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2 stupid 2 live.

Thanks for playing.  Some of us need to consider the alternatives ... and Jewish guys with big beards are an alternative ;-)

I do know something about Communism, and can discuss it neutrally.  But most posts by most people here are SJW ... they really don't have the stomach for getting out the guillotine.  They want to virtue signal, not get their hands dirty.  I am particularly fond of the Chinese.  Do you think they have gone "capitalist"?

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 06:12:30 AM
Thanks for playing.  Some of us need to consider the alternatives ... and Jewish guys with big beards are an alternative ;-)

I do know something about Communism, and can discuss it neutrally.  But most posts by most people here are SJW ... they really don't have the stomach for getting out the guillotine.  They want to virtue signal, not get their hands dirty.  I am particularly fond of the Chinese.  Do you think they have gone "capitalist"?

I'm currently reading Xiaobo Liu. What I'm getting from his writing, if I interpret it correctly (which is a hard feat I'll admit), he seems to believe so; in the most perverse of ways the communist party retains in power but lead to a very dark form of society. I'm not sure if he'd closer qualify it as a communist society pretending to be capitalist one. Or a capitalist society pretending to be a communist one. (Though I'd lean to the latter.)

Then again, this is one of the most difficult books I've read so far. (I'm not used to non-fiction.) And I'm not familiar with Chinese history as well as I could be. I could be misinterpreting much of what he's saying.
Interesting read though.

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 06:12:30 AM
Thanks for playing.  Some of us need to consider the alternatives ... and Jewish guys with big beards are an alternative ;-)

I do know something about Communism, and can discuss it neutrally.  But most posts by most people here are SJW ... they really don't have the stomach for getting out the guillotine.  They want to virtue signal, not get their hands dirty.  I am particularly fond of the Chinese.  Do you think they have gone "capitalist"?

Ain't it the truth.

The SJW, identity politics liberals/progressives yuppies/petit bourgeois are capitalists, they just want "nicer" capitalism with more "free stuff" for them with little to no regard for the working class that does all the heavy lifting of society. So, yes, they don't want tho get their prissy hands dirty either @ work or politically:  they don't DO, and are pretty much incapable of doing, revolution. They don't want revolution. Capitalism is serving them just fine, but all their "democratic-socialist" demands put more intensified pressure of the working class, especially in the Third World--i.e., the people that have to make the "free stuff".  I've had lib/progs attack me MORE viciously than your standard right wingers when I tell them I am a So-Comm.  They are CAPITALISTS, make no mistake about that.

Anyway, the Maoists took So-Comm the furthest, as far as I can tell, and some of their communes were WAY ahead of their time and actually practiced moneyless barter, etc, with little to no influence from the State.  The Maoists were way ahead in terms of women's rights and freedom.  Women were completely empowered, pretty much.  Today's China still controls their major industries via the State, as far as I know, so they are still heavily socialist in that regard.  But they have had a heavy overlay of capitalism, no doubt about it.  Too bad for them, workers still have to rebel all over the place to get higher wages and rights that weren't so much an issue under Mao, because the workers were in charge then, FTMP.  I don't know if they still have any communes, I don't think they do.

One thing that bothers me about most atheists, is that most are still capitalists and don't seem to have thought about that too much while voicing all their alleged "freedom".

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 07:07:12 AM
One thing that bothers me about mosts atheists, is that most are still capitalists and don't seem to have thought about that too much while voicing all their alleged "freedom".

You believe a change in religious/spiritual beliefs should lead to a different economical point of view?

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 10, 2017, 06:58:52 AM
I'm currently reading Xiaobo Liu. What I'm getting from his writing, if I interpret it correctly (which is a hard feat I'll admit), he seems to believe so; in the most perverse of ways the communist party retains in power but lead to a very dark form of society. I'm not sure if he'd closer qualify it as a communist society pretending to be capitalist one. Or a capitalist society pretending to be a communist one. (Though I'd lean to the latter.)

Then again, this is one of the most difficult books I've read so far. (I'm not used to non-fiction.) And I'm not familiar with Chinese history as well as I could be. I could be misinterpreting much of what he's saying.
Interesting read though.

I'm not familiar with that author or book, but the remarks sound fairly oversimplified.  If you read the writings of Mao in "real time" back then, there was a helluva lot going on that he had to deal with as they were actually transforming a backward feudalistic society into an industrial so-comm one.  I will comment more on that a bit later.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
  I'm not familiar with that author or book, but the remarks sound fairly oversimplified.  If you read the writhing of Mao is "real time" back then, there was a helluva lot going on that he had to deal with as they were actually transforming a backward feudalistic society into a so-comm one.  I will comment more on that a bit later.

I'm reading it in Dutch. It's called "Ik heb geen vijanden, ik ken geen haat.", translated that'd be "I have no enemies, I know no hate." Though it exists in english as "No enemies, No hatred." It's a collection of his writings, finally translated from Chinese.
He's a human-rights activist and pacifist awarded with the Nobel prize for peace in 2010. Only he couldn't accept it as he was detained by the Chinese government in 2008 and sentenced to 11 years in jail in 2009 for making the charta 08. A manifesto calling for political democratic reformations.

The title of the book is, if I'm right, from his final statement in his trial.

And yes, you're probably right in that I'm putting it bluntly. That's why I must emphasize it's my layman's interpretation. Though I suggest the book wholeheartedly.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 10, 2017, 07:10:02 AM
You believe a change in religious/spiritual beliefs should lead to a different economical point of view?

I think that it should, yes,through logical extension.  My contention is that it frequently doesn't:  that is, in my view, anyone--say Dawkins-- who has given enough thought to conclude there is no God and religion is bad and harmful might also think about the state of humanity as a whole, in political economic social terms, especially when they go around proclamating "freedom" and "free thought", etc.  There is no freedom in capitalism. 

I get pretty annoyed with these people that tour around as speakers making big bucks on the atheist circuit, proclaiming "truth' etc, when they have given ZERO thought or consideration of the untruths of capitalism and it's vicious assault on most people(the working class).  So, an atheist capitalist is pretty much as dangerous as a religious capitalist, sans the religious violence, of course.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 10, 2017, 07:24:47 AM
I'm reading it in Dutch. It's called "Ik heb geen vijanden, ik ken geen haat.", translated that'd be "I have no enemies, I know no hate." Though it exists in english as "No enemies, No hatred." It's a collection of his writings, finally translated from Chinese.
He's a human-rights activist and pacifist awarded with the Nobel prize for peace in 2010. Only he couldn't accept it as he was detained by the Chinese government in 2008 and sentenced to 11 years in jail in 2009 for making the charta 08. A manifesto calling for political democratic reformations.

The title of the book is, if I'm right, from his final statement in his trial.

And yes, you're probably right in that I'm putting it bluntly. That's why I must emphasize it's my layman's interpretation. Though I suggest the book wholeheartedly.

First of all, there's this thing called "anti-commie" Western propaganda and it is pervasive.  A Western publisher and Dutch translation throw up red flags for me immediately.  And the author sounds like a capitalist apologist and therefore they gave him the Nobel Prize.  They don't give Communists the Nobel Prize.  Well, Alfred Nobel was a capitalist armaments inventor/manufacturer, so I don't give any credence to his "prize".

Really, it's difficult to get good info re Maoist China.  You have to go to archival sources which is difficult OR read a good historian's account of the period, and those are few and far between.  I don't believe much of anything coming out of the West re China, DPRK, Cuba, USSR, etc.  It's mostly propaganda.  There's this young guy up in Canada, Jason Unruhe, who is ideologically Maoist and has done some great research work on the subject.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 07:37:27 AM
First of all, there's this thing called "anti-commie" Western propaganda and it is pervasive.  A Western publisher and Dutch translation throw up red flags for me immediately.  And the author sounds like a capitalist apologist and therefore they gave him the Nobel Prize.  They don't give Communists the Nobel Prize.  Well, Alfred Nobel was a capitalist armaments inventor/manufacturer, so I don't give any credence to his "prize".

Really, it's difficult to get good info re Maoist China.  You have to go to archival sources which is difficult OR read a good historian's account of the period, and those are few and far between.  I don't believe much of anything coming out of the West re China, DPRK, Cuba, USSR, etc.  It's mostly propaganda.  There's this young guy up in Canada, Jason Unruhe, who is ideologically Maoist and has done some great research work on the subject.

You'll find propaganda anywhere though. Best to look at multiple sources. Even the once you don't like. (Now I have no moral high-ground here, don't get me wrong. As I said, this is like the first non-fiction book that's not for school that I ever read.) Give it a read sometime, before you judge it or it's author. I'm not saying it will change your life or your point of view. But it can't hurt, now can it?
(Important sidenote is that he's not mainly writing about China under Mao. But China today. Though a comprehension of the historical background is always necessary in understanding something like this.)

And what's wrong with Dutch, by the way? (I sure as shit ain't gonna learn Chinese.) :p

In any case though, eleven years in the big house for writing a manifesto calling for social security, freedom of assembly, protection of the environment and other things seems a bit much.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 10, 2017, 08:11:43 AM
You'll find propaganda anywhere though. Best to look at multiple sources. Even the once you don't like. (Now I have no moral high-ground here, don't get me wrong. As I said, this is like the first non-fiction book that's not for school that I ever read.) Give it a read sometime, before you judge it or it's author. I'm not saying it will change your life or your point of view. But it can't hurt, now can it?
(Important sidenote is that he's not mainly writing about China under Mao. But China today. Though a comprehension of the historical background is always necessary in understanding something like this.)

And what's wrong with Dutch, by the way? (I sure as shit ain't gonna learn Chinese.) :p

In any case though, eleven years in the big house for writing a manifesto calling for social security, freedom of assembly, protection of the environment and other things seems a bit much.

There is propaganda--the distortion of fact, or lies--and there is fact, I am interested in the latter.  Thats why I go to prime sources, Marx, Lenin, Mao, Guevara, etc. 

I don't claim to know much about China post-Mao.  The State still controls most of the advanced industry and resources, I presume, and then you have private capitalism that has come in and most of the working class is back to being very low wage slaves.

Doing a quick Wiki search re Liu, he comes from a petit bourgeois intellectual family and he is the same.  While he was studying and teaching in the US, did he take up the issues of human rights there?  No.  Prison system with the most prisoners on the planet?  No.  Critique of the totalitarian nature of corporate capitalism?  No.  Is he agitating for socialism in China?  No.  So, from this, I gather he is a petit bourgeois capitalist of dem-soc leanings.  If the Chinese State is still mostly so-comm, thats why they put him in the clank.  One wonders who his potential "handlers" are as well.  I am anti-capitalist, rev socialist--I probably wont read him.

If you would like to grace us with a presentation on Xiaobo Liu's critique of contemporary China here, feel free to do so.  ;)

Really, "The Communist Manifesto", IMO, is the most profound and inspiring book on the planet, so all these "human rights" type liberal capitalist writers pale by comparison.

"Democratic Socialism" is NOT Socialism/Communism

"Revolution" w/o Revolution

Jason Unruhe(Canada)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0pB8-M1wD8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMEt7ISPU6A

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
There is propaganda--the distortion of fact, or lies--and there is fact, I am interested in the latter.  Thats why I go to prime sources, Marx, Lenin, Mao, Guevara, etc. 

I don't claim to know much about China post-Mao.  The State still controls most of the advanced industry and resources, I presume, and then you have private capitalism that has come in and most of the working class is back to being very low wage slaves.

Doing a quick Wiki search re Liu, he comes from a petit bourgeois intellectual family and he is the same.  While he was studying and teaching in the US, did he take up the issues of human rights there?  No.  Prison system with the most prisoners on the planet?  No.  Critique of the totalitarian nature of corporate capitalism?  No.  Is he agitating for socialism in China?  No.  So, from this, I gather he is a petit bourgeois capitalist of dem-soc leanings.  If the Chinese State is still mostly so-comm, thats why they put him in the clank.  One wonders who his potential "handlers" are as well.  I am anti-capitalist, rev socialist--I probably wont read him.

If you would like to grace us with a presentation on Xiaobo Liu's critique of contemporary China here, feel free to do so.  ;)

Really, "The Communist Manifesto", IMO, is the most profound and inspiring book on the planet, so all these "human rights" type liberal capitalist writers pale by comparison.

Heh, if I seem qualified to do a presentation on his critique, either you've not been reading my attempts at making clear I'm not an expert on this matter, or I come across far more eloquent than I'd figured.

Gotta say though. Claiming off the bat that critiques of your point of view are inherently propaganda and not worth your time or dismissing them on the basis of the heritage or different political vision of the author does not make for good discours. And not reading criticisms because you are convinced your own sources are excempt of propaganda or are at least not colored by their own visions, aka not looking at the world through a different pair of glasses but must absolutely be the 'factual' way of looking at things, is far more close to dogmatic thinking than I'm willing to get. Sorry if that sounds rude, but it's what I'm getting from all this.
And if for nothing else, while we can always respect the classic grand works, like the communist manifesto, which I can appreciate for what it is, we can't only get our current visions from texts over a 150 years old. The world changes. And even the great ideologies must adapt. I'm a socialist myself, though in Western European useage of the word. And I can say our socialist party in Flanders sucks, imho. They tried to hold onto a system that worked a hundred years ago, but isn't adapted to today's world. And by doing that, they turned out to be amongst the least 'socialist' in their core, on certain principles. Which brought a lot of problems.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 10, 2017, 11:41:10 AM
Heh, if I seem qualified to do a presentation on his critique, either you've not been reading my attempts at making clear I'm not an expert on this matter, or I come across far more eloquent than I'd figured.

Gotta say though. Claiming off the bat that critiques of your point of view are inherently propaganda and not worth your time or dismissing them on the basis of the heritage or different political vision of the author does not make for good discours. And not reading criticisms because you are convinced your own sources are excempt of propaganda or are at least not colored by their own visions, aka not looking at the world through a different pair of glasses but must absolutely be the 'factual' way of looking at things, is far more close to dogmatic thinking than I'm willing to get. Sorry if that sounds rude, but it's what I'm getting from all this.
And if for nothing else, while we can always respect the classic grand works, like the communist manifesto, which I can appreciate for what it is, we can't only get our current visions from texts over a 150 years old. The world changes. And even the great ideologies must adapt. I'm a socialist myself, though in Western European useage of the word. And I can say our socialist party in Flanders sucks, imho. They tried to hold onto a system that worked a hundred years ago, but isn't adapted to today's world. And by doing that, they turned out to be amongst the least 'socialist' in their core, on certain principles. Which brought a lot of problems.

Ok, let me back up and say that I don't know if Liu's work is "propaganda" in the distortion sense, but we can agree on "propaganda" in the relaying of information sense.  If Liu is a revolutionary so-comm as say, Mao, then I may be interested in reading him.  But I think he is as I described, a liberal capitalist, or "dem-soc" capitalist, of which position I am well familiar and dont agree with and therefore dont see a reason to take time to read him when I have plenty of other things to read that are more pertinent to my interests.  Thats why I suggested you give some synopsis of his critique of today's China, so I/others can have an more elaborate idea about Liu's position.

Flanders is in Belgium, correct?  If I am not mistaken, they do "socialist democracy" or "democratic socialism" like other Western Euro countries which is essentially capitalism at it's core:  the bourgeoisie owns the major means of production, the workers do not.  Correct me if I am wrong there.  I will repeat, I am not interested in dem-soc or soc-dem, I am interested in revolutionary, proletarian socialism, which is doable now or anytime:  it is the overthrow of the bourgeois class by the working class, the latter of whom then control the means of production.  I dont think that us what Liu or Belgium are about.  And I'm not quite sure where you stand, my guess is you are a dem-socialist, which is capitalist "plus extras", thru redistributive taxation.

Watch the critique of Bernie Sanders vids above.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 07:26:00 AM
I think that it should, yes,through logical extension.  My contention is that it frequently doesn't:  that is, in my view, anyone--say Dawkins-- who has given enough thought to conclude there is no God and religion is bad and harmful might also think about the state of humanity as a whole, in political economic social terms, especially when they go around proclamating "freedom" and "free thought", etc.  There is no freedom in capitalism. 

I get pretty annoyed with these people that tour around as speakers making big bucks on the atheist circuit, proclaiming "truth' etc, when they have given ZERO thought or consideration of the untruths of capitalism and it's vicious assault on most people(the working class).  So, an atheist capitalist is pretty much as dangerous as a religious capitalist, sans the religious violence, of course.

A skeptic of religion, isn't necessarily a skeptic of anything else, particularly if their cultural echo chamber is involved ;-)

"And what's wrong with Dutch, by the way? (I sure as shit ain't gonna learn Chinese.) :p"

你不能从中文菜单订购？
Nǐ bùnéng cóng zhōngwén càidān dìnggòu?

What do you think of your fellow socialists/communists who buy into the religion of social justice and identity politics? It's not just 'liberal' or 'progressive' capitalists who buy into this. Take a look at the socialism or communism subreddits, for example.

What do you think should happen to people who don't want socialism/communism during a communist revolution? Or what about after the revolution is complete?

Further:  "Democratic Socialism" is NOT Socialism

Jason Unruhe--1st Worldism v 3rd Worldism, Reformism v Revolution

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IDJoDCsa2U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbYFoLplOV8&t=100s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATf_iNN1mnk

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 02:28:38 PM
A skeptic of religion, isn't necessarily a skeptic of anything else, particularly if their cultural echo chamber is involved ;-)

That's mostly true, especially in 1st World countries.  As Upton Sinclair said:

Quote“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary(mode of living) depends on his not understanding it.”

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 02:36:10 PM
"And what's wrong with Dutch, by the way? (I sure as shit ain't gonna learn Chinese.) :p"

你不能从中文菜单订购？
Nǐ bùnéng cóng zhōngwén càidān dìnggòu?

I don't read Chinese, I just look at the nice "pictures".  When I think "Dutch", I think Germanic capitalists, Deutsche Bank(Nazi) and such.  It's a bad habit of mine to do so.  Drumpf owes Deutsche Bank a 'yooge' amount of $, BTW.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 10, 2017, 02:42:13 PM
What do you think of your fellow socialists/communists who buy into the religion of social justice and identity politics? It's not just 'liberal' or 'progressive' capitalists who buy into this. Take a look at the socialism or communism subreddits, for example.

What do you think should happen to people who don't want socialism/communism during a communist revolution? Or what about after the revolution is complete?

Identity politics and SJW I view as subsets of socialistic thought:  that is, they are about creating more equality.  If the socialists are real socialists and doing this, I don't have a problem with it.  The big irony is when liberal/prog capitalists focus on that stuff and don't attack capitalism itself--because they benefit from capitalism(see Unruhe vids re Sanders).

During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options.  All of these things happen in any socialist revolution.  After the overthrow of the former power structure, the same options apply--it's an ongoing class struggle, no rev has ever been "complete".  So-Comm countries have always been under attack in one form or another by the capitalists/imperialists.

The countries where so-called "So-Comm" socioeconomic model has been applied, per your examples if I can infer properly, are not impressive. Given the choice between living in any Social Democratic Scandinavian country and Socialist Communist Cuba, I'd choose the former without a second thought.

"During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options."

Basically you are calling for the creation of a society in which everyone thinks the same (and if not they are killed, jailed, or exiled) where everyone's common denominator is that they're poor while the tyrant who rules the country and the goons protecting him usurp the wealth of the land, distributing just enough to the peasants so they do not dispose of him.

Pure communism tends to have a couple of major flaws: Social loafing and the tragedy of the commons.

The more socialistic you get, the more of a problem this becomes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_loafing

This is a good example of the lack of respect for public property. More socialist ways of thinking discourage private property.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tragedy-of-the-commons.asp

Personally, I consider communists and libertarians two sides of the same coin. Both sound great in theory, but in practice don't work well. The libertarians assume humans will usually act in a rational, self interested way. In truth, humans tend to be quite irrational, greedy, and exploitative of one another. Communists have the opposite problem: They underestimate the evolutionary and social drive of personal ambition, which tends to lead to stagnation, along with economic and social decline. The truth is, these are two extremes and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Quote from: Sylar on March 10, 2017, 07:03:30 PM
The countries where so-called "So-Comm" socioeconomic model has been applied, per your examples if I can infer properly, are not impressive. Given the choice between living in any Social Democratic Scandinavian country and Socialist Communist Cuba, I'd choose the former without a second thought.

"During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options."

Basically you are calling for the creation of a society in which everyone thinks the same (and if not they are killed, jailed, or exiled) where everyone's common denominator is that they're poor while the tyrant who rules the country and the goons protecting him usurp the wealth of the land, distributing just enough to the peasants so they do not dispose of him.

We see this more recently in Venezuela.  Opportunists come from both sides of the political spectrum.  I distrust idealists of the Right or the Left, if they are true believers, they have their heads up their own ass, like the famous photoshop picture.  Inevitably these idealists are puritans, looking to purge society of impurities.  This is why I prefer criminogenic societies, like Capitalism.  The trick is ... making crime pay for more people, not less.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 04:35:05 PM
I don't read Chinese, I just look at the nice "pictures".  When I think "Dutch", I think Germanic capitalists, Deutsche Bank(Nazi) and such.  It's a bad habit of mine to do so.  Drumpf owes Deutsche Bank a 'yooge' amount of $, BTW.

That was for Mr Obvious ... but I suggest y'all learn more Chinese culture, because if you are young enough, you will live to wear Mao jackets and get around on bicycles ;-)  The cannibals have been lest loose in the West and the (Warren) buffet won't last much longer.

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 07:44:56 PM
We see this more recently in Venezuela.  Opportunists come from both sides of the political spectrum.  I distrust idealists of the Right or the Left, if they are true believers, they have their heads up their own ass, like the famous photoshop picture.  Inevitably these idealists are puritans, looking to purge society of impurities.  This is why I prefer criminogenic societies, like Capitalism.  The trick is ... making crime pay for more people, not less.

I agree and distrust idealists also -- the best socioeconomic model is a mixture of both capitalism and socialism. How far the scale is tipped in favor of one side or the other has to depend on the political and economic situation of the nation in question. Economically-stable developed countries should not have the same socioeconomic model as underdeveloped or developing countries.

You can't build a capitalist haven in a So-Comm society as described by OP, of which contemporary China is certainly not an example. But you can build a socialist haven, a collective commune based on cooperation, inside a capitalist state, even in the United States. The only problem is that you will need to make money to pay property tax, but then again you can register your 'communal' organization as a church and not pay any property or income tax :P.

Quote from: Sylar on March 10, 2017, 07:03:30 PM
The countries where so-called "So-Comm" socioeconomic model has been applied, per your examples if I can infer properly, are not impressive. Given the choice between living in any Social Democratic Scandinavian country and Socialist Communist Cuba, I'd choose the former without a second thought.

"During a so-comm rev, those who are in opposition to it have 3 choices:  1) they can change their minds and join the socialists; 2) they can flee to another country of their preference, like the former bourgeoisie light skinned Cubans did to Miami; 3) they can fight the socialists and if they have an inferior force they will get killed or captured and given the 1st 2 options."

Basically you are calling for the creation of a society in which everyone thinks the same (and if not they are killed, jailed, or exiled) where everyone's common denominator is that they're poor while the tyrant who rules the country and the goons protecting him usurp the wealth of the land, distributing just enough to the peasants so they do not dispose of him.

In order:

1)

QuoteThe United States embargo against Cuba (in Cuba called el bloqueo, "the blockade") is a commercial, economic, and financial embargo imposed by the United States on Cuba. ... On February 7, 1962 the embargo was extended to include almost all imports.

AS to your preference for Scandanavian countries, I file that reply under "1st Worldist attitude" and kindly refer you to the Unruhe vids on that subject above.

2)  In matters of socioeconomics, if a group gets together to overthrow the socialist order, yes, they will be met with the options.  Just as in the USA everyone is required to obey the rules of capitalism and not threaten it's existence.  AS to other things, anyone can think anything in a so-comm society.

3)Everyone prospers under socialism ands no one is "owned" like in capitalism, if it is done correctly, but as I said, socialism is always under attack by the capitalists--US embargos are a bitch!  I refer you to the 1st 4 vids of this thread.  What you are describing is capitalism, where the means of production/land are owned by the bourgeois class--no poverty, right?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/2d/e8/aa2de8f8532946d851e190a164546016.jpg)

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 07:47:27 PM
That was for Mr Obvious ... but I suggest y'all learn more Chinese culture, because if you are young enough, you will live to wear Mao jackets and get around on bicycles ;-)  The cannibals have been lest loose in the West and the (Warren) buffet won't last much longer.

My sis in law in from Shanghai.  I studied acupuncture for a time, and Chinese herbs.   I know 2 Chinese words:  "Tsing Tao".  Warren Buffet is from my home town and I hate him with a passion.

https://youtu.be/SUGjgyNRHic

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 07:44:56 PM
We see this more recently in Venezuela.  Opportunists come from both sides of the political spectrum.  I distrust idealists of the Right or the Left, if they are true believers, they have their heads up their own ass, like the famous photoshop picture.  Inevitably these idealists are puritans, looking to purge society of impurities.  This is why I prefer criminogenic societies, like Capitalism.  The trick is ... making crime pay for more people, not less.

Bolded:  logical fallacy, not possible.  Please study "class warfare" under capitalism.

Quote from: Sylar on March 10, 2017, 08:06:24 PM
I agree and distrust idealists also -- the best socioeconomic model is a mixture of both capitalism and socialism. How far the scale is tipped in favor of one side or the other has to depend on the political and economic situation of the nation in question. Economically-stable developed countries should not have the same socioeconomic model as underdeveloped or developing countries.

You can't build a capitalist haven in a So-Comm society as described by OP, of which contemporary China is certainly not an example. But you can build a socialist haven, a collective commune based on cooperation, inside a capitalist state, even in the United States. The only problem is that you will need to make money to pay property tax, but then again you can register your 'communal' organization as a church and not pay any property or income tax :P.

