wrong and this is just the new brave world we live in and I'm a dinosaur.

They are now taping the result when Jazz goes dancing and informs boys she's trans-gendered. They appear to be shocked that some boys don't like it. That's how it goes tolerance isn't enough there must be full acceptance.

The military has a practical solution to the bathroom situation, that would work for civilians too ... but the drama queens can't see it.  No group lavatories ... just individual ones, wheelchair accessible.  One person at a time goes in, complete privacy, nobody cares what your gender is.  You don't have to see Tampax dispenser on the wall, nor a condom dispenser (or we could put in both!).  We all get to put up with nasty graffiti however.  The problem is group lavatories have to be single sex.  So get rid of them.  There is no problem with individual ones.  This works everywhere.

And why do you resent what the military has to put up with?  I have worked with the military for half my life, and we (uniformed, GS and contractor) cope just fine thanks.  It was the military that first integrated Blacks ... many times now!  American Revolution, Civil War, Wild West, WW I, WW II (a step back thanks to the KKK), Korea (reintegration under Truman), Vietnam (a step back thanks to college draft deferment ... I am looking at you, Cheney!)  and today, where a volunteer military serves all too well.  We also continue to gradually incorporate women at all levels.

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 14, 2017, 10:49:31 PM
Solomon,

I read it, its a tragic story and I'm a sentimental guy but I didn't cry. I don't have a beef with people like Bruce Jenner, he's an adult, he paid for it (hope she got a refund). I don't have qualms with people (even children under proven circumstances) change their gender. What I disagree with is the idea that .06% of the population can force the 99.4% to accommodate their situation particularly when nothing more than say so is required. We can go to the theater of the absurd suppose I say I identify as being blind and request assistance. They're are grants given to woman based on being woman but if we accept this new standard, anyone can get the grants by claiming to be a woman 'inside'. I'm not interested in genitalia check if someone looks like a man use the men's room. I don't care and don't want to know. I don't like public bathrooms to begin with. My daughter is grown now but she would be absolutely mortified if she saw someone who has a penis in the girls locker room. There were boys in a school who were upset that a person with a bra and panties was in the boys locker room. They were told sorry if they felt uncomfortable they just need to accept it.

You have to accommodate left handed people .. the horror!  And like I said before, individual lavatories and ... the problem goes away.  If people are meeting in an individual lavatory ... then there is a different discipline problem.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 14, 2017, 05:42:12 PM
I spent 20 years in the USN and never had an official reason for inquiring as to a person's current genitalia circumstances.

Off duty was another matter. ;-)

The Navy was severe on gay sailors back in the day ... but that had a really long history.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 14, 2017, 03:46:25 PM
That is pretty much, how I will respond to a trans-gendered individual, despite what I personally believe about what they are doing. I realize that everything I said about this issue, could be somewhat misunderstood, because I articulated my opinion of the topic, which is based as much on how I feel, as any kind of seemingly cruel reasoning.

I first realized that my understanding of it was incomplete, when I saw something on TV, some years back, about a very young boy, who was trying to remove his penis with a pair of nail clippers, because he was so completely certain that he should be a girl, not a boy.

But I do tend to question, whether that little boy's experience is actually representative, of the average trans-gender experience.

Which is why, although I am still working on what I think about the trans-gendered, and feel that I should be able to say what I think, in a respectful manner, if possible, I would never impose my opinion on their lives, by denying them equal access/rights, or as I said before, bathroom options, that might very well keep them safe.

My main exception, to acceptance though(fully realizing, that the odds of this happening are pretty close to zero), is this: DON'T EVER SEDUCE ME, SUCK MY DICK, AND AFTERWARDS REVEAL YOU ARE, OR EVER WERE, A MAN! You can thank The Crying Game for that concern.

We have a fundamental issue regarding "variant" and "malformed".  Is a left handed person "malformed"?  We used to shun those people.  Now they are just a "variant".  Some people are even ambidextrous or have six fingers on each hand (now that is really weird).

