Many religions constructed an afterlife either partially or entirety out of the fear of death and the unknowing of what happens to you when you're gone.
My question to you guys is: How do (for a lack of a better word) cope with the thought of no afterlife?
----
Do you dread your dieing day? or do you not worry about it at all?
Do you value what you do in your life more? or do you have a more exestetial way of looking at things?
I fear the pain of right before death. I actually hope I will sleep in and not wake up again some day when I'm hopefully very old. I will not be the wiser, just like all those billions of years before I was born.
Yup. I'll be dust and particulate matter again.
It has been hard for me losing people I love and knowing that they aren't "out there" watching over us, but the truth is, we're dirt after we die. There's nothing wrong with that.
Those are good points. What I'm also really curious about is how do you approach your life? Does death cripple you?... inspire you? or are you indifferent about it?
For instance, for myself:
I don't really want to think about death. I kind of hope I die peacefully of old age or something like that in the for future. I'm afraid of dieing from disease (I have a long history of cancer and other crap in my family so that worries me). And the fact that there is no afterlife, for me I like. It inspires me to do great things while I'm alive. I guess so I know I will be remembered. (sort of like my own self-fabricated afterlife). I won't exist physically and I don't beleive in ghosts so, that means for me that I don't believe that I'll be able to witness the world after I'm gone. But I want people to tell stories about me in a hundred years.
But that is what I meant about how do you deal with the thought of "afterlife/no afterlife". How does it affect your living?
Just curious...
Are you talking about dying or about being dead - you seem to be going back and forth.
I hope I don't have a painful death, or a lingering one. Dying in my sleep would be good, burning or drowning wouldn't.
Being dead? That's not existing. I didn't exist for about 14.7 billion years before I was conceived, and I expect that being dead will be just like that, so I don't think about it. Not being alive is like not having wings or not having been born on the planet of a different star - it's reality, and I don't think about alternatives to it, unless I'm just fantasizing, but then I know that it's fantasy.
Does it affect my life, knowing that I won't be alive eternally? Well ... there are a lot of things I'll never see. Even if I live to be 100, that's not all that terribly far into the future, so I'll miss manned colonies on other planets, manned travel to the planets of other stars, brain-computer interfaces (probably) ... millions of things. But, again ... that's reality. So I regret that I'll never see those things, but I'm not going to make a big fuss about it.
QuoteAre you talking about dying or about being dead - you seem to be going back and forth.
I'm talking about how the thought of no existence after you die affects your life.
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"My question to you guys is: How do (for a lack of a better word) cope with the thought of no afterlife?
What's to cope with? Its not like we have a choice in the matter. It is what it is.
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Many religions constructed an afterlife either partially or entirety out of the fear of death and the unknowing of what happens to you when you're gone.
My question to you guys is: How do (for a lack of a better word) cope with the thought of no afterlife?
----
Do you dread your dieing day? or do you not worry about it at all?
Do you value what you do in your life more? or do you have a more exestetial way of looking at things?
Since energy cannot be destroyed only converted, I don't bother to "cope" with the knowledge of no afterlife. Why worry about something that there is no control over? You see religion is all about control....even control over someone that is already dead. Religion controls the living by claiming that it has control of the dead. It's nonsensical really. So even posing the question of an afterlife is a form of trying to take control, whether it be your own life or someone elses. I don't allow people to control my life, especially those with nonsense controlling theirs!
There is no afterlife only this one so live this one and don't worry about anything else. If I worried about an afterlife, I may as well worry about other nonsensical things. Maybe I should worry about "if Batman is real, can he prevent the tatonic plates from eventually ripping the known world apart, Or should I rely on Superman for that?"
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Those are good points. What I'm also really curious about is how do you approach your life? Does death cripple you?... inspire you? or are you indifferent about it?
For instance, for myself:
I don't really want to think about death. I kind of hope I die peacefully of old age or something like that in the for future. I'm afraid of dieing from disease (I have a long history of cancer and other crap in my family so that worries me). And the fact that there is no afterlife, for me I like. It inspires me to do great things while I'm alive. I guess so I know I will be remembered. (sort of like my own self-fabricated afterlife). I won't exist physically and I don't beleive in ghosts so, that means for me that I don't believe that I'll be able to witness the world after I'm gone. But I want people to tell stories about me in a hundred years.
But that is what I meant about how do you deal with the thought of "afterlife/no afterlife". How does it affect your living?
Just curious...
I have faced death many times. Many of those times I completely froze. Most of the time I just functioned the way I was trained. I usually ignore danger unless there is a way to avoid it. Fear is a necessary emotion hardwired in our brains. You have to learn to function while being afraid. You can't function if all you think about is death or pain.
Heres a poor but adequate example. If batting you try to avoid an inside pitch but know full well that you can't avoid it, you know it's going to hurt but you accept that it's coming and just take it, trying to minimalize the damage. You treat death and pain the same way. I knew I was going to get shot two of the three times it happened, but I had know time or chance to prevent it. I took it. I didn't worry about death or pain. I couldn't. I knew if I survived the shot that I had to get help if I wanted to live. I just did the best I could at the time. That is all you can do. No ammount of worry and or prayer would make any difference except that it can keep from doing what you need to do to stay alive!
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Many religions constructed an afterlife either partially or entirety out of the fear of death and the unknowing of what happens to you when you're gone.
My question to you guys is: How do (for a lack of a better word) cope with the thought of no afterlife?
----
Do you dread your dieing day? or do you not worry about it at all?
Do you value what you do in your life more? or do you have a more exestetial way of looking at things?