Bolded not possible, capitalism and socialism are anti-thetic(1st 4 vids).  Please refer to "class warfare" and the "dem-soc/1st Worldism" vids above.  2nd bolded, I never claimed to do that, socialism and capitalism are anti-thetic.  You can have state control of certain industries and private capitalist control of others and worker coops of others, in which case the entire society could not be called "socialistic.  Churches should pay taxes, I don't want to fund them.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 08:14:47 PM
In order:

There are 195 other countries in the world that Cuba could trade with. Embargo excuse is old and tired.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 08:14:47 PM1)   AS to your preference for Scandanavian countries, I file that reply under "1st Worldist attitude" and kindly refer you to the Unruhe vids on that subject above.

I have no time to watch videos -- kindly share summary in writing.

I'll admit, I am biased: I live in the first world, so my attitude will reflect the situation in which I live. That is true for everyone else. As much as I try to walk in the shoes of others, it seems to me that people migrate in the direction of the first world, not the other way.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 08:14:47 PM2)  In matters of socioeconomics, if a group gets together to overthrow the socialist order, yes, they will be met with the options.  Just as in the USA everyone is required to obey the rules of capitalism and not threaten it's existence.  AS to other things, anyone can think anything in a so-comm society.

It is a false equivalence. There is [certain degree of liberty] in the US and the political means to change from capitalism to socialism theoretically exist. It is a process, however; a political, non-violent process. Can it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not. In So-Comm utopia, that has never been the case; you criticize the regime and find yourself in a hole or, worse, dead. You do not even have to organize; merely voice opposition.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 08:14:47 PM3)Everyone prospers under socialism ands no one is "owned" like in capitalism, if it is done correctly, but as I said, socialism is always under attack by the capitalists--US embargos are a bitch!  I refer you to the 1st 4 vids of this thread.  What you are describing is capitalism, where the means of production/land are owned by the bourgeois class--no poverty, right?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/2d/e8/aa2de8f8532946d851e190a164546016.jpg)

Could you cite example of socialist society where everyone is prosperous? That seems like a bold claim closer to fiction than reality, no offense.

US embargos are not responsible for deplorable situation of countries like Cuba -- we are not the only country in the world. This is an excuse.

Venezuela, North Korea -- no embargos yet no cigar to your argument either.

Quote from: Sylar on March 10, 2017, 08:47:06 PM
There are 195 other countries in the world that Cuba could trade with. Embargo excuse is old and tired.

I have no time to watch videos -- kindly share summary in writing.

I'll admit, I am biased: I live in the first world, so my attitude will reflect the situation in which I live. That is true for everyone else. As much as I try to walk in the shoes of others, it seems to me that people migrate in the direction of the first world, not the other way.

It is a false equivalence. There is [certain degree of liberty] in the US and the political means to change from capitalism to socialism theoretically exist. It is a process, however; a political, non-violent process. Can it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not. In So-Comm utopia, that has never been the case; you criticize the regime and find yourself in a hole or, worse, dead. You do not even have to organize; merely voice opposition.

Could you cite example of socialist society where everyone is prosperous? That seems like a bold claim closer to fiction than reality, no offense.

US embargos are not responsible for deplorable situation of countries like Cuba -- we are not the only country in the world. This is an excuse.

Venezuela, North Korea -- no embargos yet no cigar to your argument either.

The 1st World owes it's material existence to the resources of the 3rd World, primarily, including the slave labor.  It is false to say that the US, thru political process, could change from capitalistic to socialistic--they are antithetic.  The US political bourgeois politics support the capitalists, that is it's function.  The US is an oligarchy, a plutocracy.

The USSR went from a backward, Czarist ruled feudalistic society to an industrialized socialistic country that became the #2 super power in roughly 20-30 years.  Maoist China did the same thing.  There was essentially no unemployment, homelessness or hunger in either country after the inititial transitions.  If you favor capitalism because you benefit from the exploitation of the working classes, especially in the 3rd World, it is your prerogative to think that way--since you materially benefit from it and apparently dont give a damn about the working class, which is consistent with capitalists. 

Embargos are real, economic warfare, and people die(just ask Iraq), and the US has blocked nearly all other countries from trading with Cuba, it is fact, it is an undebatable point.  And Cuba's main export in SUGAR.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 07:07:12 AMOne thing that bothers me about most atheists, is that most are still capitalists and don't seem to have thought about that too much while voicing all their alleged "freedom".

Atheists, like everyone else, are raised with the political and social norms of the time and place.  One shouldn't be surprised to learn that Western atheists by and large favor capitalism over communism.

But even so, it's no secret that Western atheists, particularly liberals, are often critical of the excesses of capitalism.

For example, huge wealth disparities.  I'm not talking about the CEO making 10 times more than the janitor - I'm talking about the top 62 people making as much as the 3,600,000,000 poorest (http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2016/oct/07/oxfam-america/oxfam-worlds-62-richest-own-much-poorest-36-billio/) - that figure might be off a little, but anywhere in that ballpark is horrible.

Atheists do in fact think and talk about this stuff a great deal, though they might not agree on the remedy you propose.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 04:52:12 PMAfter the overthrow of the former power structure, the same options apply--it's an ongoing class struggle, no rev has ever been "complete".  So-Comm countries have always been under attack in one form or another by the capitalists/imperialists.

Communist glory perpetually thwarted by those dasdardly capitalists.  At first blush, this seems suspiciously like blame-shifting.  Instead of "I failed the test" it is "the teacher gave me a F".  Which one is actually the case?

QuoteA revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.

"Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan" (March 1927), Mao Tse Tung, Selected Works, Vol. I, p. 28.

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 10, 2017, 07:37:56 PM
Pure communism tends to have a couple of major flaws: Social loafing and the tragedy of the commons.

The more socialistic you get, the more of a problem this becomes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_loafing

This is a good example of the lack of respect for public property. More socialist ways of thinking discourage private property.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tragedy-of-the-commons.asp

Personally, I consider communists and libertarians two sides of the same coin. Both sound great in theory, but in practice don't work well. The libertarians assume humans will usually act in a rational, self interested way. In truth, humans tend to be quite irrational, greedy, and exploitative of one another. Communists have the opposite problem: They underestimate the evolutionary and social drive of personal ambition, which tends to lead to stagnation, along with economic and social decline. The truth is, these are two extremes and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Communism and American Libertarianism are polar opposites, the latter being extreme, unregulated capitalism.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 10, 2017, 09:21:32 PM
Atheists, like everyone else, are raised with the political and social norms of the time and place.  One shouldn't be surprised to learn that Western atheists by and large favor capitalism over communism.

But even so, it's no secret that Western atheists, particularly liberals, are often critical of the excesses of capitalism.

For example, huge wealth disparities.  I'm not talking about the CEO making 10 times more than the janitor - I'm talking about the top 62 people making as much as the 3,600,000,000 poorest (http://www.politifact.com/global-news/statements/2016/oct/07/oxfam-america/oxfam-worlds-62-richest-own-much-poorest-36-billio/) - that figure might be off a little, but anywhere in that ballpark is horrible.

Atheists do in fact think and talk about this stuff a great deal, though they might not agree on the remedy you propose.

A CEO makes more like 1000X than a janitor.

Massive concentration of wealth at the top is the natural outcome/functioning of capitalism, that's what it is designed to do.  Capitalism/imperialism is also designed to eventually exhaust all resources and in the process--along with the inherent wars--will destroy the planet and human species.  Marx said it in the mid 19th century.  And here we are. 

Liberals/Progs are pro capitalist, they just want more of the capitalistic spoils for themselves with no regard for the working/poor/slaver classes who are the producers.  So-comm's appeal is to the working class, obviously.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 10, 2017, 09:31:47 PM
Communist glory perpetually thwarted by those dasdardly capitalists.  At first blush, this seems suspiciously like blame-shifting.  Instead of "I failed the test" it is "the teacher gave me a F".  Which one is actually the case?

So-comm societies make mistakes, no doubt.  It's a heavy heavy lift to transform to a socialistic society.  AND the capitalists attack in every way and at every turn.  That is factual.   Just look at the constant US anti-commie propaganda for decades.

Reality also is, as long as you have an owning class with all the wealth and a wage slave working class, the latter will always seek to overthrow the former, doesnt matter what the former thinks about it.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 10:35:54 PMA CEO makes more like 1000X than a janitor.

I'm not sure my little joke landed, but I wasn't claiming the 10x figure is reality, I was pointing out that a *mere* 10x difference would be a minor disparity compared to the current situation.

That said, Doug McMillon (CEO of Walmart) makes 9,323/hour while the starting wage at Walmart is $9/hour (http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Corporate-Greed/Executive-PayWatch-2015-CEO-Pay-Continues-to-Skyrocket), so 1000x is plausible.  It might be more like 200x (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_compensation_in_the_United_States).  Whatever the actual figure is, it makes 10x look positively utopian in comparison.

QuoteMassive concentration of wealth at the top is the natural outcome/functioning of capitalism, that's what it is designed to do.

Good thing then that pure capitalism unrestrained by regulation isn't what's actually going on.  Also, the problem is much worse in some capitalist countries than others.  But yeah, it's definitely worrisome.

QuoteCapitalism/imperialism is also designed to eventually exhaust all resources and in the process--along with the inherent wars--will destroy the planet and human species.

I really want to disagree with that assessment, yet after pouring over the latest climate change figures, I'm not in much of a position to argue.

QuoteLiberals/Progs are pro capitalist, they just want more of the capitalistic spoils for themselves with no regard for the working/poor/slaver classes who are the producers.

I could've sworn their concern is focused on the working poor.  We must be reading very different articles.

I want to be honest, but I'm trying to be more productive in my posting, so I don't want to be honest. This thread got that internal struggle going.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 10:27:57 PMCommunism and American Libertarianism are polar opposites, the latter being extreme, unregulated capitalism.

I would pay good money (distributed according to need, of course) for you to debate our resident libertarian.  That would be epic.  I would eat my body weight in popcorn!

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 12:43:21 AM
I'm not sure my little joke landed, but I wasn't claiming the 10x figure is reality, I was pointing out that a *mere* 10x difference would be a minor disparity compared to the current situation.

That said, Doug McMillon (CEO of Walmart) makes 9,323/hour while the starting wage at Walmart is $9/hour (http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Corporate-Greed/Executive-PayWatch-2015-CEO-Pay-Continues-to-Skyrocket), so 1000x is plausible.  It might be more like 200x (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_compensation_in_the_United_States).  Whatever the actual figure is, it makes 10x look positively utopian in comparison.
Good thing then that pure capitalism unrestrained by regulation isn't what's actually going on.  Also, the problem is much worse in some capitalist countries than others.  But yeah, it's definitely worrisome.
I really want to disagree with that assessment, yet after pouring over the latest climate change figures, I'm not in much of a position to argue.
I could've sworn their concern is focused on the working poor.  We must be reading very different articles.

Capitalism assumes unlimited resources for the sole purpose of making consumer goods for profit and concentrating that profit to a few.  Most the goods are therefore junk, with planned obsolescence, and end up in the landfills.  And there are "externalities", like pollution, "death from work", public picks up the tab, etc. 

So, Nature--->consumer good---->landfill + externalities--thats consumer capitalism.  It must extend to imperialism, with the wars, to gain more resources elsewhere.  Obviously, Nature has a limit, and will impose that limit at some point.  In some ways it's already doing that.

Liberals actually hate the working class, I know this first hand.   Liberals are capitalists, thru and thru.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 12:52:05 AM
I would pay good money (distributed according to need, of course) for you to debate our resident libertarian.  That would be epic.  I would eat my body weight in popcorn!

Ok, my fee is $10k, line 'er up!

I don't know why this is so difficult for people(well I do, brainwashing).  It's all really quite simple, and so-comm is actually a scientific analysis of socio-economic phenomena, material relationships between humans.  So the science should have appeal to atheists, who tend to like science.

US or Austrian(Mises) Libertarianism is unfettered, or highly deregulated capitalism.  Wall St. is already there.  Communism is unfettered, well, socialism, so they are polar opposites.  Libertarianism is essentially fascism.

Quote from: Shiranu on March 11, 2017, 12:50:10 AM
I want to be honest, but I'm trying to be more productive in my posting, so I don't want to be honest. This thread got that internal struggle going.

Your free expression here is encouraged. ;)  Let 'er rip!  If, however, you're a Nazi, we have problems--bigly!

Honest answer is that it feels like a lot of words to say a lot of nothing. There is nothing tangible, nothing I can use to really enact change, because it's trying to rationalise and intellectualize human behaviour when our behaviour is, at it's core, irrational and emotional.

Since it cant be used to make any real change, it just seems like a way to rationalise dividing people up into "us"s and "them"s when really our actions are ultimately almost universally based around, "Does this benefit me and my kin" rather than, "If I take specific step x and input step y, then result b will lead to a change in cause l which hampers his step t and k making my step w more effective at enacting step k...".

And I don't know, I don't mean that to put your position down, I think it's great people look at issues more in depth, but I just have a hard time seeing how much good it is. It seems like wasted effort; no amount of rational thought is going to make people say, "Well, shit... yeah, socialism/capitalism or liberalism/conservatism does make more sense!". Rather the useful act is to convince people emotionally to change, and that just seems like a better direction to focus one's efforts.

...you're not a tankie are you?

Quote from: Shiranu on March 11, 2017, 01:22:57 AM
Honest answer is that it feels like a lot of words to say a lot of nothing. There is nothing tangible, nothing I can use to really enact change, because it's trying to rationalise and intellectualize human behaviour when our behaviour is, at it's core, irrational and emotional.

Since it cant be used to make any real change, it just seems like a way to rationalise dividing people up into "us"s and "them"s when really our actions are ultimately almost universally based around, "Does this benefit me and my kin" rather than, "If I take specific step x and input step y, then result b will lead to a change in cause l which hampers his step t and k making my step w more effective at enacting step k...".

And I don't know, I don't mean that to put your position down, I think it's great people look at issues more in depth, but I just have a hard time seeing how much good it is. It seems like wasted effort; no amount of rational thought is going to make people say, "Well, shit... yeah, socialism/capitalism or liberalism/conservatism does make more sense!". Rather the useful act is to convince people emotionally to change, and that just seems like a better direction to focus one's efforts.

Well, I disagree with everything you said, pretty much to the letter.  Why?  Because none of what you said is true.  I could break down each point, but I've already done that, and it's in the vids.  We live in a material world, it is real and so-comm and capitalism are real.  One just has you decide which side of the fence one is on.

Watch the vids, maybe you will learn something.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 01:08:17 AMLibertarianism is essentially fascism.

He'd argue that it's all about maximal freedom, apparently implying that other positions are somehow less free.  I sell my goods and services, you sell your goods and services, and everyone gets what they want without the state ordering people around.

Also, we can get rid of violent crime by just mandating gun ownership for all non-criminals.

Don't compare those two statements too much or your head might explode.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 01:52:54 AMWatch the vids, maybe you will learn something.

Please, please don't say stuff like that.  We have a had a couple people in the past who essentially just push propaganda vids at us and expect us to listen and believe.  Please, use videos sparingly and summarize most of the time.  It feels more like a real conversation that way.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 02:04:25 AM
Please, please don't say stuff like that.  We have a had a couple people in the past who essentially just push propaganda vids at us and expect us to listen and believe.  Please, use videos sparingly and summarize most of the time.  It feels more like a real conversation that way.

I put them there so people can actually learn something, because, no, they dont know about so-comm and they dont even understand capitalism--they cant define either.  Hence, they just usually have their uninformed opinion.  It's rather like debating religionists.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 01:52:54 AM
Well, I disagree with everything you said, pretty much to the letter.  Why?  Because none of what you said is true.  I could break down each point, but I've already done that, and it's in the vids.  We live in a material world, it is real and so-comm and capitalism are real.  One just has you decide which side of the fence one is on.

Watch the vids, maybe you will learn something.

To summarize ... but private capitalism and state capitalism (See US vs China) are just capitalism.  The problem, beyond Marx, is that humans are criminogenic, and that capitalism of any kind, is an extinction event.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 08:25:17 PM
Bolded:  logical fallacy, not possible.  Please study "class warfare" under capitalism.

Per Warren Buffett .. I know there is class warfare, and my class is winning.  But I like a friendly game of checkers ... I don't like how the game of Monopoly plays out in the end ;-(  But Monopoly is realistic, meant to be, it is a Depression era game, hopefully to un-program all the petite capitalists.  The ideal of a final state of society (other than extinction) is a bug-bear for both kinds of capitalism.  Humans aren't stable, neither are our societies ... they are chaotic, they are not evolving toward something peaceful, other than the cemetery.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 01:59:32 AM
He'd argue that it's all about maximal freedom, apparently implying that other positions are somehow less free.  I sell my goods and services, you sell your goods and services, and everyone gets what they want without the state ordering people around.

Also, we can get rid of violent crime by just mandating gun ownership for all non-criminals.

Don't compare those two statements too much or your head might explode.

You are idealizing as much as he is.  You can't get rid of the violent crime of the state.  And anarchism of capitalism (unregulated corporate crime) isn't the abolition of crime either.  The problem, per socialism, is that you are using money, which is invalid, and buying and selling, for which you have no social authorization (see police shutting down kid's lemonade stands), and dealing with property that you don't own (stolen goods, all the say down ... we are all thieves and fences).

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 02:13:35 AM
I put them there so people can actually learn something, because, no, they dont know about so-comm and they dont even understand capitalism--they cant define either.  Hence, they just usually have their uninformed opinion.  It's rather like debating religionists.

First rule of political-economics (and they can't be separated, I agree with Marx on that) is ... what the hell is money, and what is it good for?  Not one person in a hundred, have any reasonable answer, even though they deal with money every day.  People won't open their eyes, if opening them is a threat to their livelihood.  This is to the max with the plutocracy, and their insane materialism.  Economics isn't a science, it is a ritual, designed to cover the tracks of the criminals (like me).  For most people, religion is a crime too, and atheists have opened their eyes to that (but only because their livelihood doesn't depend on it).

There is a profound difference between knowledge and understanding.  Most people don't have knowledge, and fewer still have understanding.

Etienne - "Churches should pay taxes, I don't want to fund them" .. taxation should wither away, just like the state ;-))  Marx and Engels at least tried to come up with a non-partisan economics ... rather than just numerical propaganda buttressing the British Empire.  What is the purpose of taxation?  Do you even understand the nature of liquidity, and its flow?  In an era of digital money, that can be created at will (unlike gold coin) .. there is no reason for taxation at all ... other than to tyrannize the people.  Of course, that was part of its purpose, when we did have a gold standard.  Governments create money, not private parties (sorry bit-coin).  Money has values because ... armies and policemen.  To provide liquidity for the criminal class and the wanna-bees (see City of God by Augustine) ... the government has to provide a carrot and a stick.  The carrot is military expenses and public works ... the stick is taxes ... and punishment for any kind of disobedience.  Ancient Rome works the same today as yesterday, except electronic denarii.  One can have as much liquidity as one wants ... but liquidity isn't wealth, it is the grease that helps the gears in the transmission turn.  People who think that money is wealth ... are ape men.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 09:05:46 PM
  The 1st World owes it's material existence to the resources of the 3rd World, primarily, including the slave labor.  It is false to say that the US, thru political process, could change from capitalistic to socialistic--they are antithetic.  The US political bourgeois politics support the capitalists, that is it's function.  The US is an oligarchy, a plutocracy.

The USSR went from a backward, Czarist ruled feudalistic society to an industrialized socialistic country that became the #2 super power in roughly 20-30 years.  Maoist China did the same thing.  There was essentially no unemployment, homelessness or hunger in either country after the inititial transitions.  If you favor capitalism because you benefit from the exploitation of the working classes, especially in the 3rd World, it is your prerogative to think that way--since you materially benefit from it and apparently dont give a damn about the working class, which is consistent with capitalists. 

Embargos are real, economic warfare, and people die(just ask Iraq), and the US has blocked nearly all other countries from trading with Cuba, it is fact, it is an undebatable point.  And Cuba's main export in SUGAR.

Yes, the 1st World (tm) is a criminal enterprise.  We have been winning for 500 years now.  We will continue to win (what is now the N/S war, not the E/W war) until the pillaging is complete.  Life isn't fair, so might as well be an asshole.  The new stooge in Venezuela is quietly moving all of Venezuela's gold, that the previous patriot got back, to Switzerland, where the Rothschilds can transfer it to China.  All gold goes to China, except what goes to India.  Because in the new Feudalism (yes we are going backward, inevitably ... Marx was wrong on that) India and China will be #1, just as they were 500 years ago.  The Establishment, which is international (and only partly Jewish) has decided to end Western Civilization ... a reboot of Eastern Civilization is in the offing.  Get rid of your ancient Tandy computer, get the shiny new iCrap.  Statecraft is played on a very high level, and pawns are routinely sacrificed to protect the Queen (far more important than the King).

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 10:16:29 PM
A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another.

Mao only said that, because he failed as a Confucian scholar and gentleman.  He should have had his feet bound, and put in a Qipao Cheongsam:
http://www.idreammart.com/elegant-red-brocade-full-length-traditional-chinese-dress-qipao-cheongsam-21529007.html?gclid=CL3R9ui0ztICFUKSfgodRf0Cmg

He would have made honorable husband, very happy ;-))

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 10:42:33 PM
So-comm societies make mistakes, no doubt.  It's a heavy heavy lift to transform to a socialistic society.  AND the capitalists attack in every way and at every turn.  That is factual.   Just look at the constant US anti-commie propaganda for decades.

Reality also is, as long as you have an owning class with all the wealth and a wage slave working class, the latter will always seek to overthrow the former, doesnt matter what the former thinks about it.

We are going to replace all the slaves with robots, just like Marx imagined.  Only the Establishment is going to genocide 90% of the useless eaters ... not something that Marx imagined.  Marx was too nice.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 01:08:17 AM
Ok, my fee is $10k, line 'er up!

I don't know why this is so difficult for people(well I do, brainwashing).  It's all really quite simple, and so-comm is actually a scientific analysis of socio-economic phenomena, material relationships between humans.  So the science should have appeal to atheists, who tend to like science.

US or Austrian(Mises) Libertarianism is unfettered, or highly deregulated capitalism.  Wall St. is already there.  Communism is unfettered, well, socialism, so they are polar opposites.  Libertarianism is essentially fascism.

Marxism is 19th century radical criticism (empirical and rational).  It is essentially anti-Anglo-American (who were the dominant capitalists of his day).  If I weren't Anglo-American imperialist ... I would be Marxist myself (as part of the N/S struggle for fairness (actually domination by) the S (China + India).  The Chinese are now screwing Africa just like the Europeans did 100 years ago.  India of course, can't find its collective ass ... not real competition to China.  See "The Rise And Fall Of The Great Powers" and "Guns, Germs and Steel".  That is modern anthropology, drop the quaint 19th century versions.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 01:13:07 AM
Your free expression here is encouraged. ;)  Let 'er rip!  If, however, you're a Nazi, we have problems--bigly!

He isn't a Nazi, he is a Catholic monk wannabe .. like the founder of Cheka or Uncle Joe ;-)  And what do you have against guys with cute moustaches, eh?  Remember, in 21st century PC, you can't be bigoted against anyone, even Hitler.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 12:52:05 AM
I would pay good money (distributed according to need, of course) for you to debate our resident libertarian.  That would be epic.  I would eat my body weight in popcorn!

Waste of time, polar opposites are always wrong, both of them.  Nothing in excess - Delphic Oracle.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 04:35:05 PM
I don't read Chinese, I just look at the nice "pictures".  When I think "Dutch", I think Germanic capitalists, Deutsche Bank(Nazi) and such.  It's a bad habit of mine to do so.  Drumpf owes Deutsche Bank a 'yooge' amount of $, BTW.

I do read, a lot.  Including Jacobin (online Left cyber-mag).  Don't know much about China?  Watch ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLpZ_5bHmo8

I vote for the bandit ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 07:25:44 AM
Waste of time, polar opposites are always wrong, both of them.  Nothing in excess - Delphic Oracle.

No, there is right and there is wrong, and the socialists are right...er, Left...er....

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 07:27:02 AM
I do read, a lot.  Including Jacobin (online Left cyber-mag).  Don't know much about China?  Watch ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLpZ_5bHmo8

I vote for the bandit ;-)

What on Earth does one DO with Jacobin?!  Maybe I don't wanna know.  I think I may have seen that Shao Lin warrior flick one night, when I was half asleep. I think they recently uncovered another army of dead petrified Chinese soldiers on horseback, if I'm not mistaken. Xin Dynasty.  And I know alot about the inner struggles of Jackie Chan.  That's gotta count for something.

Well, I'm Brasilian Portugues, most beautiful idioma on the planet, plus the best "garotas belezas"!:

(http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/slides/photos/001/926/906/BrazilHotFemaleFans-SexyBrazilianSoccerGirls4_display_image_crop_north.jpg?w=288&h=400&q=75)

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 07:18:17 AM
He isn't a Nazi, he is a Catholic monk wannabe .. like the founder of Cheka or Uncle Joe ;-)  And what do you have against guys with cute moustaches, eh?  Remember, in 21st century PC, you can't be bigoted against anyone, even Hitler.

Memo:  Hitler's dead.  Just like any Nazi I meet on the street.  Nazis are good for ^&^%$%# them, that's why they exist.  Once they put on that swastika, they have chosen sides, the wrong side.  Antifa, baby.
(https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.323064497.1413/sticker,375x360.u2.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Antifa.svg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmeVTRRKsI

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 07:38:29 AM
No, there is right and there is wrong, and the socialists are right...er, Left...er....

