http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/24/us/new-orleans-confederate-statues/
Quote(CNN) â€" In the dark of night, workers wearing masks and tactical vests arrived Monday at New Orleans' Battle of Liberty Place monument to take it down.
Police snipers were positioned on nearby rooftops, according to The Times-Picayune newspaper, and the trucks and equipment used in the operation had company names covered by cardboard and black tape.
The controversial removal was the first of four scheduled relocations of Confederate memorials in the city, despite weeks of opposition from pro-monument groups and threats against workers. It came as some Southern states celebrated Confederate Memorial Day, although Louisiana is not among them. State government offices in those states will be closed in observance of the holiday.
The Battle of Liberty Place monument was erected in 1891 to mark a deadly fight between members of the "Crescent City White League" -- a group opposed to the city's biracial police force and state militia after the Civil War.
Police barricades protected the workers, who removed the Battle of Liberty Place monument piece by piece. The security measures were taken after several contractors received threats....
But this one bit of irony struck me as funny:
QuoteThe event incited cheers and applause from some people in the crowd while others engaged in heated discussions.
"This should be a celebration but instead this is done clandestinely. They got the workers who are taking it down dressed in black jackets, helmets and their faces are covered, to us that's cowardice, [like the ku klux klan] " one person there told CNN affiliate WVUE-TV.
The bracketed part of the comment was added as my own observation. We can't actually tell the commenter's stance, but there must have been some serious threats to conduct the removal this way, and that part isn't so funny.
Maybe General P T Beauregard isn't ready to restart the war against the Federal government?
When will they realize they lost the Civil War? Imagine the US having statues to the leaders of the losing side of other wars, like WWII.
I do understand the idea of preserving history, which is why these statues are going to be placed in museums.
Strange that they had to do it under the cover of night with police barricades and sniper support. Granted, the contractors had been threatened, so it makes sense to take some precautions. But going that far seems a bit excessive. IIRC, South Carolina's confederate flag got taken down in broad daylight.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 24, 2017, 09:15:30 PM
Strange that they had to do it under the cover of night with police barricades and sniper support. Granted, the contractors had been threatened, so it makes sense to take some precautions. But going that far seems a bit excessive. IIRC, South Carolina's confederate flag got taken down in broad daylight.
You're thinking rationally again. :wagsfinger:
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 24, 2017, 09:15:30 PM
Strange that they had to do it under the cover of night with police barricades and sniper support. Granted, the contractors had been threatened, so it makes sense to take some precautions. But going that far seems a bit excessive. IIRC, South Carolina's confederate flag got taken down in broad daylight.
I thought the same thing, but then I don't know the seriousness of the threats. And I've even considered the possibility that there haven't been any threats, but that some other government agenda is afoot. There was no mention of the local government asking the Feds for help, but if they have to do it at night wearing stealth technology, with snipers on the rooftop, it sounds like either an overreaction or a sensationalized media event.
Not that the situation must necessarily be equated with anything that happens in South Carolina. It may be entirely different. But it does kind of remind me of fundamentalist Christians pretending to be victims whose rights to discriminate, subjugate, and just plain hate are being ripped from the Christian value system, and that they must wail and gnash their teeth in despair.
But it may be more of an attempt of local government to send a message to America: "Do you see how important monuments of our glorious white supremacist past are to our most fervent patriots? We, as government officials willingly comply of course, but just remember, our citizenship is well armed and doesn't forget. So just beware. The South will rise again."
But that's the problem with the media. No one actually knows what's going on, and accurate information is hardly the business of the media. So here we all sit, either getting our noses out of joint over things that may not even be real, or constructing alternate scenarios that explain how anything in print is probably just bullshit. But we live in the Cuckoo's Nest, so it all seems natural, and sometimes even important.
My first guess is overreaction to alleged threats. Though based on the severity of the threats, it could be understandable.
But to a confederate "patriot", this all looks very different. The image of faceless, jackbooted government thugs ripping up lingering traces of the noble Confederate past against the wishes of the local populace readily lends itself to juicy propaganda.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 25, 2017, 09:11:47 AM
My first guess is overreaction to alleged threats. Though based on the severity of the threats, it could be understandable.
But to a confederate "patriot", this all looks very different. The image of faceless, jackbooted government thugs ripping up lingering traces of the noble Confederate past against the wishes of the local populace readily lends itself to juicy propaganda.
Yeah, it's like "1984" except somehow backwards. The purpose of the jack booted thugs is to interfere with the other jack booted thugs, while the purpose of the proletariat at large is to simply purchase goods and services, and to stock pile canned goods, hard drives, and firearms for when the system collapses.
