How far did you go to find the god of the Bible before you realized he isn't real? What kind of crazy things did you do to get god's attention?
Here are a few things I remember doin (probably forgetting a few):
1. Praying while readin a Bible promise related to what I was praying for.
2. Praying for 3-4 hrs straight.
3. Prayin all night long.
4. fasting for 20 days before praying
5. fasting and praying at the same time for 30 days straight.
6. once when I was desparate I went on a hunger strike for 62 days.
7. clearing a room of evil spirits before praying
8. praying while burning frankincence oil in a candle
9. praying while burning frankincence sap
There was probably some other useless things I tried, but you get the point. I'm guessin you did some of these things and you also did other things that never crossed my mind.
I doubt you did the fasting or hunger strike ... unless you were an anorexic girl at the time ;-) Sorry if you actually did. Don't do that again.
Also most people clearly misunderstand the purpose of prayer ... understandably so ... because their only version of G-d is Santa Claus. Read the Book of Job ... people!
Quote from: fencerider on July 07, 2017, 02:39:14 AM
How far did you go to find the god of the Bible before you realized he isn't real? What kind of crazy things did you do to get god's attention?
Here are a few things I remember doin (probably forgetting a few):
1. Praying while readin a Bible promise related to what I was praying for.
2. Praying for 3-4 hrs straight.
3. Prayin all night long.
4. fasting for 20 days before praying
5. fasting and praying at the same time for 30 days straight.
6. once when I was desparate I went on a hunger strike for 62 days.
7. clearing a room of evil spirits before praying
8. praying while burning frankincence oil in a candle
9. praying while burning frankincence sap
There was probably some other useless things I tried, but you get the point. I'm guessin you did some of these things and you also did other things that never crossed my mind.
Oh, no. You did it all wrong. See, first you have to be baptized in Jesus name. Or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Or was it Holy Spirit? You know how fickle God can be, you have to use the right name(s) or it doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you're baptized by full emersion. Sprinkling doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you really mean it when you do it, or it's invalid. Actually, baptism is just an expression of faith, so none of that matters anyway. You need to be baptized in the Spirit to be born again. Make sure you ask specifically to be saved. It's not enough to believe. You have to confess you believe, because God is omniscient, but he still needs you to tell him these things. Keep praying until you feel the Holy Ghost in you and start speaking in tongues. Or don't. I can't remember. But anyway, one thing is crystal clear. If you're an ex-Christian now, you were obviously never a true believer to begin with.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 07, 2017, 11:00:42 AM
Oh, no. You did it all wrong. See, first you have to be baptized in Jesus name. Or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Or was it Holy Spirit? You know how fickle God can be, you have to use the right name(s) or it doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you're baptized by full emersion. Sprinkling doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you really mean it when you do it, or it's invalid. Actually, baptism is just an expression of faith, so none of that matters anyway. You need to be baptized in the Spirit to be born again. Make sure you ask specifically to be saved. It's not enough to believe. You have to confess you believe, because God is omniscient, but he still needs you to tell him these things. Keep praying until you feel the Holy Ghost in you and start speaking in tongues. Or don't. I can't remember. But anyway, one thing is crystal clear. If you're an ex-Christian now, you were obviously never a true believer to begin with.
And Verily I say unto you..............................
Quote from: fencerider on July 07, 2017, 02:39:14 AM
How far did you go to find the god of the Bible before you realized he isn't real? What kind of crazy things did you do to get god's attention?
Here are a few things I remember doin (probably forgetting a few):
1. Praying while readin a Bible promise related to what I was praying for.
2. Praying for 3-4 hrs straight.
3. Prayin all night long.
Probably not. We've talked and it does seem you understand the concept of prayer.
In the bible Prayer is identified only (in a couple different places, but same prayer same outline) once through Christ and it has a specific out line.
Luke 11:1
starts the outline:
One time Jesus was out praying, and when he finished, one of his followers said to him, “John taught his followers how to pray. Lord, teach us how to pray too.â€
2 Jesus said to the followers, “This is how you should pray:
‘Father, we pray that your name will always be kept holy.
pretty self explainatory, we should open and honor God with our prayer as well as the rest of our lives.
point 2:
We pray that your kingdom will come.
This means all of the stuff in the book of revelation you are asking to come to pass.
Give us the food we need for each day.
Here we can seek/petition God for our daily needs.
Forgive our sins,
just as we forgive everyone who has done wrong to us.
Here we are directed to ask for conditional forgiveness. Meaning God don't forgive me unless I can forgive others/God judge me the same way i judge others.
And don’t let us be tempted.’†then we are asked to ask to be kept from temptation.
That it sport that is all a prayer is according to Jesus. Now Paul later explains to ask for personal stuff even spiritual growth is identified as petitioning God. While God is obligated to answer all prayer, He is not obligated to answer all petitions the way we want.
In light of this second option and you general understanding of the outlined prayer offered by Jesus, is the reason I say I doubt you spent any measurable amount of time in actual prayer... I mean how long can one possible drone on about the destruction of this earth, for God's wrath to be poured out on the people, how much bread you will eat today... or all the sins you will forgive so go will forgive you.. did you really pray all night long asking not to be tempted by something?
Or were you asking God for crap to keep you on one side of the fence verses the other? holding your faith hostage till god met you on your terms??? Hell I've been apart of stupid stuff like that and know that can easily go all night long.
Quote4. fasting for 20 days before praying
and let me Guess God still did not meet you on your terms even though you envoked these "powerful cermonial rituals" shown to be effective in empowering 'prayer warriors'?
Bwahahaha
Context context context None of those people were looking to move the hand of God and traded a few meals inorder to do so!!! what kind of bankrupt deity trades a full stomach for a woman's want and will to marry a nutter who thinks God is in the hunger strike business?!?!?
God it must enrage you to even consider that God would empower someone as 'not christian' as I am after all the pomp and circumstance you put yourself through... Here I am and you can't hardly tell I am a christian by the harshness I speak to "you people" with, meanwhile you a stunning examle of the faith without measure goes on ignored! For goodness sake!I you to beat the holy hell out of people like you!!!
Quote5. fasting and praying at the same time for 30 days straight.
6. once when I was desparate I went on a hunger strike for 62 days.
Fasting in pop christianity= pouting. God give me what I demand or I will sell my faith to the atheists!
Quote7. clearing a room of evil spirits before praying
how does that work?!?!? do you shake your wankie around the room sprinkling them with your yellow 'holy water?' Bwahahaha!!!! Seriously BCV on that one...
