did he do it to stop the Russian investigation? Did he do it to cover action by Jeff Sessions?
Didn't even know a president could do that.
FBI is under DOJ, so the director works for Sessions. I'll go ask my friend, Google, about it.
Ah, here it is:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-james-comey-fired/story?id=47309009
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 09, 2017, 06:21:05 PM
FBI is under DOJ, so the director works for Sessions. I'll go ask my friend, Google, about it.
Ah, here it is:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fbi-director-james-comey-fired/story?id=47309009
Trump had to fire Flynn for lying to Pence. FBI had to circle their wagons, to explain Comey spin in his testimony today. That and burn paper records. FBI still the same shit hole it was under J Edgar. I would be happy if they fired every appointed official in government who has ever been proven to lie. D party folks like Comey in spite of ... just because he was appointed by St Obama. Comey mishandled both ends of the Clinton email probe. Hillary should probe him ...
The FBI director works for the president as far as I know. This is simply drump being drump. He does not give one shit about what is legal or ethical or traditional. He just wants to do what he wants to do and will do exactly that as long as he is allowed to do so. My feeling is that this is just a storm in a teapot. Howling and screaming and gnashing of teeth--but drump will get his way. This has been his history and will not stop now.
This is a surprise to me. Comey did make some highly questionable decisions that appeared to be poorly thought out. Certainly, some that came back to embarrass him. Although, I've seen guys survive that were worse. Was he on to something? Or did he reach his level of incompetence? Whether the next guy is any better is a coin toss considering the talent pool in Washington.
Quote from: SGOS on May 09, 2017, 10:37:15 PM
This is a surprise to me. Comey did make some highly questionable decisions that appeared to be poorly thought out. Certainly, some that came back to embarrass him. Although, I've seen guys survive that were worse. Was he on to something? Or did he reach his level of incompetence? Whether the next guy is any better is a coin toss considering the talent pool in Washington.
A sane reaction. I work with the government. Like any bureaucracy, the nomenklatura always rise to their level of incompetence, though J Edgar went well beyond that ... as did Allen Dulles ... that is why they had to conspire to kill Jack. In general, they should fire the top layer of permanent government employees every 2 years ... what is good for the House is good for the bureaucracy.
Comey was a political operative, just like his prior JD bosses going back 2 or more administrations. They aren't law enforcement, they are crooks. Just ask John Mitchell.
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THE APPRENTICE EXTREME
This reminds me of Watergate. A president under investigation fires the investigator.
Although, when Nixon did it, he was already understood to be guilty. I might be wrong about that. It's so long ago, that I might not be remembering the correct timeline, or I may have recognized guilt prematurely. I remember the Nixon firing as a blatant attempt on Nixon's part to hide his involvement in the Watergate break in.
Trump's involvement with Russia is not yet clear. But there are only two reasons I can think of that explain the firing: 1. Trump had colluded with Russia to throw the election and was about to be exposed, or 2. Comey had been acting incompetently.
But where is the list of Comey's incompetency's that would justify his firing?
well he did cost Hillary a big chunk of votes. (Hillary was saying all summer that she already turned over all the emails. Then one week before the election he said he found thousands of emails that he didn't see before. That sent the message that Hillary was lying) I thought that Trump should be happy that Comey helped put him over the top.
Quote from: fencerider on May 10, 2017, 11:15:03 AM
well he did cost Hillary a big chunk of votes. (Hillary was saying all summer that she already turned over all the emails. Then one week before the election he said he found thousands of emails that he didn't see before. That sent the message that Hillary was lying) I thought that Trump should be happy that Comey helped put him over the top.
That certainly helped Trump, and he capitalized on it by making it part of his campaign, but he seems to take a different view now that he can no longer share with Hillary any questions about presidential integrity. As far as Comey's competence, he should have investigated Hillary, being that's his job. As to whether he should have made public the discovery of the Weiner emails, I'm undecided. There was a lot of focus on that being unprecedented during the campaign. Perhaps precedence means something or not. I'm not sure that it was wrong. Nor am I sure it was right, especially since he exaggerated the number of actual emails that pertained to Hillary, and the whole thing turned out to be a red herring. Given it raised questions about Hillary's integrity, and did so without foundation, he should have learned more before making his announcement IMO. The FBI is not bound to prematurely release information about any of its investigations, and most of it is all done secretly, so I question his motive. At best I would consider his decision done in a rush while being pushed by Hillary detractors in his own office. I think it was the wrong call. But I don't see that it has anything to do with Trump's current motives, other than to be a distraction. The Hillary issue, which is no longer relevant shouldn't even enter into the current musings, although it's on my mind. You can't unsee what you have seen, and I'm guessing that's distracting everyone else to some degree also.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_buSQzV0AAsRMb.jpg)
Quote from: SGOS on May 10, 2017, 08:06:03 AM
This reminds me of Watergate. A president under investigation fires the investigator.
Although, when Nixon did it, he was already understood to be guilty. I might be wrong about that. It's so long ago, that I might not be remembering the correct timeline, or I may have recognized guilt prematurely. I remember the Nixon firing as a blatant attempt on Nixon's part to hide his involvement in the Watergate break in.
Trump's involvement with Russia is not yet clear. But there are only two reasons I can think of that explain the firing: 1. Trump had colluded with Russia to throw the election and was about to be exposed, or 2. Comey had been acting incompetently.
But where is the list of Comey's incompetency's that would justify his firing?
Really? Incompetent or just following AG direction? Dems committed fraud, RICO, mishandling of government documents (they don't have to be classified) ... but then all the Dem leaders would have to be sent to Guantanamo for special interrogation. We know the AG folks are corrupt back to John Mitchell and before. The deputy FBI director back then admitted to being Deep Throat. Bernstein admitted to being CIA. Circumstantial evidence that the Bush family was out to get Nixon for not making George H W the VP in stead of Agnew. But the actual event was the firing of the Special Prosecutor. Nixon should have shown the tapes burning in the Rose Garden. If the Dems didn't like that, he should have had a military coup (it was wartime). Like how Bill Clinton should have fired the guy selected by the Rethuglicans to investigate Arkansas and other doings ... Mr Starr et al. Right now there is no special prosecutor, though of course the Dems are calling for one. And Nixon, had he known, should have fired the top 10 guys at the FBI before they went after him.
Sorry trdsf ... it is Democrats (see 1861) who commit treason. Too bad Lincoln didn't kill them all? Nixon is looking better every day now. Nixon started peace talks with China and the Soviets, and completed a peace with Vietnam ... total treason, right?
the AG is known as a racist and a bigot. He was also part of Trump's campaign and conveniently forgot that he talked to a Russian ambassador. It is suspicious that an individual who may be investigated by the FBI looking into the Russian connection would recommend that Trump fire the person in charge of the investigation. The fact that Trump fired someone that is conducting an investigation against him shows he has something to hide.
What is publically known hasnt risen to the level of treason ( still a long way from finding that out); not that its nessecary to find treason to make criminal charges or to impeach him.
If Trump has nothing to hide, he should stop putting road blocks in the way of the investigation. He must be really stupid if he thinks that any thing he does will stop the investigation. Oh wait we already knew he is stupid
They are just trying to cover loose ends. The guy will have a handsome retire package from Drumf probably.
Quote from: fencerider on May 10, 2017, 05:31:47 PM
the AG is known as a racist and a bigot. He was also part of Trump's campaign and conveniently forgot that he talked to a Russian ambassador. It is suspicious that an individual who may be investigated by the FBI looking into the Russian connection would recommend that Trump fire the person in charge of the investigation. The fact that Trump fired someone that is conducting an investigation against him shows he has something to hide.
