So as I said in my intro post I am here to answer and bible related question about The God of the bible Heaven Hell and even some religious stuff too. My answers maybe a little different that what most of you are use to hearing but hear me out often times I can provide a perspective that changes how you may look at a given subject completely.
So does anyone have any bible or God related questions?
No, we don't care.
(http://rs222.pbsrc.com/albums/dd124/Bleachgirl010/Processing.gif~c200)
nope.
ok I will let things simmer here and check back tomorrow!
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:41:12 PM
So as I said in my intro post I am here to answer and bible related question about The God of the bible Heaven Hell and even some religious stuff too. My answers maybe a little different that what most of you are use to hearing but hear me out often times I can provide a perspective that changes how you may look at a given subject completely.
So does anyone have any bible or God related questions?
Why do you Christians always think atheists don't know anything about the Bible? According to studies, atheists know more about the Bible than Christians do. Can't really blame you, though, when the only time you spend reading it is in church, with the pastor spoon feeding you what to think. Many of us were born into Christian households. Personally, when I was a child up, I was always curious about God, the bible, and spiritual things. I read books to expand my knowledge, even reading most of the Bible in my own time. When I was 17, I devoted myself fully to God. Nothing was more important to me than living my life in a way that would make God happy, whether in church or (and especially) out of it. I was involved in many ministries over the years, and gladly went to church at least three days a week. I felt more at home at church than in my own house.
But due to a variety of things, by my mid-twenties, my doubts grew and turned into resentment. Eventually, I realized that I was sacrificing my life for a god who either didn't exist or didn't give a damn about me, and I gave up on my faith. From that moment on, my thoughts have never been so clear. I could see clear problems with core elements of the Christian faith that my indoctrination previously blinded me to. So for you to come here and insinuate that I have something to learn from you is utterly ridiculous.
As a Greco-Roman demigod, a Jewish prophet, and a Kekistani ... no ... but you might ask me a few questions ;-)
Well, OP, let me echo what Blackleaf said. You do seem to be the arrogant person to jump onto a forum you apparently know little about and expect to 'school the ignorant'? At first glance I'd suggest you are the ignorant one. What makes you the expert? And why do you assume we don't know what your bible consists of, the many ways it can be (and is) translated and interpreted. Why do you think we are atheists???
The guy even admitted that he didn't read the bible cover to cover. Why that would help him answer questions about the bible is something that greatly puzzles me. Perhaps that should be my first question.
Drich: Why do you think that not reading the bible helps you answer atheist's questions about the bible?
Most here have experienced this in part ...
"THOSE ON ROCKY GROUND ARE THE ONES WHO, WHEN THEY FIRST HEAR, RECEIVE THE WORD WITH JOY. BUT THEY HAVE NO ROOTS; THEY BELIEVE FOR A TIME AND THEN FALL AWAY. THE SEED THAT FELL AMONG THORNS ARE THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD, BUT ARE CHOKED BY THE WORRIES AND RICHES AND DESIRES OF LIFE, AND FAIL TO PRODUCE GOOD FRUIT. BUT THE SEED THAT FELL ON RICH SOIL IS THOSE WHO, WHEN THEY HAVE HEARD THE WORD, EMBRACE IT WITH A GENEROUS AND GOOD HEART, AND BEAR FRUIT THROUGH PERSEVERANCE."
Said by a Jew to other Jews. But applicable to Gentiles also. Like rabbi Paul ... I am persevering to the finish line.
Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2017, 10:51:49 PM
Most here have experienced this in part ...
Many here have experienced Dirch before...
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 15, 2017, 10:55:08 PM
Many here have experienced Dirch before...
So if G-d isn't Santa Claus ... F him? If a poster isn't Jesus himself ... F him? What of charity to the stranger?
Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2017, 11:09:32 PM
So if G-d isn't Santa Claus ... F him? If a poster isn't Jesus himself ... F him? What of charity to the stranger?
I don't feel the need to offer charity to blowhards.
Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2017, 11:09:32 PM
So if G-d isn't Santa Claus ... F him? If a poster isn't Jesus himself ... F him? What of charity to the stranger?
Didn't say that. What I said was some of us know Dirch from other forums.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 16, 2017, 07:40:09 AM
Didn't say that. What I said was some of us know Dirch from other forums.
The clarification is appreciated. My original interpretation of your comment was that Drich serves as a holotype for certain theist visitors, which isn't off the mark either.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 15, 2017, 06:51:30 PM
Why do you Christians always think atheists don't know anything about the Bible?
Because if you did, yu like me would have found God and by definition could not be atheist, you might be able to claim to be a misotheist but you would believe in God.
Quote
According to studies, atheists know more about the Bible than Christians do.
according to studies far more research and funded Clinton was to beat trump in a landslide.
Quote
Can't really blame you, though, when the only time you spend reading it is in church,
Not realy that kind of Christian.
Quote
with the pastor spoon feeding you what to think.
Oh the irony is thick with this one.. Do you know how many original atheist arguments I've run across in the last 10 years??? Maybe 3. The rest are just take offs or spins Hitchens Voltaire or the like.
Quote
Many of us were born into Christian households.
No one can be born Christian.
QuotePersonally, when I was a child up, I was always curious about God, the bible, and spiritual things. I read books to expand my knowledge, even reading most of the Bible in my own time. When I was 17, I devoted myself fully to God. Nothing was more important to me than living my life in a way that would make God happy, whether in church or (and especially) out of it. I was involved in many ministries over the years, and gladly went to church at least three days a week. I felt more at home at church than in my own house.
in that time did you ever have contact with God? Ever heard the parable of the wise and foolish builder? Durning the time that paragraph represents you were building your house/Faith.
Quote
But due to a variety of things, by my mid-twenties, my doubts grew and turned into resentment.
Then God sent the wind and rain to test what you built,
QuoteEventually, I realized that I was sacrificing my life for a god who either didn't exist or didn't give a damn about me, and I gave up on my faith.
...and your house of faith fell flat. Why? you were seeking to worship a God that did not exist. Sure he was modeled on the God of the bible, but it seems you were looking to trade your good works for answered prayers...
Here's the thing. No where in scripture is that a thing. Meaning the God of the bible does not trade work for answered prayer. And if you are not worship the God the bible describes, He after a certain point will stop supporting Your version of God/your foundation built on sand. What he will do is send the winds and rains to test your faith and your version of God so hard an honest person will discover their verion of God does not exist.
Now a humble man says of course I messed up I haven't read my bible I sit in church and let the preacher spoon feed me who God is, and of course I got it wrong first time out! A proud man says I tried and if there were a God he would have met me 1/2 despite what the bible says.
But again Jesus Himself gives us the parable of the wise and foolish builders so we know what to expect concerning our faith.
Quote
From that moment on, my thoughts have never been so clear. I could see clear problems with core elements of the Christian faith that my indoctrination previously blinded me to. So for you to come here and insinuate that I have something to learn from you is utterly ridiculous.
which core? there are supposedly over 30K versions of Christianity.. which one was the right one...that didn't yield God???
I mean to me the right version would have you in communication with God. but to you the right version is the one that allows you to leave...
Riddle me this, is truth a concern at all to you?
Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2017, 07:21:48 PM
As a Greco-Roman demigod, a Jewish prophet, and a Kekistani ... no ... but you might ask me a few questions ;-)
Sure...
Hmm. Are you the type of 'smarty' who follows a thought through to completion or are you the guy who bails on a subject once his prepared material crashes and burns???
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 15, 2017, 07:25:49 PM
Well, OP, let me echo what Blackleaf said. You do seem to be the arrogant person to jump onto a forum you apparently know little about and expect to 'school the ignorant'?What makes you the expert?
13 years dealing directly with answering Christian/atheist questions in person and in on line forums 10 year prior study.
Quote
At first glance I'd suggest you are the ignorant one.
there are indeed many things I don't know about. However there are many things I do have a lot of experience and study in.
Quote
And why do you assume we don't know what your bible consists of, the many ways it can be (and is) translated and interpreted. Why do you think we are atheists???
because I have been doing this for a very long time. And I can promise as the bible promises if you understand God through the bible as it outlines, then you could not be an atheist. maybe a misotheist but not atheist.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 15, 2017, 10:25:34 PM
The guy even admitted that he didn't read the bible cover to cover. Why that would help him answer questions about the bible is something that greatly puzzles me. Perhaps that should be my first question.
Drich: Why do you think that not reading the bible helps you answer atheist's questions about the bible?
I have read the bible. just not starting at page one genesis and ending with last page revelation.
I actually started john and finished the gospel as all had to do with the same subject.
then acts then the epistles of Paul, then the works of peter and the other apostles. I read revelation with the book of Daniel which followed by the books of judges because all has to do with God's wrath being poured out on a large community then genesis witht he books of history, and then the books of the law, followed by the books of wisdom/prophecy and the books of writings.
So again the question "have you read the bible from cover to cover" is a trick question. Because the bible is not one single book but a collection of books and letters. One must read it according to subject matter or one signifies that he does not know what he is doing.
No I have not read the bible from cover to cover because I understand that is not how is it to be read.
where it so simple.
Let's get fundamental. What is the bible? Where did it come from? Who wrote it? How do you know?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
Because if you did, yu like me would have found God and by definition could not be atheist, you might be able to claim to be a misotheist but you would believe in God.
This sentence right here demonstrates why it is pointless to discuss this subject with you. You have stated, from the very start, that you will not accept any understanding of the Bible that contradicts your own views on it.
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/ronald-reagan-berlinwall.jpg)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:37:54 AM
Sure...
Hmm. Are you the type of 'smarty' who follows a thought through to completion or are you the guy who bails on a subject once his prepared material crashes and burns???
I don't prepare material ... I auto-didact ... directly from the Holy Spirit. You? And yes, per the Book of Job, I am a misotheist ... G-d is a monster.
"Riddle me this, is truth a concern at all to you?" - Pontius Pilate ... "what is the truth?" ... in some branches of Christianity, Pontius Pilate is a saint ;-)
"WHEN I WAS A CHILD, I SPOKE LIKE A CHILD, I THOUGHT LIKE A CHILD, I REASONED LIKE A CHILD; WHEN I BECAME AN ADULT, I PUT AN END TO SUCH CHILDISH WAYS. FOR NOW WE SEE IN A MIRROR, DIMLY, BUT THEN WE WILL SEE WHAT IS TRUE, FACE TO FACE. NOW I KNOW ONLY IN PART; THEN I WILL KNOW FULLY, EVEN AS I HAVE BEEN FULLY KNOWN. FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE ABIDE, THESE THREE; AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE." - Apostle Paul
"THE LORD HAS NO BODY NOW ON EARTH BUT YOURS, NO HANDS BUT YOURS, NO FEET BUT YOURS. YOURS ARE THE EYES THROUGH WHICH CHRIST'S COMPASSION LOOKS OUT TO THE WORLD. YOURS ARE THE FEET WITH WHICH HE IS TO GO ABOUT DOING GOOD. YOURS ARE THE HANDS WITH WHICH HE IS TO BLESS HIS PEOPLE NOW." - Teresa De Ãvila
But in real life, humanity is the human face of G-d, and human faithlessness, hopelessness and hate ... negate Paul's vision.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 16, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
Let's get fundamental. What is the bible? Where did it come from? Who wrote it? How do you know?
A series or collection of book compiled to explain who God is, our origins, our relationship to God, and God's plan for us in this age, and the coming end to the age of man.
Again it is a collection of books each book each letter has it's own origin story.
A collection of prophets, kings, priests, apostles, and scribes on the behalf of the Holy Spirit of God.
Because there are test set with in the bible where God invites us to 'test him.' and upon doing so will be rewarded with knowledge or some other spiritual gift the bible describes. in essence you ABC you get XYZ. if you are faithful to XYZ god will then give you more.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 16, 2017, 12:08:22 PM
This sentence right here demonstrates why it is pointless to discuss this subject with you. You have stated, from the very start, that you will not accept any understanding of the Bible that contradicts your own views on it.
If I have the key to the bible and can cash in on it and what is promised in it, then why would I accept a secondary understanding from someone who's (for the lack of a better term) "understand" has made them quit the faith?
For instance If I have and can read a road map to take me to NYC and from the road map been to NYC several times from several different starting points... Then why would I accept instruction from someone who own study of the map has concluded that NYC does not exist because in their use of the map never found it?
That said I will absolutely listen to anything you have to say, but I can and absolutely will provided properly documented counterpoints/source material to support my readings of given passages or history of scripture itself.
I always go line by line and answer every single question. you may not always like the answer, but I do answer everything honestly and truthfully.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:41:12 PM
So as I said in my intro post I am here to answer and bible related question about The God of the bible Heaven Hell and even some religious stuff too. My answers maybe a little different that what most of you are use to hearing but hear me out often times I can provide a perspective that changes how you may look at a given subject completely.
So does anyone have any bible or God related questions?
If god exists why in the hell would he make calculus? Further more why would he make it a requirement class to earn a Masters degree?
Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2017, 12:26:17 PM
I don't prepare material ... I auto-didact ... directly from the Holy Spirit. You?
we shall see..
QuoteAnd yes, per the Book of Job, I am a misotheist ... G-d is a monster.
and the holy Spirit? in your world is he then not God? or have you simply given that title to something else?
Also why Hate God per Job? God did nothing to Job except remove his protective 'shielding' from around Job. Satn was the one who rain down Hell on Job.. God allowed Satan to do whatever He wish including buying job off.. He did not even try his goto was to kill everyone Job knew... Seems to me you have your narratives confused.
"Riddle me this, is truth a concern at all to you?"
Quote- Pontius Pilate ... "what is the truth?"
accurate relayed facts.
Quote
... in some branches of Christianity, Pontius Pilate is a saint ;-)
truthfully IDK if Judas made it to Heaven, not my call.
Quote
"WHEN I WAS A CHILD, I SPOKE LIKE A CHILD, I THOUGHT LIKE A CHILD, I REASONED LIKE A CHILD; WHEN I BECAME AN ADULT, I PUT AN END TO SUCH CHILDISH WAYS. FOR NOW WE SEE IN A MIRROR, DIMLY, BUT THEN WE WILL SEE WHAT IS TRUE, FACE TO FACE. NOW I KNOW ONLY IN PART; THEN I WILL KNOW FULLY, EVEN AS I HAVE BEEN FULLY KNOWN. FAITH, HOPE, AND LOVE ABIDE, THESE THREE; AND THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE." - Apostle Paul
"THE LORD HAS NO BODY NOW ON EARTH BUT YOURS, NO HANDS BUT YOURS, NO FEET BUT YOURS. YOURS ARE THE EYES THROUGH WHICH CHRIST'S COMPASSION LOOKS OUT TO THE WORLD. YOURS ARE THE FEET WITH WHICH HE IS TO GO ABOUT DOING GOOD. YOURS ARE THE HANDS WITH WHICH HE IS TO BLESS HIS PEOPLE NOW." - Teresa De Ãvila
But in real life, humanity is the human face of G-d, and human faithlessness, hopelessness and hate ... negate Paul's vision.
Humanity is not the face of God it is the face of sin.The attributes you pointed out confirm this. God can be found in Love. Not the Eros you know but in Agape' what is Agape'? Agape' is patient and kind. Agape' is not jealous, it does not brag, and it is not proud. 5 Agape' is not rude, it is not selfish, and it cannot be made angry easily. Agape' does not remember wrongs done against it. 6 Love/Agape' is never happy when others do wrong, but it is always happy with the truth. 7 Love never gives up on people. It never stops trusting, never loses hope, and never quits.
8 Love will never end.
God can be found in Agape'
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
Because if you did, yu like me would have found God and by definition could not be atheist, you might be able to claim to be a misotheist but you would believe in God.according to studies far more research and funded Clinton was to beat trump in a landslide. Not realy that kind of Christian. Oh the irony is thick with this one.. Do you know how many original atheist arguments I've run across in the last 10 years??? Maybe 3. The rest are just take offs or spins Hitchens Voltaire or the like. No one can be born Christian.
in that time did you ever have contact with God? Ever heard the parable of the wise and foolish builder? Durning the time that paragraph represents you were building your house/Faith. Then God sent the wind and rain to test what you built, ...and your house of faith fell flat. Why? you were seeking to worship a God that did not exist. Sure he was modeled on the God of the bible, but it seems you were looking to trade your good works for answered prayers...
Here's the thing. No where in scripture is that a thing. Meaning the God of the bible does not trade work for answered prayer. And if you are not worship the God the bible describes, He after a certain point will stop supporting Your version of God/your foundation built on sand. What he will do is send the winds and rains to test your faith and your version of God so hard an honest person will discover their verion of God does not exist.
Now a humble man says of course I messed up I haven't read my bible I sit in church and let the preacher spoon feed me who God is, and of course I got it wrong first time out! A proud man says I tried and if there were a God he would have met me 1/2 despite what the bible says.
But again Jesus Himself gives us the parable of the wise and foolish builders so we know what to expect concerning our faith.
which core? there are supposedly over 30K versions of Christianity.. which one was the right one...that didn't yield God???
I mean to me the right version would have you in communication with God. but to you the right version is the one that allows you to leave...
Riddle me this, is truth a concern at all to you?
Jesus Christ. Do you need to address every single sentence separately? My post had two paragraphs. You somehow took that and turned it into NINE QUOTES! Have you ever heard of tl;dr? I wasn't interested in your bullshit to begin with, and I'm definitely not subjecting myself to your oral diarrhea just to tell you the millions of ways you're wrong, only for it to go in one ear and out the other anyway.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 16, 2017, 12:08:22 PM
This sentence right here demonstrates why it is pointless to discuss this subject with you. You have stated, from the very start, that you will not accept any understanding of the Bible that contradicts your own views on it.
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/ronald-reagan-berlinwall.jpg)
Oh, it's more malicious than that. He not only shuts down any ideas that contradicts his beliefs, he also dismisses the credibility of all former Christians. Because if we are no longer Christians, then we were obviously never really one of them to begin with. Assholes like Drich are too thick to be bothered with.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on June 16, 2017, 02:47:18 PM
If god exists why in the hell would he make calculus?
you are thinking newton and lizbin. They simple discovered how to mathematically chart the limits, functions, and derives God has placed in the world.
Quote
Further more why would he make it a requirement class to earn a Masters degree?
so that the term master degree means something. If it were easy everyone would have one.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 16, 2017, 04:14:52 PM
Jesus Christ. Do you need to address every single sentence separately?
it complete depends on how many thoughts idea or questions you cram into a post. I do pride myself in addressing everything everyone asks line by line. what seperates me from trolls. asI do speak very topically and on point.
Quote
My post had two paragraphs. You somehow took that and turned it into NINE QUOTES! Have you ever heard of tl;dr?
what I have to say is completely based on your posts.
QuoteI wasn't interested in your bullshit to begin with, and I'm definitely not subjecting myself to your oral diarrhea just to tell you the millions of ways you're wrong, only for it to go in one ear and out the other anyway.
then maybe exclude the cry for help/back story when you introduce yourself to someone if you do not me to comment on it.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 16, 2017, 04:18:32 PM
Oh, it's more malicious than that. He not only shuts down any ideas that contradicts his beliefs, he also dismisses the credibility of all former Christians. Because if we are no longer Christians, then we were obviously never really one of them to begin with. Assholes like Drich are too thick to be bothered with.
You misunderstand yet again.
I never said you were an ex Christian. As I am not in a position to judge your salvation. maybe you are still on the list maybe you never were.
I simply showed you what the bible had to say about fail faith/beliefs. That if you determine your God is not real because he did not save you from a coming storm or he did not trade works for granted prayers, then maybe that should have been a que for you to keep looking rather than assume you have a lock on all of Christianity and because your god was proven not to be real no God can be real...
Here's the thing folks. I did it the way the bible says and found God. That said, You need not find God or have God open the flood gates to you to find salvation. All I am saying is IF you like me need to be sat in front to look this being in the eye, then it is possible. The bible affords us this opportunity.
So again, never comment on your salvation as you could still be saved. I'm just saying there is a lot more to God than what you figured out. and if can admit to that then maybe you are the troll.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 04:51:26 PM
You misunderstand yet again.
I never said you were an ex Christian. As I am not in a position to judge your salvation. maybe you are still on the list maybe you never were.
I simply showed you what the bible had to say about fail faith/beliefs. That if you determine your God is not real because he did not save you from a coming storm or he did not trade works for granted prayers, then maybe that should have been a que for you to keep looking rather than assume you have a lock on all of Christianity and because your god was proven not to be real no God can be real...
Here's the thing folks. I did it the way the bible says and found God. That said, You need not find God or have God open the flood gates to you to find salvation. All I am saying is IF you like me need to be sat in front to look this being in the eye, then it is possible. The bible affords us this opportunity.
So again, never comment on your salvation as you could still be saved. I'm just saying there is a lot more to God than what you figured out. and if can admit to that then maybe you are the troll.
Kid, I know more about the Bible than you do. I was as genuine as they came. I did not quit because things got hard. I didn't quit because God didn't grant me special favors in exchange for my works. I left because God was completely absent in my life. He did not grant relief when I needed it and asked for it. Instead, things just kept getting worse.
Mathew 7:9:11 - "Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
Even the Bible is proof against God. And if you weren't so blinded by your faith, you would be able to see that. You might start to wonder why God, who is omniscient and supposedly hears all of your prayers, will not speak when spoken to, and why he'd rather communicate through silence and make it impossible to know whether it's him or your imagination. You might wonder why the only evidence that God gives of his existence is a collection of historically inaccurate books, which are so obscure that millions of people argue about what they even mean.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:51:32 AM
And I can promise as the bible promises if you understand God through the bible as it outlines, then you could not be an atheist. maybe a misotheist but not atheist.
Oh, I know your Bible's God well!
Here is what your Bible God is really like. (http://nullgod.com/index.php?topic=164.0)
Dirch ... do you live like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Living_Biblically
I gave you two likes, for part of two posts you made ... I expect to be crucified for it ;-( ... this is a rough crowd you have come to, like the Cantina at Mos Eisley.
Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2017, 06:01:26 PM
Dirch ... do you live like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Living_Biblically
I gave you two likes, for part of two posts you made ... I expect to be crucified for it ;-( ... this is a rough crowd you have come to, like the Cantina at Mos Eisley.
Unfortunately for you, we like our crosses upside down in these parts...
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 16, 2017, 06:06:56 PM
Unfortunately for you, we like our crosses upside down in these parts...
As long as you leave my "peter" alone, I am good with that. Gravity boots.
For DRich - here is some education for you ... the howlers/mistranslations in Christian and Jewish Bibles ... as corrected in the Aramaic
http://www.aramaicbibleperspectives.com/uploads/Aramaic_Bible_Institute_Dictionary_1-20-13.pdf
Unfortunately most people's access to scripture is thru translations, filtered thru the accidental distortions of translators and deliberate distortions of theologians.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
Because if you did, yu like me would have found God and by definition could not be atheist, you might be able to claim to be a misotheist but you would believe in God.according to studies far more research and funded Clinton was to beat trump in a landslide. Not realy that kind of Christian. Oh the irony is thick with this one.. Do you know how many original atheist arguments I've run across in the last 10 years??? Maybe 3. The rest are just take offs or spins Hitchens Voltaire or the like. No one can be born Christian.
in that time did you ever have contact with God? Ever heard the parable of the wise and foolish builder? Durning the time that paragraph represents you were building your house/Faith. Then God sent the wind and rain to test what you built, ...and your house of faith fell flat. Why? you were seeking to worship a God that did not exist. Sure he was modeled on the God of the bible, but it seems you were looking to trade your good works for answered prayers...
Here's the thing. No where in scripture is that a thing. Meaning the God of the bible does not trade work for answered prayer. And if you are not worship the God the bible describes, He after a certain point will stop supporting Your version of God/your foundation built on sand. What he will do is send the winds and rains to test your faith and your version of God so hard an honest person will discover their verion of God does not exist.
Now a humble man says of course I messed up I haven't read my bible I sit in church and let the preacher spoon feed me who God is, and of course I got it wrong first time out! A proud man says I tried and if there were a God he would have met me 1/2 despite what the bible says.
But again Jesus Himself gives us the parable of the wise and foolish builders so we know what to expect concerning our faith.
which core? there are supposedly over 30K versions of Christianity.. which one was the right one...that didn't yield God???
I mean to me the right version would have you in communication with God. but to you the right version is the one that allows you to leave...
Riddle me this, is truth a concern at all to you?
[mod]
If you are just going to preach and try to "save" us, I'm going to kindly ask you to fuck off. We have a few rules, that I'd like you to read before making any more posts. Any more violations will result in a ban.
Thank you for your cooperation.[/mod] The rules of the forum. (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5589.0)
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder34/500x/48705034/mc-hammer-error-stopits-hammer-time.jpg)
Correction:
I won't be banning, nor will another mod, unless he is spamming his preach, which as of now, hasn't happened yet.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:41:12 PM
I am here to answer any bible related question
I didn't have any paleo-Hebrew class in elementary school and there aren't many paleo-Hebrew manuscripts sitting around for us to read, so I assume you mean an English translation. Which English version of the Bible are you referring to?
I suppose the first question should be how many errors, contradictions, or lies do you think are in the Bible? of course we know that every English version has translation errors...
Quote from: fencerider on June 17, 2017, 02:58:06 PM
I didn't have any paleo-Hebrew class in elementary school and there aren't many paleo-Hebrew manuscripts sitting around for us to read, so I assume you mean an English translation. Which English version of the Bible are you referring to?
I suppose the first question should be how many errors, contradictions, or lies do you think are in the Bible? of course we know that every English version has translation errors...
The Hebrew-Aramaic version, the original, as vowel pointed by the Masortes in around 950 CE ... has errors too. The most original (Dead Sea scrolls versions of individual books in Hebrew, often just fragments) don't have vowels fully indicated (neither did the earliest Quran). For much of the Christian world, the original OT bible is the Septuagint, but that is itself a translation. Other early translations of the OT include several versions in Aramaic.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/what-is-the-oldest-hebrew-bible/
Quote from: Baruch on June 17, 2017, 03:11:40 PM
The Hebrew-Aramaic version, the original, as vowel pointed by the Masortes in around 950 CE ... has errors too. The most original (Dead Sea scrolls versions of individual books in Hebrew, often just fragments) don't have vowels fully indicated (neither did the earliest Quran). For much of the Christian world, the original OT bible is the Septuagint, but that is itself a translation. Other early translations of the OT include several versions in Aramaic.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/what-is-the-oldest-hebrew-bible/
But then english is quite scrabble when read in a mirror.
exactly my point Baruch. for all we know you could have wrote the Bible, then travelled back in time to dump it off somewhere. Not to mention Christian theologists willingly point out that Moses didn't write Genesis until more than 3,000 years after creation. (3,000 years is a long time to keep fabrications and exaggerations out of an oral tradition)
Quote from: fencerider on June 17, 2017, 04:16:00 PM
exactly my point Baruch. for all we know you could have wrote the Bible, then travelled back in time to dump it off somewhere. Not to mention Christian theologists willingly point out that Moses didn't write Genesis until more than 3,000 years after creation. (3,000 years is a long time to keep fabrications and exaggerations out of an oral tradition)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OB4zq9_qpcU/Uvm4Zc8cjWI/AAAAAAAAAjA/cc91qKpvsrk/s1600/magic+god+darkmatter2525,+smaller+-compressed.png)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
Riddle me this, is truth a concern at all to you?
Truth is a concern to me, and it doesn't come from the superstitious writings of primitive nomadic people living 2000+ years ago. While your kind were wasting food and sacrificing sons to a deity whose existence couldn't and cannot now be proven, other people were exploring geometry, measuring the size of the Earth, and writing books of facts, not fiction.
But you are a believer convinced of your own facts. So, lets see some facts.
1. Prove Jesus actually existed.
2. Prove Masada actually happened.
3. Prove the Flood.
4. Adam and Eve had 3 sons. Where did their wives come from?
5. If the Universe CAN occur naturally (and it can), why is a deity required for it?
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 17, 2017, 05:08:10 PM
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OB4zq9_qpcU/Uvm4Zc8cjWI/AAAAAAAAAjA/cc91qKpvsrk/s1600/magic+god+darkmatter2525,+smaller+-compressed.png)
Yes, G-d is Jewish ... see the fancy yarmulka? ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on June 18, 2017, 03:36:36 AM
Truth is a concern to me, and it doesn't come from the superstitious writings of primitive nomadic people living 2000+ years ago. While your kind were wasting food and sacrificing sons to a deity whose existence couldn't and cannot now be proven, other people were exploring geometry, measuring the size of the Earth, and writing books of facts, not fiction.