Quote
8. praying while burning frankincence oil in a candle
9. praying while burning frankincence sap
Ayeiii stop please I am on the floor here... where how why would you think this... any of this had/has to do with the God of the bible? BCV where is the book Chapter and Verse that demand we do any of that crap? That's all religion sport.. your Whole list is all, empty religious practice that you think is tied to God. Meaning you think the God of the bible will honor your whatever because you did these things.. Yes you list is based on things found in the bible but are far removed from thier original purpose and context. Which has no application for all the petitioning you were doing.
So why didn't God meet you half way?
What if I said He did. what If I were to tell you your ATHEISM is a gift from God? it is a complete restart a clean douche out of all the religious poison that was keeping you from God.
If you started new and sought the God of the bible as found and talked about in the bible you would indeed find what you were looking for with a tiny fraction of the effort you initially put in. why because hopefully you will be doing things His way, and put down your sorcerers ideas on how to manipulate God by pouting/not eating.
I think I may have fasted a weekend in 20 years, and maybe a day or two after that period. I pray as Jesus teaches maybe once a week and I petition even less. But I have a daily open dialog with the holy Spirit hourly. sometimes only a word or two like "lord what do you want done here, or should I try and continue one with this project, or give me the structure or verses to back up what I am saying, and God opens the flood gates..
What you try and by with your religious ceremony was gifted to me. why? because God promised this to everyone who sought out the Holy Spirit... which brings me back to your list... When did you follow God's directions in Luke 11? When did you Ask When did you SEEK and when did you knock for the Holy Spirit?
Granted you can lie and tell me you spent days asking for the Spirit in prayer and I have to accept that, but when did you seek? or do you not understand the term? when did you open you bible and read? and when you read and you saw that your religious practices were not found or being used in the same way the bible has them being used? what did you change? according to your list you changed nothing. you stayed static and tried to barter your faith for ceremony... Now understand the God of the bible does not barter faith for ceremony, so then what you were doing was trying to barter with a God of your own religious denomination. Now as that God does not exist and because you are an honest person you right identified that the God you worship was non existent.
However that does not give you the right to poo poo on anyone else, unless you know by experiencing where God is and is not. All you can say is the dark religious hole you came from was empty
Quote
There was probably some other useless things I tried, but you get the point. I'm guessin you did some of these things and you also did other things that never crossed my mind.
God's way is so much easier, you just have to hang on when the ride starts.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 07, 2017, 11:00:42 AM
Oh, no. You did it all wrong. See, first you have to be baptized in Jesus name. Or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Or was it Holy Spirit? You know how fickle God can be, you have to use the right name(s) or it doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you're baptized by full emersion. Sprinkling doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you really mean it when you do it, or it's invalid. Actually, baptism is just an expression of faith, so none of that matters anyway. You need to be baptized in the Spirit to be born again. Make sure you ask specifically to be saved. It's not enough to believe. You have to confess you believe, because God is omniscient, but he still needs you to tell him these things. Keep praying until you feel the Holy Ghost in you and start speaking in tongues. Or don't. I can't remember. But anyway, one thing is crystal clear. If you're an ex-Christian now, you were obviously never a true believer to begin with.
Why make the effort if you do not make any effort to understand?
You a-holes go through the motions and because you check off boxes in a religious list someplace you feel entitled. I can promise you that all of you whom feel entitled will get what they are entitled to.
In the Lord's Prayer ... not sins, not trespasses ... but debts ... per Matthew 6. Being in debtor's prison was an immediate issue, not sin.
"Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." .... from ESV
... ὀφειλήμαÏ,,α ... ὀφειλÎÏ,,αιÏ, both of which mean "debt". Other translations say different, but that reflects the bias of the translators.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 07, 2017, 01:19:54 PM
Why make the effort if you do not make any effort to understand?
You a-holes go through the motions and because you check off boxes in a religious list someplace you feel entitled. I can promise you that all of you whom feel entitled will get what they are entitled to.
Congratulations in proving my point in your previous post. I know you didn't do it on purpose because you lack any basic sense of self-awareness, but I appreciate you having my back.
I prayed for knowledge of God and read the Bible I prayed to believe. Had I been given belief, I think I would have accepted belief as evidence of God's existence, but I'm doubtful that I would have maintained such self deception forever. But there always remains the overriding lack of evidence that continues to exist whether you believe or not. I could not overcome that.
In the end, belief is not knowledge. It is not evidence. It's only belief, and claiming anything more is semantic gibberish. Neither believers or non believers have any claim to truth. Actual truth lies far beyond belief, so far beyond that it is not available to any of us except as a mind game we might play with ourselves where we claim to have such ultimate truth.
Quote from: SGOS on July 07, 2017, 03:42:21 PM
I prayed for knowledge of God and read the Bible I prayed to believe. Had I been given belief, I think I would have accepted belief as evidence of God's existence, but I'm doubtful that I would have maintained such self deception forever. But there always remains the overriding lack of evidence that continues to exist whether you believe or not. I could not overcome that.
In the end, belief is not knowledge. It is not evidence. It's only belief, and claiming anything more is semantic gibberish. Neither believers or non believers have any claim to truth. Actual truth lies far beyond belief, so far beyond that it is not available to any of us except as a mind game we might play with ourselves where we claim to have such ultimate truth.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." What a load of gibberish this is. Substance of things you don't have, and invisible evidence. lol
Quote from: SGOS on July 07, 2017, 03:42:21 PM
I prayed for knowledge of God and read the Bible I prayed to believe. Had I been given belief, I think I would have accepted belief as evidence of God's existence, but I'm doubtful that I would have maintained such self deception forever. But there always remains the overriding lack of evidence that continues to exist whether you believe or not. I could not overcome that.
In the end, belief is not knowledge. It is not evidence. It's only belief, and claiming anything more is semantic gibberish. Neither believers or non believers have any claim to truth. Actual truth lies far beyond belief, so far beyond that it is not available to any of us except as a mind game we might play with ourselves where we claim to have such ultimate truth.
The only knowledge you could ever gain, would be knowledge of your inner/outer self. Whatever that knowledge might be, it is just something in a person's head, it is a cumulative human experience. Solipcism is the dark heart of epistemology. If in your particular self, you were meant to believe X, you would have. And there are things you have believed, do believe or will believe. Even the belief that you know something.
Your problem is you want to will yourself to believe X. "will" is a different psychological category from belief. Life doesn't work that way. I can will myself to get out of my chair, and I am likely to do so. You can will yourself to fly like a bird off the top of your home, flapping your arms ... but I won't take bets on your chances.