What is publically known hasnt risen to the level of treason ( still a long way from finding that out); not that its nessecary to find treason to make criminal charges or to impeach him.
If Trump has nothing to hide, he should stop putting road blocks in the way of the investigation. He must be really stupid if he thinks that any thing he does will stop the investigation. Oh wait we already knew he is stupid
If all Republicans are Nixon, then all Democrats are LBJ. We have regressed to the 60s, for those who weren't alive back then, this is what it was like ... warmongering D and R on both sides of the aisle.
All politicians have something to hide. Don't like it? Move to a monarchy. I would waterboard the whole Congress, and SCOTUS. For fun. Since when are Russians the enemy? Democrats are far more dangerous to me locally ... even though I am not a Republican.
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 10, 2017, 06:27:04 PM
They are just trying to cover loose ends. The guy will have a handsome retire package from Drumf probably.
He'll probably become a lobbyist...
QuoteIf all Republicans are Nixon, then all Democrats are LBJ.
So... the Democrats are the one's with morals, fighting for right, and generally good people who can get shit done while the Republicans are spineless, crime committing douchebags with not an ounce of integrity?
Well, got half of that right at least.
I heard today Trump just held a presser with the Russian press and banned the US press.. if true this fuck needs to be tossed out of office ASAP, but the GOP ALWAYS puts party above country and nothing we do other than to vote will change any of that.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 10, 2017, 10:36:19 PM
So... the Democrats are the one's with morals, fighting for right, and generally good people who can get shit done while the Republicans are spineless, crime committing douchebags with not an ounce of integrity?
Well, got half of that right at least.
The Democrats of the past 20 years proved to me that I was wrong to ever vote for them, and that Nixon was right. That was a hell of a betrayal of principles. You just can't get the smell of the plantation out of them. But it is an improvement over 1860 ... slavery is for everyone now, not just African-Americans. And the Clintons aren't criminals? This is why I stopped voting at all for awhile ... there are no good Americans to vote for, because there are no good Americans. Feel like a Jew ... in 1920s Germany. The Germans in the 1920s didn't realize they were going to Hell ... neither do the Americans realize that today.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on May 10, 2017, 10:41:08 PM
I heard today Trump just held a presser with the Russian press and banned the US press.. if true this fuck needs to be tossed out of office ASAP, but the GOP ALWAYS puts party above country and nothing we do other than to vote will change any of that.
Arrest all the Democrats, deport them to Canada? Or just padded cells, for TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome).
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on May 10, 2017, 10:41:08 PM
I heard today Trump just held a presser with the Russian press and banned the US press.. if true this fuck needs to be tossed out of office ASAP, but the GOP ALWAYS puts party above country and nothing we do other than to vote will change any of that.
There's no 'if' about it: he did bar American press but allow Russian press (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/white-house-donald-trump-sergey-lavrov-meeting-us-press-barred-comey-russia-state-media-tass-a7729611.html).
Oh, and now the White House is pissed off at the Russians for posting pictures from the meeting (http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/oval-office-photos-donald-trump-russians/index.html). Well, what the hell did they expect they were taking pictures for, a scrapbooking project?
Of course, had Hillary been president and sacked Comey, the Repugs would already be forming the impeachment committee. Fucking hypocrites.
WTF?? Allegedly, the Trump administration didn't know Sergey Lavrov's photographer also worked for Russian state news. So, not malicious, just incompetent. Rest easy, America.
well if Trump turns off American reporting, we'll just have to start watching BBC. We will not be denied our entertainment
Quote from: fencerider on May 11, 2017, 12:30:36 PM
well if Trump turns off American reporting, we'll just have to start watching BBC. We will not be denied our entertainment
I always rely on the BBC ... the American media is both dishonest and juvenile. But I wouldn't rely on the BBC when reporting about Great Britain. I would maybe consider Al Jazira for that ;-)
Spicey may be out soon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMG_5GIJSgk
(https://queerty-prodweb.s3.amazonaws.com/2017/05/Screen-Shot-2017-05-11-at-9.53.06-AM.png)
That's...real? That can't be real.
The words "can't be real" no longer apply to our world...
The Washington Post apparently was the source (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/05/10/as-trump-fired-comey-his-staff-scrambled-to-explain-why/?utm_term=.ebcf3f464c85) for this and they issued a correction:
QuoteSpicer huddled with his staff among bushes near television sets on the White House grounds, not "in the bushes," as the story originally stated.
Whew, that's a relief!
So, he "disappeared into the shadows, huddling with his staff near a clump of bushes and then
behind near a tall hedge" and apparently unable to answer basic questions about the circumstances surrounding Comey's firing.
QuoteWas Sessions involved? “That's something you should ask the Department of Justice,†Spicer said.
Was Rosenstein's probe part of a larger review of the FBI? “That's, again, a question that you should ask the Department of Justice,†he said.
Did the president discuss Rosenstein's findings with Rosenstein? “No, I don't believe, I don't know how that sequence went â€" I don't know,†he said.
What was the president's role? “Again, I have to get back to you on the tick-tock,†he said.
When's the last time Trump and Comey spoke? “Uh, I don't know. I don't know. There's some â€" I don't know. I don't know,†he said.
What were the three occasions on which the president says Comey assured him that he was not under investigation? “I don't â€" we can follow â€" I can try, yeah,†he said.
How long did the president deliberate? “I don't, I don't ... I can look at the tick-tock. I know that he was presented with that today. I'm not sure what time,†he said.
Why wasn't Comey given the news in a personal phone call? “I think we delivered it by hand and by email and that was â€" and I get it, but you asked me a question and that's the answer,†he said.
Did Comey's testimony last week â€" which contained inaccuracies â€" influence the decision? “You'd have to ask the Department of Justice. They're the ones that made the recommendation,†he said.
The liberal media attack dogs tried to make him sweat, but instead he came off smelling like roses. "I don't, I don't...I can look at the tick-tock" Killing it! *fist pump*
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 11, 2017, 05:31:14 PM
That's...real? That can't be real.
Spicer is the son of the next door neighbor to Tim the Toolman ... that photo is proof ... I can only see the top half of his head ;-)
Once the billionaires start their man hunts on their private islands ... the reporters will be the one's hiding in the bushes.
(https://img.haikudeck.com/mg/53473ED4-3137-4F57-B24E-CFDD13169EF9.jpg)
I guess if you want to work for Trump you're gonna have to kiss his ass before you get to the interview... and maybe again when you're leaving.
Distraction rules the day. Healthcare is hated. Son in law is handing out visas to business prospects like Halloween candy. Muslim ban blocked by courts. Russia investigation won't shut up. Yates testifies. Pressure applies. What rules the day is lies... until... "Look over there!!! We fired Jim Comey over questionable reasons!"
Don't be distracted. Stay on target. Vote these fuckers out in 2018.
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 10:47:57 PM
Distraction rules the day. Healthcare is hated. Son in law is handing out visas to business prospects like Halloween candy. Muslim ban blocked by courts. Russia investigation won't shut up. Yates testifies. Pressure applies. What rules the day is lies... until... "Look over there!!! We fired Jim Comey over questionable reasons!"
Don't be distracted. Stay on target. Vote these fuckers out in 2018.