While my redneck cousins are a bunch of blowhards most of the time I wouldn't put it past them to get into a shooting match like the possible scenario in this situation. They make incredibly bad decisions on a routine basis. (The first of which was being born, I do believe.)
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 25, 2017, 09:11:47 AM
My first guess is overreaction to alleged threats. Though based on the severity of the threats, it could be understandable.
But to a confederate "patriot", this all looks very different. The image of faceless, jackbooted government thugs ripping up lingering traces of the noble Confederate past against the wishes of the local populace readily lends itself to juicy propaganda.
One of the companies was fire-bombed earlier this week for being allegedly involved in the process of taking it down and there have been multiple protests, according to NPR. Doesn't seem like much of an over-reaction to me.
Quote from: Shiranu on April 25, 2017, 11:54:00 AM
One of the companies was fire-bombed earlier this week for being allegedly involved in the process of taking it down and there have been multiple protests, according to NPR. Doesn't seem like much of an over-reaction to me.
I didn't know that. Nvm, then.
I guess now the Civil War didn't happen.
Well, people have dug up civil war dead and reburied them in unmarked graves, taken down monuments everywhere, etc. Soon there will be no trace of the civil war. At that point, since all remnants have disappeared then it will not have happened.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 14, 2017, 01:01:02 PM
Well, people have dug up civil war dead and reburied them in unmarked graves, taken down monuments everywhere, etc. Soon there will be no trace of the civil war. At that point, since all remnants have disappeared then it will not have happened.
That would be nice. In Alabama (when I was there), the Civil War never happened--it was the War of Northern Aggression. I think the North was far, far too easy on the defeated Confederates as it is. Wiping away all trace of the Confederacy would be a great thing! In my book, Robert E. Lee was a traitor not a hero.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 14, 2017, 01:35:18 PM
That would be nice. In Alabama (when I was there), the Civil War never happened--it was the War of Northern Aggression. I think the North was far, far too easy on the defeated Confederates as it is. Wiping away all trace of the Confederacy would be a great thing! In my book, Robert E. Lee was a traitor not a hero.
Contrarian ... and we should kill all the damn Yankees, all over again. Lincoln was a tyrant, long live J W Booth! ... not my personal opinion. This is why we can't have nice things ... Damn Yankees! Good thing the Dodgers moved to California.
So why Mr 1984 ... is it necessary to erase history. You sound so ... diabolical.
I see Lee as a tragic hero. I see Grant as a tragic hero. I see Lincoln as a tragic hero. I see Jefferson Davis as a tragic hero. Maybe not ... Nathan Bedford Forrest ... because of his post Civil War resistance as a KKK founder. Though in the war itself, Nathan Bedford Forrest was a more effective version of Jeb Stuart (a failed cavalryman ... in the same way that J A Custer was a failed cavalryman). W T Sherman was an admirable if tragic military commander, though on a personal level he isn't SJW. I can admire competent military men regardless ... same as I admire Rommel along with Patton. I admire Genghis Khan ... though he was a genocidal maniac ... for simply being effective. Iranians might feel about Alexander, the same way Chinese would feel about Genghis.
So basically you only like Gandhi? I know things about him that aren't admirable at all. But I can still admire him. And yes, Lee killed more Americans on American soil than any other military commander, other than Grant who was a close second. But speaking of Other ... I suppose you think that Southern folk are under-menschen who should be exterminated?
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 14, 2017, 01:01:02 PM
Well, people have dug up civil war dead and reburied them in unmarked graves, taken down monuments everywhere, etc. Soon there will be no trace of the civil war. At that point, since all remnants have disappeared then it will not have happened.
We been infiltrated by Culture Marxists!
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on May 14, 2017, 11:56:56 AM
I guess now the Civil War didn't happen.
Wait till the British Are Coming, the British Are Coming .. erasing all evidence of the American Revolution and the USA. Tea and crumpets, anyone?
Quote from: Baruch on May 14, 2017, 02:39:21 PM
Contrarian ... and we should kill all the damn Yankees, all over again. Lincoln was a tyrant, long live J W Booth! ... not my personal opinion. This is why we can't have nice things ... Damn Yankees!
You sound like you live in Alabama.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 14, 2017, 05:09:07 PM
You sound like you live in Alabama.