Subjective reality isn't objective ... and objective reality is over-rated. Where two people agree, that is the seed of the objective ... but the quality of it varies enormously ... if both people are idiots, the quality is low ;-) And self knowledge is no different ... in that we have great conflicts of interest, so self delusion is likely. Every individual develops over time, but it is only the truth of their subjective experience that they gain.
Part of that subjective experience is the the communication between individuals, which they call objective, if they agree. We call it objective too, but only if we also agree. A simple subjective experience that is also objective, is to count the change in your pocket. And have another person count it too. In one or more attempts, a single amount will be determined. But that begs the question ... what will it buy? That depends on inflation or deflation.
Being honest about evidence and what is expected out of faith, kinda nails the coffin of faith shut.
Quote from: Sal1981 on July 07, 2017, 04:47:51 PM
Being honest about evidence and what is expected out of faith, kinda nails the coffin of faith shut.
And in the long run, we are all dead.
Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2017, 04:45:44 PM
The only knowledge you could ever gain, would be knowledge of your inner/outer self. Whatever that knowledge might be, it is just something in a person's head, it is a cumulative human experience. Solipcism is the dark heart of epistemology. If in your particular self, you were meant to believe X, you would have. And there are things you have believed, do believe or will believe. Even the belief that you know something.
Your problem is you want to will yourself to believe X. "will" is a different psychological category from belief. Life doesn't work that way. I can will myself to get out of my chair, and I am likely to do so. You can will yourself to fly like a bird off the top of your home, flapping your arms ... but I won't take bets on your chances.
Subjective reality isn't objective ... and objective reality is over-rated. Where two people agree, that is the seed of the objective ... but the quality of it varies enormously ... if both people are idiots, the quality is low ;-) And self knowledge is no different ... in that we have great conflicts of interest, so self delusion is likely. Every individual develops over time, but it is only the truth of their subjective experience that they gain.
Part of that subjective experience is the the communication between individuals, which they call objective, if they agree. We call it objective too, but only if we also agree. A simple subjective experience that is also objective, is to count the change in your pocket. And have another person count it too. In one or more attempts, a single amount will be determined. But that begs the question ... what will it buy? That depends on inflation or deflation.
That's solipsism and radical skepticism all rolled into one.
Quote from: Sal1981 on July 07, 2017, 04:58:01 PM
That's solipsism and radical skepticism all rolled into one.
You are ready to leave the monastery ... Grasshopper. Go forth and do likewise ;-)
Given that no two modern people can agree on anything ... I am not sure that objective facts exist anymore (paradox).
Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2017, 05:29:59 AM
I doubt you did the fasting or hunger strike ... unless you were an anorexic girl at the time ;-) Sorry if you actually did. Don't do that again.
Also most people clearly misunderstand the purpose of prayer ... understandably so ... because their only version of G-d is Santa Claus. Read the Book of Job ... people!
20 days of fasting is not a big deal. When I was younger I would go with out eating for 3 or 4 days just because I wasn't hungry.
Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2017, 05:29:59 AM
I doubt you did the fasting or hunger strike ... unless you were an anorexic girl at the time ;-) Sorry if you actually did. Don't do that again.
Also most people clearly misunderstand the purpose of prayer ... understandably so ... because their only version of G-d is Santa Claus. Read the Book of Job ... people!
Even Biblical authors couldn't decide what prayer was for, and it really makes no sense from a Christian context. They pray to ask for favors from an omniscient god who already knew what they needed, praying to God for certain outcomes, in hopes of him altering his perfect plan just to appease them.
well Drich If you don't know that fasting is in the new testament then I guess you didn't bother to read it.
You missed the point of the post. I asked for god to prove he exists before I started any of the things in the list. If you ask god to prove that he exists and nothing happens, the first thought comes into your mind is maybe I didn't ask right. So you try asking in another way. If you try every way you can think of and still nothing happens sooner or later you get to realize your wasting your time.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 07, 2017, 11:00:42 AM
Oh, no. You did it all wrong. See, first you have to be baptized in Jesus name. Or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Or was it Holy Spirit? You know how fickle God can be, you have to use the right name(s) or it doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you're baptized by full emersion. Sprinkling doesn't count. Oh, and make sure you really mean it when you do it, or it's invalid. Actually, baptism is just an expression of faith, so none of that matters anyway. You need to be baptized in the Spirit to be born again. Make sure you ask specifically to be saved. It's not enough to believe. You have to confess you believe, because God is omniscient, but he still needs you to tell him these things. Keep praying until you feel the Holy Ghost in you and start speaking in tongues. Or don't. I can't remember. But anyway, one thing is crystal clear. If you're an ex-Christian now, you were obviously never a true believer to begin with.
you forgot grovelling. get on the floor.
Quote from: fencerider on July 07, 2017, 11:04:25 PM
20 days of fasting is not a big deal. When I was younger I would go with out eating for 3 or 4 days just because I wasn't hungry.
I see why you were put in this asylum then ;-)
Quote from: fencerider on July 07, 2017, 11:16:34 PM
well Drich If you don't know that fasting is in the new testament then I guess you didn't bother to read it.
You missed the point of the post. I asked for god to prove he exists before I started any of the things in the list. If you ask god to prove that he exists and nothing happens, the first thought comes into your mind is maybe I didn't ask right. So you try asking in another way. If you try every way you can think of and still nothing happens sooner or later you get to realize your wasting your time.
You still asked wrong. But you have lots of company. You are more a Pharisee than I am.
Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2017, 04:45:44 PM
Your problem is you want to will yourself to believe X. "will" is a different psychological category from belief. Life doesn't work that way. I can will myself to get out of my chair, and I am likely to do so. You can will yourself to fly like a bird off the top of your home, flapping your arms ... but I won't take bets on your chances.
Yes, you cannot will yourself to believe, a thing lost on most theists who apparently think that since they believe, anyone with any common sense should be able to believe anything. Even when being coached by an old Christian Lady who told me to pray for belief, I could not understand how desire (which I had) could create belief (which I didn't have). In addition, the whole concept of prayer creating belief requires a belief that prayer can create belief.
Christian: But Damit all! You could believe if you just believed.
Me: But I don't believe.
Christian: But you could believe if you really believed.
Me: Yes, you see the problem then.
Christian: What problem?
I tried it for a year, but having no results, I altered my quest from prayer and will to a more cerebral search for evidence. I also fashioned various God concepts that did not contradict themselves or defy reality the way Christianity does. But doing that you end up with something you fully realize is nothing more than your own concoction, still without evidence, even if it avoids the glaring absurdities of Christianity. At that point you realize is all it's all the same; It's all just unwarranted myths and memes that only make you happy if you actually believe them.