We were already in oblivion before we were born and we didn't mind....so why should I mind after I'm dead?
It's been proven before that telling people they are going to die soon is the best way to motivate them to get shit done. The only thing that makes us get off our ass and accomplish something in life is the knowledge that there's only a finite amount of it.
Quote from: "Plu"It's been proven before that telling people they are going to die soon is the best way to motivate them to get shit done. The only thing that makes us get off our ass and accomplish something in life is the knowledge that there's only a finite amount of it.
"Nothing happens without a deadline." ~Journalist Proverb
Quote from: "Mermaid"Yup. I'll be dust and particulate matter again. It has been hard for me losing people I love ..
So will I also be, but I think I am better primed to bear the loss of loved one. Kabir (one of the most important Indian folk philosopher) said:
"Nav dware ka pinjara, ta mein panchhi paun;
rahibe ko acharaj karo, gaye ko acharaj kaun?"
(The cage has nine doors, in lives the wind bird;
that it remains is a wonder, what surprise if it flies away?)
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"My question to you guys is: How do (for a lack of a better word) cope with the thought of no afterlife?
----
Do you dread your dieing day? or do you not worry about it at all?
Do you value what you do in your life more?
Yes, what is there to cope with. That is the deal which all living beings have. I do not dread the day of my death. Will worrying help? In most cases there would be pain and disability before death. Yes, life is important (and short), so we need to make best use of it according to 'dharma'.
I deal with it by trying to stop it. I'm a biochemistry student, and I hope to research telomerase in the future. It's an enzyme with the ability to restore lost telomeres on DNA (the cause for almost all of the symptoms of aging.) If we could find a way to use it without causing all of the cancer, then we could be biologically immortal (car accidents and gunshots would still kill us.) I know you were looking for a more psychological answer, but the psychological side of my view of death is inseparably linked with the scientific side: I deal with the fear and angst of death by working to stop it from happening. Even if I don't ultimately succeed, it keeps me from falling into depression.
Quote from: "missingnocchi".. it keeps me from falling into depression.
Analyze, why should it cause a depression. It is natural.
Quote from: "Aupmanyav"Quote from: "missingnocchi".. it keeps me from falling into depression.
Analyze, why should it cause a depression. It is natural.
So is depression.
So to expand on this thread, do any of you even bother to contimplate death, if so how?
I take life as it comes and therefore I approach death the same way.
Now I know that the thread is "worrying about an afterlife or the lack there of", but I would guess that the majority here haven't even faced a possibility of death, or more to the point sudden death.
Sure some of you have been deathly ill. Some have been around people that died from illness, but who among you have faced death. Such a situation causes the mind to race and think about an afterlife. The saying "there are no Atheist in foxholes" is ofcourse a falsehood but it came about watching and experiencing the possibility of sudden death.
When you have convictions as strong as I or even stronger you don't contemplate an afterlife even faced with the possibility of sudden death. Sure it took a while to develope that approach. I was christian socially culturalized just like most of you. I had to make a conscience effort to find my peace with being an atheist. I had to learn(deprogram) from turning to a deity just because of a dire experience or sudden danger. I had to understand that all the christian cultural crap was just that. I was fighting years of brainwashing that started far before my birth.
Luckily I came to a realization early enough that I could combat the christian brainwashing efforts. When I first faced sudden death it was natural for me to not contemplate an afterlife. I had excercized those demons long before.
Quote from: "mykcob4"So to expand on this thread, do any of you even bother to contimplate death, if so how?
I try not to think about it. It's not like I'm overly frighened of it. I just don't want to obsess over something I don't really have much control over and is going to happen inevitably anyway. I just concentrate about doing what I want to get done while I'm here. Which sort of brings me back again to the afterlife thing... I don't live for an afterlife. In other words; I'm not going to live my life according to someone else's standards if it's not going to make me happy.
Right now I'm still kind of young. I have a long life to live and I want to make sure I'm living it on my own terms as I am now becuase it makes life enjoyable... even my toughest struggles lately have been enjoyable. Maybe not during them, but while I am in the middle of tough time, I know from my past experiences that there is going to be a huge lesson to be learned, and I'll be a better person for it and that makes it enjoyable afterwards.
(back from tangent) But yeah, I sometimes contemplate death, but only if I'm in a bad part of town at night. I don't want to get hit by a bus or get shot. That would suck. I would much rather be able to yell at kids to get off my lawn and then die of old age.
Don't turn into such an irascible old coot. When I wave to my 7 year old neighbor, her smile makes my day.
Quote from: "Colanth"Don't turn into such an irascible old coot. When I wave to my 7 year old neighbor, her smile makes my day.
Lol, I probably won't turn in to a jerk of an old man. But I WILL fake being delusional and give people poop for their birthday and other things like that.
Quote from: "mykcob4"Now I know that the thread is "worrying about an afterlife or the lack there of", but I would guess that the majority here haven't even faced a possibility of death, or more to the point sudden death.
I have.
Small aircraft and wind shear don't mix. Low altitude, fully stalled wings, controls not responding. I was watching the ocean come up at me and I realized that if the controls didn't come back and get the wings flying again, I was going in that water hard and I would not survive the event. I had about 4 or 5 solid seconds of watching the bad movie play before the tail found enough lift to get the wings flying again. I was probably at about 75ft when I got it back. The banner I was pulling was likely less than 20ft from hitting the water and making that bad situation worse.
In the 4 or 5 seconds when I was nothing more than a passenger in the aircraft I was piloting, I had an amazing number of complete and complex thoughts that my brain processed and completely digested, I would be dead, there would be a funeral, my sister and brothers would be devastated, I would end up being one of those assholes that I used to read about in NTSB reports who died from making stupid choices when he should have known better. But I didn't think at all about the afterlife or lack of it. Nor have thought much about the afterlife or lack of it sense.
