I sometimes attend some of the old churches I used to go to just to experience the community I used to get when I was a believer. It's good to sing songs, to hear a powerful sermon (which can sometimes contain some good philosophical gems), to spend time with family and loved ones etc. I actually really love church. Church, I believe is the only great thing about Christianity/religion. It is especially great when you go to a good southern protestant church like the ones where I'm from.
The thing is, none of the good things about church are linked to the religion itself, and my goal is to find a religion or philosophy that does contain teachings and practices which are useful. I think Buddhism is probably that religion. I was wondering what there is in Buddhism that could be applied to the life of an atheist (by atheist I mean someone who holds no supernatural beliefs, as I know Buddhism is an atheistic religion). I've been looking for some spirituality in my life to try to help with some issues, perhaps to help with my depression, and just to provide me with some kind of mechanism to hone my talents, my grasp on morality, intelligence, etc.
What's there to Buddhism that could be beneficial to my life?
Feel free to search meaning, beauty, poetry in any philosophical or religious stretch of mind you can find. I don't mean to stand in anyone's way when it comes to spiritual or (as I personally see it) personal growth.
Just realize that your view on buddhism and perhaps the grander 'oriëntal' more 'in tune' way of living is formed as much by your own cultural upbringing and teaching of how to view the Far East, at least as much as how the Far East itself is.
What I'm saying is; be careful when romanticising the Oriënt. Despite our own problems, it's not perfect. And to seek what you hope for may be misguided.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 20, 2017, 03:16:26 AM
I sometimes attend some of the old churches I used to go to just to experience the community I used to get when I was a believer. It's good to sing songs, to hear a powerful sermon (which can sometimes contain some good philosophical gems), to spend time with family and loved ones etc. I actually really love church. Church, I believe is the only great thing about Christianity/religion. It is especially great when you go to a good southern protestant church like the ones where I'm from.
The thing is, none of the good things about church are linked to the religion itself, and my goal is to find a religion or philosophy that does contain teachings and practices which are useful. I think Buddhism is probably that religion. I was wondering what there is in Buddhism that could be applied to the life of an atheist (by atheist I mean someone who holds no supernatural beliefs, as I know Buddhism is an atheistic religion). I've been looking for some spirituality in my life to try to help with some issues, perhaps to help with my depression, and just to provide me with some kind of mechanism to hone my talents, my grasp on morality, intelligence, etc.
What's there to Buddhism that could be beneficial to my life?
There is atheist Buddhism and atheist Hinduism. But neither of those religions are congregational. No Asian religion is, they are temple/monastery religions. To have togetherness in Buddhism or Hinduism, you have to join a monastery. Have you tried going to a Buddhist retreat for a weekend? Wish I had time to go ... but again, not for the comraderie. I am especially knowledgeable about Buddhism.
I have studied all the religions. Each has their good points, even Islam, depending on your needs. Of course in most cases, people enter a religion because of their parents, not because of deliberation. In many countries this is the only legal choice ;-( I believe that given freedom, and an unbiased upbringing ... people would sort out based on their M-B personality profile. In which case there are about 16 basic kinds of religion, if you count atheism as one of them.
Finding Your Religion by Rev Scotty McLennan (who was the basis for the Rev in Doonesbury) is the best unbiased guide to religions. You might find a used copy at the library or at Amazon.
In Buddhism ... you have to make an inner journey, not an outer one. This isn't easy, particularly if you are unaware of your personal reality (ADHD?) or have a guilty conscience. Like Dr Strange, you might discover that you are a jerk, and the only way forward is to deal with that. Beginning meditation isn't hard ... it comes in two types. The first type (do this first) is you have to learn to sit quietly and comfortably, even in a chair (not in Lotus posture) and quiet your mind. For many of us, quieting the Monkey Mind is hard. This took me years. Once you have accomplished that, and there is no reason to skip ahead, then you can do single-point meditation ... which is taking a single idea and focusing on just one idea.
