An interesting poll out of Europe, taken before Trump put in his Immigration EO.
[QUOTE from article]They suggest that public opposition to any further migration from predominantly Muslim states is by no means confined to Trump’s electorate in the US but is fairly widespread.
... Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.[/QUOTE]
https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration
So... because it's popular, it's right?
It could be 99% approval rating, but that doesn't mean that it is either ethical or logical.
It doesn't make it right it just shows the view point of a particular population.
On the other hand we can't just act like everything is hunky dory and let just any old muslim from the middle east into our country. I'm sorry but they don't have a good track record.
I'm not saying don't take any one at all, but maybe take immigrants who are moving for valid reasons such as to escape abuse.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 07, 2017, 10:40:30 PM
So... because it's popular, it's right?
It could be 99% approval rating, but that doesn't mean that it is either ethical or logical.
Only in a democracy. But you agree with me, it should be a dictatorship by the Brights, like Soros.
Quote from: doorknob on February 08, 2017, 01:20:56 AM
It doesn't make it right it just shows the view point of a particular population.
On the other hand we can't just act like everything is hunky dory and let just any old muslim from the middle east into our country. I'm sorry but they don't have a good track record.
I'm not saying don't take any one at all, but maybe take immigrants who are moving for valid reasons such as to escape abuse.
Ah ... but poverty is abuse, so let all poor people move in. Hope you have room for all the fakirs in India ;-)
Quote from: Shiranu on February 07, 2017, 10:40:30 PM
So... because it's popular, it's right?
It could be 99% approval rating, but that doesn't mean that it is either ethical or logical.
See.. you are so entrenched in your opinion on ethical/logical that you can't separate Politics and Government from Philosophy(yours).
Below the graph is a broader breakdown. It is every single age, edu level, and geographic - the majority. Not one single area reverses the popular opinion on muslim immigration.
Quote from: chill98 on February 08, 2017, 06:08:28 AM
See.. you are so entrenched in your opinion on ethical/logical that you can't separate Politics and Government from Philosophy(yours).
Below the graph is a broader breakdown. It is every single age, edu level, and geographic - the majority. Not one single area reverses the popular opinion on muslim immigration.
Right. So again, just because something is popular doesn't make it ethical or logical.
When it comes to people's actual lives, I think sticking to morals is more important than playing popularity games. I find it odd for an atheist to be saying, "Forget what is moral or logical, just go with what everyone else thinks!", don't you?
55%? Sounds like the left is out of touch with the right, but I don't think 45/55% split is noteworthy. Nor would it have anything to do with my opinions on the matter.
Quote from: SGOS on February 08, 2017, 10:18:12 AM
55%? Sounds like the left is out of touch with the right, but I don't think 45/55% split is noteworthy. Nor would it have anything to do with my opinions on the matter.
Well you would be right if it was actually a 55/45 split. Maybe you should read the article.
Or you could have just read the last line in the OP:
... Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and
20% disagreedIt was 55/20.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 08, 2017, 07:24:26 AM
Right. So again, just because something is popular doesn't make it ethical or logical.
When it comes to people's actual lives, I think sticking to morals is more important than playing popularity games. I find it odd for an atheist to be saying, "Forget what is moral or logical, just go with what everyone else thinks!", don't you?
Again, you would make a good Catholic monk. You have some dictator telling you the absolute moral vs immoral thing, and you have to obey. No democracy in the Catholic Church. Now if the Pope would just come out a Che Guevara ... you would be unable to resist ;-) Unfortunately the Catholic Church suppressed liberation theology ... violently.
Quote from: chill98 on February 08, 2017, 05:35:57 PM
Well you would be right if it was actually a 55/45 split. Maybe you should read the article.
Or you could have just read the last line in the OP:
... Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed
It was 55/20.
Yes, advocates of either end ... always claim 100% of the middle group.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 08, 2017, 07:24:26 AM
Right. So again, just because something is popular doesn't make it ethical or logical.
When it comes to people's actual lives, I think sticking to morals is more important than playing popularity games. I find it odd for an atheist to be saying, "Forget what is moral or logical, just go with what everyone else thinks!", don't you?
What makes you think the 55% are not sticking to their morals/ethics? And there is nothing illogical about a position of reduced immigration from a region at war with your own values.
And lets get real here. You think its 'odd' no matter who it is if they don't agree with your ideas regardless of their atheism. Thats how biased you are.
You would make an excellent catholic monk; the pitiful thing is, you have no idea why.
QuoteWhat makes you think the 55% are not sticking to their morals/ethics?
Nothing does, nor have I ever implied I thought that way.
QuoteAnd there is nothing illogical about a position of reduced immigration from a region at war with your own values.
If you can prove you can pay taxes and follow our laws, the entire idea that you have to be approved to move here is illogical. The overwhelming majority of immigrants are not problem causers, so yes... the idea of reducing immigration from any region IS illogical.
QuoteAnd lets get real here. You think its 'odd' no matter who it is if they don't agree with your ideas regardless of their atheism.