But you are a believer convinced of your own facts. So, lets see some facts.
1. Prove Jesus actually existed.
2. Prove Masada actually happened.
3. Prove the Flood.
4. Adam and Eve had 3 sons. Where did their wives come from?
5. If the Universe CAN occur naturally (and it can), why is a deity required for it?
Well Masada clearly exists, though we don't have a VHS videotape or iPhone video of the battle. Do you doubt that Gettysburg happened?
But the others are fictional, including Moses and Jesus. But this Muhammad guy, he was real, and is still in your face 1400 years later.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 16, 2017, 05:04:30 PM
Kid, I know more about the Bible than you do.
That maybe.
QuoteI was as genuine as they came. I did not quit because things got hard. I didn't quit because God didn't grant me special favors in exchange for my works. I left because God was completely absent in my life.
is what I mean when I say God sends the wind and rain to test what you have built.. to test your faith.. to see/show you if your efforts are being supported by God.
Quote
He did not grant relief when I needed it and asked for it. Instead, things just kept getting worse.
I'm sorry to hear that. Know I have been on both ends of that.
Quote
Mathew 7:9:11 - "Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
Even the Bible is proof against God.
If you are a bible geneus you'd know that is a cherry pick line hack out of the bible to paint an incomplete picture.
lets look at the whole pcture/what it is you are supposed to be asking for:
5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the
Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.â€Did you see that last bit? you are supposed to have been asking for the Holy Spirit, not whatever crap it is you were looking for. Even so God did answer your 'ask prayer' as if you were looking for the Holy Spirit, in that he destroyed your picture of the false God you had modeled from the bible. That way you would have an oppertunity to build a correct pic with the Holy Spirit.
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And if you weren't so blinded by your faith, you would be able to see that. You might start to wonder why God, who is omniscient and supposedly hears all of your prayers, will not speak when spoken to, and why he'd rather communicate through silence and make it impossible to know whether it's him or your imagination.
I didn't have this problem... in fact many of the people I know have has some sort of connection or contact with God. That is the only reason most of them including myself are on this side of the fence. we have all seen and heard/experience far too much to be told God is silent. Maybe for you maybe in name it and claim it land... but if your actually into the bible, and did not build a pic og God based on Aladdin's lamp then things maybe alittle different.
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You might wonder why the only evidence that God gives of his existence is a collection of historically inaccurate books, which are so obscure that millions of people argue about what they even mean.
I will share some of my experiences in up and comming posts. All I can say for the mment is God is not silent... Or rather the God of the bible is not silent.. Your God maybe, but as we are told gods built on sand often are.
Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2017, 06:01:26 PM
Dirch ... do you live like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Living_Biblically
I gave you two likes, for part of two posts you made ... I expect to be crucified for it ;-( ... this is a rough crowd you have come to, like the Cantina at Mos Eisley.
No I am not a legalist..
And good thing I brought my blaster... though if you think about it luke, the droids, han and obi wan were the instigators in all the cantina's shenanigans.
Quote from: Baruch on June 16, 2017, 11:15:04 PM
As long as you leave my "peter" alone, I am good with that. Gravity boots.
For DRich - here is some education for you ... the howlers/mistranslations in Christian and Jewish Bibles ... as corrected in the Aramaic
http://www.aramaicbibleperspectives.com/uploads/Aramaic_Bible_Institute_Dictionary_1-20-13.pdf
Unfortunately most people's access to scripture is thru translations, filtered thru the accidental distortions of translators and deliberate distortions of theologians.
Sooo.... Koine Greek (semi dead language) to modern english translations are wrong... but Koine greek to Aramaic (completely dead language) to Modern english... those are right... Yeah..
You get Aramaic while spoken was a dialect it was not an official language right? didn't have an official text, which is why EVERYTHING in that period was written in the official empirical standard language and not in 100 regional dialects??
That to have text in Aramaic is to have a letter written in creol or enjun in english?
Quote from: fencerider on June 17, 2017, 02:58:06 PM
I didn't have any paleo-Hebrew class in elementary school and there aren't many paleo-Hebrew manuscripts sitting around for us to read, so I assume you mean an English translation. Which English version of the Bible are you referring to?
I suppose the first question should be how many errors, contradictions, or lies do you think are in the Bible? of course we know that every English version has translation errors...
I'm open to consider any you may think you have found, but I have yet found one I haven't been able to resolve with a correct reading.
Quote from: Baruch on June 17, 2017, 03:11:40 PM
The Hebrew-Aramaic version, the original, as vowel pointed by the Masortes in around 950 CE ... has errors too. The most original (Dead Sea scrolls versions of individual books in Hebrew, often just fragments) don't have vowels fully indicated (neither did the earliest Quran). For much of the Christian world, the original OT bible is the Septuagint, but that is itself a translation. Other early translations of the OT include several versions in Aramaic.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/what-is-the-oldest-hebrew-bible/
scratch what I said earlier, I get what you are saying now in that the OT version found in Aramaic are indeed older that what was found in the koine greek. whether all of those passages are more authentic or reliable are yet to be seen.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 18, 2017, 03:36:36 AM
Truth is a concern to me, and it doesn't come from the superstitious writings of primitive nomadic people living 2000+ years ago. While your kind were wasting food and sacrificing sons to a deity whose existence couldn't and cannot now be proven, other people were exploring geometry, measuring the size of the Earth, and writing books of facts, not fiction.
But you are a believer convinced of your own facts. So, lets see some facts.
1. Prove Jesus actually existed.
There are more manuscripts written on Christ than any other historical figure of that time period. To question the authenctity of Christ is to call in to question if there was ever a julius ceasar as again more is recorded about Christ!
Quote
2. Prove Masada actually happened.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/masada-desert-fortress
Josephus seems to be on board.
Quote
3. Prove the Flood.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533
Quote
4. Adam and Eve had 3 sons.
the bible said they eventually had more sons and daughters.
QuoteWhere did their wives come from?
From the monkey people who evolved outside the garden while Adam and eve were safe inside apart from all of the rest of creation.
Quote
5. If the Universe CAN occur naturally (and it can), why is a deity required for it?
and if it can't?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 03:17:15 PMis what I mean when I say God sends the wind and rain to test what you have built.. to test your faith.. to see/show you if your efforts are being supported by God.
Yes. That is what people kept telling me, and it's what I believed myself. So then God is too incompetent to know when I am being pushed to far, to know when "testing" will only be counterproductive, and giving relief would prevent one of his own from falling away.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 03:17:15 PMIf you are a bible geneus you'd know that is a cherry pick line hack out of the bible to paint an incomplete picture.
lets look at the whole pcture/what it is you are supposed to be asking for:
5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.â€
Did you see that last bit? you are supposed to have been asking for the Holy Spirit, not whatever crap it is you were looking for. Even so God did answer your 'ask prayer' as if you were looking for the Holy Spirit, in that he destroyed your picture of the false God you had modeled from the bible. That way you would have an oppertunity to build a correct pic with the Holy Spirit.
Now look who's cherrypicking. What one paragraph says is inconvenient for you, so you pick out another verse and ignore what the other one says. Read the verses I quoted again. It says that a good father will provide for his son. He will provide food, not stones which do not help, or snakes that hurt you. He gives "good gifts" to those who ask for it. The author was not limiting these requests to the Holy Spirit. In fact, you've demonstrated that you do not even understand your own quote well. In my quote, the author says that God is not a bad father. He provides what his children need when they ask for it. Your quote says that God is not a bad neighbor, who will only grant your request after you've irritated him to the point of exhaustion. There is no inconvenient time to ask him. He will grant your request the first time you ask. Yet in my experience, I asked repeatedly for God to give me the relief that I needed, and he continued to ignore me, proving he is worse than the neighbor and the father in both quotes. He is not a "Heavenly Father" of infinite love. And by the way, I did ask for the Holy Spirit, but apparently it didn't work if he didn't provide me with the wisdom of the Bible he gave to you.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 03:17:15 PMI didn't have this problem... in fact many of the people I know have has some sort of connection or contact with God. That is the only reason most of them including myself are on this side of the fence. we have all seen and heard/experience far too much to be told God is silent. Maybe for you maybe in name it and claim it land... but if your actually into the bible, and did not build a pic og God based on Aladdin's lamp then things maybe alittle different.
Once again, you set a strawman for yourself to push over. Never once did I claim that God was like a genie in a lamp, ready to grant whatever crazy requests I made. I asked for my basic needs, and he responded with silence. But getting back on topic, are you claiming that God has spoken to you in an audible voice, not through silence?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 03:17:15 PMI will share some of my experiences in up and comming posts. All I can say for the mment is God is not silent... Or rather the God of the bible is not silent.. Your God maybe, but as we are told gods built on sand often are.
Stop doing that. My God was not "built on sand." My God was a Biblically accurate God, similar to yours. Stop building these strawmen to dismiss what I have to say. Also, I find it quite telling that you choose to ignore the entire point of the quote you made. In the same paragraph, you say that God is not silent, then admit that he is, and that he uses the Bible to communicate. And what was the problem with God choosing to communicate through the Bible that I pointed out? It's historically inaccurate. So God, with his infinite power and wisdom, who could easily just speak when spoken to without any trouble, chooses instead to communicate with us exclusively through a flawed and vague collection of books. Actually, even that's putting it too lightly. It's a flawed translation/transliteration of a flawed collection of old books. And you see no problems with that?
EDIT: And one last point. Last I checked, the pages in the Bible are still silent. The Bible does not flap its covers and speak.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2017, 04:02:48 PM
Yes. That is what people kept telling me, and it's what I believed myself. So then God is too incompetent to know when I am being pushed to far, to know when "testing" will only be counterproductive, and giving relief would prevent one of his own from falling away.
...And what was the prodigal son all about? was it about a dad so determined to love his little snow flake so much he hugged and kissed him till he stayed home, or did the old man cut the little a-hole a check and let him leave?
You staying was never part of the plan ever dude. it's all been spelled out in these parables you know so well but don't know at all.
Your atheism like mine was an answer to a prayer
Quote
Now look who's cherrypicking.
read the whole chapter bruh... 1-5 or whatever is the lord's prayer everything after that has to do with Jesus Healing a demon.. so how is that cherry picking if the context of the stroy before and the story after do not support the text?
That was why you were called out on cherry picking. you stopped at "what father would give a scorpion if he was asked for an egg, so how much more would your father in heaven ask of you if.... (that is what you left out!) IF you Ask for the Holy Spirit. That is the secret to all of this! If you ask for the Holy Spirit GOD HIMSELF With you Proofs all of this for you!
one more time IF you A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11 God the Father will send God the Holy Spirit This can be a physical one on one thing. IT WAS FOR ME! (Ill post a different thread on that mods willing)
That is how I know all of the bible is true, because in it you are allowed to test God. If you simply do what the bible asks God... Shows up.
Quote
What one paragraph says is inconvenient for you, so you pick out another verse and ignore what the other one says. Read the verses I quoted again. It says that a good father will provide for his son. He will provide food, not stones which do not help, or snakes that hurt you. He gives "good gifts" to those who ask for it.
"Good gifts"=Holy Spirit. Why? because none other than God are 'good.' I could go on and preach why all and list a whole bunch of scripture, Jesus referenced about people not being Good, how the things of this world will varnish and or rust away, but what is ever lasting and Good is only God.
Quote
The author was not limiting these requests to the Holy Spirit.
Jesus when he spoke the same message in luke 11 spelled out exactly what he means. or do you suggest he used the same run up and format to describe something else completely?
Quote
In fact, you've demonstrated that you do not even understand your own quote well. In my quote, the author says that God is not a bad father. He provides what his children need when they ask for it. Your quote says that God is not a bad neighbor, who will only grant your request after you've irritated him to the point of exhaustion.
look sport it is the same exact message. the only difference is that Jesus tells us what "the good gift is"
11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.â€
Everything is word for word the only difference is Jesus Himself deciphers this 'good gift' so a-holes can't argue what he meant.
Quote
There is no inconvenient time to ask him. He will grant your request the first time you ask. Yet in my experience, I asked repeatedly for God to give me the relief that I needed, and he continued to ignore me, proving he is worse than the neighbor and the father in both quotes. He is not a "Heavenly Father" of infinite love. And by the way, I did ask for the Holy Spirit, but apparently it didn't work if he didn't provide me with the wisdom of the Bible he gave to you.
and again how do you know Atheism is simply not apart of your journey to getting what you asked for? What if that first step was to show you, in all your biblical 'genus' (your word not mine) you had it all wrong and the only way you would fully accept that is to allow your version of God to fill your needs so that in the end you would seek the God outlined in scripture?
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Once again, you set a strawman for yourself to push over. Never once did I claim that God was like a genie in a lamp, ready to grant whatever crazy requests I made.
wait a tick... didn't you just say you asked God for a bla bla bla and didn't get it so you left... It's that what you do when the genie stops granting wishes? you leave? so what would you do if he gave you a woman to help 'aliviate' your situation? would you have then stayed and continue to worship your version of God till he stops granting wishes??? so tell me again how this was a strawman arguement? God grants wishes yu stay, God stops granting wishes you leave.. that's how genie's and magic lamps work no???
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I asked for my basic needs, and he responded with silence. But getting back on topic, are you claiming that God has spoken to you in an audible voice, not through silence?
He sent a literal messenger.. will post tomorrow about it mods willing.
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Stop doing that. My God was not "built on sand."
Dude seriously if he weren't you would not be here. God does give us all we need and if that is with an audience with Him then that is what we get. we just need to do what He says first. look at thomas needed to stick his hand in his side. did Jesus throw him away because he lost faith? no he let him put his poop crusted hand in his open wound (they didnt have TP back then) Paul was so zeolus for Jesus He had to be blinded to be stopped and rather than Jesus throw Him away he sat and spoke with Him turn Him around and sent Him on His way. the same is true for the rest of us. I am no one special. I've done nothing deserving of any of this, but because I needed and wanted the truth above all else God showed it to me.
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My God was a Biblically accurate God, similar to yours.
my God was just short of blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.. you don't want to know what or how I worshiped before. After I truly sought God I let God be who God was. meaning he killed philistine babies then good! or if he send a bear to maul some little bastards awesome! I'm more of a darth vader fan than a new jedi girl hero any friggen way. Then over time I could see connections between why or How God did something in the NT that did not jive with the old and it made since because I did not try and make excuses for anything God did. Then a whole new wrld of understanding opened up for me.
Quote
Stop building these strawmen to dismiss what I have to say. Also, I find it quite telling that you choose to ignore the entire point of the quote you made. In the same paragraph, you say that God is not silent, then admit that he is, and that he uses the Bible to communicate.
Just not allowed to preach sport read the rules If I start off with God told me this and God told me that I'd be out of here. but if someone asks I can talk about how God works with in the frame work of your question. Not my rules but I will try and work with them.
We need the bible to decern who it is that is speaking with us. because once you cross a spiritual line you will quickly find God/HS is not the only thing out there leaving messages. or giving you information. The bible is you only hope in discerning truth. Again it all circles back to truth and a strong desire to know it absolutely. It is so easy for the other ones to take a 1/2 truth and send you off 1/2 cocked in to a crowd of people with a bomb strapped to your behind. Or do you really think they are just so religious they don't know how to think for themselves any more? Some maybe but most they've seen and felt what I have, but the herion/crack version of God's love rather than the real thing. I'll leave it at that till I get another question. (don't want preach/scare/offend anyone out of complacency in their theologies)
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And what was the problem with God choosing to communicate through the Bible that I pointed out?
Nothing if you read it with a thirst for truth. However if you are going to read it with a slant. Like you telling me what a good gift was even after Jesus in an exact same set up in luke 11 tells us himself what the good gift your are supposed to be asking for is!!! I mean come ne word for word for 2 verses and instead of the ambiguous "good gift" he says Holy Spirit. A truth seeker has to default to Holy Spirit.. Why? Because did you get your good gift? now ask me if I got the Holy Spirit?
QuoteIt's historically inaccurate.
History is historically inaccurate, so what specifically sets the bible apart?
QuoteSo God, with his infinite power and wisdom, who could easily just speak when spoken to without any trouble, chooses instead to communicate with us exclusively through a flawed and vague collection of books.
well yeah! look how stupid we are in religion. God clearly tell us not to make any graven images and do not worship idols even of Him!!! look at the "Artwork" in the church. Look at the shroud that supposedly entombed Christ's body, look at the bones of certain apstoles and how they are dunked in water for people to drink... look at all the crazy B/S we do in the sake or name of 'religion.' Now imagine if we had an actual perfect relique of God. Tell me that you don't think we as a people would worship that book as God... People do that now with some translations!!
The bible is nothing more than a tool to find God. if you seek truth if you seek perfection if you seek everything the bible is not supposed to be but God is then seek God first, don't seek to worship a stupid book. That said remember that book is the key to descern who God is and who is not.
QuoteActually, even that's putting it too lightly. It's a flawed translation/transliteration of a flawed collection of old books. And you see no problems with that?
because un like you I do not seek nor ever sought to worship a book. the book is just a gps to God. All it need do is get me close.
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EDIT: And one last point. Last I checked, the pages in the Bible are still silent. The Bible does not flap its covers and speak.
nor was it supposed to.. if it were then we would be directed to worship the book instead of God directly like the jews were.
Okay, Drich, here is a bit of a contradiction:
Every Decalogue you see â€" from the 5,000-pound granite behemoth inside the Alabama State Judicial Building to the little wallet-cards sold at Christian bookstores â€" is bogus. Simply reading the Bible will prove this. Getting out your King James version, turn to Exodus 20:2-17. You’ll see the familiar list of rules about having no other gods, honoring your parents, not killing or coveting,
and so on. At this point, though, Moses is just repeating to the people what God told him on Mount Si’nai. These are not written down in any form.
Later, Moses goes back to the Mount, where God gives him two “tables of stone†with rules written on them (Exodus 31:18). But when Moses comes down the mountain lugging his load, he sees the people worshipping a statue of a calf, causing him to throw a tantrum and smash the tablets on the ground (Exodus 32:19).
In neither of these cases does the Bible refer to “commandments.†In the first instance, they are “words†which “God spake,†while the tablets contain “testimony.†It is only when Moses goes back for new tablets that we see the phrase “ten commandments†(Exodus 34:28). In an interesting turn of events, the commandments on these tablets are significantly different than the ten rules Moses recited for the people, meaning that either Moses’ memory is faulty or God changed his mind.
I. Thou shalt worship no other god.
II. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
III. The feast of unleavened bread thou shalt keep.
IV. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
V. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest,
and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
VI. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God.
VII. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
VIII. Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
IX. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
X. Thou shalt not seethe a kid [ie, a young goat] in his mother’s milk.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2017, 05:34:25 PM
Okay, Drich, here is a bit of a contradiction:
Every Decalogue you see â€" from the 5,000-pound granite behemoth inside the Alabama State Judicial Building to the little wallet-cards sold at Christian bookstores â€" is bogus. Simply reading the Bible will prove this. Getting out your King James version, turn to Exodus 20:2-17. You’ll see the familiar list of rules about having no other gods, honoring your parents, not killing or coveting,
and so on. At this point, though, Moses is just repeating to the people what God told him on Mount Si’nai. These are not written down in any form.
Later, Moses goes back to the Mount, where God gives him two “tables of stone†with rules written on them (Exodus 31:18). But when Moses comes down the mountain lugging his load, he sees the people worshipping a statue of a calf, causing him to throw a tantrum and smash the tablets on the ground (Exodus 32:19).
In neither of these cases does the Bible refer to “commandments.†In the first instance, they are “words†which “God spake,†while the tablets contain “testimony.†It is only when Moses goes back for new tablets that we see the phrase “ten commandments†(Exodus 34:28). In an interesting turn of events, the commandments on these tablets are significantly different than the ten rules Moses recited for the people, meaning that either Moses’ memory is faulty or God changed his mind.
I. Thou shalt worship no other god.
II. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
III. The feast of unleavened bread thou shalt keep.
IV. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
V. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest,
and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
VI. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God.
VII. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
VIII. Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
IX. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
X. Thou shalt not seethe a kid [ie, a young goat] in his mother’s milk.
Come one guys... it's like you guys to an atheist version of ross and you pick up last month arguement and pass them off as your own. Since I know you did not write this one I'm going to give you the cliff notes answer and see if you can chew on that...
turn to Exo 20 actually start on the back 1/2 of 19.
So moses goes up the mountain to get direction from God and the people want to see God too. so a few brave ones start to hassle moses and God starts giving commands to moses but the a-holes wont let them be.
So moses was to go get arron and tell the people the will die if they try and seek up to see God. So moses leaves and tells everyone.. must of got like alot of disrespect, because next thing chapter 20 God pipes up himself and lays down the 10 commandments... If God lays down 10 rules they are friggen commandments even if he does not call them that. that is why they are engraved everywhere.
So now the people (3 million or so) are like pooping their robes they are all scared to death, which is a problem because like no laundry mats and no ross'. So moses stays clams the people down, and later goes back for that second list. Now rather than God simply give his commandment which are apart of that list he tells the people what will happen if they obey and disobey... Do you get the difference? you've got the original commandment list and then you have a set of promises and conditions. That my friend is called a covenant. You keep my commands and this is what you will get. ou do abc I give 123... So the secondlist is a list of commandments and his covenant with moses and his people.
So now because we the US are not OT jews but NT Christians we do not live under that covenant, we live under the covenant of Christ, yet the commandments stand. which is why we have the first list and not the second
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2017, 05:34:25 PM
Okay, Drich, here is a bit of a contradiction:
Every Decalogue you see â€" from the 5,000-pound granite behemoth inside the Alabama State Judicial Building to the little wallet-cards sold at Christian bookstores â€" is bogus. Simply reading the Bible will prove this. Getting out your King James version, turn to Exodus 20:2-17. You’ll see the familiar list of rules about having no other gods, honoring your parents, not killing or coveting,
and so on. At this point, though, Moses is just repeating to the people what God told him on Mount Si’nai. These are not written down in any form.
Later, Moses goes back to the Mount, where God gives him two “tables of stone†with rules written on them (Exodus 31:18). But when Moses comes down the mountain lugging his load, he sees the people worshipping a statue of a calf, causing him to throw a tantrum and smash the tablets on the ground (Exodus 32:19).
In neither of these cases does the Bible refer to “commandments.†In the first instance, they are “words†which “God spake,†while the tablets contain “testimony.†It is only when Moses goes back for new tablets that we see the phrase “ten commandments†(Exodus 34:28). In an interesting turn of events, the commandments on these tablets are significantly different than the ten rules Moses recited for the people, meaning that either Moses’ memory is faulty or God changed his mind.
I. Thou shalt worship no other god.
II. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
III. The feast of unleavened bread thou shalt keep.
IV. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
V. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest,
and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
VI. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God.
VII. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
VIII. Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
IX. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
X. Thou shalt not seethe a kid [ie, a young goat] in his mother’s milk.
Christians and Muslims are Jewish wanna-bees.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 03:20:59 PM
No I am not a legalist..
And good thing I brought my blaster... though if you think about it luke, the droids, han and obi wan were the instigators in all the cantina's shenanigans.
Yes, Christians are antinomian ... hence going to Hell for eternity, because they are criminals with a get out of jail free card. As are Muslims (Allah made me do it).
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 03:27:21 PM
Sooo.... Koine Greek (semi dead language) to modern english translations are wrong... but Koine greek to Aramaic (completely dead language) to Modern english... those are right... Yeah..
You get Aramaic while spoken was a dialect it was not an official language right? didn't have an official text, which is why EVERYTHING in that period was written in the official empirical standard language and not in 100 regional dialects??
That to have text in Aramaic is to have a letter written in creol or enjun in english?
Goyim do not understand Jewish thinking ... they can't. Just as men can't understand women (or vice versa). You have to be one to think like/understand one. Jews who abandon Jewish thinking ... can't either ... they are Jewish Goyim (aka worse than Goyim). The NT isn't Koine ... that is a pagan view by pagans who have misappropriated Hellenistic Jewish literature for their own nefarious purposes post 135 CE ... it is Judeo-Greek/Yavanic ... as is the Septuagint. There have been very few genuine Messianic Jews since 135 CE of any kind ... most of the Hellenistic Jewish Messianics were wiped out in 115-117 CE. Most of the Church Fathers (who are the precursors and creators of Catholicism) are rootless followers of Paul ... like a Chinese guy pretending to be Native American because he attended a pow-wow once.
Just as Ladino is Judeo-Spanish not Spanish and Yiddish is Judeo-German. A Gentile German can't understand Yiddish, and Spaniard can't understand Ladino. It is like asking the Pope to understand marriage, he can't without having been married himself! Only a small part of the Tanakh (OT) is in Aramaic ... but that is what a plausible Jesus would have spoken, not Greek, not Hebrew. Paul ... he would have Yavanic as his first language (being a Roman citizen in the East), and Aramaic and Hebrew as second languages he got from the Semitic locals and Yeshiva. He is a plausible historical character, in a way that Jesus isn't. A really great and tragic rabbi (who wanted coexistence until G-d came and destroyed the world, any day now). But I don't think he would approve of what Gentiles did to his new religion (one small branch of a larger Messianic Judaism that allowed Gentiles as full members without conversion to Judaism) that he invented.
There were many kinds of Jewish Messianics, mostly non-Hellenistic ... who were wiped out in the Jewish-Roman wars of 66-74 CE and 132-145 CE. As I pointed out above, the Hellenistic Jewish agitators were wiped out on their own in 115-117 CE. Most of the surviving Pauline Christians were Gentiles who couldn't spell Bar Mitzvah if they tried.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 06:26:39 PM
So now because we the US are not OT jews but NT Christians we do not live under that covenant, we live under the covenant of Christ, yet the commandments stand. which is why we have the first list and not the second
No, I did not write the list. Would you have felt better if I had hand copied that list? The fact remains, there are three places where the '10 commandments' are written. They are not 'listed'--we have to do that ourselves--pick them out and list them by number. So, who gets to chose which of the three 'lists' we call the 10 commandments? Why don't we find the 'listed' list chiseled in stone anywhere?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2017, 08:28:07 PM
No, I did not write the list. Would you have felt better if I had hand copied that list? The fact remains, there are three places where the '10 commandments' are written. They are not 'listed'--we have to do that ourselves--pick them out and list them by number. So, who gets to chose which of the three 'lists' we call the 10 commandments? Why don't we find the 'listed' list chiseled in stone anywhere?
Georgia Guide Stones ;-)
I think that Drew and Drich should team up sometime for a debate against Hakurei Reimu and Sdelsolray
conveniently Drich provided the first contradiction. Mathew 7 vs Luke 11. both are supposed to be a quote of what Jesus said. If two people are quoting the same person the quote should be the exact same words. If it isnt then you know somebody got it wrong. The meaning of Ma 7 is not the same as Lu 11.... lets add John 14:13-14 and John 16:23-24 if you ask anything in my name I will do it .
Just to get DRich up to speed on things that have been discussed here (I don't remember the details of who or when), the following things have been said:
1. The city of Nazareth was a ghost town at the time Jesus was supposed to live.
2. The Roman empire never had a custom to release a prisoner on a Jewish holiday.
3. The Roman empire never ordered any census in which people were required to return to their ancestral home.
there are more but my brain is out of gear
As far as errors in the Bible that you asked me to point out there is the error in Isaiah being translated the Messiah will be born of a virgin (original language says the Messiah will be born to a young woman) I suppose that is a plus for Christians; considering that there are 20-30 god-men that claim to be born of a virgin - Osirus, Horus, Buddah,....
Oh yes the 10 Commandments. all you have to do is read them to know that the lists are different.
Well the fact that there are errors in the Bible doesn't completely negate Christianity, but it does mean that no one can claim the Bible is infallible. I suppose you will have to see it with your own eyes so here are a couple of websites that have some actual lists which someone brought up on the forum. (have learned a lot from them)
http://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#jesusseminar
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 04:02:15 PM
There are more manuscripts written on Christ than any other historical figure of that time period. To question the authenctity of Christ is to call in to question if there was ever a julius ceasar as again more is recorded about Christ!https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/masada-desert-fortress
Josephus seems to be on board.http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533
the bible said they eventually had more sons and daughters.
