On Twitter I saw this tweet (https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/843860289393168384?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) with this pic...
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O2nupxvYvUQ/WNA5KwswAqI/AAAAAAAABg0/gdK_lsn6hkEBsvubUkD1VjBUrBZKuPzBgCLcB/s800/Public_Spending_Opportunity_Cost_Pragmatarianism_Wall_Trump_National_Endowment_Art.jpg)
There's no such thing as a free lunch. The massive amount of resources needed to build a giant wall aren't going to magically appear out of thin air. They are going to be taken from other endeavors. However, this is just as true for the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) as it is for a giant wall. Here's how I illustrated this...
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-H4n0xvm2Hx4/WNA6NTe076I/AAAAAAAABg8/FYnFRQl0TsokvoyQToqDoFImzLN--fwEACLcB/s800/National_Endowment_For_The_Arts_Pragmatarianism_Trump_Wall_Opportunity_Cost_Trade-Offs.jpg)
If you genuinely appreciate that every endeavor is going to take resources away from other endeavors... then clearly the goal should be to take resources away from the least valuable endeavors. This is Quiggin's Implied Rule of Economics (QIRE).
Imagine that Batman is at home twiddling his thumbs. In this case, there would be absolutely no problem with having him rescue a cat from a tree. Batman would be put to a more valuable use. But what if Batman isn't at home twiddling his thumbs? What if he is actually trying to save Gotham from imminent destruction? Then it would be a terrible idea for him to stop what he's doing in order to rescue a cat from a tree. The opportunity cost would be way too high.
So the most important question is... how do we determine the actual value of an endeavor?
Market = Everybody decides for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable
Not-market = Everybody does not decide for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable
How many places are missing a market? The public sector is missing a market. Taxpayers can't decide for themselves, with their own taxes, which trade-offs are acceptable.
Netflix is also missing a market. Subscribers can't decide for themselves, with their own fees, which trade-offs are acceptable. The NY Times is also missing a market. So is this forum.
There's a multitude of places that are missing markets. Therefore...
A. Markets aren't the best way to determine the value of endeavors?
B. In some cases it's not necessary to know the value of endeavors?
C. People don't understand the benefit of using markets to determine the value of endeavors?
Yes, anything millionaires don't care for, not just projects, but including the Poor themselves ... will be eliminated. Back to Lady Bird making America beautiful again.
Zero-sum fallacy.
when elected representatives make tax laws or decide how to spend money without consulting the people they represent, they aint representing. They replace a republic with an elected aristocracy. Part of what causes our problems. Looking at government as one piece taking away money from another piece is sideways thinking. Collecting taxes first then deciding afterwards how to spend the money,is backwards thinking. The American people are supposed to know that every law on the books requires a certain amount of money to enforce it correctly. The government should be telling the people how much a particular law costs, then if they don't like the price they should be trying to get rid of that law. If they think the benefit of the law is worth the price then they should expect to have to pay the tax associated.
There would be a whole lot less BS if the representatives were actually representin instead of makin up their own storyline
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.
btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
When Congressmen are elected from gerrymandered districts, there is not much choice of party. The primaries are everything. And when the gerrymandered district primaries where 10% of the voters vote are a contest of who can move farthest to the Right or Left that does not represent the general voters.
General voter representation will only be effective when voting is made easiest for all, when voting places are convenient for all, and when voting intimidation is ended. And when BIG MONEY is forced out of campaigns.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 22, 2017, 03:07:53 AM
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.
btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
A decade ago I started an online community/gallery for artists. It had around 2000 artists. There was always the big issue of deciding whose artwork to put on the homepage. Of course every artist wanted their artwork to be on the homepage because it received by far the most traffic. I think we elected members to decide whose art to put on the homepage. Eventually the site was hit with a pretty big SQL injection attack and it was no longer worth it for me to continue running and maintaining the site. I don't even want to think about how much money I lost in that endeavor.
Honestly though I'd like to try again. I love art. But this time, the artwork for the homepage would be chosen by crowdfunding. Members would pay a reasonable monthly fee of $1 dollar. But they could choose which artwork they spent their fees on. With this system, the most valuable artwork would be displayed on the homepage. Visitors could filter the homepage to see the most valuable art that had been submitted in the past week, month, year or all time.
Artists would be more than welcome to donate money to the website to help increase the value of their art or other people's art. Their favorite art would get more exposure and the website would get more funding to keep the site running and maintained.
From my perspective, it would be a lot better than Patreon. Patreon is based on the premise that you don't value every artist equally... but you do value an artist's work equally. Nobody values any artist's work equally. So Patreon prevents supporters from providing their favorite artists with more specific monetary feedback on their work.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 22, 2017, 12:01:22 AM
On Twitter I saw this tweet (https://twitter.com/bill_easterly/status/843860289393168384?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) with this pic...
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O2nupxvYvUQ/WNA5KwswAqI/AAAAAAAABg0/gdK_lsn6hkEBsvubUkD1VjBUrBZKuPzBgCLcB/s800/Public_Spending_Opportunity_Cost_Pragmatarianism_Wall_Trump_National_Endowment_Art.jpg)
There's no such thing as a free lunch. The massive amount of resources needed to build a giant wall aren't going to magically appear out of thin air. They are going to be taken from other endeavors. However, this is just as true for the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) as it is for a giant wall. Here's how I illustrated this...
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-H4n0xvm2Hx4/WNA6NTe076I/AAAAAAAABg8/FYnFRQl0TsokvoyQToqDoFImzLN--fwEACLcB/s800/National_Endowment_For_The_Arts_Pragmatarianism_Trump_Wall_Opportunity_Cost_Trade-Offs.jpg)
If you genuinely appreciate that every endeavor is going to take resources away from other endeavors... then clearly the goal should be to take resources away from the least valuable endeavors. This is Quiggin's Implied Rule of Economics (QIRE).
Imagine that Batman is at home twiddling his thumbs. In this case, there would be absolutely no problem with having him rescue a cat from a tree. Batman would be put to a more valuable use. But what if Batman isn't at home twiddling his thumbs? What if he is actually trying to save Gotham from imminent destruction? Then it would be a terrible idea for him to stop what he's doing in order to rescue a cat from a tree. The opportunity cost would be way too high.
So the most important question is... how do we determine the actual value of an endeavor?
Market = Everybody decides for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable
Not-market = Everybody does not decide for themselves, with their own money, which trade-offs are acceptable
How many places are missing a market? The public sector is missing a market. Taxpayers can't decide for themselves, with their own taxes, which trade-offs are acceptable.
Netflix is also missing a market. Subscribers can't decide for themselves, with their own fees, which trade-offs are acceptable. The NY Times is also missing a market. So is this forum.
There's a multitude of places that are missing markets. Therefore...
A. Markets aren't the best way to determine the value of endeavors?
B. In some cases it's not necessary to know the value of endeavors?
C. People don't understand the benefit of using markets to determine the value of endeavors?
I think I understand what you're saying, Brother, just don't go all hardcore libertarian on us, like JH.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 22, 2017, 03:11:26 AM
When Congressmen are elected from gerrymandered districts, there is not much choice of party. The primaries are everything. And when the gerrymandered district primaries where 10% of the voters vote are a contest of who can move farthest to the Right or Left that does not represent the general voters.
General voter representation will only be effective when voting is made easiest for all, when voting places are convenient for all, and when voting intimidation is ended. And when BIG MONEY is forced out of campaigns.
As someone who's nearby(20 minute walk, in a poor area of town) polling place was closed, just prior to the last election, I can agree with this, from experience.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on March 22, 2017, 04:50:47 AM
As someone who's nearby(20 minute walk, in a poor area of town) polling place was closed, just prior to the last election, I can agree with this, from experience.
That's what needs to be stopped!
Im confused those pictures of "art" are not really worth a community garden or 100 computer or 2000 meals. Probaly .50 to 5 bucks at best and if salary orientd 10 dollars thats it. Third cost 2 cents because its shit.
Also free lunch does exist because i ate plenty.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on March 22, 2017, 04:50:47 AM
As someone who's nearby(20 minute walk, in a poor area of town) polling place was closed, just prior to the last election, I can agree with this, from experience.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 22, 2017, 05:06:19 AM
That's what needs to be stopped!
Over here we don't have freedom to vote, but a duty to vote. If you don't you risk serious fines.