I agree with you in all you stated. Lies do rule. As for voting these fuckers out in 2018------pipe dream. Won't happen. This country is just so stupid that I think we will have drump for the next 8 years.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 11, 2017, 11:09:14 PM
I agree with you in all you stated. Lies do rule. As for voting these fuckers out in 2018------pipe dream. Won't happen. This country is just so stupid that I think we will have drump for the next 8 years.
The slick bastards are nothing if not smart. AHCA should be their Achilles heel but it won't be, because most of the changes do not take effect until after 2018, 2020 - meaning after elections. (Note I'm assuming AHCA is largely same as first bill, as I haven't reviewed second bill yet).
But if history is a guide, the country tends to swing like a pendulum, and vast majority of the time in the midterms the party which lost the presidential elections gains majority in one of the Chambers at least.
There are some signs of hope - Dem Congressmen taking over GOP townhalls where representatives do not show. Energized base as seen during marches is one. But let's be real: We are up against gerrymandered electoral districts and will be facing some of the most strenuous voter suppression measures we've ever seen.
We will see in 2018, I suppose. It's just around the corner. I do try to remind people that voting in state elections is just as important (Dems are fucked there because of low turnouts), considering redistricting will occur in 2020 after the census.
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 11:30:43 PM
The slick bastards are nothing if not smart. AHCA should be their Achilles heel but it won't be, because most of the changes do not take effect until after 2018, 2020 - meaning after elections. (Note I'm assuming AHCA is largely same as first bill, as I haven't reviewed second bill yet).
But if history is a guide, the country tends to swing like a pendulum, and vast majority of the time in the midterms the party which lost the presidential elections gains majority in one of the Chambers at least.
There are some signs of hope - Dem Congressmen taking over GOP townhalls where representatives do not show. Energized base as seen during marches is one. But let's be real: We are up against gerrymandered electoral districts and will be facing some of the most strenuous voter suppression measures we've ever seen.
We will see in 2018, I suppose. It's just around the corner. I do try to remind people that voting in state elections is just as important (Dems are fucked there because of low turnouts), considering redistricting will occur in 2020 after the census.
I do have hope for 2018--but I don't think it has much reality behind it.
Quote from: fencerider on May 11, 2017, 09:52:11 PM
I guess if you want to work for Trump you're gonna have to kiss his ass before you get to the interview... and maybe again when you're leaving.
If you enter service as a political flunky, helps to be a Mongolian contortionist, who can kiss their own ass. Then kissing the bosses ass is trivial. Never met a boss whose ass it wasn't wise to kiss ... the worst sadist? You ask him to hit you, he says no.
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 10:47:57 PM
Distraction rules the day. Healthcare is hated. Son in law is handing out visas to business prospects like Halloween candy. Muslim ban blocked by courts. Russia investigation won't shut up. Yates testifies. Pressure applies. What rules the day is lies... until... "Look over there!!! We fired Jim Comey over questionable reasons!"
Don't be distracted. Stay on target. Vote these fuckers out in 2018.
Always vote out incumbents ... Trump is an incumbent now ;-)
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 11, 2017, 06:59:22 PM
(https://img.haikudeck.com/mg/53473ED4-3137-4F57-B24E-CFDD13169EF9.jpg)
The girl that made sleeping in that bed worthwhile .. is missing from the photo?
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 11:30:43 PM
The slick bastards are nothing if not smart. AHCA should be their Achilles heel but it won't be, because most of the changes do not take effect until after 2018, 2020 - meaning after elections. (Note I'm assuming AHCA is largely same as first bill, as I haven't reviewed second bill yet).
But if history is a guide, the country tends to swing like a pendulum, and vast majority of the time in the midterms the party which lost the presidential elections gains majority in one of the Chambers at least.
There are some signs of hope - Dem Congressmen taking over GOP townhalls where representatives do not show. Energized base as seen during marches is one. But let's be real: We are up against gerrymandered electoral districts and will be facing some of the most strenuous voter suppression measures we've ever seen.
We will see in 2018, I suppose. It's just around the corner. I do try to remind people that voting in state elections is just as important (Dems are fucked there because of low turnouts), considering redistricting will occur in 2020 after the census.
Distraction all the way down. No real changes, except putting lipstick on a pig. ACA is a Republican plan. They always seek tax cuts. So the gambit was ... getting the other Republicans to go along with a crapification of ACA (it was crap to begin with) by offering them tax cuts. Both sides are holding out for a better deal. If the Bernie Bros fail .. expect Hillary to run in 2020 ... or Chelsea. The monarchy party will have it way, left hand or right hand. That and JEB is waiting in the wings if Trump stumbles.
I doubt we will see Hillary again. Two attempts and two losses, does not speak well for her electability. But who knows? Politics is strange.
QuoteTrump suggests there may be ‘tapes’ of his private conversations with former FBI director
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/05/12/trump-suggests-there-may-be-tapes-of-his-private-conversations-with-former-fbi-director/?utm_term=.8475b91af329
This is the strangest presidency I can remember. It's a regular shit-fest of mudslinging, threats, and wild outbreaks of half baked remarks, and we are only a few months in. Every day there is a headline about the latest strange thing Trump says, with the media trying desperately to make some sense out of it, and it seems like it's getting more frequent. I'm wondering if this will run its course or get worse. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Trump demands a total blackout of the press with all "facts" having to be personally approved by Trump himself before they can be officially recorded.
There is a tape of LBJ talking to J Edgar, right after the assassination. Makes them both look innocent. Why just this tape out of thousands of hours that could have been taped, and weren't? They were covering for each other, both were guilty of treason. So yea ... Trump vs Comey tapes ... that will be genuine ... not!
Quote from: SGOS on May 12, 2017, 09:39:01 AM
I doubt we will see Hillary again. Two attempts and two losses, does not speak well for her electability. But who knows? Politics is strange.
The "I'M With Her" core will vote for her, even if she is dead and mummified, like Mao and Lenin.
Maybe there should be a law that requires a balanced budget and if there is a shortfall the money comes out of Congress paychecks first... ya right expecting Congress to write laws for itself is like expecting police to give each other speeding tickets.
If Hillary can run a mummified campaign, the republicans might get inspired to dig up Reagan and give him another go.
In the past I would have said this wouldn't lead to impeachment. After Clinton, the revenge impeachment, the two parties came to an understanding. "You don't impeach me, I don't impeach you." That's why, in 2007, Pelosi declared impeachment off the table.
Trump is the exception. The Republicans didn't want him and don't like him. The Democrats are starting to believe their own heated rhetoric about him. It may be the case that the Republicans will allow impeachment against a Republican simply because it is Trump, even if the grounds are shaky.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 12, 2017, 11:37:31 PMThe Republicans didn't want him and don't like him.
Could've (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/top-republicans-lend-trump-crucial-support/526122/) fooled me (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/05/comey_s_gone_and_the_gop_doesn_t_care_is_there_anything_trump_could_do_to.html). By and large, they have either gotten on their knees to praise Dear Leader or ignored the stench whenever he soils himself.
Knowing they can't publicly oppose him isn't the same as wanting him to be their standard bearer. They know their job is to grit their teeth, accept that he is their guy, pretend to like him, and wait for it to be over. The exact same advice they give to rape victims.
Ah, okay. They openly support him but secretly oppose him. In fact, it's so secret that there's scant evidence of it.
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/square/000/022/488/c6bf9b08586c241b021dd04c204b7a85.png)
I really don't get why everything has to be conspiracy, rather than just admit politicians can be as fucking stupid as the next guy. They're regular (rich) people, not characters in book with super plot lines and diabolical mustachios.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 13, 2017, 01:39:37 AM
I really don't get why everything has to be conspiracy, rather than just admit politicians can be as fucking stupid as the next guy. They're regular (rich) people, not characters in book with super plot lines and diabolical mustachios.