In Zen this is called a koan. The koan is initially used to wear out your Monkey Mind on a paradox or nonsense. The brainiacs here wouldn't even try that, they are the Monkey Mind ;-) I didn't use a koan, though I did study Buddhist scriptures for many years. I used pranayama ... used by both Buddhists and Hindus. Breath awareness. I know from personal experience, you can become more mentally healthy (but not if you need to see a medical doctor first). Inner peace is possible, it only took me 55 years. Now I am more able to deal with the problems my life presents ... even further mental breakdowns and life/death crisis. Basically I don't get in my own way anymore. That is Enlightenment. And you don't have to be Buddhist to do that ... religion is the vehicle, not the destination.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 20, 2017, 06:00:03 AM
Feel free to search meaning, beauty, poetry in any philosophical or religious stretch of mind you can find. I don't mean to stand in anyone's way when it comes to spiritual or (as I personally see it) personal growth.
Just realize that your view on buddhism and perhaps the grander 'oriëntal' more 'in tune' way of living is formed as much by your own cultural upbringing and teaching of how to view the Far East, at least as much as how the Far East itself is.
What I'm saying is; be careful when romanticising the Oriënt. Despite our own problems, it's not perfect. And to seek what you hope for may be misguided.
I could never be a real Buddhist, because I am not Japanese etc. however much I admire or study them. It has taken a lifetime to discover inner peace, and discover to my surprise that I really am Jewish (in spite of many prior influences to the contrary). Orientalism by the Westerner, or Occidentalism by the Easterner ... are false paths.
This is an oldy but a goody .. BBC ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6KyQIo9Q7M
.. but of course, one has to see beyond the Japanese culture/way of thinking. Amida Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism are theistic. S Asian Buddhism is monastic, not lay oriented. Chan/Zen as Mahayana Buddhism, is more E Asian, and effectively atheist. The Japanese businessman, at the start of the film, saved himself from suicide, because of pranayama. I understand that, I did the same.
Sam Harris has a new book called "Waking Up". By waking up he implies a spirituality available to everyone, including atheists. I would quibble with his equivocation, because he is referring to self awareness as spirituality, and there is nothing spiritual about self awareness, except that the euphoria experienced during moments of clarity in the process of self awareness are the same as spiritual insights like feeling God's presence. Granted the moments of clarity cannot be verified as authentic and accurate perceptions, just as spiritual insights, since both are a form of "knowing" on limited understanding. They seem correct and enlightening for what that's worth. So yeah, whatever.
He frequently refers to Buddhism and sees value in meditation done according to Buddhist philosophy and I recall him writing that he has actually pursued Buddhist instruction just to experience what it might offer, and given but a limited understanding of Buddhism, I would agree, but I see Buddhism as just another route to self understanding. Whatever route is taken, I see self understanding as one of life's goals, although not second nature for any of us. I have little interest in Buddhism, but that one aspect is praiseworthy. The rest of the stuff might be mumbo jumbo and ritual. I can't say from experience, however.
And speaking of that, what you say you have enjoyed about church appears to me to be the ritual, and I believe that is a big part of the experience for many people. Myself, I never enjoyed the rituals, because it seems like they are but vaguely related to the pursuit of understanding the Devine. In fact, I was bored by the ritual of church. I saw it as trivial, and just wanted to get on with it; Save my soul or lead me to enlightenment or make something else happen.
None the less, I'm a fan of self understanding. You can knock psychiatry and counseling, but the goal of self understanding is laudable. How you get there is your choice.
Thinking about ritual some more, I think it's added to create a feeling of evoking the spirit world, which would be an integral part of communing with a deity:
"Oh, the priest is chanting. Sounds like he is calling on the spirits, just like they did in medieval monasteries. But I'm confident a priest would never summon a demon to church, so we're good here."
"Oh listen to sound of the congregation reading a passage from the King James Bible. We sound like we are all taking exactly the way Jesus talked."
"Oh my, now the pastor is jumping up and down hollering like an idiot because he's possessed by the Lord. Now everyone in the congregation is doing it too. We are all possessed by the Lord. I can feel it."
"I love to sing my heart out like an animated character in a Disney Cartoon, where magical stuff always happens."
Whether this actually works or not, it's all kind of fun and mysterious. As kids, my friends and I would stand in front of a brick wall and chant, "Open Sesame!" No passageway ever appeared, but it was great fun, and helped us build companionship.
I was never a fan of Buddhism due to how illogical it is.
Example:
"It is hot but it is not hot."
But that is extremely logical...
Quote from: Sorginak on April 20, 2017, 10:45:19 AM
I was never a fan of Buddhism due to how illogical it is.
Example:
"It is hot but it is not hot."
A 500 pound woman tanning on a beach in Florida
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 20, 2017, 03:16:26 AM
What's there to Buddhism that could be beneficial to my life?