Perhaps that's because I'm more comforted knowing there isn't an afterlife than I would be if I believed there was one. I understand how the thought of an afterlife makes people more comfortable because it allows them to get around the troubling thought that things will happen after they're gone which they will never see or know about. But if you really think about it, the thought of an eternal existence is far worse.
I like my down time as much as anyone I suppose. I work very long hours. And my around the house to do list is as long as most if not longer. And I've got several hobbies to focus on when all else fails. And even with all that, I still get bored sometimes. And when I get bored, I get depressed. The thought of having to keep myself working or focused or otherwise occupied on something more or less constantly for all of eternity in order to stave off boredom is just about one of the most horrifying thoughts I could imagine.
I mean you have to remember it would take about 32 years to count to one billion if you counted at the rate of 1/second which I mention here only to give some scale to how big 1 billion really is. Eternity is billions upon billions of years. As fascinating as the universe is, I don't want to have to keep myself from getting bored for that long. In fact, I don't want to do ANYTHING for that long.
I hope the exit is joyful, and I hope to never return. - Freda Kahlo
Quote from: "mykcob4"but I would guess that the majority here haven't even faced a possibility of death, or more to the point sudden death.
I cannot speak for the majority, but I have faced that possibility. I can't say I had that many complex thoughts like my husband did, the prevailing thought was "I do not want to die. I am only 15. Please do not kill me". I also pictured headlines in the local newspaper. "Teen raped and murdered near skating rink".
I may be the only person here who wants reincarnation. Sorry, but I just do. That's something I want to be real - no matter how unproven it is. Why? Cause I'm not done yet. Too much to do and too much to see. This surely cannot be all there is.
And not due to some supernatural sky daddy - no - just us returning again and again until we are ultimate, wonderful human beings and the world is a better place millions of years from now.
yeah........... it's a dream.
As for facing death - I have several times. And I thought the same thing I've typed right here in this thread.
QuoteI may be the only person here who wants reincarnation.
I'd love to have reïncarnation! I'm just not going to spend any time thinking it's real because it's unproven. But I think the concept is interesting enough, and a great way to let us experience more of life. (Of course, we'd never know. Unless there's an over-arching sense of self that has the shared experiences of all your lives. But that seems even more far out.)
Reincarnation is such an endearing thought. I picture being born again, realizing that reincarnation exists and being totally excited. Then I look down and realize I've come back as a cow. Crap, I'm made of meat and I'm delicious. Or worse yet, a crab. Even crabs don't understand why anyone would want to eat a crab. All that work for 0.000000001 oz of food. Its crazy.
Quote from: "Johan"Reincarnation is such an endearing thought. I picture being born again, realizing that reincarnation exists and being totally excited. Then I look down and realize I've come back as a cow. Crap, I'm made of meat and I'm delicious. Or worse yet, a crab. Even crabs don't understand why anyone would want to eat a crab. All that work for 0.000000001 oz of food. Its crazy.
:rollin:
thanks for the giggle
Quote from: "Johan"I was piloting, I had an amazing number of complete and complex thoughts that my brain processed and completely digested, I would be dead, there would be a funeral, my sister and brothers would be devastated, I would end up being one of those assholes that I used to read about in NTSB reports who died from making stupid choices when he should have known better.
That is exactly what happens in NDEs. The brain fast forwards one's life-film ending with a white-out with a character holding your hands and taking you through the tunnel before wash-out. I have not experienced an NDE but this is what I deduct from reports and biology when the brain shuts down one center after another to conserve Oxygen, only the thinking facility remains at the last.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Too much to do and too much to see. This surely cannot be all there is.
Well, Sabrina, that is what it is. There would be others to do what you will have left to do and to see what you will have left to see. So, smile.
Quote from: "Aupmanyav"Quote from: "Johan"I was piloting, I had an amazing number of complete and complex thoughts that my brain processed and completely digested, I would be dead, there would be a funeral, my sister and brothers would be devastated, I would end up being one of those assholes that I used to read about in NTSB reports who died from making stupid choices when he should have known better.
That is exactly what happens in NDEs. The brain fast forwards one's life-film ending with a white-out with a character holding your hands and taking you through the tunnel before wash-out. I have not experienced an NDE but this is what I deduct from reports and biology when the brain shuts down one center after another to conserve Oxygen, only the thinking facility remains at the last.Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Too much to do and too much to see. This surely cannot be all there is.
Well, Sabrina, that is what it is. There would be others to do what you will have left to do and to see what you will have left to see. So, smile.
You're absolutely correct! :-D
Quote from: "Plu"But I think the concept is interesting enough, and a great way to let us experience more of life.+
The concept is for peaceful conduct in society. Be good to enjoy pleasures in heaven, be evil and suffer in hell. Society created Gods to validate it.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"I may be the only person here who wants reincarnation. Sorry, but I just do. That's something I want to be real - no matter how unproven it is. Why? Cause I'm not done yet. Too much to do and too much to see. This surely cannot be all there is.
And not due to some supernatural sky daddy - no - just us returning again and again
Why all the fuss, Bri? Leave, return, leave, return ... I'd rather just stay here. Maybe with an artificial body that doesn't wear out. Or that can have parts easily replaced as they wear out. But I'm comfortable with who and what (aside from badly worn) I am, and I'd as soon just keep on being me until I decide that I've seen enough. Which won't be for at least a few hundred years. I've been retired for over 3 months now, and I've barely begun to unpack all my hobby stuff. At this rate I'll need about 10 years just to unpack and get the workshop set up. (But the tomatoes are doing great.)
