Quote"I think its absurd to be in a country that is aspiring to freedom, that for so long has preached liberty, you know the idea that a country would move towards religious persecution is one that is... it's frighting and its insane to think that we are living through that time. We like to think as people that we have seen the past and that we have learned from what has happened. But it's frightening to see how quickly you can repeat the ills of the past when enough people are afraid and hungry. And those are two things that if you combine them and use them in the right way, you can get people to commit the most heinous crimes against each other."
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When trump starts pushing Muslims into internment camps, spearheading christian rule into every corner of america under penalty, starts branding gays with a hot iron.. then he might have a point. But till that happens, it not just jumping the shark at this moment, its jumping the whale shark.
Quote from: Munch on February 11, 2017, 09:40:29 PM
When trump starts pushing Muslims into internment camps, spearheading christian rule into every corner of america under penalty, starts branding gays with a hot iron.. then he might have a point. But till that happens, it not just jumping the shark at this moment, its jumping the whale shark.
There are people like that, and if they get power (who are they? the mark of cain on their foreheads perhaps?) then some people will need killing. Patience ... and don't judge people too early, you might be shooting the innocent. After all, V For Vengeance happens in GB ;-( As did 1984 ;-((
It is already a given that Trump is one hundred percent worse than Bush could have been.
Add to that the fact that people never learn from history and always realize the truth of what is happening too late, it is a very real possibility that Trump is going to utterly destroy America.
How did we get from escaping England for a newfound freedom to aborting our freedoms to a corrupt political enterprise?
Quote from: Munch on February 11, 2017, 09:40:29 PM
When trump starts pushing Muslims into internment camps, spearheading christian rule into every corner of america under penalty, starts branding gays with a hot iron.. then he might have a point. But till that happens, it not just jumping the shark at this moment, its jumping the whale shark.
I'd rather not let it get to that point...
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 01:26:16 AM
I'd rather not let it get to that point...
You and I are in the minority, unfortunately.
Quote from: Sorginak on February 12, 2017, 01:45:25 AM
You and I are in the minority, unfortunately.
I think you mean vocal minority. Although, I doubt that opinion is in the minority any way you slice it
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Quote from: Sorginak on February 12, 2017, 12:26:45 AM
It is already a given that Trump is one hundred percent worse than Bush could have been.
Add to that the fact that people never learn from history and always realize the truth of what is happening too late, it is a very real possibility that Trump is going to utterly destroy America.
How did we get from escaping England for a newfound freedom to aborting our freedoms to a corrupt political enterprise?
There is an ongoing relationship between the US and GB ... we in the US have been un-citizens since the Fed was created, by the BoE. You are a slave of the Crown, for over 100 years now.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 01:26:16 AM
I'd rather not let it get to that point...
I'm convinced it won't do honestly, not because trump might develop a grain of empathy, he won't, it's just that America has laws in place now that it didn't back when they forced Japanese decent citizens into camps.
Quote from: Munch on February 12, 2017, 06:40:03 AM
I'm convinced it won't do honestly, not because trump might develop a grain of empathy, he won't, it's just that America has laws in place now that it didn't back when they forced Japanese decent citizens into camps.
We would have done it to the German-Americans and the Italian-Americans. We did do it, temporarily to the Italian-Americans on the path the citizenship ... they were so mortified by it, that they never protested, were never compensated. The German-American repression was mostly in WW I, the number two newspaper language in the US in 1914 was German, not Spanish. My German-American relatives didn't dodge the draft, and one was sent to France (got lucky, never saw combat). FEMA camps are real, for pandemics. Pandemics are real, for quarantine. Pray that biological weapons are never used. Trump does have empathy, for the wealthy and maybe for ordinary blue collar workers, who the US has screwed for 40 years now. Think on that during your next trip to Walmart.
Quote from: Munch on February 12, 2017, 06:40:03 AM
I'm convinced it won't do honestly, not because trump might develop a grain of empathy, he won't, it's just that America has laws in place now that it didn't back when they forced Japanese decent citizens into camps.
America has laws in place regarding freedom of religion to. Didn't seem to slow him down any when he issued an executive order aimed specifically at those who practice a certain religion.
Quote from: Munch on February 12, 2017, 06:40:03 AM
I'm convinced it won't do honestly, not because trump might develop a grain of empathy, he won't, it's just that America has laws in place now that it didn't back when they forced Japanese decent citizens into camps.
