I'm advocating this and organizing a protest that calls for grammatical disobedience. After years and years of creating awkward sounding sentences, because I'm forbidden to end a sentence with a preposition, I'm throwing down the gauntlet. I am demanding the right for everyone to end a sentence with a preposition anytime they goddamned well want TO.
This all started two days ago, when NPR did a little blurp on how that totally senseless rule started way back in some long forgotten century of antiquity. It seems like the audacious grammatical elite, who controlled the English language, and who all walked around with sticks up their butts, decided it was wrong, and saddled the rest of us with their uppity bullshit. Why? Because they were all well versed in Latin to which they assigned the same importance that other people with sticks up their butts assign to attending the opera on a regular basis.
Now, you may have heard of Latin. It's a little known language but often taught in colleges today in curriculums that include accounting with an abacus, and engineering with a slide rule. My high school offered classes in Latin, and even back then people knew it was a dead language, but they taught it anyway, sometimes defending its inclusion in the curriculum on the grounds that understanding Latin would help you understand English, which I had already been speaking my entire life. Anyway, just telling you that some of my friends actually took classes in high school Latin, so you know I've been around the block a few times and have figured out a thing or two on my own. Actually, I can't remember anyone I knew that took a class in Latin, but the class was offered. Hell, learning how to speak Hawaiian would have made more sense that learning Latin.
As it turns out, Latin doesn't really make a big deal about ending sentences with prepositions, but because of Latin's obscure word order, prepositions at the end of the sentence turn the whole communication into mostly meaningless gibberish. And since these grammatical megalomaniacs with sticks up their butts thought Latin to be purer and holier than any other language, regardless that no one except Catholic priests had any use for it, and even the Church itself wasn't sure why it was still there except that their priests spoke in Latin confident that no one in the congregation would comprehend a word of what they said, and were thereby secure from the challenges of trouble making upstarts with axes to grind.
So they decided that prepositions at the end of sentences in English, and any other language as well, were forever off the table. And obedient me, the fearful child, along with a militant band of conservative "do it the right way" zealots, have been turning perfectly understandable expository into long laborious sentences that lack punch and clarity ever since. No wonder people today can't tell a fallacy from a logical claim. They can't even understand the language the fallacy is communicated in.
And I've been pissed over it for the last two days.
100 likes, a brilliant essay. And I even like Latin. Has to do with "indirect objects" and formal vs informal speech (which allows incomplete clauses, phrases and ye gods! ... incomplete sentences). We peasants are supposed to ape our betters like the jackanapes we are, imitate how they speak, so we can better pass in polite society. Like a man dressed as a woman, attempting to pass, with the usual comical results ;-) Your complaint is far better based than the SJW war against traditional pronouns.
You can not end a sentence with with...
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on April 22, 2017, 12:04:04 PM
You can not end a sentence with with...
You can not end a sentence with with... unless you want
to.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on April 22, 2017, 12:04:04 PM
You can not end a sentence with with...
Who would you go with?
Quote from: SGOS on April 22, 2017, 12:19:06 PM
You can not end a sentence with with... unless you want to.
Conversational grammar is nothing to fuck with.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 22, 2017, 12:32:02 PM
Conversational grammar is nothing to fuck with.
Unless you want to. Just make sure you know where you get it at.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 22, 2017, 01:08:44 PM
Unless you want to. Just make sure you know where you get it at.
That I can go with.
I like being a grammar nazi.
Waiting for the "End a sentence with a proposition" thread.
Quote from: Sorginak on April 22, 2017, 02:10:58 PM
I like being a grammar nazi.
Oh, don't be a pendant.
"This is the sort of stuff of which we shall not put up with."
Quote from: Sorginak on April 22, 2017, 05:57:34 PM
What if I want to be a pendant?
A necklace would be more personal.
Quote from: Sorginak on April 22, 2017, 05:57:34 PM
What if I want to be a pendant?
Then you'll hang, stranger! :stetson:
Pedant? Or did I walk myself into a joke?
Quote from: SGOS on April 22, 2017, 07:14:21 PM
Pedant? Or did I walk myself into a joke?
Are you late or just stringing us along?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 22, 2017, 06:48:44 PM
Then you'll hang, stranger! :stetson:
So long as I'm hanging with the best.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 22, 2017, 07:16:14 PM
Are you late or just stringing us along?
OK, now I get it. Good one. Thanks for the help.
I ignore the rule. It is one of the things I will put up with.
Language is not static. It serves a purpose of a time.
There is no such rule about ending sentences with a preposition:
https://www.thoughtco.com/is-it-wrong-to-end-a-sentence-with-a-preposition-1691034
My last sentence ended with parole...