From the monkey people who evolved outside the garden while Adam and eve were safe inside apart from all of the rest of creation. and if it can't?
1. Prove Jesus actually existed.
"There are more manuscripts written on Christ than any other historical figure of that time period. To question the authenctity of Christ is to call in to question if there was ever a julius ceasar as again more is recorded about Christ!"There are no contemporary writings about Jesus. His existence is not shown in any records outside the bible. Everything about him is written long after his alleged existence. Julius Caesar, on the other hand is well-documented by contemporaries, civil records and even enemies.
2. Prove Masada actually happened.
"https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/masada-desert-fortress
Josephus seems to be on board."Josephus Flavius is known to be a pathological liar. And fictionalist. PBS Frontline http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/masada.html effectively refuted his false description of the event. It never happened.
3. Prove the Flood.
"http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533"Evidence shows that there was an event that connected the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea. It occurred about 5000 BC, way before the historical biblical times. It was a local, not worldwide event. Evidence suggests that local inhabitants would have had to relocate to higher ground frequently, but not have been overwhelmed by flood waters.
The refilling of the Mediterranean Sea has also been suggested as “The Floodâ€, but that was 5.3 million years ago…
Your link does not prove what you think it does.
4. Adam and Eve had 3 sons.
"the bible said they eventually had more sons and daughters."Genesis 5:3,4 Yeah, you got me on that. I must have missed that part. I’ll do you a kindness, though, and not explore the “From the monkey people who evolved outside the garden while Adam and eve were safe inside apart from all of the rest of creation†suggesting they mated with monkeys.
Unless you WANT to explain that part…
5. If the Universe CAN occur naturally (and it can), why is a deity required for it?
"and if it can't?"Then a deity is not required. And if a step in a process isn’t required, then it probably doesn’t exist. Occam’s Razor.
back to the OP. Drich you just said that god says to test him. Here is a riddle for you. In Malachi the Jews? were irritating god because they hadn't given their tithe in a long time. He told them that if they bring the tithe that they owe to the temple he would give them a blessing so big they would not be able to handle it. So I got myself in that situation, didnt pay any tithe for around 2 1/2 years. Then I put myself on a payment plan guessing it would take 3 years to catch up. somewhere around 2 years I sat down and did the math to see where I was at and found out I had caught up 4 months earlier and I was actually ahead. That was 4 years ago now and in all that time there hasnt been any kind of blessing, not even a little one. I figure that either it only applies to a Jew and I know I'm not Jewish (based on my last name I can probably trace from my father's father back to the second or third son of the crown of england in the 1500-1600s. or I can trace from my mothers father back to 1800s to a pure blooded native American. nope no Jew blood in me) or maybe there's some falsehood in that book of the Bible
On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 20, 2017, 01:46:00 AM
On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.
Interesting suggestion! There must have been quite an orgy and resulting pregnancy explosion among Adam, Eve and children...
Quote from: fencerider on June 20, 2017, 01:18:42 AM
back to the OP. Drich you just said that god says to test him. Here is a riddle for you. In Malachi the Jews? were irritating god because they hadn't given their tithe in a long time. He told them that if they bring the tithe that they owe to the temple he would give them a blessing so big they would not be able to handle it. So I got myself in that situation, didnt pay any tithe for around 2 1/2 years. Then I put myself on a payment plan guessing it would take 3 years to catch up. somewhere around 2 years I sat down and did the math to see where I was at and found out I had caught up 4 months earlier and I was actually ahead. That was 4 years ago now and in all that time there hasnt been any kind of blessing, not even a little one. I figure that either it only applies to a Jew and I know I'm not Jewish (based on my last name I can probably trace from my father's father back to the second or third son of the crown of england in the 1500-1600s. or I can trace from my mothers father back to 1800s to a pure blooded native American. nope no Jew blood in me) or maybe there's some falsehood in that book of the Bible
Mormons will tell you that many Native Americans are Jewish (lost tribes) ;-)
Cavebear ... there are irregularities in Israeli archeology ... because politics. There has been too much "romantic fantasy" in Biblical Archeology in general, see Finkelstein instead. Yadin was also the equivalent of Sec Rumsfeld. The mass suicide probably didn't happen like Josephus described. He wasn't there then, he was back in Rome trying to save what was left of Hellenistic Judaism ... and he failed. Palestinian Judaism had one more attempt at freedom 65 years later ... and predictably failed too. You are a bit too pro-Roman ;-) So Masada did happen, but not like Josephus described ... in one paragraph. The rest of it matches the archeology. D-Day didn't happen the way that American propaganda says it did, propaganda is useful both in war and after the war. So are Americans professional liars? All historians are liars, not just Jewish ones ... see Herodotus, the first great liar (historian).
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 20, 2017, 01:46:00 AM
On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.
Local post ice-age floods, pretty big in spots, bad for you if you are caught in one. In deserts they have sudden floods along the wadis ... bad if you are stupid enough to camp there!
Quote from: Baruch on June 19, 2017, 07:04:49 PM
Yes, Christians are antinomian ... hence going to Hell for eternity, because they are criminals with a get out of jail free card. As are Muslims (Allah made me do it).
Book chapter and verse where the unsaved goto Hell for eternity. Jesus clearly states that we are sent to Hell to be destroyed by it's flames every time He is prompted/asked.
He does say Hell is eternial, but does not say we are or will be in it. but rather the flames of Hell will consume/burn us up.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2017, 08:28:07 PM
No, I did not write the list. Would you have felt better if I had hand copied that list? The fact remains, there are three places where the '10 commandments' are written. They are not 'listed'--we have to do that ourselves--pick them out and list them by number. So, who gets to chose which of the three 'lists' we call the 10 commandments? Why don't we find the 'listed' list chiseled in stone anywhere?
No again list one was the only list of commandmnts and there were ten.
list two included the comandment, but included bonuses and punishments for disobeying this is not a list of the commandment it is a covenant God made which centered on the commandments. The difference is one is a simple list of rules to promises God made to a specific people to get them to follow those rules. Those rules pertained to no one else other than those people.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 20, 2017, 04:14:55 PM
Book chapter and verse where the unsaved goto Hell for eternity. Jesus clearly states that we are sent to Hell to be destroyed by it's flames every time He is prompted/asked.
He does say Hell is eternial, but does not say we are or will be in it. but rather the flames of Hell will consume/burn us up.
Try not to be so damn flammable! Wear asbestos magic underwear, like Mormons ;-)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 20, 2017, 04:18:24 PM
No again list one was the only list of commandmnts and there were ten.
list two included the comandment, but included bonuses and punishments for disobeying this is not a list of the commandment it is a covenant God made which centered on the commandments. The difference is one is a simple list of rules to promises God made to a specific people to get them to follow those rules. Those rules pertained to no one else other than those people.
Really? How do you get to that position???? This is what your fav. dude, Josh McDowell (well, I don't really know if you like the guy--many fundy's do) says about it:
"Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18)."
So, the Law was and is to be abided by all. All the commandments. Pick out whatever list you wish, Jesus did not limit the commandments to 10--no matter how you pick and choose them. All were sacred and to be followed. Don't you believe that, too? If not, why not?
Quote from: fencerider on June 20, 2017, 12:50:49 AM
I think that Drew and Drich should team up sometime for a debate against Hakurei Reimu and Sdelsolray
conveniently Drich provided the first contradiction. Mathew 7 vs Luke 11. both are supposed to be a quote of what Jesus said. If two people are quoting the same person the quote should be the exact same words. If it isnt then you know somebody got it wrong. The meaning of Ma 7 is not the same as Lu 11.... lets add John 14:13-14 and John 16:23-24 if you ask anything in my name I will do it .
Have you ever been a student of a jewish rabbi or a old school jewish teacher.. They start with a simple pretext or concept like ask good things of your father, then they build using story and example till you get what it is they are saying under your own steam.
The way the jews teach is to set the student up for personal revelation. it is more about a method of logic and pattern thinking than empty answers. They want you to know the formula that produces the right answer given any number of variables, rather than hold the right answer out for you, and not understand it Mat's example (because he is a Jew) is to begin with a simple starting point, a simple message that Christ over time developed. You can see this in other things he says about who is "good" and what "good gifts are" that mat records, when you do see those key words, they always point to the Holy Spirit. In otherwords Mat is teaching the formula which is what he happen to see is the major take away from the lesson. In other words for mat it is more important to teach you how to come to the holy Spirit that simply give you the punchline.
Luke however being a gentile like us sought the final answer and not just the formula. Both are provided so we may have the formula and the answer with luke. If we were OT jews Mat's approach would have made more sense.
Quote
Just to get DRich up to speed on things that have been discussed here (I don't remember the details of who or when), the following things have been said:
1. The city of Nazareth was a ghost town at the time Jesus was supposed to live.
proof?
https://www.livescience.com/49941-jesus-home-photos.html
Seems to me if there were indeed first century homes found in the region would indicate a settlement.
Quote
2. The Roman empire never had a custom to release a prisoner on a Jewish holiday.
And if the prisoners were not that of rome? The temple/Jews had their own internal military/police force. These are the men who arrested Christ, and why Christ was taken before Herod and before Pilate so to make an offical arrest. Herod being the figurehead of Jewish power/law and Pilate being the actual roman representative. If you remember with Christ neither one of the leaders wanted anything to do with his death. Then they trot out Barabbas. if the temple had barabas to trot out and ask which would you perfer, then it is the jewish custom of Passover which could have been the catylist for the release which Rome mearly sactioned. Why? because the temple did not have the power to detain or kill people without cause. The key here is the choice between barabbas and Christ. in making the people choose the worst of the two's deeds would be the responsiblty of the one who was not released.
Use to be the temple had ultimate authority over life and death, but since the occupation it was on the word of herod/rome or the governor/rome at the request of the temple
Quote
3. The Roman empire never ordered any census in which people were required to return to their ancestral home.
there are more but my brain is out of gear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
I'm assuming you know that the AD/BC is off by a few years.
Quote
As far as errors in the Bible that you asked me to point out there is the error in Isaiah being translated the Messiah will be born of a virgin (original language says the Messiah will be born to a young woman)
In the hebrew or even in the koine greek the word
young woman denote a girl of age but who has not had her first period yet. If she has not had her period she is not available for sexual intercourse even though 'young women' like this were being sold off by their fathers. (for domestic purposes/head of the house hold in many cases/ cooking cleaning even manage slaves.)
That said.. IF you have a
young woman/ A girl who is not old enough to have had her period and by law was not legally ready for sex by her husband/the only one she is legally able to have sex with... That makes her a VIRGIN!
Not only that if she was claiming to be a "
young woman"/virgin and she was prego, the jews would have simply checked. there was a ceremony to 'check the purity' of a bride to be if ever in doubt, and as her/Mary life was on the line and the fact that she lived with baby in tow means her story checked out literally!!!
Quote
I suppose that is a plus for Christians; considering that there are 20-30 god-men that claim to be born of a virgin - Osirus,
Ra, and Nut were Osirus' parents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris
QuoteHorus,
Isis and Osirus were the parents of horus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
QuoteBuddah,....
The Buddha was born into a family of the kshatriya varna in Lumbini,Nepal in 567 BCE. He was called Siddhartha Gautama in his childhood. His father was king Suddhodana, leader of the Shakya clan in what was the growing state of Kosala, and his mother was queen Maya Devi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Gautama_Buddha
Sorry sport that is 4 out of 4/6 out of 6 fails.. you want to try something else?
QuoteOh yes the 10 Commandments. all you have to do is read them to know that the lists are different.
because one list is a list of commandments and the other list is a COVENANT which contains commandments. Not supposed to be the same sport.
Commandments are universal covenants are directed to indivisuals or a specific people. For instance unles you are an OT jew that covenant does not apply to you.
QuoteWell the fact that there are errors in the Bible doesn't completely negate Christianity, but it does mean that no one can claim the Bible is infallible.
Never claimed the bible was infallible... just that none of the contradiction you seem able to compile are indeed contradictions of any sort. most of what you understand to be contradiction is in fact misinformation. or you simply do not understand the bible is a translated text which you made no allowances for.
Eitherway I can have you straighten out in no time if you like.. The first thing you need do is all the demand for me proofing my text you will ultimatly ask for... demand it first for the crap websites you get these supposed contradiction from in the first place. 90% of you propblem maybe 100% of your specific problems with the bible will go away.
That said I in no way believe the bible is not without error, the bible never ever once claimed that. so as a bible based Christ I can not claim that. however the bs you guys come up with.. all garabage. in 25 years of researching the bible I have yet to find a true contradiction.
Quote
I suppose you will have to see it with your own eyes so here are a couple of websites that have some actual lists which someone brought up on the forum. (have learned a lot from them)
http://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#jesusseminar
https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html
I'm assuming you like everyone else leads with their best stuff. if what you have posted is an example of what is on those websites... I'd delete those bookmarks from your browser sport as they make you look foolish to anyone in the know.
Most of the people here are very Gentile ... they aren't open to yeshiva methods ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on June 20, 2017, 01:04:36 AM
There are no contemporary writings about Jesus.
Well that's BS. The book of luke is by defination a contempory writing of Christ. but because it goes into detail it is brushed off as a religious writting. As is everyother book from the 3rd century on.
Why? a wisman asks..
Because in the 3rd century the church callout to the furthest reaches of the empire and demanded all writing of christ be compiled for review, so that the ultimate end the bible maybe compiled. So all manuscript Religious and otherwise was turned over to the church. where is this stuff now? under the Vatican city under heavy guard and lock and key. yet because the church retains all copies (upon the tens of thousands of manuscripts) none of it counts in the single minded.
QuoteHis existence is not shown in any records outside the bible.
That is not true the quran and the book of moron both speak of Him, and neither are big fans. not to mention you seem to be counting the bible as a singular text. it's not. there are over 25,000 manuscripts that support the bible. not to mention the vatican has over 50K more manuscripts dealing with tradition roles preists skirmishes daily reports ceremony historical recording from the first and second centry on the day to day of CHRISTIAN activity. No Christ no Christianity no 50K manuscripts of early Christianity. And again before the bible was compiled luke is a shinning example of a non partisan independent historical source.
then in the 1st century tactius irecord "christ suffered and died under pilate." as an offical roman record of the event.
Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.†There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.†One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.â€
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,†led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
https://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
Quote
Everything about him is written long after his alleged existence.
that's not true at all. Luke was written with in 10 years.
QuoteJulius Caesar, on the other hand is well-documented by contemporaries, civil records and even enemies.
are you sure???
Manuscript support lies behind these sources. And this is where things get especially interesting. Around 12 manuscripts are essential for determining the wording of Caesar’s account. The oldest manuscript is from the ninth centuryâ€"a full 900 years removed from the actual events. The list extends to manuscripts from the 12th century. Cicero’s speeches have an even older pedigree. They have about 15 manuscripts ranging from AD 400 to 800. Sallust’s account has around 20 manuscripts from the 10th and 11th centuries. Plutarch’s Lives is also mostly divided across six key manuscripts that range from the 10th and 11th centuries. Suetonius’s manuscript is dated AD 820. Classics scholars build much of our understanding of Caesar around these sources, even though their manuscript traditions contain significant gaps of time.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/sources-for-caesar-and-jesus-compared
2. Prove Masada actually happened.
"https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/masada-desert-fortress
Josephus seems to be on board."Quote
Josephus Flavius is known to be a pathological liar. And fictionalist. PBS Frontline http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/masada.html effectively refuted his false description of the event. It never happened.
So let me get this straight... you are attempting to use a tertiary source material (A pbs documentry) to refute primary source material and discredit a primary source? sorry not sorry... yur going to have to do better than that. Basically you have a world renoun and recognized 1st century historian. you are trying to take down with a collect 'nut-huh' from people who don't like what he has to say.
Quote3. Prove the Flood.
"http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533"
Evidence shows that there was an event that connected the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea. It occurred about 5000 BC, way before the historical biblical times. It was a local, not worldwide event.
If that was the know world then it would indeed be a world wide event. Remember the bible at that point is being written to the OT Jew. for the OT jew the whole world was indeed under water.
Quote
Evidence suggests that local inhabitants would have had to relocate to higher ground frequently, but not have been overwhelmed by flood waters.
I saw a documentary that show a sat/map of literally hundreds of potential city sites all on the bottom of the Mediterranean sea. maybe it was on the last link I gave you, but anyway if the Mediterranean bason as described preglacial flood happened it would have been more like the flood depicted in "Evan almighty" where a natural damn held back hundreds if not thousands of years of glacial melt and more or less created the Mediterranean sea. either way you wanted evidence of a world wide flood which fits the parameters of the account of genesis this does fit. It may not fit what russle crowe and hollywood tells you happened, but so what.
QuoteThe refilling of the Mediterranean Sea has also been suggested as “The Floodâ€, but that was 5.3 million years ago…
says... carbon dating the water?
QuoteYour link does not prove what you think it does.
no you are looking for hollywood and I am showing you what to a single person with no other knoweledge of the world he lives in, than what he himself has experienced, could be an end of the world flood.
Quote4. Adam and Eve had 3 sons.
"the bible said they eventually had more sons and daughters."
Genesis 5:3,4 Yeah, you got me on that. I must have missed that part. I’ll do you a kindness, though, and not explore the “From the monkey people who evolved outside the garden while Adam and eve were safe inside apart from all of the rest of creation†suggesting they mated with monkeys.
they didn't mate with monkeys... they mated with evolved homosapeians who developed outside of the garden. Remember Adam was Day three man and was placed in the garden, Day 6 man was a souless being who developed outside the garden/evolved/monkey man
QuoteUnless you WANT to explain that part…
done.
5. If the Universe CAN occur naturally (and it can), why is a deity required for it?
"and if it can't?"Then a deity is not required. And if a step in a process isn’t required, then it probably doesn’t exist. Occam’s Razor.
[/quote]
Then simply show me an example of a naturally occouring universe.
if said phenomena is indeed naturally occurring then why stop at one? isn't that the definition of naturally occurring.. that these things just pop off? if it is a one off then the universe is not naturally occurring it is an anomaly, which means at the very least we do not know what causes it. or to a wiser man if by examining the sum total of it's complete part you can determine the catylist or cause then it would indicate an outside source/somethig outside of the universe created it. which using occam's same razor puts the universe back into the hands of a creator.
What these "historical" arguments don't get is ...
Unless you have a direct relationship with G-d, right here, right now ... you have nothing. Don't rely on clergy or congregations. Don't rely on scripture. Arguing about minutae of scripture, or what did or didn't happen 2000/3000 years ago is masturbation by autistic patients.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PM
Well that's BS. The book of luke is by defination a contempory writing of Christ. but because it goes into detail it is brushed off as a religious writting. As is everyother book from the 3rd century on.
Why? a wisman asks..
Because in the 3rd century the church callout to the furthest reaches of the empire and demanded all writing of christ be compiled for review, so that the ultimate end the bible maybe compiled. So all manuscript Religious and otherwise was turned over to the church. where is this stuff now? under the Vatican city under heavy guard and lock and key. yet because the church retains all copies (upon the tens of thousands of manuscripts) none of it counts in the single minded.
No it isn't, dumbass. The author of Luke is unidentified, and the name was added later. The book dates back to the second century, long after Jesus was dead. And why should I give a shit that the church got together and said that it's good enough for the Bible? Do you care what books Muslims say are trustworthy? No. The simpleminded are idiots such as yourself who use the Bible as evidence for itself and lack the mental capacity to see any problem with that.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMthen in the 1st century tactius irecord "christ suffered and died under pilate." as an offical roman record of the event.
Bullshit. There are no Roman records mentioning Jesus. Show it.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMSuetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Christ isn't a name, you idiot. Christ is a title, and there were many people who claimed that title. Even the name Jesus is conveniently common. Many experts believe that the myths of Jesus were plagiarized from the tales of multiple holy men who came before him. Even virgin birth is something that has been done before in myths.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMFlavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.†There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.†One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.â€
First of all, Josephus was not an unbiased source, neither was he a historian. He was a Christian who wrote what he was taught to believe. He wasn't even born until after Jesus supposedly died, and after the myths of Jesus had plenty of time to grow. Show me ONE person who mentioned Jesus and was actually around to see him.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMJulius Africanus
Born 160AD.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMPliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
Born 61AD.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMThe Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Who's notes are you copying? Because you clearly haven't done your research if you think the Talmud is evidence of Jesus.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMLucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Bolded the important part.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMMara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Hey. You actually found one source from the same century that Jesus lived in. Congratulations. Too bad it took him a minimum of 37 years to finally mention it. Guess how long the life expectancy was of 1st century people. Thirty-five years. It took longer than the average life expectancy for this letter about an unnamed "wise king" to be crucified, leaving plenty of room for the myths of Jesus to grow.
Still think that's a short enough time frame for it to be reliable? Just read the books of the New Testament in the order that they were written. You'll find that the oldest books make little to no mention of miracles. The oldest Gospel, Mark, has no mention of the virgin birth, it ends without Jesus being resurrected, and Jesus was never mentioned to have performed any miracles. And as you continue to read the books in this order, miracles start to appear and grow more and more impressive over time. You can see the evolution of the myth of Jesus before your very eyes, starting as a wise teacher and ending as the incarnation of God himself, who turns water to wine, walks on water, and even revives the dead. This is how myths always grow, and it doesn't take much time at all for it to happen. Your Jesus myth is nothing special.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMThen we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
Great. More religious documents to prove the legitimacy of religious beliefs.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMThere is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Really? This old, tired argument? I can't be bothered to answer such a stupid argument, so here. Educate yourself. This is short and to the point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4G7kEhOq2k
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMthat's not true at all. Luke was written with in 10 years.
Uhh. No. It is estimated to have been written between 80-100AD. Learn to use Google. The oldest books of the New Testament were not the Gospels. They were the letters of Paul. As for the other three Gospels, Mark was the earliest at around 68-73AD, Matthew was written at around 80-85AD, and John is the newest at about 90-110AD. In all of these examples, the disciples were already dead, assuming they existed at all.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 12:46:54 PMSo let me get this straight... you are attempting to use a tertiary source material (A pbs documentry) to refute primary source material and discredit a primary source? sorry not sorry... yur going to have to do better than that. Basically you have a world renoun and recognized 1st century historian. you are trying to take down with a collect 'nut-huh' from people who don't like what he has to say.
I love it when idiots try to talk down to people who are smarter than them.
Quote from: Baruch on June 21, 2017, 12:50:37 PM
What these "historical" arguments don't get is ...
Unless you have a direct relationship with G-d, right here, right now ... you have nothing. Don't rely on clergy or congregations. Don't rely on scripture. Arguing about minutae of scripture, or what did or didn't happen 2000/3000 years ago is masturbation by autistic patients.
Welcome to the conversation...
Yes mordern Christians including myself have real life interaction with God. Depending on strength of relationship via the holy Spirit dictates how often and strong God communicates and what methods He uses.
Quote from: fencerider on June 20, 2017, 01:18:42 AM
back to the OP. Drich you just said that god says to test him. Here is a riddle for you. In Malachi the Jews? were irritating god because they hadn't given their tithe in a long time. He told them that if they bring the tithe that they owe to the temple he would give them a blessing so big they would not be able to handle it. So I got myself in that situation, didnt pay any tithe for around 2 1/2 years. Then I put myself on a payment plan guessing it would take 3 years to catch up. somewhere around 2 years I sat down and did the math to see where I was at and found out I had caught up 4 months earlier and I was actually ahead. That was 4 years ago now and in all that time there hasnt been any kind of blessing, not even a little one. I figure that either it only applies to a Jew and I know I'm not Jewish (based on my last name I can probably trace from my father's father back to the second or third son of the crown of england in the 1500-1600s. or I can trace from my mothers father back to 1800s to a pure blooded native American. nope no Jew blood in me) or maybe there's some falsehood in that book of the Bible
If you know you are not jewish.... then why pay the tithe?
Or rather ask yourself what does God require for the Christian concerning money.
What did he tell the rich young ruler?
"sell everything , give it to the poor and come follow me."
Now this pattern is repeated several times in scripture and we have several examples of people doing this.
So then the question becomes if you own god everything and at best have been giving Him 10%, what exactly are you expecting in return?
And yes I have given god everything several different times, and always got back more than 10x what I gave. even so I don't 'expect' or demand anything from God.
What he has shown me should be enough to fill several lives with unshakable belief. if anything I always feel indebted the more He gives me to be responsible for.
The otherside of the coin.
Who says God isn't looking to open the flood gates for you, but let's say your dingy/boat is too small to receive his full blessing and you would be swept away by the good fortune... kinda like the guy who plays leonard on the big bang did a movie a few years back with that insync guy, where everyone is 25 and their life span/money is counting down on their forearms ("in time" or something stupid like that) Anyway insync comes into 100++ years worth of time (which must be like a billion dollars) then he give leonard his best friend like 10 years and leonard drinks himself to death with like 10+ years still left on his clock... Meaning for leonard being given too much too quickly was the cause of his death. just like you standing infront of the blessing gates of heaven asking God to give you your full blessing standing in a dingy, when perhaps God wants you to bring a containership to fill.
Either way you won't know to you stop counting and open your hands and pockets to any needs God puts in front of you till it is all gone. Now you will need to read your bible to navigate what God puts in front of you and what satan might put infront of you and make it look like it is of God. In essence you are giving away your dingy, and allow God room to make you a captain of a larger vessel. if you are faith to what God gives you He will give you more.
This is what happened to me.
Left high school hating God could not read. by 26 found God and he put me incharge of a company, a flock of followers, which ultimatly lead me down a path to where I have written two pattents and have a very sucessful business, and a full time ministry along with the American dream stuff... None of which is truly mine even though my name is all over the place. as it all belongs to God and if need be is his to take all back at any point..
I usally hate telling people this because God usally takes something as a reminder to not be boastful. but you asked and I want to share what God has done for a nobody/someone who hated him with all my might!
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 20, 2017, 01:46:00 AM
On the topic of the Flood, there's plenty of evidence against it, but here's a few big examples. The Flood allegedly killed everyone on the earth except for Noah and his family. Yet Egypt predated the Flood. Also, entire civilizations seemed to have sprung up immediately after the Flood, according to Biblical narrative. Much too fast for one man and his family to have populated themselves.
Actually there isn't a time line. only that the sons of moses multiplied. then you have the tower of babble which has nothing to do with egypt.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 21, 2017, 12:19:37 AM
Really? How do you get to that position???? This is what your fav. dude, Josh McDowell (well, I don't really know if you like the guy--many fundy's do) says about it:
"Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18)."
So, the Law was and is to be abided by all. All the commandments. Pick out whatever list you wish, Jesus did not limit the commandments to 10--no matter how you pick and choose them. All were sacred and to be followed. Don't you believe that, too? If not, why not?
so what did Jesus say on the cross? I mean his last words? "it is finished.." or in this case "it is accomplished."
So now if it is finished are we now not open for the least little change? better check mat 5 again... Not that the law will disappear as per mat 5, but that the completion of the law take hold. meaning not only does the law automatically persecute, it can now automatically atone... which renders the law (for the save) pointless in determining righteousness before God.
Do you understand be for I go further?
Ill work on it, but posting a a list of unchecked resources for me to answer yet then demand I prove each key stroke is a level of hypocritical thinking I dislike... besides I am not speaking to individuals but to posts.. I answer questions or address specific behavior. and in the very next post all is rest.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 04:21:41 PM
Actually there isn't a time line. only that the sons of moses multiplied. then you have the tower of babble which has nothing to do with egypt.
Some people have put together a complete family tree from Adam and Eve to Jesus, based on information given in the Bible. Going with the assumption that the Bible is the perfect, inerrant Word of God, it is entirely possible to determine around what time Noah's Flood happened. For instance, based on the Bible, we know that the Flood happened when Noah was six-hundred years old. Now, if we keep that information in mind and research ancient middle-eastern societies, it's easy to see how things do not add up.