Will and desire are in a different psychological category than belief. I like how you articulated that. If I were grading papers, I would mark that with a positive comment.
When we are young, we don't know what we are doing. Some people, after long experience, still might not know what they are doing. People don't come with instruction books (we write our own thru experience). We have no agreement on instruction books that are written (objectivity over-rated). Parents have no instruction books either, so the cycle of idiocy repeats itself.
Some people don't believe in free will. If one doesn't believe in free will, then one probably doesn't believe in will power at all. So don't arrest me for murder, my random cloud of atoms just had a statistical anomaly. We learn self, and free will as infants. When infantile, we don't know what we are doing. The lessons learned in infancy become habitual ... and we rarely attempt to revisit them, unless we are philosophers.
Philosophers are a kind of voluntary infancy ;-) They question the common sense that almost everyone knows already. What is common sense? Those habits consigned to the unconscious mind. What we share in the unconscious mind, is the collective unconscious ... but it doesn't exist apart from people ... and is purely coincidental. Do we both like tacos, and not know why we like tacos? Then you and I have tacos in our collective unconscious.
It took me a long time to come up with a theology that I consider reasonable ... I can understand why people give up. I had to redefine a lot of words, I had to imaginatively project myself into the mental space of the deep past. But I didn't use an immersion tank, or turn into a cave man ;-) It is discouraging to realize that most religious people don't know what they are talking about. If you get to your own solution, what is wrong with solipsism plus skepticism? What is wrong with being happy?
Your old Christian lady was being conventional. What she said to you, would only make sense if you already believed (as she probably did). It would make sense to her, but not to you. Besides that, using prayer for asking for things, even for belief, isn't its purpose, but misuse. The primary use of prayer is to move toward self reform. Take pride down in favor of humility. But this requires humiliation. Have you ever been humiliated?
Quote from: SGOS on July 08, 2017, 04:56:17 AM
Yes, you cannot will yourself to believe, a thing lost on most theists who apparently think that since they believe, anyone with any common sense should be able to believe anything. Even when being coached by an old Christian Lady who told me to pray for belief, I could not understand how desire (which I had) could create belief (which I didn't have). In addition, the whole concept of prayer creating belief requires a belief that prayer can create belief.
Christian: But Damit all! You could believe if you just believed.
Me: But I don't believe.
Christian: But you could believe if you really believed.
Me: Yes, you see the problem then.
Christian: What problem?
I tried it for a year, but having no results, I altered my quest from prayer and will to a more cerebral search for evidence. I also fashioned various God concepts that did not contradict themselves or defy reality the way Christianity does. But doing that you end up with something you fully realize is nothing more than your own concoction, still without evidence, even if it avoids the glaring absurdities of Christianity. At that point you realize is all it's all the same; It's all just unwarranted myths and memes that only make you happy if you actually believe them.
Will and desire are in a different psychological category than belief. I like how you articulated that. If I were grading papers, I would mark that with a positive comment.
Ya know, SGOS, that is basically how it worked for me. I tried hard to believe--pushed and pulled at it hoping I'd hit on the right combo. But nothing clicked. Unity was my last and strongest try at grabbing the belief golden ring. But it kept disappearing on me. Finally, it dawned on me that there really was nothing to believe in except belief itself; and everybody had a slightly different view of what the proper belief was and how to express it. So, I finally embraced atheism. What the typical theist does not grasp is that atheism is not a belief and therefore I did not simply change beliefs. My final step to fully embracing atheism was the realization that I no longer believed in anything and that faith was not and is not, a form of trust. Theism has this belief and faith thing going on and I don't do either.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 08, 2017, 01:26:50 PM
Ya know, SGOS, that is basically how it worked for me. I tried hard to believe--pushed and pulled at it hoping I'd hit on the right combo. But nothing clicked. Unity was my last and strongest try at grabbing the belief golden ring. But it kept disappearing on me. Finally, it dawned on me that there really was nothing to believe in except belief itself; and everybody had a slightly different view of what the proper belief was and how to express it. So, I finally embraced atheism. What the typical theist does not grasp is that atheism is not a belief and therefore I did not simply change beliefs. My final step to fully embracing atheism was the realization that I no longer believed in anything and that faith was not and is not, a form of trust. Theism has this belief and faith thing going on and I don't do either.
When I attended AA meetings, there was continual pressure to believe in a higher power. Some were adamant that true sobriety could not be achieved without it. One guy would often end his mini sermons by highlighting the necessity of belief, and then finish with the rhetorical query, "The question is how do you believe?" This was met with knowing nods. He never explained how this was done, so I never knew exactly what to make of that. Supposedly, the response to him made it seem that everyone knew how to do it, but no one ever shared the big secret. It's like they all knew, and everyone else was suppose to know, also. It's possible he didn't have a clue how to believe, nor did anyone else really know either, and that he just meant it to be an unanswerable question that was profound by the nature of it's own mystery.
But I think he meant it as a "seek and ye shall find" kind of thing, and that one could eventually know how to believe if they could find the faith. This is disturbing to me for the same reasons we are discussing here. There is no knowing how to believe. You either believe or you don't. There is often a knowledge base of facts or experiences behind a belief, but for unanswerable questions, there can be no knowledge base. There can't even be reliable experiences, and the higher power issue always comes back to belief without evidence. More specifically belief because one just believes. I can respect that someone believes a thing, but knowing how to believe in the above context is just nuts.
Quote from: Baruch on July 07, 2017, 01:49:49 PM
In the Lord's Prayer ... not sins, not trespasses ... but debts ... per Matthew 6. Being in debtor's prison was an immediate issue, not sin.
"Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." .... from ESV
... ὀφειλήμαÏ,,α ... ὀφειλÎÏ,,αιÏ, both of which mean "debt". Other translations say different, but that reflects the bias of the translators.
How is sin NOT a debt?
Quote from: SGOS on July 08, 2017, 03:05:04 PM
When I attended AA meetings, there was continual pressure to believe in a higher power. Some were adamant that true sobriety could not be achieved without it. One guy would often end his mini sermons by highlighting the necessity of belief, and then finish with the rhetorical query, "The question is how do you believe?" This was met with knowing nods. He never explained how this was done, so I never knew exactly what to make of that. Supposedly, the response to him made it seem that everyone knew how to do it, but no one ever shared the big secret. It's like they all knew, and everyone else was suppose to know, also. It's possible he didn't have a clue how to believe, nor did anyone else really know either, and that he just meant it to be an unanswerable question that was profound by the nature of it's own mystery.