I am ambidextrous.  Neither R nor D (aka L).  I can out talk you, with both lips tied behind my back ;-)

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 08:04:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmeVTRRKsI

Yea, I will take the Chinese girl (from 20 years ago) over some middle aged White guy, anytime.  Among ape stupidity, the idea that skin color gives you superiority is the stupidest.

You are probably aware, of the most recent genetic data ... that most Black Africans are in fact different from the rest of us ... most of us are hybrids with those same Black Africans and the Neanderthals etc living outside of Africa 100,000 years ago.  The Black Africans are the Aryans, not the blond people, most of us are ligers (lion tiger hybrid), not pedigreed like you average Bushman.  So one mongrel to another (unless you are of pure Angola descent from Brazil) .. we can sniff each other's butts anytime.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 08:04:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmeVTRRKsI

(https://s27.postimg.org/aztnnm3tv/2017_Berkley_Alt_Right_vs_Antifa_HIGHQUALITY.gif?noredir=1)

Over time, the Brown Shirts have become the Black Shirts ... because they still can't find the laundromat.

Catholicism has nothing to do with Nazis, right?

(http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/files/2008/09/benedict-face.jpg)(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LcWUs04eZGE/TbqysxSOd1I/AAAAAAAATCE/ShUvPBXkJqY/s400/K%25C3%25A4mpfe%252C%2BHelmut%2BObersturmbannf%25C3%25BChrer%2Bder%2BReserve.jpg)(http://www.theknightstemplar.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Ship-Real-Small.png)(http://tightrope.cc/catalog/images/patch_blood-drop.jpg)(http://www.asianwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/thevaticanratlines.jpg)

I mean I can get behind communism to some extent. It's just unfortunate that so many communists follow the religion of identity politics and would call for a communist state which kills any dissenters. For example go check out the communism or socialism subreddits. These people think anyone with a different opinion on social matters should be censored at best and outright killed at worst. The communism they would create would fail in the same way all previous tries at communism failed. They'd produce fascism.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 08:56:25 AM
Catholicism has nothing to do with Nazis, right?

Of course it does.  WW I and its continuation, WW II ... all have to do with the Vatican.  Do does the Cold War.  Do you think this has ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union?  This is all about the restoration of monarchism and absolutism, as envisaged circa 1900.  Remember, nobody expects ... duh, duh ... duh ... the Spanish Inquisition!  As someone who has cohabited with the enemy, formerly being married to a former nun ... I can speak with some experience.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 09:09:52 AM
I mean I can get behind communism to some extent. It's just unfortunate that so many communists follow the religion of identity politics and would call for a communist state which kills any dissenters. For example go check out the communism or socialism subreddits. These people think anyone with a different opinion on social matters should be censored at best and outright killed at worst. The communism they would create would fail in the same way all previous tries at communism failed. They'd produce fascism.

Extinction is the master plan of the Establishment.  Don't be a tool for your enemies.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 09:09:52 AM
I mean I can get behind communism to some extent. It's just unfortunate that so many communists follow the religion of identity politics and would call for a communist state which kills any dissenters. For example go check out the communism or socialism subreddits. These people think anyone with a different opinion on social matters should be censored at best and outright killed at worst. The communism they would create would fail in the same way all previous tries at communism failed. They'd produce fascism.

Alot to unpack there.  Most Commies I know don't get caught up ID politics.  Most States incarcerate or kill dissenters if they become a threat to the State, or The People.  CONINTELPRO v Black Panthers--I rest my case.  TONS of censorship in the good ol' USA:  NSA, I rest my case again.

So-Comm doesn't fail.  There are plenty of evidentiary vids on the subject, but people dont watch vids 'round here, so I'm told.  Like religionists, they just rely on their opinion.

So-Comm and fascism, I repeat, are antithetic.  If a State becomes fascist, then it is fascist, it's not So-Comm anymore.

Hey, did you hear where Rebby the Rebel Hunting Dawg got busted at the protest march?  Yeah, they charged him with engaging in di-SCENT!  (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/Triumph,_the_Insult_Comic_Dog.png/250px-Triumph,_the_Insult_Comic_Dog.png)

Okie dokie artichokie.  ;)

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 09:32:22 AM
Of course it does.  WW I and its continuation, WW II ... all have to do with the Vatican.  Do does the Cold War.  Do you think this has ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union?  This is all about the restoration of monarchism and absolutism, as envisaged circa 1900.  Remember, nobody expects ... duh, duh ... duh ... the Spanish Inquisition!  As someone who has cohabited with the enemy, formerly being married to a former nun ... I can speak with some experience.

I'd like to hear more about the bolded.

Nun, in "The Young Pope".
(http://cdn.newsbusters.org/styles/blog_body-50/s3/images/screen_shot_2017-01-17_at_4.51.09_pm_0.png)

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 08:49:28 AM
(https://s27.postimg.org/aztnnm3tv/2017_Berkley_Alt_Right_vs_Antifa_HIGHQUALITY.gif?noredir=1)

Seriously, those kids need to learn how to fight better:

(http://68.media.tumblr.com/cabf2cc924d4685fdb951fe0e620df5c/tumblr_ndcwqeWUt31ry1rm7o1_400.gif)

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 10:07:43 AMMost States incarcerate or kill dissenters if they become a threat to the State, or The People.

He was referring to killing dissenters.  It'd take a pretty warped person to seriously claim that it's ethically justified to kill dissenters merely for dissenting.

QuoteTONS of censorship in the good ol' USA

That's true.  But it's pretty minor compared to China, let alone North Korea.

QuoteSo-Comm doesn't fail.  There are plenty of evidentiary vids on the subject, but people dont watch vids 'round here, so I'm told.  Like religionists, they just rely on their opinion.

That's not--- *sigh*

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 10:43:49 AM
He was referring to killing dissenters.  It'd take a pretty warped person to seriously claim that it's ethically justified to kill dissenters merely for dissenting.
That's true.  But it's pretty minor compared to China, let alone North Korea.
That's not--- *sigh*

COINTELPRO brutally killed and imprisoned about all the Panther leadership, that is FACT.  Why?  Because the Panthers were Marxists and Maoists, and they had guns, lots of them.  2nd Amendment, right?(The Panthers are back, BTW).  And before that, CONINTELPRO was the program busting "commies" in general in the USA rrom the mid 30s on--"Red Scare", "McCartheyism", remember?  And so much for the 1st Amendment.

What about Jim Crow Laws for 70 odd years?  Shall I go on?  Tell you what, just go down Main St USA waving a Soviet flag or a Mao/Marx/Lenin/Che Guevara flag and see how far that gets you.  "Patriots" themselves will kick your ass, they dont need the State.  "Patriots" defend the capitalistic system that is f'ing them--isn't propaganda a beautiful thing?  Let The People do your work for you(the State).

Also, no, the NSA and all the related police state agencies of the USA  FAR exceed what the DPRK and China, or any other regime in history has ever even dreamed of.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 10:27:57 PM
Communism and American Libertarianism are polar opposites, the latter being extreme, unregulated capitalism.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to address people who disagree with you. In a communist society, how do you intend to deal with the problems of social loafing and the tragedy of the commons? And yes, you and libertarians are flip sides of the same coin because you are both trying to achieve the same thing: A stateless society. The only difference is the means of getting there.

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 11, 2017, 11:09:36 AM
If you want to be taken seriously, you need to address people who disagree with you. In a communist society, how do you intend to deal with the problems of social loafing and tragedy of the commons? And yes, you and libertarians are flip sides of the same coin and you are both trying to achieve the same thing: A stateless society. The only difference is the means of getting there.

I kind of have been addressing people, 'case you hadn't noticed.  Of course, THEY never provide any evidence to support their opinions.  Naw, you're absolutely full of shit re Libertarianism and Communism, you dont know what you are talking about. They are polar opposites, PERIOD.  Read a book on the subject.

And your "loafing" argument is bogus too.  I dont have the interest to break it down for you, since you are set on your US manufactured opinion anyway.  There're no loafers in the USA or Western Europe, right?  Do stock dividend hoarders loaf?  Yeah, thats about all they do.  $ for nothing, sitting on their asses all day.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 11:17:34 AM
I kind of have been addressing people, 'case you hadn't noticed.  Of course, THEY never provide any evidence to support their opinions.  Naw, you're full of shit re Libertarianism and Communism, you dont know what you are talking about.  And your "loafing" argument is bogus too.  I dont have the interest to break it down for you, since you are set on your US manufactured opinion anyway.  There're no loafers in the USA or Western Europe, right?  Do stock dividend hoarders loaf?  Yeah, thats about all they do.  $ for nothing.

Ok then. Just like the libertarians, I will no longer take you seriously. Have fun.

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 11, 2017, 11:19:39 AM
Ok then. Just like the libertarians, I will no longer take you seriously. Have fun.

Good, stay off this thread.

For the hard-of-thinking, Modern American Libertarianism is NOT Communism:

QuoteModern American Libertarianism

By around the start of the 20th century H. L. Mencken and Albert Jay Nock were the first prominent figures in the United States to describe themselves as libertarians...they believed Franklin D. Roosevelt had co-opted the word liberal for his New Deal policies, which they opposed, and used libertarian to signify their allegiance to individualism.[citation needed] In 1914, Nock joined the staff of The Nation magazine, which at the time was supportive of liberal capitalism.

Executive Vice-President of the Cato Institute, David Boaz, writes "In 1943, at one of the lowest points for liberty and humanity in history, three remarkable women published books that could be said to have given birth to the modern libertarian movement."....Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead...promoted individualism and capitalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Modern_American_libertarianism

"Individualism" is another big fat propaganda LIE.  There ARE no "individuals":  human beings are SOCIAL MAMMALS.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 11:45:34 AMFor the hard-of-thinking, Modern American Libertarianism is NOT Communism

Did anyone say it was?   :headscratch:

Quote"Individualism" is another big fat propaganda LIE.  There ARE no "individuals"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 10:58:58 AMTell you what, just go down Main St USA waving a Soviet flag or a Mao/Marx/Lenin/Che Guevara flag and see how far that gets you.  "Patriots" themselves will kick your ass

Ummm...that's not actually true.

(http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/moaist.jpg)

(http://www.trevorloudon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Cpmmmmmmm.jpg)

(http://usherald.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/5667457457456.png)

By and large, these protests neither initiate nor are on the receiving end of violence.  Freedom of speech and association is something we take very seriously here.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 12:20:00 PM
Ummm...that's not actually true.

(http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/moaist.jpg)

(http://www.trevorloudon.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Cpmmmmmmm.jpg)

(http://usherald.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/5667457457456.png)

By and large, these protests neither initiate nor are on the receiving end of violence.  Freedom of speech and association is something we take very seriously here.

Go do that in rural Alabama(Trumpland) with no police protection.

(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder324/250x250/60670324.jpg)

The KKK(http://tightrope.cc/catalog/images/patch_blood-drop.jpg) is Anti-Communist

QuoteBirmingham...The head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, appeared more concerned about Communist links to civil rights activists than about controlling Klan excesses against citizens. In 1964, the FBI's COINTELPRO program began attempts to infiltrate and disrupt civil rights groups.

Massacre of Communist Workers Party protesters

On November 3, 1979, five communist protesters were killed by KKK and American Nazi Party members in Greensboro, North Carolina in what is known as the Greensboro massacre.  The Communist Workers Party had sponsored a rally against the Klan in an effort to organize predominantly black industrial workers in the area.  Klan members drove up with arms in their car trunks, and attacked marchers.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/02/27/21/3DC6D7BD00000578-0-image-a-12_1488229701225.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Massacre_of_Communist_Workers_Party_protesters

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 10:18:45 AM
I'd like to hear more about the bolded.

This is all about the restoration of monarchism and absolutism, as envisaged circa 1900.

The Papacy assigned half the world to Spain and the other half to Portugal, in 1498, at the Treaty of Tordesillas:
http://theageofdiscovery.wikispaces.com/The+Treaty+of+Tordesillas

Per the absolute monarchism the Catholic Church has called for absolute monarchy, under the Pope, who rules the Cardinals as a dictator, and who rules the secular rulers (who are also absolute monarchs) as a dictator.  Hence the Counter-Reformation, which continues until this day ... to undermine the Enlightenment, including all republics and all democracies.  The Popes since 1870, has implemented the final plan, because of the existential threat that France was to the Papal States in that year.  WW I was a plan by the Catholic countries to conquer the world, because the British and French empires were too powerful.  Germany/Austria/Italy were the Central Powers (Italy failed to carry out their role, and betrayed their allies).  In WW II; Portugal, Spain, Italy, Austria and Germany were allies again, with Italy staying in the group.  And side kicks in Latin America.  The Russian Revolution was another existential threat, that continues until this day (hence the attempt to use Ukraine to invade Russia).

(https://img.ifcdn.com/images/968272f7f2d2fd45ae5d9abf2ad60019401da6394a93ae69d305871820568324_1.jpg)

(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1481/22/1481226939513.png)

(https://img.ifcdn.com/images/4ad2ebf14560dca747d0032405548000105ba397abd620cc9618b28abe82ed5c_1.jpg)

(http://2static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Ancap_39e3ea_6028340.jpg)

Political-economics has to take into account, how people actually are ... not because of Rousseau or Hegel or Marx (who stole from the other two) ... then you realize that people are shits anyway, and the only way to motivate them is with carrots and sticks, like the donkeys they are.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 07:03:59 PM
(https://img.ifcdn.com/images/968272f7f2d2fd45ae5d9abf2ad60019401da6394a93ae69d305871820568324_1.jpg)

(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1481/22/1481226939513.png)

(https://img.ifcdn.com/images/4ad2ebf14560dca747d0032405548000105ba397abd620cc9618b28abe82ed5c_1.jpg)

(http://2static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Ancap_39e3ea_6028340.jpg)

Well, there's never actually been a communist society in modern times, they've all been or are socialist.  Your 2nd pic describes dog eat dog capitalism perfectly.  But, I get it, you love yerself some capitalism--as long as you dont have to do the work. ;)  You really dont have to be on this thread, just a hint, ;)

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 08:06:02 PM
Well, there's never actually been a communist society in modern times, they've all been or are socialist.  Your 2nd pic describes dog eat dog capitalism perfectly.  But, I get it, you love yerself some capitalism--as long as you dont have to do the work. ;)  You really dont have to be on this thread, just a hint, ;)

I'd rather be dead than red.

(http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_CifE5Ycw4eJJcVlIQmULqqh0D2vKXc4j,w400.jpg)

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 08:22:32 PM
I'd rather be dead than red.

(http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_CifE5Ycw4eJJcVlIQmULqqh0D2vKXc4j,w400.jpg)

May happen sooner than you think.  Enjoy your day.

Well, if nothing else, this thread is proving what I suspected all along is that Western atheists are generally capitalists and are generally unable, like non atheists, to apply reason to socioeconomic issues.  Or, more precisely, they don't like or believe in the "equality" of which they preach all the time. 

If any of you think like Sam Harris, who is waiting for science to find the ""economic gene" or discover neuro pathways in the brain indicative of "inherent correct economics", you will die waiting, because it isnt' going to happen like that.  We already have socioeconomic science, it's called "Marxism". Socioeconomics are inventions of human beings in material relations to each other in the material world.  Historical Materialist theory IS, therefore, scientific.

Sam Harris, Dawkins, Krauss, etc, are all dyed in the wool capitalists anyway.  Why?  Because they are petit bourgeoisie, they dont do any of the "heavy lifting" in the world.  Never get their hands dirty.  They benefit from their cushy lives.  Dont have to pick their own tomatoes in the blazing sun, 14 hrs a day for 20 bucks.  Has Sam Harris ever worked a day in his life?  No.  He's Hollywood, his mom a movie producer and dad an actor. He went to Stanford and took some "time off" on a vision quest in India or something.  Now he writes atheism as if he" discovered" it. He's working the "intelligensia" circuit, waiting for the next 'big discovery' thats going to 'change the game' toward 'progress'.  Walmart, now there's some 'progress' for you.  If the electrical grid ever goes down, you'll see some "progress".  Thats all it would take to show that "Modern Man" is still basically a mammal.

Seth Andrews, now theres a petit bourgeois pc of work for ya.  Spent most of his life pumping Jesus on the circuit, then found the "No God" and now he's making the big $ on the atheist circuit.  Why?  Because he has a nice voice.  Also, never worked a day in his life.  Thinks food comes from grocery store shelves.

Hitchens was a Marxist for a time, until The Man bought him off.

Why is communism preferable to democratic capitalism with really good social policies?

Also why do you think violence is justified against non-violence?

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 07:08:00 PM
Political-economics has to take into account, how people actually are ... not because of Rousseau or Hegel or Marx (who stole from the other two) ... then you realize that people are shits anyway, and the only way to motivate them is with carrots and sticks, like the donkeys they are.

Thats rather nihilistic.  Note:

Donkey
(http://www.livescience.com/images/i/000/082/414/original/donkey-face.jpg?interpolation=lanczos-none&fit=around%7C300:200&crop=300:200;*,*)

Humans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC2VEr_6Ivo

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 08:54:13 PM
Why is communism preferable to democratic capitalism with really good social policies?

Also why do you think violence is justified against non-violence?

Capitalism is inherently unequal(owners v wage workers) and is sustained with massive amounts of violence.  Communism is the converse of that.  In 3-4 generations of socialism, communism would occur quite naturally.  It's the natural state.  P.S., there is no real functioning democracy in capitalism because it is inherently unequal.  The current oligarchy is one "small" pc of evidence.

Violence is just when it is used to eliminate injustice and attain justice--which is fairness, equality.  Power does not yield without a demand.  That demand, therefore, usually involves violence.  That is why socialists/communists are just in neutralizing or killing fascists, because fascists represent injustice and inequality sustained thru violence.  Fascists will kill you anyway in a heartbeat.   The struggle between fascists(capitalists) and so-comm is ongoing until the former is eliminated and or absorbed.  If there were no capitalists, fascists, there would be no violence.  But Life itself is a struggle just to stay alive, socialism is the best way to mitigate that struggle.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 09:17:13 PM
Capitalism is inherently unequal(owners v wage workers) and is sustained with massive amounts of violence.  Communism is the converse of that.  In 3-4 generations of socialism, communism would occur quite naturally.  It's the natural state.  P.S., there is no real functioning democracy in capitalism because it is inherently unequal.  The current oligarchy is one "small" pc of evidence.

Violence is just when it is used to eliminate injustice and attain justice--which is fairness, equality.  Power does not yield without a demand.  That demand, therefore, usually involves violence.  That is why socialists/communists are just in neutralizing or killing fascists, because fascists represent injustice and inequality sustained thru violence.  Fascists will kill you anyway in a heartbeat.   The struggle between fascists(capitalists) and so-comm is ongoing until the former is eliminated and or absorbed.  If there were no capitalists, fascists, there would be no violence.  But Life itself is a struggle just to stay alive, but socialism is the best way to mitigate that struggle.

>"Capitalism is inherently unequal(owners v wage workers)"

Yes, but inequality - that is; 'difference' - isn't inherently bad.

>"P.S., there is no real functioning democracy in capitalism because it is inherently unequal"

This is demonstrably false.

>"The struggle between fascists(capitalists)"

This is a false equivalence.

Also, how can communism survive groups of people who wish to reinstate capitalism? How will it quell them?

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 05:15:50 PM
The Papacy assigned half the world to Spain and the other half to Portugal, in 1498, at the Treaty of Tordesillas:
http://theageofdiscovery.wikispaces.com/The+Treaty+of+Tordesillas

Per the absolute monarchism the Catholic Church has called for absolute monarchy, under the Pope, who rules the Cardinals as a dictator, and who rules the secular rulers (who are also absolute monarchs) as a dictator.  Hence the Counter-Reformation, which continues until this day ... to undermine the Enlightenment, including all republics and all democracies.  The Popes since 1870, has implemented the final plan, because of the existential threat that France was to the Papal States in that year.  WW I was a plan by the Catholic countries to conquer the world, because the British and French empires were too powerful.  Germany/Austria/Italy were the Central Powers (Italy failed to carry out their role, and betrayed their allies).  In WW II; Portugal, Spain, Italy, Austria and Germany were allies again, with Italy staying in the group.  And side kicks in Latin America.  The Russian Revolution was another existential threat, that continues until this day (hence the attempt to use Ukraine to invade Russia).

Hmm, thanks, I did not know these things, specifically.  Well, it makes sense and it is always interesting when a certain small group of people decide they want to dictate the rest of the world--and there are many such small enclaves.  What's amazing is that they are able to maintain this vast illusion of religious power in the context of the actuality of no God.  Such is power.  Money, like God, is a similar illusory control tactic.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 09:27:16 PM
>"Capitalism is inherently unequal(owners v wage workers)"

Yes, but inequality - that is; 'difference' - isn't inherently bad.

>"P.S., there is no real functioning democracy in capitalism because it is inherently unequal"

This is demonstrably false.

>"The struggle between fascists(capitalists)"

This is a false equivalence.

Also, how can communism survive groups of people who wish to reinstate capitalism? How will it quell them?

1)--It is not a matter of "difference", it is a matter of the material relationship of one class--the owners--to the other class--the workers.  To hoard wealth, as per the rules of capitalism, you have to become an owner--of the means of production.  Most rational human beings I know conclude that the hoarding of wealth by a relative few, and the subsequent unequal access to resources for survival, is "bad".

2)--Ok, demonstrate it.

3)--No, capitalism is authoritarian, or oligarchic, or plutocratic, and the merger of the corporate/State is the main aspect of the definition of fascism.  "Fascismo e il corporativismo"(Mussollini)

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 08:48:02 PMSam Harris, Dawkins, Krauss, etc, are all dyed in the wool capitalists anyway.  Why?  Because they are petit bourgeoisie, they dont do any of the "heavy lifting" in the world.  Never get their hands dirty.  They benefit from their cushy lives.

I'm starting to see how intellectuals in Communist countries have had a strange habit of winding up dead.  For some, it's a great leap forward.  For others, it's being pushed down a ravine.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 10:57:28 PM
I'm starting to see how intellectuals in Communist countries have had a strange habit of winding up dead.  For some, it's a great leap forward.  For others, it's being pushed down a ravine.

Can you give some examples?

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 09:17:13 PMCapitalism is inherently unequal(owners v wage workers) and is sustained with massive amounts of violence.  Communism is the converse of that.

(http://all-that-is-interesting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/global-peace-index-2016-map.png)

QuoteViolence is just when it is used to eliminate injustice and attain justice--which is fairness, equality.

The ends justify the means, huh?  That's an awfully dark path to go down and that path might not take you where you think it does.

QuotePower does not yield without a demand.   That demand, therefore, usually involves violence.

I noticed a usually there, seemingly conceding that violence is often not necessary.  In fact, it's fairly routine for policy changes to be undertaken without the slightest drop of blood being spilled.  You really ought to look into that.  It might save you a lot of trouble in the future.

QuoteThat is why socialists/communists are just in neutralizing or killing fascists, because fascists represent injustice and inequality sustained thru violence.

At the time, they had unwisely declared war with a ton of countries and created death camps in the countries they occupied, so stopping them with violence was simply self-defense.

Since the end of the great patriotic war and the subsequent decline of fascism, it's a lot less justifiable.  It smacks of criminalizing attitudes rather than behaviors.  And your bizarre conflation between capitalist and fascist makes this quote even more disquieting.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 08:06:02 PM
Well, there's never actually been a communist society in modern times, they've all been or are socialist.  Your 2nd pic describes dog eat dog capitalism perfectly.  But, I get it, you love yerself some capitalism--as long as you dont have to do the work. ;)  You really dont have to be on this thread, just a hint, ;)

Communism (fictionally) only existed in the Messianic Jewish community, before 70 CE.  See the Book of Acts.  This is where everyone, including Marx, stole the idea of equalitarian society (as opposed to egalitarian society).

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 10:59:35 PM
Can you give some examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Intelligentsia

"In the 1920s and 1930s, 2,000 writers, intellectuals, and artists were imprisoned and 1,500 died in prisons and concentration camps. After sunspot development research was judged un-Marxist, twenty-seven astronomers disappeared between 1936 and 1938. The Meteorological Office was violently purged as early as 1933 for failing to predict weather harmful to the crops. But the toll was especially high among writers. Those who perished during the Great Purge include:"

I cut it off there because the rest of the section is just a long list of intellectuals accused of alleged subversive activities, some of which probably involve cursing the soil or casting a magic spell to make their torturer hurt them against their torturer's will.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 09:34:13 PM
Hmm, thanks, I did not know these things, specifically.  Well, it makes sense and it is always interesting when a certain small group of people decide they want to dictate the rest of the world--and there are many such small enclaves.  What's amazing is that they are able to maintain this vast illusion of religious power in the context of the actuality of no God.  Such is power.  Money, like God, is a similar illusory control tactic.

Emperor Constantine would agree with you.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 11:32:27 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Intelligentsia

"In the 1920s and 1930s, 2,000 writers, intellectuals, and artists were imprisoned and 1,500 died in prisons and concentration camps. After sunspot development research was judged un-Marxist, twenty-seven astronomers disappeared between 1936 and 1938. The Meteorological Office was violently purged as early as 1933 for failing to predict weather harmful to the crops. But the toll was especially high among writers. Those who perished during the Great Purge include:"

I cut it off there because the rest of the section is just a long list of intellectuals accused of alleged subversive activities, some of which probably involve cursing the soil or casting a magic spell to make their torturer hurt them against their torturer's will.

All part of "controlling the narrative".  We see this in action with the MSM and CIA leaks today.  And only a few writers are assassinated ... most get the message before it goes that far.