Despite none of our parties being what I wholeheartedly support, I've never minded being forced to vote.
Quote from: Atheon on March 22, 2017, 01:25:56 AM
Zero-sum fallacy.
Accounting fallacy ... free cell phones, free health care, free everything ... for China ... USA works for China.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 22, 2017, 03:11:26 AM
When Congressmen are elected from gerrymandered districts, there is not much choice of party. The primaries are everything. And when the gerrymandered district primaries where 10% of the voters vote are a contest of who can move farthest to the Right or Left that does not represent the general voters.
General voter representation will only be effective when voting is made easiest for all, when voting places are convenient for all, and when voting intimidation is ended. And when BIG MONEY is forced out of campaigns.
I am sure you can manage that, Vladimir Ilich. Death to the Aristocracy ... and the Kulaks too (sarc). Please put is on the agenda of the next Central Committee meeting, Comrade ;-)
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 22, 2017, 03:07:53 AM
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.
btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
You can decorate the cattle cars with hip graffiti, on the way out of town ;-( (sarc) The D and R party ... want revolution. Ever see Dr Zhivago?
Quote from: Cavebear on March 22, 2017, 05:06:19 AM
That's what needs to be stopped!
All politics is local. I am able to vote 3 days before the election in my district ... avoids the crowds. Of course one could make elections national or local holidays (depending on the election). This fight was going on in Ancient Athens ... it will never stop! Conservative - rich enslave the poor. Liberal - the poor enslave the rich. Both are in favor of slavery. That is the underlying problem ... America and its ongoing slavery of itself, and the whole world. We are Exceptional! The World owes us a cushy living!
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 22, 2017, 05:43:52 AM
Over here we don't have freedom to vote, but a duty to vote. If you don't you risk serious fines.
Despite none of our parties being what I wholeheartedly support, I've never minded being forced to vote.
And this is why Europeans are slaves. If Americans were really free, we would have anarchs-capitalism aka organized crime. Oh ... we have that already, cleverly disguised.
How would this fund the decoration of public spaces? Everybody uses them, but would anyone contribute to decorating them?
Quote from: Jason78 on March 23, 2017, 02:54:46 PM
How would this fund the decoration of public spaces? Everybody uses them, but would anyone contribute to decorating them?
Churches would. Fucking dead guys hanging from crosses everywhere you look...
Quote from: Jason78 on March 23, 2017, 02:54:46 PM
How would this fund the decoration of public spaces? Everybody uses them, but would anyone contribute to decorating them?
Drug thugs do so regularly .. in jive code.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 22, 2017, 05:43:52 AM
Over here we don't have freedom to vote, but a duty to vote. If you don't you risk serious fines.
Despite none of our parties being what I wholeheartedly support, I've never minded being forced to vote.
It vaguely bothers me to read about being forced to vote. Everyone should WANT to vote. I positively look forward to voting each and every time possible.
I understand the intent. If nearly everyone votes, it is REALLY hard to complain afterwards. But the forced part just doesn't seem quite right.
I chose not to vote in ONE election. Carter vs Reagan vs Anderson in 1980. I supported the 3rd Party candidate Anderson. Mt voting line was 3 hours long and Anderson didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. So I didn't vote.
It bothers me to this day that I didn't stay in line and vote anyway!
The good news is that voting lines in Maryland got shorter fast after more polling places were set up. Last election, I was in and out in 5 minutes... It should be like THAT everywhere.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 24, 2017, 03:47:01 AM
It vaguely bothers me to read about being forced to vote. Everyone should WANT to vote. I positively look forward to voting each and every time possible.
I understand the intent. If nearly everyone votes, it is REALLY hard to complain afterwards. But the forced part just doesn't seem quite right.
I chose not to vote in ONE election. Carter vs Reagan vs Anderson in 1980. I supported the 3rd Party candidate Anderson. Mt voting line was 3 hours long and Anderson didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. So I didn't vote.
It bothers me to this day that I didn't stay in line and vote anyway!
I get your point. I do. But I think perception is majorly formed by what system you grew up in. Freedom is important. Extremely important.
But as a civilian and a member of society, you also have duties. Voting, here, is concidered such a civic duty. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Turns out I was wrong, by the way. We don't have the duty to vote. One can still refuse to vote or vote 'blank'. (And every time, you do have 'pirate-parties', existing on a joke or a genuine desire to give people the chance to cast aside their vote in protest.)
But we do have the duty to show up for the voting. Not showing up is what can get you the fine. So if you're there, you might as well cast a real vote or one for the pirates, yarrr.
Also, historically speaking, the reason why we have this duty to show up and either cast a vote or cast blank, is not because then no-one gets to complain. It was demanded by the socialist party to ensure that the rich wouldn't be the only ones to effectively go vote, nor that they could prohibit their workers of their factories etc to go from casting their vote. It originally was a way to protect average Joe.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 24, 2017, 04:06:22 AM
I get your point. I do. But I think perception is majorly formed by what system you grew up in. Freedom is important. Extremely important.
But as a civilian and a member of society, you also have duties. Voting, here, is concidered such a civic duty. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Turns out I was wrong, by the way. We don't have the duty to vote. One can still refuse to vote or vote 'blank'. (And every time, you do have 'pirate-parties', existing on a joke or a genuine desire to give people the chance to cast aside their vote in protest.)
But we do have the duty to show up for the voting. Not showing up is what can get you the fine. So if you're there, you might as well cast a real vote or one for the pirates, yarrr.
Also, historically speaking, the reason why we have this duty to show up and either cast a vote or cast blank, is not because then no-one gets to complain. It was demanded by the socialist party to ensure that the rich wouldn't be the only ones to effectively go vote, nor that they could prohibit their workers of their factories etc to go from casting their vote. It originally was a way to protect average Joe.
I accept the major points of your post. And your society is not exactly mine, so I have to accept your own description of it. But I have questions.
If voting is widely accepted as a civic duty, why are there penalties? A broad acceptance of voting as a civic duty should get into the 90% without penalty. That should be good enough to represent the broad swath of the possible voters.
How you you feel about your government if the voting levels fell to 50% and people just paid the fee for not bothering to vote. Would you support raising the non-voting penalty or promote campaigns to increase voting?
Here in the US, we don't have the penalty fee, but our voting is about 50%. Part of that is politicians who want to restrict voting to their supporters.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 24, 2017, 04:20:51 AM
I accept the major points of your post. And your society is not exactly mine, so I have to accept your own description of it. But I have questions.
If voting is widely accepted as a civic duty, why are there penalties? A broad acceptance of voting as a civic duty should get into the 90% without penalty. That should be good enough to represent the broad swath of the possible voters.
How you you feel about your government if the voting levels fell to 50% and people just paid the fee for not bothering to vote. Would you support raising the non-voting penalty or promote campaigns to increase voting?
Here in the US, we don't have the penalty fee, but our voting is about 50%. Part of that is politicians who want to restrict voting to their supporters.
It's a relatively low penalty by the way. Like, thirty euro's. I can't say how many voter's we'd have with freedom to vote, though I've read estimates placing it to 70%, instead of what we now have into 90% of eligeable voters showing up. At which point, it is important to note that there are people too who'd prefer it to not have it be mandatory. As times have changed, the original reason for it being a duty isn't that relevant anymore, after all. Those who'd prefer it to be not a duty aren't the majority, though. As far as I know. It's hard to describe the political factions more interested in making it a freedom to vote, as ours don't exactly align with your two-party system. But they are more 'liberal' parties like the 'open VLD' (Open Flemish Liberals and Democrats) and more (leaning towards) 'republican' parties like the NVA (New Flemish Alliance, currently the largest party in Flanders on the political level, though not in membership) and the far-out right wing party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interests (bad translation, but hard to translate). More opposed to it are CD&V (Christian-Democratic & Flemish, Groen (green), SP. A (Socialist Party Different(ly viewed)) and the PVDA (Labour Party).
But anyways, that all aside, is tying penalties to not performing duties a strange thing to do? If at my work I fail to do my duties, without valid reason, and thus fuck over a cliënt, I'd expect getting some form of 'punishment' to get back to me regarding this. Being a citizen is different but alike. I have responsibilities and I must uphold these as I would ask others to uphold theirs. And a fine for breaking that duty is just like any other form of reprimandation. At least that's how I see it. If that makes sense.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 24, 2017, 04:06:22 AM
I get your point. I do. But I think perception is majorly formed by what system you grew up in. Freedom is important. Extremely important.
