You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
The best and brightest responses in 3.. 2.. 1....
Ps. can someone help me put my sunflower avatar up
Hi Drich0150!
The main question I have about the God of the Bible is:
What is it about God that makes him worthy of being praised?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
The best and brightest responses in 3.. 2.. 1....
Ps. can someone help me put my sunflower avatar up
Figured out the flower bit myself.
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:08:38 PM
Hi Drich0150!
The main question I have about the God of the Bible is:
What is it about God that makes him worthy of being praised?
For some He is not.
Not all belong to God.
For those that do, belonging to God in of it self is worthy of praise.
Nice flower. Did you know that flowers are the sex organs of some plants?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:11:07 PM
For some He is not.
Not all belong to God.
For those that do, belonging to God in of it self is worthy of praise.
Is that how you're going to answer any question we ask?
If so, why should we ask any? I'd learn more watching a televangelist.
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:11:29 PM
Nice flower. Did you know that flowers are the sex organs of some plants?
Yup, and did you know my 'flower' was as tall as my house and weighed like 6 lbs... maybe that is why I use it as an avatar..
Have you ever actually read the whole Bible, cover to cover?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:17:31 PM
Yup, and did you know my 'flower' was as tall as my house and weighed like 6 lbs...
Well, of course I knew that! How could it have been otherwise?
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:13:04 PM
Is that how you're going to answer any question we ask?
If so, why should we ask any? I'd learn more watching a televangelist.
Again because you want to know the truth..
The truth is not everyone can worship God as they are literal slaves to their sin. They belong to someone else. therefore for them they will have no interest in worshiping God.
For those who belong to God and not sin... This is reason enough to worship God.
Just because my answer does not fit your preconceived outline as to how a cookie cutter Christian should answer, doesn't mean the answer I gave is not truthful.
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:17:57 PM
Have you ever actually read the whole Bible, cover to cover?
Why would anyone read the bible cover to cover???
The bible is a series of books and letters, compiled by subject matter first and not necessarily chronologically arranged. I have read all subject matters concerning the bible at least once. other matters I've spent some time with others.
"Don't speak to me about your religion;
first show it to me in how you treat other people.
Don't tell me how much you love your God;
show me in how much you love all God's children.
Don't preach to me your passion for your faith;
teach me through your compassion for your neighbors.
In the end, I'm not as interested in what you have to tell or sell as I am in how you choose to live and give."
Cary Booker
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:26:49 PM
Why would anyone read the bible cover to cover???
The bible is a series of books and letters, compiled by subject matter first and not necessarily chronologically arranged. I have read all subject matters concerning the bible at least once. other matters I've spent some time with others.
Well, isn't that special!?
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:18:59 PM
Well, of course I knew that! How could it have been otherwise?
good thing you asked that question... I've been to other message boards and not once in like 6 or 7 years did anyone ask the question you asked... I've like waiting so long to use that line.. I even practice typing over and over, but after 1000s and 1000s of posts I gave up hope. then boom! Validation!!!
Thanks Un-beave
Hey, I live but to serve...
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:29:07 PM
"Don't speak to me about your religion;
first show it to me in how you treat other people.
Don't tell me how much you love your God;
show me in how much you love all God's children.
Don't preach to me your passion for your faith;
teach me through your compassion for your neighbors.
In the end, I'm not as interested in what you have to tell or sell as I am in how you choose to live and give."
Cary Booker
Quote
Those who rarely think for themselves tend to have to quote others to do their thinking and speaking for them.
~Drich0150
Before you get too butt hurt know I am simply challenging you to Use your words I don't care what "care-ie" has to say unless I can speak with her and challenge her with her own mindset. You are before me tell me what you think.
Ok, you asked for it.
Why would I believe that you're at all qualified to answer any question I may have concerning the Bible and the God it portrays?
Nah I'm good
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
The best and brightest responses in 3.. 2.. 1....
Ps. can someone help me put my sunflower avatar up
Welcome to the board. But I don't have any misconceptions concerning the god of the bible. But, apparently, you do.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
nah....2000 years peeps been putting forth all kinds of bullshit. Pretty sure you have nothing new.
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 15, 2017, 05:40:45 PM
Ok, you asked for it.
Why would I believe that you're at all qualified to answer any question I may have concerning the Bible and the God it portrays?
As I point out in my sig, 1thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is good. This does not mean just to question the questionable but also question the foundational.
If you seek the truth I am just but another avenue to look down for it. All I ask is you give me the time to ask an honest question and see if I can't give you an answer that changes something. If you do not seek the truth there is nothing I can say that will be good enough.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 15, 2017, 05:45:29 PM
Welcome to the board. But I don't have any misconceptions concerning the god of the bible. But, apparently, you do.
If you like I can help you with your little paradox... The fact that you see a paradox in what Epicurus wrote is a misconception of the very nature of God.
Quote from: aitm on June 15, 2017, 05:49:10 PM
nah....2000 years peeps been putting forth all kinds of bullshit. Pretty sure you have nothing new.
we shall see, if the mods will allow it.
You heard wrong.
Still: Welcome to the .com. I know you're on the .org.
Welcome to our little band of heathens.
I have no questions regarding christianity at this point.
Circling the drain on page one.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:22:30 PM
Again because you want to know the truth..
The truth is not everyone can worship God as they are literal slaves to their sin. They belong to someone else. therefore for them they will have no interest in worshiping God.
For those who belong to God and not sin... This is reason enough to worship God.
Just because my answer does not fit your preconceived outline as to how a cookie cutter Christian should answer, doesn't mean the answer I gave is not truthful.
Actually, the problem is you fit EXACTLY the cookie cutter outline for how Christians respond to questions.