Yes, I find it odd that people think any one from the Middle East is a potential threat to their way of life who is going to institute Sharia law and detonate a car bomb in your backyard because there is simply no evidence that is true. What you said also does not actually address what I said, which is that you are telling me that because the majority think one way, I should therefor think that way as well.
QuoteYou would make an excellent catholic monk; the pitiful thing is, you have no idea why.
Please don't copy Bauruch if you don't actually have a clue what he is talking about. In reference to what he said, it actually makes sense. For you, it just sounds fucking stupid.
Shiranu, seems anyone who disagrees with you is someone who "doesn't know what their talking about" these days. Funny how your the only correct one, must be lonely.
Quote from: chill98 on February 08, 2017, 05:35:57 PM
Well you would be right if it was actually a 55/45 split. Maybe you should read the article.
Or you could have just read the last line in the OP:
... Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed
It was 55/20.
No, the split is 55/45. You are breaking the group who is not in agreement with you into two separate categories, making a big deal out of the 25% that neither agree or disagree, and thereby marginalizing them as the excluded middle. It's a statistical fallacy, because by definition, that 25% do not agree with you, while the other 20% outright oppose you. The fact that some of them may not disagree is functionally irrelevant, because none of them agree with you.
I realize you didn't fuck with the statistics to create this fallacy. You just fell prey to it.
As other objectors have pointed out, it's comforting to be in the majority, but it has no bearing on the accuracy of the conclusion. So even if the poll puts you in a group with a 10% lead (or a 25% lead if you prefer), it doesn't make your position more moral or even more accurate.
Having said this, I still give weight to your position. Europeans may have a better grip on the Islamic threat, because they have seen more of its effects during the most recent onslaught. Or they may be reacting out of exaggerated fear. I am sympathetic, however. Some countries in Europe have been enjoying the freedom and advantages of a secular society much more than the US for many years. Now they are in jeopardy of moving closer to the US or even ending up with less secularism than we have.
This saddens me. I don't think loss of freedom is good for any society, and any religion which harbors large numbers of fanatics, is going to impact it's environment negatively IMO.
Quote from: Munch on February 09, 2017, 07:41:38 AM
Shiranu, seems anyone who disagrees with you is someone who "doesn't know what their talking about" these days. Funny how your the only correct one, must be lonely.
Not really, no. It's just a few of you.
And sorry for not changing my opinions just for the trivial reason of wanting you to like me?
Quote from: Shiranu on February 09, 2017, 08:53:17 AM
Not really, no. It's just a few of you.
And sorry for not changing my opinions just for the trivial reason of wanting you to like me?
I like you anyway ;-)
Quote from: Shiranu on February 09, 2017, 08:53:17 AM
Not really, no. It's just a few of you.
And sorry for not changing my opinions just for the trivial reason of wanting you to like me?
I've never disliked you, its only certain things you've said that I'm against and disagree with. I'm not trying to change your opinion either, but am trying to lay out the problems I have with certain things you've said.
Its kind of like how I use to be subscribed to steve shives, he use to make interesting videos back in the day, and I found it informative. however, over the years, steven started to make an echo chamber around what be believed, to the point that anyone with even the smallest differing of opinion to his, he blocked them, blacklisted them, and kicked subs from his channel for disagreeing with him, he became someone who didn't like objection to his thoughts, and he lost a lot of people who saw him for what he had become.
I'm someone who because of what brought me to realize the bullshit that religion makes people into, the cult status of it, I now look at all religions in the same way, while you will get good people who happen to follow these cultist ideals, they are still things that can make people loose any sense of reason, logic and worst, from being analytical to such notions that unless you follow it to the letter, your somehow worse for it. Thats honestly a terrifying concept to me, that people can pull you in so deeply into a group mindset, that you can't even analysis it or criticize it.
and I'm sorry to say, modern third way feminism has the same problems religions have, in it is a hive mind where any criticism of it gets meet with the same vitriol as a religious group would to their beliefs. Theres good that can come from it, and I know thats what you want from those ideals, but it isn't worth letting go of reasonable analysis of what you believe in, simple because there are ideas in that group you happen to adhere to.
Trump is an asshole, yes, I can't stand the guy, but same time, the womens march was headed by an islamic preacher and a convicted murderer, so both sides of that whole thing was a mess. Milo Yiannopoulos follows a political system that is counter to his own lifestyle, so what he preaches is bullshit, but same time those who used him presence as an reason to burn down businesses and attack anyone on the other side of their political belief are jusr as bad, worse even, because the guy has never resorted to violence to get his thoughts out there.
Rant over, but the point is Shi, I don't dislike you, I only criticize certain things you defend adamantly, because since you being an atheist yourself know how off religion can be with twisting people and their free thought, I believe your able to see and analysis the same thing in any group think, regardless what it claims to be.
Quote from: SGOS on February 09, 2017, 08:33:44 AM
No, the split is 55/45. You are breaking the group who is not in agreement with you into two separate categories, making a big deal out of the 25% that neither agree or disagree, and thereby marginalizing them as the excluded middle. It's a statistical fallacy, because by definition, that 25% do not agree with you, while the other 20% outright oppose you. The fact that some of them may not disagree is functionally irrelevant, because none of them agree with you.