Or I could come back young, devilishly handsome, unbelievably wealthy ...
Oh, I woke up. Back to reality.
If we fade into nonexistence, death won't bother any of us in the slightest, because we wouldn't exist.
If we get reincarnated, again death won't bother any of us at all because we wouldn't know we died.
And if we all go to hell for being atheist sinners, we can enjoy some stand up by George Carlin or Bill Hicks, attend a science lecture by Carl Sagan or Albert Einstein, and listen to some music by John Lennon or Billy Joel.
Really, no matter how it goes we win in the end.
Well, I'm perfectly open to the idea of an afterlife provided there's some evidence for it. Of course any kind of afterlife would be quite likely to be pretty terrible, particularly if you could never check out if you wanted to - so we should probably be happy that all the evidence points to no such thing being possible.
I'm not really scared of dying - given that it's at an old age - but I'd obviously prefer to live for as long as I personally wanted to. This isn't something that makes me depressed or sad - it's more like how you can't eat cake to every meal without gaining weight, getting an upset stomach and possibly developing diabetes, you know, it's just "too bad", but nothing you really lose a lot of sleep over.
And it definitely makes me appreciate every second of my life more. I guess everything would seem pretty insignificant if life just went on forever.
Also, as a Norwegian my generation is expected to have an average life expectancy of around or above 100, and I have pretty great genes - had two great great grandmothers living when I was born - so I'm aiming for 140 - at least. 8-)
And hey, technology is shooting through the roof, they could have made huge advancement in both life-extension and transhumanism by then. Keep your fingers crossed people. Maybe you can get your personality transferred to a computer and can spend the rest of eternity playing ping pong. :afro:
Quote from: "Aupmanyav"That is exactly what happens in NDEs. The brain fast forwards one's life-film ending with a white-out with a character holding your hands and taking you through the tunnel before wash-out. I have not experienced an NDE but this is what I deduct from reports and biology when the brain shuts down one center after another to conserve Oxygen, only the thinking facility remains at the last.
I had none of that. I had a ton of thoughts in those seconds. But most of them revolved around me being a fuckup for getting myself into the situation and the consequences that would come because of it.
There was no white light. There was no tunnel. There was no hand. There was a voice though. I definitely heard a voice. It was distant but it was clear. It sounded a lot like my own voice and it was saying fuck over and over. Perhaps that means we can look forward to lots of fornication in the afterlife? :P
I'm open to afterlife too. But, for now I have a real tough time actually believing it is true... although it would be nice and I would like to believe it is true.
This, for me though is the only thing I would rather not get my hopes up over and if it happens and I turn into a floating soul (or a ghost of some kind), I would be pleasently surprised.
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "WitchSabrina"I may be the only person here who wants reincarnation. Sorry, but I just do. That's something I want to be real - no matter how unproven it is. Why? Cause I'm not done yet. Too much to do and too much to see. This surely cannot be all there is.
And not due to some supernatural sky daddy - no - just us returning again and again
Why all the fuss, Bri? Leave, return, leave, return ... I'd rather just stay here. Maybe with an artificial body that doesn't wear out. Or that can have parts easily replaced as they wear out. But I'm comfortable with who and what (aside from badly worn) I am, and I'd as soon just keep on being me until I decide that I've seen enough. Which won't be for at least a few hundred years. I've been retired for over 3 months now, and I've barely begun to unpack all my hobby stuff. At this rate I'll need about 10 years just to unpack and get the workshop set up. (But the tomatoes are doing great.)
Or I could come back young, devilishly handsome, unbelievably wealthy ...
Oh, I woke up. Back to reality.
Common - we all know 1/2 my head lives in a fantasy 50% of the time. lol
Are you also half assed from riding your broom too much? Yikes! I just turned into a toad with warts and all. God help me! :twisted: He! He! Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"Are you also half assed from riding your broom too much? Yikes! I just turned into a toad with warts and all. God help me! :twisted: He! He! Solitary
Yes. :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:
(//http://aboutcalgary.ab.ca/postcard/halloween/witch_accident.jpg)
I know there's no proof of an afterlife and I'm not even interested in some god playing a role in one. Just want to think that there's more than just this one trip here. Like I said - probably cause I've not accomplished or done everything I want to do in this lifetime. The world's too fascinating to think this is all there is.
Nope. I'm comin back - if only to haunt some of you just for kicks.
lol
Quote from: "La Dolce Vita"Well, I'm perfectly open to the idea of an afterlife provided there's some evidence for it. Of course any kind of afterlife would be quite likely to be pretty terrible, particularly if you could never check out if you wanted to - so we should probably be happy that all the evidence points to no such thing being possible.
I'm not really scared of dying - given that it's at an old age - but I'd obviously prefer to live for as long as I personally wanted to. This isn't something that makes me depressed or sad - it's more like how you can't eat cake to every meal without gaining weight, getting an upset stomach and possibly developing diabetes, you know, it's just "too bad", but nothing you really lose a lot of sleep over.
And it definitely makes me appreciate every second of my life more. I guess everything would seem pretty insignificant if life just went on forever.