But I think he meant it as a "seek and ye shall find" kind of thing, and that one could eventually know how to believe if they could find the faith. This is disturbing to me for the same reasons we are discussing here. There is no knowing how to believe. You either believe or you don't. There is often a knowledge base of facts or experiences behind a belief, but for unanswerable questions, there can be no knowledge base. There can't even be reliable experiences, and the higher power issue always comes back to belief without evidence. More specifically belief because one just believes. I can respect that someone believes a thing, but knowing how to believe in the above context is just nuts.
Blind leading the blind. For anyone, do you have something other than yourself, that is not only important, but more important than yourself? If you hang onto that, then you have AA etc ... it doesn't have to be G-d. At the low points of my life, a friend, a daughter, a coworker ... they have all been both important and paramount. That is what has kept me alive for the last 14 years.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 08, 2017, 03:07:45 PM
How is sin NOT a debt?
In the world of metaphor, a donkey could be a turnip. The conventional theology (bleh) equates things, such as sin = trespass = debt ... Newspeak from 1984.
The babble tells us if we pray. "believing", that we can tell a mountain to move and it will. Pretty sure lots of devoted folks prayed for a lot of stuff a lot less than moving a mountain...so far...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Quote from: SGOS on July 08, 2017, 03:05:04 PM
When I attended AA meetings, there was continual pressure to believe in a higher power. Some were adamant that true sobriety could not be achieved without it. One guy would often end his mini sermons by highlighting the necessity of belief, and then finish with the rhetorical query, "The question is how do you believe?" This was met with knowing nods. He never explained how this was done, so I never knew exactly what to make of that. Supposedly, the response to him made it seem that everyone knew how to do it, but no one ever shared the big secret. It's like they all knew, and everyone else was suppose to know, also. It's possible he didn't have a clue how to believe, nor did anyone else really know either, and that he just meant it to be an unanswerable question that was profound by the nature of it's own mystery.
But I think he meant it as a "seek and ye shall find" kind of thing, and that one could eventually know how to believe if they could find the faith. This is disturbing to me for the same reasons we are discussing here. There is no knowing how to believe. You either believe or you don't. There is often a knowledge base of facts or experiences behind a belief, but for unanswerable questions, there can be no knowledge base. There can't even be reliable experiences, and the higher power issue always comes back to belief without evidence. More specifically belief because one just believes. I can respect that someone believes a thing, but knowing how to believe in the above context is just nuts.
I think those kinds of people who talk that talk simply want to seem profound. And that they have privy to some secret christian message that only reveals itself if you become a 'believer'. And so, to prove they are a believer and thus a christian (and saved--whatever that means to them), they espouse to know the secret handshake and secret words. Of course their ministers talk like that, too. So, they can wink and nod at their minister with that knowing look--'Hey, we got it, don't we!' It's the Big Lie--the one that proves that belief and faith are real and work.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 08, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
I think those kinds of people who talk that talk simply want to seem profound.
While I didn't articulate that, it was what I read in his body language, demeanor, and the way he worded it. When I quoted him above, it was actually a paraphrase, because this was 20 years ago. So I doubt that I explained my read of him as well as I could. Still it was just a read, filtered through my experiences and biases. And while reading meanings and underlying psychological motivations can be misinterpretations, I felt unusually confident about that one. The glaring part from just his words alone, was that he showed no intention of explaining what so obviously begged for explanation. If he had no explanation, it would have made more sense not to bring up the thing in the first place. It would be like saying, "I have an extremely profound thought that I cannot understand." That basically comes down to, "I don't know what I'm talking about," so I'll agree that he was trying to sound profound and knowledgeable beyond normal human intelligence.
As a side issue, the fact that everyone behaved as if they all understood him is irrelevant, especially in AA where nodding heads and parroting AA slogans and catchy phrases is considered good form, lest one be accused of not seeing the Emperor's new clothes.
Quote from: SGOS on July 08, 2017, 05:53:00 PM
As a side issue, the fact that everyone behaved as if they all understood him is irrelevant, especially in AA where nodding heads and parroting AA slogans and catchy phrases is considered good form, lest one be accused of not seeing the Emperor's new clothes.
I've not been to an AA meeting so I take your word for it. But it sounds like what I've heard from others. But I've noticed this same type of thing in churches. A bunch of nodding and knowing looks.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 08, 2017, 04:48:23 PM
I think those kinds of people who talk that talk simply want to seem profound. And that they have privy to some secret christian message that only reveals itself if you become a 'believer'. And so, to prove they are a believer and thus a christian (and saved--whatever that means to them), they espouse to know the secret handshake and secret words. Of course their ministers talk like that, too. So, they can wink and nod at their minister with that knowing look--'Hey, we got it, don't we!' It's the Big Lie--the one that proves that belief and faith are real and work.
When someone says something and you understand it (because you both had similar experiences) ... then they might give words and body language to acknowledge that. Everyone who posts here is autistic. We don't do "social communication" very well. Of course, if two people think they have something in common, they might be wrong (deluded or lying). You as an atheist (even then) do not share a common experience that they had (if they in fact have that common experience). Talk about marriage around people who have never been married (the Pope for instance). Such people might pretend that they understand, or even delude themselves that they understand ... but unless you have been significantly married, then you don't.
There is nothing wrong with X, because Y had an experience, that X never had. But X will never understand Y on that issue. Similarly Y will never understand X, for not having had that experience. Mutual incomprehension is normal.
Of course just because two people share an experience, and interpret it similarly ... doesn't mean they are right in their interpretation. One experience, a thousand interpretations. But I won't deny in principle, that people have experiences, and any two people may have had an experience in common. We have a saying .. two Jews, three opinions.
As far as intent goes .. every American is a grifter, and so are you ;-)
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 07, 2017, 02:37:01 PM
Congratulations in proving my point in your previous post. I know you didn't do it on purpose because you lack any basic sense of self-awareness, but I appreciate you having my back.
Congratulations in proving my point in the above highlighted post. I know you didn't do it on purpose because you lack any basic sense of self-awareness, but I appreciate you having my back.
Otherwise you would have attempted to answer the question you responded to... Why make an effort if it does not correspond to the bible? If you seek to worship the God of the bible why follow a religion in a different direction?
Quote from: SGOS on July 07, 2017, 03:42:21 PM
I prayed for knowledge of God and read the Bible I prayed to believe. Had I been given belief, I think I would have accepted belief as evidence of God's existence, but I'm doubtful that I would have maintained such self deception forever. But there always remains the overriding lack of evidence that continues to exist whether you believe or not. I could not overcome that.