I wouldn't be so certain. There are already motions to make a muslim registry and give people the right to discriminate if they like, because their religion says they can. There are more examples, but I just woke up and can't remember
Quote from: Johan on February 12, 2017, 11:42:01 AM
America has laws in place regarding freedom of religion to. Didn't seem to slow him down any when he issued an executive order aimed specifically at those who practice a certain religion.
Too be consistent, we need to ban the issuing of all visas. That is not bigoted, it is universally anti-human. Actually, those countries have poor vetting of travelers .. on that basis, no matter what the color or religion of their citizens, I would carefully vett travelers from those countries. But even a temporary ban is unnecessary, one simply has to ask customs to do their jobs.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 01:21:47 PM
I wouldn't be so certain. There are already motions to make a muslim registry and give people the right to discriminate if they like, because their religion says they can. There are more examples, but I just woke up and can't remember
Yes, I can't wait for Satanists to be defended under such a law, when they sacrifice children ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on February 12, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Yes, I can't wait for Satanists to be defended under such a law, when they sacrifice children ;-)
Satanists don't sacrifice children. They are atheist trolls. They don't even believe in Satan.
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.
The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 12, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.
The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.
Also, the government, when it is working as one solid republican monster, it is even more powerful than the law. Checks and balances will rarely happen, if at all.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 12, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.
The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.
If that was the case, what was to stop the supreme court from doing nasty, evil things back when obama was in power then? If its not just the president but everything else, then what made it such a certainty that the members of the supreme court were all on the peoples side at the time, and are not now, just because of 1 of trumps elected members in it?
Quote from: Munch on February 12, 2017, 04:32:16 PM
If that was the case, what was to stop the supreme court from doing nasty, evil things back when obama was in power then? If its not just the president but everything else, then what made it such a certainty that the members of the supreme court were all on the peoples side at the time, and are not now, just because of 1 of trumps elected members in it?
Uhh. Part of the reason so many bad, nasty things didn't happen was because Obama has more of a conscience than Trump.
But even if we take the political bias out of it, most of the things he tried to get done was blocked by republicans. Democrats did not dominate the 3 branches during his terms.
I also think it's pretty easy for you to make it seem so.... harmless... since you live on the other side of the pond and aren't directly dealing with this. A misunderstanding of how the U.S. government functions might be an issue too.
Quotef that was the case, what was to stop the supreme court from doing nasty, evil things back when obama was in power then?
I didn't realise the British and American governments were that different. Without having to write a poli. sci. text book for you...
The Supreme Court is not capable of establishing laws, only interpreting existing laws within the (their interpretation) context of what the Constitution says is legal or not and thus deciding if a law shale or shale not remain in effect. Thus the Supreme Court, while the last word on any law passed, cannot do anything, "nasty, evil" by itself because it has no power to actually implement a law.
That said, there is nothing to stop them from interpreting laws for the worst regardless of who the president was, and since the court was balanced towards a conservative view before the death of Scalia, it did infact uphold some really shitty laws under Obama, Bush, and many others; see recently Kelo v. City of New London (taking private land from an owner and giving it to a land development company = legal), Exxon Shipping Co. v. Baker (where Exxon had to pay pennies for one of the worst environmental disasters in history, greatly boosting their stock [which one of the justices had stock in] and of course Citizens United. And of course you cant forget Bush v. Gore, where the Republican majority Supreme Court halted the recount in Florida and gave Bush the win by default.
If you want to get more historic, also check out, Hammer v. Daggerhart (Child labour is legal), Plessy v. Ferguson (Jim Crow-era) Dred Scott (blacks are not human beings) and as recently as 86', Bowers v. Hardrick upholding Georgia's discriminatory laws against the LGBT community.
QuoteIf its not just the president but everything else, then what made it such a certainty that the members of the supreme court were all on the peoples side at the time, and are not now, just because of 1 of trumps elected members in it?
Edit: Actually, re-read that... never said the Supreme Court was. The Supreme Court under Scalia was terrible, and I think my and other's posts here throughout the years show we never thought the SC was a tool for good. The problem is that it is now looking at becoming a tool for even worse.
End edit: The Supreme Court has nothing to do with Trump (yet). The Republican party existed before Trump, and held similar views to him before Trump was even a blip on the political radar. The problem is that with Trump and more radical Republicans winning seats in the Senate and House, every single branch of the government now has a Republican/neo-con majority... thus eliminating the system of checks and balances.