Well over 20 years ago Anne Fausto- Sterling (sp) wrote a piece called "The five sexes revisited" in short, 1-2% of humanity are born with varying degrees of androgyny. At birth...for generations, doctors would make the decision which sex the child was. Hell they had a 50/50 chance eh? This article alone, changed my vision of human sexuality, that if humans could be born with a multitude of physical sexual differentiation's than certainly the same must be assumed mentally. That human sexuality both mentally and physically would be a blended scale that say, starts black on one side and the other side is white and as they merge hundreds if not thousands of variations of sexuality is possible. And the more meaningful truth, is that it is NOT male and female "he made them" , but humans, by evolution, like perhaps all animals and maybe plants, have varying degrees of sexuality, some of which cannot simply be defined. For hundreds of thousands of years we have denied that that love we have for our best friend is not sexual in nature, but is indeed still part of the scale we are part of. The other friend(s) we may have may not affect us in this way. Perhaps some of us get nervous that we "love" another person of the same sex, and may have a little sexual inclination towards that person, but never enough inclination to do something. We are among that grand scale, neither black or white, but a curious mix of grey. Worry not. We are normal.

Quote from: aitm on July 15, 2017, 08:05:58 PM
Well over 20 years ago Anne Fausto- Sterling (sp) wrote a piece called "The five sexes revisited" in short, 1-2% of humanity are born with varying degrees of androgyny. At birth...for generations, doctors would make the decision which sex the child was. Hell they had a 50/50 chance eh? This article alone, changed my vision of human sexuality, that if humans could be born with a multitude of physical sexual differentiation's than certainly the same must be assumed mentally. That human sexuality both mentally and physically would be a blended scale that say, starts black on one side and the other side is white and as they merge hundreds if not thousands of variations of sexuality is possible. And the more meaningful truth, is that it is NOT male and female "he made them" , but humans, by evolution, like perhaps all animals and maybe plants, have varying degrees of sexuality, some of which cannot simply be defined. For hundreds of thousands of years we have denied that that love we have for our best friend is not sexual in nature, but is indeed still part of the scale we are part of. The other friend(s) we may have may not affect us in this way. Perhaps some of us get nervous that we "love" another person of the same sex, and may have a little sexual inclination towards that person, but never enough inclination to do something. We are among that grand scale, neither black or white, but a curious mix of grey. Worry not. We are normal.

Thoughtful response and all of it may be true. On a practical matter it doesn't stop potential bad actors from gaming the system. If I were faced with this issue as a manager of a large store I would order 10 porta-potties and place them outside and use the reclaimed space to sell merchandise. In the service they aren't going to care how the non-trans-gendered feel about it. Secondly a man can become (or say they are a woman) but still be attracted to females. Its still a case of the majority having to accommodate a very small minority. Again there objective isn't tolerance but complete acceptance.

I ran across this site about some who regret having the procedure done...not sure how partisan.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

   

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 15, 2017, 10:32:28 PM
Thoughtful response and all of it may be true. On a practical matter it doesn't stop potential bad actors from gaming the system. If I were faced with this issue as a manager of a large store I would order 10 porta-potties and place them outside and use the reclaimed space to sell merchandise. In the service they aren't going to care how the non-trans-gendered feel about it. Secondly a man can become (or say they are a woman) but still be attracted to females. Its still a case of the majority having to accommodate a very small minority. Again there objective isn't tolerance but complete acceptance.

I ran across this site about some who regret having the procedure done...not sure how partisan.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

You seem to be obsessed by transgenderism.  Are you a closet tranie?  Cave bear is a bear trapped in the body of a man ;-)  Quite a few people are dogs trapped in the bodies of humans.  Or maybe they just saw 101 Dalmatians too many times ;-)

There are many levels of transgenderism, not just the stereotypical kind.  But you are right, this fortunately only impacts the lives of very few people.  If society was androgynous .. nobody would mind how you dressed or where you  went potty.  But we are a very sexist culture.