God is worthy of worship because he's God? Well, I say I'm worthy of all of the money in your bank account because I'm Blackleaf. Cash or checks only, please.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:51:45 PM
If you like I can help you with your little paradox... The fact that you see a paradox in what Epicurus wrote is a misconception of the very nature of God.
I don't see a paradox. What you want to peddle here is 'Truth', which does not exist. And you think you know the nature of god. And you probably do know the nature of 'your' god, since god(s) are different for everybody who believes in them. But there really is no nature of god, since god is a fiction. So, I might as well try selling the nature of Bugs Bunny to you. Both god and Bugs Bunny are fictions. Its just that the those who believe in Bugs Bunny are less destructive than those who believe in the nature of their god(s).
But sure, point out the error of my thoughts and bring me unto the light.
Come in. Come in.
Lead these angry atheists to the light. Perhaps you can succeed where others have failed, but you will need a new gimmick if you want to save these festering souls. We've seen the shtick many times, and remain unimpressed. Oh wait. You aren't doing this for us. You are just doing it so you can tell your friends you have walked among the thieves and liars like a lamb in the den of lions. And yet your faith remains strong and everlasting. Tell your friends how you resisted the will of the fornicators as they tried to destroy your faith.
Or you can save some time. If you leave right now, we will give you a note telling your friends that we were all impressed with your knowledge of God, and cowered under his might. As an extra incentive, we also issue valuable coupons that you can trade for extra points when you arrive at the gates of Heaven, but only if you act quickly. This is a one time offer.
Hello.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:49:51 PM
If you seek the truth I am just but another avenue to look down for it. All I ask is you give me the time to ask an honest question and see if I can't give you an answer that changes something. If you do not seek the truth there is nothing I can say that will be good enough.
Okay, but if you were well-versed in the bible, then asking you would be more time-efficient than asking someone who is not well-versed. If you are mistaken, or if you lie, then that is destructive to the purpose of seeking truth, and if you don't know and honestly answer that you don't know, then we have gained nothing at the cost of some time.
So, again, are you qualified to answer? Be honest, and direct. You'll get much better treatment if you are. We don't like slippery little toads, so don't be one.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
The best and brightest responses in 3.. 2.. 1....
Ps. can someone help me put my sunflower avatar up
Jesus F. Christ no, why would you think that? Hell, you probably don't even I know his middle name. I gave you the first letter, have a guess....
Hello Dirch.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:22:30 PM
Again because you want to know the truth..
The truth is not everyone can worship God as they are literal slaves to their sin. They belong to someone else. therefore for them they will have no interest in worshiping God.
For those who belong to God and not sin... This is reason enough to worship God.
Just because my answer does not fit your preconceived outline as to how a cookie cutter Christian should answer, doesn't mean the answer I gave is not truthful.
It is a sin to claim you know, if you do not. Everyone belongs to G-d, just not everyone belongs to Jesus. Or are you a polytheist like most Christians?
Quote from: hrdlr110 on June 15, 2017, 10:42:24 PM
Jesus F. Christ no, why would you think that? Hell, you probably don't even I know his middle name. I gave you the first letter, have a guess....
Fernando!
No, that is Jesus H. Christ.
(haploid)
Quote from: pr126 on June 16, 2017, 01:36:10 AM
No, that is Jesus H. Christ.
(haploid)
No, it's 'Jesus Fucking Christ' when I hit my thumb with a hammer.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
The best and brightest responses in 3.. 2.. 1....
Ps. can someone help me put my sunflower avatar up
Found a forum you haven't been banned from, I see.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 15, 2017, 07:17:58 PM
I don't see a paradox.
which is your misconception I offered to clear up.
In your sig you sign out with the Epicurean Paradox. this is also know as 'the problem with evil'
that is what I offered to resolve with proper understanding of the God of the bible.
I have a complete and total understanding of the Bible. The problem is that this understanding is meaningless, as the god of the Bible does not exist. I would much prefer to talk about Star Wars: equally fictitious, but far more interesting.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
which is your misconception I offered to clear up.
In your sig you sign out with the Epicurean Paradox. this is also know as 'the problem with evil'
that is what I offered to resolve with proper understanding of the God of the bible.
Resolution ... idealists have it all wrong, per Book of Job ... G-d is a real monster.
Quote from: SGOS on June 15, 2017, 08:31:02 PM
Come in. Come in.
moo, hahaha I mean thank you.
Quote
Lead these angry atheists to the light.
I'm simply trying to educate the difference between the light and dark. So that yu may make an informed decision. Many of you think you know what's what, but truly you've just memorized what amount to campaign slogans from either side of the argument.
Quote
Perhaps you can succeed where others have failed,
there is no success or failure here, only q&a. Your ultimate decision is between you and God. I just don't want you to make one by doing nothing/default because you thought one thing and God is holding you to a different standard all together.
Quote
but you will need a new gimmick
Actually I will be using the one paul/Christ used, but is has been so long you will not recognize it, and think me a troll.
Quote
if you want to save these festering souls.
again not here to save anyone persay.. here just so you can have a sot of fully understanding what God has revealed scripturally to us in a real world application/way.
Quote
We've seen the shtick many times, and remain unimpressed.
time will tell.
QuoteOh wait. You aren't doing this for us. You are just doing it so you can tell your friends you have walked among the thieves and liars like a lamb in the den of lions.
I've been doing this (answering atheists) for a long long time now. So long it has consumed me and has become my ministry/church/100% of my time with God. So you are somewhat right I am not doing this for you. God along long time again gave me a great gift, that is to have all my questions answered, concerning Him the bible ect.. and for the most part I ran out of questions a long time ago. So I sought atheist questions. once we went through them I saw a pattern, especially of exchristian now atheists, all of which centered on the proud assumption that their version of God was the only one, and when God let it fail, their faiths failed because they simply did not understand.