Even if we assume that God failed to give Noah accurate information when he tasked him with writing his own story, as well as all of the oral traditions passed down up until then, and that the Flood was local and not global, it still doesn't make sense. The Bible says that it rained ceaselessly for 40 days and 40 nights. I find that a big difficult to swallow. But that's not even the most ridiculous part of the story. Many people think that Noah spent 40 days on the Ark, which is ridiculous enough, but that's actually a common misconception, just like the number of Wise Men (unspecified) and the placement of Jesus' nail holes (it was the wrists, not the palms). In actuality, God gathered up all of the animals and shut them in the boat with Noah a full seven days before the rains even started. At the end of the 40 days of rain, the land was nowhere in sight, completely covered by water. At that point, the waters slowly receded, and after 150 days, the Ark rested on the top of a
mountain. This mountain, Ararat, is 12,782 feet high. Seventy-four days later, the waters finally receded enough to show the tops of the mountains. Forty days after that, Noah sent out a raven to check if the water was gone. Seven days after that, he sent out a dove for the same purpose, with no luck. Another seven days later, he sent out the dove again, which collected the olive branch from a tree that miraculously survived being completely submerged by water this entire time. For some reason, Noah waited another seven days and sent the dove out again, but it did not return. Twenty-nine days after that, Noah removed the covering from the Ark and saw that the land was dry. But he STILL DIDN'T LEAVE! He waited another 57 days, and finally left the Ark after God told them to leave.
All in all, Noah, his family, and all of the animals (minus the one dove) spent
378 days on the Ark. That is insane. How could any ration person explain--
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OB4zq9_qpcU/Uvm4Zc8cjWI/AAAAAAAAAjA/cc91qKpvsrk/s1600/magic+god+darkmatter2525,+smaller+-compressed.png)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 04:17:38 PM
Welcome to the conversation...
Yes mordern Christians including myself have real life interaction with God. Depending on strength of relationship via the holy Spirit dictates how often and strong God communicates and what methods He uses.
You don't act like you do ;-) If you have the Holy Spirit, why bother quoting scripture?
So you claim you are channeling? About as likely as I am channeling Dr Strange from his HQ in Nepal.
I have said this before quite a few times. If the babble was true, and meaning it came from the hands/mouth/ass of a god, then it would not be this hard for thumpy to proove his point. But look at the fences and gates he has to stumble over or through to make his "point"...one we have heard merely a hundred times prior with little evidence of us changing our mind to stupidity.
When facts and truth are not evident, the gate opens to all kinds of stupidity.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 21, 2017, 04:27:19 PM
so what did Jesus say on the cross? I mean his last words? "it is finished.." or in this case "it is accomplished."
So now if it is finished are we now not open for the least little change? better check mat 5 again... Not that the law will disappear as per mat 5, but that the completion of the law take hold. meaning not only does the law automatically persecute, it can now automatically atone... which renders the law (for the save) pointless in determining righteousness before God.
Do you understand be for I go further?
I expect nothing better from you. But you are interpreting stuff as you see fit. You are giving meaning to words in the way that suits you. What you don't want to grasp, is that the bible did not drop from heaven straight from god whole and unchangeable. Your bible is a fiction crafted by religious leaders to get to control people with feeble minds so they could become controllers and wealthy. You bible is a fiction--as is your god. You have to jump through so many hoops it is amazing you keep the hoops straight. Your fictional jesus clearly states that the OT is the same as it always was--all the commandments are to be followed. Even the one about seething a kid in its mothers milk. Yet you have your hoops ready to jump through to try to demonstrate that that is not what jesus said. Okay then, facts matter not to you--but then you are a theist so that goes with the territory. You believe what you believe and you don't let any facts keep you from your belief. I've heard all this already. And it still does not make it so.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 21, 2017, 02:48:09 PM
No it isn't, dumbass. The author of Luke is unidentified, and the name was added later.
A rose by anyother name (moron) would smell just the same. Not going to argue the name I am point to content of both luke and acts to identify the writer and the time line from which it was written.
QuoteThe book dates back to the second century, long after Jesus was dead.
oh, yeah? read the first few paragraphs of acts.. So can we agree same guy? so if you were to continue to read you'd see acts was the second book of whomever luke was. and the book follows Paul, as a freeman no long a slave to Theolopius (as luke was a disciple of Paul/The book of luke being Paul's gospel.) So, the book of acts stop around 63AD. just before paul's last trip to Rome and martyrdom. Therefore the book of luke (written while Luke as a slave to theolopius) was written well before the book of acts ended, maybe withn 10 to 20 years of the death of Christ.
QuoteAnd why should I give a shit that the church got together and said that it's good enough for the Bible?
Because what is in the bible will have you sat before God in this life if that is what needs to happen. If you seek the truth above allegence to club. (like religion or atheism.)
QuoteDo you care what books Muslims say are trustworthy?
it completely depends on who I am speaking and where.
QuoteNo. The simpleminded are idiots such as yourself who use the Bible as evidence for itself and lack the mental capacity to see any problem with that.
Here's the thing sport, not everyone is privy to a sheilded or sheltered life not all are kept from (the supernatural) and your right some are simple minded and seek to support tradition and lore on both sides.. However if you seek God on His terms He will give you insite and wisdom to discern what is and is not of God. so that you can navigate not on the supernatural but the bunk of popscience as well. Which is little more than a modern day religion. Same structure same claims just different words for the named gods...
QuoteBullshit. There are no Roman records mentioning Jesus. Show it.
I did sport, are you too ignorant of the web and how google works to take the names I gave you and look them up for yourself?
Tacitus, Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, Flavius Josephus, Julius Africanus, Pliny the Younger (who was a prator, well respected lawyer, and head of the military and senate treasury.) not to do you work for you but here this prator/senator/treasure of the empire while killing Christian observes thier behaviors and even identifies Chirst (a man) being worshiped as God.
http://www.vroma.org/~hwalker/Pliny/Pliny10-096-E.html
oh, and there are several more. but I guess you've closed your mind to anything not consistant to the propaganda you have been fooled into accepting.
There isn't much considering the paper trails celebrities leave today... but again there is more on Christ in that time period than any other human from that period. So to call into question the existance of Christ is to call into question the existance of everyone else who lived then.
There is a reason most atheist have abandoned the "Christ never lived/no outside evidence of Christ arguement." simply stated because there is and there is a lot that has been said about Christ. the only real hold outs are faith based atheists, those who want to believe the anti-christ narritive and do not concern themselves with such things as the truth.
QuoteChrist isn't a name, you idiot. Christ is a title, and there were many people who claimed that title. Even the name Jesus is conveniently common. Many experts believe that the myths of Jesus were plagiarized from the tales of multiple holy men who came before him. Even virgin birth is something that has been done before in myths.
can you provide an example?
Quote
First of all, Josephus was not an unbiased source, neither was he a historian.
He was biased against Christ as He was a jew first. and yes like it or not by his work and the defination of his work he was a historean... you can't just make up wild claims to the contary of what is known about a historical figure. show me some PROOF before you try and dismiss a well know and accepted figure.
Quote
He was a Christian who wrote what he was taught to believe.
Man oh man do you ever get tired of being wrong?
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/josephus-flavius/ clearly the jews even today claim Josephus as one of their own.
Quote
He wasn't even born until after Jesus supposedly died, and after the myths of Jesus had plenty of time to grow. Show me ONE person who mentioned Jesus and was actually around to see him.
Paul who's gospel account was penned out by luke and Mark who recorded Peter's account.
QuoteBorn 160AD.
Born 61AD.
Who's notes are you copying? Because you clearly haven't done your research if you think the Talmud is evidence of Jesus.
Bolded the important part.
????
QuoteHey. You actually found one source from the same century that Jesus lived in. Congratulations. Too bad it took him a minimum of 37 years to finally mention it. Guess how long the life expectancy was of 1st century people. Thirty-five years. It took longer than the average life expectancy for this letter about an unnamed "wise king" to be crucified, leaving plenty of room for the myths of Jesus to grow.
how old was peter when He died how old was paul? how old was john who outlived them all? either it seems like you got your numbers wrong or history does.
QuoteStill think that's a short enough time frame for it to be reliable? Just read the books of the New Testament in the order that they were written. You'll find that the oldest books make little to no mention of miracles. The oldest Gospel, Mark, has no mention of the virgin birth, it ends without Jesus being resurrected, and Jesus was never mentioned to have performed any miracles. And as you continue to read the books in this order, miracles start to appear and grow more and more impressive over time. You can see the evolution of the myth of Jesus before your very eyes, starting as a wise teacher and ending as the incarnation of God himself, who turns water to wine, walks on water, and even revives the dead. This is how myths always grow, and it doesn't take much time at all for it to happen. Your Jesus myth is nothing special.
Just read mark 1. I counted 10 separate miracles in THE FIRST CHAPTER!!! Holy Crap do you even fact check the crap you try and sell? I mean seriously, healing the sick, calling out demons, calling angels to help him, God calling out from the sky this is my son in whom I'm well pleased.. these are not miracles? Your whole line of reasoning failed because you didnt even check to see if the claim made was true.
QuoteGreat. More religious documents to prove the legitimacy of religious beliefs.
Really? This old, tired argument? I can't be bothered to answer such a stupid argument, so here. Educate yourself. This is short and to the point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4G7kEhOq2k
Uhh. No. It is estimated to have been written between 80-100AD. Learn to use Google. The oldest books of the New Testament were not the Gospels. They were the letters of Paul. As for the other three Gospels, Mark was the earliest at around 68-73AD, Matthew was written at around 80-85AD, and John is the newest at about 90-110AD. In all of these examples, the disciples were already dead, assuming they existed at all.
here's the thing sport I get what atheist think about the order of the bible, but I have actually been to the scriptorums and studied under someone the smartest histroeans concerning orginal manuscripts myself saw and weighed the evidence myself. You guys are wrong. because before there were paulianian letters there was the book of acts in progress, which again is superseded by the book of Luke. Fake facts like fake news will not work here sport.. I've been to the primary source observed and approved the vetting process and agree with the net consensus. Now if you can provide real evidence to the contrary I will be happy to entertain it and show you where it or your interpretation of it is wrong.
Or do you really truly think that you as an atheist has the only correct hypothesis concerning the compilation of scripture? The problem is you guys do not check the internal content to see if it jives with your external observations (when a copy of the manuscript is first used or is confirmed to be in existence) alot if not every single time you guys claim authorship there are internal discrepancies that will not allow your time line to work, but who cares about consistency and truth right? so long as your narritive works in the end.
Quote
I love it when idiots try to talk down to people who are smarter than them.
nuff said.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 21, 2017, 05:20:48 PM
Some people have put together a complete family tree from Adam and Eve to Jesus, based on information given in the Bible. Going with the assumption that the Bible is the perfect, inerrant Word of God, it is entirely possible to determine around what time Noah's Flood happened. For instance, based on the Bible, we know that the Flood happened when Noah was six-hundred years old. Now, if we keep that information in mind and research ancient middle-eastern societies, it's easy to see how things do not add up.
Oh my glob...
So lets say for a moment Noah is the one writting his own autobiography now when he says the whole world was flooded past the mountain tops... who's world do you think He is talking about? the world as you know it or maybe just the world as he knew it?
Now ask yourself did that world include egypt? look at where his ship landed compared to egypt... That said there are coastal egyptian cities that were completely lost to the great flood. (google it before you set yourself up)
QuoteEven if we assume that God failed to give Noah accurate information when he tasked him with writing his own story, as well as all of the oral traditions passed down up until then, and that the Flood was local and not global, it still doesn't make sense.
Read the passage again God says He will bring desrtuction of the inhabbitants of this "erets" which we translate as earth land ground nation it could mean any of these things. Global flood in this translation possible, regional flood again possible, but the evidence shows a 1/4 hemisperical flood which would probable include all the lands a man like noah would know and then some.
QuoteThe Bible says that it rained ceaselessly for 40 days and 40 nights.
not just rain sport the ground opened up and water from the deep spewed fourth.
Quote
I find that a big difficult to swallow. But that's not even the most ridiculous part of the story. Many people think that Noah spent 40 days on the Ark, which is ridiculous enough, but that's actually a common misconception, just like the number of Wise Men (unspecified) and the placement of Jesus' nail holes (it was the wrists, not the palms). In actuality, God gathered up all of the animals and shut them in the boat with Noah a full seven days before the rains even started. At the end of the 40 days of rain, the land was nowhere in sight, completely covered by water. At that point, the waters slowly receded, and after 150 days, the Ark rested on the top of a mountain. This mountain, Ararat, is 12,782 feet high. Seventy-four days later, the waters finally receded enough to show the tops of the mountains. Forty days after that, Noah sent out a raven to check if the water was gone. Seven days after that, he sent out a dove for the same purpose, with no luck. Another seven days later, he sent out the dove again, which collected the olive branch from a tree that miraculously survived being completely submerged by water this entire time. For some reason, Noah waited another seven days and sent the dove out again, but it did not return. Twenty-nine days after that, Noah removed the covering from the Ark and saw that the land was dry. But he STILL DIDN'T LEAVE! He waited another 57 days, and finally left the Ark after God told them to leave.
awesome, just remember that bit about the ground water and your golden.
QuoteAll in all, Noah, his family, and all of the animals (minus the one dove) spent 378 days on the Ark. That is insane. How could any ration person explain--
explain what? what did they eat? unicorn, dragon, and mamoth... or if you read the bit in the beginning where God commands noah to stock the ark with every kind of food... maybe they ate that. since animals were appearently off the menu then then it would be pretty easy to fill the stores with tons of grain.
Quote from: Baruch on June 21, 2017, 07:29:42 PM
You don't act like you do ;-) If you have the Holy Spirit, why bother quoting scripture?
So you claim you are channeling? About as likely as I am channeling Dr Strange from his HQ in Nepal.
Bwa, HA HA HA HAHA..
Yeah and Jesus didn't act like the messiah, to the pharrisees (remember he called them fools and blind guides snakes full of poison and all sorts of things... Or did you tear those bits out of your bible?
Do you know why Peter is Peter? because Jesus called him 'little pebble" or unstable ground. Jesus was making fun of peter's instability. He was "Petra" shifting gravel not Petros immovable rock like some tell it.
Here's the thing when one is filled with the Spirit it manifests itself differently. I am no one special, I am a mess most of the time and have problems that would make most of you cry. When the holy Spirit illuminates someone like me, this is what you get. I am and never will be a churchie-mc churcherson. God needs all kinds, not just the stoic.
So just because I am not a hand or a eye, does not make me any less apart of the body. perhaps being a hand or an eye you simply do not know how feet or toes work when kicking the ass of a modern pharisee.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 21, 2017, 10:21:44 PM
I expect nothing better from you. But you are interpreting stuff as you see fit. You are giving meaning to words in the way that suits you. What you don't want to grasp, is that the bible did not drop from heaven straight from god whole and unchangeable. Your bible is a fiction crafted by religious leaders to get to control people with feeble minds so they could become controllers and wealthy.
Bwahahahaha!!! What a douche! you start out by quoting from the scripture about the unchanging nature of the bible and even quoted from Christ so to for us/me to accept OT covenants and traditions.
And when I use the same bible to refute your idea/limited understanding of it, you then tirade off about how the bible is not a legit source!! here the thing sport if you are going to point to the avengers movie to teach me a 'lesson' then you can triade off saying the avengers are not real, when I take the comic books or avengers cannon to correct your bad understanding of the movie. In for a penny in for a pound old sport.
QuoteYou bible is a fiction--as is your god.
indeed
QuoteYou have to jump through so many hoops it is amazing you keep the hoops straight.
actually all i did was take the 'hoops' away from you to show you where you were in error.
Quote
Your fictional jesus clearly states that the OT is the same as it always was--all the commandments are to be followed.
until things were finished, which he proclaimed on the cross. But again, not that the OT went away, it is now complete. In that not only the law of sin were in effect but so to where the laws of atonement. Meaning if you are saved it is ok to be in sin.(not evil but sin)
If we could goto Romans 8 I would show you how that works specifically.
QuoteEven the one about seething a kid in its mothers milk. Yet you have your hoops ready to jump through to try to demonstrate that that is not what jesus said.
actually no if you would notice I didn't cherry pick what jesus said and focus on just the 'everything being the same part.' I accounted for and pointed to the bit where he said till everything was finished as well, then I took you to where he specifically says "it is finished" thus (part two of what he said in your very own scripture selection) the law would be made complete. Then I took the two parts of the law the moral law and the laws governing atoenment for sin and explain how both are in effect (just like Jesus said in YOUR passage) and how now atonement cancels out the moral law. meaning it is not about how 'moral you are that gets you into heaven, it is how perfect Jesus lived his life and whether or not you have him vouching for you. because we are slaves to sin and will always sin no matter what. that is why it is important to know the difference between sin and evil. Sin is forgive all sin. Evil is not. we must drop evil from our hearts and ask God to take the sin. That is how the law is made complete. Now without atonement for your sin the whole moral law works against you and your sin and or evil. So again no pat of the law goes aaway, it is just now both sides of the law are working, not just the laws of morality.
Quote
Okay then, facts matter not to you--but then you are a theist so that goes with the territory. You believe what you believe and you don't let any facts keep you from your belief. I've heard all this already. And it still does not make it so.
glob...
Seriously? do you mr there is no God who has spend a few hundred sundae schools worth of time on the matter, can really and truly know how the law of God or the covenants of God or even something as simple as the gospel of salvation works? seriously? You will preach to me based on what? what some other douche who failed to find God by using his bible has to say?
I got nearly 20 years in the study of this stuff EVERYDAY at least 4 to 6 hours aday and I don't know what i should, but I can honestly say I've got a little more 'stick' time than you do. Not only that book learning I found God right where the bible says He would be, and in doing that I understand what the gospel is, I understand how to reconcile atonement with the OT, I know why Jesus had to die on the cross, I get why the blood Of Christ had to be beaten out of him, I know why He went to the cross and further more understand the paradyme shift from OT Judaism to NT Christianity which you cant seem to reconcile with all the the interwebs behind you. You seem to think that OT judaism and Christianity are the same religion, yet here you are telling me about my religion... So Sorry sport maybe try that crap some place else, because you are not fooling me with your "sundae" school degree.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
No one can be born Christian.
In other words, the natural state of being is that we don't need millennia-old campfire tales and fairy stories to be human. It requires indoctrination.
Quote from: trdsf on June 22, 2017, 03:24:36 PM
In other words, the natural state of being is that we don't need millennia-old campfire tales and fairy stories to be human. It requires indoctrination.
What doesn't require instruction and training?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 03:51:26 PM
What doesn't require instruction and training?
Instincts.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 03:20:19 PM
So Sorry sport maybe try that crap some place else, because you are not fooling me with your "sundae" school degree.
That is exactly what I'd say to you. You are so full of shit it is flowing from you brain to you fingers. You simply want me to think as you do because you think that way--and you must be right. Clearly you are the typical loving christian that your christ wants you to be. Keep your crap and eat it for lunch.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 03:51:26 PM
What doesn't require instruction and training?
According to the Bible, God's laws, which he writes on our hearts (Romans 2:15). Too bad my heart doesn't read Hebrew.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 03:20:19 PM
Bwahahahaha!!! What a douche! you start out by quoting from the scripture about the unchanging nature of the bible and even quoted from Christ so to for us/me to accept OT covenants and traditions.
Not only do you make bold claims without any evidence, but you mock us for not believing your bold claims. Fuck off. Nobody here is going to take you seriously.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 22, 2017, 05:48:26 PM
According to the Bible, God's laws, which he writes on our hearts (Romans 2:15). Too bad my heart doesn't read Hebrew.
That can be corrected ;-)
Drich .. I have day dreams and night dreams too, even vivid ones. But I don't think I am channeling Dr Strange when I do.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 02:19:42 PM
Bwa, HA HA HA HAHA..
Yeah and Jesus didn't act like the messiah, to the pharrisees (remember he called them fools and blind guides snakes full of poison and all sorts of things... Or did you tear those bits out of your bible?
Do you know why Peter is Peter? because Jesus called him 'little pebble" or unstable ground. Jesus was making fun of peter's instability. He was "Petra" shifting gravel not Petros immovable rock like some tell it.
Here's the thing when one is filled with the Spirit it manifests itself differently. I am no one special, I am a mess most of the time and have problems that would make most of you cry. When the holy Spirit illuminates someone like me, this is what you get. I am and never will be a churchie-mc churcherson. God needs all kinds, not just the stoic.
So just because I am not a hand or a eye, does not make me any less apart of the body. perhaps being a hand or an eye you simply do not know how feet or toes work when kicking the ass of a modern pharisee.
So are you making the unjustified assumption that I am legalistic? You don't know me well!
This one is entertaining, for a sanctimonious Mere Assertion Peddlerâ,,¢, until, of course, he isn't.
Prediction: He'll soon run out of material and begin to repeat himself.
He already is repeating himself. Bad argument after bad argument. I wasted many hours on other sites arguing with fools with time on their keyboards. I'm here to discuss things with fellow atheists and those few people with a religious approach who can make a decent discussion in a couple of paragraphs to so particular thought.
So, as I have come to ignore Baruch, I will ignore Drich0150.
I feel honored ... sort of ;-)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 03:51:26 PM
What doesn't require instruction and training?
Being a human being. You have to be
made into a believing entity, either by indoctrination, or by talking yourself into it later in life. There is no such thing as a Christian baby, a Buddhist baby, a Hindu baby any more than there is such a thing as a Democratic or Republican baby. There is no form of god-belief that is innate. I'm of the opinion that a child is born not even agnostic, but just plain indifferent to the idea of a divine force.
Quote from: trdsf on June 23, 2017, 11:28:22 AM
Being a human being. You have to be made into a believing entity, either by indoctrination, or by talking yourself into it later in life. There is no such thing as a Christian baby, a Buddhist baby, a Hindu baby any more than there is such a thing as a Democratic or Republican baby. There is no form of god-belief that is innate. I'm of the opinion that a child is born not even agnostic, but just plain indifferent to the idea of a divine force.
Babies are solipsistic ... they are their own god.
Quote from: Sal1981 on June 22, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Instincts.
So you think higher thought and reasoning naturally develops from instincts? or did you miss the point and answer from a vacuum of topic?
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 22, 2017, 05:48:26 PM
According to the Bible, God's laws, which he writes on our hearts (Romans 2:15). Too bad my heart doesn't read Hebrew.
What are you talking about you even said it is God who "trains us" when he writes on our hearts! That passage means God Himself will install the law or train us in the Law Himself.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 22, 2017, 05:50:19 PM
Not only do you make bold claims without any evidence, but you mock us for not believing your bold claims. Fuck off. Nobody here is going to take you seriously.
I can't use evidence remember you tie my hands behind my back and then claim I don't play by the rules. Well F-you for stacking the deck then claim I'm the one not playing fairly.
I'd love to give you example of what God says in the bible and then tie to life, but that seems to be preaching unles one of you asks me directly for that.
Maybe if you need proof ask and I will gladly tie my 'wild ideas' (that you've heard all before) to proof.
Quote from: Baruch on June 22, 2017, 06:46:39 PM
That can be corrected ;-)
Drich .. I have day dreams and night dreams too, even vivid ones. But I don't think I am channeling Dr Strange when I do.
How will you know unless you open cannonical Dr.Strange material and compare what you saw with what is written.
Stange aside, why would you persume to limit God in any form of communication? Rather than take said revelation and study it. That is what I did in this instance and several others... when I proofed it I took it to others to proof it. then I took it to the masses to see what they could/would do with it.
I guess that is the difference between a servant who has been given an message and a scholar such as yourself. I do not persume no place limits on God. If God want something does I simply try and take care of it.
Quote from: Baruch on June 22, 2017, 06:49:20 PM
So are you making the unjustified assumption that I am legalistic? You don't know me well!
No you said my actions did not reflect the holy Spirit. I simply point out how you were wrong, and I even pointed to Christ who was the first to be baptized into the Holy Spirit and shows you how he treated other (students and teachers of the law)
This in contrast to the stoic ideal of what indewelment of the Holy Spirit 'should' be.
Quote from: sdelsolray on June 22, 2017, 08:10:32 PM
This one is entertaining, for a sanctimonious Mere Assertion Peddlerâ,,¢, until, of course, he isn't.
Prediction: He'll soon run out of material and begin to repeat himself.
lol better check out some of the other AF sites and how long I have been a member there. I can go as long as the admins see fit.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 23, 2017, 03:42:55 AM
He already is repeating himself. Bad argument after bad argument. I wasted many hours on other sites arguing with fools with time on their keyboards. I'm here to discuss things with fellow atheists and those few people with a religious approach who can make a decent discussion in a couple of paragraphs to so particular thought.
So, as I have come to ignore Baruch, I will ignore Drich0150.
do you have an example?
Meaning can you give me a post number where I have repeated something that I was not directly asked to clarify by another member?
Quote from: trdsf on June 23, 2017, 11:28:22 AM
Being a human being. You have to be made into a believing entity, either by indoctrination, or by talking yourself into it later in life.
I was neither. what else you got? I was born a buddhist, got that beaten out of me, then for a while tried to be a christian got that beat out of me then was an atheist and had lots of fun beating up Christians.. Then God decided He had enough and sent me to Hell.
QuoteThere is no such thing as a Christian baby, a Buddhist baby, a Hindu baby any more than there is such a thing as a Democratic or Republican baby. There is no form of god-belief that is innate.
then we are in agreement.
Quote
I'm of the opinion that a child is born not even agnostic, but just plain indifferent to the idea of a divine force.
actually I found children know more of God then practiced apologist do.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 22, 2017, 05:50:19 PM
Not only do you make bold claims without any evidence, but you mock us for not believing your bold claims. Fuck off. Nobody here is going to take you seriously.
Oh yeah weren't you the one who demaded proof of one roman offical who recorded or made record of Christ prooving his existance? didn't I give you three... then the topic suddenly drops and now you've lied and said I have not provided proof when asked...
What's up with that sport?
Is this how you 'loose an argument' you proclaim victory anyway and lie about you opponent? i would like a full retraction an an apology please.
Quote from: trdsf on June 23, 2017, 11:28:22 AM
Being a human being. You have to be made into a believing entity, either by indoctrination, or by talking yourself into it later in life. There is no such thing as a Christian baby, a Buddhist baby, a Hindu baby any more than there is such a thing as a Democratic or Republican baby. There is no form of god-belief that is innate. I'm of the opinion that a child is born not even agnostic, but just plain indifferent to the idea of a divine force.
I believe I can actually remember that early part of my life, where I had no belief in the divine, and didn't even have a related belief about the truth or falsity of the divine. At least, I remember what I think was my first exposure to the god concept. I may have been exposed to it before. It's likely that I must have picked up an inkling along the way, but I don't remember that. I just remember that feeling during what I recall as my first parental instruction on the matter: "Holy cow! This is news to me!" I believed it of course, but then I was only two.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 23, 2017, 02:06:20 PM
So you think higher thought and reasoning naturally develops from instincts? or did you miss the point and answer from a vacuum of topic?
Physical determinists think that reality is one of those fancy falling domino chains ... click, click ... no free will, just impersonal law ... like being in a car in a car crash after you lose control. At that point you are a projectile, same as a falling rock.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 23, 2017, 02:08:37 PM
What are you talking about you even said it is God who "trains us" when he writes on our hearts! That passage means God Himself will install the law or train us in the Law Himself.
There is no law. Don't be legalistic ;-)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 23, 2017, 02:36:19 PM
How will you know unless you open cannonical Dr.Strange material and compare what you saw with what is written.
Stange aside, why would you persume to limit God in any form of communication? Rather than take said revelation and study it. That is what I did in this instance and several others... when I proofed it I took it to others to proof it. then I took it to the masses to see what they could/would do with it.
I guess that is the difference between a servant who has been given an message and a scholar such as yourself. I do not persume no place limits on God. If God want something does I simply try and take care of it.
Any time any ape man thinks he is special, he isn't. Everyone is in the lap of G-d, all the time. Nobody is special.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 23, 2017, 02:45:48 PM
I was neither. what else you got? I was born a buddhist, got that beaten out of me, then for a while tried to be a christian got that beat out of me then was an atheist and had lots of fun beating up Christians.. Then God decided He had enough and sent me to Hell.
then we are in agreement.
actually I found children know more of God then practiced apologist do.
If this web site is Hell, why are you here? Actually it is Sheol, but you don't realize that yet. Hell is Viking cold afterlife for those who don't get annihilated in the Ragnarok defending Valhalla. Hades is not the same as Hell, it isn't even hot. And what about that Dante guy or that Milton guy ... they had visions too, can you channel them?
