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Science Section => Science General Discussion => Topic started by: Awakepuddle on February 26, 2017, 10:37:32 PM

Title: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Awakepuddle on February 26, 2017, 10:37:32 PM
I know I get frustrated by theists and trumpists (I guess both trump and trumpets blow but anyway ) when confronted by data they will not process that into their conclusion
Today's New Yorker ( liberal elitist rag ) has a great article on some the neurobiology of why that is and the fact that unfortunately that is part of how all our braims work. Good read

Not sure if allowed to post external links , if not I'll delete it and recommend google New Yorker why facts don't matter otherwise

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

Does is this change your thoughts or frustrations at others who just don't get it?
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Sorginak on February 26, 2017, 10:56:47 PM
Facts do not change minds due to cognitive dissonance. 
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Awakepuddle on February 26, 2017, 11:16:32 PM
Agreed but why do we have that. Why is our brain wired that way. The article had some nice incites into the biology and psychology of the phenomenon
Cognitive dissidence is an effect not a cause so to speak. It is what happens but not why.
My point was we see this dissidence in our conversations and at least I get frautrated. It's interesting to me to realize this is not a fault in the person. It a fault in our brains and that can ease the frustration.  Why our brains works like it does is interesting and fundamentally dictates the society and world we live in.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on February 27, 2017, 06:50:38 AM
I posted the same article in the psychology section ... but didn't mean to repeat you, sorry.  Now that I did that mistake, I am not willing to take it back, no matter what arguments you make ;-)
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Awakepuddle on February 27, 2017, 11:11:36 AM
I already think your a copy cat and time stamps won't change my mind ;-)
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: trdsf on February 27, 2017, 12:51:13 PM
I would say facts matter.  What also matters is that schools don't teach the methods of open inquiry, they just pile on facts so you can get past that year's exam.  So there's no baseline appreciation of facts, or ability to process them.  It's something you need to pick up on your own.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on February 27, 2017, 08:48:06 PM
I would say facts matter.  What also matters is that schools don't teach the methods of open inquiry, they just pile on facts so you can get past that year's exam.  So there's no baseline appreciation of facts, or ability to process them.  It's something you need to pick up on your own.

Ultimately everyone is self taught, but inhibited by parents and teachers.  This is so the children don't eat the adults alive.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on February 28, 2017, 07:31:12 AM
Facts don't matter to people who shouldn't matter.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Sal1981 on February 28, 2017, 08:20:16 AM
I skimmed through that article.

Once again, it seems like cultural evolution is far ahead of biological evolution.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: GrinningYMIR on February 28, 2017, 09:22:05 AM
Facts matter. Just ask Arcturus Mengsk.
On the other hand sometimes someone with the most power, money, or influence can use the facts or even blatantly lie about them and people believe. Again ask Arcturus Mengsk.

How do you think religions have been so big? True believers are manipulated by the powers that be. Even if some people are truly benevolent religious types and there are some that are. Don't get me wrong. They are diluted by facts that have been twisted to prove something that never happened.

Means to and end. But what is the end?
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on February 28, 2017, 07:34:05 PM
I skimmed through that article.

Once again, it seems like cultural evolution is far ahead of biological evolution.

Yes, Elon Musk will Borg us all, even before the Federation is created.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on February 28, 2017, 07:35:02 PM
Facts matter. Just ask Arcturus Mengsk.
On the other hand sometimes someone with the most power, money, or influence can use the facts or even blatantly lie about them and people believe. Again ask Arcturus Mengsk.

How do you think religions have been so big? True believers are manipulated by the powers that be. Even if some people are truly benevolent religious types and there are some that are. Don't get me wrong. They are diluted by facts that have been twisted to prove something that never happened.

Means to and end. But what is the end?

Pink ponies says you ;-)
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: fencerider on March 01, 2017, 12:23:49 AM
Thom Hartman calls it the plutocrats, the suckers, and the shills. Its the job of the right wing shills (like pastors) to get the suckers to believe that what the plutocrats want is in their best interests.... Right now Trump is the biggest shill of them all. He said "cut taxes". He said "increase military spending". You ever notice that they never say both those things in the same sentence. Maybe the dumb people would figure out there is a problem if they ever say them both together.