I was the same way, but again in my seeking the truth no matter if it lead me back to God I found myself standing before Him in judgement. My one regrets was not knowing any better. So I, since then (in my second chance) spend my time offering to educate or pass on my experiences so that again you don't find yourself n the same place I did. This mission has taken all of my former church duties and even regular attendance off the table. as this use to be a 6 or 7 day a week up to 8 hour aday effort when you consider all of the study and reading involved. So in short no it is not for you it is my work for God. Those left in my life that know I do this, real real could give two squirts about any of you. No one except my AF.org buddies knows I am now on AF.com
QuoteAnd yet your faith remains strong and everlasting. Tell your friends how you resisted the will of the fornicators as they tried to destroy your faith.
it's true, but not really a thing/no one cares.
Quote
Or you can save some time. If you leave right now, we will give you a note telling your friends that we were all impressed with your knowledge of God, and cowered under his might. As an extra incentive, we also issue valuable coupons that you can trade for extra points when you arrive at the gates of Heaven, but only if you act quickly. This is a one time offer.
Maybe ask some of the AF.org guys about me before you judge me too quickly.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 15, 2017, 10:58:27 PM
Hello Dirch.
hello popeye! I see you are a man of great importance here..
hope you tell the other bosses that I am not a bad guy, and can be a source of fun and entertainment
Quote from: Baruch on June 15, 2017, 11:12:04 PM
It is a sin to claim you know, if you do not. Everyone belongs to G-d, just not everyone belongs to Jesus. Or are you a polytheist like most Christians?
It is a sin to claim you know, when you know you don't know. If you know or your understanding is just incomplete then it is not a sin to teach or tell what you know.
I believe the God is a title and not a name.
As in God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
three beings/deity one God.
like one government over the united states 3 branches of government
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
which is your misconception I offered to clear up.
In your sig you sign out with the Epicurean Paradox. this is also know as 'the problem with evil'
that is what I offered to resolve with proper understanding of the God of the bible.
Why not start at rock bottom. Like offering some definitions for key words like 'sin'. The 'bible'. God. Truth. What are those in your eyes?
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 16, 2017, 12:12:04 PM
I have a complete and total understanding of the Bible. The problem is that this understanding is meaningless, as the god of the Bible does not exist. I would much prefer to talk about Star Wars: equally fictitious, but far more interesting.
Ok then who is the chosen one? You know the one the Jedi prophesy said would bring balance to the force?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 16, 2017, 01:39:44 PM
Why not start at rock bottom. Like offering some definitions for key words like 'sin'. The 'bible'. God. Truth. What are those in your eyes?
Sin anything not permitted by the expressed will/law of God.
Evil is the desire to commit or remain in sin
Free will is an ancient greek construct and not a biblical doctrine. The bible says the oppsite in fact. (we are slaves who have been given a choice.)
The Bible represents or is defined as a closed cannon series of books and letters concerning God and his ultimate plan of salvation and where this earth is going..
God is the alpha and omega the beginning and end to all things. meaning he is the ultimate authority on everything spanning creation.
God is also a title and not a specific deity name. as in:
God the Father God the Son and God the Holy SPirit.
Three deity one God.
Truth is the state of being true.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
hello popeye! I see you are a man of great importance here..
hope you tell the other bosses that I am not a bad guy, and can be a source of fun and entertainment
He's too polite to say that you're full of shit on a good day.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 16, 2017, 02:19:32 PM
He's too polite to say that you're full of shit on a good day.
Pop's and I have simply been around the block a few times hard and can respect each other.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 01:49:50 PM
Ok then who is the chosen one? You know the one the Jedi prophesy said would bring balance to the force?
The prophecy was misread. As I understand it, the balance was made between two exceptional Jedi, not one. One chose the path of the Dark Side while the other chose the path of the Light. The "balance" was a sort of pendulum swing.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
which is your misconception I offered to clear up.
In your sig you sign out with the Epicurean Paradox. this is also know as 'the problem with evil'
that is what I offered to resolve with proper understanding of the God of the bible.
You're here to offer us a theodicy?
:evil:
"Truth is the state of being true." - as in good character? Or in terms of facts vs fiction?
True is the path an arrow takes if it's shot accurately.
As a caring loving human, I could never "worship" a god that demands babies be killed and little girls be raped....but far more than that..I give no fucks for a piece of shit that would worship said piece of shit god or its opinion of said piece of shit.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
which is your misconception I offered to clear up.
In your sig you sign out with the Epicurean Paradox. this is also know as 'the problem with evil'
that is what I offered to resolve with proper understanding of the God of the bible.
I don't have any misconception on this issue. You misconceive my misconception. Since both your god and your bible are fictions, it is had to have misconceptions about them. You god is your creator and thus the creator of evil; the only thing with that power--to create anything. You, my friend, are misconceived.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 01:56:28 PM
Sin anything not permitted by the expressed will/law of God.
Evil is the desire to commit or remain in sin
Free will is an ancient greek construct and not a biblical doctrine. The bible says the oppsite in fact. (we are slaves who have been given a choice.)
The Bible represents or is defined as a closed cannon series of books and letters concerning God and his ultimate plan of salvation and where this earth is going..
God is the alpha and omega the beginning and end to all things. meaning he is the ultimate authority on everything spanning creation.
God is also a title and not a specific deity name. as in:
God the Father God the Son and God the Holy SPirit.
Three deity one God.
Truth is the state of being true.
Who gets to decide all these as definitions? You? Just because you make a pronouncement about what a sin is, does not make it so. How do you know that sin even exists? As far as I'm concerned you have only piggy-backed on other theists. And they had no proof of any of their claims, either. A belief is not proof. Sincere faith is not proof of anything. Your god is a fiction; there is simply no physical or empirical evidence to support the an actual god of any kind.