Good, then lets kill them for being stupid, instead of mendacious. Most people don't recognize the word "mendacious", but even most Americans recognize the word "stupid". "stupid" should be reason enough for execution of authorities who, like LBJ, kill a million Vietnamese for no reason.
I would contend that Comey is stupid, so is President Trump. Execute both of them as enemies of the State, in Dallas. Long Live CIA!
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 13, 2017, 12:06:05 AM
Ah, okay. They openly support him but secretly oppose him. In fact, it's so secret that there's scant evidence of it.
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/square/000/022/488/c6bf9b08586c241b021dd04c204b7a85.png)
I wrote that they don't like it, not that they secretly oppose him. They give him the required minimum amount of support and don't like it while doing it.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 13, 2017, 10:40:11 AM
I wrote that they don't like it, not that they secretly oppose him. They give him the required minimum amount of support and don't like it while doing it.
I cry that the RINOs are unhappy ... that and the DINOs are unhappy. May they burn in Hell.
At least one person understands what I'm writing.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 13, 2017, 12:21:41 PM
At least one person understands what I'm writing.
Understanding isn't the same as approval ... but it doesn't exclude that either ;-) The idea that anything psychotic from the French Revolution onward is progressive ... is part of why the last 200+ years are shit. On the other hand, you won't find me defending monarchy and autocracy.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 13, 2017, 10:40:11 AM
I wrote that they don't like it, not that they secretly oppose him. They give him the required minimum amount of support and don't like it while doing it.
Except that's not what they do; many republican figure heads say he isn't going far enough on his really disgusting shit.
Why would republicans not like him? He is literally saying the same thing they have for years, just with more bombast and bravado.
Me thinks you don't know your politicians, or politics, as much as you like to think.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 13, 2017, 04:09:04 PMWhy would republicans not like him? He is literally saying the same thing they have for years, just with more bombast and bravado.
Me thinks you don't know your politicians, or politics, as much as you like to think.
Yeah. It's one of those things I hate about creationists and a lot of people's political ideologies: they make these grand claims and never even think to look up whether or not that's actually the case. The rubber never touches the road. It's ideology first and facts second, if at all.
This sort of thing happens in politics all the time. One pundit or another shoveling out one unsupported assertion after another; never to back up a single goddamn thing they say. You're just supposed to listen and believe. It reminds me of church. And it bugs the hell out of me.
It should be obvious by now that I have no love for Trump. And I would LOVE it if he were despised not only by liberal politicians, but also by conservative politicians. But I can't just take Jason's claim on faith. And based on the actions these people have taken and the statements they have made, the facts simply don't support the conclusion.
Quote from: Baruch on May 13, 2017, 03:20:55 PM
Understanding isn't the same as approval ... but it doesn't exclude that either ;-) The idea that anything psychotic from the French Revolution onward is progressive ... is part of why the last 200+ years are shit. On the other hand, you won't find me defending monarchy and autocracy.
If you aren't defending monarchy and autocracy and you don't like the last 200 years--is the anything you like?????
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 13, 2017, 05:09:14 PM
If you aren't defending monarchy and autocracy and you don't like the last 200 years--is the anything you like?????
Ape men are less to recommend them than you might think. If one nut says the opposite of another nut ... are neither right, or both right? You might be close if you add the two opinions, divide by two, to get the average ;-)
Quote from: Shiranu on May 13, 2017, 04:09:04 PM
Except that's not what they do; many republican figure heads say he isn't going far enough on his really disgusting shit.
Why would republicans not like him? He is literally saying the same thing they have for years, just with more bombast and bravado.
Me thinks you don't know your politicians, or politics, as much as you like to think.
You know, instead of everyone focusing on the first sentence about how the Republicans don't like him, perhaps people should focus on the second sentence. The Democrats are starting to believe their own heated rhetoric about him.
Quote from: Baruch on May 13, 2017, 05:21:41 PM
Ape men are less to recommend them than you might think. If one nut says the opposite of another nut ... are neither right, or both right? You might be close if you add the two opinions, divide by two, to get the average ;-)
You know what you find between a left nut and a right nut.
QuoteYou know, instead of everyone focusing on the first sentence...
"Don't pay attention to where I am wrong."
QuoteThe Democrats are starting to believe their own heated rhetoric about him.
I feel like I am missing something here, because I am imagining a tone where you are saying this isn't a good thing. Democrats should have believed their rhetoric months ago on election day, rather than waiting to learn he really is as shitty as billed.
That is, again, simply based on the tone I am receiving... which is notoriously hard to hear over the interwebs.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 13, 2017, 10:48:47 PM
You know, instead of everyone focusing on the first sentence about how the Republicans don't like him, perhaps people should focus on the second sentence. The Democrats are starting to believe their own heated rhetoric about him.
Both parties are useful fools of the Dark State. Same as it was in the 60s ... same as ever. I can't wait for the SJWs to want to invade Vietnam ... to save the Vietnamese from Communism.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 13, 2017, 10:52:38 PM
You know what you find between a left nut and a right nut.
As long as I am the chief Dick, not that Cheney guy, then I am good with that.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 13, 2017, 11:35:58 PM
"Don't pay attention to where I am wrong."
I feel like I am missing something here, because I am imagining a tone where you are saying this isn't a good thing. Democrats should have believed their rhetoric months ago on election day, rather than waiting to learn he really is as shitty as billed.
That is, again, simply based on the tone I am receiving... which is notoriously hard to hear over the interwebs.
Ds could have had Bernie and won the election hands down. Why not? Because Ds suck CIA dicks. The Clintons are a CIA psyop for over 40 years now.
the Rs been programmed to show up at church so having to show up to vote is a familiar program. the Ds would rather stay home and smoke weed or watch football than show up to vote
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 10:47:57 PM
Distraction rules the day. Healthcare is hated. Son in law is handing out visas to business prospects like Halloween candy. Muslim ban blocked by courts. Russia investigation won't shut up. Yates testifies. Pressure applies. What rules the day is lies... until... "Look over there!!! We fired Jim Comey over questionable reasons!"
Don't be distracted. Stay on target. Vote these fuckers out in 2018.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/db/36/55/db3655bea650cf09bb456d8f041f685e.jpg)
Without fuckers, there would be no people to complain about other people. Seems reductio ad populum to me.
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 10:47:57 PM
Distraction rules the day. Healthcare is hated. Son in law is handing out visas to business prospects like Halloween candy. Muslim ban blocked by courts. Russia investigation won't shut up. Yates testifies. Pressure applies. What rules the day is lies... until... "Look over there!!! We fired Jim Comey over questionable reasons!"
It might be part of Trump's well thought out money making scheme, or maybe it's just the chaos of incompetence. It looks like chaos to me. But as much as I hate politicians as the next guy, sometimes I think their misguided attempts to "do right" by America are nothing more than crass money grabs in camouflage. Clinton was big business. Bush made money for the oil industry. Obama was the Banker's Choice, and Trump will be the Royal Highness of Real State.
Kennedy may have owed his success to the Mafia, probably promised them better times, but then he turned on the Mafia. The Mafia doesn't appreciate that shit, and revenge by impeachment is not their style. I remember a group having a conspiracy theory discussion about the Kennedy assassination. One guy who was a history teacher pointed out that it was not connected to the Mafia, because (and get this), "Even the Warren Commission concluded it was not." Oh Yeah, like the Warren Commission isn't a part of the corrupt system.