They say that after studyin the brains of democrats and republicans with MRI and other such tools that there is a difference in brain structure that you can see. Most democrats have a certain kind of brain structure. Most republicans have a certain kind of brain structure that is not the same as democrats. I wish I could see those brain scans, but they dont show up very well on the radio.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Unbeliever on March 01, 2017, 05:59:56 PM
Well, I found this:

Here's What Science Says About the Brains of Democrats and Republicans (https://braindecoder.com/post/politics-neuroscience-1282982492)
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on March 01, 2017, 07:58:15 PM
Well, I found this:

Here's What Science Says About the Brains of Democrats and Republicans (https://braindecoder.com/post/politics-neuroscience-1282982492)

People who are self-serving, end up as inclusive cannibals.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Cavebear on March 02, 2017, 06:07:44 AM
Facts don't matter to people who don't think factually.  But they matter to we who do think rationally.  I don't give a rat's ass about non-factual people (except fighting them) , but when people say facts don't matter, I can really only laugh at them and their imaginings of the world.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on March 02, 2017, 07:13:46 AM
Facts don't matter to people who don't think factually.  But they matter to we who do think rationally.  I don't give a rat's ass about non-factual people (except fighting them) , but when people say facts don't matter, I can really only laugh at them and their imaginings of the world.

What the Bible says, on chapter X, verse Y ... is a fact.  However what that means to a person will vary.  It is the interpretation of reality that is tricky, not the facts themselves.  Trump was elected President, that is a fact.  Yet people are still in denial.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Cavebear on March 02, 2017, 08:36:17 AM
What the Bible says, on chapter X, verse Y ... is a fact.  However what that means to a person will vary.  It is the interpretation of reality that is tricky, not the facts themselves.  Trump was elected President, that is a fact.  Yet people are still in denial.

LOL! What the bible says is what the bible says.  That is factual in the context of what the bible says (never minding that the various trnslations aren't even close to the original writings (such as they were centuries after). 

If I write "The knight is climbing the poker", that statement is true is the sense I wrote it.  Its the content of the bible and all theist texts that make no sense other than an agreement that what is written is in there.  That makes little sense, otherwise.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Unbeliever on March 02, 2017, 05:24:04 PM
What the Bible says, on chapter X, verse Y ... is a fact.  However what that means to a person will vary.  It is the interpretation of reality that is tricky, not the facts themselves.

Yeah, both the Copenhagen and the Many-worlds interpretations of QM are based on the same facts, but are very different worldviews.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on March 02, 2017, 06:53:53 PM
Yeah, both the Copenhagen and the Many-worlds interpretations of QM are based on the same facts, but are very different worldviews.

Since I don't like snuff, I have never liked the Copenhagen interpretation ;-)  The Many-worlds interpretation is a complete denial of the scientific method.  It comes from taking the math too literally, a lot like stupid Bible fanatics.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2017, 05:39:24 AM
Since I don't like snuff, I have never liked the Copenhagen interpretation ;-)  The Many-worlds interpretation is a complete denial of the scientific method.  It comes from taking the math too literally, a lot like stupid Bible fanatics.

You say that you don't like the Copenhagen interpretation of physics because you don't like snuff and "Copenhagen" is a brand of snuff???

Is there no end of your inanity?
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2017, 07:27:41 AM
I find reality funny, not worrisome.  Laugh or cry .. I choose to laugh.  "we are all going to die" ... but I say this with a laugh, not a cry.  Life is a tragic comedy.

Of course not everyone will get my jokes.  If you don't get it, them it isn't for you.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2017, 07:34:53 AM
I find reality funny, not worrisome.  Laugh or cry .. I choose to laugh.  "we are all going to die" ... but I say this with a laugh, not a cry.  Life is a tragic comedy.

Of course not everyone will get my jokes.  If you don't get it, them it isn't for you.

I get it as a joke. The problem is that you keep pushing this silliness as a rational argument DARING us to see it as a joke.

And the problem is that we are TRYING to have rational discussions here and you are just becoming the joke yourself.

I think you have it in you to make good arguments, but just won't. 