Unfortunately all religion that isn't based on direct experience (of a sort) with deity, is second hand, or authoritarianism.
Until you have an uncanny encounter like Peter, as it says in the Latin "Quo vadis, Domine?"
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 01:56:28 PM
Sin anything not permitted by the expressed will/law of God.
Evil is the desire to commit or remain in sin
Free will is an ancient greek construct and not a biblical doctrine. The bible says the oppsite in fact. (we are slaves who have been given a choice.)
The Bible represents or is defined as a closed cannon series of books and letters concerning God and his ultimate plan of salvation and where this earth is going..
God is the alpha and omega the beginning and end to all things. meaning he is the ultimate authority on everything spanning creation.
God is also a title and not a specific deity name. as in:
God the Father God the Son and God the Holy SPirit.
Three deity one God.
Truth is the state of being true.
I could offer others…
Sin is the failure to obey a bemused human religious leader’s commands.
Evil is sinning (see above)
Free will is the actions of individuals with brains (not everyone, apparently, has one).
The Bible was written by people who lived long after the events they wrote about and without evidence of any sort. I will even add that much of the bible is taken from the myths of older cultures, sometimes hilariously badly.
God is the conception of superstitious and easily frightened nomadic peoples . The prehistoric peoples had gods in every tree river and field, the ancient villagers had fewer with some duties, the more modern peoples have few or one. Next step is none. One fewer each time.
Physics does well enough for the creation of our current universe.
If “God†is a title, should that be “Mr Godâ€, “Ms God†or “Itâ€? And BTW, you can refer to me as “Supreme Commanderâ€. SC for short; I don’t mind…
Where is “God The Daughter�
Ah the Trinity. The Tripartite Committee of the paranoid’s fears.
Truth IS the state of being true. As Short IS the state of being short. Be still, my beating heart!
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 16, 2017, 12:43:17 PM
hello popeye! I see you are a man of great importance here..
hope you tell the other bosses that I am not a bad guy, and can be a source of fun and entertainment
I already went to bat for you, Dirch. Try to make me proud.
FYI here is the rule you are at risk of running afoul of.
Quote3. Proselytizing (attempts to convert people to a religion/belief system by means of preaching) is allowed as long as intelligent discourse follows, and as long as it is not spam. Repeatedly posting verses from your favourite holy book as “evidence†of your favourite deity is not considered intelligent discourse and can result in thread locking and, eventually, a ban. Please note that most members here are former believers and we’ve all heard the usual pro-religion arguments (Kalaam, Pascal’s wager, irreducible complexity, etc.) hundreds of times. If you want to convince us, please at least try to come out with something original.
Assertions that you understand the Bible and we don't doesn't meet our intelligent discourse standard without an explanation of why you understand it better than we do. You know you're right doesn't really cut it either. Continuing to assert the same thing over and over is spam. I'd like to see you stick around because I think we could use a few more dissenting opinions, but you need to pay heed to rule number 3. If you think you are going to have a problem with that I suggest you avoid the subject and contribute to the community in other ways.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 16, 2017, 07:16:41 PM
Who gets to decide all these as definitions? You?
Bible teach/God
Quote
Just because you make a pronouncement about what a sin is, does not make it so.
Kind does, if we are speaking contextually concerning the God of the bible, the bible itself or Christianity or even Judaism described in the bible. Outside of that parameter you can make u what ever definition you like. If however 'we' are talking about the bible that is the definition we will be using.
QuoteHow do you know that sin even exists?
Sin is not a noun if that is what you are asking. However sin is indeed a quantifiable 'moral' precept as it can be defined, and applied to all human behavior. as such sin exists.
Quote
As far as I'm concerned you have only piggy-backed on other theists. [/quotes] and examples lease.
QuoteAnd they had no proof of any of their claims, either.
maybe you just do not understand how 'proof' works or maybe you are just not able to identify it.. For example can you describe what type of 'proof you are looking for?' can you give me a set of defining parameters so that I may satify your definition of the word 'proof'. If you can't provide any parameters then how will you know if I can provide proof or not? meaning if you can't identify proof how will you recognize it when it is presented?
QuoteA belief is not proof.
no belief supports proof. if you want proof just take a step back and examine what it is I believe and why.
QuoteSincere faith is not proof of anything.
not much on faith either. thankfully God has a plan for people who are of little faith.
QuoteYour god is a fiction; there is simply no physical or empirical evidence to support the an actual god of any kind.
actually I think you just described your experience with God...
My experience was quite different.
Euthyphro Dilemma: Is what is moral commanded by God because is it moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God? In other words, are good and evil objective standards that God happens aligns himself with, or are good and evil defined by God alone?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
Bible teach/GodKind does, if we are speaking contextually concerning the God of the bible, the bible itself or Christianity or even Judaism described in the bible. Outside of that parameter you can make u what ever definition you like. If however 'we' are talking about the bible that is the definition we will be using.
Sin is not a noun if that is what you are asking. However sin is indeed a quantifiable 'moral' precept as it can be defined, and applied to all human behavior. as such sin exists. maybe you just do not understand how 'proof' works or maybe you are just not able to identify it.. For example can you describe what type of 'proof you are looking for?' can you give me a set of defining parameters so that I may satify your definition of the word 'proof'. If you can't provide any parameters then how will you know if I can provide proof or not? meaning if you can't identify proof how will you recognize it when it is presented?
no belief supports proof. if you want proof just take a step back and examine what it is I believe and why.
not much on faith either. thankfully God has a plan for people who are of little faith.
actually I think you just described your experience with God...
My experience was quite different.
A few quick notes. I have not had experience with god, since god is like Bugs Bunny. I have not had experience with him, either. As far as that goes, you have not had experience with god--just your belief that god must exist and therefore does exist. God is still a fiction. And you cannot prove otherwise--nobody can.