Quote from: etienne on March 11, 2017, 09:56:45 PM
1)--It is not a matter of "difference", it is a matter of the material relationship of one class--the owners--to the other class--the workers.  To hoard wealth, as per the rules of capitalism, you have to become an owner--of the means of production.  Most rational human beings I know conclude that the hoarding of wealth by a relative few, and the subsequent unequal access to resources for survival, is "bad".

2)--Ok, demonstrate it.

3)--No, capitalism is authoritarian, or oligarchic, or plutocratic, and the merger of the corporate/State is the main aspect of the definition of fascism.  "Fascismo e il corporativismo"(Mussollini)

>"--It is not a matter of "difference", it is a matter of the material relationship of one class--the owners--to the other class--the workers.  To hoard wealth, as per the rules of capitalism, you have to become an owner--of the means of production.  Most rational human beings I know conclude that the hoarding of wealth by a relative few, and the subsequent unequal access to resources for survival, is "bad"."

Right, and what you're describing here isn't inherently bad. Capitalism with checks and balances - that is; social policies - can make for a very not-bad society.

>"--Ok, demonstrate it."

What do you think, for example, Canada is? Would you contend that Canada is both not 1; capitalist and 2; democratic?

>"capitalism is authoritarian, or oligarchic, or plutocratic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

>"the merger of the corporate/State is the main aspect of the definition of fascism."

If that is the only criteria that need be met for a society to be defined as a fascist state, then all socialist states are also fascist states. In socialism, the people effectively become the state, and they seize the means of production - that is; they seize the corporate. This is an oxymoron, of course - but it's your oxymoron. Or maybe it isn't so much an oxymoron; Socialism and fascism look very much alike, certainly. What marks the difference, really, is whether or not it is conservative.

Deep Space Nine:
Raum (brother of Quark) ... we don't want to end exploitation of the workers, we want to join it.

Perfect American, that.  The US is a spin off criminal enterprise, the original crime syndicates being the British Empire in general, and the British West Indies Company in particular.  Fascist from 1776.  The problem is we are running out of people to exploit, who don't fight back.  The marks are fighting back, hence Libya, Yemen, Syria, Ukraine ... the end of the American Dream, is that we are not only not joining the "rentiers", we are being kicked out of the club.  See George Carlin please.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 07:07:12 AM


One thing that bothers me about most atheists, is that most are still capitalists and don't seem to have thought about that too much while voicing all their alleged "freedom".

etienne, a little of my background.  I was a product of the American public school system.  Therefore I loved American, the land of the brave, home of the free and righteous.  The one true country in which one is free to do as they please to either succeed or fail or try as often as one liked.  When I went to college and began taking 'real' history classes, my eyes were slowly opened and I began the journey of learning more of this countries real history. 

This is where I am now.  I have come to realize that no set of political 'ism' works in it's 'pure' form.  Capitalism, communism, fascism, socialism, or any other ism, has ever been practiced in it's pure form on any other than a very small scale.  Why?  They cannot work.  The most successful forms of govt. are blends of ism's.   When the communist scare grew after WWII, I began looking at what communism was, and found out that Marxist communism was not practiced anywhere, anytime.  Leninist and especially Stalinist Russia, for example, was different than Maoist China or any other communism.  They were simply forms of totalitarianism or dicatorship.    Anyway, capitalism unregulated results in it's own form of dictatorship--rule by the few.  What this country has now is rule by corporation; our Supreme Court makes no bones about it--corps are people too and eminent domain  can happen to anybody anywhere--if the stat or corp wants your land.  This country really is ruled by the .1%.  What we need is a form of a blended govt with elements of capitalism and socialism--and any other ism element that makes our society an actual free one of equal opportunities.

Yeah, this is generalized.  But that is how I generally see it.  Probably won't view the video's and can't give you specific sites or quotes to back up what I think.  I could dig them out, but at this point in my life I have accepted that I have evolved (devolved) into a video-idiot.  Love my strat games.

Even if FDR had been preserved in Tupperware, and President-for-Life aka always ... Western Civ would still be going down.  But at least we wouldn't be at each other's throats so much.  FDR was hated in his time, by the 0.1% in particular.  People need to ask why that was.  How could he ally with Uncle Joe Stalin, when Brother Adolf was our natural ally?

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 11:20:11 PM
(http://all-that-is-interesting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/global-peace-index-2016-map.png)
The ends justify the means, huh?  That's an awfully dark path to go down and that path might not take you where you think it does.
I noticed a usually there, seemingly conceding that violence is often not necessary.  In fact, it's fairly routine for policy changes to be undertaken without the slightest drop of blood being spilled.  You really ought to look into that.  It might save you a lot of trouble in the future.
At the time, they had unwisely declared war with a ton of countries and created death camps in the countries they occupied, so stopping them with violence was simply self-defense.

Since the end of the great patriotic war and the subsequent decline of fascism, it's a lot less justifiable.  It smacks of criminalizing attitudes rather than behaviors.  And your bizarre conflation between capitalist and fascist makes this quote even more disquieting.

That map would make good tp.  Really, who composed the map, the U.N?

Well, if Power yields itself, then you dont have to use violence, correct?  But we are talking about revolution here, not policy reform.

Nazism, fascism is back, above ground, all over the world and particularly in the current White Haus administration.  It's time to fight fascists, unless you are one of them. 

Quote from: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 11:29:54 PM
Communism (fictionally) only existed in the Messianic Jewish community, before 70 CE.  See the Book of Acts.  This is where everyone, including Marx, stole the idea of equalitarian society (as opposed to egalitarian society).

Marx wrote of the "primitive communism" of hunter gatherer societies that existed for millenia.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 11, 2017, 07:03:59 PM
(https://img.ifcdn.com/images/968272f7f2d2fd45ae5d9abf2ad60019401da6394a93ae69d305871820568324_1.jpg)

(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1481/22/1481226939513.png)

Yo, G, since everyone has gotten a chance to view your self expression thru 4 large and tacky pictures, would it be too much to ask that you go back and edit at least a few of those out so we dont have to scroll thru all that mess everytime?  And I would kindly request that you limit the verticals too a tasteful minimum on future posts.  Thanks.

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 12, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
etienne, a little of my background.  I was a product of the American public school system.  Therefore I loved American, the land of the brave, home of the free and righteous.  The one true country in which one is free to do as they please to either succeed or fail or try as often as one liked.  When I went to college and began taking 'real' history classes, my eyes were slowly opened and I began the journey of learning more of this countries real history. 

This is where I am now.  I have come to realize that no set of political 'ism' works in it's 'pure' form.  Capitalism, communism, fascism, socialism, or any other ism, has ever been practiced in it's pure form on any other than a very small scale.  Why?  They cannot work.  The most successful forms of govt. are blends of ism's.   When the communist scare grew after WWII, I began looking at what communism was, and found out that Marxist communism was not practiced anywhere, anytime.  Leninist and especially Stalinist Russia, for example, was different than Maoist China or any other communism.  They were simply forms of totalitarianism or dictatorship.    Anyway, capitalism unregulated results in it's own form of dictatorship--rule by the few.  What this country has now is rule by corporation; our Supreme Court makes no bones about it--corps are people too and eminent domain  can happen to anybody anywhere--if the stat or corp wants your land.  This country really is ruled by the .1%.  What we need is a form of a blended govt with elements of capitalism and socialism--and any other ism element that makes our society an actual free one of equal opportunities.

Yeah, this is generalized.  But that is how I generally see it.  Probably won't view the video's and can't give you specific sites or quotes to back up what I think.  I could dig them out, but at this point in my life I have accepted that I have evolved (devolved) into a video-idiot.  Love my strat games.

Thanks.  Well, if you don't view the 1st 4 short vids I posted then you will most likely continue to not understand what so-comm is, like everybody else here not named "etienne", and how it has been and currently is practiced in various countries.  That's why I posted them so I don't have to keep explaining terms and concepts over and over to every single American, and otherwise, that comes along.  Ain't got time for that. I can't make it easier for folks.  If a person isn't interested in learning, they aren't interested, but then their opinions are not based in fact and they remain ignorant on the subject.

For e.g., I have said repeatedly that capitalism and socialism are antithetic which they, in fact, ARE.  They don't mix, oil and water, there is either one or the other. It's about which CLASS controls the means of production.  Socialism is the replacement of capitalism and vice versa.  Tax redistribution within the capitalist system is not socialism.  And I'm not going to repeat that anymore.  That is called "democratic socialism", and if people would watch just one of those vids I kindly posted, I wouldnt have to keep going over it and they would sound more intelligent when they spoke.

The rest of your critique of the USA is correct.  We live in a corporate/State fascist oligarch, with a thin facade of representative democracy..  Fascism is extreme capitalism when the latter becomes at it's height of instability.  That's when the autocrat shows up and that's what we have in the USA right now.  Anyone who doesn't know that is ignorant on the subject.  But no, we are not free, The Man controls the $, and wage workers are particularly not free.  Slaves are not free.  Human traffickees(the new name for "slaves) are not free.  If you are not the Boss, then you have a Boss.  You are not free if your options are to work for a Boss, pay taxes or starve to death homeless.  Starvation is violence. Money is control. The more $ you have the more "free" you are to exert power over other's resources--time, energy, thought, $--because $ is "freedom" and power in a system controlled by $.

P.S, The Maoists actually did attain full communism in some of their communes.

Quote from: etienne on March 12, 2017, 02:27:24 PM
Marx wrote of the "primitive communism" of hunter gatherer societies that existed for millenia.

Who stole the idea from Rousseau, the guy who love the Noble Savage ... even David Hume, came to loath Rousseau ... schizoid frog.

Yes, I would love hunter/gather society ... if you don't bring back some meat to the tribe, I am going to cook you for dinner ;-)

Early Israelis, were also fascist commies ... in their kibbutz and moshav.  And yes, we need a giant Cultural Revolution ... give the majority of humanity a one way trip ... useless rice eaters that they are.  Death is very educational, particularly in Cambodia.

Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2017, 03:57:50 PM
Who stole the idea from Rousseau, the guy who love the Noble Savage ... even David Hume, came to loath Rousseau ... schizoid frog.

Yes, I would love hunter/gather society ... if you don't bring back some meat to the tribe, I am going to cook you for dinner ;-)

Early Israelis, were also fascist commies ... in their kibbutz and moshav.  And yes, we need a giant Cultural Revolution ... give the majority of humanity a one way trip ... useless rice eaters that they are.  Death is very educational, particularly in Cambodia.

I know some Kibbutzim "survivors" who now live in Jersey.  They practiced 'free love' and so many of the kids are pretty confused about "family" when encountering the standard nuclear family.  They were mostly owning class intellectual people living there as a state capitalist subsidized experiment in communal living.  So, they weren't self sufficient, in other words.  Chomsky and Bernie Sanders paid some dues there.

Quote from: etienne on March 12, 2017, 02:24:01 PMThat map would make good tp.  Really, who composed the map, the U.N?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Economics_and_Peace

But more importantly, it contradicts your claim - so naturally, it's false capitalist bullshit (as opposed to pro-communist goodthink)

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 12, 2017, 05:13:13 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Economics_and_Peace

But more importantly, it contradicts your claim - so naturally, it's false capitalist bullshit (as opposed to pro-communist goodthink)

The US has ~1000 military bases/installations spanning the globe.  Does Russia?  No.  Does China?  No.  The DPRK has ZERO bases outside it's border.  Cuba?  No.  Iran?  No.  Shall I go on?  The world is afraid of the USA imperialism, for good reason, they DO it!  USA, #1 in State sponsored terrorism(imperialist war) throughout the 20th century until now.  #2 is barely on the radar by comparison.

Quote from: etienne on March 12, 2017, 05:30:37 PM
The US has ~1000 military bases/installations spanning the globe.  Does Russia?  No.  Does China?  No.  The DPRK has ZERO bases outside it's border.  Cuba?  No.  Iran?  No.  Shall I go on?  The world is afraid of the USA imperialism, for good reason, they DO it!  USA, #1 in State sponsored terrorism(imperialist war) throughout the 20th century until now.  #2 is barely on the radar by comparison.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/45/75/814575d56f72490eaee12ddb727a967c.jpg)

Quote from: etienne on March 12, 2017, 02:55:33 PM
Thanks.  Well, if you don't view the 1st 4 short vids I posted then you will most likely continue to not understand what so-comm is, like everybody else here not named "etienne", and how it has been and currently is practiced in various countries.  That's why I posted them so I don't have to keep explaining terms and concepts over and over to every single American, and otherwise, that comes along.  Ain't got time for that. I can't make it easier for folks.  If a person isn't interested in learning, they aren't interested, but then their opinions are not based in fact and they remain ignorant on the subject.

For e.g., I have said repeatedly that capitalism and socialism are antithetic which they, in fact, ARE.  They don't mix, oil and water, there is either one or the other. It's about which CLASS controls the means of production.  Socialism is the replacement of capitalism and vice versa.  Tax redistribution within the capitalist system is not socialism.  And I'm not going to repeat that anymore.  That is called "democratic socialism", and if people would watch just one of those vids I kindly posted, I wouldnt have to keep going over it and they would sound more intelligent when they spoke.

Alright, already........................humf...............you mean when I tell people to define what they are talking about, and then they do, I need to pay attention and read the definitions?????  Well, shit.  Do as I say and not as I do--remember????  Alright, one of these fine slow days, I'll watch those videos.    If I can read three Ayn Rand novels, I guess I can watch a few video's. 

Quote from: etienne on March 12, 2017, 02:27:24 PM
Marx wrote of the "primitive communism" of hunter gatherer societies that existed for millenia.

Sure, and that might work among a small group of closely related people. The problem is, Marxism does not scale well to the level of a nation state.

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 12, 2017, 06:19:42 PM
Sure, and that might work among a small group of closely related people. The problem is, Marxism does not scale well to the level of a nation state.

I have yet to see the nation State, as more than a liability, but it certainly works for people who depend on the State for their livelihood.  But then anyone not in food production, is a parasite.

Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2017, 07:30:49 PM
I have yet to see the nation State, as more than a liability, but it certainly works for people who depend on the State for their livelihood.  But then anyone not in food production, is a parasite.

You can bash the idea of government all you like. That doesn't change the fact that its proven to be workable, unlike Marxism.

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 12, 2017, 08:13:04 PM
You can bash the idea of government all you like. That doesn't change the fact that its proven to be workable, unlike Marxism.

I didn't realize that Marxist were anarchists ;-(

And I have worked with the US government for 30 years, half my life.  Great for me, bad for you ... well bad if you think you should have government benefits without paying any taxes to pay for it.  Given employment, I am proud to pay taxes, unlike Mr Trump.

Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2017, 07:30:49 PMI have yet to see the nation State, as more than a liability, but it certainly works for people who depend on the State for their livelihood.  But then anyone not in food production, is a parasite.

Historically, only States could support many people who do not produce food.  Agricultural communities, which later became States, could support a wider range of professions than nomads.  That's a big part of the reason these communities were able to become the norm rather than the exception.

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 12, 2017, 06:19:42 PM
Sure, and that might work among a small group of closely related people. The problem is, Marxism does not scale well to the level of a nation state.

You're not very good at this, are you?  Just can't stay away from the intrigue of socialism, can you?  Admit it. 

Uh, he kind of did.  He wrote a couple of books, maybe you've heard:  "Das Kapital" and the "Communist Manifesto".  He also was a prolific journalist on the subject in "live time events" back then.  There was this thing called the "First International".  And isn't it odd how the USSR, based off of Marxist Leninism, to "scale", went from a backwater feudalistic country owned by Csars, to beat the big ol' bad ol' USA, who had been at the industrial game for a few hundred years, putting a man in space.  And the USSR did it "w/o intellectuals" as the other guy claims:

QuoteThe competition began on August 2, 1955, when the Soviet Union responded to the US announcement four days earlier of intent to launch artificial satellites for the International Geophysical Year, by declaring they would also launch a satellite "in the near future". The Soviet Union beat the US to this, with the October 4, 1957 orbiting of Sputnik 1, and later beat the US to the first human in space, Yuri Gagarin, on April 12, 1961.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Race

And somehow, again "w/o intellectual" engineers, Marxist socialists were/are able to build modern cities:

(https://www.whitecase.com/sites/whitecase/files/images/locations/Moscow_Russia_Tablet_1920x960.jpg)

Wasn't the Marxist USSR considered the 2nd Super Power in just 30 years time?  Yeah, they were.  Problem is:  socialism works, that's why the capitalists keep fighting it.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 12, 2017, 11:51:36 PM
Historically, only States could support many people who do not produce food.  Agricultural communities, which later became States, could support a wider range of professions than nomads.  That's a big part of the reason these communities were able to become the norm rather than the exception.

Why is it a virtue to have more people instead of fewer?  No, agriculture requires villages, it doesn't require cities nor states.  States came about because of psychopathic village elders (see story of why the gods created Enkidu).

Etienne .. Earth First wannabes defaced one of the Trump golf courses, digging a message in the turf ... "NO MORE TIGERS. NO MORE WOODS" ... today's Sans Cullottes are so scary, I am just triggered!

Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2017, 11:10:22 PM
I didn't realize that Marxist were anarchists ;-(

And I have worked with the US government for 30 years, half my life.  Great for me, bad for you ... well bad if you think you should have government benefits without paying any taxes to pay for it.  Given employment, I am proud to pay taxes, unlike Mr Trump.

Xenu can sign over his Social Security checks over to me anytime. :biggrin:  US Social Security, brought to you by US Communists.

Quote from: Baruch on March 13, 2017, 06:37:02 AM
Why is it a virtue to have more people instead of fewer?  No, agriculture requires villages, it doesn't require cities nor states.  States came about because of psychopathic village elders (see story of why the gods created Enkidu).

Etienne .. Earth First wannabes defaced one of the Trump golf courses, digging a message in the turf ... "NO MORE TIGERS. NO MORE WOODS" ... today's Sans Cullottes are so scary, I am just triggered!

People like "nice things", modern things.  No, we're not going back to hunter gatherer, unless the psycho imperialists nuke the thing--for profit, of course.  And good for them, any destruction of Drumpf property is a 'yooge' good thing.  I am disappointed in the anarchist assassins, though, about now.  Probably will have to take one for the Team(humanity) and do it myself.

Quote from: Baruch on March 12, 2017, 07:30:49 PM
I have yet to see the nation State, as more than a liability, but it certainly works for people who depend on the State for their livelihood.  But then anyone not in food production, is a parasite.

Well, you kind of have to have people that know how to, you know, build things.  I'm not living in no dadgum teepee(no wifi).  There are legions and legions of parasites, however, they wear suits and have little colorful leashes around their necks.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 06:47:12 AM
People like "nice things", modern things.  No, we're not going back to hunter gatherer, unless the psycho imperialists nuke the thing--for profit, of course.  And good for them, any destruction of Drumpf property is a 'yooge' good thing.  I am disappointed in the anarchist assassins, though, about now.  Probably will have to take one for the Team(humanity) and do it myself.

Why do assassins today wait for a R politician, not a D politician?  See Ford, Reagan.  And why do they miss?

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 06:52:44 AM
Well, you kind of have to have people that know how to, you know, build things.  I'm not living in no dadgum teepee(no wifi).  There are legions and legions of parasites, however, they wear suits and have little colorful leashes around their necks.

Marx was happy for the State provided British Library and British Museum.  Parasite.

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 12, 2017, 06:09:25 PM
Alright, already........................humf...............you mean when I tell people to define what they are talking about, and then they do, I need to pay attention and read the definitions?????  Well, shit.  Do as I say and not as I do--remember????  Alright, one of these fine slow days, I'll watch those videos.    If I can read three Ayn Rand novels, I guess I can watch a few video's.

Ah, a Libertarian.  I have chunks of Libertarians in my stool.  In fact, I just kicked some Libertarian ass up yonder thar'.  Helps when you know what you are talking about, yeah, otherwise you are like a religionist debating, say, Christopher Hitchens, and none of us wants that...   :dance:

Quote from: Baruch on March 13, 2017, 06:58:27 AM
Marx was happy for the State provided British Library and British Museum.  Parasite.

Well, I think, if Marx hadn't grown up petit bourgeois, he may have liked to have had a practical skill, trade.  Well, writing is a skill, skilled labor, especially when you are writing the most profound works on the planet.  He wanted to teach in the University too, which is a skill.  Engels was the rich kid with all of daddy's industrial money--Marx was supported with that for a time.  Capitalist societies tend not to give most artists, musicians, writers much opportunity to make $, sooo...a guy's gotta eat. Mozart died @ 36 or so, a pauper with TB, only had a decent apt and $ for maybe 5 years of his adult life, as he was famous by that time.   But he ended up having to pawn everything off, you know, so he could pay some POS, mediocre mammal landlord.  How many billions have the parasite capitalists made and will continue to make off of Dead Mozart?  Which reminds me, Miles Davis was a gigolo for a short period, pay them bills.

The whole idea of Marx was to have an "intellectual(all around educated) proletariat".  Do the material work 4-6 hours a day, then chill...play guitar, paint pictures, go fishing, read good books, get to know your wife and kids and such.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 07:11:10 AM
Well, I think, if Marx hadn't grown up in his social class, he may have liked to have had a practical skill, trade.  Well, writing is a skill, skilled labor, especially when you are writing the most profound works on the planet.  He wanted to teach in the University too, which is a skill.  Engels was the rich kid with all of daddy's industrial money--Marx was supported with that for a time.  Capitalist societies tend not to give most artists, musicians, writers much opportunity to make $, sooo...a guy's gotta eat.  Which reminds me, Miles Davis was a gigolo for a short period, pay them bills.

The whole idea of Marx was to have an "intellectual(all around educated) proletariat".  Do the material work 4-6 hours a day, then chill...play guitar, paint pictures, go fishing, read good books, get to know your wife and kids and such.

Yes, and Jefferson the slaver, wanted educated citizens, because democracy doesn't work unless we are all as smart as Socrates.  Yes, Marx's background, dad and grand-dad were rabbis .. like I said, parasites ;-)  The only true Maoist work is on a collective farm.  End all cities now!  See Cross Of Gold Speech by William Jennings Bryan.  It is coming to a post-apocalypse near you.

Quote from: Baruch on March 13, 2017, 07:15:01 AM
Yes, and Jefferson the slaver, wanted educated citizens, because democracy doesn't work unless we are all as smart as Socrates.  Yes, Marx's background, dad and grand-dad were rabbis .. like I said, parasites ;-)  The only true Maoist work is on a collective farm.  End all cities now!  See Cross Of Gold Speech by William Jennings Bryan.  It is coming to a post-apocalypse near you.

Of course all the clergy are parasites, only second in "bad" to the capitalist owning class.  I recently wrote a poem about the bad ol' clergy, I will post here soon.  But that's why they often get killed in socialist revolutions:  they just won't quit bein' bad and join the good guys. Sellin' "Gawd" has it's perks...for cross dressers.

Maoism was not exclusive to farming, obviously, and some some of those Maoist communes were way the fuck ahead of their time, almost "too groovy".

And if I'm not mistaken, you are sounding like a borderline "anarcho primitivist".  Have you read, "The Unabomber's Manifesto"?  Really good read. 

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=11418.0

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 07:00:43 AM
Ah, a Libertarian.  I have chunks of Libertarians in my stool.  In fact, I just kicked some Libertarian ass up yonder thar'.  Helps when you know what you are talking about, yeah, otherwise you are like a religionist debating, say, Christopher Hitchens, and none of us wants that...   :dance:

Libertarian--yeah, I guess in part.  But then, not in other parts.  I don't know of a label that fits exactly.  Not republican (not the party), or democratic (not the party) or commie, or socialist, or capitalist, or............supply the philosophy or ism--not exactly.  So, what label do I want to use?  I don't know.  Generalist???  (But then, I only like some generals--hate Lee and love Grant).  Really don't care.  So, label me as you wish.  That in no way defines who or what I am.  And feel free to have for dinner anything or anyone you like so your stool will come out as you desire.  Don't care.  Up to you. 

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 13, 2017, 09:05:36 AM
Libertarian--yeah, I guess in part.  But then, not in other parts.  I don't know of a label that fits exactly.  Not republican (not the party), or democratic (not the party) or commie, or socialist, or capitalist, or............supply the philosophy or ism--not exactly.  So, what label do I want to use?  I don't know.  Generalist???  (But then, I only like some generals--hate Lee and love Grant).  Really don't care.  So, label me as you wish.  That in no way defines who or what I am.  And feel free to have for dinner anything or anyone you like so your stool will come out as you desire.  Don't care.  Up to you.

There are plenty of "generals" you can hook up with:  General Motors, General Electric, General Mills, General Auto Insurance, Dollar General, etc.  Funny, they are all capitalists, imagine that.  Well, that's the thing, there are only 2 sides to pick from in this lil ol' material world:  Capitalism or Socialism/Communism.  Das it.

As to me eating a Libertarian for lunch, see Reply #84 on this thread.  I feel strongly that as a minimum requirement, Libertarians should at least know what they stand for.

The "dumb commie" DPRK, with a "brutal, crazyman, thug, dictator"(democratically elected) and "no intellectuals" and "illiterate, starving people everywhere", somehow has figured out how to defend themselves against US imperialist threats, which they have, as a sovereign nation, every right to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtKgofH_Gvg

(US has ~115 bases in Japan, ~83 bases in S Korea, and many in northern Australia.  The DPRK has zero bases outside it's borders.

What kind of person engages in revolutionary activity? Is there a specific type?

QuoteThere are different types, but they have certain characteristics in common. That’s why I quote theologian Reinhold Niebuhr when he talks about “sublime madness.”

I think that sublime madness â€" James Baldwin writes it’s not so much that revolutionaries have a vision, it’s that they are possessed by it. I think that’s right. They are often difficult, eccentric personalities by nature, because they are stepping out front to confront a system of power in a way that is almost a kind of a form of suicide. But in moments of extremity, these rebels are absolutely key; and that you can’t pull off seismic change without them.