The Trump Administration might be the chaos of incompetence. We always have a lot of chaos. Sometimes it's because of incompetence, and sometimes it's part of the plan. Who knows?
This is why Sparta said ... "just say no to Athens". Athens invented the demagogue. They have one in charge now.
Trump or if another alternative would come the presidency,
They don't decide on what they do in their own.
They are absolutely directed. THis is an
inherent quality of being the president of the USA.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on May 16, 2017, 09:04:54 AM
Trump or if another alternative would come the presidency,
They don't decide on what they do in their own.
They are absolutely directed. THis is an
inherent quality of being the president of the USA.
Except for George Washington, nobody could be trusted with that power, not even Lincoln. Most Presidents in history are ... squirrel ... distractions for what Congress is doing.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2017, 01:16:04 PM
Except for George Washington, nobody could be trusted with that power, not even Lincoln. Most Presidents in history are ... squirrel ... distractions for what Congress is doing.
in that case, there is only one candidate for the next president of the US.
(http://tansyrr.com/tansywp/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/squirrel-girl.jpg)
Quote from: Sylar on May 11, 2017, 10:47:57 PM
Distraction rules the day. Healthcare is hated. Son in law is handing out visas to business prospects like Halloween candy. Muslim ban blocked by courts. Russia investigation won't shut up. Yates testifies. Pressure applies. What rules the day is lies... until... "Look over there!!! We fired Jim Comey over questionable reasons!"
Don't be distracted. Stay on target. Vote these fuckers out in 2018.
Yeah, it's all Chump all the time these days. Makes me wonder what the hell else is going on that we're not seeing because of the mass distraction going on in the WH.
I think Trump should re-hire him now, just to further confuse everyone. Imagine all the Democratic leadership suddenly switching sides on him again.
And then a week after that, re-fire him.
Well if Trump did try to suborn the Flynn investigation, then he is self-impeached. Ds get what they want, President Pence ... who has been acting President since mid April. Smart move, Ds.
I could imagine him dragging Pence down with him. Not because of any conspiracy, but because he is honestly that fucking dumb and spiteful.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on May 17, 2017, 06:03:20 AM
I could imagine him dragging Pence down with him. Not because of any conspiracy, but because he is honestly that fucking dumb and spiteful.
I don't know much about Pence, but from what I've heard about him here, he could do a lot of damage. It could be like Nixon being replaced by Spiro Agnew. But they dumped Agnew who was under investigation for getting kickbacks from contractors (not even related to Nixon's Watergate crap), and replaced him with Gerald Ford before Nixon quit. Even Ford was acceptable to the Democrats. Would you want Pence for President?
Quote from: SGOS on May 17, 2017, 07:36:58 AM
Would you want Pence for President?
No. I'd rather have Trump. Trump just wants to make the rich (including himself) richer. Pence wants to make the rich richer by instituting a far fucking right Christian theocracy.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on May 17, 2017, 06:03:20 AM
I could imagine him dragging Pence down with him. Not because of any conspiracy, but because he is honestly that fucking dumb and spiteful.
Comey is that dumb and spiteful. If some part of the Dark State doesn't like what he is doing, he will have nowhere to hide either.
Quote from: SGOS on May 17, 2017, 07:36:58 AM
I don't know much about Pence, but from what I've heard about him here, he could do a lot of damage. It could be like Nixon being replaced by Spiro Agnew. But they dumped Agnew who was under investigation for getting kickbacks from contractors (not even related to Nixon's Watergate crap), and replaced him with Gerald Ford before Nixon quit. Even Ford was acceptable to the Democrats. Would you want Pence for President?
Ford was in on the Warren Commission report ... he knew where to not go.
Quote from: PopeyesPappy on May 17, 2017, 11:00:39 AM
No. I'd rather have Trump. Trump just wants to make the rich (including himself) richer. Pence wants to make the rich richer by instituting a far fucking right Christian theocracy.
Get rid of the stupid clown, replace with the evil clown. Stop clowning around! Pence will be OK, he will kick out the Trump family circus, and bring Cheney and Rove back in ... maybe Rummy for a third go at SecDef.
Maybe he should hire JoaquÃn "El Chapo" Guzmán for the post - he probably knows more about crime than any other person Chump could name!
el Chapo? one more criminal isnt gonna make the gvmn worse, but you're forgetting that Trump doesn't like Mexicans
Well, hiring Guzman would maybe help him with liberal and Hispanic voters?
Even though the President manages the FBI, possible "obstruction of justice" charges can still apply. It depends on the details.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 18, 2017, 02:20:33 AM
Even though the President manages the FBI, possible "obstruction of justice" charges can still apply. It depends on the details.
The FBI has had no proper charter since its founding in 1917, as part of President Wilson's secret police to suppress German-Americans during WW I. Kind of like how the Fed was created a few months before WW I even started, to help finance WW I. It is deep doo-doo all the way down. Comey ultimately can't fill J Edgar's dress size. The US also has to rely on the police state laws enacted since President John Adams. Wonder why such anachronistic laws, which had opponents, have never been repealed?
The RD Party of Mass Distraction ;-) I have seen better from bawling toddlers on the floor having a tantrum in the grocery store.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 17, 2017, 06:30:48 PM
Well, hiring Guzman would maybe help him with liberal and Hispanic voters?
Uninformed liberals, I could see that. Hispanics (at least Mexicans)? Fuck no. At least not the one's that would actually bother to go out and vote. That is exactly the type of person they left their country to get away from.
QuoteWASHINGTON â€" President Trump told Russian officials in the Oval Office this month that firing the F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, had relieved “great pressure†on him, according to a document summarizing the meeting.
“I just fired the head of the F.B.I. He was crazy, a real nut job,†Mr. Trump said, according to the document, which was read to The New York Times by an American official. “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.â€
Mr. Trump added, “I’m not under investigation.â€
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/us/politics/trump-russia-comey.html
“I’m not under investigation.†That's technically true but misleading. The administration in general is under investigation. And a criminal investigation, too.
Also, an important thing to note is that Trump's opinion on individual people largely hinges on whether they're "nice" to him, not the more conventional idea of appraising a person by how they treat people in general. If Kim Jong-Un were an investor in Trump Towers, he'd be a great guy according to Trump. So his assessment of Comey requires a couple oceans' worth of salt.
Trump is a typical pragmatic businessman. He will do business with anyone who has a need for his services or products, and who are willing to dicker with him about it. Politicians are ideologues, completely un-pragmatic. This is why so many of their schemes (Solyndra, ACA) turn into flaming sacks of shit. If Socrates (as quoted in Plato's Republic) is right, then only experts should be allowed to do government. And if the business of America is business, then these need to be businessmen/businesswomen. If the point of government is to enact some Enlightenment BS or French Revolution BS ... then things are as they should be. We have SJW Sans-Cullotes on the one hand, and status-quo Monarchists on the other. A tale of two cities, both Washington DC.