I have experience with G-d, but it isn't a god you would like. I don't have to prove what I ate for lunch ... I just eat it and move on.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 18, 2017, 08:39:05 AM
I could offer others…
you could but they would conflict scripturally.
The definitions I offered do not conflict anywhere in scripture and there fore give you the simpliest and cleanest definition possible.
Quote
Sin is the failure to obey a bemused human religious leader’s commands.
Not every sin is a broken command. For example Christ said if you have hate in your heart is is the same as breaking the command that says you shall not murder.
Hate is a sin, akin to murder yet we do not have a command that says thou shalt not hate, better yet hating someone you are guilty or breaking a sin as bad as murder, yet to simply hate does not mean you have to hurt or even lay a finger on anyone.
That is why I Identified sin being anything not in the expressed will or Law of God. The law covers everything you mentioned, the expressed will means unless God said it is ok then it is not. That would make everyone a sinner all the time even the saved.
Quote
Evil is sinning (see above)
Here
s the thing though... All evil is sin, but not all sin is evil. Which is why I gave my defnation evil is a desire or actions that to sin or remain in sin.
For example to steal to eat is a sin as stealing no matter what is breaking the law of God. However to steal the eat is not an evil act.
Quote
Free will is the actions of individuals with brains (not everyone, apparently, has one).
again free will is an ancient greek philosophy and has nothing to do with scripture.
Quote
The Bible was written by people who lived long after the events they wrote about and without evidence of any sort.
Actually you can say that about certain parts of the bible not as a whole. We have a better understanding of the bible than any other document of the first century.
Quote
I will even add that much of the bible is taken from the myths of older cultures, sometimes hilariously badly.
then please provide a valid example.
Quote
God is the conception of superstitious and easily frightened nomadic peoples .
which God?
QuoteThe prehistoric peoples had gods in every tree river and field, the ancient villagers had fewer with some duties, the more modern peoples have few or one. Next step is none. One fewer each time.
thanks for sharing.
Quote
Physics does well enough for the creation of our current universe.
really?? then why doesn't it jive both on a macro and micro scale? why don't the same laws apply on subatomic particles as they would on a galactic planetary scale?
Quote
If “God†is a title, should that be “Mr Godâ€, “Ms God†or “Itâ€? And BTW, you can refer to me as “Supreme Commanderâ€. SC for short; I don’t mind…
...bother...
Do you say "Mr." Doctor? or Ms. Doctor??? how about Mr. Judge or Mrs. Justice? Mr astronaut? did quite think things through huh?
Quote
Where is “God The Daughter�
the bible does not say there is one.
Quote
Ah the Trinity. The Tripartite Committee of the paranoid’s fears.
Truth IS the state of being true. As Short IS the state of being short. Be still, my beating heart!
As a simpleton's question I can only give a simple answer. Again my efforts here are about being accurate. I can't dress up an answer just because it may seem overtly simple to you.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on June 19, 2017, 10:44:41 AM
I already went to bat for you, Dirch. Try to make me proud.
FYI here is the rule you are at risk of running afoul of.
Assertions that you understand the Bible and we don't doesn't meet our intelligent discourse standard without an explanation of why you understand it better than we do. You know you're right doesn't really cut it either. Continuing to assert the same thing over and over is spam. I'd like to see you stick around because I think we could use a few more dissenting opinions, but you need to pay heed to rule number 3. If you think you are going to have a problem with that I suggest you avoid the subject and contribute to the community in other ways.
No I get it, but here's the thing. If the community asks a question the ends at the bible then I must end at the bible. if they want to know why or go deeper they must follow up with another question. Otherwise I'm the one being baited to provide answers to questions they know will get me in trouble. If I provide anything else without follow up questions then I will be guilty of abandoning my beliefs.
I'll may an effort to expand the discussion which will take us past the bible answers..
But in sort I hope these mods can see when you asked a bible based question then the end is a bible based answer that is not prostoltizing.
That would be no different than having a star trek discussion and referencing a book or a different movie or series to answer the star trek based question. as it is remaining faithful to star trek cannon. So if a person asks a cannon based question what else am I supposed to do?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
No I get it, but here's the thing. If the community asks a question the ends at the bible then I must end at the bible. if they want to know why or go deeper they must follow up with another question. Otherwise I'm the one being baited to provide answers to questions they know will get me in trouble. If I provide anything else without follow up questions then I will be guilty of abandoning my beliefs.
I'll may an effort to expand the discussion which will take us past the bible answers..
But in sort I hope these mods can see when you asked a bible based question then the end is a bible based answer that is not prostoltizing.
That would be no different than having a star trek discussion and referencing a book or a different movie or series to answer the star trek based question. as it is remaining faithful to star trek cannon. So if a person asks a cannon based question what else am I supposed to do?
There's a difference between talking with someone and talking at someone. For many who come here, having a conversation is not an interest to them. They just want to tell us what to think, without really engaging. As long as you engage in back and forth discussion, you should be safe from being banned. Answering questions is not against the rules.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2017, 12:40:22 PM
Euthyphro Dilemma: Is what is moral commanded by God because is it moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God? In other words, are good and evil objective standards that God happens aligns himself with, or are good and evil defined by God alone?
If morality was a standard that determined or would superceed God's authority then "morality" would be more powerful than God.
Rather I say the oppsite Morality is the oppsite of an absolute or righteous standard. It is a standard that allows for the sins we have accepted as a society.
Where God says it is always wrong to steal 'morality' says it is ok to steal to feed you starving children.
God's standard has nothing to do with 'morality.' God lives by and expects perfect righteousness./adhearance to His law.