But as a civilian and a member of society, you also have duties. Voting, here, is concidered such a civic duty. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
Turns out I was wrong, by the way. We don't have the duty to vote. One can still refuse to vote or vote 'blank'. (And every time, you do have 'pirate-parties', existing on a joke or a genuine desire to give people the chance to cast aside their vote in protest.)
But we do have the duty to show up for the voting. Not showing up is what can get you the fine. So if you're there, you might as well cast a real vote or one for the pirates, yarrr.
Also, historically speaking, the reason why we have this duty to show up and either cast a vote or cast blank, is not because then no-one gets to complain. It was demanded by the socialist party to ensure that the rich wouldn't be the only ones to effectively go vote, nor that they could prohibit their workers of their factories etc to go from casting their vote. It originally was a way to protect average Joe.
Americans don't believe in duty to society or the State. Anarchists.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 24, 2017, 07:16:49 AM
It's a relatively low penalty by the way. Like, thirty euro's. I can't say how many voter's we'd have with freedom to vote, though I've read estimates placing it to 70%, instead of what we now have into 90% of eligeable voters showing up. At which point, it is important to note that there are people too who'd prefer it to not have it be mandatory. As times have changed, the original reason for it being a duty isn't that relevant anymore, after all. Those who'd prefer it to be not a duty aren't the majority, though. As far as I know. It's hard to describe the political factions more interested in making it a freedom to vote, as ours don't exactly align with your two-party system. But they are more 'liberal' parties like the 'open VLD' (Open Flemish Liberals and Democrats) and more (leaning towards) 'republican' parties like the NVA (New Flemish Alliance, currently the largest party in Flanders on the political level, though not in membership) and the far-out right wing party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interests (bad translation, but hard to translate). More opposed to it are CD&V (Christian-Democratic & Flemish, Groen (green), SP. A (Socialist Party Different(ly viewed)) and the PVDA (Labour Party).
But anyways, that all aside, is tying penalties to not performing duties a strange thing to do? If at my work I fail to do my duties, without valid reason, and thus fuck over a cliënt, I'd expect getting some form of 'punishment' to get back to me regarding this. Being a citizen is different but alike. I have responsibilities and I must uphold these as I would ask others to uphold theirs. And a fine for breaking that duty is just like any other form of reprimandation. At least that's how I see it. If that makes sense.
I see voting as more of a "right" than a "duty". Granted, there is a sense of duty to it for ME. Too many here don't "exercise" that right, but I don't see it as forced.
Quote from: Baruch on March 22, 2017, 07:21:36 AM
You can decorate the cattle cars with hip graffiti, on the way out of town ;-( (sarc) The D and R party ... want revolution. Ever see Dr Zhivago?
I've watched Zhivago several times and the ending is still uncertain. But your slightly main point seems to br that both Dems and Reps are equally revolutionary.
This is not true. The Dems want incremental improvements to general public life; the Reps want to (and I quote POTUS reps here) "to end the Administrative State". THAT is a revolution.
Please stop equating moderate to fanatical. That is not doing yourself or the general discussion any good.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 22, 2017, 03:07:53 AM
Yeah. Art sucks. Lets just de-fund it. No one needs it, anyway.
btw. I am an artist, by trade. It's how I make my living.
The line for artistic executions is -------> that way.
I want my taxes to build me a golden driveway to park the car on and if a few million people have to starve to death to make it it's their own fault. They just don't work hard enough.
The biggest fallacy is about 'hard work' .. I used to haul scrap metal for a living. It's very hard work, dirty and dangerous. Going by the hard work notion I should have the money to buy Donald Trump for what he's worth and sell him for 1/1000000000000th of what he thinks he's worth and I'd be the richest man in the world.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 24, 2017, 09:41:03 AM
I want my taxes to build me a golden driveway to park the car on and if a few million people have to starve to death to make it it's their own fault. They just don't work hard enough.
The biggest fallacy is about 'hard work' .. I used to haul scrap metal for a living. It's very hard work, dirty and dangerous. Going by the hard work notion I should have the money to buy Donald Trump for what he's worth and sell him for 1/1000000000000th of what he thinks he's worth and I'd be the richest man in the world.
You might be able to work hard for a living, and so might I. And some people don't. But there are too many who simply CAN'T and they deserve to live too. Or, to your mind, do they?
Quote from: Cavebear on March 24, 2017, 09:11:55 AM
I've watched Zhivago several times and the ending is still uncertain. But your slightly main point seems to br that both Dems and Reps are equally revolutionary.
This is not true. The Dems want incremental improvements to general public life; the Reps want to (and I quote POTUS reps here) "to end the Administrative State". THAT is a revolution.
Please stop equating moderate to fanatical. That is not doing yourself or the general discussion any good.
Says you ... LBJ fan? Carter fan? Clinton fan? The corruption is revolutionary in the US ... just not Marxist.
Quote from: Baruch on March 24, 2017, 01:02:54 PM
Says you ... LBJ fan? Carter fan? Clinton fan? The corruption is revolutionary in the US ... just not Marxist.
Corruption is almost, by definition, not revolutionary. Corruption needs an established order to function well.
Think twice, post once.
Sorry ... I would have considered a Democrat like Hubert Humphrey to be moderate ... but he lost in 1968 and now we will never know. All the Democrats since then (and at that time if we include LBJ) were worthless. I am sorry I ever voted for the party of Jefferson Davis. Pointing out that all Republicans, since Nixon, have been worthless (and at that time if we include Nixon) doesn't absolve the Democrat failure. I am also sorry I ever voted for the party of Warren Harding.
We shall see, in the not distant future, how the US is a dead end of history ... because they are too stupid to survive.
Quote from: Baruch on March 25, 2017, 01:26:02 AM
I am sorry I ever voted for the party of Jefferson Davis. Pointing out that all Republicans, since Nixon, have been worthless (and at that time if we include Nixon) doesn't absolve the Democrat failure. I am also sorry I ever voted for the party of Warren Harding.
We shall see, in the not distant future, how the US is a dead end of history ... because they are too stupid to survive.
You have this obsession with past party political views as if they were set in concrete. The Democratic party of today is no more the party on the 1860s south than the Republic party is that of Lincoln. In case you didn't notice, they switched sides in the 1960s. So stop this lame stupidity.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 25, 2017, 01:48:20 AM
You have this obsession with past party political views as if they were set in concrete. The Democratic party of today is no more the party on the 1860s south than the Republic party is that of Lincoln. In case you didn't notice, they switched sides in the 1960s. So stop this lame stupidity.
I am quite aware of the kabuki. They are worse now than in the 1950s. They should both be out-lawed. Would have been happy if both had been outlawed in the 1950s ... but I agree, counterfactual thinking about alternative past ... is lame. Now I am saying outlaw party (not people). Of course this can't happen, the criminality of the parties is driven by the criminality of the people (not just the leaders). So that is why I have almost no hope, other than invasion from Alpha Centauri ... that the US can improve. It can only get worse.
Eventually reality gets around to killing the stupidity ... by killing the stupids ;-(
"We can't fix everything so we shouldn't try to fix anything."
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 25, 2017, 09:04:02 AM
"We can't fix everything so we shouldn't try to fix anything."
If the problem is humanity, not deck chairs on the Titanic ... then the only way to fix things is to get rid of the humanity. You can pass any law, elect any politician ... and you are still human ... and that is the problem, you (and I) lost at birth.
Quote from: Baruch on March 25, 2017, 09:13:04 AM
If the problem is humanity, not deck chairs on the Titanic ... then the only way to fix things is to get rid of the humanity. You can pass any law, elect any politician ... and you are still human ... and that is the problem, you (and I) lost at birth.
Can we apply that to Baruch for starters?
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 25, 2017, 09:45:29 AM
Can we apply that to Baruch for starters?
Yes, both of us are human. Both of us suck. I am willing to admit it ... but not you. This is like Patton admitting that he was competitive with Monty ... Patton was willing to admit he was a SOB, but Monty was not. Eisenhower agreed that both of them were SOB.
Quote from: Baruch on March 25, 2017, 11:57:55 AM
Yes, both of us are human. Both of us suck. I am willing to admit it ... but not you. This is like Patton admitting that he was competitive with Monty ... Patton was willing to admit he was a SOB, but Monty was not. Eisenhower agreed that both of them were SOB.
