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Humanities Section => Political/Government General Discussion => Topic started by: SoldierofFortune on May 02, 2017, 12:32:08 PM

Title: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on May 02, 2017, 12:32:08 PM
The question is clear.

He was elected by the nation who has feeewill and freedoom in what they think and choose.
Will he administrate just for the interests of the nation or will he be influenced by some people who are at the back plan?

Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 02, 2017, 01:09:49 PM
Sorry, but I have to parse this ;-)

Is he a teflon President?

Is he governing for the common good, or for an American minority, or for a foreign power?
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on May 02, 2017, 02:00:23 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 02, 2017, 01:09:49 PM
Sorry, but I have to parse this ;-)

Is he a teflon President?

Is he governing for the common good, or for an American minority, or for a foreign power?

America seems like it is the biggest defender and exporter of democracy in the world.
If he defend just the a minority's interestsö then how can we mention about democracy?
The claims he is governinig for a minority is very strong and this idea finds a lot of supporters in the states.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Hydra009 on May 02, 2017, 02:37:51 PM
I'm having difficulty parsing this as well.

I think you're asking to what extent an American President has the ability to just do whatever he/she wants.

It can get pretty complicated but here's the basics:

Presidential powers
* can veto congressional legislation (the President plays a huge role in shaping the legislative agenda)
* appoints Supreme Court justices, appoints top officials for all federal agencies
* conducts military strikes (technically, declaring war requires congressional approval.  But planting a few freedom seeds does not require congressional approval, only congressional notification.  "I accidentally started WWIII.  Here's a text.")
* appoints ambassadors
* negotiates treaties with other nations
* issues executive orders (can be overturned by the Supreme Court)
* issues pardons

If you noticed some glaring problems here, like the ability to get into a quasi-war without congressional approval or the ability to stack the court with Yes men and then have the judiciary rubber-stamp everything you do or the possibility of, oh I dunno, a single party controlling both Congress and the Presidency and gets more or less free reign to do whatever, then congrats, you just figured out America's achilles heel.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 02, 2017, 06:47:20 PM
A parliamentary system that happens to have a strong single party majority (not Italy) ... is a tyranny too.  The cabinet appointments, the SCOTUS appointments and many others have to be ratified by the Senate.

And being able to wage war, without declaration, even against Americans ... goes back to President Washington, both before and after his first term ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

America doesn't defend or export democracy ... it defends and exports itself.  In the last 100 years, the trans-national leadership of the world has grown and grown ... making vast amount during both World Wars ... and the subsequent Cold War (and regional hot wars).  American leaders didn't want to overturn European hegemony from 100 years ago, they desired to first join it, and later lead it.  Russia, China and India continue to resist.  In the 19th century there was the Great Game ... but in the 20th there was The Heartland ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 02, 2017, 07:03:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35aT9ikWcqc

Here's a transcript of the interview:

http://theslot.jezebel.com/donald-trump-is-unintelligible-1794580772


and I thought Sarah Palin was unintelligible!
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Unbeliever on May 02, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
(http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-the-secret-of-the-demagogue-is-to-make-himself-as-stupid-as-his-audience-so-they-believe-karl-kraus-89-20-61.jpg)
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: fencerider on May 03, 2017, 01:54:07 AM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 02, 2017, 02:37:51 PM
I'm having difficulty parsing this as well.

I think you're asking to what extent an American President has the ability to just do whatever he/she wants.

It can get pretty complicated but here's the basics:

Presidential powers
* can veto congressional legislation (the President plays a huge role in shaping the legislative agenda)
* appoints Supreme Court justices, appoints top officials for all federal agencies
* conducts military strikes (technically, declaring war requires congressional approval.  But planting a few freedom seeds does not require congressional approval, only congressional notification.  "I accidentally started WWIII.  Here's a text.")
* appoints ambassadors
* negotiates treaties with other nations
* issues executive orders (can be overturned by the Supreme Court)
* issues pardons

If you noticed some glaring problems here, like the ability to get into a quasi-war without congressional approval or the ability to stack the court with Yes men and then have the judiciary rubber-stamp everything you do or the possibility of, oh I dunno, a single party controlling both Congress and the Presidency and gets more or less free reign to do whatever, then congrats, you just figured out America's achilles heel.

yes and no

the president can start military action without authority from Congress but if it goes badly he can be fully prosecuted for any disastrous situation created. (if Congress gave authority to start with then he can't be prosecuted) The whole concept of the president dreamin up a war and then getting Congress to approve it is ass-backwards. For the U.S. to be involved in a war, the whole idea is supposed to start and end with the Congress.

treaties are supposed to be negotiated with the Senate looking over the predidents shoulder.

There is also no where in the Constitution that says federal judges serve for life (they are allowed to serve during good behavior) meaning Congress can remove them without an inditement.