Which he knows is impossible and in the end does not judge us by morality or righteousness. Meaning after Christ morality is not a scale God uses to judge the righteous and neither is His law. In the end we are free from the law of God Free from the judgement of all 'morality.' The only question in the end was Jesus 'moral' was Jesus righteous, as we are not judged by our deeds but his.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2017, 02:20:30 PM
There's a difference between talking with someone and talking at someone.
which is why I go line by line and answer each indivisual question or point.
Quote
For many who come here, having a conversation is not an interest to them.
but you can't argue the flip side either. while they may enjoy the convo they may hate any resistance or opposition, and move to strike rather than allow the disruption.. I'm sure many of you have felt this sting in a Christian site. for SOME atheist sites opposition is also strictly censored.
QuoteThey just want to tell us what to think, without really engaging.
here's the thing with me, ask pops.. I will engage as deep as you want to go. we have doctors lawyers and all sorts armature/professional philosophers on that other site and I always meet everyone on their own level of engagement. if they want to use bad language and name call I can to some extent do that. if you want to quote and load up on reference material all you need to is ask or do the same and I will literally read and go line by line that way if you wist (I don't do youtube videos or info dumps like skeptics' annodated bible for example, out side of pointing you to the SAB answered.) However I am willing to match work and effort for work and effort and have done for the past 5 or 6 years at the other site. To the point where I shut down the religious sections.
NONE of it due to proselytizing. I simply have always put the work in. and what I say makes sense (over time.) I am the real deal no BS Real world Real life Christian. one who has found God and can tap a wealth of information and resources because of it. I TRUTH don't care to convert anyone. not my thing. My thing is truth and the need to share it no matter how crazy it may sound.
As long as you engage in back and forth discussion, you should be safe from being banned. Answering questions is not against the rules.
[/quote]
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 02:23:35 PM
If morality was a standard that determined or would superceed God's authority then "morality" would be more powerful than God.
Rather I say the oppsite Morality is the oppsite of an absolute or righteous standard. It is a standard that allows for the sins we have accepted as a society.
Where God says it is always wrong to steal 'morality' says it is ok to steal to feed you starving children.
God's standard has nothing to do with 'morality.' God lives by and expects perfect righteousness./adhearance to His law.
Which he knows is impossible and in the end does not judge us by morality or righteousness. Meaning after Christ morality is not a scale God uses to judge the righteous and neither is His law. In the end we are free from the law of God Free from the judgement of all 'morality.' The only question in the end was Jesus 'moral' was Jesus righteous, as we are not judged by our deeds but his.
So you're saying that good and evil are defined by God, because nothing can have authority over God. But here's the problem with that. If "good" and "evil" are whatever God defines them as, then those words are meaningless. Christians like to say that "God is good." But what does that mean? That God fits his own definition of goodness? Why should that be impressive? Also, if good and evil are defined by God, then God can tell you to do anything and it will automatically be good. He can tell you to rape and kill and innocent woman, and because God commanded it, it would become good.
Right now, you may be thinking the same thing many respond with, "But God is good, so he would never ask me to do something that is evil." And if so, you'd be proving my point. If God would never command you to murder because murder is evil, then morality transcends God. It is not something that he can arbitrarily define. He must adhere to morality himself if he is to be good and just. If God can make something good just by saying it's good, then when you say that God is "good," all you're really saying is that he's consistent with himself.
And if you read the Bible, you will find that God does frequently change his definitions of right and wrong. At one point, he'll declare that working on the Sabbath Day is evil, and that those who do so should be stoned to death. Then later, God says that it is fine to work on the Sabbath Day when it is done out of necessity. So even to say that God is consistent is giving him too much credit.
I find it it funny how Christians often claim that morality cannot exist without God. They'll say that without God, atheists cannot say murder is evil, because atheists do not believe in objective morality. Yet the Bible is full of examples of God ordering people to do things that modern society sees as evil, including the murder of innocent men, women, and children, making lifetime slaves out of their "enemies" without provocation, and more.
Morality should not be based on some "moral absolutes." Each situation should be assessed individually. Even Jesus said this, as pointed out earlier:
"There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD." (Leviticus 23:3; also included in the Ten Commandments)
This is a moral absolute. One which Jesus said may be broken, when the circumstances provided a need:
"He said to them, 'If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?'" (Matthew 12:11)
So even according to the Bible, the idea of moral absolutes, as defined by God, is stupid.
G-d's judgement (Biblical) is a pretty simply mechanism. You can't change the past, it is eternal (unchanging). Once something has happened, it slips into the past. This gives G-d a carte blanche ... if it happened (say WW II) then G-d must have at least allowed it, if not encouraged it. And if G-d allows it, then it must be OK, even if less than ideal. G-d certainly at least allows the less than idea ... aka free will. This is why you can't confess and repent, after you are dead. But I find this notion of G-d in history ... completely unacceptable. Understandable yes, acceptable no way.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2017, 03:40:20 PM
So even according to the Bible, the idea of moral absolutes, as defined by God, is stupid.
But that is the problem. If a deity says something is good and right; it IS. You can't argue with a deity. So when a deity says that person is a witch and must be tortured to death, you do it. If the deity says it wants a sacrificial child, you do it. Its the deity!
I'm being sarcastic of course, but that is how true theists think. You do what the acknowledged representatives of the deity TELL you to do. There isn't an option unless you want to be tortured in Hell forever. They really think that.
I read something interesting in Scientific American (May 2017).
The Duke of Brunswick in Germany invited two Jesuit scholars to oversee the Inquisition's use of torture to extract information from accused witches. "The Inquisitors are doing their duty. They are arresting only people who have been implicated by the confession of other witches", the Jesuits reported.
The Duke was skeptical. Suspecting that people will say anything to stop the pain, he invited the Jesuits to join him at the local dungeon to witness a woman being stretched on the rack.