^ The problem is that the business of America isn't all business. The utility function of business is too simple to suit the needs of humans, who live in America and have needs ranging from survival to creature comforts to entertainment to intellectual fulfillment. A single metric of "getting the most money" is not up to the task. That is partially why we have things like the OSHA, SEC, EPA, ACA, Medicare and Medicaid, and a plethora of other social programs and agencies in the first place â€" each and every one of them was spurred on when business failed to deliver on what people find valuable.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on May 21, 2017, 09:00:36 PM
^ The problem is that the business of America isn't all business. The utility function of business is too simple to suit the needs of humans, who live in America and have needs ranging from survival to creature comforts to entertainment to intellectual fulfillment. A single metric of "getting the most money" is not up to the task. That is partially why we have things like the OSHA, SEC, EPA, ACA, Medicare and Medicaid, and a plethora of other social programs and agencies in the first place â€" each and every one of them was spurred on when business failed to deliver on what people find valuable.
I agree, that money doesn't measure happiness ... or the common good. A poor workman blames his tools. Even in ancient Babylon, there were too many people on the dole ... it takes actual work, not financial models, to plant the crops, irrigate the crops, tend the crops, harvest the crops. That is to say, the Main Street Economy is where the rubber hits the road, not with policy and economics. That is what happened when the Soviet Union fell, when the US will fall. We will stop with all the BS, and anyone who doesn't harvest the potatoes, will not eat.
Yes, a poor workman does blame his tools, but poor tools do exist. Thing is, a good workman will recognize that his tools are poor and won't use them in the first place. A poor workman is poor partially because he would use poor tools. On the other hand, a stupid workman uses poor tools and poor workmanship and is convinced that he has produced a good product.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on May 22, 2017, 05:22:28 PM
Yes, a poor workman does blame his tools, but poor tools do exist. Thing is, a good workman will recognize that his tools are poor and won't use them in the first place. A poor workman is poor partially because he would use poor tools. On the other hand, a stupid workman uses poor tools and poor workmanship and is convinced that he has produced a good product.
This is why G-d will get rid of humanity ... poor fools, not poor tools. Ape man infestation.
A master craftsman can make his own tools, or take tools and make them better, not just use tools at a skillful level. Hence the stupidity of "intelligent design". This is why it is wrong to blame your tools. Don't blame the politicians ... blame the voters.
Quote from: Baruch on May 22, 2017, 06:15:30 PM
This is why G-d will get rid of humanity ... poor fools, not poor tools. Ape man infestation.
A master craftsman can make his own tools, or take tools and make them better, not just use tools at a skillful level. Hence the stupidity of "intelligent design".
Seems to me you are saying that god is a poor craftsman. He should, by definition, have the best tools possible. Yet his crowning creation, humanity, is, according to you, fatally flawed? According to you then, god is not skillful even with the best possible tools. Maybe he should consider offing himself for the benefit of the entire universe!
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 22, 2017, 08:07:44 PM
Seems to me you are saying that god is a poor craftsman. He should, by definition, have the best tools possible. Yet his crowning creation, humanity, is, according to you, fatally flawed? According to you then, god is not skillful even with the best possible tools. Maybe he should consider offing himself for the benefit of the entire universe!
Christian irony alert .. maybe Jesus died for G-d's sins?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 22, 2017, 08:07:44 PM
Seems to me you are saying that god is a poor craftsman. He should, by definition, have the best tools possible. Yet his crowning creation, humanity, is, according to you, fatally flawed? According to you then, god is not skillful even with the best possible tools. Maybe he should consider offing himself for the benefit of the entire universe!
Maybe God created the best of all possible worlds? As a pessimist, I fear this to be true...
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 22, 2017, 09:46:02 PM
Maybe God created the best of all possible worlds? As a pessimist, I fear this to be true...
Maybe. But that is so impossibly stupid...........but then, religion.............
If this is the best world that god could create... you almost have to feel sorry for the guy
anybody out there think you can run a government like a business? if you do I got some voodoo economics to sell to you
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on May 22, 2017, 05:22:28 PM
a good workman will recognize that his tools are poor and won't use them in the first place.
not always the first time; but after the first time you use them you should recognize the junk. As a cabinet installer I got a hold of some bad tools. They waste your time and you get paid the same no matter if its a half hour or two hours. Better tools can make the job easier; or the right tool ( using a wood chisel on tile is a stupud thing to do - a tile chisel works much better)
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 22, 2017, 09:46:02 PM
Maybe God created the best of all possible worlds? As a pessimist, I fear this to be true...
G-d created the play-doe and left it to the ape people to shape it. The ape people ate it or shoved it up their asses instead. If you want to put blame ... and take responsibility, look in mirror. Yes, this is the best of all possible worlds, and we will destroy it. Not pessimism, realism.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2017, 12:25:52 AM
Maybe. But that is so impossibly stupid...........but then, religion.............
People who love the world, are like druggies that like their fix.
Quote from: Baruch on May 23, 2017, 06:08:56 AM
G-d created the play-doe and left it to the ape people to shape it. The ape people ate it or shoved it up their asses instead. If you want to put blame ... and take responsibility, look in mirror. Yes, this is the best of all possible worlds, and we will destroy it. Not pessimism, realism.
Which makes your god bullshit. HIS creation all the way around. That makes it his responsibility. He knew what he was creating when he created humans. If he didn't then he has no claim on godship. Neither you nor he can absolve his complete responsibility for all that is in this universe. Time and again you relate to us how much of a bumbling buffoon he is and yet you keep referring to this dumbshit as G_D. Such is fiction though, I guess; you can fashion this jerk in any fashion you desire.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 23, 2017, 11:14:59 AM
Which makes your god bullshit. HIS creation all the way around. That makes it his responsibility. He knew what he was creating when he created humans. If he didn't then he has no claim on godship. Neither you nor he can absolve his complete responsibility for all that is in this universe. Time and again you relate to us how much of a bumbling buffoon he is and yet you keep referring to this dumbshit as G_D. Such is fiction though, I guess; you can fashion this jerk in any fashion you desire.
Only if you believe determinism. Hitler had to do what he did, there is no free will. The human world is as humans make it ... look in the mirror (like I said).
Quote from: Baruch on May 23, 2017, 01:11:21 PM
Only if you believe determinism. Hitler had to do what he did, there is no free will. The human world is as humans make it ... look in the mirror (like I said).
Of course the human world is as humans make it. That's the whole point! Since your god and all others is a fiction, it has no bearing on the real world or the real universe. Of course I don't believe in determinism--and Hitler did what he wanted to do; did not have to do anything. Determinism only works if there is a god. He, and he alone, 'determines how the universe is to be crafted and what each part of it will do--including how much any element can make it's own choice. God would determine the constraints of how much he will determine and the components of the universe will determine on their own.
Hitler was a sick man; spent a lot of time studying paranormal and magic.
When talking to a Bible-thumper who doesnt believe in climate change, etc (cause god would never let humans destroy ourselves or destroy the world), its good to bring up Hitler.... god didnt stop WWI, or WWII, or Hitler or a whole bunch of other things. What makes you think god will keep us from destroying Earth?
I recently read an interesting conspiracy theory.
Comey investigated Clinton because he was ordered to. He cut the investigation short because he wanted to. He reopened the investigation because he was ordered to. He cut the investigation short again because he wanted to. Trump tried to get him to open it again, he refused, so Trump fired him.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 29, 2017, 12:55:24 AM
I recently read an interesting conspiracy theory.
Comey investigated Clinton because he was ordered to. He cut the investigation short because he wanted to. He reopened the investigation because he was ordered to. He cut the investigation short again because he wanted to. Trump tried to get him to open it again, he refused, so Trump fired him.
All politicians are well meaning ... hence Hitler and Stalin are fake news. Also all heads of FBI/MI5 have the public good in mind ;-)
If you were threatened by a prosecutor you could fire, wouldn't you fire him?