There is a very simple rule that life has adapted as true for millennia..."do what is best for your survival". And it appears that one of the main tenets, perhaps the first, is to: "help those around you so they will help you". Selfishness rules even when it appears not to be selfish.
Quote from: aitm on April 20, 2017, 07:16:16 PM
There is a very simple rule that life has adapted as true for millennia..."do what is best for your survival". And it appears that one of the main tenets, perhaps the first, is to: "help those around you so they will help you". Selfishness rules even when it appears not to be selfish.
There is wise behavior and unwise behavior ... of course it is selfish either way.
Quote from: aitm on April 20, 2017, 07:16:16 PM
There is a very simple rule that life has adapted as true for millennia..."do what is best for your survival". And it appears that one of the main tenets, perhaps the first, is to: "help those around you so they will help you". Selfishness rules even when it appears not to be selfish.
Most religious beliefs have, at their core, basic ideas that people had for living together peacefully previously. Before religion raised the threat of "a bad afterlife" in any way you choose to define it. The success of all religions is based on thread and fear. Religion followed sensible interpersonal relationships, not religion establishing them.
Religion is merely a writing of social rules already established in society with terror thrown in for some scam control.
I choose to ignore the threats as irrational.
I've thought about converting back to Christianity just for the purpose of being accepted again. Like it or not, there is a bbenefit to religion. It helps people assemble and thrive as a cohesive unit and support system. It sucks being on the outside and being ostracized. I think becoming atheist was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I wish I could go back and not have the awakening I had that made me change my mind.
Honestly, do what's best for you, so long as it hurts no one else.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 22, 2017, 04:32:11 PM
I've thought about converting back to Christianity just for the purpose of being accepted again. Like it or not, there is a bbenefit to religion. It helps people assemble and thrive as a cohesive unit and support system. It sucks being on the outside and being ostracized. I think becoming atheist was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I wish I could go back and not have the awakening I had that made me change my mind.
Then I would suggest that you stop saying you are atheist, keep it to yourself, and go church shopping. If the feeling of belonging is that important to you, then that is one way to address that. Or join an active club of some sort--bird watching, collecting something, a book club (an active one), square dancing, dancing of any kind,----I could go on and one--just be sure whatever it is is active.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 22, 2017, 04:32:11 PM
I've thought about converting back to Christianity just for the purpose of being accepted again. Like it or not, there is a bbenefit to religion. It helps people assemble and thrive as a cohesive unit and support system. It sucks being on the outside and being ostracized. I think becoming atheist was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I wish I could go back and not have the awakening I had that made me change my mind.
I have been an atheist for 50 odd years and I have never felt like it sucked. But I don't walk around waving a flag of atheism either. You can be yourself without having to demand the world recognize it.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 22, 2017, 04:32:11 PM
I've thought about converting back to Christianity just for the purpose of being accepted again. Like it or not, there is a bbenefit to religion. It helps people assemble and thrive as a cohesive unit and support system. It sucks being on the outside and being ostracized. I think becoming atheist was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I wish I could go back and not have the awakening I had that made me change my mind.
You can't crawl back into your mother's womb ... you can't un-see things once seen. Society is fine, except for the people. I wouldn't describe my experience of Christian congregations as accepting ... just fellow Stepford wives. At least in Buddhism, you can cut your own path. Everyone here is non-conformist and usually anti-social ... so you are talking to the wrong people if you want acceptance. I get plenty of socialization thru work, I don't need a congregation for that. But I am recently back in synagogue ... but not because of the friendship ... it is more of a codependence thing, like a lot of families.
I have to keep my personal opinions mostly secret from the congregation, though being theist anyway, that doesn't amount to much. The Holy Spirit was working hard last Friday night, I spontaneously agreed with a point the rabbi was making, from my own experience ... there is a confusing mixture of metaphysical beliefs between people that interferes with understanding each other, just like here. The understanding of time in Biblical Hebrew is completely different than in English for instance.
Why are you a theist Baruch? You do realize that's dumb don't you?
No need for that toxicity. Theism is as much an expression of culture as it is "faith", and that is where B seems to come from. There is nothing stupid in being tied to your culture.
It was a joke.
Just to be clear, theism is the belief in one or more deity. It's not about being tied to your culture.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 23, 2017, 10:59:23 PM
Why are you a theist Baruch? You do realize that's dumb don't you?