Oh, I'm willing to admit you suck.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 25, 2017, 01:16:12 PM
Oh, I'm willing to admit you suck.
Yep ... ape men, egomania all the way down. Don't point your banana at me, or are you glad to see me?
Quote from: Baruch on March 25, 2017, 09:00:00 AM
I am quite aware of the kabuki. They are worse now than in the 1950s. They should both be out-lawed. Would have been happy if both had been outlawed in the 1950s ... but I agree, counterfactual thinking about alternative past ... is lame. Now I am saying outlaw party (not people). Of course this can't happen, the criminality of the parties is driven by the criminality of the people (not just the leaders). So that is why I have almost no hope, other than invasion from Alpha Centauri ... that the US can improve. It can only get worse.
Eventually reality gets around to killing the stupidity ... by killing the stupids ;-(
Everytime I try to reach out to you, you respond by babbling about some irrelevant historical character or a few literary quotes. Yes I know them too.
I'm sorry I bothered to try. Put that in your smoke and pipe it...
I don't need you here. I want to speak to other atheists. YOU are just a sometimes amusing (and mostly annoying) troll. You fill the forum with nonsense posts that you think are clever, and say they are "therapy". Well, get your therapy elsewhere. Believe it or not, the forum will survive without you (and probably better).
I wish there was an option here to put all your posts into "ignore".
Quote from: Cavebear on March 26, 2017, 02:33:14 AM
Everytime I try to reach out to you, you respond by babbling about some irrelevant historical character or a few literary quotes. Yes I know them too.
I'm sorry I bothered to try. Put that in your smoke and pipe it...
I don't need you here. I want to speak to other atheists. YOU are just a sometimes amusing (and mostly annoying) troll. You fill the forum with nonsense posts that you think are clever, and say they are "therapy". Well, get your therapy elsewhere. Believe it or not, the forum will survive without you (and probably better).
I wish there was an option here to put all your posts into "ignore".
I think there is, just saying.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 26, 2017, 02:47:59 AM
I think there is, just saying.
If there is, I would appreciate a clue from SOMEONE about where to find it. Other forums routinely have that, but I can't find it here.
I'm not here to debate with theists or silly people, just want to commune with my fellow atheists.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 26, 2017, 02:33:14 AM
I wish there was an option here to put all your posts into "ignore".
The "ignore" button, is located in the top right corner of your frontal lobe. Just don't read his posts, or at least don't respond. If you feed the stray cat, it will keep coming back to your door.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 26, 2017, 05:29:45 AM
If there is, I would appreciate a clue from SOMEONE about where to find it. Other forums routinely have that, but I can't find it here.
I'm not here to debate with theists or silly people, just want to commune with my fellow atheists.
Echo chamber ... please see Obama WH annex, three blocks from the Trump WH.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 26, 2017, 02:33:14 AM
Everytime I try to reach out to you, you respond by babbling about some irrelevant historical character or a few literary quotes. Yes I know them too.
I'm sorry I bothered to try. Put that in your smoke and pipe it...
I don't need you here. I want to speak to other atheists. YOU are just a sometimes amusing (and mostly annoying) troll. You fill the forum with nonsense posts that you think are clever, and say they are "therapy". Well, get your therapy elsewhere. Believe it or not, the forum will survive without you (and probably better).
I wish there was an option here to put all your posts into "ignore".
I am the anti-Cavebear. I never ignore any of your posts. You don't like me, but I like you, I appreciate your reaching out (anytime people post their humanity, not their ideology or theology). Is that how you ran your government department? Like my boss does? Yes, please ask to be a moderator, and be like Etienne ... you can boot whoever you dislike.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on March 26, 2017, 06:58:49 AM
The "ignore" button, is located in the top right corner of your frontal lobe. Just don't read his posts, or at least don't respond. If you feed the stray cat, it will keep coming back to your door.
Meow? Purrrr.
Cavebear - Am I a troll? Pot calling kettle black. I will be Pa Kettle, you can be Ma ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on March 26, 2017, 05:29:45 AM
If there is, I would appreciate a clue from SOMEONE about where to find it. Other forums routinely have that, but I can't find it here.
I'm not here to debate with theists or silly people, just want to commune with my fellow atheists.
Some atheists are very silly. However for better or worse the forum is for freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and believers which I assume means theists (although atheists are believers also they just have a different set of beliefs).
One thing about Baruch sometimes he responds to my posts and I can't tell if he agreed or disagreed.
Say that people did have the freedom to directly allocate their taxes. How happy would Baruch be with the amount of money spent on defense? The less happy that he'd be, the bigger of a deviant (from the norm) that he'd be.
Right now people don't have the freedom to choose where their taxes go. Out of everybody in the world, I'm the least happy about this. In this regard I'm the biggest deviant in the world. I know this for a fact because nobody spends more time arguing in favor of freedom to choose than I do.
The word "deviant" sure has a negative connotation. But if nobody deviated from the norm then we'd still be monkeys swinging from the trees. All progress depends on deviants. All progress depends on difference.
Our society truly doesn't understand the benefit of difference. If it did, it really wouldn't block everybody's differences from the public sector.
Quote from: Drew_2017 on March 26, 2017, 03:36:37 PM
One thing about Baruch sometimes he responds to my posts and I can't tell if he agreed or disagreed.
No one can.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 26, 2017, 04:50:15 PM...Right now people don't have the freedom to choose where their taxes go...
The Republicans will make sure that your tax dollars are yours to allocate, in only one area: education. Soon all the religious schools in the country will be indoctrinating another generation, on the taxpayers dime. Meanwhile the public schools will be severely underfunded, because the money is going to endorse religion.
Quote from: Jason78 on March 26, 2017, 03:18:09 PM
Well if the bridge fits...
You can play, Ma Kettle's lap dog ;-)
Quote from: Drew_2017 on March 26, 2017, 03:36:37 PM
Some atheists are very silly. However for better or worse the forum is for freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and believers which I assume means theists (although atheists are believers also they just have a different set of beliefs).
One thing about Baruch sometimes he responds to my posts and I can't tell if he agreed or disagreed.
Good. You don't need to know. You just need to up your game. So do the regular folks.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 26, 2017, 04:50:15 PM
Say that people did have the freedom to directly allocate their taxes. How happy would Baruch be with the amount of money spent on defense? The less happy that he'd be, the bigger of a deviant (from the norm) that he'd be.
Right now people don't have the freedom to choose where their taxes go. Out of everybody in the world, I'm the least happy about this. In this regard I'm the biggest deviant in the world. I know this for a fact because nobody spends more time arguing in favor of freedom to choose than I do.
The word "deviant" sure has a negative connotation. But if nobody deviated from the norm then we'd still be monkeys swinging from the trees. All progress depends on deviants. All progress depends on difference.
Our society truly doesn't understand the benefit of difference. If it did, it really wouldn't block everybody's differences from the public sector.
Very good Grasshopper ... how good are you yet at dodging arrows? It would be an interesting experiment, having Internet enabled direct democracy. I think nobody can imagine what that would be like ... it might be better than what we got. If we allocated less money providing a free lunch to corporations, including the MIC ... maybe the rest of the world would have less reason to want to kill us, and we wouldn't need as much defense. How one sees that work out, is a direct test of cynicism.
I have no problem with deviants, hence being here among the "bohemians". in religion, the only people who make a new, living religion, are the heretics. Successful challenge to existing scientific paradigm (much harder job) also is the only way progress is made. But people don't want to work for it, they want to be declared winners just for participating, and get gold stars. Yes, be deviant, but not too public about it. In Japan, as elsewhere, they have a saying ... the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 26, 2017, 05:08:42 PM
No one can.
We had a string on reality/non of the Ouija board. Have you tried that yet? ;-) Contextual awareness is your friend, but few have any friends. If these posts were more string-like, like an endless group email, it would be easier to see context, but would have other difficulties. That and we could highlight and footnote the historical developing string as we go.
Quote from: Baruch on March 26, 2017, 09:44:21 PM
You can play, Ma Kettle's lap dog ;-)
Says the post whore, who indeed feels like a troll.
Quote from: Baruch on March 26, 2017, 09:51:10 PM
We had a string on reality/non of the Ouija board. Have you tried that yet? ;-) Contextual awareness is your friend, but few have any friends. If these posts were more string-like, like an endless group email, it would be easier to see context, but would have other difficulties. That and we could highlight and footnote the historical developing string as we go.