To go back to the SC though, in a few years... it is quite possible the SC will have everything to do with Trump since he already has one person in place and several of the Justices, including the more progressive ones, are getting near that death-y type of age. It's well within the realm of reason that Trump will get several Justice picks... which means his impact will be felt for another 20, 30, 40 years of lawmaking (or interpretation as the case may be).
Seriously though, if you are going to weigh in on American politics... do some of this research yourself. Frankly, the American poli. sci. field is really fascinating and interesting to learn about, so it's not like it's a chore.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
I also think it's pretty easy for you to make it seem so.... harmless... since you live on the other side of the pond and aren't directly dealing with this. A misunderstanding of how the U.S. government functions might be an issue too.
This x100.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 04:55:35 PM
I also think it's pretty easy for you to make it seem so.... harmless... since you live on the other side of the pond and aren't directly dealing with this. A misunderstanding of how the U.S. government functions might be an issue too.
Thats seems kind of dismissive don't you think? We live in an age of information now, its not like 30 years ago when the only information we got came from bias newspapers and news stations about what was happening in the world. Thats like saying you can't have an opinion on brexit because you don't live here?
QuoteSeriously though, if you are going to weigh in on American politics... do some of this research yourself. Frankly, the American poli. sci. field is really fascinating and interesting to learn about, so it's not like it's a chore.
I would do, but it feels pointless to weigh in more heavily on it, since your own opinion is so bias anyway it wouldn't matter what facts are drawn up. ;)
Quote from: Munch on February 12, 2017, 05:25:51 PM
Thats seems kind of dismissive don't you think? We live in an age of information now, its not like 30 years ago when the only information we got came from bias newspapers and news stations about what was happening in the world. Thats like saying you can't have an opinion on brexit because you don't live here?
It's the age of information, but you don't show any knowledge of how it works. There is nothing wrong with admitting that, nor someone acknowledging that it seems that way, as was the case here.
Let's put it this way, Munch. It's getting so bad here with far right conservatives taking control, that I'm agreeing with Shiranu more.
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QuoteI would do, but it feels pointless to weigh in more heavily on it, since your own opinion is so bias anyway it wouldn't matter what facts are drawn up. ;)
So you rather be ignorant to smite me than learn about a subject because it is both globally relevant and just interesting?
I don't think that stab at me has as much barb as you thought. But either way, the SC issue is explained above, if you are so inclined to learn about it, and it has nothing to do with bias towards anyone.
Edit: Just realised you quoted that from said post. Wow. I knew when I was writing it I shouldn't have bothered.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 05:30:16 PM
Let's put it this way, Munch. It's getting so bad here with far right conservatives taking control, that I'm agreeing with Shiranu more.
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thats kinda scary tbh.
But serious now, obviously you've reason to be concerned, but given the climate america has to it, this was a certainy that it was gonna happen eventually, two party systems will swing back and forth. My mums got a friend from California, older gay guy she made friends with online, and he's deeply concerned about the way things are going, I haven't really had a chance to discuss his political side of things or feelings about both sides of this, but I'm certain he feels the same way, and my heart goes out to him,
I'm old enough to have lived though labour and conservative government back and forth, and I've seen the best and worst of it. On the ground level, labour was always appearing to be more for the everyday man, while the conservatives were in for the elite, business practices, so from the little guys pov, labour had it better. But after Tony Blair, the status of the labour party got heavily damaged by him so much, that the conservatives have been leading in the polls here since his day.
Now where it stands today, rights and regulations passed here in the uk that I'd say have been the most progressive its been in years, and this was under a conservative rule, which well having the kind of stuff you expect from a conservative government, we still came ahead under what you can consider to be the party that you'd expect to draw things back.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/six-ways-in-which-the-conservatives-became-britains-true-progressives/
Not to say I'd ever be a voting conservative, it just surprised me how inspite of how things were in the past with this current political party, it showed a level of stability most people didn't expect (many saying cameron, despite his dodgy misgivings, was more left leaning anyway).
Now, to say I don't have a clue (like some here *ahem*) about how the political system works in other countries, I feel i know more then expected, given one of my friends is half american, with american family, yet lives in denmark, yet still voted for hillary (duel citizenship). We often have discussions about the events happening in america right now, the unrest, what can be expected from it based on history, and the old notion of those not learning from history are doomed to repeat it.