Just trying to help you with Zen ...
Quote from: Baruch on April 24, 2017, 12:25:28 AM
Just trying to help you with Zen ...
You know, I think most, if not all, atheists who are former believers have gone through that initial period when they felt angry about religion and wanted to see the destruction of religion. But I can say that I personally have passed that point, and I now see the religion as something that has, and will likely always be with us as a species. I see that there are many parts of religion that have helped us succeed and survive, and have helped us live comfortable and inspired lives. As someone who will likely be an atheist for the rest of my life, I'm more focused on extracting the parts of religion that I think are good (and even necessary) for our culture, and getting rid of dogma. Like I said before, I love church, and I can't imagine the culture I was raised in without the enrichment church brings to people's lives. I want nothing more than to keep that. Lets just get people on board with science, let's get people educated on philosophy, rhetoric, and how to think rationally, and lets let them have their rich spiritual lives too. It can be done. And I think it can actually be done easily if we could just get people on board.
Superstition is superstition; mysticism is mysticism. All superstitions and mysticisms are alike. If it involves anything unreal, it isn't good for humans. Until we live in reality, we aren't advancing anywhere.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 24, 2017, 03:03:39 AM
You know, I think most, if not all, atheists who are former believers have gone through that initial period when they felt angry about religion and wanted to see the destruction of religion. But I can say that I personally have passed that point, and I now see the religion as something that has, and will likely always be with us as a species. I see that there are many parts of religion that have helped us succeed and survive, and have helped us live comfortable and inspired lives. As someone who will likely be an atheist for the rest of my life, I'm more focused on extracting the parts of religion that I think are good (and even necessary) for our culture, and getting rid of dogma. Like I said before, I love church, and I can't imagine the culture I was raised in without the enrichment church brings to people's lives. I want nothing more than to keep that. Lets just get people on board with science, let's get people educated on philosophy, rhetoric, and how to think rationally, and lets let them have their rich spiritual lives too. It can be done. And I think it can actually be done easily if we could just get people on board.
There are some Unitarian/Universalist congregations that aren't anti-Christian.
Quote from: Cavebear on April 24, 2017, 04:43:51 AM
Superstition is superstition; mysticism is mysticism. All superstitions and mysticisms are alike. If it involves anything unreal, it isn't good for humans. Until we live in reality, we aren't advancing anywhere.
A is A, B is B ... all letters are alike. If it involves any writing, it isn't good for humans. Until we live in a wordless reality, we aren't achieving the silence of meditation ;-)
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 24, 2017, 03:03:39 AM
You know, I think most, if not all, atheists who are former believers have gone through that initial period when they felt angry about religion and wanted to see the destruction of religion. But I can say that I personally have passed that point, and I now see the religion as something that has, and will likely always be with us as a species. I see that there are many parts of religion that have helped us succeed and survive, and have helped us live comfortable and inspired lives. As someone who will likely be an atheist for the rest of my life, I'm more focused on extracting the parts of religion that I think are good (and even necessary) for our culture, and getting rid of dogma. Like I said before, I love church, and I can't imagine the culture I was raised in without the enrichment church brings to people's lives. I want nothing more than to keep that. Lets just get people on board with science, let's get people educated on philosophy, rhetoric, and how to think rationally, and lets let them have their rich spiritual lives too. It can be done. And I think it can actually be done easily if we could just get people on board.
Actually, I have had that same set of feelings/thoughts; but I passed through them and am now back at hatred for and of religion. What I mean is that I think the single most destructive force in every society is the hierarchy that grows up around organized religion. And that hierarchy is what is destructive; it wants only to enhance that hierarchy and the individuals of that religion are only a means to that objective. And that objective is to be reached and maintained at all costs.
I'm not advocating superstition. I'm well aware of religion's harms. However, there are parts of religion which don't require belief in nonsense or adherence to dogma. I can tell you as someone from the south, going to church on Sunday is the best day of the week. You get up, put on some nice clothes, you drive out to church with your family, you get together, you sing songs, you express concern and love for each other, and you go home for food and hang out afterwards. Church is very enjoyable, and those parts of Christianity could be harnessed without carrying forth the preposterous beliefs.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 24, 2017, 11:07:49 AM
I'm not advocating superstition. I'm well aware of religion's harms. However, there are parts of religion which don't require belief in nonsense or adherence to dogma. I can tell you as someone from the south, going to church on Sunday is the best day of the week. You get up, put on some nice clothes, you drive out to church with your family, you get together, you sing songs, you express concern and love for each other, and you go home for food and hang out afterwards. Church is very enjoyable, and those parts of Christianity could be harnessed without carrying forth the preposterous beliefs.