In the end, belief is not knowledge. It is not evidence. It's only belief, and claiming anything more is semantic gibberish. Neither believers or non believers have any claim to truth. Actual truth lies far beyond belief, so far beyond that it is not available to any of us except as a mind game we might play with ourselves where we claim to have such ultimate truth.
And if God were the evidence? Now what if you had direct access to God, or a clear as a bell awareness of God apart from any guideance or religious interpretation?
How long do you think you could sustain you belief system then?
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 07, 2017, 03:58:25 PM
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." What a load of gibberish this is. Substance of things you don't have, and invisible evidence. lol
A true fool. I give you a clear understanding you return to mucky waters to pretend not to understand...
Good job there ace you've fool only people like you who want to be fooled.
Faith is the belief in what others have found and the belief that if you follow their path it will be there for you as well. Faith is a belief in a system unknown to you but known by others, to exercise faith in such a system is contingent on your belief in the experiences of those who have completed that journey. To ask them questions that only someone who knows God could know to seek the blessings and to understand what God has given them to observe what changes were made to them and to continue this process till you find What others have found.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 07, 2017, 11:11:27 PM
Even Biblical authors couldn't decide what prayer was for, and it really makes no sense from a Christian context. They pray to ask for favors from an omniscient god who already knew what they needed, praying to God for certain outcomes, in hopes of him altering his perfect plan just to appease them.
They petitioned God to do something in their favor.
To Pray is to have God change you to His want and His will not the other way around.
Quote from: fencerider on July 07, 2017, 11:16:34 PM
well Drich If you don't know that fasting is in the new testament then I guess you didn't bother to read it.
I guess you didn't bother reading my post.
Here Clearly I acknowledge fasting in the bible:
Quote from: drichContext context context None of those people were looking to move the hand of God and traded a few meals inorder to do so!!! what kind of bankrupt deity trades a full stomach for a woman's want and will to marry a nutter who thinks God is in the hunger strike business?!?!?
But I also point out that fasting found in the bible had nothing to do with what you called fasting.
Understand? I separated what biblical fasting is defined as, from what you did. In other words just because you label an effort of yours after a biblical ceremony, does not mean God will bless it as such. In order to receive God's blessing we must look at what the ceremony instilled from beginning to end and not just pick out a key observance and then say we are "fasting" in this case. There is a hell of a lot more to fasting then just not eating in exchange for a wish graned.
Quote
You missed the point of the post. I asked for god to prove he exists before I started any of the things in the list.
and you missed the point sport! What IF! YOU VERSION OF GOD DOES NOT EXIST!?!?!!
Turn to the Bible How Does JESUS Himself Say He Will Help Those Identify Themselves as Worshiping a false God or the wrong way???
Jesus Said God will send the winds and the rain to destroy your FAITH!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu5bBDRpzPMListen to the song, it is not just a taunt. It is a message that we have lost the meaning of. The house is all your religious crap.. all of your religious dressing the fasting prayer good deeds sunday attendance all of it. that is your faith/house. Now if your version of God is false it is the same as building the same house I built, but without a foundation. you can pray and fast but if there is no one to support your belief structure God Himself tells us what we built will Fall.
Your house failed. Why? because you asked God for proof. God gave you proof that your version of God does not exist.
From that all you should be able to say is that your religion's idea of God is wrong. but rather than say that, you assume that all religions are wrong because you are or would have been God's "special" little man.
Wake up douche, before we are called 'sons' we are first brought into God's house as servants/slaves. So no God isn't going to meet you 1/2 way. Not on this. He may grant you salvation still, but this is not a matter of salvation this is a matter of eternal currency, your value and closness to God. It is Not about His value to you. That means you are required to meet Him on His Terms.
So go find a rock and start to build on that and see if next time when it rains God doesn't show up to keep what you built in place.
Quote
If you ask god to prove that he exists and nothing happens, the first thought comes into your mind is maybe I didn't ask right.
and then this God does not exist. Then you should exaimine your religion against what the bible says. if it is different anywhere then know You are not worshiping the same God. I can not speak for your religion as I do not know it's God. However I do know the God the bible represents is alive and active.
QuoteSo you try asking in another way. If you try every way you can think of and still nothing happens sooner or later you get to realize your wasting your time.
And if you do it the way God tells you HE not me promised to bless you with the Holy Spirit.. Perhaps a small measure at first, but you will grow and learn how to interact with God Himself. If that is what you want.
Truthfully what do I have to gain by telling otherwise?
I represent no organization, I have not nor ever will ask for anything, I don't know any of you... I am simply someone who knows without shame or doubt that the bible is true, and that the God of the bible is alive and well. and that we all have access to God if we so desire. Just gotta do things his way first. He is indeed God, who can argue?
I went straight from a very early understanding that there was no Santa Claus straight to atheist. I skipped the whole deity idea as "the same idea". I would say that god was the adult version of Santa Claus, but I don't really consider theists to be quite "adult". Adult suggests a mature mind.
I never did any of those things that I can recall, mainly because I didn't feel the need to ask for proof at the time. My parents told me there was one and I accepted that on face value -- as children do. Later, after I converted to Wicca, my prayers were of a nature where I didn't ask for things, I asked for understanding why things happened the way they did. And then eventually I quit the whole god/gods thing altogether as I realized it was both a waste of time philosophically and unsupported factually.
Quote from: trdsf on July 12, 2017, 12:55:20 PM
I never did any of those things that I can recall, mainly because I didn't feel the need to ask for proof at the time. My parents told me there was one and I accepted that on face value -- as children do. Later, after I converted to Wicca, my prayers were of a nature where I didn't ask for things, I asked for understanding why things happened the way they did. And then eventually I quit the whole god/gods thing altogether as I realized it was both a waste of time philosophically and unsupported factually.
In Wicca ... did you ever worship "Sky Clad" ... were you cute?
Quote from: trdsf on July 12, 2017, 12:55:20 PM
I asked for understanding why things happened the way they did. And then eventually I quit the whole god/gods thing altogether as I realized it was both a waste of time philosophically and unsupported factually.
Asking "for understanding why things happened the way they did" is sensible. It is the expectation that some supernatural being did it that is not...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 11, 2017, 07:36:25 AM...I don't really consider theists to be quite "adult". Adult suggests a mature mind.
I do understand what you are saying...but having attended Bible college, for a couple of years...I have to say,
that isn't always true. Several of my professors were, in fact, highly intelligent, and taught me a great deal, about non-Christian subjects, including history, historical literature, creative writing and, surprisingly enough...logic.