I'll shorten the story... The duke told the woman the 2 people with him were warlocks and demanded the rack be tightened. She immediately accused the two Jesuits of heinous acts. They were thus "implicated by the confession of a witch".
The Duke then turned to the two Jesuits and said "Shall I put you to the torture until you confess"?
One of the Jesuits wrote a book which helped end the witch hunts. But it was the skeptical Duke who forced the issue.
The Jesuits were just fine committing torture as long as it didn't involve them. They suddenly doubted the decrees of their deity when reality intruded.
All theists are like that. They will commit untold horror on others until it applies to them and then reality comes to their minds. There is nothing they will not to to others in the name of their particular deity until it applies to them.
And I state firmly that such a view applies to all theisms.
Today we mostly apply this to civic religion (patriotism). People go down based on extracted or imagined confessions, or fake evidence, from Commies. We must burn the Commies. Of course the Commies did the same thing to Capitalists ... spawn of Satan that they are.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 19, 2017, 02:23:35 PM
If morality was a standard that determined or would superceed God's authority then "morality" would be more powerful than God.
Rather I say the oppsite Morality is the oppsite of an absolute or righteous standard. It is a standard that allows for the sins we have accepted as a society.
Where God says it is always wrong to steal 'morality' says it is ok to steal to feed you starving children.
God's standard has nothing to do with 'morality.' God lives by and expects perfect righteousness./adhearance to His law.
Which he knows is impossible and in the end does not judge us by morality or righteousness. Meaning after Christ morality is not a scale God uses to judge the righteous and neither is His law. In the end we are free from the law of God Free from the judgement of all 'morality.' The only question in the end was Jesus 'moral' was Jesus righteous, as we are not judged by our deeds but his.
Well, Jesus wasn't as nice as he's hyped up to be:
15 Things Christ said that weren't Nice (http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/15-things-christ-said-werent-nice)
Jeebus ain't a blond blue-eyed gentile Baptist from Little Rock, now aren't he?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:05:27 PM
You may have, or clear up any misconceptions you may have concerning the God of the bible!
The best and brightest responses in 3.. 2.. 1....
Ps. can someone help me put my sunflower avatar up
ONLY prayer can put up a sunflower avatar. It's completely beyond the power of mere mortal human beings.
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 20, 2017, 04:59:12 PM
Well, Jesus wasn't as nice as he's hyped up to be:
15 Things Christ said that weren't Nice (http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/15-things-christ-said-werent-nice)
Yeah, but even if Christ really was a rotten bastard, all you gotta do to go to heaven is say the magic words. So sure! You're a mass murderer, a thief, a rapist ,an adulterer or any other type of horrific criminal.. Just mutter those few magic words and *DING!* you're saved and on your way to everlasting life and salvation to kiss the feet of the big spooky forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever
and ever and ever and ever and ever ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and.......It's almost as good as a never ending bowl of Lucky Charms..magically delicious 😋 but not quite.
Sorry, I forgot my magic words so I messed up the 'and evers'.
Surely I'm doomed.
DOOMED, I say!
:arghh:
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 19, 2017, 03:40:20 PM
So you're saying that good and evil are defined by God, because nothing can have authority over God. But here's the problem with that. If "good" and "evil" are whatever God defines them as, then those words are meaningless.
actually not meaningless, just not open to interpretation or discussion. God set the standard where He wills it... kinda a perk in being the alpha and omega.
QuoteChristians like to say that "God is good." But what does that mean?
That whatever God is... is the definition of Good.
QuoteThat God fits his own definition of goodness?
actually the opposite God is the alpha and omega therefore goodness fits the definition of him.
Quote
Why should that be impressive?
Why should it be impressive at all? why cant that just be a fact?
QuoteAlso, if good and evil are defined by God, then God can tell you to do anything and it will automatically be good.
indeed.
QuoteHe can tell you to rape and kill and innocent woman, and because God commanded it, it would become good.
and it was once true.
minus the innocent part.. well no i take that back, they were probably virgins.
QuoteRight now, you may be thinking the same thing many respond with, "But God is good, so he would never ask me to do something that is evil."
Bwahahaha! nuupe I've long ago turn and embraced that God at some point has his people break every single command. What does this mean? good and evil are not subject to man's morality. two different standards.
QuoteAnd if so, you'd be proving my point. If God would never command you to murder because murder is evil, then morality transcends God
indeed. Unless you understand the definition of murder... Murder is the unsanctioned taking of life. If God sanctions the taking of life then it is no longer murder is it?
QuoteIt is not something that he can arbitrarily define.
look above... kinda did. well not arbitrarily erratically, but with the use of authority.
QuoteHe must adhere to morality himself if he is to be good and just.
that's the thing being the alpha and omega you don't. that is why I said good and evil has nothing to do with man's morality. and everything to do with what i deem righteousness or God's righteousness. God's righteousness is not a standard that God must follow but rather a standard that is set by the expressed will of God. Can God tell you to rape and murder He has. how is this ok, and not ok if I were to do it myself/on my own? consequences God knows and set them. If God sanctioned you to kill little Adoph at 7 would you do it if God told you the world would be a far greater place? and He listed off 100 different things that would make the world better would you kill little Adolph? would it then be murder if God sanctioned it? what if it saved 50 million people by killing this one kid?
Ok, what if God told you to rape some woman, the reason being she wants nothing to do wth you, but your off spring provides the world with a savior/hero or it literally saves a whole race of people without changing their whole genetic profile. Kinda how pandas are inseminated when they won't procreate. again, God knows the consenquences of your actions and how they will butter fly effect the time line in accordance to his ultimate will.
