Our sermon for the day:
Pick up your Christian Bible, and read the Sermon on the Mount, until you receive the spirit* of Jesus.
As soon as you receive his spirit*, THROW THE BOOK IN THE TRASH! THE REST IS POISON!
Can I get an "AMEN?"
(*Small "s")
You have to get the right message from the right version. There is more than one version. "Blessed are the poor" is more historical than "Blessed are the poor in spirit". This goes along with various version of the Our Father ... the more historical being "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". Jesus' message is .. upsetting to the authorities, that is why it had to be coopted or destroyed. You also have to realize that this is a message for Jewish folk being oppressed by a Gentile Empire.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on June 25, 2017, 11:47:00 AM
Can I get an "AMEN?"
I can give you an "apemen," but that's the best I can do...
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on June 25, 2017, 11:47:00 AM
Our sermon for the day:
Pick up your Christian Bible, and read the Sermon on the Mount, until you receive the spirit* of Jesus.
As soon as you receive his spirit*, THROW THE BOOK IN THE TRASH! THE REST IS POISON!
Can I get an "AMEN?"
(*Small "s")
What do you find so offensive about the Sermon on the Mount itself? Even if you think Christ was an insignificant lunatic the sermon itself calls on humans to treat fellow humans with the highest regard. What do you find poisonous about that?
Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 02, 2017, 05:13:19 PM
What do you find so offensive about the Sermon on the Mount itself? Even if you think Christ was an insignificant lunatic the sermon itself calls on humans to treat fellow humans with the highest regard. What do you find poisonous about that?
I believe the point was that the Sermon on the Mount was one of the few wholesome parts of the Bible. Go elsewhere and you'll find murder, sexism, slavery, child abuse, animal abuse, etc all under God's supervision. Even when you limit your reading to just Jesus, you have to justify him with, "Well, what he really meant was..."
Sorry, Drew, but I made a decision a while back, not to interact with you, on this forum anymore - and your complete misunderstanding of what I said, is a good example of why(and yes, I realize that this response is technically interacting...oh well). Blackleaf is more or less right.
I have been thinking, lately about the people, and ideas, that have influenced my thinking, opinions, and the way I try to live my life. And I've come to the conclusion, that, although I give my most excellent parents credit, for enabling me to love, in some very meaningful, positive ways, Jesus, or at least the "character," Jesus, has made a big difference in my life. To say otherwise would be dishonest.
All I want to impart, is that just because Jesus was just a human, and NOT the Son of God(even if he was someone's made-up character), doesn't negate the value of the Sermon On the Mount. He articulated so many concepts there, about the basic application of the principles of love, that he opened my mind to thinking about those things, in a way that had never been part of my thought process before.
To keep it brief(being it's now Sunday evening, not Sunday morning - and after all who the fuck has the time, or inclination for "Night Church..."), I guess I would like to consider myself, Jesus' Atheist friend. I disagree with him about his messianic delusion, but agree with him on the IMPORTANT PART: "Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you." And once you find the MOTIVE for that, somewhere in your heart, then you have found the GOLDEN NUGGET, in the otherwise mostly poisonous Bible.
Now can I get an AMEN?
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 02, 2017, 09:45:03 PM
Sorry, Drew, but I made a decision a while back, not to interact with you, on this forum anymore - and your complete misunderstanding of what I said, is a good example of why(and yes, I realize that this response is technically interacting...oh well). Blackleaf is more or less right.
I have been thinking, lately about the people, and ideas, that have influenced my thinking, opinions, and the way I try to live my life. And I've come to the conclusion, that, although I give my most excellent parents credit, for enabling me to love, in some very meaningful, positive ways, Jesus, or at least the "character," Jesus, has made a big difference in my life. To say otherwise would be dishonest.
All I want to impart, is that just because Jesus was just a human, and NOT the Son of God(even if he was someone's made-up character), doesn't negate the value of the Sermon On the Mount. He articulated so many concepts there, about the basic application of the principles of love, that he opened my mind to thinking about those things, in a way that had never been part of my thought process before.
To keep it brief(being it's now Sunday evening, not Sunday morning - and after all who the fuck has the time, or inclination for "Night Church..."), I guess I would like to consider myself, Jesus' Atheist friend. I disagree with him about his messianic delusion, but agree with him on the IMPORTANT PART: "Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you." And once you find the MOTIVE for that, somewhere in your heart, then you have found the GOLDEN NUGGET, in the otherwise mostly poisonous Bible.