Not really, but as Jewish, I can't seriously take anyone as sub-human or super-human ... I know where that leads. I wouldn't want to be in Lees position, being interviewed by Lincoln, asked to be the lead general of the Union army. Lee made a mistake, but I realize I could make the same mistake. Historically, there is nothing wrong with slavery. And in wage and debt slavery (the Union kind) it isn't even yet against the law.
In most nations, the confederate leaders and generals would have been tried and hanged for treason. They committed treason. Forbearance and a desire to heal the wounds of war prevented that. I am a decendant of Yankee abolitionists but have lived in both Massachusetts and Virginia (and took Virginia History for 4 years in school there).
The rebellion ended. The Lost Cause will not be renewed. The argument was settled. Let the war be relegated to history. But don't leave confederate statues around glorifying the treason.
I say this because too many other cultures drag their past hatreds and anger of centuries past into the present. You can see it everywhere. It need not continue here. With the logic of The Lost Causers, we should hate the British and they us. We don't. Let the past become the past.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 18, 2017, 02:42:57 AM
In most nations, the confederate leaders and generals would have been tried and hanged for treason. They committed treason. Forbearance and a desire to heal the wounds of war prevented that. I am a decendant of Yankee abolitionists but have lived in both Massachusetts and Virginia (and took Virginia History for 4 years in school there).
The rebellion ended. The Lost Cause will not be renewed. The argument was settled. Let the war be relegated to history. But don't leave confederate statues around glorifying the treason.
I say this because too many other cultures drag their past hatreds and anger of centuries past into the present. You can see it everywhere. It need not continue here. With the logic of The Lost Causers, we should hate the British and they us. We don't. Let the past become the past.
Just as Washington and the others were, and should have been. Rs are now Ds and Ds are Rs. Rebels were conservatives, now they are liberals. The Civil War will next be in California, not Alabama.
Do we have any monuments to Benedict Arnold?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 18, 2017, 11:53:52 AM
Do we have any monuments to Benedict Arnold?
Do the English have monuments to George Washington? To them, Benedict Arnold was the patriot, not George Washington.
Depends on the meaning of "we". So Clinton. Some folks in 1861 would have exterminated all the White folk in the South, and given it all to the freed slaves. NE self-righteous folks are like that, John Brown lies mouldering in his grave and all that ... and Battle Hymn of the Republic. Lincoln was a better man than that, he would have found another way to get rid of slavery, to solve the secession issue first. And he held no hatred in his heart. Yes, people we don't like are humans too .. even Marxists and Nazis. Not saying those people are easy to like, or that you shouldn't oppose what they stand for.
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2017, 12:07:30 PM
Do the English have monuments to George Washington? To them, Benedict Arnold was the patriot, not George Washington.
Again with the Baruchistani.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 18, 2017, 12:33:39 PM
Again with the Baruchistani.
The British still have stuff they took from the White House in the war of 1812. When should we invade them?
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2017, 12:49:52 PM
The British still have stuff they took from the White House in the war of 1812. When should we invade them?
You go ahead. Meanwhile I have look up the number for Whitehall.
Germany has done it's best to remove anything that even remotely seems promotive of the Nazis... yet I don't really see people saying, "Oh noes! These SJW are trying to make it like the Holocaust never happened!".
There are plenty of small Civil War museums, historical markers, etc. even here in Texas. That is where it belongs; not idiolized as something to proud of with a statue or a memorial (we have a plaque celebrating one of the slave owning Southern defenders on Texas State University that I think 99% of students have no idea exist), but in a museum where people will look back and say, "Wow, that was fucked up.". You don't have to romanticize a shitty history to remember it and learn from it.
There is a class of people who want to deny history, or simply erase it, because they can't stand the truth of it. Holocaust denial is just one part of it. But all statements of history, particularly monuments, are statements of politics. Since the Southerners have defiled themselves by becoming Rs ... but redeemed it by making it into the party of Strom Thurmond (more or less) ... they have much to atone for since 1960, part of it being the R party today ;-(
The US Civil War was 150+ years ago. It should be in the past. Monuments celebrating the rebellion should be gone by now. It suggests that too many people still think it was right.
But more importantly, the idea of "The Lost Cause" was dying out decades ago. It has been revived more as a convenient political strategy than as a rational "States Rights" argument today. As it was then a declaration that some people should be enslaved (read the "Declarations Of Succession" of most Southern States if you doubt that), it remains today a statement of White Supremacy.
Skin color is irrelevant. My skin is pale because my ancestors moved to locations of low sunlight and those who had the least melanin got the most sunlight. It is all just sunlight from where your ancestors lived.