The Constitution says nothing about executive orders.( Still trying to find the law written by Congress) so they only have any weight in a court room if Congress passed a law that says so.

the president can veto a law, but Congress can go back to the table and override the veto. also any law that the president does not sign or veto within 10 biz days becomes law without his signature.

Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 02:22:36 AM
True.  My quick-and-dirty version doesn't convey a lot of details.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 07:06:17 AM
Quote from: fencerider on May 03, 2017, 01:54:07 AM
yes and no

the president can start military action without authority from Congress but if it goes badly he can be fully prosecuted for any disastrous situation created. (if Congress gave authority to start with then he can't be prosecuted) The whole concept of the president dreamin up a war and then getting Congress to approve it is ass-backwards. For the U.S. to be involved in a war, the whole idea is supposed to start and end with the Congress.

treaties are supposed to be negotiated with the Senate looking over the predidents shoulder.

There is also no where in the Constitution that says federal judges serve for life (they are allowed to serve during good behavior) meaning Congress can remove them without an inditement.

The Constitution says nothing about executive orders.( Still trying to find the law written by Congress) so they only have any weight in a court room if Congress passed a law that says so.

the president can veto a law, but Congress can go back to the table and override the veto. also any law that the president does not sign or veto within 10 biz days becomes law without his signature.

War-powers fantasy.  The US has been under executive war powers since 1950 (Korea conflict).  Technically, the US has been at war with N Korea all the way back to 1950.  Under nuclear era conditions, the quaint mechanisms of the Constitution had to be bypassed.  This is why war propaganda about N Korea is essential, to justify the Congressional allowed Executive over-reach ... ratified by later Congressional legislation (cut back because of Nixon but expanded again under 9/11).  It is equally essential for the "permanent war party" to never resolve the Korean conflict.  Other actors (Cuba, N Vietnam, etc) have been sub-villains of this agenda.  The fall of the Soviet Union was a huge negative to the "permanent war party" so it has been necessary to antagonize Russia to create the necessary fear level to justify the military expenditures.

There are lots of things that the Constitution and amendments don't cover.  Often in some amendments the giant loophole is "will be detailed in subsequent legislation".  Research the amendment that allowed the Fed and the Income Tax.  Very little in the actual amendment, but they all knew what wasn't written, when they wrote it.  In actual practice, the President, as part of his CinC powers, has controlled foreign policy and non-treaty agreements.  President Teddy Roosevelt laid the groundwork for the current Korea mess .. no treaty required:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/opinion/06bradley.html

Pay attention to what main-line MSM and scholarship denounce ... you can see the CFR in action ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imperial_Cruise
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Shiranu on May 03, 2017, 09:26:54 AM
QuoteHe was elected by the nation who has feeewill and freedoom in what they think and choose.

Correction; he was elected by the electoral college, which gives small states too much power over everyone else. The nation voted for Hillary.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 10:34:03 AM
Also, "freedom to think" is a questionable term, especially in an election whose hallmark was the rampant use of deliberate misinformation and much of it originating from outside the United States.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 10:49:36 AM
And the notable lack of ability to think clearly casts serious doubt on the integrity of the choice.

Suppose I present two mayoral candidates for an immediate vote.  That vote determines who becomes mayor and who does not.  Then I present purported facts about the candidates - some true, some partially true, some true but misleading, and many complete falsehoods.  The people vote.  Later, to their horror, they find out the hard way that not all was as it appeared.

Should that vote be considered an honest reflection of the people's will?
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 03, 2017, 11:49:09 AM
In a foul mood....................it seems to me right now, that the populace of this country are too stupid/lazy to want anything other than a despot.  It is akin to being a religious person--give yourself over to a skydaddy dictator--reduces the need to think, and is oh so easy to just take the word of a religious leader.  I see this country jumping from one dictator to another until one of them makes it permanent.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on May 03, 2017, 09:26:54 AM
Correction; he was elected by the electoral college, which gives small states too much power over everyone else. The nation voted for Hillary.

Give California back to Mexico ... so they can have decent Mexican food there ;-)
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 03, 2017, 11:49:09 AM
In a foul mood....................it seems to me right now, that the populace of this country are too stupid/lazy to want anything other than a despot.  It is akin to being a religious person--give yourself over to a skydaddy dictator--reduces the need to think, and is oh so easy to just take the word of a religious leader.  I see this country jumping from one dictator to another until one of them makes it permanent.

That is the Constitution of 1787 ... so already done.  But no permanent dictator yet, gotta get a woman in, with a good hair do ;-)
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 10:34:03 AM
Also, "freedom to think" is a questionable term, especially in an election whose hallmark was the rampant use of deliberate misinformation and much of it originating from outside the United States.

All Americans not First Nations ... are outsiders.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 12:59:32 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 10:49:36 AM
And the notable lack of ability to think clearly casts serious doubt on the integrity of the choice.

