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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Topic started by: MyelinSheath on March 17, 2017, 02:34:43 AM

Title: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: MyelinSheath on March 17, 2017, 02:34:43 AM
I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Sylar on March 17, 2017, 02:36:50 AM
I agree. We are an irrational species by default, and few tend to work on not being so.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2017, 03:23:56 AM
I don't think it's impossible. Whole countries where THE majority of THE people don't believe in god are fat and few in between. But they do exist, showing it's possible for a whole society to be, by THE norm, irreligious.
Is it probable this Will grow worldwide? No. Especially not with how THE world is today.
Would I see it become THE norm anytime soon? I thin I have a better chance of winning THE lotery 5 times consecutively, while simultaneously getting struck by lighting and discovering
Alien life, all in THE same year I get pronounced most handsome man alive.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 17, 2017, 03:36:56 AM
I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.
I disagree.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s7lR0T2bpPQ/TfZdI3Uwd5I/AAAAAAAAACA/G3n6nrKIzwI/s1600/piecharts500.jpg)

Atheist populations have steadily increased from virtually nothing to a frustratingly difficult to determine portion of the large but nebulous "non-religious" category - the #3 spot in the world behind Christians and Muslims.  It might be hard to picture people giving up religion, but that's evidently what's going on in many parts of the world, particularly in Western countries (http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2012/05/30/is-atheism-increasing-at-the-expense-of-theism/), and the data bears that out.

Here's what's been going on in the USA:

(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2009/04/27atheist_graphic.gif)

(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/PF_15.05.05_RLS2_1_310px.png)

(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/PR_15.05.12_RLS-00.png)

Of course, the USA is only around 5% of the world population, so don't cheer just yet.  According to Pew Research Center (http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/), the Unaffiliated category (which contains atheists, agnostics, non-religious, etc) is going to decline as a percentage of the world population by 2050.  Unaffiliated numbers will still be on the in the West, but not nearly as a fast as religious, particularly Muslim, populations in developing countries.  So any religious decline in the West is going to be more than offset by population booms in heavily religious developing countries.

The Gods may not be winning, but they're putting up a hell of a fight.  But as countries gain achieve better standards of living and access to education, and more countries experience demographic transition (high birth rates and high death rates --> low birth rates and low death rates), irreligion might just win out over religion, albeit at least a couple centuries from now.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 17, 2017, 04:01:14 AM
I don't think it's impossible. Whole countries where THE majority of THE people don't believe in god are fat and few in between.
Eh, there are quite a few (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/), depending on how you ask.  Adding non-religious and atheist together to clear that 50% bar seems like a bit of a cheat, though.  There's a pretty noticeable clustering in Europe and Asia.

(But just between you and me, I dunno if I'd count countries with state atheism.  All it takes is a big political shakeup and bam, back to the voodoo that they do so well.  China in particular (http://www.cfr.org/china/christianity-china/p36503) looks like it's in the midst of a religious revival)
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2017, 04:16:36 AM
Eh, there are quite a few (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/), depending on how you ask.  Adding non-religious and atheist together to clear that 50% bar seems like a bit of a cheat, though.  There's a pretty noticeable clustering in Europe and Asia.

(But just between you and me, I dunno if I'd count countries with state atheism.  All it takes is a big political shakeup and bam, back to the voodoo that they do so well.  China in particular (http://www.cfr.org/china/christianity-china/p36503) looks like it's in the midst of a religious revival)

Yeah, you're right on state atheism. I wouldn't count state atheism neither. It's like religion without a god. It's mandatory, not up to freedom of (dis)belief and in many cases it involves making the state or the leader of the state the placeholder-deity.
Still 19 countries, more than I'd figured, I admit, but still less than 10% of the world's countries. And I don't even know how many people we're talking about relative to the world's population here.
Problem with these countings, of course, is that they often don't accurately represent atheism itself. As you say: depending on the way you ask. And I don't count being without religion as atheist.
Belgium's said to be 75% catholic, according to the CIA's world factbook, but a lot of us have falen into religiouslessness . We are only counted as catholic due to our baptism. My brother, for example is one of many I know who are not religious, but who do believe in the 'Greater Something', a divine creator, even if we can't understand his will. I prefer the hell out of that to dogmatic preachers, but I can't count them as atheist. That being said, for the main part, at least in our bigger cities, if you come out as atheist, despite not being a majority, you don't get judged for it. At least I don't usually get that feeling. The only source of 'conflict' I've ever gotten was from the Islamic cultures and Christians from African descent. But most people just don't care.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 06:38:22 AM
I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.