At the same time though, I see that you have good point("intelligent," and "adult," not always being the same thing), since the teacher, that I still consider my biggest influence, and the "smartest of the bunch," has apparently decided not to talk to me anymore, ever since I emailed him a link to my website, for a critique(which he said he would be glad to give, in his reply) of my poetry...
Which is made all the more sad, by the fact, that I actually visited his home, on more than one occasion, and considered him both a mentor, and a friend.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 14, 2017, 04:59:54 AM
I do understand what you are saying...but having attended Bible college, for a couple of years...I have to say, that isn't always true. Several of my professors were, in fact, highly intelligent, and taught me a great deal, about non-Christian subjects, including history, historical literature, creative writing and, surprisingly enough...logic.
At the same time though, I see that you have good point("intelligent," and "adult," not always being the same thing), since the teacher, that I still consider my biggest influence, and the "smartest of the bunch," has apparently decided not to talk to me anymore, ever since I emailed him a link to my website, for a critique(which he said he would be glad to give, in his reply) of my poetry...
Which is made all the more sad, by the fact, that I actually visited his home, on more than one occasion, and considered him both a mentor, and a friend.
One can be both highly educated in a subject and still be a general idiot. I made great effort in college and after to learn the basics of almost everything. And the more religious the subject, the greater the idiot...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 14, 2017, 04:21:03 AM
Asking "for understanding why things happened the way they did" is sensible. It is the expectation that some supernatural being did it that is not...
*shrug* Much like any of the rest of us here who used to be believers, it made sense at the time. Eventually, I did come to understand, and that's why I'm not a theist of either the mono- or poly- type anymore.
Quote from: trdsf on July 14, 2017, 10:56:56 AM
*shrug* Much like any of the rest of us here who used to be believers, it made sense at the time. Eventually, I did come to understand, and that's why I'm not a theist of either the mono- or poly- type anymore.
Maybe that's why I'm not understanding. I never was. I'm serious, I don't even understand "conversion". I've never not been what I am now.
I wonder how you can go from knowing god to a denier of said's existence.
Isn't that like claiming you didn't drink milk while you have a white rim of it on your upper lip?
Never mind, I guess.
I was on fire for God - until reason put out the flames.
I was never on fire, but I believed in God because my parents told me he was real. And they knew God was real because their parents told them. Then it dawned on me that it didn't prove anything.
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 07, 2017, 04:55:54 PM
I was on fire for God - until reason put out the flames.
Oh don't be a wet squib ;-)
Cavebear, to be converted you have to eat Uncle Ben's rice ;-) But then you will become Japanese, Chinese or something. Eat bamboo if you want to be a Kung Fu Panda.
Quote from: Baruch on August 07, 2017, 06:32:06 PM
Oh don't be a wet squib ;-)
(https://rlv.zcache.com/misbegotten_pathetic_damp_squib_cage_rattler_t_shirt-rcaba2c868c024943a38b19bf1e261e0e_jy599_324.jpg)
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 07, 2017, 06:37:10 PM
(https://rlv.zcache.com/misbegotten_pathetic_damp_squib_cage_rattler_t_shirt-rcaba2c868c024943a38b19bf1e261e0e_jy599_324.jpg)
Very pre-Israeli Jewish. Move to Tel Aviv and find your inner chutzpah.
Quote from: Flee thinker on August 07, 2017, 03:36:11 PM
I wonder how you can go from knowing god to a denier of said's existence.
Isn't that like claiming you didn't drink milk while you have a white rim of it on your upper lip?
Never mind, I guess.
Ah, but I didn't 'know'. I only
thought I knew -- that's the inherent danger in belief and faith. And really, I had better (personal and anecdotal) evidence for the existence of the pagan gods than for the christian one -- there, I at least had a conversion experience rather than just grew up being told it.
Also, I don't 'deny' the existence of a deity. Denial implies there is something provisionally demonstrated to gainsay. On the grounds of the total and complete lack of evidence,
I have no cause to accept the hypothesis in the first place. Until such can be demonstrated, I am under no responsibility to either provisionally accept the hypothesis nor to disprove an idea that has no concrete and repeatable observations to support it. Show me something to support the claim, and I'll be happy to re-examine it.
Until then, I have much more justification to call believers 'reality deniers' than there is to call me a 'god denier'.
Quote from: trdsf on August 08, 2017, 01:11:52 PM
Ah, but I didn't 'know'. I only thought I knew -- that's the inherent danger in belief and faith. And really, I had better (personal and anecdotal) evidence for the existence of the pagan gods than for the christian one -- there, I at least had a conversion experience rather than just grew up being told it.
Also, I don't 'deny' the existence of a deity. Denial implies there is something provisionally demonstrated to gainsay. On the grounds of the total and complete lack of evidence, I have no cause to accept the hypothesis in the first place. Until such can be demonstrated, I am under no responsibility to either provisionally accept the hypothesis nor to disprove an idea that has no concrete and repeatable observations to support it. Show me something to support the claim, and I'll be happy to re-examine it.
Until then, I have much more justification to call believers 'reality deniers' than there is to call me a 'god denier'.
So are you one of those fake ex-christian atheists?
Quote from: Flee thinker on August 07, 2017, 03:36:11 PM
I wonder how you can go from knowing god to a denier of said's existence.
I finally read the babble. Kinda sorted out the trash pretty quick.
Quote from: Flee thinker on August 08, 2017, 02:25:45 PM
So are you one of those fake ex-christian atheists?
You're going to have to define your terms. What are you projecting on to me, since it's pretty clear you didn't read what I wrote?
Quote from: trdsf on August 08, 2017, 04:55:46 PM
You're going to have to define your terms. What are you projecting on to me, since it's pretty clear you didn't read what I wrote?
I believe its the implication you were never a Christian to start with, suggesting you have no past understanding of the meaning of Christianity and so have no basis to criticize it.
I've never been islamic, but it doesn't take being born into an Islamic culture to know it's practices and beliefs are awful too.
Quote from: trdsf on August 08, 2017, 01:11:52 PM
Ah, but I didn't 'know'. I only thought I knew -- that's the inherent danger in belief and faith. And really, I had better (personal and anecdotal) evidence for the existence of the pagan gods than for the christian one -- there, I at least had a conversion experience rather than just grew up being told it.
Also, I don't 'deny' the existence of a deity. Denial implies there is something provisionally demonstrated to gainsay. On the grounds of the total and complete lack of evidence, I have no cause to accept the hypothesis in the first place. Until such can be demonstrated, I am under no responsibility to either provisionally accept the hypothesis nor to disprove an idea that has no concrete and repeatable observations to support it. Show me something to support the claim, and I'll be happy to re-examine it.