And then there are all the everyday peasants...

Superb vid by Jason Unruhe(The Maoist Rebel) in the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvyrhEq1MnE
(Quote from Chris Hedges,  http://www.salon.com/2015/06/04/we_are_in_a_revolutionary_moment_chris_hedges_explains_why_an_uprising_is_coming_%E2%80%94_and_soon/)

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:39:58 AMThe "dumb commie" DPRK, with a "brutal, crazyman, thug, dictator"(democratically elected) and "no intellectuals" and "illiterate, starving people everywhere", somehow has figured out how to defend themselves against US imperialist threats, which they have, as a sovereign nation, every right to do

LOL.  Mass squalor and producing antiquated, albeit dangerous, military hardware are not mutually exclusive.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeJBQFcW8AAYVgA.jpg)

Care to take a couple guesses why this is the case?  And no, it's not because the DPRK is trying to cut its electric bill.

And North Korea's vaunted nukes, though dangerous, are nothing compared to the arsenals of literally any other nuclear power.

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYBoPRJUEAEi3g0.jpg)

And finally, North Koreans have yet to successfully figure out "how to defend themselves against US imperialist threats".  By claiming that they did, you just hit a level of dumb and delusional that rarely gets expressed here.  Congrats.

North Korea would easily be wiped off the face of the Earth in any sort of military conflict.  Part of the reason why this hasn't happened already is because South Korea would undoubtedly suffer civilian losses from conventional artillery, not to mention WMD attacks.  Another part of the reason is that such an aggressive move would undoubtedly start a diplomatic row with China, though Chinese-DPRK relations have worsened lately.  Also, unlike other nations, the paucity of North Korea ironically protects it - an invader simply has nothing to gain.  So instead of risking conflict, the world's great powers let North Korea languish as a pariah state, isolated and starving, in the hopes that it eventually gives up its pathetic sabre-rattling and gets its act together so that it can rejoin the world community.  So far, no such luck.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 13, 2017, 12:37:25 PM
LOL.  Mass squalor and producing antiquated, albeit dangerous, military hardware are not mutually exclusive.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeJBQFcW8AAYVgA.jpg)

Care to take a couple guesses why this is the case?  And no, it's not because the DPRK is trying to cut its electric bill.

And North Korea's vaunted nukes, though dangerous, are nothing compared to the arsenals of literally any other nuclear power.

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYBoPRJUEAEi3g0.jpg)

And finally, North Koreans have yet to successfully figure out "how to defend themselves against US imperialist threats".  By claiming that they did, you just hit a level of dumb and delusional that rarely gets expressed here.  Congrats.

North Korea would easily be wiped off the face of the Earth in any sort of military conflict.  Part of the reason why this hasn't happened already is because South Korea would undoubtedly suffer civilian losses from conventional artillery, not to mention WMD attacks.  Another part of the reason is that such an aggressive move would undoubtedly start a diplomatic row with China, though Chinese-DPRK relations have worsened lately.  Also, unlike other nations, the paucity of North Korea ironically protects it - an invader simply has nothing to gain.  So instead of risking conflict, the world's great powers let North Korea languish as a pariah state, isolated and starving, in the hopes that it eventually gives up its pathetic sabre-rattling and gets its act together so that it can rejoin the world community.  So far, no such luck.

Haha, now you are an expert on the DPRK, but you just made my point.  The DPRK poses no threat to anyone, except maybe Micronesia, assuming they had any intention of attacking someone which they don't.

>mfw implying the soviet union and NK weren't and aren't absolute failures of states, or even communist

(https://media.tenor.co/images/9541febe548f2c9f266c0c5b8a09419d/raw)

QuoteThe DPRK poses no threat to anyone...

Yeah, except the millions of starving citizens, anyone who disagrees with the dictator, and South Korea. Just a few million people, no big deal.

I wondered how long it would take you to go full nutjob, which I wanted to lowkey elude to in my first post. I guess that question has been answered.

Quote from: Hydra009 on March 11, 2017, 11:32:27 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge#Intelligentsia

"In the 1920s and 1930s, 2,000 writers, intellectuals, and artists were imprisoned and 1,500 died in prisons and concentration camps. After sunspot development research was judged un-Marxist, twenty-seven astronomers disappeared between 1936 and 1938. The Meteorological Office was violently purged as early as 1933 for failing to predict weather harmful to the crops. But the toll was especially high among writers. Those who perished during the Great Purge include:"

I cut it off there because the rest of the section is just a long list of intellectuals accused of alleged subversive activities, some of which probably involve cursing the soil or casting a magic spell to make their torturer hurt them against their torturer's will.

Ok, let's assume the numbers you present are correct.  What was the death toll of the genocides of Native Americans, Africans by the British/US?  How many Southerners in the American Civil war?  Ok, we'll, you work on that one.  The deal is, in a so-comm revolution, it goes as I have described and when there are holdover capitalist apologists, and or militant religions who want to regain oppression of the People, those forces usually either leave or if they dont do that, get incarcerated or killed.  So what?  Thats the way the cookie crumbles.  they support a system that has genocided over a billion people since it's inception, so if they support that system within a so-comm society, they DO have problems, just as if Communists tried to take over the USA would and do have problems.  I repeat, it's CLASS WARFARE.  This is not to say so-comm is "anti-intellectual, it's not at all, and their results proof it.

QuoteMao:  Revolutions and revolutionary wars are inevitable in class society, and without them it is impossible to accomplish any leap in social development and to overthrow the reactionary ruling classes and therefore impossible for the people to win political power.

"On Contradiction" (August1937), Selected Works, Vol. I, p. 344.*

Revolutionary war is an antitoxin that eliminates the enemy's poison, but also purges us of our own filth. Every just, revolutionary war is endowed with tremendous power and can transform many things or clear the way for their transformation. The Sino-Japanese war will transform both China and Japan; provided China perseveres in the War of Resistance and in the united front, the old Japan will surely be transformed into a new Japan and the old China into a new China, and people and everything else in both China and Japan will be transformed during and after the war.

"On Protracted War" (May 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 131.*

Every Communist must grasp the truth; "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

"Problems of War and Strategy" (November 6, 1938), Selected Works, Vol. II, p. 224.

Seriously Hydra, why are you even coming to this thread, the side you've chosen is abundantly clear.  I dont see that you have much more to contribute here.  Don't you have a space shuttle to the outer reaches of Nebuli to catch?

Quote from: Shiranu on March 13, 2017, 01:50:05 PM
>mfw implying the soviet union and NK weren't and aren't absolute failures of states, or even communist

Yeah, except the millions of starving citizens, anyone who disagrees with the dictator, and South Korea. Just a few million people, no big deal.

I wondered how long it would take you to go full nutjob, which I wanted to lowkey elude to in my first post. I guess that question has been answered.

Evidence?  No, you dont have any.  Also, you dont have to come to this thread, in fact I recommend you dont.  Thanks.

For the hard-of-thinking here.  Korea was a colony of what country from 1910-1947(end of WWII)?  Japan.  That's why there was this thing called the "Korean War".  Look it up.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 01:31:09 PMHaha, now you are an expert on the DPRK, but you just made my point.  The DPRK poses no threat to anyone, except maybe Micronesia, assuming they had any intention of attacking someone which they don't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 02:02:35 PMOk, let's assume the numbers you present are correct.  What was the death toll of the genocides of Native Americans, Africans by the British/US?  How many Southerners in the American Civil war?  Ok, we'll, you work on that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Obvious tu quoque fallacy is obvious.

QuoteThe deal is, in a so-comm revolution, it goes as I have described and when there are holdover capitalist apologists, and or militant religions who want to regain oppression of the People, those forces usually either leave or if they dont do that, get incarcerated or killed.  So what?  Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Wow.  Defending mass murder.  I guess you really are a tankie.

QuoteSeriously Hydra, why are you even coming to this thread, the side you've chosen is abundantly clear.  I dont see that you have much more to contribute here.  Don't you have a space shuttle to the outer reaches of Nebuli to catch?

Translation:  "I've lost the argument yet again.  You're making me look bad.  Please leave my safe space"

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 02:05:06 PM
Evidence?  No, you dont have any. 

I wouldn't normally do this, but since you expect the same from us...

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/north-korea

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/world/2017/03/13/north-korea-further-out-of-reach-on-human-rights--un/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/north-korea/report-korea-democratic-peoples-republic-of/

http://www.ibtimes.com/g00/under-kim-jong-un-north-koreas-children-suffering-severe-malnutrition-need-18m-aid-2280105?i10c.referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

http://www.voanews.com/a/un-report-says-more-north-korean-children-treated-for-malnutrition/2867477.html

http://www.firststepscanada.org/malnutrition-in-north-korea/













Yeah, what a utopia.

QuoteAlso, you dont have to come to this thread, in fact I recommend you dont.  Thanks.

Cute way of saying stop calling you on your bullshit, but I'm a big girl, I do what I want.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 09:05:46 PM
It is false to say that the US, thru political process, could change from capitalistic to socialistic--they are antithetic.  The US political bourgeois politics support the capitalists, that is it's function.

It won't happen over night, but it is possible. If enough congressmen were elected to pass legislation outlawing capitalist practices, then the country can transition into a socialist one without violent overthrow of government. That is what is meant by 'theoretical'.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 09:05:46 PMThe USSR went from a backward, Czarist ruled feudalistic society to an industrialized socialistic country that became the #2 super power in roughly 20-30 years.  Maoist China did the same thing.

The USSR imploded, Maoist China became de facto capitalist -- these are not the concrete examples that I was looking for.

The key to supporting any particular ideology, any particular socioeconomic model, is longevity; the ability to produce a lasting system in which people can lead stable, free lives. None of your examples offer that, yet you want to convince us to transition into a system which has been proven to fail, and you want to do so violently. You are a funny person.

You haven't even touched on socialist Venezuela, or communist North Korea. What, these do not convey your version of communist utopia?

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 09:05:46 PMThere was essentially no unemployment, homelessness or hunger in either country after the inititial transitions.

It is convenient to make such bold claims when the narrative is controlled and the free flow of information is nonexistent. It is equally convenient when you neglect the process, the "inititial (sic) transitions", where Stalin killed twice as many people as the Nazis, and Mao three times as many. Even after the "transition" period was over, the communist countries faced many problems that eventually led to implosion/dissolution of USSR and introduction of capitalist practices to China following 1978 reforms.

Soviet Union never published any statistics; totalitarian regime made claims and that's about it. If you are repeating this claim, then you need to provide some evidence to verify it.

I do not have information about Maoist China statistics that you are claiming, so if you do please provide sources. Common sense, however, postulates that an economic model effectively combating homelessness, hunger, and unemployment is not changed unless it has been rendered ineffective.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 09:05:46 PMIf you favor capitalism because you benefit from the exploitation of the working classes, especially in the 3rd World, it is your prerogative to think that way--since you materially benefit from it and apparently dont give a damn about the working class, which is consistent with capitalists.

Let us not make assumptions here or make this personal, for I too can reciprocate. I do not suppose the machine you are using to denigrate me was manufactured by yourself from raw materials you procured from around the globe, was it. Such a blatant disregard for and benefit from exploitation of 'working class' -- a material benefit you do not seem to mind, it seems. Is it hypocrisy or ignorance? Or do you think that just because you 'believe' violently repressing opposing views in favor of establishing a totalitarian regime that claims to address the grievances of working class is the way to go makes your material benefit of exploitation any less "unjust" than mine?

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 09:05:46 PMEmbargos are real, economic warfare, and people die(just ask Iraq), and the US has blocked nearly all other countries from trading with Cuba, it is fact, it is an undebatable point.  And Cuba's main export in SUGAR.

No one said embargoes are not real or that they are not a form of warfare; you are arguing against a strawman here.

Your statement "the US has blocked nearly all other countries from trading with Cuba, it is fact, it is an undebatable point" is borderline junk, unsubstantiated; foreign nations are not bound by US domestic legislation.

Therefore, using the embargo as an excuse for miserable situation in Cuba is old and tired -- I stand by my statement.

I like to judge societies based on two criteria: how they treat their citizenship, and their contributions to humanity. On both counts Cuba and any other kind of communist utopia fails.

It seems that any kind of advancement comes from capitalist countries, regardless of form of capitalism. China's economy only grew once they started adopting capitalist practices. Even Iran has more innovation than Cuba.

Seems appropriate, to supplement @Shiranu's post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufhKWfPSQOw

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 02:28:32 PM
For the hard-of-thinking here.  Korea was a colony of what country from 1910-1947(end of WWII)?  Japan.  That's why there was this thing called the "Korean War".  Look it up.

Everyone has an excuse for being a dick.  I don't accept anyone's excuses.  Such as the current row between Netherlands and Turkey.  It is primarily the Turks now who are being dicks.  This is a historical pattern with them.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 07:28:44 AM
Of course all the clergy are parasites, only second in "bad" to the capitalist owning class.  I recently wrote a poem about the bad ol' clergy, I will post here soon.  But that's why they often get killed in socialist revolutions:  they just won't quit bein' bad and join the good guys. Sellin' "Gawd" has it's perks...for cross dressers.

Maoism was not exclusive to farming, obviously, and some some of those Maoist communes were way the fuck ahead of their time, almost "too groovy".

And if I'm not mistaken, you are sounding like a borderline "anarcho primitivist".  Have you read, "The Unabomber's Manifesto"?  Really good read. 

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=11418.0

A criminalogenic-statist.  You get me exactly wrong.  I recognize, as modern anthropology, human nature is what it is.

Defending the DPRK...yep, dude's a tankie!

Quote from: Baruch on March 13, 2017, 06:50:20 PM
A criminalogenic-statist.  You get me exactly wrong.  I recognize, as modern anthropology, human nature is what it is.

Human "nature" is malleable, as per context.  You train people to be dog eat dog and thats just what they do, go fig.

Quote from: Sylar on March 13, 2017, 05:18:11 PM
Seems appropriate, to supplement @Shiranu's post:

Lol, yeah, they pay nice little bourgeoisie people alot of $ to make that propaganda.  There's alot of N Koreans "escape" to S Korea only to return later to where they had it better.

Quote from: Sylar on March 13, 2017, 05:05:29 PM

It won't happen over night, but it is possible. If enough congressmen were elected to pass legislation outlawing capitalist practices, then the country can transition into a socialist one without violent overthrow of government. That is what is meant by 'theoretical'. (hypothetical)

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!  What LALALAND do you live in?!   Please I wanna go there!  Power doesn't just "give up", roll over, hand over the keys.  Never happens like that.  Read my sig.  The rest of your reply is pretty much the same bogus repetition of US propaganda, so I wont take the time to reply.  I already did to others anyway.  Your opening salvo proves you dont know much about what you are talking about or about the REAL world.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Population_of_North_Korea%2C_1980-2013.png)Scatter plot of the population of North Korea, from 1980 to 2013.  The blue line represents the annual World Bank estimates, and the red dots represents the national census figures (1993 and 2008).

Geez, if so many millions of North Koreans are starving to death, why does the population keep going up?  They only have 25 million people there total.  Oh wait, there are these things called, FACTS:

DPRK

QuoteGrowth rate   0.84% (1993â€"2008)
Birth rate   14.51 births/1,000 population (2014 est.)
Death rate   9.18 deaths/1,000 population (2014 est.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_North_Korea

USA

QuoteGrowth rate  0.77% (143rd)
Birth rate   13.42 births/1,000 population (147th)
Death rate   8.15/1,000 population (100th)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States

When y'all planning to stab anarchists in the back yet again? Asking for a friend.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:23:21 PM
Lol, yeah, they pay nice little bourgeoisie people alot of $ to make that propaganda.  There's alot of N Koreans "escape" to S Korea only to return later to where they had it better.

"Propaganda".

(https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/styles/open_graph/public/multimedia_images_2017/rtsnlgh_0.jpg?itok=4pYZC1Nm)

(http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/embed-lg/public/2015/02/16/0216northkorea04.jpg)

(https://mtj86.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/nk2.jpg)

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/01/04/world/03TRUMPKOREA-1/03TRUMPKOREA-1-videoSixteenByNine1050.jpg)

(http://www.foxhedgehog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Apr_24-NK.jpg)

You REALLY want to go down the route of accusing other's of propaganda? Are you sure about that?

How about pictures from North Korea... are these all propaganda as well? Did the West hire these people to head to NK and pose for these picture?

(http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/56f92682dd0895976f8b46cc-1190-625/a-photographer-captured-these-dismal-photos-of-life-in-north-korea-on-his-phone.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03593/north-korea-boulev_3593087k.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03593/north-korea-statio_3593114k.jpg)

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/nintchdbpict000288529219.jpg?w=679&strip=all)

https://www.humanrights.gov/dyn/news/features/prison-camps-of-north-korea/ (https://www.humanrights.gov/dyn/news/features/prison-camps-of-north-korea/)

QuoteOn Human Rights Day 2014, the State Department launched a campaign on www.HumanRights.gov (http://www.humanrights.gov) profiling six of the most notorious North Korean political prison camps.  It is estimated that between 80,000 and 120,000 political prisoners and family members are detained in these camps, where starvation, forced labor, executions, torture, rape, forced abortion, and infanticide are commonplace.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/27/world/asia/north-korea-labor-camps-hancocks/ (http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/27/world/asia/north-korea-labor-camps-hancocks/)

QuoteWatching the public execution of his mother and older brother, Shin Dong-Hyuk thought the punishment was just. They had planned to escape the North Korean labor camp they were being held in until Shin overheard them and reported them to the prison guards.

Just 14-years old, Shin says he felt no guilt in condemning them to death. One of the very few North Koreans to be born inside one of the brutal prison camps, he says the concept of family that exists in the outside world did not exist in Camp 14.

"I had never felt that kind of attachment and love that people outside of prison camps feel towards them," he told CNN. "So they were just one of many criminals in a prison camp."

Those, like Shin, who have tried to escape a North Korean political or hard labor camp and have survived to tell the tale, talk of starvation, torture, betrayal and executions. By informing on others, many say inmates could hope for more food or less beatings. Horrific heart-breaking accounts of being quite literally worked to death have emerged over recent years. But the camps continue and Pyongyang still refuses to acknowledge their existence.

South Korea's government is trying to officially document the atrocities for the first time, collecting disturbing firsthand accounts from those who have managed to make it to South Korea, including Shin who got out in 2004. A 381-page report from the National Human Rights Commission of Korea is based on the testimony of 278 defectors has recently been published with names of prison guards who carried out torture or executions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-korea-north-un-excerpts-idUSBREA1G0OF20140217 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-korea-north-un-excerpts-idUSBREA1G0OF20140217)

Quote"Systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations have been and are being committed by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, its institutions and officials. In many instances, the violations of human rights found by the commission constitute crimes against humanity.

"The gravity, scale and nature of these violations reveal a State that does not have any parallel in the contemporary world," the report said.

"A number of long-standing and ongoing patterns of systematic and widespread violations which were documented by the commission, meet the high threshold required for proof of crimes against humanity in international law. The perpetrators enjoy immunity.

"The key to the political system is the vast political and security apparatus that strategically uses surveillance, coercion, fear and punishment to preclude the expression of any dissent."

Tl;dr? You have your head so far up your own ass trying to suck your own dick and patting yourself on the back, you have no concept of what reality is. The shit you are defending is completely and utterly indefensible, and that you have even the slightest thought of, "But maybe it's not AS bad..." because you want it to be true indicates something, somewhere a place between fucking moronic and fucking sickening.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:57:39 PM

Geez, if so many millions of North Koreans are starving to death, why does the population keep going up?  They only have 25 million people there total.  Oh wait, there are these things called, FACTS:

Oh don't you even dare try to play the "facts" card, you revoked that right when you decided any facts that disagree with you are propaganda.

Quoteâ€" Annual GDP per capita is about $1,800, which ranks 197th in the world, according to the CIA World Factbook. GDP is 28 times higher in the United States and 18 times higher in South Korea. â€" About half of North Korea's population of 24 million lives in "extreme poverty," according to the KUNI report.

Wow, so about half of the population, they can either get the bare minimum of food and no luxuries, or the cheapest of luxuries and go hungry for the night.

What a fucking Utopia.


http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/27/report-n-korea-executes-officials-for-enraging-kim-jong-un.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/27/report-n-korea-executes-officials-for-enraging-kim-jong-un.html)

QuoteReport: N. Korea executes officials with anti-aircraft guns for 'enraging' Kim Jong Un

What a great place.

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and move to NK if it is so great?

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 13, 2017, 11:01:08 PM
When y'all planning to stab anarchists in the back yet again? Asking for a friend.

Y'all will have to refresh my memory of said alleged back stabbing of Anarchists.  I think they've dropped the ball bigly in not taking out Drumpf Nazi by now--that's my main contention with them as of late.  Well, they botched the Frick job back in the day, so I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up.

Does 1930s Catalonia jog anything to memory? Or perhaps the Ukrainian Free Territory? Or maybe Kronstadt? Generally though, tankies have a nice little habit of purging us or putting us in gulags when we're no longer useful.

As per Cheeto man, you try getting near him! Taking him out sounds fun but logistically it's a nightmare and it doesn't really accomplish much for the risk involved. Everyone in his line of succession has the same goals, the cheeto in chief is just a good distraction.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 13, 2017, 11:47:00 PM
Does 1930s Catalonia jog anything to memory? Or perhaps the Ukrainian Free Territory? Or maybe Kronstadt? Generally though, tankies have a nice little habit of purging us or putting us in gulags when we're no longer useful.

I can't disagree with ya too much.  Catalonia was a fairly complex dealio and the Commies did screw yo ass.  I like those Catalonian Anarchists, but deal is, anarchists, well. there's never enough of them on the same page to really challenge Power in a unified way with unified goals.  Big probs for them taking over any industries, especially in a global economy.  Bakunin was heavily anti-semetic too, as was Proudhon, but that wasnt unusual in that day.  But, if I'm not mistaken, the Spanish Repubs and the Franco Algerian assisted Fascists took down your anarchist buddy ol' pals, I dont think the Commies did much the fighting, just didnt help out is all.   The USSR was protecting what few trade deals they had with Britain and France at the time--couldnt get mixed up with anarchists causes.  Shit is never easy as it seems on paper.

But dont get me wrong, if its a choice between anarchists and fascists, I'd join the anarchists everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

You'll have to educate us on the other situations, but the reasons are probably about the same as I described.  So-Comms have hard enough time agreeing among themselves(ask Lenin/Stalin/Trotsky), let alone having to deal with a buncha of anarchists going in 50 different directions.

Anarchists never get the numbers, is the bottom line.  If and when they do, they can take Power.  Emma Goldman, for all her bluster and fame, really didnt do jack shit in confronting Power, when it came right down to it.  She and her BF failed miserably at assassinating Frick with that stupid f'ing pee shooter "gun" they scrapped together with their last $ between 'em.  He got hung and then they just deported her.  End of movement.

I like Bonanni and Gramsci a whole lot though.  ;)  Anarchism is essentially disorganized, ununified Communism.

(https://pics.onsizzle.com/who-would-win-or-one-ice-pick-a-million-leon-trotskys-1453033.png)

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:20:06 PM
Human "nature" is malleable, as per context.  You train people to be dog eat dog and thats just what they do, go fig.

Maybe you are a canine, I am not.  Don't bring a pooch, to a cat fight.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 12:02:17 AM
As per Cheeto man, you try getting near him! Taking him out sounds fun but logistically it's a nightmare and it doesn't really accomplish much for the risk involved. Everyone in his line of succession has the same goals, the cheeto in chief is just a good distraction.

So your saying that the world wouldn't have been a different place w/o Hitler, or Mussolini?  You take 'em out one by one, or in their little gangs.  Gotta get some training.  Here are your tools:

(http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Paratus-full-screen1.jpg)
(http://modernfirearms.net/userfiles/images/assault/as01/ak47_1.jpg)

Nice try FBI.

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 12:28:33 AM
Maybe you are a canine, I am not.  Don't bring a pooch, to a cat fight.

You're contradicting yourself all over the place now, B.  !st you said you are a donkey, then a dog or something, now you say you arent a dog.  You've totally lost me.

People's brains are malleable, its a fact.  People go from believers to nonbelievers everyday of the week.  ETC, ETC.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 12:31:56 AM
Nice try FBI.

Such are anarchists.  Stick to Starbucks' windows, k?  Fight your 'revolution' there.  Or maybe you can fight the fascists with your endless book fairs and rad art and punk bands.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:57:39 PM(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Population_of_North_Korea%2C_1980-2013.png)Scatter plot of the population of North Korea, from 1980 to 2013.  The blue line represents the annual World Bank estimates, and the red dots represents the national census figures (1993 and 2008).

Geez, if so many millions of North Koreans are starving to death, why does the population keep going up?

Well look at that.  Suddenly capitalist sources are acceptable.

And for once, you're right about something: North Korea's population has grown.  But you're totally wrong in concluding that they're doing a-okay from viewing that statistic in isolation.  No doubt that oversight is due to deliberate self-deception.

Quote from: WikiDuring the 1990s, North Korea was ravaged by famine, causing the death of between 500,000 and 3 million people. Food shortages are ongoing today, with factors such as bad weather, lack of fertilizer and a drop in international donation meaning that North Koreans do not have enough to eat. A study of North Koreans in 2008 found that three-quarters of respondents had reduced their food intake. Extreme poverty is also a factor in the hunger faced by North Korean people, with 27% of the population living at or below the absolute poverty line of less than US $1 a day.

These food shortages cause a number of malnutrition diseases. For example, a 2009 UNICEF report found that North Korea was “one of 18 countries with the highest prevalence of stunting (moderate and severe) among children under 5 years old”.