QuoteIf God can make something good just by saying it's good, then when you say that God is "good," all you're really saying is that he's consistent with himself.
wow you think on a very micro level, almost like on a 2D level when God is using Good/Evil to develop a 4D world. Your little morality play doesn't even work in your own pop culture. God kill say 100 kids for making fun of one of his guys hair cut, and pop culture has killed 1/2 a billion babies simply because the mother chose not to have them for a million trival and maybe 2 good reason. Say it is never ok to rape a woman but the culture breeds little girls to be sexual objects. and this all on your 2D level meaning with no ide what all of this does to our future.
God does it know exactly what will be effected and He is wrong... where is the logic in that?
Quote
And if you read the Bible, you will find that God does frequently change his definitions of right and wrong. At one point, he'll declare that working on the Sabbath Day is evil, and that those who do so should be stoned to death. Then later, God says that it is fine to work on the Sabbath Day when it is done out of necessity. So even to say that God is consistent is giving him too much credit.
Actually no.. The working on the sabbath is evil was a Pharisaical interpretation of the law, what Christ said and did was with in the actual law of God. meaning the pharasees added to the law God gave to tighten what couldn't be done. God never decreed this religious expansion.
My example is far superior t this, in that God has required the breaking of all of his commandments at one point or another.
Quote
I find it it funny how Christians often claim that morality cannot exist without God.
The mean righteousness, as morality is a joke man is playing on himself. in that man's mrality is the system of good and evil that incorperates the sin man is willing to over look. while Righteousness is God's standard no matter what that is.
QuoteThey'll say that without God, atheists cannot say murder is evil, because atheists do not believe in objective morality. Yet the Bible is full of examples of God ordering people to do things that modern society sees as evil, including the murder of innocent men, women, and children, making lifetime slaves out of their "enemies" without provocation, and more.
So me the murder of anyone innocent.
QuoteMorality should not be based on some "moral absolutes." Each situation should be assessed individually. Even Jesus said this, as pointed out earlier:
"There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the LORD." (Leviticus 23:3; also included in the Ten Commandments)
This is a moral absolute. One which Jesus said may be broken, when the circumstances provided a need:
"He said to them, 'If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?'" (Matthew 12:11)
So even according to the Bible, the idea of moral absolutes, as defined by God, is stupid.
what? where ? i have no idea what this is about.. it seems like to me you are trying to stand on both sides of the street.
"That whatever God is... is the definition of Good."
Tell that to Qoholeth or to Job ;-) Now there is real scripture ... that and the Epistle of James!
Excuse me, I need to go study Aramaic while I eat supper, then get ready for Shabbat service tonight. Hope you have a great weekend too.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 15, 2017, 05:49:51 PM
As I point out in my sig, 1thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is good. This does not mean just to question the questionable but also question the foundational.
If you seek the truth I am just but another avenue to look down for it. All I ask is you give me the time to ask an honest question and see if I can't give you an answer that changes something. If you do not seek the truth there is nothing I can say that will be good enough.
Those who rarely think for themselves tend to have to quote others to do their thinking and speaking for them.
Quote from: Sylar on June 30, 2017, 06:29:41 PM
Those who rarely think for themselves tend to have to quote others to do their thinking and speaking for them.
Yeah, drich! What he said!
First of all where did this god you talk about/quote/refer to come from? And don't bother with telling me he/it/she/they just are/were. I will reject any reference or any suggestion that entity exists outside our ken. Anything that may have created the universe must have some sort of per-existance. And you have no idea from where.
Now prove the god you talk about actually exists. As nearly as I can tell you believe in some sort of god because the bible tells you he/she/it/they exist. But that confuses me since we are to believe in god because the bible tells us so and we know that he (for short) is/was the ultimate author of said bible, the perfect circular argument.
I am a little more than skeptical of that argument.
I am going to make a categorical statement here: MAN MADE GOD IN MANS IMAGE not the other way around.
Quoting the bible or trying to interpret it to prove/explain your thesis will only fall upon deaf ears (or blind eyes as it were). If you cannot show empirical evidence of/for the existence of this god you are trying to get us to believe in then don't even respond to this post, well, except for your understanding of where this god came from.
I wonder where Drich heard we were looking for new Christians to help answer any questions. I don't remember placing that ad! atim? Wolfie? Anyone?
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 01, 2017, 09:02:04 PM
I wonder where Drich heard we were looking for new Christians to help answer any questions. I don't remember placing that ad! atim? Wolfie? Anyone?
I've wondered the same. He looks to me he is simply earning some brownie points from his fellow travelers. I don't know why he thinks his 'style' will convert any atheist. Or hell, even most theists would look at him, shake their heads, and leave.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 01, 2017, 09:02:04 PM
I wonder where Drich heard we were looking for new Christians to help answer any questions. I don't remember placing that ad! atim? Wolfie? Anyone?
1. Party crashers usually believe their presence has some sort of justification.
2. He believes his idiosyncratic beliefs make him interesting and unique.
3. The last party he crashed, he thought he could just take off his pants and be a hit, but that didn't work.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 01, 2017, 09:02:04 PM
I wonder where Drich heard we were looking for new Christians to help answer any questions. I don't remember placing that ad! atim? Wolfie? Anyone?
I told you guys to make sure randy's dungeon is locked.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on July 02, 2017, 07:39:45 AM
I told you guys to make sure randy's dungeon is locked.
They sure are mirror images, but their particular style and reasoning is just Orthodox Christian. I think Randy was a better speller.
I'm pretty sure I never asked for any theist to help me understand anything. In fact, if one DID explain anything I hadn't considered already, I would be somewhat sure I would disagree. Its not that I don't like new ideas but theists (almost by definition) don't have any.
Belief systems are mostly rooted in the past, trying to explain (inaccurately) how nomadic peoples adjusted to farming civilizations. That they still exist in developed industrial/technological societies is simply astonishing to me.