Until then, I have much more justification to call believers 'reality deniers' than there is to call me a 'god denier'.
Well said. Believers not only rationalize their own beliefs, they rationalize away the unbeliefs of others.
Quote from: Flee thinker on August 07, 2017, 03:36:11 PM
I wonder how you can go from knowing god to a denier of said's existence.
Isn't that like claiming you didn't drink milk while you have a white rim of it on your upper lip?
Never mind, I guess.
It'd be more similar to someone drinking water their whole life and telling themselves it's milk, then coming to the realization that they have no milk. Except, unlike god, we can actually observe the existence and nature of milk.
Once, in childhood, you thought there was a Wonderful Person. His name was Santa Claus. He gave you things. You LOVED Santa Claus.
Then one day you suddenly didn't believe in Santa Claus. Your mind matured to the point where it didn't make sense any more. You asked some friends about it. Some agreed, some didn't. But YOU knew.
God is Santa Claus for adults. Some never make the connection. Some do. I sometimes thinks there are 3 stages in life. Childhood, Adulthood, and Atheist. Some never get to then 3rd stage.
Last stage isn't atheism, it is cynicism (in the modern sense). Read Ecclesiastes, old man?
Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2017, 06:59:59 AM
Last stage isn't atheism, it is cynicism (in the modern sense). Read Ecclesiastes, old man?
The last stage is death. Cynicism, atheism, skepticism are just realizations along the way, and they don't come in any order requiring one to be final. And forget what Ecclesiastes says about it. That's a just a chapter from a book of what is basically rubbish. Not my first choice as a go to reference when I need to understand something.
Quote from: SGOS on August 09, 2017, 07:13:22 AM
The last stage is death. Cynicism, atheism, skepticism are just realizations along the way, and they don't come in any order requiring one to be final. And forget what Ecclesiastes says about it. That's a just a chapter from a book of what is basically rubbish. Not my first choice as a go to reference when I need to understand something.
Well maybe you haven't had the last bit of idealism kicked out of your crotch yet. Ecclesiastes and Job speak to me, you can refer to your DSM V manual if you like.
Quote from: SGOS on August 09, 2017, 07:13:22 AM
The last stage is death. Cynicism, atheism, skepticism are just realizations along the way, and they don't come in any order requiring one to be final. And forget what Ecclesiastes says about it. That's a just a chapter from a book of what is basically rubbish. Not my first choice as a go to reference when I need to understand something.
I understand. I'm 67 and beginning to understand my eventual death. But none of that involves any afterlife. Just mundane things like making a list of places for Executor to tell I'm dead so they won't bother with wondering why I vanished, the few objects I have of non-obvious value, what do do with my cats, etc. Practical stuff.
The legal stuff is all in my Will, but there are a lot of minor things that aren't legal matters.
Quote from: Baruch on August 09, 2017, 06:59:59 AM
Last stage isn't atheism, it is cynicism (in the modern sense). Read Ecclesiastes, old man?
You have that backwards--cynicism and then atheism; the default for any person who can reason.
Quote from: Munch on August 08, 2017, 05:27:59 PM
I believe its the implication you were never a Christian to start with, suggesting you have no past understanding of the meaning of Christianity and so have no basis to criticize it.
I've never been islamic, but it doesn't take being born into an Islamic culture to know it's practices and beliefs are awful too.
I figured, but I wanted to hear Flee's terms rather than assume.
I had actually been quite an enthusiastic little Catholic -- altar boy, lector, even toyed with the idea of going to a seminary and taking vows, went to one of the top Catholic high schools in the nation. I aver that I had been very much a convinced believer at one point in my life.
Happily, I learned better.
Let me make sure every new poster understands... I am not Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Moslem, Satanist, Bhuddist, etc. I am atheist. Non-theist. Not-theist. No belief in any deity and that includes "good" ones, "bad" ones and sci-fi ones. OK? Any suggestion I was, am, or ever will be is inaccurate just annoys the crap out of me..
Just saying that because some posters just can't get it through their thick skulls that SOME PEOPLE have no theistic beliefs and superstitions and aren't going to be convinced other wise by idiots quoting religious texts. May their breakfast cereal be filled with mouse-droppings...
Quote from: trdsf on August 08, 2017, 01:11:52 PM
Also, I don't 'deny' the existence of a deity. Denial implies there is something provisionally demonstrated to gainsay. On the grounds of the total and complete lack of evidence, I have no cause to accept the hypothesis in the first place.
Yep, as Charles Bradlaugh pointed out,
QuoteThe atheist does not say," There is no God", but he says, "I know not what you mean by God"; the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation.
Quote from: Cavebear on August 09, 2017, 01:21:09 PM
Any suggestion I was, am, or ever will be is inaccurate just annoys the crap out of me..
Do cavebears get the crap annoyed out of them in the woods?
Sorry, just thought I'd beat Baruch to it...
"the word God is to me a sound conveying no clear or distinct affirmation." I find this is true of most mutterings of ape men. Their mouths move, but it doesn't mean anything. See, rhetorically, let someone define your words for you ... and you are a loser. And if you corner them, they will say ... but those words don't mean anything.
Quoteܬܥ ܘܘܪܕ Ü"ܘܕ ÜÜ£ ܛܘ Ü¡Ü¥ Ü Ü£Ü˜Ü˜Ü¢Ü• ܟܘܢÜ'Ü¥ÜÜÜ¢Ü" ܢܘ ÜŸÜ Ü¥Üܪ ܘܪ Ü•ÜܣܛÜܢܟܛ ÜܦܦÜܪܡÜÜ›Üܘܢ
Ah yes, if you can't read the words, then they must mean nothing. Or you are illiterate.
Well, they seem to mean nothing at all to Google, so I guess Google is illiterate...
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 11, 2017, 04:00:27 PM
Well, they seem to mean nothing at all to Google, so I guess Google is illiterate...
The Deep State is blind and deaf. Like King Lear, it is too decrepit to rule wisely. Its children betray it.
AI is magical thinking applied to technology. If there was real AI, Google Translate could easily figure out what I wrote. Maybe if you can find a few British cross-word puzzle enthusiasts from 1940 ;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on August 09, 2017, 05:24:59 PM
Do cavebears get the crap annoyed out of them in the woods?
Sorry, just thought I'd beat Baruch to it...
We crap freely. And we pee in the waters beer is made of (that's why it is yellow).