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 25, 2017, 06:54:16 PM
My last sentence ended with parole...
My case was dropped. None of the witnesses would testify.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 25, 2017, 07:41:46 PM
My case was dropped. None of the witnesses would testify.
I've seen a picture of you...neither would I
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 25, 2017, 06:54:16 PM
There is no such rule about ending sentences with a preposition:
https://www.thoughtco.com/is-it-wrong-to-end-a-sentence-with-a-preposition-1691034
Ha! There it is, just as I thought. Of course some will still argue it's wrong, because well, it's wrong, Goddamit.
Quote from: aitm on April 25, 2017, 08:32:15 PM
I've seen a picture of you...neither would I
Aw, shucks.
Oh, the grammar Nazis of the world will go all nuts like republicans and tax cuts for the rich..and by GAWD I'll end sentences with prepositional phrases any goddamn time I like and while we're at it I'll use run on sentences just as if they were on sale at Walmart for 90% off retail!
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on April 26, 2017, 11:01:39 PM
Oh, the grammar Nazis of the world will go all nuts like republicans and tax cuts for the rich..and by GAWD I'll end sentences with prepositional phrases any goddamn time I like and while we're at it I'll use run on sentences just as if they were on sale at Walmart for 90% off retail!
Yet there was nothing wrong with your grammar.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on April 26, 2017, 11:01:39 PM
Oh, the grammar Nazis of the world will go all nuts like republicans and tax cuts for the rich..and by GAWD I'll end sentences with prepositional phrases any goddamn time I like and while we're at it I'll use run on sentences just as if they were on sale at Walmart for 90% off retail!
Don't get me involved in this.
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on April 22, 2017, 12:04:04 PM
You can not end a sentence with with...
This is a rule up with which I will not put.
Two of the dumbest "rules" about English are because some medieval dolt thought Latin rules should be applied to a non-Latin language: ending on a preposition and splitting infinitives.
If I want to deliberately split infinitives and end a sentence with a preposition, I can if I want to.
And, while we're at it, I'm impassive about "passive voice". If you don't like the way I write, don't read it.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 28, 2017, 07:37:00 PM
And, while we're at it, I'm impassive about "passive voice". If you don't like the way I write, don't read it.
But are you inactive about active voice? ;-)
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 28, 2017, 07:37:00 PM
And, while we're at it, I'm impassive about "passive voice".
Sometimes it annoys the reader when passive voice is used. But it's not a hard and fast rule, sometimes passive voice makes sense when the subject is unknown or you want to emphasize the action being done rather than the person doing it.
Great novels often use passive voice and it's rarely noticed by me.
I had a bimbette refuse to review a paper I did for a class in grad school. She scrawled "NO PASSIVE VOICE" across the first page with a Sharpie. My prof laughed and marked "A+" on it and gave it back to me.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 29, 2017, 07:05:34 AM
I had a bimbette refuse to review a paper I did for a class in grad school. She scrawled "NO PASSIVE VOICE" across the first page with a Sharpie. My prof laughed and marked "A+" on it and gave it back to me.
I had to look up active/passive voice to refresh my memory. Seems I discarded that rule long ago. I can't say that I now understand how to identify which is which, but after reading the examples of each, I decided not to trouble myself knowing the difference, because it clearly is a stupid rule.
Quote from: SGOS on April 29, 2017, 07:44:55 AM
I had to look up active/passive voice to refresh my memory. Seems I discarded that rule long ago. I can't say that I now understand how to identify which is which, but after reading the examples of each, I decided not to trouble myself knowing the difference, because it clearly is a stupid rule.
There you go, being all rational and shit.
I remember reading letters to the editor in the local rag that passed for news in my home town. There was some ongoing debate about the local school system, which had its flaws (what system doesn't), but overall was pretty good. A girl defending the system wrote a letter about how much she loved her teachers, and that she was happy to have such a school system in a small town where she lived.
The next week, some guy with an axe to grind attacked the school system with a back handed and indirect retort to the high school girl: "Yeah well, you're so stupid that you ended a sentence with a preposition," thereby attacking the English Department by humiliating the girl. Or maybe he just wanted to attack a high school girl because it made him feel superior. The girl had indeed ended a sentence with a preposition, but in either case, that guy was an asshole. Everyone knows the rule, and I'm sure she did too. It's taught in English classes all around the country, and of course no one defended the girl the next week. I guess a rule is a rule, even if it's an absurd rule only meant to be there for anal retentive assholes to get pissy about <intentional preposition>.