Now can I get an AMEN?
AMEN!
And this --Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you.--has huge influence on my life as well. I loved that thought from the first time I heard it.
For a long time I thought this was unique to christianity. Then I studied a little bit and learned that it is incorporated into just about every culture that ever was. In my eyes, that makes it even more powerful than ever.
It's not perfect, nor in any way "Absolute," as I have occasionally argued with Popeye'sPappy, but I do believe it is the best attempt, at a perfect solution to the "human equation." And although I am certain that it is innate to almost all humans(basically, anyone who has ever been loved, has been "infected" with the "virus"), my admittedly limited studies, haven't turned up anyone, prior to Jesus, who articulated the idea, and the basic "starter kit" for applying it(judge not, turn the other cheek, forgiveness, etc...), in the way that he(or whoever made him up) did, to such a concise, and useful-as-a-code-of-behavior, way that he did in that sermon.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 02, 2017, 09:45:03 PM
Sorry, Drew, but I made a decision a while back, not to interact with you, on this forum anymore - and your complete misunderstanding of what I said, is a good example of why(and yes, I realize that this response is technically interacting...oh well). Blackleaf is more or less right.
I have been thinking, lately about the people, and ideas, that have influenced my thinking, opinions, and the way I try to live my life. And I've come to the conclusion, that, although I give my most excellent parents credit, for enabling me to love, in some very meaningful, positive ways, Jesus, or at least the "character," Jesus, has made a big difference in my life. To say otherwise would be dishonest.
All I want to impart, is that just because Jesus was just a human, and NOT the Son of God(even if he was someone's made-up character), doesn't negate the value of the Sermon On the Mount. He articulated so many concepts there, about the basic application of the principles of love, that he opened my mind to thinking about those things, in a way that had never been part of my thought process before.
To keep it brief(being it's now Sunday evening, not Sunday morning - and after all who the fuck has the time, or inclination for "Night Church..."), I guess I would like to consider myself, Jesus' Atheist friend. I disagree with him about his messianic delusion, but agree with him on the IMPORTANT PART: "Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you." And once you find the MOTIVE for that, somewhere in your heart, then you have found the GOLDEN NUGGET, in the otherwise mostly poisonous Bible.
Now can I get an AMEN?
You're right was my bad I misread your statement.
I haven't been involved in organized religion for going on ten years but that was due mostly to how NT teachings were applied and how people acted. I have serious doubts about some of the teachings of the NT. However there are many passages that are simpatico with the Sermon on the Mount. Apart from any religion because I believe we owe our existence to a Creator, that elevates humanity because the universe was created for us we aren't just the unintended by product of laws of physics. This provides a philosophical reason to regard fellow humans as special.
Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 03, 2017, 10:40:11 PM
You're right was my bad I misread your statement.
I haven't been involved in organized religion for going on ten years but that was due mostly to how NT teachings were applied and how people acted. I have serious doubts about some of the teachings of the NT. However there are many passages that are simpatico with the Sermon on the Mount. Apart from any religion because I believe we owe our existence to a Creator, that elevates humanity because the universe was created for us we aren't just the unintended by product of laws of physics. This provides a philosophical reason to regard fellow humans as special.
As per another post in "religion" posted a few minutes ago ... dogmatists don't think humans are special. Dogs are ... and cats are the only ones who actually know the truth.
I also have serious doubts about the teachings of the New Testament ... it is rather complicated, though not as complicated as the Old Testament on which it is partly based. My rabbi "gets" Moses, but doesn't "get" Paul ... even though we are both messianic. I think almost no people today "get" what it is like to think in terms of 2000 years ago ... how could, why would they? But antiquity is of interest, however we reconstruct it, and is an example of creative thinking and scholarship. What matters most is here and now however. Since I am not on the starship Enterprise, and Commander Data isn't a real android person, just an actor playing pretend, I won't take the his script as anything more than a myth projected into the future, rather than one projected into the past.