Quote from: SGOS on June 23, 2017, 05:23:22 PM
I believe I can actually remember that early part of my life, where I had no belief in the divine, and didn't even have a related belief about the truth or falsity of the divine. At least, I remember what I think was my first exposure to the god concept. I may have been exposed to it before. It's likely that I must have picked up an inkling along the way, but I don't remember that. I just remember that feeling during what I recall as my first parental instruction on the matter: "Holy cow! This is news to me!" I believed it of course, but then I was only two.
Smart at two ... then all down hill from there ;-) Hence Jesus' point about children. I didn't have a religious experience until I was nine ... after first communion.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 03:20:19 PMI understand how to reconcile atonement with the OT
, I know why Jesus had to die on the cross,
I get why the blood Of Christ had to be beaten out of him,
I know why He went to the cross
because a REAL god wouldn't need such a fucking crazy ass idea. I mean...jesus christ boy, this is the stupidest idea ever imagined. I mean, I swear you idiots are why they have to have little pictures in restaurant restrooms showing fellow idiots how to wash their hands. What a mop head.
Quote from: Baruch on June 23, 2017, 05:54:34 PM
There is no law. Don't be legalistic ;-)
The law remains for those who have not atoned for their sin.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 23, 2017, 02:06:20 PM
So you think higher thought and reasoning naturally develops from instincts? or did you miss the point and answer from a vacuum of topic?
Nope, I don't think that. You asked what doesn't require training, and I answered instincts. Deal with it.
Quote from: Baruch on June 23, 2017, 05:58:37 PM
If this web site is Hell, why are you here?
not here sport, hell/sheol.
Quote
Actually it is Sheol, but you don't realize that yet.
beat you to it.
Quote
Hell is Viking cold afterlife for those who don't get annihilated in the Ragnarok defending Valhalla.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzgk-L34yjo
So no. the viking 'Hel' and the Christian Hell have the spelling in common and even then.. Some sunday schoolers might point out that both are under ground. So if you want to claim that i will not argue. outside of that two very different places.
google it.
Quote
Hades is not the same as Hell, it isn't even hot. And what about that Dante guy or that Milton guy ... they had visions too, can you channel them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzgk-L34yjo
They/you are wrong again. There is a 'Christian Hell and then there is the bible's version. The bible describes a place apart fro creation a pit or an bbysss the grave/sheol where God casts the unrepentant not to burn for ever but to be punished and destroyed. Hell is forever and it's only prisioner who will be tormented forever will be satan. Hell according to the bible will consume everyone and everything else.. (How long it will take to be consumed I can only speculate that will have to do with how long God tends to punish you for your sin.)
Quote from: aitm on June 23, 2017, 07:47:55 PM
because a REAL god wouldn't need such a fucking crazy ass idea. I mean...jesus christ boy, this is the stupidest idea ever imagined. I mean, I swear you idiots are why they have to have little pictures in restaurant restrooms showing fellow idiots how to wash their hands. What a mop head.
why is it stupid?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:41:12 PM
So as I said in my intro post I am here to answer and bible related question about The God of the bible Heaven Hell and even some religious stuff too. My answers maybe a little different that what most of you are use to hearing but hear me out often times I can provide a perspective that changes how you may look at a given subject completely.
So does anyone have any bible or God related questions?
(http://rationalia.com/z/teafinger.gif)
Quote from: Sal1981 on June 26, 2017, 10:54:01 AM
Nope, I don't think that. You asked what doesn't require training, and I answered instincts. Deal with it.
Then if you do not think that are you incapible of extrapolating a subject matter from a conversation? or does your need to find a loophole superseded you want for a civil discussion?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
why is it stupid?
Blood atonement is stupid. A god wouldn't need that. He could just disappear the problem and it's solved. He could go back in time and correct it. So then he says he's going to sacrifice his own son (because other people are wicked)? Kind of dumb, isn't it? So Jesus is alleged to have had a shitty weekend, but then God wakes him up on Sunday morning and brags to everyone that he made a sacrifice. You call that a sacrifice? Doesn't this sound at all a bit silly to you, or do you really buy this kind of nonsense? OK maybe you do, but you at least must recognize how stupid it sounds.
Quote from: SGOS on June 26, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
Blood atonement is stupid. A god wouldn't need that. He could just disappear the problem and it's solved. He could go back in time and correct it. So then he says he's going to sacrifice his own son (because other people are wicked)? Kind of dumb, isn't it? So Jesus is alleged to have had a shitty weekend, but then God wakes him up on Sunday morning and brags to everyone that he made a sacrifice. You call that a sacrifice? Doesn't this sound at all a bit silly to you, or do you really buy this kind of nonsense? OK maybe you do, but you at least must recognize how stupid it sounds.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/6e/6c/01/6e6c01f46d5d2ad161788a3341ee40ad.jpg)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 10:37:33 AM
The law remains for those who have not atoned for their sin.
Yeah, right. If your holey book does not fit your belief, then make shit up. Works for most theists.
Quote from: SGOS on June 26, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
Blood atonement is stupid. A god wouldn't need that. He could just disappear the problem and it's solved. He could go back in time and correct it. So then he says he's going to sacrifice his own son (because other people are wicked)? Kind of dumb, isn't it? So Jesus is alleged to have had a shitty weekend, but then God wakes him up on Sunday morning and brags to everyone that he made a sacrifice. You call that a sacrifice? Doesn't this sound at all a bit silly to you, or do you really buy this kind of nonsense? OK maybe you do, but you at least must recognize how stupid it sounds.
I use to think something similar till I was show something different..
What if the blood atonement was not necessarily for God.. what if it was more about us? Meaning what if God could make it all just go away like you said, but for Him it did cause greif or it pains Him deeply to see how far some of us Go in sin. What if the blood is simply a physical understanding of the level of pain/cost He endures when he makes it all just goaway.. What if He did all of that so that you would have some measurable understanding of the cost to Him, so that when he asks you to resect what has been done for you you have some idea, so way to gauge rather than blow it off or dismiss it.
I know not everyone will care but those who are called will at least look into this cost and try and empathize the spiritual cost/pain God endured to make all of this goaway, so that when He asks for us to respect Christ via believeing in Him and repenting of oursins we can see that vastness of what was done for us in relation to the minimal amount of respect that He asks in return..
So then how is that stupid?
Putting a cost that we can understand on an intangible like salvation?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 26, 2017, 11:33:28 AM
Yeah, right. If your holey book does not fit your belief, then make shit up. Works for most theists.
As you and jesus points out.. He did not come here to abolish the law..
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 12:07:24 PM
I know not everyone will care but those who are called will at least look into this cost and try and empathize the spiritual cost/pain God endured to make all of this goaway, so that when He asks for us to respect Christ via believeing in Him and repenting of oursins we can see that vastness of what was done for us in relation to the minimal amount of respect that He asks in return..
So then how is that stupid?
For starters, you just made half of that up. And then the rest of it was made up by someone else.
You know, the fact that a lot of us here once believed in god or whatever faith based system, and became atheist by their own accord, then having you show up claiming you have all the answers, as if your going to teach people here something they didn't already know.
The fact is, your not going to achieve anything whatever it is here, because even if you try to read from scripture and preach, people here stopped believe in it, because of the very nature of the practice itself. Infact I'm certain there are people who who are now atheist or agnostic who were more deeply engrossed in it then yourself Drich0150
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 12:08:50 PM
As you and jesus points out.. He did not come here to abolish the law..
Hence you are Jewish, right? Unless you mean only the Noahide laws.
Quote from: SGOS on June 26, 2017, 12:30:15 PM
For starters, you just made half of that up. And then the rest of it was made up by someone else.
made up 1/2 of what?
Quote from: Munch on June 26, 2017, 12:38:49 PM
You know, the fact that a lot of us here once believed in god or whatever faith based system, and became atheist by their own accord, then having you show up claiming you have all the answers, as if your going to teach people here something they didn't already know.
I don't have all the answer, I just have biblical answers, answers that legitimately lead to God..
To questions you guys are still chasing each other around with. Can God create a stone so big I can lift it, Epicurus' paradox, where did the people Adam's children marry come from, "what's the deal with blood atonement?' and on and on and on. all simple stuff if you know God and or the bible. The bottom line is, you had a picture of God, and it was tested and because you are honest you knew that God/your version of him did not exist. The problem with that is you wrongfully assume that just because God did not meet you 1/2 way doesn't mean there isn't a God at all.
QuoteThe fact is, your not going to achieve anything whatever it is here, because even if you try to read from scripture and preach, people here stopped believe in it, because of the very nature of the practice itself.
and if i don't plan on doing either? What if I can do something alittle different?
What if all I plan on doing is clearing up all the muck you guys spay down daily so that IF you wanted to see God all you had to do is step forward and follow the path.
I personally don't care what you do. I am not preaching to anyone person. i am simply breaking the paradoxes and the rest of the BS you fool yourselves with and challenging anyone of you to seek the truth. You say you can't believe in God because of ABCD well let me take ABCD out of your equation.. Guess what most of you won't believe in God anyway, but to the honest among you, you can no longer say it is because of ABCD.
Infact I'm certain there are people who who are now atheist or agnostic who were more deeply engrossed in it then yourself Drich0150
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Quote from: Baruch on June 26, 2017, 12:48:16 PM
Hence you are Jewish, right? Unless you mean only the Noahide laws.
...Till all is finished which was what Christ said on the cross which Full filled the law allowing the "saved/followers of Christ" to live apart from the law.
The Law remains, just not for the saved/followers of Christ.
Are you not familiar with the book of Romans?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 12:48:52 PM
made up 1/2 of what?
Everything. You do realize that you are quoting and mis-quoting from a work of fiction, don't you?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 26, 2017, 01:21:01 PM
Everything. You do realize that you are quoting and mis-quoting from a work of fiction, don't you?
So you can't hang in the discussion anymore and you decided to hit the panic stop button... Now I have been doing this long enough to chase you down that rabbit hole as well.. But I'll give you the break you seem to be asking for instead.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 10:55:55 AM
why is it stupid?
Have you ever read the crazy quran? That shit be crazy! This shit be just as crazy except your mommy and daddy told you it wasn't. You bought into it. That my friend, is stupid.
well you already said god aint no omni-max... blood atonement just goes to show he isnt all powerful cause he can't deal with sin or forgive
(maybe the whole blood sacrifice thing was invented by a priest with a serious craving for meat)
Hell doesn't last forever, in case you forgot death and Hell are suppsed to be cast into the lake of fire
If I read the Quran will I be entertained or will I be turned into a crazy sob that got some anger management issues?
Quote from: aitm on June 26, 2017, 01:53:15 PM
Have you ever read the crazy quran? That shit be crazy! This shit be just as crazy except your mommy and daddy told you it wasn't. You bought into it. That my friend, is stupid.
Actually I've studied it to some limited degree. that said it is not crazy. It is culturally specific theocracy. And it can be considered to be crazy if your cultural goals are not the same. If they are there can be many redeemable qualities found in the Quran. That said there are active commands for followers to kill non belivers and take what they have.
My view is to take what I can from the quran and use that to build relationship with people of that faith anytime our beliefs can come together and not conflict. but on the otherside I must keep distance from certain people when they wish to do us harm.
That is the difference between you and I. i look for common ground, you look for different ways see and attack me as a threat.
Quote from: fencerider on June 26, 2017, 03:00:31 PM
well you already said god aint no omni-max... blood atonement just goes to show he isnt all powerful cause he can't deal with sin or forgive
(maybe the whole blood sacrifice thing was invented by a priest with a serious craving for meat)
Hell doesn't last forever, in case you forgot death and Hell are suppsed to be cast into the lake of fire
If I read the Quran will I be entertained or will I be turned into a crazy sob that got some anger management issues?
What a narrow mind..
"If God aint no omni max God he cant..."
What if God's stoo-ped servant (me) stumbled across a word stronger that what an omni God would be?
What if omnimax god's always had to be 100% capasity or they fall into pardox... So then How can a god be all powerful if he is in constant danger of being paradoxed by his own power?
So then what if the all powerful God was simply not an omni max God but the supreme power in every aspect, how would you describe Him?
omni something would be a gut reaction for most, but I'd turn to the bible and see what He says about himself?
He says "I am the alpha and Omega, beginning and end to all things." A wise man would take time to understand what this means. If you do you would see, being the alpha and omega put God in the position of supreme power without danger of paradox or conflict. why? because it put's His will over the regulation of his power. to be alpha and omega means no other power or authority is greater, nothing dictates terms. so Can an alpha or omega God create a rock so big he can't lift it? only if he wants to he can if not he can't can an alpha and omega forgive without the shedding of blood.. again only if he wants to, but it seem He doesn't want to as we need to understand physically what some of the cost Spiritually God endured.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 01:08:52 PM
...Till all is finished which was what Christ said on the cross which Full filled the law allowing the "saved/followers of Christ" to live apart from the law.
The Law remains, just not for the saved/followers of Christ.
Are you not familiar with the book of Romans?
Ah yes, one of my favorites, Paul is a great Hellenistic rabbi .. but he isn't Jesus and he isn't G-d.
Quote from: fencerider on June 26, 2017, 03:00:31 PM
well you already said god aint no omni-max... blood atonement just goes to show he isnt all powerful cause he can't deal with sin or forgive
(maybe the whole blood sacrifice thing was invented by a priest with a serious craving for meat)
Hell doesn't last forever, in case you forgot death and Hell are suppsed to be cast into the lake of fire
If I read the Quran will I be entertained or will I be turned into a crazy sob that got some anger management issues?
If you were born, lived and died in 140 deg F Arabia ... you would naturally have anger issues ... and visions of very nice oases.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 03:02:04 PM
Actually I've studied it to some limited degree. that said it is not crazy. It is culturally specific theocracy. And it can be considered to be crazy if your cultural goals are not the same. If they are there can be many redeemable qualities found in the Quran. That said there are active commands for followers to kill non belivers and take what they have.
My view is to take what I can from the quran and use that to build relationship with people of that faith anytime our beliefs can come together and not conflict. but on the otherside I must keep distance from certain people when they wish to do us harm.
That is the difference between you and I. i look for common ground, you look for different ways see and attack me as a threat.
This is why in cultural terms, Judaism and Islam are closer than either are to Christianity. Both are semitic, but Christianity isn't.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 03:02:04 PM
you look for different ways see and attack me as a threat.
a threat? You? LOLOL.....the only "threat" people like you pose is trying to flush your shit down our schools systems. We have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that your religion is nothing but another version of Grimms fairy tales. Pure bullshit covered in horse shit. How any human of average intelligence, not looking to make money off the scam, can believe this crap is simply proof of a lousy education and worse, a dedication to NOT improving what you have. That is the sad state. People believe because they were told to believe and thus...they believe....meh...you have nothing to offer here, google "idiotsRus"....they might have a couple loose cells floating around.
Why so Grimm? The Grimm brothers found out differently, just how horrible fairy tales are ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfXQpg5m0iI
The regular posters here are so much like the ... French enlightenment fools.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 01:41:59 PM
So you can't hang in the discussion anymore and you decided to hit the panic stop button... Now I have been doing this long enough to chase you down that rabbit hole as well.. But I'll give you the break you seem to be asking for instead.
A long delusion is not any more real than a short one. Your belief can be as long and as sincere as any in history. That does not a fact establish. A fiction is a fiction from its inception to the end of time. Panic? Yeah--okay. :)))))) Give me one fact that your bible, god or savior are not fictional.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 11:06:02 AM
Then if you do not think that are you incapible of extrapolating a subject matter from a conversation? or does your need to find a loophole superseded you want for a civil discussion?
What? Where do you get these reasoning from, for starters?
Grasping for straws are we?
Quote from: Sal1981 on June 26, 2017, 07:54:12 PM
What? Where do you get these reasoning from, for starters?
Grasping for straws are we?
Extrapolation is always more risky than interpolation.
honestly if a real god showed up, it wouldn't bother me if he was as tempermental as Zeus. I wasn't taught anything about god being all powerful at anything before I was old enough to question the necessity of the feat.... probably in high school
I already know that the Bible says he is Alpha and Omega, which has nothing to do with blood atonement. The discussion was then about the necessity of blood atonement.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 26, 2017, 04:27:45 PMbeing the alpha and omega put God in the position of supreme power without danger of paradox or conflict.
So you're saying that when the only way for him to deal with sin is to kill his son he is not in conflict? How do you not see the act of killing his son as sick? (oh lordy, I just figured it out. god got some serious mental illness)
It doesn't matter much that this particular god has a mental illness cause he ain't ever showed up. I don't know how far Blackleaf went to find god ( I remember he was a youth leader and assistant pastor or something like that), but I've taken a few extremes for me. Short of getting in a space shuttle and going for a look I can say aint no god around these parts.
Quote from: fencerider on June 27, 2017, 01:22:30 AMIt doesn't matter much that this particular god has a mental illness cause he ain't ever showed up. I don't know how far Blackleaf went to find god ( I remember he was a youth leader and assistant pastor or something like that), but I've taken a few extremes for me. Short of getting in a space shuttle and going for a look I can say aint no god around these parts.
Youth leader, skit writer and director, singer, leader of student-service tech team, Sunday school teacher, Vacation Bible School volunteer, choir member, camera man, and general yes-man for when something needed to be done. While I was raised in a Christian environment, I had my "conversion experience" in my late teens, when I had a genuine experience where I dedicated my life to serving God. And despite all I had done gladly in service to God, no matter how much I prayed for guidance, God's presence remained completely absent.
Quote from: fencerider on June 27, 2017, 01:22:30 AM
honestly if a real god showed up, it wouldn't bother me if he was as tempermental as Zeus. I wasn't taught anything about god being all powerful at anything before I was old enough to question the necessity of the feat.... probably in high school
I already know that the Bible says he is Alpha and Omega, which has nothing to do with blood atonement. The discussion was then about the necessity of blood atonement.So you're saying that when the only way for him to deal with sin is to kill his son he is not in conflict? How do you not see the act of killing his son as sick? (oh lordy, I just figured it out. god got some serious mental illness)
It doesn't matter much that this particular god has a mental illness cause he ain't ever showed up. I don't know how far Blackleaf went to find god ( I remember he was a youth leader and assistant pastor or something like that), but I've taken a few extremes for me. Short of getting in a space shuttle and going for a look I can say aint no god around these parts.
Spock's brother proved that you can't find G-d even at the center of the Milky Way ;-) And no, G-d doesn't need a starship ... Kirk was right about that! When the human creator of warp drive wandered about the galaxy in old age, he didn't find G-d, he found an energy being, who happened to be a girl, who liked to touch him in all the right places ;-))
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 27, 2017, 02:15:08 AM
Youth leader, skit writer and director, singer, leader of student-service tech team, Sunday school teacher, Vacation Bible School volunteer, choir member, camera man, and general yes-man for when something needed to be done. While I was raised in a Christian environment, I had my "conversion experience" in my late teens, when I had a genuine experience where I dedicated my life to serving God. And despite all I had done gladly in service to God, no matter how much I prayed for guidance, God's presence remained completely absent.
You saw the image of G-d anytime you looked in the mirror, or in the face of another human or ... tselem elohim aka demigod.
You were misled as to what the face of G-d looks like (Jesus was quite clear on this, did you read that, about what does the Father look like?). I sometimes look for my glasses, when they are on my own nose. So don't feel bad about this.
The holy men that created a blood thirsty god were con men, just as the modern day holy men. They bamboozled people into thinking they were/are the spokesmen of God and that they have some kind of holy hot line to the Big Guy, and by designating themselves as the administrators of blood atonement doing the "work of God," they could gain support for the torture and abuse from which they derived perverse pleasure. People believed it and still do, because of ignorance and possibly a bit of sick perversion of their own. Actually, God is not a sick pervert. He doesn't appear to even exist in the first place. But the people who originally claimed to speak for him were, and in their defense they lived in a barbaric culture.
Some people are disgusted by torture and recognize it as in conflict with the concept of a protecting father, so the concept that God can be sick purveyor of misery is explained through a paradox: It is done as an ultimate act of love. Some of the secondary contradictions from such and illogical claim need to be reconciled also, but at some point, apologetics requires that a people stop questioning. Indeed, it requires a cessation of thinking. This is a safety valve people will use when they become overwhelmed with contradiction and nonsense.
Quote from: SGOS on June 27, 2017, 06:54:42 AM
The holy men that created a blood thirsty god were con men, just as the modern day holy men. They bamboozled people into thinking they were/are the spokesmen of God and that they have some kind of holy hot line to the Big Guy, and by designating themselves as the administrators of blood atonement doing the "work of God," they could gain support for the torture and abuse from which they derived perverse pleasure. People believed it and still do, because of ignorance and possibly a bit of sick perversion of their own. Actually, God is not a sick pervert. He doesn't appear to even exist in the first place. But the people who originally claimed to speak for him were, and in their defense they lived in a barbaric culture.
Some people are disgusted by torture and recognize it as in conflict with the concept of a protecting father, so the concept that God can be sick purveyor of misery is explained through a paradox: It is done as an ultimate act of love. Some of the secondary contradictions from such and illogical claim need to be reconciled also, but at some point, apologetics requires that a people stop questioning. Indeed, it requires a cessation of thinking. This is a safety valve people will use when they become overwhelmed with contradiction and nonsense.
If anyone supports either side in the Syrian civil war ... they live in a barbaric culture now. Also anyone who plays follow the leader. Common sense is the accumulation of prejudice you get by the time you are 18. It works the same for everyone.
Quote from: fencerider on June 27, 2017, 01:22:30 AM
honestly if a real god showed up, it wouldn't bother me if he was as tempermental as Zeus. I wasn't taught anything about god being all powerful at anything before I was old enough to question the necessity of the feat.... probably in high school
I already know that the Bible says he is Alpha and Omega, which has nothing to do with blood atonement.
Actually it does. it says God can do what ever the F God wants to do. That God's will supersedes any need to demonstrate his power to the fullest in any instance. Meaning if God says He needs blood then despite the capability of His power Blood is what God needs.
QuoteThe discussion was then about the necessity of blood atonement.So you're saying that when the only way for him to deal with sin is to kill his son he is not in conflict? How do you not see the act of killing his son as sick? (oh lordy, I just figured it out. god got some serious mental illness)
No. as the act of killing your own son must demonstrate a level of greif and pain unimaginable to most, let alone the way it was carried out. The reason this was done is to communicate to each of us on a level we can understand the pain it caused God to simply 'let sin go.' So then when He askes for the most basic of omage'/respect we should have no issue doing whatever.. yet he only asks for respect and the reverence to repent despite the cost.
QuoteIt doesn't matter much that this particular god has a mental illness cause he ain't ever showed up.
Bwahahaha God has a 'mental illness' because he hasn't showed up to you. Consider yourself the center of the universe do ya?? now who has the mental illness.
Quote
I don't know how far Blackleaf went to find god ( I remember he was a youth leader and assistant pastor or something like that), but I've taken a few extremes for me. Short of getting in a space shuttle and going for a look I can say aint no god around these parts.
You efforts will always be fruitless. Gotta do it God's way only. Humility is the key.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 27, 2017, 02:15:08 AM
Youth leader, skit writer and director, singer, leader of student-service tech team, Sunday school teacher, Vacation Bible School volunteer, choir member, camera man, and general yes-man for when something needed to be done. While I was raised in a Christian environment, I had my "conversion experience" in my late teens, when I had a genuine experience where I dedicated my life to serving God. And despite all I had done gladly in service to God, no matter how much I prayed for guidance, God's presence remained completely absent.
Because Salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit are two very different things. There are several examples in scripture where people are saved but do not receive the Holy Spirit. (not jumpng around and shaking your D at others, but rather the introductionof Spiritual fruits and the later addition of Spiritual gifts, and the gradual opening of the eyes ears and heart. to God.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 27, 2017, 10:22:18 AM
Because Salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit are two very different things. There are several examples in scripture where people are saved but do not receive the Holy Spirit. (not jumpng around and shaking your D at others, but rather the introductionof Spiritual fruits and the later addition of Spiritual gifts, and the gradual opening of the eyes ears and heart. to God.
And what does one do to receive the Holy Spirit, oh wise prophet?
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 27, 2017, 11:19:25 AM
And what does one do to receive the Holy Spirit, oh wise prophet?
That's the thing... with the Holy Spirit we all become prophets don't we???
In scripture the Holy Spirit can be given by the laying on of hands of the apstoles, it can for some happen in baptism or better yet as Jesus says in luke 11:5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly
Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.â€
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 27, 2017, 12:29:06 PM
That's the thing... with the Holy Spirit we all become prophets don't we???
In scripture the Holy Spirit can be given by the laying on of hands of the apstoles, it can for some happen in baptism or better yet as Jesus says in luke 11:5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.â€
And isn't that what all snake oil salesmen just love???!!! God will open every and any door--just ask! The only reason that door isn't wide open is because you did it wrong. Or not enough. Or you did not tithe enough. Or you need to be baptized or cleanzed, or fill in the blank. Yep--christian ministers from the beginning loved that passage--and used it as a club to control the flock. We all know you can have the holy spirit for the asking. And if you asked and did not get it, then the fault lies with(in) you. So, do it again--better. And again.
Once again babble from the babble which is fiction about a fictional god and savior. What a load of crap--crap that is eaten daily. Sad.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 27, 2017, 12:29:06 PM
That's the thing... with the Holy Spirit we all become prophets don't we???
In scripture the Holy Spirit can be given by the laying on of hands of the apstoles, it can for some happen in baptism or better yet as Jesus says in luke 11:5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.â€
I did ask him, on several occasions. So either he was ignoring me, he was taking a nap, or he doesn't exist. And once again, your attempts to claim that I somehow missed something have failed. I was fully immersed into the quest for God, more so than the vast majority of Christians, and most likely more so than you, and turned up empty. Perhaps one day, you'll wake up and realize all of the evidence you have of God is in your head.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 27, 2017, 10:19:02 AM
Actually it does. it says God can do what ever the F God wants to do.
apparently he is very f-ing good at images of jebus on grilled cheese sammiches and the occasional toilet bowl. Yep, dat be one bad ass god....lolololol.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 27, 2017, 10:19:02 AM
So then when He askes for the most basic of omage'/respect we should have no issue doing whatever.. yet he only asks for respect and the reverence to repent despite the cost.
of course, why cutting the skin off your dick is just "basic respect"... killing your son if he disobeys is just "paying omage". Forcing your daughter to marry her rapist is just "basic respect"... cutting off your wifes' body parts for coming to your defense is simply "paying omage". Demanding you kill babies and rape little girls is simply asking for respect and reverence to repent..."despite the cost". What a fucking piece of shit god....what a piece of shit follower.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 27, 2017, 02:25:32 PM
And isn't that what all snake oil salesmen just love???!!! God will open every and any door--just ask! The only reason that door isn't wide open is because you did it wrong. Or not enough. Or you did not tithe enough. Or you need to be baptized or cleanzed, or fill in the blank. Yep--christian ministers from the beginning loved that passage--and used it as a club to control the flock. We all know you can have the holy spirit for the asking. And if you asked and did not get it, then the fault lies with(in) you. So, do it again--better. And again.
Once again babble from the babble which is fiction about a fictional god and savior. What a load of crap--crap that is eaten daily. Sad.
Or as in your case not you were not even aware the method you must pray to receive the Holy Spirit. So you never even got around to it.. yet somehow you are trying to make this about impossible goals, or endless religious requirements...
Here's a thought how about maybe try and keep an open mind at least till you tried it.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 27, 2017, 04:52:10 PM
I did ask him, on several occasions. So either he was ignoring me, he was taking a nap, or he doesn't exist. And once again, your attempts to claim that I somehow missed something have failed. I was fully immersed into the quest for God, more so than the vast majority of Christians, and most likely more so than you, and turned up empty. Perhaps one day, you'll wake up and realize all of the evidence you have of God is in your head.
Did you follow the example given in the parable?
No you did not.
Before you offer your ya,huh in response please explain what the method presented in the parable in relation to what you did.
It's easy to claim you did abc, (even though you a-holes but a post ago were all asking what do we do/Meaning you did not know/you did not ask) you just more than likly asked for what you wanted earnestly and got nothing.
Seriously, if you don't know what you are asking for or don't know to want it badly enough to know how to ask... why would God give you anything?