Yes. Good show old chap. *nods knowingly*
guys, I'm typing in a font outside baruch's visual spectrum; help me. I didn't get a single word of that!
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on March 27, 2017, 02:09:16 AM
Says the post whore, who indeed feels like a troll.
Feels? Keep your hands to yourself ;-)
If you aren't posting enough, why blame me?
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 27, 2017, 02:44:55 AM
Yes. Good show old chap. *nods knowingly*
guys, I'm typing in a font outside baruch's visual spectrum; help me. I didn't get a single word of that!
I have x-ray vision as a mutant. But I promise to not put on spandex and fly around with my undies on the outside ;-)
And are you familiar with regular email that isn't person to person, but to a group list? Maybe not.
Quote from: Baruch on March 27, 2017, 06:34:07 AM
I have x-ray vision as a mutant. But I promise to not put on spandex and fly around with my undies on the outside ;-)
And are you familiar with regular email that isn't person to person, but to a group list? Maybe not.
The group mail thing is the least of my confusion, oh masked philospher ;-)
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 27, 2017, 07:06:35 AM
The group mail thing is the least of my confusion, oh masked philospher ;-)
Yea, that little mask I wear, like Green Hornet, really hides my identity ;-) Nobody can tell I am a vigilante DA. You live in a funny little country ... so confusion will come natural to you ;-)) If you were from Andorra, where do they go for tax evasion, Lichtenstein?
Quote from: Baruch on March 26, 2017, 09:50:27 PMIt would be an interesting experiment, having Internet enabled direct democracy. I think nobody can imagine what that would be like ... it might be better than what we got.
We'd all be as happy as a kid in a candy store? Why is the kid in a candy store so happy? He is so happy because there's a wide variety of affordable products that closely match his preferences. The considerable
relevance of the supply is the result of countless kids over time being free to choose which products they spend their money on. They've had the freedom to use their own money to communicate how closely a product matches their preferences.
Personally, I detest candy corns... so I don't buy them. But I do really like sesame seed candy. So I buy them.
So it's simply a matter of using our money to communicate how beneficially other people are behaving. Because... nobody is a mind-reader. This is just as true for sex as it is for candy. When you're having sex you gotta communicate what works and what doesn't. Except, if your partner is doing something that works, you don't pay them money in order to positively reinforce their behavior. If your partner is doing something that really works... you don't pay them even more money.
If your partner is doing something that really works then of course it would be pretty awkward to stop and get out your wallet to communicate just how beneficial their behavior is. But what if you didn't have to stop and get out your wallet? What if the payment was automatically made? What if your partner instantly
knew exactly how beneficial you found their behavior?
The best "sex" between consumers and producers is a function of the best communication.
Quote from: Baruch on March 26, 2017, 09:50:27 PMIf we allocated less money providing a free lunch to corporations, including the MIC ... maybe the rest of the world would have less reason to want to kill us, and we wouldn't need as much defense. How one sees that work out, is a direct test of cynicism.
The US obviously doesn't have a monopoly on good writers. Same thing with musicians. So it would be dumb if Americans could only use their money to positively reinforce talent in the US. The same is just as true for public goods as it is for private goods. Taxpayers should be able to shop in
any country's public sector. I'm
pretty sure that the demand for peace will be far greater than the demand for war. Countries that facilitate peace will get far more funding than countries that facilitate war. As a result, peaceful nations will be far better funded and have more than enough resources to put an end to
all conflicts.
Quote from: Baruch on March 26, 2017, 09:50:27 PMI have no problem with deviants, hence being here among the "bohemians". in religion, the only people who make a new, living religion, are the heretics. Successful challenge to existing scientific paradigm (much harder job) also is the only way progress is made. But people don't want to work for it, they want to be declared winners just for participating, and get gold stars. Yes, be deviant, but not too public about it. In Japan, as elsewhere, they have a saying ... the nail that sticks out gets hammered down.
Einstein defined "insanity" as doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. If we want different results then we gotta do different things.
From my perspective the problem is that people are ignorant. Thank goodness that ignorance can be cured. Unfortunately, I haven't had much luck getting people to join my religion. All Jesus said was, "Come with me and I'll make you fishers of men!"... and voila! He had 12 disciples. I say, "Progress depends on difference!" and voila! No disciples!
To be charismatic is one thing. To understand things is another. To
correctly understand things is another.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on March 26, 2017, 06:58:49 AM
The "ignore" button, is located in the top right corner of your frontal lobe. Just don't read his posts, or at least don't respond. If you feed the stray cat, it will keep coming back to your door.
Found it, thanks.
Word Salad generators aren't all that rare.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 28, 2017, 01:05:01 PM
Word Salad generators aren't all that rare.
Salad is healthy for you ;-) Some people are dyslexic ... others don't have that excuse ;-)
Xero ... Socrates agrees with you. He says if people get past ignorance, then they will automatically follow the correct path, which they only avoid out of ignorance (of the correct path). The problem is getting the other Greeks to agree that you shouldn't be executed for blasphemy and corrupting the young ;-( Socrates informed them of the truth, at his trial, but giving correct information to ignoramuses .. wasn't sufficient in his case.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 27, 2017, 08:46:10 PM
We'd all be as happy as a kid in a candy store? Why is the kid in a candy store so happy? He is so happy because there's a wide variety of affordable products that closely match his preferences. The considerable relevance of the supply is the result of countless kids over time being free to choose which products they spend their money on. They've had the freedom to use their own money to communicate how closely a product matches their preferences.
I need a new kidney, so I think all my tax money should be spent on harvesting the organs of felons.
What? It's my money!
Quote from: Jason78 on March 29, 2017, 07:20:22 PM
I need a new kidney, so I think all my tax money should be spent on harvesting the organs of felons.
What? It's my money!
Ends justify means ... let the bloodletting begin ;-( Or you could always contact the people who draw the cartoons about the Mafia harvesting organs, maybe they do, and Guido can give you a deal of a lifetime!
Quote from: Jason78 on March 29, 2017, 07:20:22 PM
I need a new kidney, so I think all my tax money should be spent on harvesting the organs of felons.
What? It's my money!
Just because you make a donation to the Red Cross doesn't necessarily mean that you get a big box of disaster relief. Of course, the more people who donate to the Red Cross... the larger the supply of disaster relief.
A prison isn't generally considered a market. I mean, prisoners can certainly produce shanks and sell them for cigarettes. But it's not like you can visit a prison website and buy a homemade shank directly from a prisoner for $1 dollar.
A school isn't generally considered a market. It's not like you can visit a school website and buy an original painting directly from a student for $1 dollar.
This website isn't generally considered a market. Sure, you can paypal me $1 dollar for this thread that I produced. But it's not necessarily the case that members pay each other for threads.
A flea market is obviously considered a market. You can go there and buy a painting for $1 dollar?
A farmer's market is obviously considered a market. You can go there and buy an artichoke for less than $1 dollar.
The market is the opportunity to use our money to identify and positively reinforce beneficial behavior. So what would happen if schools and prisons and this website were markets?
Personally, I'm definitely not going to pay a prisoner to produce a shank. I'm also not going to pay prisoners to lift weights. And I'm definitely not going to pay some kid to memorize every president. But, there's at least a gazillion things that I would be willing to pay students and prisoners to do.
For sure the logistics would be a bit tricky... especially with prisons. But there's quite a few things that prisoners already have the opportunity to produce (https://www.thrillist.com/gear/products-made-by-prisoners-clothing-furniture-electronics).
The logistics are a moot point if it's not understood what the benefit would be of making it really easy for consumers to use their cash to identify and positively reinforce beneficial behavior.
The US is a police state, so is the UK. Everyone is a prisoner here. But not all of us are in the Max, most of us are in Juvi. The guards though, want to be trillionaires so they keep shaking down the prisoners for shanks and smokes.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 08:01:33 AMThe market is the opportunity to use our money to identify and positively reinforce beneficial behavior. So what would happen if schools and prisons and this website were markets?
QuoteAnd I'm definitely not going to pay some kid to memorize every president.
Well, there you go. Instead of people pitching in and society at large funding education - even people who don't have any kids - little Timmy (the 12-year-old parasite) doesn't get a single red cent from the generous, noble libertarian. And thus we get a libertarian utopia free of want and misery, somehow.