If all you want to do is increase your post count, please just do it in some of the silly threads.  If you want to be serious, then please be serious.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on March 05, 2017, 08:22:02 AM
I am serious here from time to time.  And I hear .. crickets.  This is a silly website (no disrespect intended to anyone).  If I were serious, about controversial things, the level of insult and invective would be much higher, and I don't want to contribute to that.

And no, people claim to be serious and rational ... but I call bull crap on that too, same as you.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: sdelsolray on March 07, 2017, 12:38:36 PM
Facts do not change minds due to cognitive dissonance. 

Facts often do not change minds due to compartmentalization.  It is subsequent cognitive dissonance that provides an opportunity to correct that dysfunction.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Awakepuddle on March 14, 2017, 10:20:24 PM
@barusch
I'm glad you are generally not serious or malicious in your comments. Living life properly is important and if we're all going to die, better to die laughing then crying I suppose.  But while you call this a silly website some of us actually come here for honest, human perspective. It can be difficult to have these conversations face to face or with people we know for fear of repercussions. But sound off to yourself is an echo chamber. To hear honest feedback and criticism is a wonderful way to learn about yourself and your beliefs and hopefully become a better person or thinker out of it. I cannot claim to know others motives, only my own. If you look at my posts honestly ask for feeed back and comments.  Not for a echo chamber or vitriol but feedback to better understand how my thought processes can improve. To laugh at that, to minimize our journeys and questions belittles those of us interested in honest thought and discourse.
Any that's my position.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Baruch on March 15, 2017, 06:54:41 AM
@barusch
I'm glad you are generally not serious or malicious in your comments. Living life properly is important and if we're all going to die, better to die laughing then crying I suppose.  But while you call this a silly website some of us actually come here for honest, human perspective. It can be difficult to have these conversations face to face or with people we know for fear of repercussions. But sound off to yourself is an echo chamber. To hear honest feedback and criticism is a wonderful way to learn about yourself and your beliefs and hopefully become a better person or thinker out of it. I cannot claim to know others motives, only my own. If you look at my posts honestly ask for feeed back and comments.  Not for a echo chamber or vitriol but feedback to better understand how my thought processes can improve. To laugh at that, to minimize our journeys and questions belittles those of us interested in honest thought and discourse.
Any that's my position.

I recognize that for some people, this is a safe place.  I am honest and very human.  All my posts are sincere .. even if its my position, a repeat of someone else's position, or I am being ... provocative to the ape men.  And yes, this is an echo chamber, for the "bohemians" ... but I are one, in more than one way.  I enjoy the therapy I get here, and some of the posts of others are either thoughtful or funny ... but even Bob Hope doesn't score on every joke.  It is the general position here that humans are mere apes.  I consider us to be apes plus .. but then I am a theist.  Sorry if your feelings were hurt.  But the first rule of "fight club" is to not talk about "fight club".  Your heart to heart is greatly appreciated.  Most posts by most people never achieve an actual human connection, just shadow boxing.  When people talk of themselves, not their positions ... I do pay careful attention, but I don't comment on that .. I empathize.  I know the pain of life.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Awakepuddle on March 17, 2017, 11:04:56 PM
@b
Thanks. I appreciate that comment and feedback.
. As an atheist I still believe we are apes plus. The plus is the emergant properties of cognition from the pattern seeking and learning brain that has evolved to our species. But it still something unique and special.
Regardless having actual human responses with empathy is unfortunately a disappearing trait in our reality entertainment world so your personal comments were very much appreciated.

Regarding the topics at hand, cognitivee dissidence seems to be a hard wired trait of our brains for whatever reason and it was interesting to see a study that starkly demonstrates it.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Cavebear on March 18, 2017, 12:40:19 AM
Facts do not change minds due to cognitive dissonance.

I was just reading about that.  But if some people are just impervious to facts, what can you do.  I hate appealing to emotions.

It used to be that old people were simply imperious to facts and you had to just wait for them to die, but it seems now that age does not matter and facts just aren't important.  Unsupported claims and tweets count as much as serious research
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Solomon Zorn on March 18, 2017, 07:53:08 AM
...Regarding the topics at hand, cognitivee dissidence seems to be a hard wired trait of our brains...
Dissonance.
Title: Re: Why facts don't matter
Post by: Cavebear on March 18, 2017, 08:31:54 AM
Dissonance.

Sometimes, spelling counts...  LOL!