Then what keeps you from it????
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 24, 2017, 10:20:34 AM
Actually, I have had that same set of feelings/thoughts; but I passed through them and am now back at hatred for and of religion. What I mean is that I think the single most destructive force in every society is the hierarchy that grows up around organized religion. And that hierarchy is what is destructive; it wants only to enhance that hierarchy and the individuals of that religion are only a means to that objective. And that objective is to be reached and maintained at all costs.
Good thing you weren't a Catholic choir boy, right?
Quote from: Baruch on April 24, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
Good thing you weren't a Catholic choir boy, right?
Absolutely! I really don't think I would have enjoyed being molested.
Quote from: Baruch on April 24, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
Good thing you weren't a Catholic choir boy, right?
Good thing I wasn't talking about Catholicism right?
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 25, 2017, 01:08:23 AM
Good thing I wasn't talking about Catholicism right?
Are you a choir boy? Do you enjoy being sexually victimized?
Buddhist: Empty your mind of everything…
Athiest: I don't believe in everything.
Buddhist: Good start!
;)
Quote from: Ananta Shesha on April 25, 2017, 02:07:12 PM
Buddhist: Empty your mind of everything…
Athiest: I don't believe in everything.
Buddhist: Good start!
;)
For this atheist you can amend your list to: Atheist: I don't believe in anything!
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 25, 2017, 07:23:38 PM
For this atheist you can amend your list to: Atheist: I don't believe in anything!
Not really ... nihilists don't believe in anything, they self contradict, they are psychotic. Descartes avoided nihilism. Even the crazy guy "who mistook his wife for a hat" thought that he had a wife ... and a hat.
Quote from: Baruch on April 25, 2017, 10:27:48 PM
Not really ... nihilists don't believe in anything, they self contradict, they are psychotic. Descartes avoided nihilism. Even the crazy guy "who mistook his wife for a hat" thought that he had a wife ... and a hat.
Yes, Baruch, the crazy guy 'thought' he had a wife--he did not 'believe' it. Many times and for many people, 'believe' and 'thought' are used interchangeably. For example, I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow, I think it will. I use reason to come to that conclusion--and when the sun fails to raise, then I'll change my thinking. Maybe semantics, but I think there is a difference. So, for me, I don't 'believe' in anything. I may think some things in error--but I don't believe anything.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 22, 2017, 04:32:11 PM
I've thought about converting back to Christianity just for the purpose of being accepted again. Like it or not, there is a bbenefit to religion. It helps people assemble and thrive as a cohesive unit and support system. It sucks being on the outside and being ostracized. I think becoming atheist was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I wish I could go back and not have the awakening I had that made me change my mind.
You could continue being atheist and still get the social benefits of religion by becoming a
Unitarian Universalist (http://www.uua.org/), I think. I thought of trying that, but I'm such a loner that I didn't really need to, so I didn't.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 23, 2017, 10:59:23 PM
Why are you a theist Baruch? You do realize that's dumb don't you?
Actually, I don't think Baruch is really a theist, because, if I'm right, theism is the belief in a theistic type of God, which is defined as Omni-everything. I doubt Baruch believes in such a God.
I don't think of deists, for example, such as many of America's founding fathers, as being theists. I don't think Baruch's belief in himself as a demi-god makes him a theist.
Doubtless he'll argue with me on this, but that just makes for more fun!
Quote from: Baruch on April 24, 2017, 07:03:06 AM
There are some Unitarian/Universalist congregations that aren't anti-Christian.
Oh, hell, now I see you beat me to it!
Quote from: Baruch on April 24, 2017, 07:04:17 AM
A is A, B is B ... all letters are alike. If it involves any writing, it isn't good for humans. Until we live in a wordless reality, we aren't achieving the silence of meditation ;-)
But we may achieve the silence of the lambs...
Quote from: Baruch on April 25, 2017, 10:27:48 PM
Not really ... nihilists don't believe in anything, they self contradict, they are psychotic. Descartes avoided nihilism. Even the crazy guy "who mistook his wife for a hat" thought that he had a wife ... and a hat.