I also agree.  Progress of humanity is chauvinist propaganda, usually by the West.  Atheist is a minority personality type ... it will always be with us, as will the more common theist varieties.  Nothing wrong with that.  Diversity is a good thing.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 06:40:01 AM
I don't think it's impossible. Whole countries where THE majority of THE people don't believe in god are fat and few in between. But they do exist, showing it's possible for a whole society to be, by THE norm, irreligious.
Is it probable this Will grow worldwide? No. Especially not with how THE world is today.
Would I see it become THE norm anytime soon? I thin I have a better chance of winning THE lotery 5 times consecutively, while simultaneously getting struck by lighting and discovering
Alien life, all in THE same year I get pronounced most handsome man alive.

Yes, the Dinka in Africa, are a very popular and world conquering tribe.  Expecting people to give up religion, is like expecting them to give up politics, language, art etc ... religion is a cultural artifact, same as those.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 06:43:14 AM
Yeah, you're right on state atheism. I wouldn't count state atheism neither. It's like religion without a god. It's mandatory, not up to freedom of (dis)belief and in many cases it involves making the state or the leader of the state the placeholder-deity.
Still 19 countries, more than I'd figured, I admit, but still less than 10% of the world's countries. And I don't even know how many people we're talking about relative to the world's population here.
Problem with these countings, of course, is that they often don't accurately represent atheism itself. As you say: depending on the way you ask. And I don't count being without religion as atheist.
Belgium's said to be 75% catholic, according to the CIA's world factbook, but a lot of us have falen into religiouslessness . We are only counted as catholic due to our baptism. My brother, for example is one of many I know who are not religious, but who do believe in the 'Greater Something', a divine creator, even if we can't understand his will. I prefer the hell out of that to dogmatic preachers, but I can't count them as atheist. That being said, for the main part, at least in our bigger cities, if you come out as atheist, despite not being a majority, you don't get judged for it. At least I don't usually get that feeling. The only source of 'conflict' I've ever gotten was from the Islamic cultures and Christians from African descent. But most people just don't care.

It is well known that religious statistics are fake, everywhere, not just in China.  Faking statistics is a necessary political policy ... such as GDP, CPI etc.  The failure of culture in Europe, is reflected by the failure of religion in Europe.  Don't Care ... applies to a lot of things.  Grand Mal syndrome.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2017, 06:44:34 AM
It is well known that religious statistics are fake, everywhere, not just in China.  Faking statistics is a necessary political policy ... such as GDP, CPI etc.  The failure of culture in Europe, is reflected by the failure of religion in Europe.  Don't Care ... applies to a lot of things.  Grand Mal syndrome.

Failure of culture?
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 06:55:37 AM
Failure of culture?

Most of what a group of people do, is culture.  I am not speaking of music per se etc ... though that is included.  The Europeans in general and the French in particular, like to think very highly of their culture.  Being of mostly European ancestry, I tend to agree.  But that is our shared chauvinism.  There is a general failure in Europe, that happened with modernity, that became particularly acute in the 20th century.  The reason for WW I and WW II and the Cold War .. is because Europe is failing as a civilization.  Now the EU seems to be failing also.  This will of course have a negative impact on everything from family life to rock & roll.  Since Islam is rising, and may be as per Toynbee, a more vigorous civilization, this would explain, aside from geography, that Europe's future is Islamic.  I think the personal and old fashioned word is ... enervated.  Metaphorically, Europe has simply masturbated itself into a stupor, and couldn't care less if a babe is in the room.  Or another metaphor, is so drunk all the time, it can't get to work in the morning.  Over stimulation (see Internet porn) is a problem with ape men.