Quote from: Baruch on July 15, 2017, 11:28:39 PM
You seem to be obsessed by transgenderism.  Are you a closet tranie? 

Prior to it being shoved down my throat by the PC crowd I wouldn't have given it a thought. I never imagined even ten years ago this could possibly be an issue.

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 16, 2017, 12:03:54 AM
Prior to it being shoved down my throat by the PC crowd I wouldn't have given it a thought. I never imagined even ten years ago this could possibly be an issue.

So then ... this isn't a tranie issue ... it is an SJW political issue.  Do you vote Democrat?  If you do, you are voting against your own interests.  There are lots of other SJW issues ... why we need to let criminals, traitors, pedophiles and other oppressed people serve in the military and get other social benefits.

Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 16, 2017, 12:03:54 AM
Prior to it being shoved down my throat by the PC crowd I wouldn't have given it a thought. I never imagined even ten years ago this could possibly be an issue.

And do you like having it shoved down your throat? Totally okay if you do, of course. I've been declared "hopelessly hetero" by experts.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 16, 2017, 08:05:11 AM
And do you like having it shoved down your throat? Totally okay if you do, of course. I've been declared "hopelessly hetero" by experts.

So are straight people Kekistani ... or are gay people ... or both?  Or is only Kermit?

Quote from: Gilgamesh on July 14, 2017, 12:11:24 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/6f0erRJ.png)

Moronic, ignorant and sexist.

Quote from: Baruch on July 16, 2017, 07:30:23 AM
So then ... this isn't a tranie issue ... it is an SJW political issue.  Do you vote Democrat?  If you do, you are voting against your own interests.  There are lots of other SJW issues ... why we need to let criminals, traitors, pedophiles and other oppressed people serve in the military and get other social benefits.

I'm an independent but vote republican more often. I believe independents are the only people politicians actually court. This is a tyranny by the minority issue to me by people who volitionally choose to take this course of action and force the rest of civilization to accommodate that choice. I understand that some folks sincerely find themselves in a body they don't believe represents the gender they feel they are and its a shame this occurs as all physical maladies are.

Parents should be given a lot of latitude with their children and I fear government intrusion. Nonetheless I think its irresponsible for a   parent to allow their child to determine their sex prior to being 18. I'm probably just a curmudgeon on this issue. I don't think parents should give permission to children under 18 to get a tattoo just to show how archaic I am.

I know nothing about the other issues you brought up.

   

I am also an Independent who leans conservative.  But I am dismayed at the Marxist-Leninism of the Democrats, over the past year, particularly when they are actually Neo-Con warmongers in disguise.  The simple pro-business (not pro-wealth) POV of Republicans of yore, would have been congenial, but Watergate happened, and I blamed Johnson for Vietnam, not the whole Democrat party.  Over the decades both parties have lost my interest.

Yes, I do believe in conservative parenting ... and that a child isn't mature enough to make their own decisions until they are 18 or older.  But no, there is no tyranny by a minority.  A certain large party (1/3 of the US) are using minorities for their nefarious purposes, as they have since the 1960s.  The other large party simply is grifting for millionaires.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 14, 2017, 11:54:33 PM
This will probably be a series of rather short replies...because I haven't slept in so long that is excruciating to lean forward and type for very long...
I mourn for the apparent death of your soul...
Well...it depends on what, "accommodate" entails...
Really...I don't have a clue what you are talking about, here...
AGREE ON BOTH POINTS...WOO HOO!
Oddly enough...AGREE AGAIN...WOO HOO!
I doubt that, very much...more likely titillated. (This one will be a little longer, because I have a personal anecdote to share on the subject.)

When I was a teen, a girl I knew, told me about a boy, with a particularly large dick, whom she had seen, one day, running naked through the girl's locker room...the only other fact that I remember, word for word, from her story, was that her friend exclaimed, "Let me suck your cock! I want your sperm in my mouth!"

So.."mortified?" I doubt it.
Link?

That went a bit over the line...