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 30, 2017, 01:43:04 PM
Well, there you go. Instead of people pitching in and society at large funding education - even people who don't have any kids - little Timmy (the 12-year-old parasite) doesn't get a single red cent from the generous, noble libertarian. And thus we get a libertarian utopia free of want and misery, somehow.
Timmy wouldn't get a penny from libertarians... because...?
A. Timmy didn't do anything that's worth a penny
B. Libertarians are free-riders
Which one is it?
If it's "A" then this has absolutely nothing to do with libertarianism. If it's "B" then I'm pretty sure that libertarians do not have a monopoly on the free-rider problem.
My guess is that you have this mindset that people can't learn through the process of helping others. Everybody has lots of problems. There's no reason that students and prisoners can't be given the opportunity to help solve people's problems and learn important skills in the process.
"We are students of words: we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation-rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Initiatives such as introducing technologies can give students more tools with which to create and problem-solve. Seeking out authentic audiences and providing real-world problems to investigate provides powerful motivation for students to produce quality work.â€â€Šâ€" MJ Farris
"They thrive when given the chance to connect what they’re learning with real-life situations, such as community service projects." - April Tibbles
"Working on a real-world problem definitely made us more enthusiastic." - Austin Zhang
"There is no task so small that it cannot be deemed prize worthy. Stanford University computer software pioneer Donald Knuth offers the “Knuth Reward Checkâ€â€"a prize of $2.56â€"to the first person who reports an error in one of his 24 books on computer programming. Since 2001, he has written more than 2,000 checks." - Robert Lee Hotz
Students and prisoners obviously wouldn't need to earn a living. But clearly they need help learning
how to earn a living. Earning a living involves helping people solve real-world problems.
See my illustration in the OP? In case you missed it, art is not my forte. I'm sure that there are 1000s of students and prisoners who have far more artistic skills in their pinky finger than I have in my entire body. There's no reason that I couldn't have offered a $5 dollar prize to whichever student or prisoner created the best illustration.
In all cases it should be ridiculously easy for
everybody to find and nurture talent in schools and prisons. Because the idea that teachers and prison guards are going to be
adequate at finding and nurturing all the talent is the primary reason that so many people are in prison in the first place.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 04:22:48 PM
Timmy wouldn't get a penny from libertarians... because...?
A. Timmy didn't do anything that's worth a penny
B. Libertarians are free-riders
Which one is it?
B. All of the benefits, none of the taxes. Apparently, someone else will have to foot the bill.
You said it yourself. Children wouldn't get a dime from you to learn basic civics. What else can I call that but pure selfishness (and a horribly myopic one at that) presented as if were noble and virtuous?
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 30, 2017, 04:42:02 PM
B. All of the benefits, none of the taxes. Apparently, someone else will have to foot the bill.
You said it yourself. Children wouldn't get a dime from you to learn basic civics. What else can I call that but pure selfishness (and a horribly myopic one at that) presented as if were noble and virtuous?
My friend teaches 4th grade. Her class has a blog... Classtopia (http://classtopia.blogspot.com/). How much are you willing to pay the first of her students who successfully memorizes the entire list of presidents?
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 04:50:46 PM
My friend teaches 4th grade. Her class has a blog... Classtopia (http://classtopia.blogspot.com/). How much are you willing to pay the first of her students who successfully memorizes the entire list of presidents?
Pay the kid directly? And timed? Dafuq?? I dunno what kind of stuff you're on, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
Instead of whatever's going on in your libertarian fantasy world, my solution is just to adequately fund education (yes, through taxes) and give kids a decent education across the board. Pretty radical solution, eh?
And yes, a tiny portion of that will go to giving Timmy a basic civics education. As opposed to you know, not doing that.
You might wonder why I would care about primary schools at all since I don't have any kids. Well, here's why:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKw7ZLsWIAAv10R.jpg)
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 30, 2017, 05:10:56 PM
Pay the kid directly? And timed? Dafuq?? I dunno what kind of stuff you're on, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
Instead of whatever's going on in your libertarian fantasy world, my solution is just to adequately fund education (yes, through taxes) and give kids a decent education across the board. Pretty radical solution, eh?
And yes, a tiny portion of that will go to giving Timmy a basic civics education. As opposed to you know, not doing that.
You might wonder why I would care about primary schools at all since I don't have any kids. Well, here's why:
It seems like you really want to argue about necessity of taxpayers funding education. My advice would be to find a libertarian. You might try the Ron Paul Forums.
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 30, 2017, 01:43:04 PM
Well, there you go. Instead of people pitching in and society at large funding education - even people who don't have any kids - little Timmy (the 12-year-old parasite) doesn't get a single red cent from the generous, noble libertarian. And thus we get a libertarian utopia free of want and misery, somehow.
Libertarian utopia ... those who have much, get it all. Those who have little ... loose it all. Proof? Parable of Talents from the NT. Do you know what a talent is? A weight of metal around 66 ibs or 30 kilos. That is a lot of gold or silver. Has nothing to do with whether you are smart or skillful ... it has to do with banking. And yes ... somehow = hidden hand ... of graft and influence. But of course, Jesus was talking about treasure in Heaven, not on Earth. Prosperity Gospel never gets that.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 04:50:46 PM
My friend teaches 4th grade. Her class has a blog... Classtopia (http://classtopia.blogspot.com/). How much are you willing to pay the first of her students who successfully memorizes the entire list of presidents?
I knew all the states and state capitals before starting first grade. Nobody paid me anything. I must be some awful communist! Ayn Rand much?
Quote from: Baruch on March 30, 2017, 07:13:02 PM
I knew all the states and state capitals before starting first grade. Nobody paid me anything. I must be some awful communist! Ayn Rand much?
When I was in the first grade my grandfather paid me $100 dollars to memorize the 91st Psalm (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+91). I've long since forgotten it and just read it again. It's amazing that God sounds exactly like the government.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 07:35:12 PM
When I was in the first grade my grandfather paid me $100 dollars to memorize the 91st Psalm (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+91). I've long since forgotten it and just read it again. It's amazing that God sounds exactly like the government.
Spoiled from the get-go. I got 50 cents per week allowance. He should have just given you a trillion dollar coin, and exiled you to the galaxy of spoiled children ;-) Also give him his money back ... or just leave it on his tombstone, you clearly didn't fulfill the reason he asked you to memorize it.
It is silly asking children to memorize scripture, in a translation, of ancient poetry, of an alien culture ... without a lifetime of study first. One is never done studying, even a single word, even a single syllable. The point being, that we are to be transformed, not act as tape recorders (see children who memorize the whole Quran in Arabic). See Fahrenheit 451.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMBu6RUMJg0
At the end, the heroes who escape worldly society, become the book they memorize. They aren't tape recorders, they are transcendent beings ... which they are not, in worldly society.
Baruch, what was the point of Cain and Abel making sacrifices?
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 07:44:18 PM
Baruch, what was the point of Cain and Abel making sacrifices?
That would take several years to describe, beginning with the original language, and an imaginative recreation of the culture (not Edenic) where the story had some meaning. It clearly has no meaning to modern people ... who are Gentile, atheist or secular, who think that it is good to do whatever seems right in their own eyes, and then rationalize how sophisticated they are.
Do you understand sacrifice? Do you understand magic? I mean, other than simply denying them? And lets not talk about this G-d fellow, that simply would take an eternity, literally.
Starting at Genesis 4:3
.וַיְ×"Ö´, מִקֵּץ יָמִי×; וַיָּ×'Öµ× ×§Ö·×™Ö´×Ÿ מִפְּרִי ×"Ö¸×Ö²×"ָמָ×", ×žÖ´× Ö°×—Ö¸×"--לַי×"וָ×"
Quote from: Baruch on March 30, 2017, 07:55:39 PM
That would take several years to describe.
Not really.
Primitive minds created primitive ways to appease what they perceived as gods in the sky.
Quote from: Sorginak on March 30, 2017, 07:58:35 PM
Not really.
Primitive minds created primitive ways to appease what they perceived as gods in the sky.
Then with your pan-galactic mind ... even read phonetically the Hebrew what I posted? Yes, compared to the Galactic Empire of the future, we are just bugs.
Baruch and Sorginak I give you both a D-. Here's the correct answer...