And I am not claiming Americans/Canadians etc are superior to Europe ... we are new-improved Europeans, after all.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2017, 07:08:49 AM
Most of what a group of people do, is culture.  I am not speaking of music per se etc ... though that is included.  The Europeans in general and the French in particular, like to think very highly of their culture.  Being of mostly European ancestry, I tend to agree.  But that is our shared chauvinism.  There is a general failure in Europe, that happened with modernity, that became particularly acute in the 20th century.  The reason for WW I and WW II and the Cold War .. is because Europe is failing as a civilization.  Now the EU seems to be failing also.  This will of course have a negative impact on everything from family life to rock & roll.  Since Islam is rising, and may be as per Toynbee, a more vigorous civilization, this would explain, aside from geography, that Europe's future is Islamic.  I think the personal and old fashioned word is ... enervated.  Metaphorically, Europe has simply masturbated itself into a stupor, and couldn't care less if a babe is in the room.  Or another metaphor, is so drunk all the time, it can't get to work in the morning.  Over stimulation (see Internet porn) is a problem with ape men.

And I am not claiming Americans/Canadians etc are superior to Europe ... we are new-improved Europeans, after all.

I'd even say all of what people do is culture.

However I think you and I have a different look on what culture entails. To say it can fail is to say it can succeed. I don't think they can. I don't think they try. Cultures just are. And one day, cultures just are no more. Failure and succes seem such loaded words, not applicable here, I think.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 09:44:56 AM
Yes, in the hopefully not too far off future, when all/most humans figure out that it is only they themselves that can correct the problems that they have invented for themselves--their bad oppressive, systems, in particular--and eradicate capitalism, which will destroy them and the planet, and move to a more socialist/communist system.  Better education for all in science and rational thought/philosophy/ethics and cooperation will eventually eradicate all religions from the planet.  The blueprints already exist.

Science and healthy living and equitable resource distribution globally will ease the fear of death and prolong lifespan on average.  People mainly believe in God/religion because they are afraid of death. 

Aspects of the various religious culture--dress, food, and the like--could remain as vestiges for enjoyment only.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 09:50:49 AM
I don't think it's impossible. Whole countries where THE majority of THE people don't believe in god are fat and few in between. But they do exist, showing it's possible for a whole society to be, by THE norm, irreligious.
Is it probable this Will grow worldwide? No. Especially not with how THE world is today.
Would I see it become THE norm anytime soon? I thin I have a better chance of winning THE lotery 5 times consecutively, while simultaneously getting struck by lighting and discovering
Alien life, all in THE same year I get pronounced most handsome man alive.
I think the younger generations are less and less functionally religious or believers.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but that's my take, anyway.  I suppose it could all get rolled back if all those Christo-Fascists--"American Taliban"--get their way, but that will be eventually be overcome by rationality, science and cooperation.  If nothing else, Nature will force the issue as it is already doing.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 10:24:07 AM
The American Taliban does have their own terrorist state, they call it, "Al-Abama"...
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 10:34:46 AM
Eh, there are quite a few (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/), depending on how you ask.  Adding non-religious and atheist together to clear that 50% bar seems like a bit of a cheat, though.  There's a pretty noticeable clustering in Europe and Asia.

(But just between you and me, I dunno if I'd count countries with state atheism.  All it takes is a big political shakeup and bam, back to the voodoo that they do so well.  China in particular (http://www.cfr.org/china/christianity-china/p36503) looks like it's in the midst of a religious revival)
There are not, nor has there ever been, any, "Atheist States".  That is, Atheism legislated and enforced by a State.  That is a lie.   A variety of religions have always been practiced in China, or the DPRK, or the former USSR(Russian Orthodox Christianity in particular), Cuba, Venezuela, etc.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 17, 2017, 10:43:52 AM
The American Taliban does have their own terrorist state, they call it, "Al-Abama"...

Are you sure you and Baruch aren't related?
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 17, 2017, 10:50:13 AM
I think the younger generations are less and less functionally religious or believers.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but that's my take, anyway.  I suppose it could all get rolled back if all those Christo-Fascists--"American Taliban"--get their way, but that will be eventually be overcome by rationality, science and cooperation.  If nothing else, Nature will force the issue as it is already doing.