QuoteA 2013 study reported that communicable diseases and malnutrition are responsible for 64% of the total deaths in North Korea.

Ironically, both the US and South Korea have historically donated substantial amounts of food aid to help ease the humanitarian crisis there.  But all the food shipments in the world don't matter when it doesn't make it to those in need.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 12:28:24 AM
(https://pics.onsizzle.com/who-would-win-or-one-ice-pick-a-million-leon-trotskys-1453033.png)

You gotta refocus your attention.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UZs-ncZO2Bs/Vj4960s7i1I/AAAAAAAAAUg/zCtg0E7c2Mk/s1600/jarheads.gif)

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 11:37:00 PM
Y'all will have to refresh my memory of said alleged back stabbing of Anarchists.  I think they've dropped the ball bigly in not taking out Drumpf Nazi by now--that's my main contention with them as of late.  Well, they botched the Frick job back in the day, so I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up.

The very first people the Cheka needed to shoot.  A woman anarchist nearly assassinated Lenin.  Not even the Czarists were that dangerous.  Keep your Czarists close but your anarchists closer (same as Hitler putting down the Brownshirts using the SS).  Dictatorship of the proletariat, and even syndicalist-anarchism, don't mix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ2wMyGwYsw

Well this part of China looks might fine .. they may all look alike, but they are all hot.  Political police unit I think.

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 12:41:37 AM
The very first people the Cheka needed to shoot.  A woman anarchist nearly assassinated Lenin.  Not even the Czarists were that dangerous.  Keep your Czarists close but your anarchists closer (same as Hitler putting down the Brownshirts using the SS).  Dictatorship of the proletariat, and even syndicalist-anarchism, don't mix.

"Nearly" is the key word and pretty much defines anarchists:  NOT nearly enough.  Emma Goldman's BF nearly assassinated Frick, but he was such a hack he couldn't kill him at point blank range.  P.S, "dictatorship" of the proletariat is not just one person.  Think about it.  ;)

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 12:43:48 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ2wMyGwYsw

Well this part of China looks might fine .. they may all look alike, but they are all hot.  Political police unit I think.

I told ya the Maoists were way the F ahead of their time.  Da Mao Man @ 1:23.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 12:44:20 AM
"Nearly" is the key word and pretty much defines anarchists:  NOT nearly enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojiXc5OfRb0

Gotta love women in uniform!  I like them all.  They can conquer me anytime ;-)

Mulan is coming for you,you hairy barbarian, to kick your hunny buns.

Chinese stewardesses:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/01/28/10/30A7F49200000578-3420710-image-a-14_1453978269110.jpg)

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 12:48:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojiXc5OfRb0

Gotta love women in uniform!  I like them all.  They can conquer me anytime ;-)

Mulan is coming for you,you hairy barbarian, to kick your hunny buns.

I should of thought of that.

LOL, tough guy anarchist thinks I'm COINTELPRO now...he gone!  LOLOL!

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 01:03:08 AM
LOL, tough guy anarchist thinks I'm COINTELPRO now...he gone!  LOLOL!

Or maybe I'm playing vidya and only occasionally looking at the thread. It's 1:13 AM where I am guy.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 01:14:08 AM
Or maybe I'm playing vidya and only occasionally looking at the thread. It's 1:13 AM where I am guy.

'Bout time to put on your Black Bloc gear and do a late nite "errand" ain't it?  A little hanky panky, Spanky?

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 01:24:30 AM
'Bout time to put on your Black Bloc gear and do a late nite "errand" ain't it?  A little hanky panky, Spanky?

Already masturbated, and the people on Grindr at this hour are either creeps or drunks.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 01:28:52 AM
Already masturbated, and the people on Grindr at this hour are either creeps or drunks.

I'm talkin' 'bout a true anarchist DI-RECT ACTION MISSION!  Fuck shit up!  Some of those bad rad anarchist babes are sassy and hot, I must admit.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 01:36:56 AM
I'm talkin' 'bout a true anarchist DI-RECT ACTION MISSION!  Fuck shit up!  Some of those bad rad anarchist babes are sassy and hot, I must admit.

I'm still waiting on my Soros check!

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 01:39:39 AM
I'm still waiting on my Soros check!

Oh fuck, split it with me, PLEASE!

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 01:43:05 AM
Oh fuck, split it with me, PLEASE!

Nah son, I'm going to outsource my protesting with this money! I'm a professional anarchist dammit!

They are trained and bullied into being identical models of some sad fantasy, and I feel sorry for them.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:30:08 AM
They are trained and bullied into being identical models of some sad fantasy, and I feel sorry for them.

Who?

Still waiting on that NK Utopia evidence...

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:32:22 AM
Who?

The identical-looking and acting women...

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:33:46 AM
The identical-looking and acting women...

Lol, kinda like you in that one thread, not following you here.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:03:20 AM
Nah son, I'm going to outsource my protesting with this money! I'm a professional anarchist dammit!

That's commitment.  Respek.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:37:20 AM
Lol, kinda like you in that one thread, not following you here.

When you see identical-looking fantasies of women, you are seeing a restrictive regime that controls ALL aspects of society.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:30:08 AM
They are trained and bullied into being identical models of some sad fantasy, and I feel sorry for them.

I feel sorry for all of them too....that are in bed with me right now...poor lost souls.  ;)

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 02:45:54 AM
I feel sorry for all of them too....that are in bed with me right now...poor lost souls.  ;)

Speaking of sad jokes, shouldn't an immature male like you be in bed alone at this time of night?  Which is what I originally typed in annoyance.

What I MEAN is that such misogyny as you described would be better kept to yourself.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:44:14 AM
When you see identical-looking fantasies of women, you are seeing a restrictive regime that controls ALL aspects of society.

Ah. I may be gay, but what about the rebel girl?

https://youtu.be/EOuCah2GgfQ

QuoteSpeaking of sad jokes, shouldn't an immature male like you be in bed alone at this time of night?

>When it wasn't directed at you, but you can still relate in the lurking background

Quote from: Shiranu on March 14, 2017, 02:56:13 AM
>When it wasn't directed at you, but you can still relate in the lurking background

I unironically love this song.

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
I unironically love this song.

I unironically agree.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:53:38 AM
Speaking of sad jokes, shouldn't an immature male like you be in bed alone at this time of night?  Which is what I originally typed in annoyance.

What I MEAN is that such misogyny as you described would be better kept to yourself.

I'm sure I put that suggestion box around here someplace...lemme see...I might have to get back to you on that...

But it's become quite apparent, to me at least, that this lil ol' So-Comm Maoey Marx thread is THE COOOL place to be.  It's blowin' up like a unabomb!   :cool:

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 03:05:51 AM
I'm sure I put that suggestion box around here someplace...lemme see...I might have to get back to you on that...

Please do search for the idea that women should not be forced into mannekin roles like in dictatorships for male fantasies.  The effort of thinking about that would probably be worth the results.

Don't be so sure: one time we had a dog fucker get like 20 pages...

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:55:55 AM
Ah. I may be gay, but what about the rebel girl?

https://youtu.be/EOuCah2GgfQ

YeeeHAW!  Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!  Dats some real rebel pickin' Dickens, right thar', son, hot diggidy!

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 03:11:13 AM
Please do search for the idea that women should not be forced into mannekin roles like in dictatorships for male fantasies.  The effort of thinking about that would probably be worth the results.

How do you know they are forced?  Oh wait, I will ask some of them....  They say, "no Gringo, we is not forced..and we think you are real cute, White Boy!"  They also seem to be thoroughly enjoying availing themselves of my "oral dictation!"

Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 03:11:35 AM
Don't be so sure: one time we had a dog fucker get like 20 pages...

C'mon!  It's gonna be hard to beat a dog fucker!  One needs realistic goals...

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 11:37:00 PM
I think they've dropped the ball bigly in not taking out Drumpf Nazi by now--that's my main contention with them as of late.

Donald is such a terrifying fascist dictator that literally nobody fears speaking out against him on every platform possible.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
Donald is such a terrifying fascist dictator that literally nobody fears speaking out against him on every platform possible.

People can talk all they want.  Drumpf could give a crap about their talk when it comes to it.  He's bowling over everything in his path.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
Donald is such a terrifying fascist dictator that literally nobody fears speaking out against him on every platform possible.

It's not so much that as it is the gang around him at all times . I can say fuck him, and that I'll be glad when he's dead, but not much else.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
Donald is such a terrifying fascist dictator that literally nobody fears speaking out against him on every platform possible.

Trump is not a "terrifying fascist dictator".  He is a wannabe authoritarian leader. There IS a difference.

Y'all melodramatic as fuck.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 03:49:13 AM
Y'all melodramatic as fuck.

I'm trying NOT to be melodramatic.  Trump is not Hitler or Stalin.  But he has some tendencies LEANING in that direction that need to be (and will be) controlled by our tri-partrite government system of checks and balances.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 03:49:13 AM
Y'all melodramatic as fuck.

Well, we know about Nazi Bannon.  But here's a homework assignment for you.  Please explain:

(http://a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com/image/upload/w_652/h1wkbbjdfhk6dhnrvls5.jpg)

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 03:55:53 AM
Well, we know about Nazi Bannon.  But here's a homework assignment for you.  Please explain:

(http://a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com/image/upload/w_652/h1wkbbjdfhk6dhnrvls5.jpg)

They're both a 4/10

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 03:54:23 AM
I'm trying NOT to be melodramatic.  Trump is not Hitler or Stalin.  But he has some tendencies LEANING in that direction that need to be (and will be) controlled by our tri-partrite government system of checks and balances.

Haha, blanks checks, bouncy bounce.  I guess you are not paying attention.  Maybe Skeletal Atheist can break it down for you.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 03:58:16 AM
They're both a 4/10

Well, it's good to know your Nazis in the gov't....  (Hint:  you can start with a Google image search)

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 03:59:52 AM
Well, it's good to know your Nazis in the gov't....  (Hint:  you can start with a Google image search)

Dunno' if you heard but the nazi party no longer exists bruh.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 03:59:52 AM
Well, it's good to know your Nazis in the gov't....  (Hint:  you can start with a Google image search)

What, you want me to search "Nazis"?  I sort of know about them.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 04:02:21 AM
Dunno' if you heard but the nazi party no longer exists bruh.

G, c'mon buddy, you're smarter than that.  The shit's even on CNN.  You HAVE, no doubt heard of "Golden Dawn" in Greece, "Svoboda Party" in the Ukraine, Steve Bannon, "Alt-RightNazi)", Breitbart, "Stormfront", Dave Emory "spitfirelist", "Ratline", "Operation Paper Clip", "Manhattan Project Oppenheimer", "Hindu RSS", "Sieman's Corp", "Argentine, Uruguayan, Chilean, Nazis", "Liberty Front", "Milo Yiannopoulos", Richard Spencer, Hungarian "Vitezi Rend"...and many more.  The Nazis NEVER WENT AWAY!  They've been "underground", now they are above ground all over the world in a big way.

You gotta "Achtung!", wake up and smell the coffee, brah!  This shit's REAL!

(http://www.laplumeagratter.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Oleg-Tiagnibok-le-chef-de-Svoboda-nh%C3%A9site-pas-%C3%A0-afficher-clairement-ses-r%C3%A9f%C3%A9rences...jpg)
(http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/nazi-flags_1387345i-400x258.jpg)(http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/9/4/8/6/7/i/1/7/7/o/mcoleh.jpg)
(http://yourworldnews.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/UkraineFascists.jpg)
(http://art-for-a-change.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/svoboda_flag.gif?w=240)
(http://www.scharf-links.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Antifa8/faschisten-marsch-ukraine.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Golden_Dawn_members_at_rally_in_Athens_2015.jpg/350px-Golden_Dawn_members_at_rally_in_Athens_2015.jpg)

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 04:20:08 AM
What, you want me to search "Nazis"?  I sort of know about them.

How about the guy in the pic that is a member of Drumpf's Nazi cabinet?

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 04:24:06 AM
G, c'mon buddy, you're smarter than that.  The shit's even on CNN.  You HAVE, no doubt heard of "Golden Dawn" in Greece, "Svoboda Party" in the Ukraine, Steve Bannon, "Alt-RightNazi)", Breitbart, "Stormfront", Dave Emory "spitfirelist", "Ratline", "Operation Paper Clip", "Manhattan Project Oppenheimer", "Hindu RSS", "Sieman's Corp", "Argentine, Uruguayan, Chilean, Nazis", "Liberty Front", "Milo Yiannopoulos", Richard Spencer, Hungarian "Vitezi Rend"...and many more.  The Nazis NEVER WENT AWAY!  They've been "underground", now they are above ground all over the world in a big way.

You gotta "Achtung!", wake up and smell the coffee, brah!  This shit's REAL!

1. Yes, I've heard people call them nazis.

2. CNN? Don't watch fake news; sorry.

3. Milo? lol. Imagine being so dumb as to call a gay jew who fucks black men a nazi. Wouldn't that be embarrassing?

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 04:39:52 AM
1. Yes, I've heard people call them nazis.

2. CNN? Don't watch fake news; sorry.

3. Milo? lol. Imagine being so dumb as to call a gay jew who fucks black men a nazi. Wouldn't that be embarrassing?

Ok, stay stupid, then.  Most Germans didnt give a crap that Hitler was a Nazi, in fact they liked it, because they were blond and getting theirs.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 04:42:21 AM
Ok, stay stupid, then.  Most Germans didnt give a crap that Hitler was a Nazi, in fact they liked it, because they were blond and getting theirs.

(http://i.imgur.com/KSouymd.png)

Quote3. Milo? lol. Imagine being so dumb as to call a gay jew who fucks black men a nazi. Wouldn't that be embarrassing?

Not to a "liberal".
Anyone thinks outside the leftist orthodoxy is a racist nazi. End of discussion.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 04:27:44 AM
How about the guy in the pic that is a member of Drumpf's Nazi cabinet?

Politics will probably eliminate most of the craziest people from Trumps Cabinet soon enough as their general incompetence is revealed through public exposure.

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.forward.com/images/cropped/rocky-suhayda-1470666270.png)(https://denverabc.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/ie-04.png?w=468&h=451)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Genident.JPG/220px-Genident.JPG)(https://antifascismnews.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/13178717_10209685744286719_7585207054632878212_n.jpg?w=474)

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 05:04:56 AM
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.forward.com/images/cropped/rocky-suhayda-1470666270.png)(https://denverabc.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/ie-04.png?w=468&h=451)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Genident.JPG/220px-Genident.JPG)(https://antifascismnews.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/13178717_10209685744286719_7585207054632878212_n.jpg?w=474)

Were those examples, or were those warnings?

Here is a question to etienne.

How many millions of people had to die for the communist ideology?

Etienne is fond of posting videos. Here is one

https://youtu.be/sSDClxjcR-4

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 05:20:50 AM
Here is a question to etienne.

How many millions of people had to die for the communist ideology?

Etienne is fond of posting videos. Here is one

Are any people still Left alive?

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:30:08 AM
They are trained and bullied into being identical models of some sad fantasy, and I feel sorry for them.

The hive is worked by sterile female worker bees ... the ideal society ... if you are a Queen.  Men are temporary expedients ;-(

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:33:46 AM
The identical-looking and acting women...

You likee identical-looking and acting men ... me got those too ;-)

Really .. they are born that way (well a big enough percentage, carefully selected for looks anyway) ... what do you have against Han people?  Socialization (not just Socialism) makes them act the same way.  Diversity is definitely frowned on in E Asian societies.  Non-Asian that sticks up, gets hammered down ;-(

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 05:20:50 AM
Here is a question to etienne.

How many millions of people had to die for the communist ideology?

Etienne is fond of posting videos. Here is one

Ok, mr. pr126, I'm assuming you are some kind of "professor"(the bow tie and squinty face blew your cover).  Since you are a new instigator to thread here, I will watch your, egad, Joe LOL Rogan, vid--since when I think "socialism/communism", my mind immediately goes to "Joe UFC-MC Rogan":

(https://img.maximummedia.ie/sportsjoe_ie/eyJkYXRhIjoie1widXJsXCI6XCJodHRwOlxcXC9cXFwvbWVkaWEtc3BvcnRzam9lLm1heGltdW1tZWRpYS5pZS5zMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tXFxcL3dwLWNvbnRlbnRcXFwvdXBsb2Fkc1xcXC8yMDE1XFxcLzEyXFxcLzEzMDMzNDE3XFxcL3JvZ2FuLWh5cGUtbW9kZS5qcGdcIixcIndpZHRoXCI6NjQ3LFwiaGVpZ2h0XCI6MzQwLFwiZGVmYXVsdFwiOlwiaHR0cHM6XFxcL1xcXC93d3cuc3BvcnRzam9lLmllXFxcL2Fzc2V0c1xcXC9pbWFnZXNcXFwvc3BvcnRzam9lXFxcL25vLWltYWdlLnBuZz92PTNcIn0iLCJoYXNoIjoiZmRiNjM2OWE3YTJjZDNkMzRiMWIwMjg5NzZhMGI1OWZmMzEzMjdkZiJ9/rogan-hype-mode.jpg)
But WAIT, your vid, if I am not mistaken, is the longest single vid on this thread, so therefore, I offer you a deal.  You watch the 1st four vids I posted on so-comm and when you have done that, let me know(pm), and I will watch your Joe Marxist/Maoist Specialist Rogan vid...  ;)   And maybe, if you are nice, I will attempt to answer your common anti-commie query.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 08:32:28 AM
Ok, mr. pr126, I'm assuming you are some kind of "professor"(the bow tie and squinty face blew your cover).  Since you are a new instigator to thread here, I will watch your, egad, Joe LOL Rogan, vid--since when I think "socialism/communism", my mind immediately goes to "Joe UFC-MC Rogan":

(https://img.maximummedia.ie/sportsjoe_ie/eyJkYXRhIjoie1widXJsXCI6XCJodHRwOlxcXC9cXFwvbWVkaWEtc3BvcnRzam9lLm1heGltdW1tZWRpYS5pZS5zMy5hbWF6b25hd3MuY29tXFxcL3dwLWNvbnRlbnRcXFwvdXBsb2Fkc1xcXC8yMDE1XFxcLzEyXFxcLzEzMDMzNDE3XFxcL3JvZ2FuLWh5cGUtbW9kZS5qcGdcIixcIndpZHRoXCI6NjQ3LFwiaGVpZ2h0XCI6MzQwLFwiZGVmYXVsdFwiOlwiaHR0cHM6XFxcL1xcXC93d3cuc3BvcnRzam9lLmllXFxcL2Fzc2V0c1xcXC9pbWFnZXNcXFwvc3BvcnRzam9lXFxcL25vLWltYWdlLnBuZz92PTNcIn0iLCJoYXNoIjoiZmRiNjM2OWE3YTJjZDNkMzRiMWIwMjg5NzZhMGI1OWZmMzEzMjdkZiJ9/rogan-hype-mode.jpg)
But WAIT, your vid, if I am not mistaken, is the longest single vid on this thread, so therefore, I offer you a deal.  You watch the 1st four vids I posted on so-comm and when you have done that, let me know(pm), and I will watch your Joe Marxist/Maoist Specialist Rogan vid...  ;)   And maybe, if you are nice, I will attempt to answer your common anti-commie query.

Can we be free of all of them?

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 06:56:37 AM
You likee identical-looking and acting men ... me got those too ;-)

Really .. they are born that way (well a big enough percentage, carefully selected for looks anyway) ... what do you have against Han people?  Socialization (not just Socialism) makes them act the same way.  Diversity is definitely frowned on in E Asian societies.  Non-Asian that sticks up, gets hammered down ;-(

About all Asian cultures are "STRONG GROUP" "oriented".  That is, they exist in groups, they emphasize the group, this predates any so-comm infuence, but it adapts quite well to said influence.  It's an entirely different mindset than "rugged individual identity" 'Muricans.  I hung out with some Japanese for a time one summer.  They WILL NOT leave you the F alone!!!  Group group group...they don't do anything alone.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 08:57:31 AM
Can we be free of all of them?

Your contributions to this thread started out bad and have gone downhill from there, Mr. Cave, or, Bear.  Pretty soon you will be on the floor and you will have no further to fall.  BTW, don't you have some "Clan" duties to attend to?

(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m3Kxx4hykbYhdP3uFmS_7xA.jpg)

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 09:11:59 AM
Your contributions to this thread started out bad and have gone downhill from there, Mr. Cave, or, Bear.  Pretty soon you will be on the floor and you will have no further to fall.  BTW, don't you have some "Clan" duties to attend to?

(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m3Kxx4hykbYhdP3uFmS_7xA.jpg)

Yup that's where my handle comes from.  When I first got internet service in the early dial up 90s, the 1st 2 phrases I searched were "atheist" and "Ayla" from Clan of The Cave Bear.  Very good sleuthing...  And I don't mind a bit.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 10:07:24 AM
Yup that's where my handle comes from.  When I first got internet service in the early dial up 90s, the 1st 2 phrases I searched were "atheist" and "Ayla" from Clan of The Cave Bear.  Very good sleuthing...  And I don't mind a bit.

I never read it, not into children's books, LOLOL!

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 10:12:37 AM
I never read it, not into children's books, LOLOL!

Its not a childrens' book.  It has (and don't spread this around) sex paragraphs.  A joke among fans, but Auel "tried".

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 05:20:50 AM
Here is a question to etienne.

How many millions of people had to die for the communist ideology?

Etienne is fond of posting videos. Here is one

The Great Joe Rogan vid

Ok, bro'fessor, I watched for a min, pressed pause, and Wiki'd "Jordan Peterson".  There's plenty I can say about him, but certain names came up in association with him--bad names.  Names like, "Stefan Molyneux", and "Alex Jones", and "Gavin McInnes", and "Fox Fascist Propaganda", and "Sam Harris", who we all know is a moderate conservative at best and doesn't know jack squat about So-Comm.

So this is what you want to present to me?  A buncha Libertarian fascists offering their "fair and balanced" view re Marxism, So-Comm, etc.  I wipe my ass with Libertarians, I already did so on this very thread.  So, what I am saying is these guys are all on the take, they are well paid shills that have the agenda of their "handlers"--fascist "handlers".  Molyneux and Jones being the worst offenders.  Really, Alex Jones?  FYI, "globalist bankers" is code for "The Jews", as in "globalist Jewish bankers" responsible for all the angry blue collar white man's woes in the world.  Guess where that idea came from?  I give you 2 guesses.  Ok, US's very own Henry The Car Guy Ford, as in his book, "The International Jew", which was YOOGELY influential on one Adolph Hitler--who ate that shit up for dinner and pooped it out to this guy name "Joseph Goebbels", who was also not a nice man.

So, in short, BIGLY credibility probs right out of the gate with your rep JP there.  And Joe Rogan, are you serious?!  But, true to my word, I will watch the vid as per our "deal".

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 10:34:39 AM
Ok, bro'fessor, I watched for a min, pressed pause, and Wiki'd "Jordan Peterson".  There's plenty I can say about him, but certain names came up in association with him--bad names.  Names like, "Stefan Molyneux", and "Alex Jones", and "Gavin McInnes", and "Fox Fascist Propaganda", and "Sam Harris", who we all know is a moderate conservative at best and doesn't know jack squat about So-Comm.

So this is what you want to present to me?  A buncha Libertarian fascists offering their "fair and balanced" view re Marxism, So-Comm, etc.  I wipe my ass with Libertarians, I already did so on this very thread.  So, what I am saying is these guys are all on the take, they are well paid shills that have the agenda of their "handlers"--fascist "handlers".  Molyneux and Jones being the worst offenders.  Really, Alex Jones?  FYI, "globalist bankers" is code for "The Jews", as in "globalist Jewish bankers" responsible for all the angry blue collar white man's woes in the world.  Guess where that idea came from?  I give you 2 guesses.  Ok, US's very own Henry The Car Guy Ford, as in his book, "The International Jew", which was YOOGELY influential on one Adolph Hitler--who ate that shit up for dinner and pooped it out to this guy name "Joseph Goebbels", who was also not a nice man.

So, in short, BIGLY credibility probs right out of the gate with your rep JP there.  And Joe Rogan, are you serious?!  But, true to my word, I will watch the vid as per our "deal".

Now wait a minute, I like Sam Harris the atheist.  Or are you talking about a different Sam Harris?

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 10:40:43 AM
Now wait a minute, I like Sam Harris the atheist.  Or are you talking about a different Sam Harris?

Sam Harris is awesome and quite entertaining on religion/atheism.  The same Sam Harris is a complete idiot re politics/socioeconomics.  Amazing how the brain can compartmentalize.  Well, he's bourgeoisie. ;)

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 10:18:36 AM
Its not a childrens' book.  It has (and don't spread this around) sex paragraphs.  A joke among fans, but Auel "tried".

Oh, everybody likes sex, that shit's biological.  I dunno, when I get done with collected works of Dostoevsky--AMAZING WRITER!--well, I doubt "Cave Beer Clanz" makes the roster in this lifetime, sorry to say--sex or no sex.  Richard Wright is a MUST read guy for the uninitiated, everything, especially, "Native Son" and "The Outsider"--DEEP stuff.  He was a serious Commie for a piece after he escaped from the Jim Crow South to Lefty Chicago.  Many Blacks were at that time, since Whitey Cap Man had always treated Him so "fairly".  Richard Wright, top 5 all time American authors list, IMO.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 11:19:55 AM
Sam Harris is awesome and quite entertaining on religion/atheism.  The same Sam Harris is a complete idiot re politics/socioeconomics.  Amazing how the brain can compartmentalize.  Well, he's bourgeoisie. ;)

An atheist can be a idiot on other subjects?  Are you sure?  Do you have proof?  No wait, you might and I don't want to read a bunch of nonsense.  How about Richard Dawkins or Michel Shermer?