Cain sacrificed some fruit, veggies and grains to God. Abel, on the other hand, sacrificed a lamb to God. Abel was willing to make a bigger sacrifice. From this God divined that Abel felt much deeper gratitude for God’s blessings than Cain did.
A little later on in the Bible, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac to God. Abraham was willing to make a huge sacrifice. His willingness to pay (WTP) such a steep price effectively transmitted information about the incredible intensity of his preference for God.
In the new testament we see the culmination of the idea of sacrifice as communication when God sacrifices his only son in order to save the world. His WTP effectively transmitted information about the incredible intensity of preference... aka "Love"... for the world.
Imagine if we replaced the economic definition of "Love" (sacrifice) with the democratic definition of "Love" (voting)... "For God so loved the world that he voted for it..." This would transmit barely any information about the intensity of God's preference for the world. We'd be largely ignorant about God's true love for the world.
For anybody who is interested in a coherent Biblical story... things are a bit tricky. For sure, we really aren’t mind-readers. However, King Solomon believed that God was a mind-reader… “for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men.†Clearly this would make sacrifice an entirely unnecessary way for humans to communicate with God.
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 08:02:27 PM
Baruch and Sorginak I give you both a D-. Here's the correct answer...
Cain sacrificed some fruit, veggies and grains to God. Abel, on the other hand, sacrificed a lamb to God. Abel was willing to make a bigger sacrifice. From this God divined that Abel felt much deeper gratitude for God’s blessings than Cain did.
A little later on in the Bible, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac to God. Abraham was willing to make a huge sacrifice. His willingness to pay (WTP) such a steep price effectively transmitted information about the incredible intensity of his preference for God.
In the new testament we see the culmination of the idea of sacrifice as communication when God sacrifices his only son in order to save the world. His WTP effectively transmitted information about the incredible intensity of preference... aka "Love"... for the world.
Imagine if we replaced the economic definition of "Love" (sacrifice) with the democratic definition of "Love" (voting)... "For God so loved the world that he voted for it..." This would transmit barely any information about the intensity of God's preference for the world. We'd be largely ignorant about God's true love for the world.
For anybody who is interested in a coherent Biblical story... things are a bit tricky. For sure, we really aren’t mind-readers. However, King Solomon believed that God was a mind-reader… “for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men.†Clearly this would make sacrifice an entirely unnecessary way for humans to communicate with God.
Gentile language summary, the info from 2000 years of Gentile homily. I suppose you intuit French culture, thru French literature, while knowing no French? mon Dieu!
And yes, people who actually know what they are talking about, spiritually (not religiously) know that communicating with G-d is unnecessary. The point of prayer is to enunciate out loud, something to your inner self.
And to the moderators ... no, I don't intend on giving Bible lessons in the original languages, not even in the Religion section ;-))
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 08:02:27 PM
Baruch and Sorginak I give you both a D-. Here's the correct answer...
Cain sacrificed some fruit, veggies and grains to God. Abel, on the other hand, sacrificed a lamb to God. Abel was willing to make a bigger sacrifice. From this God divined that Abel felt much deeper gratitude for God’s blessings than Cain did.
A little later on in the Bible, Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac to God. Abraham was willing to make a huge sacrifice. His willingness to pay (WTP) such a steep price effectively transmitted information about the incredible intensity of his preference for God.
In the new testament we see the culmination of the idea of sacrifice as communication when God sacrifices his only son in order to save the world. His WTP effectively transmitted information about the incredible intensity of preference... aka "Love"... for the world.
Imagine if we replaced the economic definition of "Love" (sacrifice) with the democratic definition of "Love" (voting)... "For God so loved the world that he voted for it..." This would transmit barely any information about the intensity of God's preference for the world. We'd be largely ignorant about God's true love for the world.
For anybody who is interested in a coherent Biblical story... things are a bit tricky. For sure, we really aren’t mind-readers. However, King Solomon believed that God was a mind-reader… “for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men.†Clearly this would make sacrifice an entirely unnecessary way for humans to communicate with God.
As I already stated: primitive minds create primitive fiction.
Quote from: Sorginak on March 30, 2017, 08:10:04 PM
As I already stated: primitive minds create primitive fiction.
But this is your mistake ... you don't regard yourself as primitive. We all are. But you are part of the Annunaki, right?
Quote from: Sorginak on March 30, 2017, 08:10:04 PM
As I already stated: primitive minds create primitive fiction.
The fiction was the correlation between sacrifice and blessings. Right now we allow elected representatives to spend our taxes for us. You think there's a correlation between this system and blessings. But do you have any proof of this? Well there's an abundance of schools and roads and defense. Yet, the existence of blessings isn't proof that our system is the cause. Our system has never been scientifically tested. Therefore... yeah... primitive minds create primitive fiction.
Do you want to prove that your mind isn't primitive? Are you interested in actually testing our system? We could easily use this website to do so.
1. We all pay a very reasonable monthly fee
2. We decide for ourselves which threads we spend our fees on
3. After a reasonable time, we elect one member to spend our fees for us
Then we'll all decide for ourselves whether our blessings increased as a result of...
A. making sacrifices directly to our favorite threads
B. allowing an elected representative to direct our sacrifices for us
Quote from: Baruch on March 30, 2017, 08:13:01 PM
But this is your mistake ... you don't regard yourself as primitive. We all are. But you are part of the Annunaki, right?
Nope, Minoan.
Quote from: Sorginak on March 30, 2017, 08:30:07 PM
Nope, Minoan.
I thought I recognized you, Icarus! Don't fly too high ;-)
Quote from: Xerographica on March 30, 2017, 08:28:48 PM
The fiction was the correlation between sacrifice and blessings. Right now we allow elected representatives to spend our taxes for us. You think there's a correlation between this system and blessings. But do you have any proof of this? Well there's an abundance of schools and roads and defense. Yet, the existence of blessings isn't proof that our system is the cause. Our system has never been scientifically tested. Therefore... yeah... primitive minds create primitive fiction.
Do you want to prove that your mind isn't primitive? Are you interested in actually testing our system? We could easily use this website to do so.
1. We all pay a very reasonable monthly fee
2. We decide for ourselves which threads we spend our fees on
3. After a reasonable time, we elect one member to spend our fees for us
Then we'll all decide for ourselves whether our blessings increased as a result of...
A. making sacrifices directly to our favorite threads
B. allowing an elected representative to direct our sacrifices for us
Can't be a connection for you. There are no sacrifices, and no blessings. You don't know what those words even mean ... nor do many theists ;-) Ape men. Homilies from atheists? How about music from the deaf? Oh ... Beethoven. Now that was a miracle.
Quote from: Baruch on March 30, 2017, 09:16:35 PM
Can't be a connection for you. There are no sacrifices, and no blessings. You don't know what those words even mean ... nor do many theists ;-) Ape men. Homilies from atheists? How about music from the deaf? Oh ... Beethoven. Now that was a miracle.
Quote"Old-women's Grandson," ran the words of a Crow Indian's prayer to the Morning Star, "I give you this joint [of my finger], give me something good in exchange...I am poor, give me a good horse. I want to strike one of the enemy and I want to marry a good-natured woman. I want a tent of my own to live." "During the period of my visits to the Crow (1907-1916)," wrote Professor Lowie, to whom we owe the recording of this pitiful prayer, "I saw few old men with left hands intact." - Joseph Campbell, Primitive Mythology
Plains Indian warriors went on a spirit quest, at the beginning of the career as men. You wouldn't qualify. I suppose you would decline the honor of the Sun dance as well. It is my privilege to be the neighbor and friend of a Lakota spirit warrior. Sorry, I don't think you can learn anything from him. I still can. Joseph Campbell had great respect for Native Americans ... so do I.
Quote from: Hydra009 on March 30, 2017, 05:10:56 PM
Pay the kid directly? And timed? Dafuq?? I dunno what kind of stuff you're on, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.
Instead of whatever's going on in your libertarian fantasy world, my solution is just to adequately fund education (yes, through taxes) and give kids a decent education across the board. Pretty radical solution, eh?
And yes, a tiny portion of that will go to giving Timmy a basic civics education. As opposed to you know, not doing that.
You might wonder why I would care about primary schools at all since I don't have any kids. Well, here's why:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKw7ZLsWIAAv10R.jpg)
That is exactly my situation and exactly my concern.