Yes. That's another thing that needs to be taken into account. Even the religious seem to be more secular in nature now. They don't go to church as much, they reject socially unacceptable teachings that have long been Christian standard (such as homosexuality being a sin), they're more Liberal when it comes to political issues. Basically, the young religious often believe that God is the lovable guy, completely opposite to how the Bible portrays him. They're functionally secular.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 10:57:28 AM
Yes. That's another thing that needs to be taken into account. Even the religious seem to be more secular in nature now. They don't go to church as much, they reject socially unacceptable teachings that have long been Christian standard (such as homosexuality being a sin), they're more Liberal when it comes to political issues. Basically, the young religious often believe that God is the lovable guy, completely opposite to how the Bible portrays him. They're functionally secular.
Agreed.  I think that is probably true among the younger Muslim generations too:  functionally atheist.  Humans are basically materialists, is what it comes down to, since we have to feed our bellies and stay warm everyday.  "God" doesn't help at all with any of that.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 10:58:12 AM
Are you sure you and Baruch aren't related?
No, he thinks Plato invented Marxism.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 17, 2017, 11:55:34 AM
It is possible and even likely as I see it.  But it will take a very long time.  I see us (humans) moving toward that and away from the fantasy of religion.  But as I said--it will take a very long time.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 12:20:49 PM
Here's the current starting point in the good ol' UFSA:

(http://civilsmite.com/images/idiocracy-u1129.png?crc=3875997529)
(http://i.imgur.com/M9gzWrw.jpg)

Sooooooo....
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 17, 2017, 12:52:26 PM
I think the younger generations are less and less functionally religious or believers.  Maybe I am wrong about that, but that's my take, anyway.  I suppose it could all get rolled back if all those Christo-Fascists--"American Taliban"--get their way, but that will be eventually be overcome by rationality, science and cooperation.  If nothing else, Nature will force the issue as it is already doing.

I don't know. I'm not willing to make that statement. When I was growing up, I had the same idea. But it turns out I was just alike to many of my friends.
In my job these days however, I find that lots of people, even the younger ones, claim to be religious. Relatively lots of strict christians and muslims in the impoverished, low-educated and opportunity-deprived layers of society, to my experience. And I don't think religion and poverty (of opportunity) are unrelated.
Which begs the question; how this is growing on a global scale? Say half of Belgium, a relatively rich country, becomes atheist. That's still only about 5.5 milion people. You can't call that a dent in the world population, not with the best of arguments. The Western World is only a relatively small part of the entire world. And it's the richer layer, if we extend my national example. How's the rest of the world fairing? India? Africa? South America? With the encreasing gap between the rich and the poor globally (as well as in our own country), and the poor education on global level, I don't think we'll see atheism as the norm world-wide for quite some time. At best.
Then again, that's my experience. I too may be wrong here.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 01:04:06 PM
No, he thinks Plato invented Marxism.

Plato invented modern totalitarianism ... ever read The Republic?  Of course he put his ideas in Socrates mouth.  Marxism is just a 19th century form of Platonism.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 01:04:55 PM
I don't know. I'm not willing to make that statement. When I was growing up, I had the same idea. But it turns out I was just alike to many of my friends.
In my job these days however, I find that lots of people, even the younger ones, claim to be religious. Relatively lots of strict christians and muslims in the impoverished, low-educated and opportunity-deprived layers of society, to my experience. And I don't think religion and poverty (of opportunity) are unrelated.
Which begs the question; how this is growing on a global scale? Say half of Belgium, a relatively rich country, becomes atheist. That's still only about 5.5 milion people. You can't call that a dent in the world population, not with the best of arguments. The Western World is only a relatively small part of the entire world. And it's the richer layer, if we extend my national example. How's the rest of the world fairing? India? Africa? South America? With the encreasing gap between the rich and the poor globally (as well as in our own country), and the poor education on global level, I don't think we'll see atheism as the norm world-wide for quite some time. At best.
Then again, that's my experience. I too may be wrong here.
All good points.  Well, the 3rd World and the 1st World are materially interrelated, obviously, as I have discussed elsewhere.

Quote
Religion is the Opium(pain killer) of the (poor)People.   Marx
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 01:06:55 PM
I'd even say all of what people do is culture.

However I think you and I have a different look on what culture entails. To say it can fail is to say it can succeed. I don't think they can. I don't think they try. Cultures just are. And one day, cultures just are no more. Failure and succes seem such loaded words, not applicable here, I think.

Europe ... ban word "success".  Now no need to worry about being a failure.  Tell it to all the Europeans who killed other Europeans, 1914-1945.  Suicidal maniacs do not success make.  And now Germany wants to go to war with Russia again ... simply brilliant!
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 01:09:28 PM
It is possible and even likely as I see it.  But it will take a very long time.  I see us (humans) moving toward that and away from the fantasy of religion.  But as I said--it will take a very long time.