Also, as a Norwegian my generation is expected to have an average life expectancy of around or above 100, and I have pretty great genes - had two great great grandmothers living when I was born - so I'm aiming for 140 - at least. 8-)
And hey, technology is shooting through the roof, they could have made huge advancement in both life-extension and transhumanism by then. Keep your fingers crossed people. Maybe you can get your personality transferred to a computer and can spend the rest of eternity playing ping pong. :afro:
good post
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "Solitary"Are you also half assed from riding your broom too much? Yikes! I just turned into a toad with warts and all. God help me! :twisted: He! He! Solitary
Yes. :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:
[ Image (//http://aboutcalgary.ab.ca/postcard/halloween/witch_accident.jpg) ]
Thanks God! Or was it my friend that made her hit the tree? :twisted: :-$ Solitary
:-k I didn't exist before I was born---or did I? How would I know I didn't? If I didn't before is a fact, why is it not possible I could again and again and again just like before? The universe has no boundary and just is with no beginning or end so is eternal, so if that is so, maybe every sub atomic particle that can't be destroyed that got arranged to make me can do it again. :shock: Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary":-k I didn't exist before I was born---or did I? How would I know I didn't? If I didn't before is a fact, why is it not possible I could again and again and again just like before? The universe has no boundary and just is with no beginning or end so is eternal, so if that is so, maybe every sub atomic particle that can't be destroyed that got arranged to make me can do it again. :shock: Solitary
Gould said that if we rewound everything and did it all over again it would turn out differently. He was talking about evolution, but it applies here too.
I plan to become a cyborg. And that's not a joke, it's a serious prediction. I mean, I easily have at least another 60 years in me naturally, and by then technology and bioengineering will have advanced so much cyborgism will have become the norm. Probably. Unless we all blow ourselves up first.
It wouldn't work even if it did. The population will be so large and the supply of fresh water so low everyone will be fighting for a drop to drink---that is if you can find any food to eat---outside of soylent green. :shock: 8-[ :-$ Solitary
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "Solitary":-k I didn't exist before I was born---or did I? How would I know I didn't? If I didn't before is a fact, why is it not possible I could again and again and again just like before? The universe has no boundary and just is with no beginning or end so is eternal, so if that is so, maybe every sub atomic particle that can't be destroyed that got arranged to make me can do it again. :shock: Solitary
Gould said that if we rewound everything and did it all over again it would turn out differently. He was talking about evolution, but it applies here too.
Spoil sport! I did turn out different than I was before, I was a unicorn before. :shock: Bill
And remember, if the Chicxulub meteorite had been delayed by a few minutes, we might have dinosaurian ancestors. Who knows what little piece of space junk might affect it just a little differently next time?
I'm angry at death. Super angry. How dare death come along and kill me! But the way I see it, when someone dies, that's it. They die. They're not gone, but they're dead.
I wish that I was a full cyborg. Then I wouldn't have to worry about it because machines don't die like we do.
yeah :sigh: I know you guys are right: death=done. But I still want more.
What's that old sayin?
Wantin aint gettin
:rollin:
I don't want an afterlife. 70 years is quite enough regrets and I damned sure don't need a billion years worth of reminders..
"You fucked up Marty.." over and over and over and over and over and over...
ENOUGH ALREADY! I'm fuckin sorry! OK? :evil:
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"I don't want an afterlife. 70 years is quite enough regrets and I damned sure don't need a billion years worth of reminders..
"You fucked up Marty.." over and over and over and over and over and over...
ENOUGH ALREADY! I'm fuckin sorry! OK? :evil:
Well now.... you didn't 'fuck up' with us. So that must apply somewhere else. Here you are loved, my friend. Save that upset for the assholes of your life. (hug)
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"I don't want an afterlife. 70 years is quite enough regrets and I damned sure don't need a billion years worth of reminders..
"You fucked up Marty.." over and over and over and over and over and over...
ENOUGH ALREADY! I'm fuckin sorry! OK? :evil:
Well now.... you didn't 'fuck up' with us. So that must apply somewhere else. Here you are loved, my friend. Save that upset for the assholes of your life. (hug)
Oh stop trying to ruin my phony outrage. :lol:
My thought on this matter is that since I don't remember what it was like before I was born and that doesn't bother me, that it will be the same when I die. I won't know that i'm dead, so it won't bother me. :Hangman: :lol:
Quote from: "Satt"My thought on this matter is that since I don't remember what it was like before I was born and that doesn't bother me, that it will be the same when I die. I won't know that i'm dead, so it won't bother me. :Hangman: :lol:
but...but...but what IF we're wrong? What IF there really IS a loving, forgiving, benevolent god who burns us all for eternity for not being utterly perfect? :lol:
I have seen a lot of death unfortunately. I have started to ignore it and push those thoughts out of my mind. I will find myself drifting toward thinking about death and particular people and quickly change my thoughts. I know it's probably not THE best way of coping, but it has worked for me. One way I like to consider it is: people are transient, and that is something I have to accept, but I have found that even after an important person dies, you always seem to meet people who are just as amazing to fill their place (so to speak). After a certain person died, I fell into a state of despair and thought I'll never be able to replace this person and no one is comparable. I later found out just how wrong I was. There are so many people out there for you to meet and befriend. I actually think being an atheist helped me with accepting that. I don't believe in spirits and so I literally think there are a ton of people I could potentially develop friendships/relationships with.
In terms of myself, I am definitely afraid to die. I think I would prefer to keep myself busy and avoid pondering on it too much. You know it is inevitable so why waste such a short life spending time thinking about that.
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Quote from: "Satt"My thought on this matter is that since I don't remember what it was like before I was born and that doesn't bother me, that it will be the same when I die. I won't know that i'm dead, so it won't bother me. :Hangman: :lol:
but...but...but what IF we're wrong? What IF there really IS a loving, forgiving, benevolent god who burns us all for eternity for not being utterly perfect? :lol:
This sounds really familiar. Are you taking a stab at me? [-X :wink:
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"yeah :sigh: I know you guys are right: death=done. But I still want more.