Quote from: SGOS on April 29, 2017, 07:44:55 AMI had to look up active/passive voice to refresh my memory. Seems I discarded that rule long ago. I can't say that I now understand how to identify which is which, but after reading the examples of each, I decided not to trouble myself knowing the difference, because it clearly is a stupid rule.
The rule is stupid, but it is insisted upon pretty fervently by many grammarians.
A good rule of thumb for detecting passive voice is known by me. If you can add "by zombies" to the end of a sentence (or it ends with "by ____") the sentence definitely is passive.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 29, 2017, 09:39:04 AM
The rule is stupid, but it is insisted upon pretty fervently by many grammarians.
A good rule of thumb for detecting passive voice is known by me. If you can add "by zombies" to the end of a sentence (or it ends with "by ____") the sentence definitely is passive.
Too much work.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 29, 2017, 09:39:04 AM
The rule is stupid, but it is insisted upon pretty fervently by many grammarians.
A good rule of thumb for detecting passive voice is known by me. If you can add "by zombies" to the end of a sentence (or it ends with "by ____") the sentence definitely is passive.
OK, what's the bad [voice] again (active or passive)? edit: Forget it. I just scrolled up. Duh?!
Quote from: SGOS on April 29, 2017, 11:03:39 AM
OK, what's the bad [voice] again (active or passive)? edit: Forget it. I just scrolled up. Duh?!
The only bad voice is the one that is less perfect for the atmosphere you're trying to create with your words.
Quote from: trdsf on May 01, 2017, 12:18:35 AM
The only bad voice is the one that is less perfect for the atmosphere you're trying to create with your words.
Exactly.
Passive voice is bad to use in many situations:
"The eastern wastes are roamed by massive dragons." Passive voice. Bad.
"Massive dragons roam the eastern wastes." Active voice. Good.
Typically, you're going to want to emphasize the agent doing the action, so the agent is first and what he/she/it/they are doing goes later:
Eddard read the letter. Bronn loosed his arrow. Arya hid in the shadows. Stannis and his army rowed to shore. Etc.
But every once and a while, it's better to use passive voice:
This temple was built long ago. (The focus is on the temple, not the person who built it. Plus, the builder is unknown/unimportant.)
Our last three kings died from assassins' bullets. (the focus is on the assassinated kings, not their assassins)
Since Vlad has taken the throne, many nobles have died premature deaths. (indirect accusation)
These lands are closed to your kind, elf. (commanding tone)
I write. You have the choice to read or not read. EOF
Down with all rules - grammar anarchy is what's needed!
Can we end a sentence with a preposterous?
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 01, 2017, 03:41:53 PM
Down with all rules - grammar anarchy is what's needed!
But people who make complete sentences are socialist. So complete sentences without rules are anarcho-syndicalist.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 01, 2017, 03:41:53 PM
Down with all rules - grammar anarchy is what's needed!
We already have that. We call it art/music. Those are the only fields with complete artistic license. Everything else can only bend the rules, if that.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 01, 2017, 04:40:13 PM
Can we end a sentence with a preposterous?
Absolutely! Always!
Remember, diagramming sentences is preposterous!!
Diagramming gives you something to work with.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 02, 2017, 06:10:24 AM
Diagramming gives you something to work with.
So does the bible. And that is preposterous.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 02, 2017, 08:43:17 AM
So does the bible. And that is preposterous.
And the two are equivalent in what fashion?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 02, 2017, 11:10:35 AM
And the two are equivalent in what fashion?
Well, now that I think about it---no connection at all.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 02, 2017, 01:10:47 PM
Well, now that I think about it---no connection at all.
If you read a little, you would know that the conception of grammar in languages descended from proto-Afro-Asiatic is completely different from that of languages descended from proto-Indo-European. And yes, it does matter what language/culture you think and express yourself in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLt9iYjlSkw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqK7XXvfiXs
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 01, 2017, 04:40:13 PM
Can we end a sentence with a preposterous?
How about ending a sentence with a proposition?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/fb/0c/bcfb0ce587352e72ce996ff56b495de4.jpg)
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 02, 2017, 05:12:18 PM
How about ending a sentence with a proposition?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bc/fb/0c/bcfb0ce587352e72ce996ff56b495de4.jpg)
At some points in my life I could have propositioned either one of those young ladies. It would probably have ended badly, but I could have done it.
Coulda woulda shoulda ?
Would you hit on the one with the mangled arm?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 03, 2017, 07:06:06 AM
Would you hit on the one with the mangled arm?
Some people even have a thing for amputees ... it is a well known kink.
Yep. A friend of mine wound up with a gal that was, by general consensus, way too hot for him because he has lost a leg. He seemed happy.
Does an English teacher say "up-I hic"?