Once we evolve into cyborgs, Seri will be your Operating System ... the ultimate leather bitch!
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 01:12:10 PM
I don't know. I'm not willing to make that statement. When I was growing up, I had the same idea. But it turns out I was just alike to many of my friends.
In my job these days however, I find that lots of people, even the younger ones, claim to be religious. Relatively lots of strict christians and muslims in the impoverished, low-educated and opportunity-deprived layers of society, to my experience. And I don't think religion and poverty (of opportunity) are unrelated.
Which begs the question; how this is growing on a global scale? Say half of Belgium, a relatively rich country, becomes atheist. That's still only about 5.5 milion people. You can't call that a dent in the world population, not with the best of arguments. The Western World is only a relatively small part of the entire world. And it's the richer layer, if we extend my national example. How's the rest of the world fairing? India? Africa? South America? With the encreasing gap between the rich and the poor globally (as well as in our own country), and the poor education on global level, I don't think we'll see atheism as the norm world-wide for quite some time. At best.
Then again, that's my experience. I too may be wrong here.

History is more cyclical than that.  It isn't some linear progression to a Capitalist or Communist utopia.  There is no utopia (the clue in in the name).  I have seen quite a few cultural swings in the US in 60 years, and my history (propaganda) tells me it has been going on a long time.  Based on that, since Americans aren't a different species, I think it applies everywhere.  Some aspects of Europe, are strictly post WWII or post Cold War ... in time that will fade, and you will be back to killing each other again.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 01:18:52 PM
Plato invented modern totalitarianism, ever read The Republic.  Of course he put his ideas in Socrates mouth.  Marxism is just a 19th century form of Platonism.
Absolutely false, again.   I already thoroughly debunked this with evidence...and reason.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Shiranu on March 17, 2017, 02:34:52 PM
No, I don't think so... at least not for a very, very long time. But I do think what will become the norm is that people will practice extremely secular-religion, as we see happening now, where they take the bits that agree with their culture's secular morality and ignore the bits that don't, which at the end of the day is what is really important. Who cares what people believe? What matters is what people do, and the trend is that people are beginning to do that which is right more than that which is wrong.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Sorginak on March 17, 2017, 02:48:42 PM
The only normal that matters in life is the setting on a dryer. 
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 07:11:46 PM
The only normal that matters in life is the setting on a dryer.

I have hope for you ... you have your head screwed on.  Forget theology and ideology ... waste of time.  Get that laundry done.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: etienne on March 17, 2017, 09:31:02 PM
First of all, evolution is neither linear nor cyclical:  it goes in myriad "directions" based on natural selection/adaption in the material world.  Nature creates, adapts impartially, and, through entropy, which is the overriding force, dis-integrates(de-creates).  You could say that a simlilar set or collection of molecules and elements in our particular natural world "recycles" to form new "creations", but those are just the building blocks and said "creations" are not cyclical or linear:  they merely adapt to the particular contextual environment at any given time in order to survive and reproduce, neither of which is guaranteed long term.

Recorded human history, for one, is never all inclusive and actual human history also proceeds in myriad non linear, non cyclical "directions" also based on adaptation to the resources of the material world.  This adaptation to the material world and mode of life sustaining production based on material resources combines with arbitrarily decided resultant human relationships and therefore forms the basis of human "historical movement" over any particular phase of time.  To the extent that this historical, material movement, or "economic system" is able to reproduce and sustain itself gives the illusion of linear OR cyclical motion, but is, in fact, arbitrary and in no way necessarily permanent.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Cavebear on March 18, 2017, 03:32:15 AM
I disagree.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s7lR0T2bpPQ/TfZdI3Uwd5I/AAAAAAAAACA/G3n6nrKIzwI/s1600/piecharts500.jpg)

Atheist populations have steadily increased from virtually nothing to a frustratingly difficult to determine portion of the large but nebulous "non-religious" category - the #3 spot in the world behind Christians and Muslims.  It might be hard to picture people giving up religion, but that's evidently what's going on in many parts of the world, particularly in Western countries (http://www.scienceandreligiontoday.com/2012/05/30/is-atheism-increasing-at-the-expense-of-theism/), and the data bears that out.