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 11:37:03 AM
An atheist can be a idiot on other subjects?  Are you sure?  Do you have proof?  No wait, you might and I don't want to read a bunch of nonsense.  How about Richard Dawkins or Michel Shermer?

Yeah, it's common, in fact, just read the threads on this site.  Dawkins and Sherman are both bourgeoisie capitalists that have ZERO interest in revolutionary Marxist/Leninist/Maoist science--historical materialism  They have cushy CuSHY lives, why fuck that up by becoming a rev socialist?  Socialism isnt even on their radar and they tend to assume, like Sam, that molecular/genetic science will "someday" solve the socioeconomic "mystery".  Thats the bigly problem with over specialization, which Marx also wrote about over 150 years ago.

Communism? No thanks.

I was there  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956)

Managed to escape to the west just after the failed revolution.

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 11:50:46 AM
Communism? No thanks.

I was there  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956)

Managed to escape to the west just after the failed revolution.

I'm not real big on practiced communism either...  Theory fails when there is 1 beet and 2 hungry people.

Chairman Meow pawses for a short non-commercial message to The People:

QuoteI sez dat Socialisms/Communisms is da most puuurfect antidote for all that ails Mankind--and kittayz too.  Carry on Comrades...

(http://longlivethekitty.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/poster_believe_live_chairman_meow3-305x500.jpg)

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 11:50:46 AM
Communism? No thanks.

I was there  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956)

Managed to escape to the west just after the failed revolution.

Why did you allow it to fail?

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 11:59:13 AM
Chairman Meow pawses for a short non-commercial message to The People:

(http://longlivethekitty.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/poster_believe_live_chairman_meow3-305x500.jpg)

I hesitate to ask, but I know a Chairman Meow.  Have you cat-blogged?

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 12:03:53 PM
I hesitate to ask, but I know a Chairman Meow.  Have you cat-blogged?

Have never pawsed to do that, nope.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 12:11:10 PM
Have never pawsed to do that, nope.

Good, such a randomly connected meeting would by very odd.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 12:00:05 PM
Why did you allow it to fail?

The Russians had bigger guns.

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 12:15:23 PM
The Russians had bigger guns.

Wait, are you comparing Putin's hands to Trump's?

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 12:15:23 PM
The Russians had bigger guns.

Bigger guns usually wins, yeah.

40 Helpful Tips For Anti-Communists

Jason Unruhe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGZ0A5t7Yk

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:23:21 PM
Lol, yeah, they pay nice little bourgeoisie people alot of $ to make that propaganda.  There's alot of N Koreans "escape" to S Korea only to return later to where they had it better.

To say @Shiranu put it succinctly would be an understatement: "You have your head so far up your own ass trying to suck your own dick and patting yourself on the back, you have no concept of what reality is."

In keeping with the true Nazi style Drumpf deportation protocol, I would like to enthusiastically present THE FIRST etienne's "Iggy Island" deportee list!  Let's see how fast and bigly it grows, shall we?  Of course, deportation is open to appeal, based on quality of contributed content alone:

Updated 3/16/17:
(http://oi67.tinypic.com/svpf1j.jpg)

If you should, surprisingly, find your name located on THE LIST, please note that that is most likely why I am not replying to you.  This is meant to save you the little time, thought, and energy you generally apply to your posts--as judged by our "Panel".

Thanks, MANAGEMENT.

Quote from: etienne on March 13, 2017, 09:33:31 PM
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND?!  What LALALAND do you live in?!   Please I wanna go there!  Power doesn't just "give up", roll over, hand over the keys.  Never happens like that.  Read my sig.  The rest of your reply is pretty much the same bogus repetition of US propaganda, so I wont take the time to reply.  I already did to others anyway.  Your opening salvo proves you dont know much about what you are talking about or about the REAL world.

It seems you do not understand the meaning of the word 'theoretical'.

Other than that, nice cop out.

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/0df2f78ce47aea17452c0dffaa8caefa/tumblr_omt9mi3plw1scro3go1_1280.jpg)

wow I didn't know today was a holiday! why didn't anyone tell me?

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 05:10:35 PM(https://s30.postimg.org/5r5uj44qp/image.png)

If you should, surprisingly, find your name located on THE LIST, please note that that is most likely why I am not replying to you.  This is meant to save you the little time, thought, and energy you generally apply to your posts--as judged by our "Panel"

Sweet.  Proof that you're too far too stupid to construct a good argument (it helps to not pick untenable positions) and too insecure to allow yourself to even see criticism of your positions.

Thus, you have ignore everyone who points out your bullshit, which is shaping up to be a long, long list.  I can't wait till that list grows to the point that you're effectively isolated from the forum entirely, much like your utopian North Korea.

RIP Karl Marx, most influential writer in human history.

Wow, this guy is petty. Kinda embarrassing.

Damn it, this is why I didn't want to post in this thread. I had nothing nice to say because he stuck me as a doucher since post one :(.

Quote from: Shiranu on March 14, 2017, 05:36:49 PMWow, this guy is petty. Kinda embarrassing.

Damn it, this is why I didn't want to post in this thread. I had nothing nice to say because he stuck me as a doucher since post one :(.

I get so tired of the ol' left vs right debates (and also the accusation that liberals don't criticize far left positions enough) that I thought I'd give what he had to say a fair discussion.  See where we agree, see where we disagree.

It wasn't till later that I realized that he's too delusional to actually have that sort of discussion.  He keeps pretending (very unconvincingly) that Communist toilets don't stink.  It's kinda sad, actually.

And trust me, I learned all about the douchy side from the space exploration "debate".  He thinks he actually won that one.  It's just like that old chestnut about the pigeon and the chessboard.

Quote from: pr126 on March 14, 2017, 12:15:23 PM
The Russians had bigger guns.

Ok, mr. pr126, as to our "deal", forget it, I know you won't honor it anyway.  I did, however watch the JP vid...sort of.  That is, I got to about the 7:00 mark and shut 'er down.  Was pretty much 100% anti-commie disinformation to that point and I didnt see a point in continuing.  There are whole legions of these types of folk out there, on the payroll:  shilling for The Man can be a very lucrative gig.  And that is exactly what JP is, a shill.

Funny thing, he's in Toronto and Stefan Molyneux lives in Toronto.  The latter is a hard core, basically fascist level Libertarian, whereas JP is Libertarian "lite", from what I gather and judging from his primary demographic.  Both have a keen interest in Western psychology, JP being a "pro" and Moly being married to one.  Both heavily use subjective, phenomenalist, Jungian/Freudian individual psychoanalytic theory in their analysis of human behavior in political socioeconomics and both consistently attack, systematically any and every Left wing, so-comm figure in history, whether that be MLK, Malcolm X, Marx, Guevara, Castro, Mao,The Black Panthers, Frederick Douglass, Lenin, Stalin, etc.  That is an agenda, bought and paid for by "handlers".  Both are connected to McGill College.  And JP "invented" this thing he calls "Self Authoring" which has shades of L Ron Hubbard's Dianetics in it.  I suppose this is all purely coincidental, JP and MOLY.

Anyway, for e.g., each might describe, say, Che' Guevara as being a "psychopathic murderer", caused by childhood issues, with dad, or mom, or having been spanked too much, or narcissistic, grandiose, etc etc.  But that is pretty much disinformation and not at all what Che Guevara was about.  He was a Marxist socialist revolutionary, historical materialist.  Whole different animal.

Marx specifically rejected subjective, phenomenalistic, psychoanalytic analysis of human social behavior in favor of objective, Historical Materialistic theory, which forms the basis of his socialism/communism.  It's a material world, people are material beings that mainly have material relationships and the nature of those material relationships determines human history.

Anyway, JPs associations as I mentioned previously are bottom of the barrel, anti-commie shills, Alex Jones being King on that list.  In short, JP, IMO, lacks all objective credibility and is bought and paid for.

As to your question re "numbers of deaths", I refer you to the "40 Helpful Tips" vid posted on this thread and a Google research on the subject yourself.  There's plenty of information and disinformation(mostly the latter) out there.  I know you are just trying to bait me, though.  You dont give a crap either way.  You are just anti-commie and came onto this thread to get your troll on.

Quote from: etienne on March 10, 2017, 12:29:57 PM
Ok, let me back up and say that I don't know if Liu's work is "propaganda" in the distortion sense, but we can agree on "propaganda" in the relaying of information sense.  If Liu is a revolutionary so-comm as say, Mao, then I may be interested in reading him.  But I think he is as I described, a liberal capitalist, or "dem-soc" capitalist, of which position I am well familiar and dont agree with and therefore dont see a reason to take time to read him when I have plenty of other things to read that are more pertinent to my interests.  Thats why I suggested you give some synopsis of his critique of today's China, so I/others can have an more elaborate idea about Liu's position.

Flanders is in Belgium, correct?  If I am not mistaken, they do "socialist democracy" or "democratic socialism" like other Western Euro countries which is essentially capitalism at it's core:  the bourgeoisie owns the major means of production, the workers do not.  Correct me if I am wrong there.  I will repeat, I am not interested in dem-soc or soc-dem, I am interested in revolutionary, proletarian socialism, which is doable now or anytime:  it is the overthrow of the bourgeois class by the working class, the latter of whom then control the means of production.  I dont think that us what Liu or Belgium are about.  And I'm not quite sure where you stand, my guess is you are a dem-socialist, which is capitalist "plus extras", thru redistributive taxation.

Watch the critique of Bernie Sanders vids above.

Yes, Flanders is in Belgium. Hi-diddly-ho. :)

So I watched your critique videos on Bernie Sanders. Finally got around to it.
As they weren't regarding a politician I'm myself very familiar with, I don't think I fully got everything out of it. But the critique is for a large part, I believe, applicable to our kind of socialism. Which I myself previously explicitly named socialism of the Western European meaning of the word. Small differences there may be, as we are a corporist Welfare state, rather than a liberal Welfare state, I'm thinking it still kind of applies.
I don't know what you want me to do with it, however. They were fairly interesting videos, and the guy has a decent way of explaining his view. But it didn't bring anything particularly new to the table for me. Nor did it do anything, for me at least, to sway me to communism.
Mind you that up to this point, I've not been interested in discussing communism. All of this stems from me sharing a tidbit with @Baruch and you replying to that. I'm still not really all that interested in talking politics and economics. Though if you have questions, I'll try to answer them.   

I could translate a chapter of Liu's book. If you'd like. (It's a collection of texts.) But only if you promise to read it. Again. If you don't want to read it, that's fine. (It's not the core of my views, it's just a book I'm reading.) No one has time to go through all sources that exist. Heck, it took me a few days before I had the time and interest to have a gander at 15 minutes of film which you provided. But I don't want to waste my time typing it. (Which will take a while.)
Again, you don't have to read it. I'm just saying; don't dismiss other points of view offhand because they don't align with your preconceived notions. Such as you seem to claim proudly to do. With both Liu and other members on this forum, boasting about your, frankly, rather childish deportee list. That way you end up with cencorship, a blockade on conversation and discussion and to isolation of the free market of ideas. Of course, segregation and the impossibility to having open discussion is a key component to revolution.

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on March 14, 2017, 06:35:38 PM
Yes, Flanders is in Belgium. Hi-diddly-ho. :)

So I watched your critique videos on Bernie Sanders. Finally got around to it.
As they weren't regarding a politician I'm myself very familiar with, I don't think I fully got everything out of it. But the critique is for a large part, I believe, applicable to our kind of socialism. Which I myself previously explicitly named socialism of the Western European meaning of the word. Small differences there may be, as we are a corporist Welfare state, rather than a liberal Welfare state, I'm thinking it still kind of applies.
I don't know what you want me to do with it, however. They were fairly interesting videos, and the guy has a decent way of explaining his view. But it didn't bring anything particularly new to the table for me. Nor did it do anything, for me at least, to sway me to communism.
Mind you that up to this point, I've not been interested in discussing communism. All of this stems from me sharing a tidbit with @Baruch and you replying to that. I'm still not really all that interested in talking politics and economics. Though if you have questions, I'll try to answer them.   

I could translate a chapter of Liu's book. If you'd like. (It's a collection of texts.) But only if you promise to read it. Again. If you don't want to read it, that's fine. (It's not the core of my views, it's just a book I'm reading.) No one has time to go through all sources that exist. Heck, it took me a few days before I had the time and interest to have a gander at 15 minutes of film which you provided. But I don't want to waste my time typing it. (Which will take a while.)
Again, you don't have to read it. I'm just saying; don't dismiss other points of view offhand because they don't align with your preconceived notions. Such as you seem to claim proudly to do. With both Liu and other members on this forum, boasting about your, frankly, rather childish deportee list. That way you end up with cencorship, a blockade on conversation and discussion and to isolation of the free market of ideas. Of course, segregation and the impossibility to having open discussion is a key component to revolution.

The childishness is in the content of the posts of the trolling posters, now deportees.  If they actually want to add something mature and substantive to the conversation, I wont ignore them.  But they are attack trolls to this subject, plain and simple.  I dont have time for that.

Anything you want to share re Liu, I will read.

Western Euro "socialism", I will repeat, is "democratic socialism" or, more specifically, "Keynesian" tax redistribution within a capitalist society from the top to the bottom.  It is capitalism, nonetheless, the means of production are still privately owned by an investor class.  This is the antithesis of so-comm, where the working class and/or proletariat State seizes control of the primary means of production. "Democratic Socialism" is capitalism, which is made abundantly clear in the Unruhe vids.

David Pluth's Seven Days in North Korea 2007 Remastered

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxhPEqyJf6I&index=38&list=WL

More on the DPRK:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgHh6f1GYx0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgHh6f1GYx0)

Vaffanculo.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 11:57:43 AM
I'm not real big on practiced communism either...  Theory fails when there is 1 beet and 2 hungry people.

Famously ... Capitalism = two wolves and a sheep, arguing over who gets to eat the sheep.

But ... Communism = two wolves and a sheep, sheep has wolves liquidated, uses their pelts for fur coats to meet  5 year plan quota.

Quote from: Sylar on March 14, 2017, 04:55:31 PM
To say @Shiranu put it succinctly would be an understatement: "You have your head so far up your own ass trying to suck your own dick and patting yourself on the back, you have no concept of what reality is."

I created Etienne, in my mad scientist lab, as a distraction ... and he is way more politically literate than Seri ... and unlike Tay, isn't a damn fascist!

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 08:26:17 PM
Famously ... Capitalism = two wolves and a sheep, arguing over who gets to eat the sheep.

But ... Communism = two wolves and a sheep, sheep has wolves liquidated, uses their pelts for fur coats to meet  5 year plan quota.

Well, you just saved us all alot of time there.  Class dismissed...

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 08:51:52 PM
Well, you just saved us all alot of time there.  Class dismissed...

The problem with any violence ... my paduan ... is that it rebounds on the perpetrators.  So be sure and be ready to catch shit.

Quote from: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 08:53:50 PM
The problem with any violence ... my paduan ... is that it rebounds on the perpetrators.  So be sure and be ready to catch shit.

I think I covered the topic of violence thoroughly at this point.

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 09:05:01 PM
I think I covered the topic of violence thoroughly at this point.

Keep your hazmat suite and doggie pooper scooper handy!

Quote from: etienne on March 14, 2017, 07:03:04 PM
The childishness is in the content of the posts of the trolling posters, now deportees.  If they actually want to add something mature and substantive to the conversation, I wont ignore them.  But they are attack trolls to this subject, plain and simple.  I dont have time for that.

Honestly you're not wrong. all I've done here is score cheap points with funny image macros ¯\_(ãƒ,,)_/¯

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 15, 2017, 01:39:03 AM
Honestly you're not wrong. all I've done here is score cheap points with funny image macros ¯\_(ãƒ,,)_/¯

Is this an appeal to be unexiled?  I'll have to review the "funny pics".  If they make me laugh, I'll prolly set you free.

Cap Propaganda

QuoteOne cannot discuss a socialism which has built an enormous industry by reducing the standard of living of the masses and a capitalism which has raised the standard of living*, reduced working hour**, and permitted the consolidation of labor unions***, as if there were the same realities that Marx considered a century ago or that he anticipated according to a system which has since been refuted by events.
Raymond Aron (1955, 2000). The Opium of the Intellectuals. New Brunswick, N.J.: Transaction Publishers. p. 337.

*(http://dirtamericana.com/wp-content/uploads/blogger/_110KgBgA9pU/SoDmSCJSvII/AAAAAAAAAOM/wsqprm8jLsg/s1600/105-0584_IMG.JPG)

**Americans Work the Longest Hours

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/09/news/economy/americans-work-bush/

QuoteMany work even longer. Adults employed full time report working an average of 47 hours per week, which equates to nearly six days a week, according to Gallup. That's about an hour and a half more than they reported a decade ago. Nearly four in 10 workers report logging 50+ hours on the job.Jul 9, 2015

***

QuoteIn 2013 there were 14.5 million members in the U.S., compared with 17.7 million in 1983. In 2013, the percentage of workers belonging to a union was 11.3%, compared to 20.1% in 1983. The rate for the private sector was 6.7%, and for the public sector 35.3%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_unions_in_the_United_States

Karl Marx On Slavery

QuoteFreedom and slavery constitute an antagonism.  Slavery is an economic category of paramount importance.

Without slavery, North America, the most progressive nation, would be transformed into a patriarchal country. Only wipe North America off the map and you will get anarchy, the complete decay of trade and modern civilisation. But to do away with slavery would be to wipe America off the map. Being an economic category, slavery has existed in all nations since the beginning of the world. All that modern nations have achieved is to disguise slavery at home and import it openly into the New World. 

Karl Marx, Letter to Pavel Annekov, dated 28 December 1846.

(http://www.historyguide.org/images/marx-bio.jpg)

Primitive Accumulation:  The Starting Point

Omali Yeshitela, African Peoples Socialist Party

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MGWjf-7lsM

(Capitalism necessitates "primitive accumulation" through slavery as a necessary starting point.)

QuoteThis primitive accumulation plays in Political Economy about the same part as Original Sin in theology.

Karl Marx. Capital Volume One  https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch26.htm

The average American employee works entirely too much and has absolutely nothing to show for it.  The problem with America is that it overworks people merely for the one percent to remain rich.

Quote from: Sorginak on March 15, 2017, 11:26:35 AM
The average American employee works entirely too much and has absolutely nothing to show for it.  The problem with America is that it overworks people merely for the one percent to remain rich.

That is a 100% true statement.  But just remember, capitalism in the 3rd World is far worse, materially, for the average worker(slave).  ~663 million people, globally, ~1 in 10, lack access to safe water.

Water Facts:  http://water.org/water-crisis/water-sanitation-facts/

Does capitalism inherently cause the 3rd world to be in the condition it's in? Can capitalism exist without doing that?

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 15, 2017, 12:09:57 PM
Does capitalism inherently cause the 3rd world to be in the condition it's in? Can capitalism exist without doing that?

(See posts 282/283 & watch vid, it explains it perfectly)

But no, capitalism cannot exist w/o slavery which is an economic category essential to they system for primitive accumulation in particular, but not exclusively.  Euro industrial capitalism could not have happened w/o the invasion/colonialisation of Africa, then India, then they got into China(Opium Wars) and S America and the New World, SE Asia, etc.  The US has taken off from that, in particular requiring African slaves to build the cotton/textile industry which was the foundation of US economic development.  Without that, the US as we know it, wouldnt have happened.

Most of the slaves and resources come from the 3rd World, the "South"(hemisphere) and Europe and the US("North") could not exist w/o that labor and resources.  Capitalism always need slaves as a fundamental economic category to function.  They tend to call it "human trafficking" or "sweatshop labor" these days.

The concentration of surplus value in the form of profits is what drives capitalism.  Remove that and capitalism collapses and you remove slavery and 3rd Worldism.  But that means you essentially have to have a socialist revolution.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 15, 2017, 12:09:57 PM
Does capitalism inherently cause the 3rd world to be in the condition it's in? Can capitalism exist without doing that?

I assume the 'condition' of third world that you are talking about is in reference to low wage and terrible working conditions of employees in third world countries, and the exploitation of natural resources by industrialized countries.

Capitalism, with respect to that, can exist for it is not the cause of this condition. Does it contribute to it? Sure, but it is not the root cause. Corporations of industrialized countries are able to exploit third world workers and natural resources because they can. They can, not because of capitalism, but because of sociopolitical situation in those respective countries. The British occupied India for 400 years, but they would not have been able to had there not been local accomplices. In corporate sense, American corporations are able to build factories and employ low-wage workers in terrible working conditions because local government allows them to do so, usually at a profit. Local corruption and lack of solid governance is the root cause of terrible third world conditions.

You want to talk slavery, how about working conditions in Soviet Union:

Quote from: Working conditions for a Soviet worker changed over time; for instance, at the beginning of the Communist regime the government pursued a policy of worker participation at the enterprise level.[8] During Joseph Stalin's crash-industrialisation drive, workers lost their right to participate in the functioning of the enterprise, and their working conditions deteriorated.[8] In 1940, for example, a decree was promulgated and became law stating that a worker could be arrested if he had three accumulated absences, late arrivals or changed jobs without the official authorisation.[8] Shock work, which meant that workers had to work past regular hours, was introduced alongside central planning.[8] During World War II the pressure on workers increased and it was expected of them to take on Herculean efforts in their work.[8] In the post-war years conditions did not improve but in fact worsened in some cases.[8] For instance, small theft became illegal; this had been allowed for several years to compensate for workers' low salaries.[8] The situation for the common worker improved during the post-Stalin years, and some of the worst measures approved by the Stalin regime to improve worker productivity were repealed.[8] Because of the lack of a stick and carrot policy under the Brezhnev administration, worker productivity and discipline decreased during the 1970s.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_working_class#Standard_of_living

All this in return for allowance from government, set at the helm. Not by your skill set -- by a government bureaucrat. You are slave to the government, in essence. No freedom to change jobs or pursue the life you want.

Quote from: Sylar on March 15, 2017, 05:00:38 PM
I assume the 'condition' of third world that you are talking about is in reference to low wage and terrible working conditions of employees in third world countries, and the exploitation of natural resources by industrialized countries.

Capitalism, with respect to that, can exist for it is not the cause of this condition.* Does it contribute to it? Sure, but it is not the root cause. Corporations of industrialized countries are able to exploit third world workers and natural resources because they can. They can, not because of capitalism, but because of sociopolitical situation in those respective countries**. The British occupied India for 400 years, but they would not have been able to had there not been local accomplices***. In corporate sense, American corporations are able to build factories and employ low-wage workers in terrible working conditions ****because local government allows them to do so, usually at a profit. Local corruption and lack of solid governance is the root cause of terrible third world conditions.
_________________________________________

* Wrong.  Capitalism necessitates slavery or low wage slavery as an economic category.  It is the cause.

**The sociopolitical situation stems from, grows out of the capitalistic economic situation.  Hand in glove.

***The "local accomplices" are also capitalists.  The countries are capitalist.

****The corporations wouldn't even be there in the 1st place if it were not able to use the local slaves and or low wage slaves, because slavery is an economic category of capitalism.

Hey, I thought I was blacklisted. Welp, I think I might just rejoin that list after this.

Quote from: etienne on March 15, 2017, 09:46:16 PM* Wrong.  Capitalism necessitates slavery or low wage slavery as an economic category.  It is the cause.

Nothing wrong with low-wage so long it is a living wage. It is common sense to differentiate between wages earned by a factory worker and a doctor; both are necessary for society to function as it does, but one profession utilizes much more skill than the other. You categorize it as "slavery" but it cannot be more far off. Slavery is when these people have no choice in their job or career choice (notwithstanding residual impacts of historical events on contemporary communities, e.g. slavery and segregation policies, and economic plight of African Americans), like what happens in communist utopias. In capitalist society, you can strive to earn any wage you desire by developing the appropriate skillset. It is a system that incentivises ambition. It is the system that most resembles human nature and that's the reason why it is the dominant system, has been and will always be.

Many problems with capitalism, communism solves none of them without creating even bigger problems and we've got historic experiments in communism gone wrong to prove it.

Aren't you glad that you live in a capitalist society where you have the freedom to criticize it in favor of communist totalitarianism? If you were living in a communist society and dared to criticize it, you'd be so deep in a black hole not even your mother would remember she birthed you.

Quote from: etienne on March 15, 2017, 09:46:16 PM**The sociopolitical situation stems from, grows out of the capitalistic economic situation.  Hand in glove.

Not necessarily. Existence of poor communist states proves so. Venezuela: socialist and poor. Cuba: communist and very poor. North Korea: communist and poor as fuuuuuck.

More importantly, people in all three of these states are doing much, much worse than even the worst in capitalist states. Tell us, would you rather live in social democratic Sweden or in communist North Korea, considering you criticized the former's brand of socialism as 'capitalism'?

Quote from: etienne on March 15, 2017, 09:46:16 PM***The "local accomplices" are also capitalists.

Could be, or they can simply be corrupt government bureaucrats looking to make a quick buck without having anything to do with "means of production".

Quote from: etienne on March 15, 2017, 09:46:16 PM****The corporations wouldn't even be there in the 1st place if it were not able to use the local slaves and or low wage slaves, because slavery is an economic category of capitalism.

We need to remember what "low wage" means. It is a highly relative term, and those who are less wealthy will always exist. Those who are relatively poor have less skills and qualifications, and therefore are more prone to hold low wage jobs.

But does capitalism need low wage jobs for it to exist? The above remark that companies move to third world countries because labor is cheaper may make it seem true, but there is hardly any 'slavery' involved here. The people aren't slaves, they're voluntarily taking the job and generally making enough to live, a consistency of income that make working these jobs considerably more attractive than the alternative. I do not dispute that working conditions may be bad, but people are making the choice to work in those conditions because the alternative is even worse.