Quote from: aitm on June 27, 2017, 05:14:56 PM
of course, why cutting the skin off your dick is just "basic respect"
book chapter and verse please..
Quote
... killing your son if he disobeys is just "paying omage".
Book chapter and verse please...
QuoteForcing your daughter to marry her rapist is just "basic respect"
book chapter and verse please...
Quotecutting off your wifes' body parts for coming to your defense is simply "paying omage".
book chapter and verse please.
Quote
Demanding you kill babies and rape little girls is simply asking for respect and reverence to repent..."despite the cost". What a fucking piece of shit god....what a piece of shit follower.
book chapter and verse please..
I seek validation per rule 6 to your quotations.
It seems to me you are quoting several different religions and wrongfully applying them to a straw man version of Christianity.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 08:57:14 AM
Did you follow the example given in the parable?
No you did not.
Before you offer your ya,huh in response please explain what the method presented in the parable in relation to what you did.
It's easy to claim you did abc, (even though you a-holes but a post ago were all asking what do we do/Meaning you did not know/you did not ask) you just more than likly asked for what you wanted earnestly and got nothing.
Seriously, if you don't know what you are asking for or don't know to want it badly enough to know how to ask... why would God give you anything?
No. I'm done justifying myself to you. Nothing I can say will ever convince your type.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 08:53:40 AM
Or as in your case not you were not even aware the method you must pray to receive the Holy Spirit. So you never even got around to it.. yet somehow you are trying to make this about impossible goals, or endless religious requirements...
Here's a thought how about maybe try and keep an open mind at least till you tried it.
Once again the assumptions that you know what I've done and how I've done it.
And this is not about impossible goals--it's about nonexistent goals. Can't reach goals that never was; that is beyond impossible. As far as keeping an open mind--look in the mirror when you say that. You have about as closed a mind as I've ever run across.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 09:30:15 AM
book chapter and verse please..Book chapter and verse please...
book chapter and verse please...
book chapter and verse please.
book chapter and verse please..
And there you have the typical xian. They know all about the parts of the babble ceptin' the parts they don't like.
Everything is in the babble boy. Read it for once.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 28, 2017, 09:36:25 AM
No. I'm done justifying myself to you. Nothing I can say will ever convince your type.
You don't have to justify anything. I simply pointout you were completely oblivious to what you have to do to obtain the holy spirit just one or two posts ago and then when I share luke 11 you claimed it to be "old hat."
That's me calling BS on your story, not asking you to reconcile anything. I know what happened so does everyone else so feel safe behind the idea that I haven't asked you to justify anything.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 10:08:42 AM
You don't have to justify anything. I simply pointout you were completely oblivious to what you have to do to obtain the holy spirit just one or two posts ago and then when I share luke 11 you claimed it to be "old hat."
That's me calling BS on your story, not asking you to reconcile anything. I know what happened so does everyone else so feel safe behind the idea that I haven't asked you to justify anything.
Me, oblivious. Right.
(https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/anderson-eyeroll.gif?w=650)
Quote from: aitm on June 28, 2017, 10:05:40 AM
And there you have the typical xian. They know all about the parts of the babble ceptin' the parts they don't like.
Everything is in the babble boy. Read it for once.
look sport I've studied the bible for more than 25 years, and never once has God asked any of that from any of us. That makes you in violation of rule 11. unless you can provide proof otherwise. so again put up or shut up I am asking you for BCV. If you want to claim the bible says abc stand behind your claim and provide the citation when ask.
Again this is your rule not mine. are you not able to obey your own rules? or are these rules just for Christians coming in?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 10:15:03 AM
look sport I've studied the bible for more than 25 years
Since we're calling each other out for bullshit, I'm going to remind you what you said shortly after coming here.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 11:02:30 AMSo again the question "have you read the bible from cover to cover" is a trick question. Because the bible is not one single book but a collection of books and letters. One must read it according to subject matter or one signifies that he does not know what he is doing.
No I have not read the bible from cover to cover because I understand that is not how is it to be read.
You claim to know a Bible you haven't thoroughly studied. You focused on the easier to swallow New Testament and ignored the many parts that were too disgusting for your pallet. People here have actually read the Bible from cover to cover. We know the Bible better than you.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 10:08:42 AM
You don't have to justify anything. I simply pointout you were completely oblivious to what you have to do to obtain the holy spirit just one or two posts ago and then when I share luke 11 you claimed it to be "old hat."
That's me calling BS on your story, not asking you to reconcile anything. I know what happened so does everyone else so feel safe behind the idea that I haven't asked you to justify anything.
You don't obtain the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit obtains you. Paranormal events are common, to atheists and pagans too.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 10:15:03 AM
look sport I've studied the bible for more than 25 years, and never once has God asked any of that from any of us. That makes you in violation of rule 11. unless you can provide proof otherwise. so again put up or shut up I am asking you for BCV. If you want to claim the bible says abc stand behind your claim and provide the citation when ask.
Again this is your rule not mine. are you not able to obey your own rules? or are these rules just for Christians coming in?
There is a difference between reading and study. There is a difference between knowledge and understanding. I haven't seen any sign of knowledge or understanding. Please check out Proverbs.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 28, 2017, 10:21:30 AM
Since we're calling each other out for bullshit, I'm going to remind you what you said shortly after coming here.
You claim to know a Bible you haven't thoroughly studied. You focused on the easier to swallow New Testament and ignored the many parts that were too disgusting for your pallet. People here have actually read the Bible from cover to cover. We know the Bible better than you.
Are you stupid or something?
I've pointed out reading the bible cover to cover is not how the bible was indended to be read. This does not mean i did not read the bible. I pointed out that the bible was a SERIES of other books, and I even went so far as to post how the bible was classified and what Order I did read the bible in. Then I explained to ask someone if you read the bible from cover to cover is a trick question. Because again that is not how it is meant to be read, so if you do read it that way you don't know what you are doing.
That said if you know the bible better how many times have you broken out the original Koine Greek or Hebrew to provide the proper exegesis of a given word or passage? I have at least 2 dozen times. If you know the bible better than I do why are you asking me how to obtain the Holy Spirit? why couldn't you at least do an index search or something? If you know the bible better than i do then why ask the stupid day two question about water above the sky.. 9oh because maybe you don't understand basic science) never mind on that one.
Again I have spent my adult life in study, and as a result found God. You have the commentary and faith in others like you that someone on your side is smarter... Here's the thing sport. I've done all the leg work my self, my theories and shared stories are my own. I filter them nor my responses through anyone else. So when you challenge me you are challenging the direct source, unlike when I challenge one of you, and all you have to argue is the content of the commentary you are puking up before me.
So sit down mud duck, you ain't got nthn on me
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 12:58:33 PM
Are you stupid or something?
Yes. Clearly I'm stupid for thinking that you have to read a book to know what it says.
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 11:55:45 AM
You don't obtain the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit obtains you. Paranormal events are common, to atheists and pagans too.
The picture often described is a pouring out or a gift being given this would indicate obtaining a measure of the infinate Holy Spirit. As not everyone has the same gifts of depth of gift, but we are given what we can manage at the time/think parable of the talents.
That is true many outside of God experience things... That is because God is not the only being offering such a 'ride.'
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 11:58:00 AM
There is a difference between reading and study. There is a difference between knowledge and understanding. I haven't seen any sign of knowledge or understanding. Please check out Proverbs.
To be fair, if you could extrapolate proper understanding from scripture, you would not be the confused religious mess you boast in being. So then if your example of reading or understand happens to be the measure from which you measure others, then wouldn't stand to reason unless someone shared your views, you would simply discount what was not favorable to your brand of theology???
Isn't that exactly what you've been doing from the start? offering one liners and sniping comments from the side lines never truly engaging, because you simply discount anything that does not fit your predetermined religious mold?
If that is the case what makes you think I WANT to be counted among what you see to be knowledgeable or understanding?
in other words,
Why do I care if you see me as a 'good Pharisee?"
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 01:09:05 PM
To be fair, if you could extrapolate proper understanding from scripture, you would not be the confused religious mess you boast in being. So then if your example of reading or understand happens to be the measure from which you measure others, then wouldn't stand to reason unless someone shared your views, you would simply discount what was not favorable to your brand of theology???
Isn't that exactly what you've been doing from the start? offering one liners and sniping comments from the side lines never truly engaging, because you simply discount anything that does not fit your predetermined religious mold?
If that is the case what makes you think I WANT to be counted among what you see to be knowledgeable or understanding?
in other words,
Why do I care if you see me as a 'good Pharisee?"
Ask yourself this: Why do I and some other atheists here respect Baruch, who is a theist, but not respect you? Clearly, it isn't a mere difference of opinions and beliefs that makes us see you as a moron, because we don't see Baruch in the same light at all. So what's the difference between you and Baruch? Why is he a valued member of our forums, but you are looked down on as the newest idiot of the month?
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 28, 2017, 01:19:34 PM
Ask yourself this: Why do I and some other atheists here respect Baruch, who is a theist, but not respect you? Clearly, it isn't a mere difference of opinions and beliefs that makes us see you as a moron, because we don't see Baruch in the same light at all. So what's the difference between you and Baruch? Why is he a valued member of our forums, but you are looked down on as the newest idiot of the month?
why do zoo's like claw-less and toothless tigers? because they are harmless. No offense to Mr.Obama but if I had someone that looked like sounded like a 600 lb tiger but in the back of my mind knew he could hurt me I'd like to have him around myself.
Here's the thing though sport. that's not me. If you want to have all you debates softballed pitched to you then I'm sure mr. obama more than fits the bill. however if you want to be challenged and have your ideology challenged to the point of truth, then I need my fangs and claws to help you carve down all the B/S you spent a life time surrounding yourself with.
Sorry but that's the way it is.
besides that who else is going to call you for trying to use peer pressure to regulate my responses to you? seriously dude. I need to seriously respect you for that, and that move alone just emptied the can..
True and an accurate picture of the God of the bible is what I am here to provide to anyone who wants it. Sorry but not sorry if the God of the bible is s little harder to dismiss than the god you put away for not bring you the girl you wanted in school.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 01:36:00 PM
why do zoo's like claw-less and toothless tigers? because they are harmless. No offense to Mr.Obama but if I had someone that looked like sounded like a 600 lb tiger but in the back of my mind knew he could hurt me I'd like to have him around myself.
Here's the thing though sport. that's not me. If you want to have all you debates softballed pitched to you then I'm sure mr. obama more than fits the bill. however if you want to be challenged and have your ideology challenged to the point of truth, then I need my fangs and claws to help you carve down all the B/S you spent a life time surrounding yourself with.
Sorry but that's the way it is.
besides that who else is going to call you for trying to use peer pressure to regulate my responses to you? seriously dude. I need to seriously respect you for that, and that move alone just emptied the can..
True and an accurate picture of the God of the bible is what I am here to provide to anyone who wants it. Sorry but not sorry if the God of the bible is s little harder to dismiss than the god you put away for not bring you the girl you wanted in school.
Wrong again. Baruch is accepted here because he is an expert. He is knowledgeable. He speaks and writes in Hebrew, and has many years of experience to speak from. You, on the other hand, are an expert only in your own eyes. A typical, arrogant Christian. It's a wonder you can stand with a head that big.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 28, 2017, 02:01:34 PM
Wrong again. Baruch is accepted here because he is an expert. He is knowledgeable. He speaks and writes in Hebrew, and has many years of experience to speak from. You, on the other hand, are an expert only in your own eyes. A typical, arrogant Christian. It's a wonder you can stand with a head that big.
Such an expert he lost his faith.... hmmm that's like being such a good car mechanic that you car doesn't start, or such a good chef that everything you cook is too salty.. Riddle me this what if you toothless tiger turn his fangs on you? what if he took reading and writting in hebrew (which again I have left many passages broken down for you in the hebrew and english as well but appearently you skip over the bits that makes you look bad) and many years of experience and turned them on you? What if he started like I did and broke down you little so story on why you are not Christian and assigned a spiritual fault to it, would all of that mastery and knowedge mean the same to you then/ or would he be another joke ass hole like me?
That's what I mean by toothless tiger sport. because he does not attack beyond a mild gumming he is your buddy. but if he were to take down the BS that you believe and show you the foolishness of it all, you'd be singing a different tune.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 02:33:39 PM
Such an expert he lost his faith.... hmmm that's like being such a good car mechanic that you car doesn't start, or such a good chef that everything you cook is too salty.. Riddle me this what if you toothless tiger turn his fangs on you? what if he took reading and writting in hebrew (which again I have left many passages broken down for you in the hebrew and english as well but appearently you skip over the bits that makes you look bad) and many years of experience and turned them on you? What if he started like I did and broke down you little so story on why you are not Christian and assigned a spiritual fault to it, would all of that mastery and knowedge mean the same to you then/ or would he be another joke ass hole like me?
That's what I mean by toothless tiger sport. because he does not attack beyond a mild gumming he is your buddy. but if he were to take down the BS that you believe and show you the foolishness of it all, you'd be singing a different tune.
Once again you assume you know what we on this board think and reason; what we have studied or experienced. But then, you are a theist and do not need to think or reason--in fact, you are not supposed to do that. All you aspire is to believe and have faith which shuns thinking and reasoning. You have shown you are good at creating far fetched fictions and then believing in them and being proud of your faith. I'm sure those in the insane houses of worship (all of them) think you are right on.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 28, 2017, 02:40:05 PM
Once again you assume you know what we on this board think and reason; what we have studied or experienced. But then, you are a theist and do not need to think or reason--in fact, you are not supposed to do that. All you aspire is to believe and have faith which shuns thinking and reasoning. You have shown you are good at creating far fetched fictions and then believing in them and being proud of your faith. I'm sure those in the insane houses of worship (all of them) think you are right on.
I gave a whole list of reason to why I think what I do. anyone of which is open for correction. however that is not your game, that is not what you want. you want no trial but the right to judge and condemn. if this weren't the case it would have been easy for you to simply show me where i was wrong. but rather you show contempt and anger for the time I have shared with you.
Quote from: aitm on June 27, 2017, 05:14:56 PM
of course, why cutting the skin off your dick is just "basic respect"... killing your son if he disobeys is just "paying omage". Forcing your daughter to marry her rapist is just "basic respect"... cutting off your wifes' body parts for coming to your defense is simply "paying omage". Demanding you kill babies and rape little girls is simply asking for respect and reverence to repent..."despite the cost". What a fucking piece of shit god....what a piece of shit follower.
Piece of shit is exactly the way he likes to send us messages!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzbwNpmzURg
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fzbwNpmzURg/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 02:33:39 PM
Such an expert he lost his faith.... hmmm that's like being such a good car mechanic that you car doesn't start, or such a good chef that everything you cook is too salty.. Riddle me this what if you toothless tiger turn his fangs on you? what if he took reading and writting in hebrew (which again I have left many passages broken down for you in the hebrew and english as well but appearently you skip over the bits that makes you look bad) and many years of experience and turned them on you? What if he started like I did and broke down you little so story on why you are not Christian and assigned a spiritual fault to it, would all of that mastery and knowedge mean the same to you then/ or would he be another joke ass hole like me?
That's what I mean by toothless tiger sport. because he does not attack beyond a mild gumming he is your buddy. but if he were to take down the BS that you believe and show you the foolishness of it all, you'd be singing a different tune.
lol! He lost the faith, therefore he must know nothing. What moronic logic.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 02:33:39 PM
Such an expert he lost his faith.... hmmm that's like being such a good car mechanic that you car doesn't start, or such a good chef that everything you cook is too salty.. Riddle me this what if you toothless tiger turn his fangs on you? what if he took reading and writting in hebrew (which again I have left many passages broken down for you in the hebrew and english as well but appearently you skip over the bits that makes you look bad) and many years of experience and turned them on you? What if he started like I did and broke down you little so story on why you are not Christian and assigned a spiritual fault to it, would all of that mastery and knowedge mean the same to you then/ or would he be another joke ass hole like me?
That's what I mean by toothless tiger sport. because he does not attack beyond a mild gumming he is your buddy. but if he were to take down the BS that you believe and show you the foolishness of it all, you'd be singing a different tune.
Hahah ... lost my faith? You really do jump to conclusions! I rate a major theist here ... my faith grows every day. And I hope yours does too. The regular folks ... they have a lot to offer as human beings, most of them with lots of experience and many with years of Bible study behind them. And I don't judge any of them (in a religious sense) ... I don't like all of them, but I do like many of them.
BTW - in a vivid dream years ago, I already met Jesus. Have you? What I got out of that and all the rest, is that any realistic Jesus, is Jewish, not Christian. But as Jewish, I don't seek to convert people (I will leave the Buddhists, Christians and Muslims to do that). I simply put my light on a stand, and stand back! I teach Hebrew to adults at synagogue ... you know, that place that Jesus attended?
I too had a vivid dream in which I met Jesus. It was pretty weird, though:
Jesus and I, and some other friends of ours were at an execution where the emperor's representative was going to let some really big boulders roll down a big ramp and crush the prisoners below. But when they cut the ropes that were holding the boulders, nothing at all happened. His guys were jumping up and down on the boulders trying to get them to fall, but they just stayed right where they were, hanging on nothing at the top of the ramp. Jesus was laughing so hard! We all (his buddies) knew what he was doing, so we were all laughing too, while the authorities were ranting and raving, so mad were they.
Next Jesus and I went to a sort of pub, where he told me to wait in the next room while he got us some drinks. While I was waiting for him, he told some big ugly mean guys that I thought they were weak cowards, and that I could whip them all!
Well, they did indeed get very angry, and came into the room I was in with the intention of proving me wrong. But Jesus had secretly given me great fighting prowess, so I really did kick their big tough butts.
But I was so mad at Jesus for doing that to me that when I found him outside, laughing his ass of, I grabbed him by the throat and slammed him as hard as I could on his back on the ground. But, of course, being Jesus, he just turned himself into stone until after he hit the ground, and then jumped up, completely unhurt, and we both laughed at that!
Then I woke up.
Now you are engaging me ;-) Until now, there was no point in shadow boxing ...
Quote
To be fair, if you could extrapolate proper understanding from scripture, you would not be the confused religious mess you boast in being. So then if your example of reading or understand happens to be the measure from which you measure others, then wouldn't stand to reason unless someone shared your views, you would simply discount what was not favorable to your brand of theology???
I do have a proper understanding of scripture ... unfortunately there is no way to communicate anything, including that, except with people with an equivalent level of experience. BTW - the only people serious about religion, are atheists and heretics ... the non-conformists are the one's who care the most. Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc and Jesus, James, Paul etc were all non-conformists. Of course just being non-conformist doesn't mean you have insight .. it is just that the sheeple don't have insight. Not that there is anything wrong with that. G-d must love sheeple a great deal ... but was willing to seek out the one lost sheep, and valued it over the 99 who stayed on tune.
As a Jewish person, and an informed skeptic ... I have no problem with people not sharing my views. That isn't my mission from G-d. I know my mission, and that isn't part of it. The Great Commission is very misunderstood by Christians ... unless "they know us by our love". Until the Christian religion got taken over by the Roman Mafia ... it had some potential as a movement. After that, only individual Christians get it ... in spite of the religion. But this is true of Judaism and Islam too. Living religion is spiritual, not material ... and it is love, not hate. Reread Paul on "love" ... you are don't get him too well yet ... but do keep trying! Paul was a great rabbi ... heretical rabbi.
Quote
Isn't that exactly what you've been doing from the start? offering one liners and sniping comments from the side lines never truly engaging, because you simply discount anything that does not fit your predetermined religious mold?
Why does verbosity count? Isn't that false sophistry? Have you never heard of Jewish humor? And aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? Einstein said, if you can't explain something to a 6 year old, then you don't really understand it yourself. I wish college professors would take heed.
Quote
If that is the case what makes you think I WANT to be counted among what you see to be knowledgeable or understanding? in other words, Why do I care if you see me as a 'good Pharisee?"
First of all, I am not a Pharisee, or a Sadducee. And I don't claim to be "good" anything. As to what you need to think, feel, and do ... that is between you and G-d. A great rabbi, Rabbe Nachman of Bratislava once said ... "When Mordecai (in Poland) went before HaShem ... he apologized for not being more like Moses or David. But HaShem surprised him ... HaShem said "I didn't want you to be more like Moses or David ... I wanted you to be more like Mordecai (in Poland)"".
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 28, 2017, 07:02:14 PM
I too had a vivid dream in which I met Jesus. It was pretty weird, though:
Jesus and I, and some other friends of ours were at an execution where the emperor's representative was going to let some really big boulders roll down a big ramp and crush the prisoners below. But when they cut the ropes that were holding the boulders, nothing at all happened. His guys were jumping up and down on the boulders trying to get them to fall, but they just stayed right where they were, hanging on nothing at the top of the ramp. Jesus was laughing so hard! We all (his buddies) knew what he was doing, so we were all laughing too, while the authorities were ranting and raving, so mad were they.
Next Jesus and I went to a sort of pub, where he told me to wait in the next room while he got us some drinks. While I was waiting for him, he told some big ugly mean guys that I thought they were weak cowards, and that I could whip them all!
Well, they did indeed get very angry, and came into the room I was in with the intention of proving me wrong. But Jesus had secretly given me great fighting prowess, so I really did kick their big tough butts.
But I was so mad at Jesus for doing that to me that when I found him outside, laughing his ass of, I grabbed him by the throat and slammed him as hard as I could on his back on the ground. But, of course, being Jesus, he just turned himself into stone until after he hit the ground, and then jumped up, completely unhurt, and we both laughed at that!
Then I woke up.
The Emperor is a bowler in Boulder? Who knew! ;-))
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 03:34:40 PM
I gave a whole list of reason to why I think what I do. anyone of which is open for correction. however that is not your game, that is not what you want. you want no trial but the right to judge and condemn. if this weren't the case it would have been easy for you to simply show me where i was wrong. but rather you show contempt and anger for the time I have shared with you.
No, you gave no reasons. You gave a bunch of what if's. And your beliefs. By reasons, I mean empirical evidence. Thinking requires to examine facts. Not personal stories--those can never be proven. Not beliefs, for they cannot be proven either and faith is just blindness. I did not ask you here--nobody did. You came of your own accord. If you don't like your treatment ask you fictional god to fix it for you. Or stay away.
Question 1 ; I'm actually curious to know. Drich, how do you personally view anyone whom isn't a faithful follower of your God?
Do you view us as 'lost', 'pitiful' or perhaps even 'ignorant'?
As a follower of the Invisible and Pink Unicorn I've found that She is very tolerant and even forgiving of those whom do not acknowledge and praise Her existence.
Question 2 ; How do you envision 'hell' or even 'heaven' if you actually do believe in it?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 01:02:09 PM
The picture often described is a pouring out or a gift being given this would indicate obtaining a measure of the infinate Holy Spirit. As not everyone has the same gifts of depth of gift, but we are given what we can manage at the time/think parable of the talents.
That is true many outside of God experience things... That is because God is not the only being offering such a 'ride.'
If there is more than one god, then you are not a monotheist. If you are not a monotheist, you are a polytheist. If you are a polytheist, you are a pagan. Just like most Christians (nothing wrong with that, but it is hilarious that Christians flunk arithmetic). See, when Rome took over Christianity (not the other way around) they drug in all their pagan beliefs into what had once been a kind of monotheism (there were lots of angels and demons, but only one G-d). This is the problem when you cast your pearls before swine or dogs (aka Gentiles). Tertullian invented tri-theism about 150 years after Paul. BTW - a talent is a unit of weight. When applied to silver or gold, it is a huge amount of wealth.
On the Holy Spirit ... Ruach HaKodesh ... did you know that is feminine? And per Genesis, Adam was originally hermaphrodite? This is the Holy Spirit ... when a man finds his inner woman (in the spiritual sense, not the sexual sense). Similarly per the last entry in the Gospel of Thomas, the Holy Spirit ... is when a woman finds her inner man (in the spiritual sense, not the sexual sense). At that point ... per Kabbalah, "yihud" or unification happens. This also happens when a man and a woman cohabit (but being gay is OK too). But with with a partner, we become one person in two bodies. With the possession of the Holy Spirit ... that is two persons in one body. Or if you have to go farther ... three or four persons in one body ... that much Tertullian thought he understood. All of this is Kabbalah, which the Gentiles, and most Jews, have no understanding.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 10:15:03 AM
look sport I've studied the bible for more than 25 years, and never once has God asked any of that from any of us.
If you want to claim the bible says abc stand behind your claim and provide the citation when ask.
You are either ignorant or a liar. If you are not familar with those then you simply have never read the babble even once. I doubt you are over 12 let alone "studied" the babble....I won't call you retard..but peeps like you are retarded.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 28, 2017, 10:15:03 AM
look sport I've studied the bible for more than 25 years
You must be a spectacularly slow reader.
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 06:47:26 PM
Hahah ... lost my faith? You really do jump to conclusions! I rate a major theist here ... my faith grows every day. And I hope yours does too. The regular folks ... they have a lot to offer as human beings, most of them with lots of experience and many with years of Bible study behind them. And I don't judge any of them (in a religious sense) ... I don't like all of them, but I do like many of them.
BTW - in a vivid dream years ago, I already met Jesus. Have you? What I got out of that and all the rest, is that any realistic Jesus, is Jewish, not Christian. But as Jewish, I don't seek to convert people (I will leave the Buddhists, Christians and Muslims to do that). I simply put my light on a stand, and stand back! I teach Hebrew to adults at synagogue ... you know, that place that Jesus attended?
He probably means you lost
the faith. That is, his particular variety of Christianity; the only one that matters to him. If he doesn't get that you're a theist yet, he's exceptionally thick.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 28, 2017, 10:18:26 PM
He probably means you lost the faith. That is, his particular variety of Christianity; the only one that matters to him. If he doesn't get that you're a theist yet, he's exceptionally thick.
I never had his faith, of course ... I'm not him. BTW - Judaism and Islam are about orthopraxis, not orthodoxy. They aren't about belief systems ... that is strictly a Christian thing.
Drich, as Kevin Rutherford would say, "did you have 25 years of experience, or one year of experience 25 times?"
Drich you seem convinced that we all had some fake religous experience, but you haven't done a good job on explaining why think yours is real.
Quote from: trdsf on June 23, 2017, 11:28:22 AM
Being a human being. You have to be made into a believing entity, either by indoctrination, or by talking yourself into it later in life. There is no such thing as a Christian baby, a Buddhist baby, a Hindu baby any more than there is such a thing as a Democratic or Republican baby. There is no form of god-belief that is innate. I'm of the opinion that a child is born not even agnostic, but just plain indifferent to the idea of a divine force.
We are what we are taught to be mostly, but some of us escape that. There are so many good examples. Twins separated at birth who grow up in households with different beliefs for example.
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 06:47:26 PM
Hahah ... lost my faith? You really do jump to conclusions! I rate a major theist here ... my faith grows every day. And I hope yours does too. The regular folks ... they have a lot to offer as human beings, most of them with lots of experience and many with years of Bible study behind them. And I don't judge any of them (in a religious sense) ... I don't like all of them, but I do like many of them.
BTW - in a vivid dream years ago, I already met Jesus. Have you? What I got out of that and all the rest, is that any realistic Jesus, is Jewish, not Christian. But as Jewish, I don't seek to convert people (I will leave the Buddhists, Christians and Muslims to do that). I simply put my light on a stand, and stand back! I teach Hebrew to adults at synagogue ... you know, that place that Jesus attended?
Yes, I did indeed meet Christ and stared into His eyes while He judged me. (i'm actually taller which is a supprise) His eyes and the love in them is what I remember most!
And yes I heard and acknowledged your experiences before with telling you to check or filter your experience through scripture as not all willing to claim to be Jesus are. it is only through the bible can we be sure.
I did this with my experience and it squares right. From what Christ told me, to what He said to the guy next to me, to his fina words to everything I experienced in Hell even though I had no idea what was there.
Why? because again God is not the only one giving rides in that realm. Look at mohammad, Joseph Smith and all the other false prophets. I am not taking anything away from what they claim because I know all of that is possible. but at the same time I also know God is not responsible for everything we experience. the only true way to know is to run our experiences through the bible, and vet them. Vet what was said, vet what you experience, because bottom line if you are trying to worship the God of the bible, the bible is the only tool we have been given to make said worship possible. therefore it is on the God of the bible to maintain the accuracy of scripture or forgive us when we go off path.