Here's what's been going on in the USA:

(http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2009/04/27atheist_graphic.gif)

(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/PF_15.05.05_RLS2_1_310px.png)

(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/PR_15.05.12_RLS-00.png)

Of course, the USA is only around 5% of the world population, so don't cheer just yet.  According to Pew Research Center (http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/), the Unaffiliated category (which contains atheists, agnostics, non-religious, etc) is going to decline as a percentage of the world population by 2050.  Unaffiliated numbers will still be on the in the West, but not nearly as a fast as religious, particularly Muslim, populations in developing countries.  So any religious decline in the West is going to be more than offset by population booms in heavily religious developing countries.

The Gods may not be winning, but they're putting up a hell of a fight.  But as countries gain achieve better standards of living and access to education, and more countries experience demographic transition (high birth rates and high death rates --> low birth rates and low death rates), irreligion might just win out over religion, albeit at least a couple centuries from now.

Outstanding great info Hydra!  The numbers keep increasing toward atheist.  I'm not surprised.  One habit I think we humans have is tending toward factual information and a rational outlook.  The scientific approach causes that.  It just answers more questions than revelatory theisms.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Drew_2017 on March 19, 2017, 12:20:09 AM
MyelinSheath

I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.

Excellent topic.

I think it depends on the state of evidence for or against theism. There have been 100's of beliefs folks have abandoned due to very strong evidence against such beliefs. No one believes in the sun god or the god of earthquakes or the rain god but at one time people did and were committed to such beliefs. People have respect for science and scientific facts. I don't know of anyone who is declaring the non-existence of God is a scientific fact. There are some naturalistic theories of how the universe came into existence but they are highly theoretical. The preponderance of evidence is the universe came into existence 13.5 billion years ago from a singularity. A phenomenon in which the laws of physics we are familiar with don't exist. I know most atheists vehemently deny there is any single fact which supports theism but that doesn't mean impartial people won't view such facts as evidence in favor of theism.

In regards to charts and surveys I think a grain of salt is needed. If I was asked if I'm religious I'd say no...but I do believe we owe our existence to a Creator known as God. Some who respond I'm an atheist may actually be a 'weak' atheist who doesn't deny God exists just doesn't subscribe to it. In my opinion they could just as well be weak theists.

There are things that could happen that would change my mind. If find life of a totally different nature from earth. If we discover this really is one of many universes or if we can actually duplicate how life began. I don't mean by using intelligence and design, that would be the theistic method.

 
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Cavebear on March 19, 2017, 12:48:42 AM
MyelinSheath

I don't think it ever will. I just don't think you'll ever get people to give up religion. I think the atheists who think we're on track to become an atheist world one day are delusional. I think religion will not only be with us forever, but will be of the majority forever.

In regards to charts and surveys I think a grain of salt is needed. If I was asked if I'm religious I'd say no...but I do believe we owe our existence to a Creator known as God. Some who respond I'm an atheist may actually be a 'weak' atheist who doesn't deny God exists just doesn't subscribe to it. In my opinion they could just as well be weak theists.

I'm sorry, but if you think there was a creator deity of the universe, then you aren't really an "atheist".  You are a theist.  You might not have an organized group of fellow-believers and a text, but it is a theism nonetheless.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Drew_2017 on March 19, 2017, 01:33:11 AM
I'm sorry, but if you think there was a creator deity of the universe, then you aren't really an "atheist".  You are a theist.  You might not have an organized group of fellow-believers and a text, but it is a theism nonetheless.

I'm not an atheist. I am a theist. I'm not religious. I don't attend a church of theism though I might if there was one...
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 19, 2017, 08:24:41 AM
I'm not an atheist. I am a theist. I'm not religious. I don't attend a church of theism though I might if there was one...

Have you considered Unitarian Universalism?  Some congregations are open to Abrahamics, others are more Eastern in orientation ;-)
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: MyelinSheath on March 20, 2017, 01:40:10 AM
Have you considered Unitarian Universalism?  Some congregations are open to Abrahamics, others are more Eastern in orientation ;-)
Or, you know, just atheism in the "I don't know/default position" sort of way. Much more reasonable than either of those two things. Let's not pick our answer yet. Let's wait until some evidence arises.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: mrsmith1 on March 20, 2017, 03:13:58 AM
Like vegetarianism, of which I am also, I don't expect it to be the 'norm' in my lifetime.