Suppose I present two mayoral candidates for an immediate vote.  That vote determines who becomes mayor and who does not.  Then I present purported facts about the candidates - some true, some partially true, some true but misleading, and many complete falsehoods.  The people vote.  Later, to their horror, they find out the hard way that not all was as it appeared.

Should that vote be considered an honest reflection of the people's will?

This is why democracy is great in theory and bad in practice.  Just say no ... This Is Sparta!
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 03, 2017, 02:29:33 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 12:59:32 PM
This is why democracy is great in theory and bad in practice.  Just say no ... This Is Sparta!
Not to pick on you Baruch, (for you already know this) is that all of the great political/economic stances are flawed.  We have not had a democracy in this country and the founding fathers did not want one.  We have a form of republic in that we give power to representatives to govern us.  And our republic is unique to us.  Same with Communism.  Never has been a full communist state.  Most of what we call communist was actual a form of dictator/totalitarian govt.  And no two were alike.   And they are not 'theories' for none have been proven to work perfectly.  All govt in the history of the world have been flawed.  All have good points and all have bad.  The US constitution seems to work fairly well mostly.  But it, too, has flaws.  Only landed white males should govern?  Anyway--enough of that I guess.  Our govt works when it does and not when it doesn't.  Drump (as in dump) is the summation of the bad.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 05:51:27 PM
Government doesn't work?  You could fool the people I work with.  They enjoy every day sucking the blood out of taxpayers ;-)

When the people are willing to do something, they use corporations and consumerism.  When the people are unwilling to do something, they use government and legalism.  The evil ape people can't get mange soon enough for me.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 06:15:45 PM
Quote from: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 12:59:32 PM
This is why democracy is great in theory and bad in practice.  Just say no ... This Is Sparta!
Dual kings aside, Sparta actually did have a democracy of sorts.  Ephors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephor) were elected by assembly.  So as far as metaphors go, that one's a duck in a boot.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 10:09:25 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 03, 2017, 06:15:45 PM
Dual kings aside, Sparta actually did have a democracy of sorts.  Ephors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephor) were elected by assembly.  So as far as metaphors go, that one's a duck in a boot.

But the Meta-ephors were superior to the ephors ;-)
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: fencerider on May 05, 2017, 02:28:34 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 05:51:27 PM
The evil ape people can't get mange soon enough for me.
the love of the monkey is not in you
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Baruch on May 05, 2017, 05:46:22 AM
Quote from: fencerider on May 05, 2017, 02:28:34 AM
the love of the monkey is not in you

I have much poo to throw.  And I prefer cats.  I expect too much of primates.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: SGOS on May 05, 2017, 05:56:54 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 03, 2017, 11:49:09 AM
...it seems to me right now, that the populace of this country are too stupid/lazy to want anything other than a despot.  It is akin to being a religious person--give yourself over to a skydaddy dictator--reduces the need to think, and is oh so easy to just take the word of a religious leader.  I see this country jumping from one dictator to another until one of them makes it permanent.
I don't know if it's stupid/lazy to want a despot, but it seems to be an undeniable fact that people have gravitated to dictators throughout history, even while they sometimes hate their dictators.  They often hate freedom itself just as much, although freedom often has idiosyncratic definitions that reflect little more than selfish interests.  To me, this is more than stupid/lazy.  It's insane.  But dictators do provide a means for minorities to have it all their way (but democracy in America allows this too), so there are "winners" in dictatorships that benefit, and once they have control, they can maintain power until another form of government takes over.  Any form of government can be hijacked for the benefit of a few.  In fact, I often wonder if that might be the end goal of all governments.
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Mike Cl on May 05, 2017, 09:34:23 AM
Quote from: Baruch on May 03, 2017, 05:51:27 PM
Government doesn't work? 
You like to twist what I say into something I did not say.  I cannot believe you really think I said that.  Govt. works.  And has always worked as a way to maintain a society, big or small.  It is probably a way that evolved throughout the history of our species.  It allows the different necessary elements of a society to function together.  Without that glue we would simply still be grubbing around our environment trying to survive for our-self.  There are no perfect govt.  They all must reflect the society that constructed them.  All the ism's are ideas about what makes govt better.  And each has elements that work well and those that don't; and those that benefit one part of a society more than other parts.  That's the hard part--finding a system that works well for all parts of a society and not just a few parts.  But you know that.  So, why the twisting of words???
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: fencerider on May 06, 2017, 04:52:03 PM
maybe the people wanted a despot, but Trump doesnt have the brains for it. If Rex Tillerson was the pres, they might have their desires for a despot satisfied for a long time. Trump is more like the jester entertaining before the king comes into the dining hall
Title: Re: To which extent Trump is free for what he does in politics?
Post by: Cavebear on May 09, 2017, 04:47:19 AM
I used to think, mathematically, that half the population must be (by definition) stupider than average.  I must revise that thought.  It is now like a non-euclidean triangle where the angles add up to more than 180 degrees. 

More than 50% are now stupider than average.