Consider this analogy. I am fortunate to have a job and job etiquette requires me to be well-groomed and clean, which involves taking a shower every day. I have a shower and a bathtub in my apartment, but I prefer to use the shower as it is quicker, more convenient, and wastes less water. I use it because it is there, but do I need it? No. I can easily just use the bathtub.

Similarly. companies may use low wage labor, but they do not need it. Evidence of this lies in the fact that companies aren't drawn to the cheapest labor, which would probably be some of the poorest African nations. These countries are too risky, with unstable governments, high degree of corruption, lack of law and order, etc. They seek stable and reliable countries with relatively low wage labor, but certainly not the lowest wage labor they can find.

Even more damning is the fact that low wage labor ultimately discourages innovation. Innovation requires long-term risk, but if you've got all the low wage labor you need then why delve into this risk at all? If labor was expensive, then there is an advantage to innovate new technology to do the job faster with less man hours, and productivity and overall wealth would increase. Admittedly, capitalism doesn't need innovation anymore than it needs low wage labor, but speaking in the long-term innovation is highly important for increased wealth. Innovation is something capitalism is particularly good at encouraging and taking advantage of, which disproves your claim that "capitalism cannot exist without low wage slavery."

Friendly tip for you: less dogma, more critical thinking.

Per De Toqueville ... Americans are never poor, they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires .. the delusion!

Quote from: Sylar on March 15, 2017, 10:56:04 PM
Hey, I thought I was blacklisted. Welp, I think I might just rejoin that list after this.

Nothing wrong with low-wage so long it is a living wage. It is common sense to differentiate between wages earned by a factory worker and a doctor; both are necessary for society to function as it does, but one profession utilizes much more skill than the other. You categorize it as "slavery" but it cannot be more far off. Slavery is when these people have no choice in their job or career choice (notwithstanding residual impacts of historical events on contemporary communities, e.g. slavery and segregation policies, and economic plight of African Americans), like what happens in communist utopias. In capitalist society, you can strive to earn any wage you desire by developing the appropriate skillset. It is a system that incentivises ambition. It is the system that most resembles human nature and that's the reason why it is the dominant system, has been and will always be.

Many problems with capitalism, communism solves none of them without creating even bigger problems and we've got historic experiments in communism gone wrong to prove it.

Aren't you glad that you live in a capitalist society where you have the freedom to criticize it in favor of communist totalitarianism? If you were living in a communist society and dared to criticize it, you'd be so deep in a black hole not even your mother would remember she birthed you.

Not necessarily. Existence of poor communist states proves so. Venezuela: socialist and poor. Cuba: communist and very poor. North Korea: communist and poor as fuuuuuck.

More importantly, people in all three of these states are doing much, much worse than even the worst in capitalist states. Tell us, would you rather live in social democratic Sweden or in communist North Korea, considering you criticized the former's brand of socialism as 'capitalism'?

Could be, or they can simply be corrupt government bureaucrats looking to make a quick buck without having anything to do with "means of production".

We need to remember what "low wage" means. It is a highly relative term, and those who are less wealthy will always exist. Those who are relatively poor have less skills and qualifications, and therefore are more prone to hold low wage jobs.

But does capitalism need low wage jobs for it to exist? The above remark that companies move to third world countries because labor is cheaper may make it seem true, but there is hardly any 'slavery' involved here. The people aren't slaves, they're voluntarily taking the job and generally making enough to live, a consistency of income that make working these jobs considerably more attractive than the alternative. I do not dispute that working conditions may be bad, but people are making the choice to work in those conditions because the alternative is even worse.

Consider this analogy. I am fortunate to have a job and job etiquette requires me to be well-groomed and clean, which involves taking a shower every day. I have a shower and a bathtub in my apartment, but I prefer to use the shower as it is quicker, more convenient, and wastes less water. I use it because it is there, but do I need it? No. I can easily just use the bathtub.

Similarly. companies may use low wage labor, but they do not need it. Evidence of this lies in the fact that companies aren't drawn to the cheapest labor, which would probably be some of the poorest African nations. These countries are too risky, with unstable governments, high degree of corruption, lack of law and order, etc. They seek stable and reliable countries with relatively low wage labor, but certainly not the lowest wage labor they can find.

Even more damning is the fact that low wage labor ultimately discourages innovation. Innovation requires long-term risk, but if you've got all the low wage labor you need then why delve into this risk at all? If labor was expensive, then there is an advantage to innovate new technology to do the job faster with less man hours, and productivity and overall wealth would increase. Admittedly, capitalism doesn't need innovation anymore than it needs low wage labor, but speaking in the long-term innovation is highly important for increased wealth. Innovation is something capitalism is particularly good at encouraging and taking advantage of, which disproves your claim that "capitalism cannot exist without low wage slavery."

Friendly tip for you: less dogma, more critical thinking.

I figured since you actually wrote something, I'd read it.  "E" for effort..

*NEWS FLASH!  Knock-knock, anybody home?  Are you in there SyLAR?!  Guess what?  They ain't no fing "living wage" for SLAVES, you d-bag, wow, get a life.  Jesus Christ on a Scooter, 1st Worlders suck.  Slaves are slaves, they are "human trafficked".  Un fing real. 

*Shit gets innovated regardless of capitalism. 

*Keep "grooming"...on Iggy Island.

*Where coltan comes from:  "Democratic Republic" of Congo:

QuotePlight of African child slaves forced into mines - for our mobile phones

http://www.laborrights.org/in-the-news/plight-african-child-slaves-forced-mines-our-mobile-phones

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/88196000/gif/_88196423_74c5e759-b475-494b-a7cc-13e2af2e5509.gif)(http://laborrightsblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/17/child_labor__colta.jpg)

QuoteIt is impossible to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends upon his not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

Quote from: Baruch on March 10, 2017, 02:36:10 PM
你不能从中文菜单订购？
Nǐ bùnéng cóng zhōngwén càidān dìnggòu?

I can.

Tip: if you're in a Chinese restaurant and the menu is only in Chinese, order the first item on the menu. It's the house specialty.

By the way, traditional characters are a lot prettier:
你不能從中文菜單è¨,購？

For the hard-of-thinking(brain challenged) 1st Worlders:

Subthread:  Where Your 1st World Shit Comes From

--Computers, cell phones, digital tvs, all digital electronics:

Coltan/Capacitors(http://www.robotroom.com/Capacitor-Self-Discharge/All-capacitors.jpg)

QuoteColtan (short for columbiteâ€"tantalite and known industrially as tantalite) is a dull black metallic ore from which the elements niobium and tantalum are extracted. The niobium-dominant mineral in coltan is columbite (after niobium's original American name, columbium), and the tantalum-dominant mineral is tantalite....Approximately 71% of global tantalum supply in 2008 was newly mined...Tantalum minerals are mined in Democratic Republic of Congo(64%), Africa.... tantalum capacitors are used in almost every kind of electronic device.

Congolese work for only $1 per day.  It is laborious, as miners walk for days in the forest to the ore, scratch it with hand tools and pan it....many Congolese leave farming because they need money quickly and cannot wait for crops to grow....Once their food is taken away or they can no longer grow food, people resort to mining to sustain themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltan

(http://www.congoplanet.com/pictures/news/congo_drc_zambia_sadc.jpg)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Flag_of_Congo-Kinshasa_(1966-1971).svg/120px-Flag_of_Congo-Kinshasa_(1966-1971).svg.png)(https://coltanfuellingthewarinthecongo.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/cropped-3019307-poster-1280-conflict.jpg)(http://www.thisissierraleone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Congolese-children-working-like-slaves-in.jpg)(https://cdn1.thehunt.com/app/public/system/note_images/620067/square_preview/3172c9e4e7864902947dfc33189a7355.png)

Slavery is an economic category of capitalism


(I'll add to this subthread as we go)

Quote from: Atheon on March 16, 2017, 05:07:04 AM
I can.

Tip: if you're in a Chinese restaurant and the menu is only in Chinese, order the first item on the menu. It's the house specialty.

By the way, traditional characters are a lot prettier:
你不能從中文菜單è¨,購？

Hold it!  Wait a minute!  Did I just witness someone "one-up" The Spin(oza) Doctor?!  RE CHINA!?  Oh, this is going to get interesting!

:jspringer:

Atheon lives in Taiwan, and they use traditional characters there.  Spin isn't a problem, if you are a prima ballerina ;-))  I try to get people to stop choking on their own vomit ... would you prefer I use the Heimlich on you?

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 15, 2017, 12:09:57 PM
Does capitalism inherently cause the 3rd world to be in the condition it's in? Can capitalism exist without doing that?

People have a higher standard of living, because they are lucky with parents or spouse ... or because of depredations of ancestors (see royalty).  Jealousy is what it is.  Individualist maniacs think they earned that all on their own, they feel entitled.  The individual does contribute ... if you don't move the food from the plate to your mouth, you might starve ;-0  But individualists are narcissists ... insane.  Hydrophobes aren't crazy about water, you can drown ... but the likelihood of that in the shower in the morning, is small.

Quote from: etienne on March 16, 2017, 04:39:49 AM

Applies to every ape man.  It isn't a matter of class.

Quote from: Baruch on March 16, 2017, 06:44:56 AM
Atheon lives in Taiwan, and they use traditional characters there.  Spin isn't a problem, if you are a prima ballerina ;-))  I try to get people to stop choking on their own vomit ... would you prefer I use the Heimlich on you?

Hard to Heimlich me while yer recoupin' from that hammer blow I landed on you.(see, saran wrap fans and cherry bumbs).  You'd prlly like a hine-lick maneuver from yer boy SyLAR!!

(Thus concludes POST #300)

Quote from: Baruch on March 16, 2017, 06:49:19 AM
People have a higher standard of living, because they are lucky with parents or spouse ... or because of depredations of ancestors (see royalty).  Jealousy is what it is.  Individualist maniacs think they earned that all on their own, they feel entitled.  The individual does contribute ... if you don't move the food from the plate to your mouth, you might starve ;-0  But individualists are narcissists ... insane.  Hydrophobes aren't crazy about water, you can drown ... but the likelihood of that in the shower in the morning, is small.

Thanks for sharing that Spin Doc.  I'll let my secretary Chloe file that for ya.

(http://img15.deviantart.net/3b01/i/2007/099/8/5/chloe_in_circular_file_by_irndit.jpg)

Quote from: etienne on March 16, 2017, 08:13:39 AM
Hard to Heimlich me while yer recoupin' from that hammer blow I landed on you.(see, saran wrap fans and cherry bumbs).  You'd prlly like a hine-lick maneuver from yer boy SyLAR!!

(Thus concludes POST #300)

You care about numbers?  And it's only 300?  Seems like 10,000

Quote from: etienne on March 15, 2017, 11:42:30 PM
I figured since you actually wrote something, I'd read it.  "E" for effort..

*NEWS FLASH!  Knock-knock, anybody home?  Are you in there SyLAR?!  Guess what?  They ain't no fing "living wage" for SLAVES, you d-bag, wow, get a life.  Jesus Christ on a Scooter, 1st Worlders suck.  Slaves are slaves, they are "human trafficked".  Un fing real. 

*Shit gets innovated regardless of capitalism. 

*Keep "grooming"...on Iggy Island.

*Where coltan comes from:  "Democratic Republic" of Congo:

(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/88196000/gif/_88196423_74c5e759-b475-494b-a7cc-13e2af2e5509.gif)(http://laborrightsblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/17/child_labor__colta.jpg)

First you claim that capitalism cannot exist without low-wage slavery, and I've shown you how that is false.

Now you change the argument entirely.

The argument you make is against capitalism with inadequate governance system, not against capitalism, for capitalism may work with any kind of government and for that we have many proofs, from US to China and everything in between.

Problem of non-livable wages can be solved by improving governance, enforcing laws, and eradicating/minimizing corruption. Getting rid of capitalism to replace it with totalitarian communism is not a solution; can't replace something you think is terrible with a worse, much worse, alternative.

United States had third world working conditions at its factories at one point, but those days are long gone.

"Shit gets innovated regardless of capitalism"

No one made an argument otherwise. Capitalism, however, is the best economic system in existence at encouraging innovation.

Quote from: Gilgamesh on March 14, 2017, 04:43:50 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/KSouymd.png)

Penalized for "triple(maybe more) false equivalency violation", 15 yds, loss of down, possible game ejection with next foul.  Disagreement does not = Nazism.  Nazism = Nazism.  Ignoring does not = Nazism.  Nazism = Nazism.  Nazism does not = Communism, they are antithetic.

Memo:  Updated Exilees


(http://oi67.tinypic.com/svpf1j.jpg)

Door prize for anyone who can guess "who's next?"  ;)

In The Cask Of Amantillado ... the victim doesn't wall himself in, does he?

Quote from: etienne on March 16, 2017, 08:00:58 PM
Memo:  Updated Exilees


(http://oi67.tinypic.com/svpf1j.jpg)

Door prize for anyone who can guess "who's next?"  ;)

Me.  I'd rather be on it than not.

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 16, 2017, 11:08:52 PM
Me.  I'd rather be on it than not.

Your wish is my command.  No prize since, er, it's you.

Quote from: etienne on March 16, 2017, 08:00:58 PM
Memo:  Updated Exilees


(http://oi67.tinypic.com/svpf1j.jpg)

Door prize for anyone who can guess "who's next?"  ;)

Are you 12?

Quote from: Shiranu on March 17, 2017, 02:14:07 AM
Are you 12?

No, worse. ~58 (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=11427.msg1171119#msg1171119).

Boy, that was quicker than I thought.  We have, as of last nite, two new deportees to Iggy Island, one voluntary(Management says "thanks"), "Mike CI", and another, somewhat unexpected, "Baruch", who lost all credibility as to political/socioeconomic discourse with his mind boggling and vehement assertion that, I paraphrase, "Plato invented Marxism"! :what:  Perhaps he was drunk.  This claim gave Management severe misgivings as to the possibility that avowed Atheists may, in fact, be as or more stupid than Believers re politics.  Everyone knows that Jesus, not Plato, invented Marxism:

Quote Acts 4:35 King James Version

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold.
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Karl Marx-1875

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". 

Please again note, that all deportations are subject to appeal and alot of that depends on the deportee's ability to make Management laugh, NOT cry.

(https://s22.postimg.org/q4itoce0x/image_3.png)

Note:  no prize awarded as 1 deportee was voluntary and no one guessed the other.  Keep trying though--have FAITH!

Quote from: Shiranu on March 17, 2017, 02:14:07 AM
Are you 12?

I was thinking more like 8/9.

Quote from: Mike Cl on March 17, 2017, 11:01:04 AM
I was thinking more like 8/9.

You volunteered, Mike CI, take some responsibility.

But, haha, you've all been reduced to resorting to ad hominem, which means you "got nothin'".  Gotta "purge" and make space for some real, clear, rational thinkers here.

QuoteGotta "purge" and make space for some real, clear, rational thinkers here.

LOL. Good luck with that.

You mean card carrying communist? Followers of Stalin, Mao, Fidel, Che, Kim Un, Merkel?
Not many of them on this forum.

But really, what are you selling here?

Btw, I am surprised to see Shiranu on your  exile's list. I always thought he was one of your lot.
Ho hum.

When will you storm the Winter Palace? So far it is just hot air. Go for it!

Apropos, the ignore list of yours, is it wise? These were the only ones bothered to reply to your posts.

Keep it up and you have the thread all to yourself.  :holdtears:

Quote from: pr126 on March 17, 2017, 11:29:06 AM
LOL. Good luck with that.

You mean card carrying communist? Followers of Stalin, Mao, Fidel, Che, Kim Un, Merkel?
Not many of them on this forum.

But really, what are you selling here?

Btw, I am surprised to see Shiranu on your  exile's list. I always thought he was one of your lot.
Ho hum.

When will you storm the Winter Palace? So far it is just hot air. Go for it!

Apropos, the ignore list of yours, is it wise? These were the only ones bothered to reply to your posts.

Keep it up and you have the thread all to yourself.  :holdtears:

Yeah, it may just be you and me as last ???-fessor and Rational Man standing.  We'll see.  I like good jokes(hint).

I dont know what Shiran-who? is all about as he/she/it mainly reduced his/her/itself to ad hominem and has contributed, thus far, ZERO to the topic of so-comm, which, if one takes a second out of bloviating nonsense to look, is what the thread is all about.  There's a whole "Master Class" on the subject here.

I am surrounded by 8' tall piles o' Winter Palace as we "speak".  I got more Winter Palace than the Eskimo King.

Quote...if one takes a second out of bloviating nonsense to look, is what the thread is all about.

And therein lies the problem; you have spoken so, so much to say so, so little. If a concept cannot be sufficiently and curtly explained, then it is in the realm of theoretical and impractical intellectual mind games rather than something practical and tangible that can actually be used in the real world. You probably don't realise it, but what you just said literally describes your entire posting style; talking at length with very little to actually say.

Additionally this thread is, and always has been, about you... not socialism or communism. Given the two together, I have no interest in affiliating with your position or engaging in the topic. When I posted my opinion on it against my better judgement that you actually were being serious, you response was, "Nuh uh, everything you posted was wrong!" (with zero evidence) and continued to just repeat what you had been saying without actually addressing what was said.

And don't even get me started on the childishness you have displayed for the majority of the thread.

Don't cast stones from your glass house, and don't be surprised when people find your shtick obnoxious and annoying.

When a so-called intellectual is ignorant of the intellectual history of Western civilization ... even more ignorant than Karl Marx ... then I would call that a fail ;-(  I had hoped so much from him, this potential acolyte of chaos (agains the Matrix) ... not a Neo, just a Paleo.  Not a hero, just a zero.

US sanctions and saber rattling @ the DPRK not working:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jvBExMdCQw&feature=em-uploademail

Frederick Engels:  Socialism is scientific, NOT "Utopian"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWK-PM2gE9U

Socialists/communists are like economists in general ... they wished their bullshit was science.  But it isn't even proctology.  Physics envy.

But yes, trying to poke a stick in the eye of the Norks ... isn't something I would do either.  Not that they are wonderful or anything, I just hate chauvinism ... leads to Third Reich war mongering.

Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 08:30:09 PM
Socialists/communists are like economists in general ... they wished their bullshit was science.  But it isn't even proctology.  Physics envy.

But yes, trying to poke a stick in the eye of the Norks ... isn't something I would do either.  Not that they are wonderful or anything, I just hate chauvinism ... leads to Third Reich war mongering.

Do you ever say anything that makes sense?

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 17, 2017, 08:35:18 PM
Do you ever say anything that makes sense?

He thinks Plato invented Marxism, soooo...

Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 08:30:09 PM
Socialists/communists are like economists in general ... they wished their bullshit was science.  But it isn't even proctology.  Physics envy.

But yes, trying to poke a stick in the eye of the Norks ... isn't something I would do either.  Not that they are wonderful or anything, I just hate chauvinism ... leads to Third Reich war mongering.

So-comm IS as much a science as physics or biology, etc.  It's uses the scientific method to observe and explain human historical movement in relation to the material, physical world, or human "economics".  But you'd have to actually READ Marx and Engels to know that.  And thats not going to happen, so keep on spinozing, dervish man...

Are you using the word "chauvinism" in the sense of "patriotism" or dogmaticism, or what?

Quote from: Shiranu on March 17, 2017, 04:16:30 PM
And therein lies the problem; you have spoken so, so much to say so, so little. If a concept cannot be sufficiently and curtly explained, then it is in the realm of theoretical and impractical intellectual

First of all, Skippy, you DONT have to come here.  Nobody's holding a gun to your head but I can think of a certain someone who might like to.  Don't worry, just one bullet in the revolver.

Second, the bolded is a logical fallacy, a non sequitur and good luck finding "'Curtly' Stephan Hawking, or Richard Dawkins or Karl Marx".

Quote from: Baruch on March 17, 2017, 07:22:24 PM
When a so-called intellectual is ignorant of the intellectual history of Western civilization ... even more ignorant than Karl Marx ... then I would call that a fail ;-(  I had hoped so much from him, this potential acolyte of chaos (agains the Matrix) ... not a Neo, just a Paleo.  Not a hero, just a zero.

More word salad spin from Dervish Man.

QuoteFirst of all, Skippy, you DONT have to come here.  Nobody's holding a gun to your head but I can think of a certain someone who might like to.  Don't worry, just one bullet in the revolver.

And nobody is holding a gun telling me I cant express my opinion that you are are full of shit and of yourself. Also, your little fetish with violence only speaks volumes about yourself so carry on. I doubt anyone here actually gives you any credibility anymore, but just in case... shred it up even more.

QuoteSecond, the bolded is a logical fallacy, a non sequitur...

Which is fine, because the point still stands that if you cannot express it simply and curtly then it is, again, mental gymnastics rather than practical application knowledge. That is not meant to refute your point, nor even if it was is it by definition a non sequitur, so think of it what ever you like. I am not holding a gun to your head forcing you to speak or think in practical terms.

Quote...and good luck finding "'Curtly' Stephan Hawking, or Richard Dawkins or Karl Marx".

One of those is not like the others.

"Curtly" Stephan Hawking and Richard Dawkins DO exist, and I would assume a relatively curtly Karl Marx would as well. The difference is two of them are scientists who deal with tangible and mathematical concepts, the other is a poli-sci expert who deals with theoretical and mathematical concepts. To put it differently; scientists like RD and SH deal with concepts that follow set-in-stone rules... physics is physics is physics, biology is biology is biology. Marx on the other hand dealt with humans, who follow very few constants and possess a mind-boggling amount of variables. 

Perhaps one of your underlying flaws is you think humans can be reduced to mathematical equations who perfectly follow your laws, but as Marx and every other poli-sci and philosopher has learned since the start of civilization, that is just not the case. Even the most perfect of political theory will not work as intended because it is thrown into a chaotic system. The fact that you think humans are not emotional before logical creatures, as well as your apparent lack of any social ability, indicates that for all you think you know about poli-sci, you know very little about the actual implication or implementation of it.


Edit: Most of all though, I just enjoy posting towards someone who put me on their ignore list and then continues to address me. It gives me a real ego-boner to know I matter that much to someone. Not quite as engorged as when I was ignored and then saw thread after thread of the guy talking shit about me... but it's still a slight chubber.

Quote from: Shiranu on March 17, 2017, 11:00:46 PM

Which is fine, because the point still stands that if you cannot express it simply and curtly then it is, again, mental gymnastics rather than practical application knowledge. That is not meant to refute your point, nor even if it was is it by definition a non sequitur, so think of it what ever you like. I am not holding a gun to your head forcing you to speak or think in practical terms.

I agree with you that points should be made succinctly and straightforwardly.  And I will add, without suggestions of violence.

Quote from: Cavebear on March 18, 2017, 01:01:39 AM
I agree with you that points should be made succinctly and straightforwardly.  And I will add, without suggestions of violence.

That was a tongue-in-cheek sass at his earlier post. Unless you meant that at him, in which case my bad... not fully sober.

Quote from: etienne on March 17, 2017, 10:13:08 PM
First of all, Skippy, you DONT have to come here.  Nobody's holding a gun to your head but I can think of a certain someone who might like to.  Don't worry, just one bullet in the revolver.

Second, the bolded is a logical fallacy, a non sequitur and good luck finding "'Curtly' Stephan Hawking, or Richard Dawkins or Karl Marx".

[mod]If you do not learn to conduct yourself properly on this forum, you will be banned. Read the rules as linked in this reply and follow them to a T. This is your final warning. Period. No debate.

Have a day.[/mod]
The Rules of the Forum (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5589.0)

Quote from: PickelledEggs on March 18, 2017, 02:47:38 AM
[mod]If you do not learn to conduct yourself properly on this forum, you will be banned. Read the rules as linked in this reply and follow them to a T. This is your final warning. Period. No debate.

Have a day.[/mod]
The Rules of the Forum (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5589.0)

Hey, I hear they want to colonize Space, and they have these one way tickets to Mars to out there...

Did I get other warnings?   News to me.  Behavioral censorship, nice!

Yeah, typical, you allow these dumbfucks to come in and shit all over my thread, then you warn ME. Thats typical bullshit cronyistic "moderation".

How about fuck yourself,  I'm out, dont need your fucking POS forum.  Buh bye.  Keep your idiots here, including yourself.

Quote from: Shiranu on March 18, 2017, 01:22:15 AM
That was a tongue-in-cheek sass at his earlier post. Unless you meant that at him, in which case my bad... not fully sober.

It was directed at etienne.  No problem with you. 

Quote from: _Xenu_ on March 17, 2017, 08:35:18 PM
Do you ever say anything that makes sense?

Are you saying you like/believe political ideology?  Are you saying you believe that the continuous fail that is economics, is worthwhile?  Almost all economists missed the 2008 breakdown.  Perhaps the others were just lucky ;-)

Quote from: etienne on March 17, 2017, 10:16:19 PM
More word salad spin from Dervish Man.
+
Are you using the word "chauvinism" in the sense of "patriotism" or dogmaticism, or what?

Yes, though usually chauvinism goes beyond politics to culture favoritism.

My English is pretty plain, though conversational in style.  I think English is your native language, so you do comprehend what I am saying, I think.  I simply don't accept anyone's precious shibboleths.

Quote from: etienne on March 18, 2017, 03:03:34 AM
Hey, I hear they want to colonize Space, and they have these one way tickets to Mars to out there...

Did I get other warnings?   News to me.  Behavioral censorship, nice!

Yeah, typical, you allow these dumbfucks to come in and shit all over my thread, then you warn ME. Thats typical bullshit cronyistic "moderation".

How about fuck yourself,  I'm out, dont need your fucking POS forum.  Buh bye.  Keep your idiots here, including yourself.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

This topic is now locked and OP has been banned for threats of violence and lack of respect for forum rules.