Note that I am not justifying the action, just recognizing the standard reactions of a dictator.
He sure is a damn ineffective dictator if he is a dictator.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 31, 2017, 10:47:51 PM
He sure is a damn ineffective dictator if he is a dictator.
Funny how they don't see any signs of tyranny in any President from the D party ;-) Of course the R party are ass-holes. D party folk think they score points by shooting R fish in a barrel. But they smell like bad sushi too.
Reminds me of the old SNL skit, in the early Reagan presidency, where Reagan was a super genius when nobody was looking, but a senile grandfather for the photo-ops. Maybe D folks think Trump has super powers, but is too cagy to show them in public.
Quote from: Baruch on June 01, 2017, 12:06:25 AM
Funny how they don't see any signs of tyranny in any President from the D party ;-)
And you do!? Care to enlighten us as to the tyrannical actions of Democrats?
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 02, 2017, 06:55:33 PM
And you do!? Care to enlighten us as to the tyrannical actions of Democrats?
Obama executed an American teenager without due process (and started more wars than George W) ... because he is the god of Kenya. Kennedy undid the New Deal by lowering the top rate on income tax (hence creating the shit stain we have today) and got us more involved in Vietnam. LBJ was a mass murderer in Vietnam. Jimmy Carter was an agent of the Trilateral Commission (Bilderbergers plus Japan). Bill Clinton killed thousands of children in Iraq thru ineffective sanctions.
Ike was OK, but then he wasn't a politician, he was an actual war hero. At least since 1961, all American Presidents are mass murderers.
Well, yeah, you got me there...
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 02, 2017, 07:20:37 PM
Well, yeah, you got me there...
Murder isn't partisan, it is bi-partisan. And there are lots of ways, short of mass murder, for American Presidents to be junior Hitlers.
Well, is there any difference in mass murder and tyranny?
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 02, 2017, 07:33:13 PM
Well, is there any difference in mass murder and tyranny?
Mass murder is tyranny squared. Cool dictators don't do that ;-) Wage slavery and debt slavery are part of the perpetual tyranny. Chantal slavery (human trafficking) has never stopped ... it just slipped from a tolerated legality to a tolerated illegality. You have never been free, and never will, except in your own delusions. There is no free lunch. It is beyond bi-partisan, it is what humans do. But there is a big difference between Emperor Augustus and Emperor Caligula. I choose Augustus every time ;-)
If there were justice, then the Americans in the 1965-1975 period should have been slaughtered by the Vietnamese super-power .. up to 1 million deaths. What goes around, comes around. The world would be completely different if the communists and the capitalists would be honest, and stop virtue signaling ... just openly be the criminals they are, and not pretend to be virtuous. Let blood drip from the ISIS victim's heads, held up by the Ds and the Rs. That is what Kathy Griffin should have done.
you forgot democratic mass murderer Harry Truman. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan while they were trying to surrender just to show USSR what we could do.
Trump the Tyrant??? haha airhead dumber than Gomer Pile yes, but tyrant?
Quote from: fencerider on June 06, 2017, 12:05:54 AM
you forgot democratic mass murderer Harry Truman. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan while they were trying to surrender just to show USSR what we could do.
Trump the Tyrant??? haha airhead dumber than Gomer Pile yes, but tyrant?
Anyone who doesn't want to get a sex, race, ethnicity, language operation ... is intolerant. We must be maximally intolerant of them. If Trump is unwilling to become a trans-sexed African-American Hispanic surnamed gay Democrat ... he triggers us. Reeeeeeeeeee
Quote from: fencerider on June 06, 2017, 12:05:54 AM
Trump the Tyrant??? haha airhead dumber than Gomer Pile yes, but tyrant?
He certainly is behaving as though he wishes he were one. He clearly has no concept of checks and balances or government by Constitution -- to say nothing of judicial review and judicial independence. He has this strange notion that he was anointed god-emperor, not elected via a hole in the Constitution.
I hope you're wrong. a dumb tyrant just as bad as a smart tyrant....
FBI director is supposed to talk to the Senate on Thurs. mabe he shuts Trump down, maybe Trump tries to shut him down
Quote from: fencerider on June 06, 2017, 06:12:05 PM
I hope you're wrong. a dumb tyrant just as bad as a smart tyrant....
FBI director is supposed to talk to the Senate on Thurs. mabe he shuts Trump down, maybe Trump tries to shut him down
Cage fight, with silly putty!
Quote from: trdsf on June 06, 2017, 03:35:14 PM
He certainly is behaving as though he wishes he were one. He clearly has no concept of checks and balances or government by Constitution -- to say nothing of judicial review and judicial independence. He has this strange notion that he was anointed god-emperor, not elected via a hole in the Constitution.
Like all the other Presidents, starting with Washington?
You're always talking out of your ass about US presidents, parties and tyranny. Have you got any evidence that Washington, et al, wanted to be tyrants, or do you just like trolling?
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 06, 2017, 07:55:32 PM
You're always talking out of your ass about US presidents, parties and tyranny. Have you got any evidence that Washington, et al, wanted to be tyrants, or do you just like trolling?
As an atheist, why are you interested in the Lenin-like Mao-like cult of personality that surrounds American Presidents? What kind of CIA/KGB psyop are you sir? Do you know that Washington specifically forbade him image on our money? ... that was one of the few things he wasn't a tyrant about.
The US has been unconstitutionally at war ... since 1950. Fake news? Do you believe that since almost all of the people involved in 9/11 were Saudis, that the Saudis had nothing to do with it? At the very least the US is allied with one of the most regressive regimes on the planet since 1944 ... isn't that tyranny enough?
So are security measures ... not tyranny? Is freedom too dangerous that we have to stop all civil rights for the duration of this (permanent) emergency? Isn't the continuing dragnet of all communications a violation of privacy rights, or are you a Nazi? When a President stops all this shit, going on since 1945 at least ... then I will agree with you, that unicorns shit a rainbow of Skittles out of their asses.
Quote from: fencerider on June 06, 2017, 12:05:54 AM
you forgot democratic mass murderer Harry Truman. dropped two atomic bombs on Japan while they were trying to surrender just to show USSR what we could do.
Trump the Tyrant??? haha airhead dumber than Gomer Pile yes, but tyrant?
Trump is not a tyrant. He might LIKE to be one, but he isn't. And he is learning that he is not the unchallenged CEO of a private company. He has other power centers to deal with. He is not "dumber than Gomer Pyle". He is MUCH dumber than Gomer Pyle. He is floundering and there is no sergeant to help him.
Now, as to the atomic bombs...
There were many reasons to use them at the time. I'll list some that come to mind easily.
1. The desert tests did not demonstrate the utter destruction they would cause on a city. The results surpassed expectations.
2. The Japanese fought to the last man on most islands leading to Japan. It was logically expected that the mainland invasion would be brutal, costing 100,000 US soldiers.
3. The Japanese were offerred surrender. The fanatical elements refused to consider it even though rational people saw the war was over.
4. After the first Atomic Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, and the Japanese Government saw the destruction, they refused to surrender. The several day delay in dropping the second one was for them to see the destruction. They decided to ignore it.
5. The second one on Nagasaki was convincing. Even then, the Japanese military attempted a coup to continue the war. To the last soldier (and civilian, I might add).
6. Estimates I have read suggest the Atomic Bombs greatly reduced deaths overall for both sides, compared to a mainland invasion.