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 07:03:05 PM
Now you are engaging me ;-) Until now, there was no point in shadow boxing ...
I do have a proper understanding of scripture ... unfortunately there is no way to communicate anything, including that, except with people with an equivalent level of experience. BTW - the only people serious about religion, are atheists and heretics ...
unless they do indeed find God. Then religion finds it's place.
Quotethe non-conformists are the one's who care the most. Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses etc and Jesus, James, Paul etc were all non-conformists. Of course just being non-conformist doesn't mean you have insight .. it is just that the sheeple don't have insight. Not that there is anything wrong with that. G-d must love sheeple a great deal ... but was willing to seek out the one lost sheep, and valued it over the 99 who stayed on tune.
agree, that is what I mean about religion will find it's place. Meaning the 'non conformist' understands religion is a double edged sword when it comes to establishing a relationship with God. it can cut away many barriers and put you in a prime position for salvation but on the other side it can harm you as the methodolodigy of worship becomes the primary concern in worship, rather than the actual worship of God.
I do not know a better example than that of judism that we can use to illustrate this point. why? because Jesus Himself rightly divides the word and puts the judgement on this religion and all of where it failed.
So then why return to it? Because 'jesus' told you in a dream? seiously did Jesus tell us in the bible that religion as practiced was broken? why? because it was about religion and not God, which again is the problem with all religion. So why seek out any religion?
QuoteAs a Jewish person, and an informed skeptic ... I have no problem with people not sharing my views. That isn't my mission from G-d. I know my mission, and that isn't part of it. The Great Commission is very misunderstood by Christians ... unless "they know us by our love".
unless they know us by Agape not 'love' love is a western sentiment that only includes niceties. Agape' includes the rod of disipline. it is not measured on the surface according how we do things as love is it is measured by intent, and the selfless nature of the one who is investing in others.
QuoteUntil the Christian religion got taken over by the Roman Mafia ... it had some potential as a movement. After that, only individual Christians get it ... in spite of the religion.
Again the goal of God is not religion. The whole goal of God is individual relationships. religion funnels worship to God through a structure. God with christ too that structure away and now we are granted direct access via the Holy Spirit.
Quote
But this is true of Judaism
As Christ Himself ointed out judaism is it's own worst enemy.
Quoteand Islam too. Living religion is spiritual, not material ...
everything about islam is material what are you talking about? it mission (world domination) it's after life are material rich all of it it material based!
Quoteand it is love, not hate. Reread Paul on "love" ... you are don't get him too well yet ... but do keep trying! Paul was a great rabbi ... heretical rabbi.
wow so because I can reconsile the teaching of Paul with the teaching of Jesus seamlessly, and you can't... you say I don't get paul??? how very jewish of you.
Quote
Why does verbosity count?
who's counting? I only say what needs to be said.
QuoteIsn't that false sophistry?
Not but feigning wisdom through silence is.
QuoteHave you never heard of Jewish humor?
me? what do I know of Humor?
QuoteAnd aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? Einstein said, if you can't explain something to a 6 year old, then you don't really understand it yourself. I wish college professors would take heed.
why is it do you think I speak the way I do? to take the time to filt out all of the religious terms and word and use their common terms? (which makes me seem more verbose as someone recently pointed out)
Quote
First of all, I am not a Pharisee, or a Sadducee. And I don't claim to be "good" anything.
do you believe in the resurrection?
QuoteAs to what you need to think, feel, and do ... that is between you and G-d. A great rabbi, Rabbe Nachman of Bratislava once said ... "When Mordecai (in Poland) went before HaShem ... he apologized for not being more like Moses or David. But HaShem surprised him ... HaShem said "I didn't want you to be more like Moses or David ... I wanted you to be more like Mordecai (in Poland)"".
Oy! that Hashem
Quote from: invisibleandpink on June 28, 2017, 07:18:32 PM
Question 1 ; I'm actually curious to know. Drich, how do you personally view anyone whom isn't a faithful follower of your God?
there is only those who follow and those who do not. those who want to know the truth and those who do not.
Quote
Do you view us as 'lost', 'pitiful' or perhaps even 'ignorant'?
I honestly believe more of you will be in heaven that last day than what you yourselves will be there. Salvation is easy and ever lasting. it's the relationship part that not everyone gets... That is the absolute best part and why I am trying to help those who want to know God how to know Him.
Quote
As a follower of the Invisible and Pink Unicorn I've found that She is very tolerant and even forgiving of those whom do not acknowledge and praise Her existence.
if you've never seen your pink unicorn how do you know it exists?
Quote
Question 2 ; How do you envision 'hell' or even 'heaven' if you actually do believe in it?
I did a thread on my experience in Hell, and my judgement by Christ.
I learned Hell is forever, but our time in it is not. I suspect our time in hell has to do with how long God seeks to punish us for the life we lived. I found out hell fire is not actual fire, but it evokes the emotion of being consumed by fire. that being consumed by Hell fire is not only pain related but a gutteral primal freak out experience that tears or rips through the body till the thin threads of your sanity are finally burned/consumed.. s to one degree or another Hell consumes you bit by bit. I found out what gnashing of teeth was and why it is a big deal. Found out satan is not incharge of Hell put is imprisoned there along with his angels who are also under extreme torment. That there is no escape, only acceptance and maybe mercy in the way of God allowing the fires to eat you faster. And it is dark pit that i never reached the bottom of, but was told I had merely entered the gates... That I only experienced the beginning.
Heaven was the oppsite. for the breifest of moments i could see and understand ...everything. Heaven was knoweledge, heaven was love and I felt complete there/I lacked or wanted nothing. That street of gold didn't mean it was a lavish place it meant that the wealth and prized of man were merely the common building material of God... once I got an understanding of what Heaven was I was given my judgement and sent to Hell.
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 07:19:20 PM
If there is more than one god, then you are not a monotheist. If you are not a monotheist, you are a polytheist. If you are a polytheist, you are a pagan.[/quoe] only to the simply minded. God is not a name old sport it is a title. as in God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One God, or one office of creator and ruler of everything three individuals that hold that office.
To be a polytheist there must be many God's a god of the sun, a god of the moon, a god of the water, or love. ect. again only one God in Christianity like there is only one government that rules the united states, but there are with in the one government 3 branches or three separate seats of power yet only one governing body. There is only one governing body one creator of the universe but 3 individual who share that title.
QuoteJust like most Christians (nothing wrong with that, but it is hilarious that Christians flunk arithmetic).
and if you are on the wrong subject all together?
QuoteSee, when Rome took over Christianity (not the other way around) they drug in all their pagan beliefs into what had once been a kind of monotheism (there were lots of angels and demons, but only one G-d).
And can't you see I've cut all of that BS out of what i teach here? oh, that's right youre feign a minimalist's wisdom. rather than be a wisman of few word you feign being a wisman of few words by not getting involved/not reading most of what is said outside of 'sniping comments' like those two old muppets who sit in the balcony who have very little to say, but do so one line at a time. Oh, Hohohoho!
Quote
This is the problem when you cast your pearls before swine or dogs (aka Gentiles). Tertullian invented tri-theism about 150 years after Paul.
then why does Paul use it first? actually why does Christ use it first at his baptism where all three are present? better yet why does David and Isaiah identify the holy Spirit first? (in manuscripts that supersede 150ad)
QuoteBTW - a talent is a unit of weight. When applied to silver or gold, it is a huge amount of wealth.
if I remember correctly about 16 years of wages for a working man. (6000) days worth of work
Quote
On the Holy Spirit ... Ruach HaKodesh ... did you know that is feminine?
wow.. you are dangerous.. 1/2 truth galore
Kodesh Ruach is "Holy Spirit" in Hebrew it is used only 3 times in the OT and Kodesh is the mascilune form of the word. Hakodesh would be the femine but is never actually used that way. why would you go through all that trouble just to lie? are you wanting to be caught?
After the OT and it's 3 uses the word changes as the language changes from hebrew to koine Greek with holy Spirit then becomes:á¼...γιοÏ, hagios πνεῦμα pneuma which in the greek does not denote gender.
And unlike you here is my citation to proof my work.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=holy+spirit&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
QuoteAnd per Genesis, Adam was originally hermaphrodite?
citation please.
Quote
This is the Holy Spirit ... when a man finds his inner woman (in the spiritual sense, not the sexual sense). Similarly per the last entry in the Gospel of Thomas, the Holy Spirit ... is when a woman finds her inner man (in the spiritual sense, not the sexual sense). At that point ... per Kabbalah, "yihud" or unification happens. This also happens when a man and a woman cohabit (but being gay is OK too). But with with a partner, we become one person in two bodies. With the possession of the Holy Spirit ... that is two persons in one body. Or if you have to go farther ... three or four persons in one body ... that much Tertullian thought he understood. All of this is Kabbalah, which the Gentiles, and most Jews, have no understanding.
I studied with several great rabbi's in my time and i would venture a guess most jews are unaware of that mess you just pooped out on page as well.
Quote from: aitm on June 28, 2017, 08:11:03 PM
You are either ignorant or a liar. If you are not familar with those then you simply have never read the babble even once. I doubt you are over 12 let alone "studied" the babble....I won't call you retard..but peeps like you are retarded.
No as my Genesis 1 day two example I am very familiar with the bible. I'm not arrogant it is just a fact.
I have alot of experience dealing with atheistists and particular atheists in this format. I know 90% of everything you guys claim to be in the bible simly isn't or can be cleared up with a contextual reading.
So why do I ask for BCV one because it is you rule that you provide a citation when ever you plagerize/copy from a written text. This makes the verse slinger one slow down, and check the BS he/you are willing to put out there is you are the one strawmanning quotes from the bible.
Two it hold you accountable so when I provide the contextual reading or give you a scientific answer like your genesis day 2 question. I can ram those facts down your throat and make you look as foolish as possible, or if you truly are sinsere and just don't know I can take the time to explain it all..
when the Skeptic's annodated bible came out people would just cut and paste cut and paste large swaths, and at first I didn't know what was happening So i went line by line researched it all and answered everysingle whatever that came up. Then I caugh on and later found the SAB Answered. There is where a group of guys over several pizzas and a long few weekends hammered out answers to everything in the SAB.
So now when douche bags cut and paste from the SAB (which is a hack job of the bible and if you do not read the SAB you can rarly identify a text as 1/2 of it is a straw repersentation of the real bible) I goto the SABA and cut and paste the corresponding passages.
For you specifically you have hacked the bible so badly there is nothing of merrit to identify the passages you are supposed to be quoting. I can guess but it seems you are often times pulling from several different stories/sources at once.
Quote from: Baruch on June 28, 2017, 10:55:07 PM
I never had his faith, of course ... I'm not him. BTW - Judaism and Islam are about orthopraxis, not orthodoxy. They aren't about belief systems ... that is strictly a Christian thing.
That's a load
ask and sunni or shea who is the infidel and then why
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 29, 2017, 12:50:57 PM
That's a load
ask and sunni or shea who is the infidel and then why
"do you believe in the resurrection?" ... as a zombie, yes!
You have a lot of beams to pull out of your eyes. See an ophthalmologist today!
I didn't have time yet to read your longer post this morning, but I don't do point-by-point repudiation either.
Quote from: fencerider on June 29, 2017, 01:31:40 AM
Drich, as Kevin Rutherford would say, "did you have 25 years of experience, or one year of experience 25 times?"
Drich you seem convinced that we all had some fake religous experience, but you haven't done a good job on explaining why think yours is real.
what I have so far is a thread on questions. This over time will bear out it's own fruit. meaning over time an honest person will see I have answered each and every question and most of the time not in the typical christian way. given enough time and question you will begin to see a pattern of unique knowedge and incite that makes the bible that never made sense, jive or speak together with one voice.
This is not a study thing.. this is an access to God thing. My studies centered around sourcing and vetting princiles and ideas in alot of really old texts. why? because my revelations come differently that most. people like your 'theist' would study and study and study to try and fit peices together.
I am given ideas, precepts and even visions. So then I take what i have been given and work backwards to vet my findings. Like the bit I was given that takes the garden narritive and consumes all of evolution. I was given a maybe 20 min daydream and it is literally the most sound theological narrative that answers every single contradiction or continuity error any and every atheist every identified/put to paper. and what's more it is EXTREMELY SIMPLE yet encompasses everything, and better yet NOTHING in the bible has to be changed. nothing added nothing taken away. All we must do is identify the traditional telling of this account and reread it fresh with an open mind.
So the questions will over time set what I do here apart. over time you will see a consistency, and you will hear me credit everything to the God of the bible. Not the christian God or the god of s specific religion only to the God of the bible, then you will start to see thing bear out over time.
But even so how do I know I got the right God? because He has literally given me everything the bible says he will and much much more. He has full filled most of the prophesy the angel gave me and blessed me with more than I could have ever chosen for myself to have. what's more I am content with what I have. I have fund true joy and happiness and wish to share it.
Quote from: Baruch on June 29, 2017, 12:53:52 PM
"do you believe in the resurrection?" ... as a zombie, yes!
if only a zombie then that makes you Sad-u-cee?
Quote
You have a lot of beams to pull out of your eyes. See an ophthalmologist today!
I didn't have time yet to read your longer post this morning, but I don't do point-by-point repudiation either.
i understand gotta keep up the silent but wise Shitc
I'm going to ask a serious question, since I'm an interfaith minister and have a vested interest in understanding other belief systems.
What are your thoughts on the New Covenant and its effect on the Old one? Is the latter totally invalidated, or merely edited?
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 29, 2017, 01:23:57 PM
I'm going to ask a serious question, since I'm an interfaith minister and have a vested interest in understanding other belief systems.
What are your thoughts on the New Covenant and its effect on the Old one? Is the latter totally invalidated, or merely edited?
I explained this a couple of times before but I could use the practice.
We as new covenant 'off shoots' are but graphs into the old covenant. The old covenant/the old law still exists.
However when I say that, we must first understand the nature of the law.
The law can be diveded into 3 parts. the law of moses (which is what it meant to live as an OT Jew/social law weddings slaves diet clothing ect)
The law of the temple/the religious cermonies (how many times to wash hands, type of incense, type of animals to be sacrificed, who could be a preist, what they wore)
The moral law/God's law. (10 commandments)
now alot of people who think we NT christian are stuck under OT law tend to qoto what Jesus said in mat 5 "I did not come to destroy the law of moses or the teaching of the prohhets..
but they tend to stop there they key is in what he said next:
" I have come not to destroy their teachings but to give full meaning to them. 18 I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it has all been done."
So the next key is to ask yourself as any of that ever come to pass? heaven or earth pass or way or has "all has been done." Heaven and earth are still here, but Jesus did say something similar on the cross just before he died. (Depending on which translation you get) "It is finish or all has been done."
So if all has been done what does this mean? as he said the least shift in the law is now possible. what does that mean? it means what Jesus said at the beginning of mat 5 the law is complete.. now ask yourself what part of the law was left outstanding/incomplete? It was the sacrifices made for sin. they were on going/never finished. but now that all has been done this part of the law has been perminatly satisfied.
Now what does this mean? it means atonement abounds per what Paul said in Romans.
Meaning for the believer we are in a perpetual state of being forgiven. Meaning we are no longer judged by the law to determine whether or not we are worthy of heaven. What matter is, was Jesus worthy of Heaven based on His life lived against the law.
But we also have to remember the law remains until heaven and earth passes away So which law/ the law of moses the law of the temple or the moral law of God? I say all of it. but here's the thing..
What happened when you broke a law of moses... as a jew this was like breaking one of our societal laws, but because they lived in a theocrisy their soceital laws became apart of being a moral person. But what Jesus has done on the cross seperates being a good jew from being a moral jew. (but that's neither here nor there for a gentile) So a gentile breaking a jewish soceital law means he can not be an OT jew as the laws did not extend out to gentile behavior. eat shrimp mix fabrics so what.. you are not an OT jew.
Same thing with the temple or laws that determine jewish worshp. If a gentile broke a worship law there was no repercussion.(meaning he could not worship as an OT Jew but so what) didn't wash your hand/gross but so what not a jew, didn't offer your tithe again so what not a jew.
God's moral law is the only thing that applies because exo 20 these were God's laws and not just the laws of the jews/Laws meant to define OT judaism) . These 'moral' laws remain in effect, and yet these laws are the laws Christ completed. Because remember the law not only told you right from wrong but also set the penence for the sin. Christ was the perminate penance for all sin... for the saved.
For the unsaved it is these laws the God will judge you by. because remember the law does not goaway till heaven and earth are gone. but for the christian they have been full filled for the lost they will be their judgement.
Now New covenant: God has two laws that sum up everything
Love you lord God with all of your being. love your neighbor as yourself. if you under the atonement of Christ can do these two things you will have everlasting life.
That said being saved is not the same as having a relationship with God. And know there is nothing we can 'do' that makes us Christian. Jesus alone decides who is and is not saved/Christian. That is why i say some of you will be shocked (most won't) on which side the pearly gates you watch the judgement on.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 29, 2017, 11:17:46 AMYes, I did indeed meet Christ and stared into His eyes while He judged me. (i'm actually taller which is a supprise) His eyes and the love in them is what I remember most!
Did Jesus happen to look like this?
(http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Savior.jpeg)
Praise white Jesus!
Will the real Jesus please stand up...
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/151/590x/secondary/Jesus-2-414199.jpg)
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 29, 2017, 06:37:31 PM
Will the real Jesus please stand up...
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/151/590x/secondary/Jesus-2-414199.jpg)
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/cc/cc6db7c498a5018b59ac65c05917c976dfa0a1e1eca5b4acfe6e651c05571a3a.jpg)
Real Jesus had a big nose.
Like Jimmy Durante? I bet he wasn't as funny, though.
Quote from: Munch on June 29, 2017, 06:52:06 PM
Real Jesus had a big nose.
If Jesus were not a fiction he could have had a big nose. He would not be white.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 29, 2017, 07:31:26 PM
If Jesus were not a fiction he could have had a big nose. He would not be white.
Blasphemy! And besides, if Jesus weren't white, why is it every time he appears on toast, he looks like this????
(http://www.goddiscussion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Jesus-Christ-Toast-blog.jpg)
Checkmate atheists!
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 29, 2017, 02:11:58 PM
So the next key is to ask yourself .....
there it is....xians be like "READ THE BABBLE, FIND DA LAWD...DA TRUTH BE IN DA BABBLE....GODS WORDS ARE PERFECT...IT ALL BE IN DA BABBLE.....but
suddenly, it takes a word "mixologist" to decipher what the babble "really means" ..I mean. MY GOD DO YOU THINK GOD WROTE IT TO BE UNDERSTOOD?????
So contortinists put their legs behind their head, their arms around their neck and their head up their ass in order to make what the babble really says into what they think the babble says..hence....one must "ask yourself"..what you want the babble to say.
To bad they don't actually...you know...read it.
But hey....what kind of exercise would that be?
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 29, 2017, 07:06:35 PM
Like Jimmy Durante? I bet he wasn't as funny, though.
The body language of Jesus' jokes aren't clear in the NT. They didn't have selfies yet. The joke about what comes out of you, defiles you ... that is a shit joke!
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 29, 2017, 01:21:50 PM
if only a zombie then that makes you Sad-u-cee?
i understand gotta keep up the silent but wise Shitc
I think you meant ... schtick. Yiddish, not Hebrew. Jesus was a schnorrer.
BTW - the average rabbi, imam or priest, doesn't know what they are talking about. Clergy are generally the last to understand G-d.
Summary of Proverbs ... get a yiddisher kopf, leave behind your goyisher kopf.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 29, 2017, 07:38:38 PM
Blasphemy! And besides, if Jesus weren't white, why is it every time he appears on toast, he looks like this????
(http://www.goddiscussion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Jesus-Christ-Toast-blog.jpg)
Checkmate atheists!
That's because that's on white toast. Have you seen what he looks like on dark rye???
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 29, 2017, 09:07:07 PM
That's because that's on white toast. Have you seen what he looks like on dark rye???
Probably Aust-rye-lian. :)
Oh, hey, now I have this lovely mental image of Jesus knocking back a can of Foster's...
drich your long post has 18 or 19 spelling errors in it, slow down man
tithe is not a Jewish thing it is in many places in the new testament. Paul is the one that brings it up the most.
there aren't any pearly gates to get into heaven. There is one pearl gate. One of 12 gates to enter the new Jerusalem. No where near the judgement.
sorry about all the misspellings i will work on that.
tithe is defined in the OT as a 10% tax that is to be paid directly to God via the temple.
This is not what paul mentions in 1cor 16:2 Paul say set something aside... Yes it is giving back but it is not a set amount. it is based on what you can Give.
When I say tithe I mean the legal tax God put on the jews. He has no such requirement on the church.
Oh and I do run a business during the day as well, so my responses will always seem a little rushed or hurried. That said if something is unclear just ask and I will respond with a correction.
The ignorance of believers in their own belief system never fails to amaze and amuse me! If I had a nickle for every time I have shown a theist something they never knew about their own beliefs, I would have nearly $10!
Quote from: aitm on June 29, 2017, 07:48:46 PM
there it is....xians be like "READ THE BABBLE, FIND DA LAWD...DA TRUTH BE IN DA BABBLE....GODS WORDS ARE PERFECT...IT ALL BE IN DA BABBLE.....but
suddenly, it takes a word "mixologist" to decipher what the babble "really means" ..I mean. MY GOD DO YOU THINK GOD WROTE IT TO BE UNDERSTOOD?????
So contortinists put their legs behind their head, their arms around their neck and their head up their ass in order to make what the babble really says into what they think the babble says..hence....one must "ask yourself"..what you want the babble to say.
To bad they don't actually...you know...read it.
But hey....what kind of exercise would that be?
Yeah, people like Drich say "the Bible doesn't really mean what it says - it means what
I say!"
It's just pathetic...
Quote from: trdsf on June 29, 2017, 11:02:35 PM
Probably Aust-rye-lian. :)
Oh, hey, now I have this lovely mental image of Jesus knocking back a can of Foster's...
That's
Holy Fosters to you, heathen!
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 30, 2017, 10:32:12 AM
tithe is defined in the OT as a 10% tax that is to be paid directly to God via the temple.
It's not going "directly" to God if it's got to go through a middleman. I don't think you even know what the word "directly" means.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 03, 2017, 08:40:09 PM
That's Holy Fosters to you, heathen!
I'm more a St. Guinness follower m'self. :)
While I don't give a fig about the nonsense in the Christian text, I suppose I am more exposed to it than other religious texts. Thats why I laugh at the contents of it more than the others. But the jewish and moslem ones are pretty close in general concepts, so there isn't much difference. And the others are equally nonsensical.
Questions and answers, alright then. If god is so good as Christians say he is, and all powerful since the claim is he made everything, why then did he invent fish that swim into your dick and parasites that eat your eyeballs?
An all good being wouldn't have made up something like that, so perhaps he isn't all powerful. But if he isn't all powerful, it means he can't be good because he would have created those things to cause suffering to people, since the claim is he made it all.
Of course I know the go to answer Christians have for this too. God is all powerful, except when its contradicted, and then its the devil who made it. But that in itself means he isn't all powerful, since he can't do fuck all about evil in the world.
Quote from: Munch on July 06, 2017, 06:49:20 AM
Questions and answers, alright then. If god is so good as Christians say he is, and all powerful since the claim is he made everything, why then did he invent fish that swim into your dick and parasites that eat your eyeballs?
An all good being wouldn't have made up something like that, so perhaps he isn't all powerful. But if he isn't all powerful, it means he can't be good because he would have created those things to cause suffering to people, since the claim is he made it all.
Of course I know the go to answer Christians have for this too. God is all powerful, except when its contradicted, and then its the devil who made it. But that in itself means he isn't all powerful, since he can't do fuck all about evil in the world.
The ways of God are mysterious and wonderful. His purposes are unknown. He has a purpose for everything. Even the parasites. All matter to Him in his mightyness. Therefore one cannot question the purpose of the least bedbug or urination-attracted fluke. Bow down to His logic...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 06, 2017, 06:55:53 AM
The ways of God are mysterious and wonderful. His purposes are unknown. He has a purpose for everything. Even the parasites. All matter to Him in his mightyness. Therefore one cannot question the purpose of the least bedbug or urination-attracted fluke. Bow down to His logic...
Usually ecologically minded biologists agree ... everything in biology has a purpose ... not a Parisite myself but ... "Retour à vous balle de fourrure"
Quote from: Munch on July 06, 2017, 06:49:20 AM
Questions and answers, alright then. If god is so good as Christians say he is, and all powerful since the claim is he made everything, why then did he invent fish that swim into your dick and parasites that eat your eyeballs?
to get stupid evolved monkey men to stop peeing it his water supply, and to keep little monkey men kids from swimming in dangerous water.
QuoteAn all good being wouldn't have made up something like that,
Here's the thing about the word 'good' sport it is not a universal term the word 'good' means good for you. If God is good for just you, he will have to F' several other people if not nations. So God does not seek to be good but righteous. Which means God does what is good for HIM and not douche bags who want to live in heaven while on earth and do nothing to deserve it.
Quote
so perhaps he isn't all powerful.But if he isn't all powerful, it means he can't be good because he would have created those things to cause suffering to people, since the claim is he made it all.
Or He is simply an alpha and omega, which means his will comes first before the exercise of power.
Quote
Of course I know the go to answer Christians have for this too. God is all powerful, except when its contradicted, and then its the devil who made it. But that in itself means he isn't all powerful, since he can't do fuck all about evil in the world.
Ah... no.
Say it with me God is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to All this. This means there is no authority higher, which means God can do what ever he wants.
So can God creat a rock so big He can not lift it? yes if He wants to No if He does not want to. Can God save a million orphans from starvation, again yes if He wants to, or if he wants he can give a neighboring country an over abundance of wealth and charge those people with releaving the suffering of those orphans in his stead... remember sport alpha and omega= God does what ever the F* god wants to do.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 06, 2017, 06:55:53 AM
The ways of God are mysterious and wonderful. His purposes are unknown. He has a purpose for everything. Even the parasites. All matter to Him in his mightyness. Therefore one cannot question the purpose of the least bedbug or urination-attracted fluke. Bow down to His logic...
what would happen if their were absolutely no restrictions absolutely no war or anything that would limit or regulate human growth? what if we then also lived 200 years??? how long before our natural resources were depleted or worse yet how long before the strong subjugate the weak into harvesting said resources in such a way as to have no parallel yet thus far in history because our global resources have yet to feel such a tax?
The Human race is a virus on this planet (per Mr. Smith/matrix) and it is devouring/consuming all the resources on the planet. If Humanity was uncheck do you really think we would last this long?
parasites are apart of the ebb and flow the ying and yang that balances out the planet population growth. without it this planet would already be used up.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 06, 2017, 09:35:48 AMWhich means God does what is good for HIM and not douche bags who want to live in heaven while on earth and do nothing to deserve it.
I thought the point of faith-based salvation was that you CAN'T deserve heaven. As the Bible says:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."But please, Mr. Righteous Christian Who Totally Doesn't Have An Ego As Big As A Humpback Whale, tell me. What do you do to deserve Heaven? Write poorly written arguments for atheists on the internet? Sit in church once a week to get your weekly
indoctrination education from your pastor? Occasionally putting a five in the offering plate?
Not only does this guy not have any actual answers he does not even have any real questions. He is bereft of any value to this board or himself. I think I'll ignore this stupid creature.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 06, 2017, 12:09:15 PM
Not only does this guy not have any actual answers he does not even have any real questions. He is bereft of any value to this board or himself. I think I'll ignore this stupid creature.
Good move. Join the club...
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 06, 2017, 11:41:06 AM
I thought the point of faith-based salvation was that you CAN'T deserve heaven. As the Bible says:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But please, Mr. Righteous Christian Who Totally Doesn't Have An Ego As Big As A Humpback Whale, tell me. What do you do to deserve Heaven? Write poorly written arguments for atheists on the internet? Sit in church once a week to get your weekly indoctrination education from your pastor? Occasionally putting a five in the offering plate?
When you die a "Christian" you don't go to Heaven. Bum ba bummm... You are resurrected and live on earth. after the 1000 year reign satan is reloosed from Hell to incite rebellion once again, and this time when the war is over those who turn with satan will be sealed in hell forever.