I think anyone who thinks of "creator" vs "creation" needs to spend more time thinking. I don't even think that is a good perspective to think with. In actual experience, people don't create much, we mostly re-arrange. Much like G-d is described as doing, at the beginning of Genesis ;-) Ex-nihilo creation, of a much larger universe than the Bible allows .. is simply not viable even for theists anymore. Per Judaism, the real issue is human ethics, not what physics G-d used to create the Big Bang.
Sunday morning, again...
Love is human. It matters only to humans(well maybe to some other mammals, as well, but...). As human ideas go, it is one of the most valuable concepts ever. And the more we reproduce, and fill up the world with humans, gradually encroaching, more and more, on each other's space, the more important love becomes.
Can I get an AMEN?
But "love" in a shitty language like English is ... dirty. In Greek, there is "eros", "philos" and "agape". If by "love" you mean "agape" ... then I agree with you ;-)
Otherwise the phrase "I love to kill people" ... makes a joke out of "love".
Quote from: Baruch on July 09, 2017, 10:37:22 AM
But "love" in a shitty language like English is ... dirty. In Greek, there is "eros", "philos" and "agape". If by "love" you mean "agape" ... then I agree with you ;-)
Otherwise the phrase "I love to kill people" ... makes a joke out of "love".
I actually
studied Greek, in Bible college, so...yeah...I hear you...and in one sense, you are correct...nevertheless, Baruch, strangely enough, in a much more basic sense, that has everything to do with
words, and yet little to do with
language, you are....
ever so slightly...mistaken...
I can't elaborate... as much as the instinctively,
self-glorifying part of me longs to...but even in my currently more-lucid state...
I KNOW...that I have discovered...
the best answer...to the
word puzzle(and you are, probably,
the only one who could have a
clue, as to what I mean by that). But it is
too valuable, if it is real/true, for
me to take credit for(the
"Jesus Mistake").
Yeah...I know...everyone thought I was delusional...when I said it, the other day.
Anonymity, is the key.
I can't say anything, whatsoever, that would lead the trail back to me...so this is as intentionally vague, as I can make it...and considering a lot of...things...this is really vague. The human world is going to
BEGIN to change, in a profound way...soon.
YOUR WELCOME...
Laughing Buddha asks, "Messianic complex, and actual messiah...is there really a difference?"
But, I just noticed, it's now Monday morning...and I was supposed to be in bed 2 hours ago. See you tomorrow...but on another thread...because, if you hadn't noticed...I only post on this thread on Sundays...
Quote from: Drew_2017 on July 03, 2017, 10:40:11 PM
You're right was my bad I misread your statement.
I haven't been involved in organized religion for going on ten years but that was due mostly to how NT teachings were applied and how people acted. I have serious doubts about some of the teachings of the NT. However there are many passages that are simpatico with the Sermon on the Mount. Apart from any religion because I believe we owe our existence to a Creator, that elevates humanity because the universe was created for us we aren't just the unintended by product of laws of physics. This provides a philosophical reason to regard fellow humans as special.
Okay, Drew...it's
Monday morning, and I'm violating my...
whatever...here's all I have to say...
something that we might actually be able to agree on:The concept of
Love, is much more important, than whether or not there is a
creator...
What do you say?To put it another way,
John said, "God is Love," but
I say,
"Love is God..." Which is correct? And is there, essentially,
any significant difference?Can I get an
AMEN?
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on July 10, 2017, 01:59:50 AM
Laughing Buddha asks, "Messianic complex, and actual messiah...is there really a difference?"
Who needs a fake messiah, when human beings are Earth angels? The rabbinic POV is that all messiahs are fake messiahs. If Jesus were the Messiah, then history would have ended 2000 years ago. In the Apocalypse, the direct encounter with G-d, there are no survivors.
And yes, "love is G-d" is subtly not the same as "G-d is love". Depends on what the cause is vs the effect ... or the third interpretation ... that they are the same ... in which case the action of love isn't mutual, it is reflexive. My POV is that humans have to take the initiative in all things, G-d is passive. The active G-d of Bible mythology is ... not realistic.
Quote from: Baruch on July 10, 2017, 06:18:30 AM
In the Apocalypse, the direct encounter with G-d, there are no survivors.
God sounds like the Dread Pirate Roberts...
(https://pastorkarendotorg.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/slide43.jpg?w=530)
It sometimes seems to me that christians try to re-explain the text of the bible in much the same way that Trump supporters try to explain away his tweets...