What's that old sayin?
Wantin aint gettin
:rollin:
I get that and I think I'm right there with you. I readily accept that death=off because doing otherwise just feels like I'm trying to fool myself. But there is definitely a part of me that wants to see what's going to end up happening 120 years from now. And 180 years from now and 450 years from now and so on and so on.
But at the same time, I absolutely mean what I said earlier. The thought of having to exist for eternity is really disturbing to me. It not at all something I'd enjoy.
I just want to see what cars we're driving, or more likely are driving themselves 80 years from now. And I want to see government/society/popular culture turns into. And although I'm quite sure I'll hate it, I want to hear what the music is like.
I want to see what its like to have an iphone implanted in your eye that responds to your thoughts and projects its data right onto your retina. Actually I'll likely live to see that. But that just makes me want to see what its like when enjoying your iphone being implanted in your eye makes you an old fart who doesn't want to change with the times. Ah shit, I could conceivably live to see that too (damn you Moore's law) but you know what I mean. I want to see what life and society is like good, bad or otherwise, when life and society have gone through so many evolutions that no one alive today could possibly imagine the result.
Also I want to be a ghost so I can follow people home and see them naked. Ok not really. Actually that's the last thing I'd want. No one is sexy then they're alone in their house. Most of the time, they're disgusting and kind of gassy.
The sooner I can become a robot, the better.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"I may be the only person here who wants reincarnation.
Depends. How much say do I get when I come to roll a new character?
Quote from: "Rin Hato"I wish that I was a full cyborg. Then I wouldn't have to worry about it because machines don't die like we do.
When machines die, there's usually a spark and then all the magic blue smoke escapes.
Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Rin Hato"I wish that I was a full cyborg. Then I wouldn't have to worry about it because machines don't die like we do.
When machines die, there's usually a spark and then all the magic blue smoke escapes.
That's the way to die, right there.
Quote from: "Johan"But there is definitely a part of me that wants to see what's going to end up happening 120 years from now. And 180 years from now and 450 years from now and so on and so on.
Well, I can tell you what would happen 5 billion years from now, if that helps.
I'm not coming back for afterlife unless I get to be Elvis with a better attitude about my health and without the woo..
Quote from: "Rin Hato"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Rin Hato"I wish that I was a full cyborg. Then I wouldn't have to worry about it because machines don't die like we do.
When machines die, there's usually a spark and then all the magic blue smoke escapes.
That's the way to die, right there.
That's the way electronics die. Machines usually die screaming in agony with much tearing of metal and grinding of gears.
Quote from: "jansnyder"I like Cormac McCarthy's view on death, that he writes about death, because he doesnt like fantasy. Perhaps if we lived in absolute objectivity, we would not complain or fear death at all
"Death" is a broad word. I don't fear being dead, any more than I feared not having been conceived.
I fear dying. I've seen too many agonizing deaths to be complacent about it. If I go to sleep one night and never wake up, I wouldn't (assuming it were possible) have any complaint, as long as my family was okay after my death. But slowly burning or drowning or dying of a slowly-progressing, very painful, cancer isn't something I'd want to experience.
Dying, being dead - two totally different things, both referred to by the word "death".
How do you cope with the thought of no afterlife?
I treat it as I do with the thought of afterlife. They are thoughts about a matter where truth is nonascertainable, and so it's not much more important than musings of what the numerical value of the variables for x+y=10 could be.
If the question was tinged with a feeling of inevitability of oblivion, you would be getting ahead of yourself by being so convinced. Theoretical physicists acknowledge there are higher spatial dimensions, but have not yet determined how many, much less come to a conclusive model that precludes an idea of material within them interacting and connecting with our readily accessible bodies. Material monism does not come with a ledger that accounts for all material within reality. As a tangential reminder, anthropocentrism is a cult quality.
Would the experiences of an amnesiac prior to the onset of amnesia be 'retconned' to not have occurred due to the subjective loss of memory? If you were to read a 1st person narrative where the character forgets their past, you would not expect previous pages to vanish. If we accept continuity, and perishability of memory then how can one discern whether they have "been" in oblivion for billions of years before their current life, or whether their subjective center has had multiple incarnates throughout time? What could indicate a difference between not existing and a subjective experience devoid of senses, comprehension, thought, memory, awareness of time? Isn't the common way to convey the idea of oblivion to describe such a "nudity" of one's subjectivity? From what can one assert the state is necessarily permanent?
Pondering aside, a claim for either has extraordinary burden of proof. Personally, I would not be so arrogant as to assert a claim I cannot legitimately defend, even if reinforced by popular opinion.
All that can be constructively done from honest meditation on the topic is holding optimism. I can only hope not to be thrown back into a world dominated by greedy and sadistic sociopaths, enabled by easily herded flippant narcissists.
I'm hoping to wake up on Riverworld
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld)
I read one of those books that I bought from a library sale, it was awesome. I had no idea it was a series :o
Quote from: "impulse"All that can be constructively done from honest meditation on the topic is holding optimism. I can only hope not to be thrown back into a world dominated by greedy and sadistic sociopaths, enabled by easily herded flippant narcissists.
All that can be
logically (and rationally) done is rejection of fantasies like an afterlife. Anything is possible, but not everything is reasonable.
Excuse me for being so frank, or don't, I'll be excusing myself anyhow as this does not appear to be a place where acknowledging the unknown is considered reasonable ; arbitrary rejection of the state of facts available, and the potential carried within what is not yet known, and what cannot be inducted, is not logical - it's heuristic and much more prone to bias and misfire than reason.