I don't really need a deep understanding of the workings of a political system of regulations, I simply have to observe events as they happen, and since I am living outside of america I can look at these events in more of an unbias pov, same as you guys can look at the brexit from the same angle, since it wouldn't effect you.
On trump, I think he's repugnant, and the men he has around him equally the same. He's a swindler, a liar, an easily trigger verging on sociopath, and he will do some damage to america on the ground level. But that might just work out for the better, because with the way the political system works where you are, you sometimes need to crawl though a river of shit to get free.
That said, because of the kind of creature trump is, this also brought to the front the worst side of left too, I won't go back into it, but lets just say a lot of events lately only helped trumps standing where he is, unfortunate, but true.
Now to Shiranu, yes, I knew the supreme court doesn't make laws, just interpreting them. That said establishing a set of rules and regulations based on executive orders is the mandate of any president, within the legal system, and from what i've seen so far it can be overturned by judges across the land, meaning there is more of a defense system in place to block and uphold standards within the american system.
Trump is more then likely now learning he isn't all powerful, so that should give people some reassurance that he can only go so far with what orders he makes. Also do you honestly believe he will win a second term in office, allowing him to elect another judge?
Munch, what I pointed out was not just simply an issue of ignorance, it's also an issue of direct interest. In no way though, was it an insult. You, because of your location, are 1- not equipped with the understanding of what exactly is going on in this country to the point that we are and 2- are not directly affected by it, so your priority is more in line with a recreational interest at best. Similarly to how brexit, while it does indirectly affect us in the U.S. does not directly affect us and we have less of a focus than you did. I don't even know if Brexit is a good comparison to Trump's regime and the far right that took control of our government, but it's the closest I can think of.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 12, 2017, 05:46:47 PM
So you rather be ignorant to smite me than learn about a subject because it is both globally relevant and just interesting?
I don't think that stab at me has as much barb as you thought. But either way, the SC issue is explained above, if you are so inclined to learn about it, and it has nothing to do with bias towards anyone.
Edit: Just realised you quoted that from said post. Wow. I knew when I was writing it I shouldn't have bothered.
Its like said, I'm just an outsider looking in, I don't live in america, so I can only get a pov from those living there.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 06:09:40 PM
Munch, what I pointed out was not just simply an issue of ignorance, it's also an issue of direct interest. In no way though, was it an insult. You, because of your location, are 1- not equipped with the understanding of what exactly is going on in this country to the point that we are and 2- are not directly affected by it, so your priority is more in line with a recreational interest at best. Similarly to how brexit, while it does indirectly affect us in the U.S. does not directly affect us and we have less of a focus than you did. I don't even know if Brexit is a good comparison to Trump's regime and the far right that took control of our government, but it's the closest I can think of.
Its more on the level that we can look at both events and give our perspective on it, you don't have to live in a country to agree or disagree with decisions made in that country. You guys over the pond can agree or disagree with brexit, I can agree and disagee with whatever your current government decides. However much like how brexit would indirectly effect things like oversea trading, likewise something like trump effects things on a larger scale, since imagine if he decided to go after america run businesses online, youtube, google, ebay, amazon, smaller independent sites and businesses, on a global scale its not unfounded to think these things coming under threat.
And then, theres the issue of war, remembering the bush era gives a fine example of how the leading government in one country effects things in another, its still a parody today of how bush had blair on a lead, and the british forces were doing whatever orders came from over there, so it does effect things across here on that level.
The point is that whether you agree or disagree with it, the level of interest you or anyone has, combined with a lack of knowledge of how the government functions has an effect on one's opinion.
You may say the stakes aren't that high, because of reason x, y, and z, but in reality even if something was unconstitutional, it could be put in to effect because of how much power this regime has. The checks and balances that are supposed to be in place and, for the most part have been in place, for better or worse even in the Obama administration, as mentioned... aren't in place right now, even if "technically" they are. The checks and balances are.... off balance.
QuoteThat said establishing a set of rules and regulations based on executive orders is the mandate of any president, within the legal system, and from what i've seen so far it can be overturned by judges across the land, meaning there is more of a defense system in place to block and uphold standards within the american system.
It can, the problem is the Supreme Court's opinion reigns above all of them. So even if at the state levels you have judges willing to question it, and even shut it down for awhile, the federal government can either just change a few words in the law and re-institute it, or take it to the Supreme Court who get's the final say.