7. Russia only entered the war against Japan after seeing that the US had sufficient force to subdue Japan. While I completely respect the Russian valor and determination (and severe losses) fighting Hitler, they had little ability to invade Japan. Russia was doing a "me too" there.
8. Using a new offensive weapon to defeat an enemy is not a "war crime". AThe Atomic Bomb was new, but not out of scale of other attacks on cities. The firestorms at Hamburg and Dresden differed little from the Atomic Bomb lethality at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
9. War is all hell. The Nazis and Japanese sowed the seeds of their destruction, and they reaped the whirlwinds.
10. When you try to expand by committing atrocities, you can get the same in return until you surrender.
11. The Nazis and the Japanese got less penalty than they deserved. In times past, they would have been downtrodden for a generation or more. Instead, they were liberated were possible by the West, and accepted into the international community as soon as possible. Post WWII introduced "democratize and be welcome". That is not something to be overlooked.
Quote from: Baruch on June 07, 2017, 01:49:57 AM
As an atheist, why are you interested in the Lenin-like Mao-like cult of personality that surrounds American Presidents? What kind of CIA/KGB psyop are you sir? Do you know that Washington specifically forbade him image on our money? ... that was one of the few things he wasn't a tyrant about.
The US has been unconstitutionally at war ... since 1950. Fake news? Do you believe that since almost all of the people involved in 9/11 were Saudis, that the Saudis had nothing to do with it? At the very least the US is allied with one of the most regressive regimes on the planet since 1944 ... isn't that tyranny enough?
So are security measures ... not tyranny? Is freedom too dangerous that we have to stop all civil rights for the duration of this (permanent) emergency? Isn't the continuing dragnet of all communications a violation of privacy rights, or are you a Nazi? When a President stops all this shit, going on since 1945 at least ... then I will agree with you, that unicorns shit a rainbow of Skittles out of their asses.
You keep using that word, "tyranny"...
(http://i.memecaptain.com/gend_images/WFkrzw.jpg)
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 07, 2017, 04:51:58 PM
You keep using that word, "tyranny"...
(http://i.memecaptain.com/gend_images/WFkrzw.jpg)
All Gentiles are German? All Germans are Nazi? I have yet to be convinced, but keep on trying. Ancient tyranny technically means one-man rule ... is even Cuba or Venezuela a tyranny? I think it is a tyranny, if your government runs things so badly that you can't find toilet paper. If your paper money is the only toilet paper you can find. And you can achieve that, even with a very equalitarian democracy (Weimar before Hitler). A democracy can be a tyranny, by the modern definition ... depends on how crappy it is. Both Weimar and the Hitler regime were tyrannical, though technically only the Hitler regime was. Tyranny in modern terms happens, when the public is treated as an enemy, by its own government. This has been true since longer than I have been alive. Neither R nor D makes any damn difference.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 07, 2017, 02:50:00 AM
2. The Japanese fought to the last man on most islands leading to Japan. It was logically expected that the mainland invasion would be brutal, costing 100,000 US soldiers.
3. The Japanese were offerred surrender. The fanatical elements refused to consider it even though rational people saw the war was over.
4. After the first Atomic Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, and the Japanese Government saw the destruction, they refused to surrender. The several day delay in dropping the second one was for them to see the destruction. They decided to ignore it.
5. The second one on Nagasaki was convincing. Even then, the Japanese military attempted a coup to continue the war. To the last soldier (and civilian, I might add).
6. Estimates I have read suggest the Atomic Bombs greatly reduced deaths overall for both sides, compared to a mainland invasion.
7. Russia only entered the war against Japan after seeing that the US had sufficient force to subdue Japan. While I completely respect the Russian valor and determination (and severe losses) fighting Hitler, they had little ability to invade Japan. Russia was doing a "me too" there.
8. Using a new offensive weapon to defeat an enemy is not a "war crime". AThe Atomic Bomb was new, but not out of scale of other attacks on cities. The firestorms at Hamburg and Dresden differed little from the Atomic Bomb lethality at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I expected such an answer, because it is the common storyline.
According to documentary
Oliver Stone The untold history of the United States Japan was trying to surrender months before the bomb was finished. They asked only for the condition that the emperor's life would be spared, and Truman wanted unconditional surrender. When the bomb was finished all of the commanders on the ground; except the one in charge of developing the bomb; were telling Truman that Japan was going to collapse in one or two more weeks. Japan tried to surrender again with the condition of sparing the emperor's life and Truman refused again. In the end because Japanese lives weren't any more valuable than African Americans they dropped the bomb to show Russia what we could do.
A soldier that shoots an enemy soldier that is trying to surrender could be put on trial long before Truman was around. There is no reason why a president can't; especially one as bigotted and xenophobic as Truman. His hatred of Russia was so great it only took him a few months to destroy the relationship that Roosevelt and Stalin spent more than 10 years working to build, and break all the promises made to Russia...after that comes the crap with the CIA and Hoover that Baruch likes so much
I haven't ever looked at the definition of tyranny in the dictionary, but to me it means crimes committed against the people by the government. Whatever definition you want to use, there isn't any argument that the U.S. government of modern times has long exceeded the causes of the Revolution, but by drugging us or stroking our backs or other such nonsense we still accept what is done to us.
Silly Fence, the definition of tyranny is anything another government does that the US government, especially the republicans, don't agree with...even if, especially if, we do the same thing. Do you even FREEDOM?
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Woulda, Coulda & Shoulda ... that is the problem with "Alternative history". We could have prevented the Cold War, by joining Hitler (as my own grandfather wanted) in the great crusade against Stalin ... and prevented the Cold War entirely. General Patton would agree, except he liked killing Germans so much, he wanted them destroyed first, then the Russians ;-) If that British soldier in WW I, who could have shot the fleeing unarmed Hitler, had done his duty (oh no, shoot an unarmed soldier) ...
Alternative history ... the Japanese get a clue, and decide not to be so damn aggressive? A much better choice for the 20 million Chinese the Japanese are still guilty of murdering. I love the Japanese as a people/culture ... their aggressiveness ... not so much. Some conservative folks still hate Wilson, others hate Lincoln. So you hate Truman? We have different hates (in my case, I at least have been alive for the last 12 Administrations ... and I still prefer Ike.
Quote from: fencerider on June 09, 2017, 11:57:51 PM
I expected such an answer, because it is the common storyline.
According to documentary Oliver Stone The untold history of the United States Japan was trying to surrender months before the bomb was finished. They asked only for the condition that the emperor's life would be spared, and Truman wanted unconditional surrender. When the bomb was finished all of the commanders on the ground; except the one in charge of developing the bomb; were telling Truman that Japan was going to collapse in one or two more weeks. Japan tried to surrender again with the condition of sparing the emperor's life and Truman refused again. In the end because Japanese lives weren't any more valuable than African Americans they dropped the bomb to show Russia what we could do.
A soldier that shoots an enemy soldier that is trying to surrender could be put on trial long before Truman was around. There is no reason why a president can't; especially one as bigotted and xenophobic as Truman. His hatred of Russia was so great it only took him a few months to destroy the relationship that Roosevelt and Stalin spent more than 10 years working to build, and break all the promises made to Russia...after that comes the crap with the CIA and Hoover that Baruch likes so much
I haven't ever looked at the definition of tyranny in the dictionary, but to me it means crimes committed against the people by the government. Whatever definition you want to use, there isn't any argument that the U.S. government of modern times has long exceeded the causes of the Revolution, but by drugging us or stroking our backs or other such nonsense we still accept what is done to us.
Trusting Oliver Stone is like trusting Fox News...