Then New Heaven and a New Earth will be created... The "saved" who remained faithful durning this 1000 period are to live on new Earth. The faithful the servants, those who do stuff for God, those who work... they get to move on to heaven with Him to various degrees based on what they were given and what they did with what they got.. everyone else moves into Heaven's getto if street of Gold could ever be considered such a place.
Like I said, salvation is easy, come as you are... that is what your verses are describing. Do nothing else and God has an apartment for you, and a job custom fit for you.
True Service is what is hard. we must do what God tells us to do. as a result we (servants/slaves) get a bigger share get to be Closer to God, because we are faithful to what we have been given. (parable of the talents)
Your confusion? you assume what you know of Heaven and Hell/salvation is what the bible teaches.. and you are confusing what I teach/What the bible says, with the B/S that failed you and your faith.
Yes Heaven is easy for us because of Jesus, which is why I do not seek to convert you douche bags as 1/2 of you are probably still on the roster. What I am trying to share, is what you as a 'son' are entitled to, but I guess some are just destined for ghetto life. (it's a jewish word before one of you morons trys and pulls a race card) Which is fine. However what if I am telling the 100% truth, and you like me have been granted complete access to God via the Holy Spirit? What would you ask, what do you think you could want? What is the cost??? that's a new one huh for you freebe faithers...
But keep pretending my beliefs are the same as your foolish man faith... That you got it right first time out the gate/born into it and all I am doing is lying.
Don't come at me like I am wrong, have at least the humility to try and open endly ask your question from neutral ground.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 06, 2017, 12:09:15 PM
Not only does this guy not have any actual answers he does not even have any real questions. He is bereft of any value to this board or himself. I think I'll ignore this stupid creature.
you are right or at least 1/2 right in that I have no other questions to ask.. I am here seeking your questions because God answered all of mine a long long time ago.
That said I do think i did a pretty good job answering the question above your post. And when the poster thought he was sooooooo sure he got me to with a theological paradox.
God prevails again sport!
Quote from: Munch on July 06, 2017, 06:49:20 AM
Questions and answers, alright then. If god is so good as Christians say he is, and all powerful since the claim is he made everything, why then did he invent fish that swim into your dick and parasites that eat your eyeballs?
An all good being wouldn't have made up something like that, so perhaps he isn't all powerful. But if he isn't all powerful, it means he can't be good because he would have created those things to cause suffering to people, since the claim is he made it all.
Of course I know the go to answer Christians have for this too. God is all powerful, except when its contradicted, and then its the devil who made it. But that in itself means he isn't all powerful, since he can't do fuck all about evil in the world.
That must be a paradox!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AH5QVsEpGP8/U3u2V4oH3SI/AAAAAAAAEfU/lFmvr3imKLQ/s1600/pair+o+ducks+Zeno%27s+Italian+Food.png)
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 06, 2017, 05:03:13 PMWhen you die a "Christian" you don't go to Heaven. Bum ba bummm... You are resurrected and live on earth. after the 1000 year reign satan is reloosed from Hell to incite rebellion once again, and this time when the war is over those who turn with satan will be sealed in hell forever.
Sounds like a big wait for a B-movie plot or lackluster wrestling event.
This SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY!! J-dog and the Devilman face off in Hell in a Cell in WWE SUPERSLAM! Only $777! Get your tickets now!
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 06, 2017, 05:03:13 PM
When you die a "Christian" you don't go to Heaven.
You are resurrected and live on earth.
*after the 1000 year reign satan is reloosed from Hell to incite rebellion once again,
Simply mind-boggling that this is considered intelligent thinking. Even more mind-boggling that this "gods" methods are considered perfectly acceptable and rational....I mean what could possibly be troubling about a all-loving god allowing satan to come back and start over? I mean...do these idiots ever listen to themselves? I mean this shit is straight out of the minds of fairy tale writers....and they buy it? Just mind-boggling. And yet they keep retching this crap without batting an eye. Talking snakes and donkeys, oh my.
That'll do, Donkey.
:)))
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 06, 2017, 05:14:23 PM
That must be a paradox!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AH5QVsEpGP8/U3u2V4oH3SI/AAAAAAAAEfU/lFmvr3imKLQ/s1600/pair+o+ducks+Zeno%27s+Italian+Food.png)
Zeno ""If being is many, it must be both like and unlike, and this is impossible, for neither can the like be unlike, nor the unlike like."
See? That's why I laugh at philosophy...
Quote from: Cavebear on July 06, 2017, 09:44:03 PM
Zeno ""If being is many, it must be both like and unlike, and this is impossible, for neither can the like be unlike, nor the unlike like."
See? That's why I laugh at philosophy...
As a living paradox?
Zeno like his boss, Parmenides, was forcing a more careful definition of metaphysics. Aristotle mistakenly thought he had overcome these. The paradox of motion (per Zeno) wasn't overcome until Calculus, which required the invention of Analytic Geometry. However, a solution does not a resolution make. The correctness of the solution, still depends on the correctness of the axioms. And as we found out about geometry and alternatives, and geometry and physics ... in the 19th and 20th centuries ... rigor is approximate, never exact.
Buddhists would dance around Zeno's paradoxes, since they were using a more advanced logic than the West. Paraconsistent in fact.
Democritus was the "laughing philosopher" .. appropriate if you are a materialist.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 06, 2017, 05:03:13 PMTrue Service is what is hard. we must do what God tells us to do. as a result we (servants/slaves) get a bigger share get to be Closer to God, because we are faithful to what we have been given. (parable of the talents)
You still haven't answered my question. What do you do with your "talents?" Afraid to admit that your deeds are pitifully lacking?
When I was a Christian, I was simultaneously leading in the student service tech team, singing in the band, writing skits for Sunday school, leading discussions in Sunday school, volunteering in vacation Bible school, volunteering in outreach projects, helping with various charity organizations, giving my own money to the church before I had a job, and aspiring to bring glory to God in my daily life by being as kind, generous, and forgiving as possible, and praying for God's leadership and opportunities to win souls.
So please, Mr. Righteous. Impress me. Tell me what you've been doing with what God gave to you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 10, 2017, 10:21:40 AM
You still haven't answered my question. What do you do with your "talents?" Afraid to admit that your deeds are pitifully lacking?
When I was a Christian, I was simultaneously leading in the student service tech team, singing in the band, writing skits for Sunday school, leading discussions in Sunday school, volunteering in vacation Bible school, volunteering in outreach projects, helping with various charity organizations, giving my own money to the church before I had a job, and aspiring to bring glory to God in my daily life by being as kind, generous, and forgiving as possible, and praying for God's leadership and opportunities to win souls.
So please, Mr. Righteous. Impress me. Tell me what you've been doing with what God gave to you.
will do a whole new thread just for you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on July 10, 2017, 06:06:42 PM
Oh joy.
Well, what would we do without bizarmadillos like Drich to post against? Oh wait, talk to each OTHER! Which is mostly why I'm here.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 06, 2017, 09:42:11 AM
what would happen if their were absolutely no restrictions absolutely no war or anything that would limit or regulate human growth? what if we then also lived 200 years??? how long before our natural resources were depleted or worse yet how long before the strong subjugate the weak into harvesting said resources in such a way as to have no parallel yet thus far in history because our global resources have yet to feel such a tax?
our natural resources are being depleted. the strong do subjugate the weak and have since the beginning of civilization. I suppose your church teaches the idea; completely unsupported from the Bible; that god won't allow humans to destroy this planet.
Wait a sec...the brutality of war, resource depletion, the plight of the little guy - those are are actual, serious problems. And a religious person was the one to do it? :headscratch:
Not homosex perverts turning little Timmy gay through Rainbow Fries or if this year's blood moon signals the End Times or whether the existence of bananas refute atheism-evolution or whether or not Adam rode a brontosaurus bareback or with a saddle? (Adam was naked, so duh, he had a saddle.)
Actual, serious problems brought up by a religious person. Is this year a leap year?
Quote from: fencerider on July 16, 2017, 09:51:23 PM
our natural resources are being depleted. the strong do subjugate the weak and have since the beginning of civilization. I suppose your church teaches the idea; completely unsupported from the Bible; that god won't allow humans to destroy this planet.
Yes moron they are being depleted, I know, that is my point, now I ask you consider the rate of depletion if we added the trillions killed off by war and by famine and disease, plus all of the unborn that never were because their parents died in war or in some other way. If you multiplied the current population by 10 I don't think you could account for all the people who would be on this earth if no one died by anything except old age.
Soilent green anyone?
Actually the bible says God Himself will destroy this world after the 1000 year reign of Christ/after the resurrection.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 17, 2017, 08:32:26 AMYes moron they are being depleted, I know, that is my point, now I ask you consider the rate of depletion if we added the trillions killed off by war and by famine and disease
You just don't understand population dynamics, do you? Or the fact that so far, about 108
billion people have been born?
QuoteI don't think you could account for all the people who would be on this earth if no one died by anything except old age.
Why would an all-powerful, all-merciful god allow
anyone to die? Ever? He could have created the world with the ideal number of people and let us all live forever. Oh, right, that would be too simple for your super-complicated god.
QuoteActually the bible says God Himself will destroy this world after the 1000 year reign of Christ/after the resurrection.
And science knows that the sun will consume the world in 4 billion years.
After the 1,000 year reign after the resurrection, huh? Well, let's see if you're as smart as a 3rd grader. The resurrection was around the year 33 CE. (Dennis the Humble made up the "year of Christ's birth" out of whole cloth, but let's just assume, for the moment, that it was really 787 AUC.) 1,000 years after that would be 1,033. And that's when your god will destroy the world, huh? Boy, I'm not paying
this sloth by the hour. How many more millennia is it going to be before he finishes "destroying" it?
(BTW, you
do realize, don't you, that the only original source for a "Christ" is the Bible, right? And that, as described in said Bible, he was a spirit that lived in the 7th heaven? The "man form" of Jesus dates to about 187 CE. After all, if Mithra and Osiris and the other 8 "mystery godlets" existed in human form, yours did to. But Paul, the
only Biblical source of Jesus, described him as a spirit. And assuming that we buy into your wrong-headed idea that he was also a man is just you making more of a fool of yourself every time you make that assumption.)
Quote from: fencerider on July 16, 2017, 09:51:23 PM
our natural resources are being depleted. the strong do subjugate the weak and have since the beginning of civilization. I suppose your church teaches the idea; completely unsupported from the Bible; that god won't allow humans to destroy this planet.
Some will die, some will live. Industrialization will collapse.
Quote from: Colanth on July 17, 2017, 05:23:27 PM
You just don't understand population dynamics, do you? Or the fact that so far, about 108 billion people have been born?
Glob...
What is it do you think I was describing in my last post there old sport? or did you not read that bit?
QuoteWhy would an all-powerful, all-merciful god allow anyone to die?
because not all want to live forever. this life this death will separate out those who do want to live from those who do not. How could you know what you want unless you experienced both?
QuoteEver? He could have created the world with the ideal number of people and let us all live forever.
That almost sounds like Heaven...Oh, wait it is!! That is what comes after this life smart guy. Otherwise it would be Hell for those who did not want to live forever.
QuoteOh, right, that would be too simple for your super-complicated god.
Kinda already spell out genius. In that this is why life will eventually be.
QuoteAnd science knows that the sun will consume the world in 4 billion years.
Maybe that is why there is a promise of a new heaven and a new earth!
QuoteAfter the 1,000 year reign after the resurrection, huh?
So says the bible
QuoteWell, let's see if you're as smart as a 3rd grader. The resurrection was around the year 33 CE.
(Dennis the Humble made up the "year of Christ's birth" out of whole cloth, but let's just assume, for the moment, that it was really 787 AUC.) 1,000 years after that would be 1,033. And that's when your god will destroy the world, huh? Boy, I'm not paying this sloth by the hour. How many more millennia is it going to be before he finishes "destroying" it?
frigging idiot... Next time ask a question. Rev 20 speaks of two resurrections. the first Jesus will call the 'saved' to live with him for 100 years, then He will call for everyone else. to judgement and then satan for one last skirmish, then new heaven new earth and all the baddies will be sent to Hell.
Quote(BTW, you do realize, don't you, that the only original source for a "Christ" is the Bible, right?)
:histerical:
You mean aside from (BTW, you do realize, don't you, that the only original source for a "Christ" is the Bible, right? Pontius Pilate's letters and the letters from Pliny the younger to emporer tragan and then emperor's tragen's letter in return???
QuoteAnd that, as described in said Bible, he was a spirit that lived in the 7th heaven?
book Chapter and verse please
QuoteThe "man form" of Jesus dates to about 187 CE.
citation never head that one before.
QuoteAfter all, if Mithra and Osiris and the other 8 "mystery godlets" existed in human form, yours did to.
ow you are just all over the place.
QuoteBut Paul, the only Biblical source of Jesus, described him as a spirit.
book chapter and verse please.
QuoteAnd assuming that we buy into your wrong-headed idea that he was also a man is just you making more of a fool of yourself every time you make that assumption.)
I make no assumptions which is why I asked for so many citations
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 18, 2017, 12:05:19 PM
Glob...
What is it do you think I was describing in my last post there old sport? or did you not read that bit?
because not all want to live forever. this life this death will separate out those who do want to live from those who do not. How could you know what you want unless you experienced both?
That almost sounds like Heaven...Oh, wait it is!! That is what comes after this life smart guy. Otherwise it would be Hell for those who did not want to live forever.
Kinda already spell out genius. In that this is why life will eventually be.
Maybe that is why there is a promise of a new heaven and a new earth!
So says the bible
frigging idiot... Next time ask a question. Rev 20 speaks of two resurrections. the first Jesus will call the 'saved' to live with him for 100 years, then He will call for everyone else. to judgement and then satan for one last skirmish, then new heaven new earth and all the baddies will be sent to Hell.
:histerical:
You mean aside from (BTW, you do realize, don't you, that the only original source for a "Christ" is the Bible, right? Pontius Pilate's letters and the letters from Pliny the younger to emporer tragan and then emperor's tragen's letter in return???
book Chapter and verse please
citation never head that one before.
ow you are just all over the place.
book chapter and verse please.
I make no assumptions which is why I asked for so many citations
Now if you are read..................
The door knocker Christians are always astonished when I ask them for proof there even was "Christ" They point to the bible. I sk them if some character in a sci book existed and they say "of course not" (and I agree). When I point out the equivalence, they blither about how the bible is true but other books are not.
These people are so stupid I worry about them.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 22, 2017, 03:03:57 AM
The door knocker Christians are always astonished when I ask them for proof there even was "Christ" They point to the bible. I sk them if some character in a sci book existed and they say "of course not" (and I agree). When I point out the equivalence, they blither about how the bible is true but other books are not.
These people are so stupid I worry about them.
And you'd be surprised when I provided you with the answer you pretend to seek. then point out your argument went out of atheistic fashion in the early mid 2000's That now the fashionable thing for atheist to do is attack the prophesy of the messiah, where he was from when he would arrive ect. they go down Isaiah and say nope or nut-huh to everything.
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 18, 2017, 12:05:19 PMbecause not all want to live forever.
But for those who do, there goes your all-powerful, all-merciful god. It's
not merciful to let someone who doesn't want to die, die.
QuoteHow could you know what you want unless you experienced both?
Well ... during my first heart attack, I was dead (flat EEG) for a while, so I know what both life and death are like - and I prefer life. Besides, if you die, then decide that you prefer life, how do you get back? (Objective evidence, of course, no "I believe" nonsense or Bible quotes [which is the same thing - you believe, I don't, so it's just your opinion that the bible is correct].)
QuoteThat almost sounds like Heaven...Oh, wait it is!!
Not the one I was in when I was dead.
QuoteThat is what comes after this life smart guy.
As I said, I've been there, you haven't - so I'd rather believe my experience than something you make up.
QuoteOtherwise it would be Hell for those who did not want to live forever.
Which is why an all-merciful god would have designed humans that
could live forever - for those who decided that they wanted to. Unfortunately, your god is, at best, an incapable worker - even though some tortoises can live 300 years, no animal (and man is an animal) can live forever. Run out of telomeres and you die. He didn't think that one out very well.
QuoteMaybe that is why there is a promise of a new heaven and a new earth!
Or just maybe ... it's because the human mind is incapable of contemplating its own non-existence, so primitive people made up stories about an "afterlife" - and mentally primitive people still believe them now, thousands of years later.
QuoteSo says the bible
Evidence, not Bible quotes.
Quotefrigging idiot... Rev 20
Revelation? The ravings of a madman? That's your objective evidence? Wait - I'll quote Tolkein At least LotR claims to be an accurate history. Your Bible? Read Luke 1:1. It claims, right there in the Bible, to be hearsay. ("You've heard it before, but let me give you
my version." Some "source".) Refer to the line I quoted for this response, but apply it to the person it belongs to - the one you see in the mirror.
Quotethe first Jesus will call the 'saved' to live with him for 100 years, then He will call for everyone else. to judgement and then satan for one last skirmish, then new heaven new earth and all the baddies will be sent to Hell.
First 100 years, then 1,000 years.
Sorry, that's just 2 more failed Bible prophecies.
QuoteYou mean aside from (BTW, you do realize, don't you, that the only original source for a "Christ" is the Bible, right?
Wrong. The word "Christus" comes from the Greek, it was noun use of the verbal adjective of khriein "to rub, anoint". It had nothing to do with a "Jesus" who wouldn't be born for centuries.
QuotePontius Pilate's letters
Unknown until the 4th century CE, so who knows who wrote them? Definitely not someone who would have known that Pilate was governor, not procurator. See http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/05/the-fraudulent-letter-of-pontius-pilate.html (See? You're not the only one who knows how to use a browser.)
Quotethe letters from Pliny the younger
Born in 61 CE, so that's hearsay at best.
Quoteow you are just all over the place.
You don't know the history of the myth of Mithra? Or the myth of Osiris? They're just about the same as the myth of Jesus.
QuoteI make no assumptions which is why I asked for so many citations
ALL your assertions are baseless assertions. How can they be anything else? They all start with the assumption that the Bible is true. Since it's not all true, you're doing it backwards, the way all Christians (except the honest ones) do - start with the Bible, ignore anything that contradicts it, and find or make up "proofs" for what it claims.
So where's that objective evidence that I keep asking you for, and that you keep ignoring? All you respond with is "it says so in the Bible", and the only thing the Bible is objective evidence of is that someone, somewhere, wrote it (and we don't even know who or when - "John" may have been written by someone named John, or it may have been written by some of his students, or it may have been just someone who wasn't known but used the name of a known author to lend credence to his tales). Can't you understand a simple English request? (Or are you just admitting that you have no objective evidence for any of your assertions, but are too dishonest to say that you don't?)
Quote from: Drich0150 on July 22, 2017, 09:04:18 AM
And you'd be surprised when I provided you with the answer you pretend to seek.
You've provided
NO objective evidence of Yeshua bar Yosuf being real.
Quotethey go down Isaiah and say nope or nut-huh to everything.
You
do realize that the "savior" Isaiah was referring to was Cyrus, and Isaiah was a history of past events, right? (Oh, I forget, you're Christian, so you accept the Christian interpretation of a Bible Christians had no hand in writing.) Isaiah isn't referring to the future. No actual historian makes that claim any more.
Just to mention that most of the New Testament seems to have been written by people several generations separated from the names they used. That has been common in history. Even the US "founding fathers" often adopted older names to disguise their identities or suggest some authority.
Quote from: SGOS on June 16, 2017, 07:58:54 AM
The clarification is appreciated. My original interpretation of your comment was that Drich serves as a holotype for certain theist visitors, which isn't off the mark either.
That is much as I look at him too. A representative of a group I know all too well.
On the Pilate letters ... the Church is a well known forger of hagiographies. In parts of the Church, it was believed that Pilate converted to Christianity, and was martyred. So in those parts, he is a saint. Part of the Ro-mansplaining that Christians do.
Quote from: Baruch on July 22, 2017, 04:55:03 PMIn parts of the Church, it was believed that Pilate converted to Christianity, and was martyred. So in those parts, he is a saint.
So Pilate, who caused Jesus' death (no one did anything without the consent of the governor) was a saint but, until pretty recently, Jews were reviled for killing Jesus. Christianity - the religion that's only as good as its last rewrite.
Drich says that the people who do not want to live forever will die. What a stupid thing to say. Belief in the Drich god has nothing to do with whether or not someone wants to live forever. So what happens to the billion plus people that never knew about Drich god; I guess they chose to die too. ... and why do you keep saying they all go to hell when the Bible tells us that hell isn't forever (Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire -Gehena)?
Should we all be afraid of all the Egyptian and Greek and Ethiopean gods we never heard of?
Quote from: fencerider on July 22, 2017, 05:22:08 PM
Drich says that the people who do not want to live forever will die. What a stupid thing to say. Belief in the Drich god has nothing to do with whether or not someone wants to live forever. So what happens to the billion plus people that never knew about Drich god; I guess they chose to die too. ... and why do you keep saying they all go to hell when the Bible tells us that hell isn't forever (Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire -Gehena)?
Should we all be afraid of all the Egyptian and Greek and Ethiopean gods we never heard of?
Rev 20:14 is poetic. Death and Hell are demons, not places. Gehenna is a valley near Jerusalem, where the trash and corpses of Gentiles were burned.
Quote from: fencerider on July 22, 2017, 05:22:08 PM
Drich says that the people who do not want to live forever will die. What a stupid thing to say. Belief in the Drich god has nothing to do with whether or not someone wants to live forever. So what happens to the billion plus people that never knew about Drich god; I guess they chose to die too. ... and why do you keep saying they all go to hell when the Bible tells us that hell isn't forever (Rev 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire -Gehena)?
Should we all be afraid of all the Egyptian and Greek and Ethiopean gods we never heard of?
Well, since all deities are equally likely to exist, disobeying any of their rules could a sure way to eternal punishment. Which makes it all pretty trickey. And what if there are 2 of them? You can't possible follow both of their rules unless they are identical and then there would be just that one. But then there is another over in Scandinavia and yet another in India, etc.
So then one says die and come to me and another says there is eternal recycling. A 5th that says kill my enemies. Like a deity couldn't with a wave of its hand? They are all too silly to consider.
What if there was a real deity that was a slice of bread and everyone who ate a sandwich was cursed forever? LOL! What if the deity is a donut hole? You could be cursed for NOT believing in NOTHING. I crack me up sometimes!
Quote from: Cavebear on July 22, 2017, 05:33:46 PM
Well, since all deities are equally likely to exist, disobeying any of their rules could a sure way to eternal punishment. Which makes it all pretty trickey. And what if there are 2 of them? You can't possible follow both of their rules unless they are identical and then there would be just that one. But then there is another over in Scandinavia and yet another in India, etc.
So then one says die and come to me and another says there is eternal recycling. A 5th that says kill my enemies. Like a deity couldn't with a wave of its hand? They are all too silly to consider.
What if there was a real deity that was a slice of bread and everyone who ate a sandwich was cursed forever? LOL! What if the deity is a donut hole? You could be cursed for NOT believing in NOTHING. I crack me up sometimes!
Donut holes sold separately! Obviously the bear headed Egyptian god will favor you. He was never popular, since desert deities don't do well with heavy fur.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 22, 2017, 05:33:46 PM
What if there was a real deity that was a slice of bread and everyone who ate a sandwich was cursed forever? LOL!
I think almost everyone has eaten a slice of bread. That explains why god doesn't show his face around here; except to those that merely offended by eating a piece of bread torn off a bun.
What is the proper way to worship a slice of bread? Do you put strawberry jam on an altar? or grape jelly? or butter?
Quote from: Colanth on July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 PM
So Pilate, who caused Jesus' death (no one did anything without the consent of the governor) was a saint but, until pretty recently, Jews were reviled for killing Jesus. Christianity - the religion that's only as good as its last rewrite.
Interesting question that -- if Pilate had said, "Fuck this, no, he hasn't done anything to deserve the death penalty!", or had Judas said, "no, wait, I'm not doing this", there's no Passion, no crucifixion, no resurrection,
no Christianity.
I once asked a priest why, since without Judas' betrayal there was no crucifixion and therefore no resurrection, Judas wasn't actually doing the will of god.
He mumbled and hemmed and hawed a lot, and fundamentally fell back on 'it's a mystery'.
I didn't go to church on my own initiative after that.
Quote from: trdsf on July 24, 2017, 01:26:04 AM
Interesting question that -- if Pilate had said, "Fuck this, no, he hasn't done anything to deserve the death penalty!", or had Judas said, "no, wait, I'm not doing this", there's no Passion, no crucifixion, no resurrection, no Christianity.
I once asked a priest why, since without Judas' betrayal there was no crucifixion and therefore no resurrection, Judas wasn't actually doing the will of god.
He mumbled and hemmed and hawed a lot, and fundamentally fell back on 'it's a mystery'.
I didn't go to church on my own initiative after that.
Yes, I've thought of that point many, many times.
I made the mistake once of going to see The Passion of Christ with a christian friend/co-worker. I knew at the time it would be a bad idea but for some reason agreed to it. After the movie he had to ask me what I thought. I asked him why Jesus/God was so upset when he prayed to himself in the garden about the his 'passion'. And I asked why Judas was the 'bad guy' when god set it up so that he had to be the bad guy--no choice. (In my view he is the biggest victim in this mess) He did not like those questions and mostly ducked them. Our relationship did take a hit, I'm sorry to say. Never do that again.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 24, 2017, 10:49:53 AM
Yes, I've thought of that point many, many times.
I made the mistake once of going to see The Passion of Christ with a christian friend/co-worker. I knew at the time it would be a bad idea but for some reason agreed to it. After the movie he had to ask me what I thought. I asked him why Jesus/God was so upset when he prayed to himself in the garden about the his 'passion'. And I asked why Judas was the 'bad guy' when god set it up so that he had to be the bad guy--no choice. (In my view he is the biggest victim in this mess) He did not like those questions and mostly ducked them. Our relationship did take a hit, I'm sorry to say. Never do that again.
The Bible even says that the devil entered Judas during their Last Supper. He didn't even have a choice. The devil literally made him do it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 24, 2017, 10:49:53 AM
Yes, I've thought of that point many, many times.
I made the mistake once of going to see The Passion of Christ with a christian friend/co-worker. I knew at the time it would be a bad idea but for some reason agreed to it. After the movie he had to ask me what I thought. I asked him why Jesus/God was so upset when he prayed to himself in the garden about the his 'passion'. And I asked why Judas was the 'bad guy' when god set it up so that he had to be the bad guy--no choice. (In my view he is the biggest victim in this mess) He did not like those questions and mostly ducked them. Our relationship did take a hit, I'm sorry to say. Never do that again.
The seams in the story-line were never ironed out. This happens with poor screen plays too. Like I pointed out ... in the Gospel of Judas, Judas is the good guy. In some forms of Christianity, Pilate is a Christian martyr (afterward). There isn't just one story line prior to Constantine burning the other books.
And yes, traditionally, Jews, not Romans, were blamed ... but then that is what the Romans would have you believe. Even the culpable Jews (Sanhedrin) were quislings of the Romans. Common Jews are generally portrayed as pro-Jesus. So it was a class thing. Also the centurion at the cross is made to say "he was the son of a god". Again, Roman authorities are the bad guys, not the common man. The stuff that happened in Judea in the first century, was a combination civil war, uprising and religious revolution. Think Syria today.
Quote from: fencerider on July 24, 2017, 01:24:26 AM
I think almost everyone has eaten a slice of bread. That explains why god doesn't show his face around here; except to those that merely offended by eating a piece of bread torn off a bun.
What is the proper way to worship a slice of bread? Do you put strawberry jam on an altar? or grape jelly? or butter?
The proper way to worship a slice of bread depends (1st) on the bread (it must be very good and well baked). Then it depends on the matter being applied to the slice of bread. Not just any cheap jam or jelly will do. Nor cheap margarine.
The proper slice of bread should be lightly toasted for firmness and a slight crunch, with something on it to give a flavor to the tongue (and therefore the brain) while also not diminishing the breadness itself.
I have seen philistines (and I know I am using the term incorrectly) slather horrible substances thickly over it. A half inch of cheap grape jelly, and/or a thick layer of creamy peanut butter, and dare I say even Nutella or Vegemite... It numbs the mind with horror!