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Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Munch on March 20, 2017, 01:40:20 PM
There is always some form of religion that forms, and I predict another one will form again in the future, and like now only a handful of people who don't follow any kind of dogma will follow it.

The problem with the human condition is people are so often easily lead, anything can be a religion in one form or another, even political ideology.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 20, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
There is always some form of religion that forms, and I predict another one will form again in the future, and like now only a handful of people who don't follow any kind of dogma will follow it.

The problem with the human condition is people are so often easily lead, anything can be a religion in one form or another, even political ideology.

If we define religion as ... whatever is irrationally most important to one ... then there is always religion, even non-theist kinds.  Rationality however, is itself a shibboleth.  The only way to be free of religion in the most general sense, is to be free of enthusiasm, free of emotion.  Some people here might qualify as androids ;-)
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 20, 2017, 07:32:57 PM
If we define religion as ... whatever is irrationally most important to one ... then there is always religion, even non-theist kinds.  Rationality however, is itself a shibboleth.  The only way to be free of religion in the most general sense, is to be free of enthusiasm, free of emotion.  Some people here might qualify as androids ;-)
I see organized religion as a destroyer of enthusiasm, except for a very narrow band that is allowed by the hierarchy for their particular god.  The same for emotion--emotion directed toward a particular god, but nowhere else.  Being atheist does not make one lack enthusiasm; personally, I find it the opposite.  When I visit a church or study a particular religion or talk with a very religious person If find my energy become less and less.  My emotions less and less healthy. 

I don't see how rationality can be bad.  Rational people realize that emotions are a part of humanity and make room for it.  Rational people simply want to study or view life thru a reasonable (using thinking and critical thought), not wishful thinking or belief.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Blackleaf on March 20, 2017, 08:54:42 PM
I see organized religion as a destroyer of enthusiasm, except for a very narrow band that is allowed by the hierarchy for their particular god.  The same for emotion--emotion directed toward a particular god, but nowhere else.  Being atheist does not make one lack enthusiasm; personally, I find it the opposite.  When I visit a church or study a particular religion or talk with a very religious person If find my energy become less and less.  My emotions less and less healthy. 

I don't see how rationality can be bad.  Rational people realize that emotions are a part of humanity and make room for it.  Rational people simply want to study or view life thru a reasonable (using thinking and critical thought), not wishful thinking or belief.

Very true. At least I know Christianity is that way. Few Christians are content with applying their personal "values" to their own lives, but they have to force it onto everyone else too. So not only do you have to limit yourself to what things your imaginary god approves of, but you also have to deal with others telling you what their gods approve of. I remember one chastising me for liking the "Taken" movie because the main character killed people. Oh, yeah, because killing people was never directed by the God of the Bible. He especially never commanded the killing of people who did something he thought was evil, like say...kidnapping your daughter and making her into a sex slave. Nah. Clearly what the main character should have done with his talents was pray for God to save his daughter, and ask nicely for the kidnappers to release their new slave.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Drew_2017 on March 20, 2017, 11:01:39 PM
I'm a WWI WWII Civil war buff which means I watch a lot of TV documentaries and read a few books on the subject. The most irrational...and yet arguably the bravest acts were men relentlessly marching into the line of fire. I don't know if under that circumstance I'd mentally collapse or just find myself unable to make my limbs continue to march forward. The securing of Iwo Jima was as savage fighting as could be imagined yet the persevered for nearly a month to secure that five mile island.   
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 20, 2017, 11:27:22 PM
I'm a WWI WWII Civil war buff which means I watch a lot of TV documentaries and read a few books on the subject. The most irrational...and yet arguably the bravest acts were men relentlessly marching into the line of fire. I don't know if under that circumstance I'd mentally collapse or just find myself unable to make my limbs continue to march forward. The securing of Iwo Jima was as savage fighting as could be imagined yet the persevered for nearly a month to secure that five mile island.   

Gawdzilla Sama is an expert in US history (we mostly agree).  I am more of a general historian.  Why don't you talk about that, in the History section?

For many of us, myself included, have family members who were in service.  The son ... of the second man my grandmother married, died on Iwo Jima (this was about a year before she married him).  I have visited his grave (the son).  Did you see the two related movies done by Clint Eastwood?  I am related to her first husband, and consider her third husband the "grandfather" I knew ... the third husband served in WW II in N Africa with Patton and later in the ME in Iraq and Iran.  My father-in-law served in the War Dept during WW II.  My mother and that same grandmother, were Rosies during WW II.  My older brother and older male cousin both served in Vietnam, and a cousin my mother's age served in Korea.  I have been associated with the military as a contractor, for half my life, originally with the Cold War.  Gawdzilla Sama is a 20 year Navy man.