Quote from: "impulse"Excuse me for being so frank, or don't, I'll be excusing myself anyhow as this does not appear to be a place where acknowledging the unknown is considered reasonable
It's not. The default position to a fantastic bald assertion is "no". And the afterlife is just such an assertion.
I always hear that the fear of death is fear of the unknown, but the fact is we do know what death is and that is why we fear it. It's the fear of dying and the finality of doing it which is permanent, and not coming back like we can in a video game. We go to sleep at night, or go under anesthesia, where we don't exist when we are unconscious only our bodies do. If you are not a materialist then you think you don't die that just your body does. Without a body or brain how could you become conscious again when they are required to do so. If not, explain how that could be so. If our consciousness is separate from our brain and body, how can drugs or a bump on the head effect it? Solitary
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "impulse"Excuse me for being so frank, or don't, I'll be excusing myself anyhow as this does not appear to be a place where acknowledging the unknown is considered reasonable
It's not. The default position to a fantastic bald assertion is "no". And the afterlife is just such an assertion.
I have nothing better to do it turns out. One more brick wall to slam my head into doesn't make a difference.
Are you speaking of null hypothesis? Ockham's razor? These would be misapplied here, and if you don't understand why, you should do some actual research on those. While I'm still willing to discuss this, I'm no longer willing to bring the information on a silver platter to those giving off the impression they are unwilling to correct a misconception they hold.
If it's not anything like that, please tell me where you learned this, or how you came to such a conclusion that there should be such a thing as a "default position" that isn't "[blank]."
Quote from: "Solitary"I always hear that the fear of death is fear of the unknown, but the fact is we do know what death is and that is why we fear it. It's the fear of dying and the finality of doing it which is permanent, and not coming back like we can in a video game. We go to sleep at night, or go under anesthesia, where we don't exist when we are unconscious only our bodies do. If you are not a materialist then you think you don't die that just your body does. Without a body or brain how could you become conscious again when they are required to do so. If not, explain how that could be so. If our consciousness is separate from our brain and body, how can drugs or a bump on the head effect it? Solitary
I attempted to explain this already, I will try to do better.
The extent that we understand death is a loss of body and all that comes with the body; senses, memories, etc.
An understanding of self is not included with the understanding of death. There isn't a way to isolate subjectivity. Merely defining self as the body, and using that definition as an authority is a cop out from the stress of not knowing.
QuoteWe go to sleep at night, or go under anesthesia, where we don't exist when we are unconscious only our bodies do.
How ever did you come to such a conclusion? Are you telling me you can discern the difference between not existing and the subjective experience of having no available senses?
The materialist view does not exclude an independent subjective self just by regarding that there is no immaterial substance. You would have to determine there is no other physical substance that can possibly be responsible for subjectivity in order to conclude that subjectivity is sourced from the same place as the senses it gathers, the body.
The reason string theory exists is because a physical model
requires some amount of higher spatial dimensions beyond 3. The branes of M theory are to be physical, there's no rule of necessary exclusion of physical matter from these higher dimensions. We don't know which model is the right fit, but that doesn't justify an argument from ignorance.
I'm not conflating consciousness with subjectivity. Subjectivity would be the perspective, and consciousness would be an attribute upon that perspective. If a different body took over in catering consciousness, how would the perspective ever know, when memory is part of bodies, not perspective?
As a reminder, my advocacy is for "I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO US AFTER WE DIE" and no matter where I go, it gets treated as UNREASONABLE.
IT KIND OF PISSES ME OFF.
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"QuoteAre you talking about dying or about being dead - you seem to be going back and forth.
I'm talking about how the thought of no existence after you die affects your life.
Ok that's straightforward enough. I am relieved and comforted by that thought. My feelings are colored by the fact that I've had a long term problem with depression and feel that life is, at best, a mixed blessing.
Quote from: "impulse"If it's not anything like that, please tell me where you learned this, or how you came to such a conclusion that there should be such a thing as a "default position" that isn't "[blank]."
The fact that not accepting an assertion IS "[blank]". But, as you said, I'm no longer willing to provide answers on a silver platter to those unwilling to apply at least a little thought to the matter.
Everyone here acknowledges the unknown. We acknowledge it as "unknown". The point is you can postulate anything you want and it still comes back unknown. Riverworld is just as possible as heaven.
Quote from: "impulse"As a reminder, my advocacy is for "I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO US AFTER WE DIE" and no matter where I go, it gets treated as UNREASONABLE. IT KIND OF PISSES ME OFF.
Capital letters are bad enough, no need to make them bold. It should not piss you. It is actually unreasonable to accept existence of 'soul'; and about the body, we all know it very well.
QuoteAs a reminder, my advocacy is for "I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO US AFTER WE DIE"
That seems perfectly reasonable to me. As long as you don't try to fill the unknown with answers, it's a good position.
(Of course there is always the problem of relevance which factors in decisions you make regarding the topic. That's the main problem with "I do not know" when it comes to things that still factor into your life, such as the topic of dying... you still need to hold a position on the topic that you use to color your decisions, even if you realise that it's only held out of neccesity. Otherwise you would not be able to reach any decisions.)
There are people who have clinically died and were resuscitated. So we have testimony's of what happens when we die, It's unfortunate that people have encountered, church going people who have judged them or looked down on them, the truth is none of us are perfect, not even Christians. I urge you investigate on your own there are many testimonials, and draw your own conclusions. Here are a couple links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeuguDgC6tQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeuguDgC6tQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg)
We actually have a pretty good understanding of what happens when your brain is deprived of oxygen, which account for the whole "tunnel of light" thing. And we know that people who feel they were "floating above themselves" weren't actually do so, because it has been tested by painting symbols in places where the person could not see them, but anyone "floating above themselves" definately would, and nobody was ever able to tell anyone what the symbols were.