There is a check and balance in that it can be temporary slowed down, but no check or balance for, if it is really terrible, actually stopping it for good. And that swings both ways; sometimes it's great to have these checks and balances and sometimes it really sucks when something good is trying to be done and it's blocked.
As for American culture; I don't think even Americans can say they are anything more than an outside observer. I think Europeans and Americans as well sometimes don't understand just how big and diverse America is. We have several states larger than most European countries, and regions with some similar cultures larger than European countries as well. I live in one of those states (Texas), and even here it's like living in at least four countries, with each region of those countries having extreme variation in culture as well.
I think "American culture" is a huge misconception, because even at it's most basic level... you still have a huge gulf between North East Coast, Southern, Midwestern, Texan, South West and West Coast cultures, each one being extremely different politically, economically, socially, even in terms of what language (or languages) we speak. Unfortunately the way the system is set up, several of the one's that are the worst off in terms of economics and education are also the ones with the most power at an electoral level, while the states that contribute the most to the union are starting to feel more and more irrelevant when their popular vote is silenced and our money goes towards shit we absolutely disagree with and having laws enforced on us we don't want.
I realise this is an issue for European countries as well, but just... not at the scale we have it. The United States is exactly what it's name says... a union of States (that could practically be countries) all trying to work together. But like countries in Europe, they don't always think the same way.
Edit: I'll also admit, I kinda lost my train of thought there other than just "American" culture seems to be more and more in a state of flux, but it's less "American vs American" than it is, "Region A vs Region B vs Region C vs Region D vs Region E..." and that this is something that has been growing for decades now. It wasn't all that long ago that we had an "A vs B" culture conflict, and it seems to ebb and flow... and everytime it does, shit tends to get really bad in one way or another. And I say that living on the side of, and in the culture, of the people who tend to fuck shit up (the south/midwest/rural).
Honestly, given the size and scale of america, its system seems pretty buggered up when as you say the scale of it and diverse nature of such a large place all comes down to the choices of a small group of people pushing out laws and orders across that expanse. i've looked into the contrasts between states on the east coast, west coast, the southern states, and by state, it looks like contrasts between european countries. Now obviously with europe each country has its own rules, but has certain standards and negotiations brought across by the european court, but overall it doesn't effect each individual countries on the ground level quite as much as washington effects the states, at least thats what many online have said.
btw I wasn't saying that the brexit issue was on scale with whats happening in america right now, it was more the example of current events overseas.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 01:45:21 PM
Satanists don't sacrifice children. They are atheist trolls. They don't even believe in Satan.
See the ;-) ... I wasn't being literal. But there are Satanists in Florida who are pushing back. I wish them well, hope the moralizers get to eat their own poo.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 12, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Laws are only effective when the people in power want to enforce and obey them. Don't forget that its not just Trump... every major part of the govt (Senate, House, Pres and Supreme) now have a majority that all think somewhat the same. Who's to call them out on breaking the law? Lower courts? Just keep on taking it higher until someone agrees with you, or just slightly reword and reinstitute the law like they are saying they will do.
The government, without the checks and balances, is above the law.
Read Jefferson. The only balance against a wild government, is an educated and political active demos.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on February 12, 2017, 04:51:57 PM
Uhh. Part of the reason so many bad, nasty things didn't happen was because Obama has more of a conscience than Trump.
But even if we take the political bias out of it, most of the things he tried to get done was blocked by republicans. Democrats did not dominate the 3 branches during his terms.
False ... see 2009-2010 ... hence ACA. But are you saying Obama is powerless, unless he packs the SCOTUS, like FDR tried to do?
Quote from: Munch on February 12, 2017, 05:25:51 PM
Thats seems kind of dismissive don't you think? We live in an age of information now, its not like 30 years ago when the only information we got came from bias newspapers and news stations about what was happening in the world. Thats like saying you can't have an opinion on brexit because you don't live here?
I would do, but it feels pointless to weigh in more heavily on it, since your own opinion is so bias anyway it wouldn't matter what facts are drawn up. ;)
Don't worry, I find the British system to be mysterious. In prior decades, before people could easily move around, regionalisms (As Shirano mentioned) would be more serious. Today we have E people in the W, and N people in the S and vice versa. It is harder to crystalize a rebellion than in Lincoln's day. Meanwhile Apple CEO just came out in favor of ending free speech (only "catholic" sources of news should be allowed, comrade Tim Cook said). Inquisition time ... and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition (SNL meme).