Quote from: Cavebear on March 24, 2017, 09:56:57 AM
You might be able to work hard for a living, and so might I. And some people don't. But there are too many who simply CAN'T and they deserve to live too. Or, to your mind, do they?
I think you took me just a tad too seriously there Cavey.. I'm personally in favor of a guaranteed minimum allotment for every man, woman and child to survive on regardless of whether they work or not. Even the laziest fuckers on the planet deserve a square meal once a day.
Quote from: Baruch on March 30, 2017, 11:46:13 PM
Plains Indian warriors went on a spirit quest, at the beginning of the career as men. You wouldn't qualify. I suppose you would decline the honor of the Sun dance as well. It is my privilege to be the neighbor and friend of a Lakota spirit warrior. Sorry, I don't think you can learn anything from him. I still can. Joseph Campbell had great respect for Native Americans ... so do I.
From John Holbo's book Reason and Persuasion...
*****************************
Socrates: You could have been much more concise, Euthyphro, if you wanted to, by answering the main part of my question. You're not exactly dying to teach me - that much is clear. You were just on the point of doing so, but you turned aside. If you had given the answer, I would already be well versed in holiness, thanks to you. But as it is, the lover of inquiry must chase after his beloved, wherever he may lead him. Once more then: what do you say that the holy is, or holiness? Don't you say it's a kind of science of sacrifice and prayer?
Euthyphro: I do.
Socrates: To sacrifice is to give a gift to the gods; to pray is to ask them for something?
Euthyphro: Definitely, Socrates.
Socrates: Then holiness must be a science of begging from the gods and giving to them, on this account.
Euthyphro: You have grasped my meaning perfectly, Socrates.
Socrates: That is because I want so badly to take in your wisdom that I concentrate my whole intellect upon it, lest a word of yours fall to the ground. But tell me, what is this service to the gods? You say it is to beg from them and give to them?
Euthyphro: I do
Socrates: And to ask correctly would be to ask them to give us the things we need?
Euthyphro: What else?
Socrates: And to give correctly is to give them in return what they need from us? For it would hardly represent skill in giving to offer a gift that is not needed in the least.
Euthyphro: True, Socrates
Socrates: Holiness will then be a sort of art for bartering between gods and men?
Euthyphro: Bartering, yes - if you prefer to call it that.
*****************************
Quote from: Xerographica on April 01, 2017, 03:02:11 AM
From John Holbo's book Reason and Persuasion...
*****************************
Socrates: You could have been much more concise, Euthyphro, if you wanted to, by answering the main part of my question. You're not exactly dying to teach me - that much is clear. You were just on the point of doing so, but you turned aside. If you had given the answer, I would already be well versed in holiness, thanks to you. But as it is, the lover of inquiry must chase after his beloved, wherever he may lead him. Once more then: what do you say that the holy is, or holiness? Don't you say it's a kind of science of sacrifice and prayer?
Euthyphro: I do.
Socrates: To sacrifice is to give a gift to the gods; to pray is to ask them for something?
Euthyphro: Definitely, Socrates.
Socrates: Then holiness must be a science of begging from the gods and giving to them, on this account.
Euthyphro: You have grasped my meaning perfectly, Socrates.
Socrates: That is because I want so badly to take in your wisdom that I concentrate my whole intellect upon it, lest a word of yours fall to the ground. But tell me, what is this service to the gods? You say it is to beg from them and give to them?
Euthyphro: I do
Socrates: And to ask correctly would be to ask them to give us the things we need?
Euthyphro: What else?
Socrates: And to give correctly is to give them in return what they need from us? For it would hardly represent skill in giving to offer a gift that is not needed in the least.
Euthyphro: True, Socrates
Socrates: Holiness will then be a sort of art for bartering between gods and men?
Euthyphro: Bartering, yes - if you prefer to call it that.
*****************************
Excellent quote ... if it is a direct quote by your author, of Plato's little dialog. So shall we go Greek instead of Dutch? Socrates was a heretic (brilliant one like all good heretics) so his accusers had him dead to rights ... and the "corruption of youth" was a natural corollary. Perhaps this is an accurate description of ancient Athens, and a good reason why Classical paganism was insufficiently rewarding for the masses, in a time when life was nasty, brutish and short (as was Socrates himself apparently). The kind of sacrifice in the Jewish Temple, was not unlike this description. Jesus opposed it (and was justifiably killed for it, same as Socrates). Judaism itself moved on from this kind of bargaining. But ideally, in Biblical terms, it was never seen as haggling in the souk (except to the money changers and animal sellers). The idea was that violation of the covenant, required the death penalty. And that as civilized people, we didn't simply jettison the covenant, but found a way to ameliorate the penalty. The animal sacrifice, and grain sacrifice were examples of scape-goating. Christianity still carries this substitutionary atonement, to this day. Judaism moved on. Prayer and other ritual behavior was the yet greater amelioration of the ameliorated penalty (for practical reasons, because there was no valid Temple to sacrifice at). Post HaShoah ... many of us have moved on again. I don't accept the fiction of a covenant (from Abraham nor from Moses nor from Jesus). Too legalistic for me. As a mystic, I simply go for familiarity, moving in with G-d, rather than being an unrelated plaintiff in a docket.
Baruch, you're really missing the point that talk is cheap. For God so loved the world that he voted for it? No! God loved the world so much that he willingly sacrificed his only son to save it.
The other day my friend was super tired/lazy on the couch. She said that she was dying of thirst and wanted me to get her a bottle of water. I said fine and grabbed an empty bottle and filled it up with tap water. Then I put it on the table right in front of her. She didn't want to drink it because it was tap water. So I replied, "guess you're not really dying of thirst".
If you can turn your nose up at tap water, then you don't care very strongly about drinking water. Same thing if you're not willing to get off the couch and walk a few feet to grab a bottle of water.
Humans figured out early on that it's really easy to verbally over-exaggerate the intensity of our preferences... "Oh, I'm super starving! Please let me have some of your food!" Humans then figured out that a person's willingness to sacrifice can be used to verify the intensity of their preference... "Oh, I'm super starving! If you want proof then I'll trade you my tool for your food!"
Public sacrifice is all about honest and accurate and reliable and trustworthy and believable communication of preference intensity. This is it's very real and necessary and essential function. This is exactly why taxpayers should have the freedom to choose where their taxes go. You say that you really strongly care about public welfare? Then prove it by spending your own tax dollars on welfare instead of on public healthcare.
Let's all know what's truly important to each other and use this information to better serve each other.
I don't choose where my taxes go. I don't accept substitutionary atonement, so I am not a Christian either. Do you usually project so much? Project the anti-you onto others and then pick fights?
I know lots of people who willingly sacrifice (I work with the military). Same with the other public servants that citizens despise. The leadership ... not so much. I am going to be sacrificing my time and effort, to return to part-time teaching, for free, on my spare time. Still working full time, for cash. And yes, teaching for the public benefit that might never rebound to me personally.
Baruch, the anti-me doesn't quite appreciate that
sacrifice communicates preference intensity. The anti-me also doesn't appreciate that we need to know people's true preference intensity in order for society's limited resources to be used as beneficially as possible.
Do you think that it would be a great idea for members of this forum to pay $1 dollar a month and use their fees to signal which threads are the most vital/urgent? If not, then you're the anti-me...
QuoteHowever well balanced the general pattern of a nation's life ought to be, there must at particular times be certain disturbances of the balance at the expense of other less vital tasks. If we do not succeed in bringing the German army as rapidly as possible to the rank of premier army in the world...then Germany will be lost! - Adolf Hitler
QuoteThis decision demands a major national commitment of scientific and technical manpower, materiel and facilities, and the possibility of their diversion from other important activities where they are already thinly spread. - John F. Kennedy, Special Message to the Congress on Urgent National Needs
Well given your like statistics ... I can only hope you find a more popular activity. And no, direct compensation isn't always necessary .. keeps the IRS on their toes you know ;-)
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 31, 2017, 09:16:53 PM
I think you took me just a tad too seriously there Cavey.. I'm personally in favor of a guaranteed minimum allotment for every man, woman and child to survive on regardless of whether they work or not. Even the laziest fuckers on the planet deserve a square meal once a day.
I am not so much concerned about the "laziest fuckers on the planet" (and many of them hold down two 30 hour minimum wage jobs, BTW), as I am for their innocent children who deserve a better chance in life.