But speaking of marching into fire ... ever hear of the Battle of the Somme?  Europeans are much more aware of WW I than Americans.  One of that same grandmother's older brothers, was in France in 1918 .. the war ended as he was being marched from Paris to the Ardennes.  There was a mini-movie about the Ardennes, not as classic as All Quiet On The Western Front, but The Lost Battalion.  For the last couple years my WW II interests have centered on espionage ... which now has good unclassified documentation never before available.  Though the recent movie on Alan Turing was only half historical, The Imitation Game.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Cavebear on March 21, 2017, 03:56:45 AM
War is never rational. 
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 21, 2017, 06:48:26 AM
War may be rational, but it is never wise.  The Germans in WW I - WW II were rational.  Wisdom and reason don't share notes.  If your axioms are unwise ... no amount of reason will save you.  Wisdom is the sometimes result of long experience, converted into an intuition hat the young are up to no good ;-)
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Drew_2017 on March 21, 2017, 10:58:19 AM
Gawdzilla Sama is an expert in US history (we mostly agree).  I am more of a general historian.  Why don't you talk about that, in the History section?

For many of us, myself included, have family members who were in service.  The son ... of the second man my grandmother married, died on Iwo Jima (this was about a year before she married him).  I have visited his grave (the son).  Did you see the two related movies done by Clint Eastwood?  I am related to her first husband, and consider her third husband the "grandfather" I knew ... the third husband served in WW II in N Africa with Patton and later in the ME in Iraq and Iran.  My father-in-law served in the War Dept during WW II.  My mother and that same grandmother, were Rosies during WW II.  My older brother and older male cousin both served in Vietnam, and a cousin my mother's age served in Korea.  I have been associated with the military as a contractor, for half my life, originally with the Cold War.  Gawdzilla Sama is a 20 year Navy man.

But speaking of marching into fire ... ever hear of the Battle of the Somme?  Europeans are much more aware of WW I than Americans.  One of that same grandmother's older brothers, was in France in 1918 .. the war ended as he was being marched from Paris to the Ardennes.  There was a mini-movie about the Ardennes, not as classic as All Quiet On The Western Front, but The Lost Battalion.  For the last couple years my WW II interests have centered on espionage ... which now has good unclassified documentation never before available.  Though the recent movie on Alan Turing was only half historical, The Imitation Game.

Yes I saw the movies and the movie American Sniper. I was in the USN myself but never went into actual war time duty. Did you see the recent documentary where they have now truly identified all the men in the famous flag raising photo on Iwo Jima?
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 21, 2017, 06:35:21 PM
The double flag raising ... was covered in one of Clint Eastwood's movies about Iwo Jima.  Of course some of it might be disputed, because many of those involved, died is subsequent fighting.  But the second flag raising, as filtered thru war propaganda, was a big boost to American morale.
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 21, 2017, 06:59:42 PM
I think that the vast majority of those who claim to believe in "God" do not, in fact, believe in God. At least, they sure don't act like they do. Like all those pedophile priests - how could they believe God was watching them do those terrible things, and yet do them anyway?
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Baruch on March 21, 2017, 07:10:11 PM
I think that the vast majority of those who claim to believe in "God" do not, in fact, believe in God. At least, they sure don't act like they do. Like all those pedophile priests - how could they believe God was watching them do those terrible things, and yet do them anyway?

but ...
Know Yourself
To Thine Own Self Be True
Title: Re: Do you think atheism will ever become the norm?
Post by: Cavebear on March 24, 2017, 05:09:51 AM
I think that the vast majority of those who claim to believe in "God" do not, in fact, believe in God. At least, they sure don't act like they do. Like all those pedophile priests - how could they believe God was watching them do those terrible things, and yet do them anyway?

I suspect most people DO believe in a deity.  At least they seem to fear one greatly for possible eternal punishment.  Enough to bow and pray and worry.

Personally, I think that theism with eternal punishment is the worst concept ever created by humankind and has warped our societies with more fear and hatred than all other causes.