I consider myself a nihilist, and I don't agree with your description at all. I think your concept of
nihilism (http://www.counterorder.com/) is different from that which I hold, though. And lucky for me, I never mistook my wife for a hat, though I did read the book. It was an eye-opener!
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 26, 2017, 07:24:29 PM
But we may achieve the silence of the lambs...
Don't wear my face, that is gross ;-(
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 26, 2017, 07:31:54 PM
I consider myself a nihilist, and I don't agree with your description at all. I think your concept of nihilism (http://www.counterorder.com/) is different from that which I hold, though. And lucky for me, I never mistook my wife for a hat, though I did read the book. It was an eye-opener!
So glad you asked ...
"extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence" ... taken from the Internet
So are you so skeptical as to be self contradictory? That definition would mean a nihilist doesn't only deny all belief, but all demonstrated fact. See the various definitions of realism and anti-realism under ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism
Realism is classic Platonism/Pythagoreanism vs Mathematics, where proof is about things that are real, but outside our human reality, or classically objective
Antirealism is post-classic vs Mathematics, where proof is the real, not about something else that is real, so not outside human reality, but still objective
Phenomenalism is radical empiricism vs Mathematics, where all facts are driven by sense data (Qualia), but outside our human reality
Antiphenomenalism is postmodern empiricism vs Mathematics, where all facts are within the context of human experience, including but not limited to, the post-processed sense data (post-Qualia)
I am an antiphenomenalist. So I am not a classic theist or deist ... who would have been realists ... though Anselm and Aquinas would be close to antirealists. A phenomenalist would be an atheist driven by empiricism that "there is no god" vs an atheist driven by rationalism that "there is no god" ... the former saying ... there is no god in my empirical experience, the latter saying ... there is no god that is a coherent idea. My organon is that G-d is an undeniable empirical experience, but that empirical experience isn't coherent anyway. Psychologism is the term used by Wiki ... for what I call antiphenomenalism.
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 24, 2017, 11:07:49 AM
I'm not advocating superstition. I'm well aware of religion's harms. However, there are parts of religion which don't require belief in nonsense or adherence to dogma. I can tell you as someone from the south, going to church on Sunday is the best day of the week. You get up, put on some nice clothes, you drive out to church with your family, you get together, you sing songs, you express concern and love for each other, and you go home for food and hang out afterwards. Church is very enjoyable, and those parts of Christianity could be harnessed without carrying forth the preposterous beliefs.
You could do better at a movie, a home party, or a barn-raising. Without the stupidity...
Quote from: Baruch on April 26, 2017, 11:34:30 PM
So glad you asked ...
"extreme skepticism maintaining that nothing in the world has a real existence" ... taken from the Internet
So are you so skeptical as to be self contradictory? That definition would mean a nihilist doesn't only deny all belief, but all demonstrated fact. See the various definitions of realism and anti-realism under ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism
Realism is classic Platonism/Pythagoreanism vs Mathematics, where proof is about things that are real, but outside our human reality, or classically objective
Antirealism is post-classic vs Mathematics, where proof is the real, not about something else that is real, so not outside human reality, but still objective
Phenomenalism is radical empiricism vs Mathematics, where all facts are driven by sense data (Qualia), but outside our human reality
Antiphenomenalism is postmodern empiricism vs Mathematics, where all facts are within the context of human experience, including but not limited to, the post-processed sense data (post-Qualia)
I am an antiphenomenalist. So I am not a classic theist or deist ... who would have been realists ... though Anselm and Aquinas would be close to antirealists. A phenomenalist would be an atheist driven by empiricism that "there is no god" vs an atheist driven by rationalism that "there is no god" ... the former saying ... there is no god in my empirical experience, the latter saying ... there is no god that is a coherent idea. My organon is that G-d is an undeniable empirical experience, but that empirical experience isn't coherent anyway. Psychologism is the term used by Wiki ... for what I call antiphenomenalism.
Well, my nihilism means to me that nothing whatever has any sort of "ultimate" meaning, it's all just a working out of mathematical relations, which is all that really exists, anyway. But don't ask ne where those relations came from - it's relations all the way down...
Quote from: MyelinSheath on April 23, 2017, 11:41:11 PM
Just to be clear, theism is the belief in one or more deity. It's not about being tied to your culture.
technically true but in reality...quite false.