Instead of listening to the ramblings of people whose brains were shutting down, you'd do better to check out the actual science behind what happens when your brain is shutting itself down.
I really dislike that some people act like I am wrong to worry about death, and worry about life will go on without me. I can't even say that I believe an atheist would not think/worry about it. Regardless, I appreciate every single day. I truly do. And I call my mom every day, and all but kiss this wonderful earth each and every day in appreciation for being able to enjoy it. I hope with everything that I will be able to bear children for my husband. Part of me thinks that once/if I have them, then I will be able to handle the reality of being gone easier. Knowing that my DNA will still exist. I don't think I will ever be able to go a day without thinking about this one life, and hoping that while I am hear that most or all of my dreams come true. And I hope I can hold on to good health. I have been blessed and I hope the same for all people.
Part of the clinical definition of death is "irreversibility"- that is, the person cannot be resuscitated. Therefore, anyone who claims to have been clinically dead is either lying or misinformed.
There is such a thing as brain death, which means no or very little brain activity. This is measured via EEG or a reflex test, and is equivalent to a deep coma. Occasionally, people recover from this state, but those people were never really dead in the first place.
Similarly, people can recover from a lack of a pulse. Sometimes the time between flatlining and resuscitation can be as long as several hours if the body is immersed in frigid water. Again, those people were never dead by the clinical definition. It takes more than an absence of pulse or brain activity to be considered "dead".
TL;DR if someone is "clinically dead", then by definition you can start measuring for a coffin, 'cause there ain't nobody home.
Quote from: "Graceless"Similarly, people can recover from a lack of a pulse. Sometimes the time between flatlining and resuscitation can be as long as several hours if the body is immersed in frigid water. Again, those people were never dead by the clinical definition. It takes more than an absence of pulse or brain activity to be considered "dead".
AFAIK, Grace, the definition of death is still cessation of cerebral activity. (Which doesn't happen during NDE.) And people who have had flat EEGs have been resuscitated after short periods. (And have never reported religious experiences.)
Oops. I was taught differently during my training as an EMT, but after reading more thoroughly it seems to be more complicated.
Legal death occurs either when a clinically dead person is deemed impossible to resuscitate, or when a brain-dead person is deemed to have no chance of returning to consciousness. Of course, this determination is somewhat subjective, depends on the laws of the region, and is occasionally wrong.
Brain death is defined as the absence of meaningful activity on an EEG (minimal activity may be present, and usually means that only the brain stem is functioning). However, many jurisdictions do not actually require an EEG to determine brain death; a reflex test is considered to be sufficient.
Clinical death is comparatively straightforward: it refers to the cessation of both breathing and heartbeat.
People do sometimes report NDEs after being recovering from apparent brain death. Whether these people are being truthful is another matter.
So I guess I learned something new today! :wink:
Quote from: "Graceless"People do sometimes report NDEs after being recovering from apparent brain death. Whether these people are being truthful is another matter.
They are - they THINK they experience what they report. But we know what causes NDEs, and it's NOT seeing heaven. (An NDE is no more objectively real than a dream - because that's exactly what it is.) People raised as other-than-Christian-theists (in a religion that has an afterlife) report seeing THEIR religion's version of the afterlife. People raised with no afterlife belief don't usually have visions of an afterlife.
So we're still back to the same confirmation bias type of thing.
That's what I was referring to. People see what they want to see; even more so when not firing on all cylinders.
Quote from: "WitchSabrina"I may be the only person here who wants reincarnation. Sorry, but I just do. That's something I want to be real - no matter how unproven it is. Why? Cause I'm not done yet. Too much to do and too much to see. This surely cannot be all there is.
And not due to some supernatural sky daddy - no - just us returning again and again until we are ultimate, wonderful human beings and the world is a better place millions of years from now.
yeah........... it's a dream.
As for facing death - I have several times. And I thought the same thing I've typed right here in this thread.
I have a similar hope. I have some weird beliefs though: I believe that "I" will exist as long as someone calls himself "me". I hope that there might even be a heaven-like dream in the womb that transfers us from one life to the next. But I am convinced that there is no unearthly "afterlife". If I am wrong about what happens then no harm done in hoping for it. I still live my life like it's the only one.
Quote from: "fingerscrossed2013"I hope with everything that I will be able to bear children for my husband. Part of me thinks that once/if I have them, then I will be able to handle the reality of being gone easier. Knowing that my DNA will still exist.
Perfect anti-dote for death. In the lines of a Hindi song:
"Tujhe suraj kahu ya chanda, tujhe dip kahu ya tara
Meraa nam karega roshan, jag me meraa raj dulara
Mere bad bhee is duniya mein, zinda meraa nam rahega
Jo bhee tujhko dekhega, tujhe meraa lal kahega
Tere rup me mil jayega, mujhko jivan do bara"(Should I call you sun or moon, or a lamp or a star
You will make my name shine, my dear, in the world
Even after me in the world, my name would exist
Whoever will see you, will call you my son
In your form I will get, a new life again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsiufnfBgQc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsiufnfBgQc) - Third and last stanza.
With age and children, you would loose the fright of death.
Quote from: "impulse"If the question was tinged with a feeling of inevitability of oblivion, you would be getting ahead of yourself by being so convinced.
What's the alternative?