First its not my survey. I posted exactly what the survey authors posted.
Its not my fallacy, its yours. Statistically speaking, you toss out the Don't Care/Don't Answer and work with what you get. It works both ways. The 25% does not agree with the No percentage either.
55/20 is more accurate.
For every 1 who said no, 2.5 said yes.
Nice sjw move assigning the *I don't give a shit* portion to the *excluded middle* ever-the-victim of some overbearing pollster.
But thats not your quarrel with the opinion of Europeans as revealed here:
Quoteit doesn't make your position more moral or even more accurate.
I didn't bring morality into the discussion. I found the poll to be very interesting being as I had been under the impression that the citizenry of the EU was more open to this influx. Additionally, I felt it important to distinguish the poll was taken BEFORE Trumps EO as to imply his action wasn't an influence on the results.
This is probably the most surprising result:
Secondary and Below 59 26 15
Post-Secondary 55 25 20
UG & PG Degree
48 24
27 This is the one section I really thought would tip the other way. Not quite the 2:1 ratio but surprisingly broad considering what I have been lead to believe about the general opinion of the higher educated.
Unfortunately, if there are 2 million refugees in Europe, and only 10% of them are criminal, then that is a increase in the criminal population by 200,000. Not insignificant. I think that is a fair estimate for any population, 10% criminal. This is why the tiny number of police are always overwhelmed.
Quote from: chill98 on February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
First its not my survey. I posted exactly what the survey authors posted.
Yes, I already gave you that out in a previous post.
Quote from: chill98 on February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
Its not my fallacy, its yours. Statistically speaking, you toss out the Don't Care/Don't Answer and work with what you get. It works both ways. The 25% does not agree with the No percentage either.
So the excluded middle works only comes into play when it supports your opinion. Otherwise, it doesn't count? How convenient for you.
Quote from: chill98 on February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
55/20 is more accurate.
For every 1 who said no, 2.5 said yes.
Alternatively for every 1 who said no, .81 disagrees with you.
Quote from: chill98 on February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
Nice sjw move assigning the *I don't give a shit* portion to the *excluded middle* ever-the-victim of some overbearing pollster.
Hey, you would still "win" the poll, and you do even without the spin. But your wasting your time trying to shame me with an sjw label. I'm already solidly in the *don't give a shit category*, and refuse to be ignored or marginalized on those grounds. *Not giving a shit* hardly warrants an sjw label. It just seems to bother you that I'm not in a state joy that the poll indicates the left is out of touch with... Well, "your view."
Quote from: chill98 on February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
I found the poll to be very interesting being as I had been under the impression that the citizenry of the EU was more open to this influx. Additionally, I felt it important to distinguish the poll was taken BEFORE Trumps EO as to imply his action wasn't an influence on the results.
It's not surprising to me. Anyone whose culture in inundated by an incompatible culture, is bound to feel like that.
Quote from: chill98 on February 09, 2017, 07:15:11 PM
This is probably the most surprising result:... considering what I have been lead to believe about the general opinion of the higher educated.
I think a better word would be "ironic," but not surprising. I've been chided by well educated Europeans criticizing US immigration policies and border control as isolationist, protectionist, and culturally xenophobic, and it has always perplexed me, since it's the right of any sovereign nation. You can't just move into Canada, without meeting the qualifications and providing evidence that you can make a positive contribution. I started hearing those criticisms from some Europeans 20 years ago, when immigration started to show up as a topic on the US political radar.
I was told by one world traveler long ago that Muslim resentment did exist in Europe, "but no one would ever say that out loud." (His quote). I am sympathetic to Europe's situation, however. I don't get any particular joy in seeing European culture lost even if Europeans might be critical of US sentiments about it's own immigration policies.
"IN 2013, 990,553 VISAS WERE ISSUED FOR PERMANENT RESIDENCE"
Yes, America is isolationist, racist and should be exterminated. Please compare Japan Inc.
Or maybe Europeans are assholes. Maybe the illegal refugees will exterminate them?
Here is a link to a good analysis of the Left, over the last three generations ...
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/richard-rorty-liberalism-vietnam-donald-trump-obama
Where the Left made a wrong turn in the 60s (as a cat's paw of the Soviets and Cubans) which has continued down to today, with only Bernie representing the Old Left. Except it doesn't mention the "controlled opposition" which were the Clintons and Obamas.
The new Marxism is about North-South war, instead of East-West war, but both were led by Marxists.
Quote from: Baruch on February 10, 2017, 06:26:14 PM
Here is a link to a good analysis of the Left, over the last three generations ...
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/richard-rorty-liberalism-vietnam-donald-trump-obama
Where the Left made a wrong turn in the 60s (as a cat's paw of the Soviets and Cubans) which has continued down to today, with only Bernie representing the Old Left. Except it doesn't mention the "controlled opposition" which were the Clintons and Obamas.
He speaks in pretty general terms, and doesn't spend much time on the presidents. Clinton could have been discussed, and of course Obama was unknown at that time. But I got the impression he was talking about broader populist agendas, which don't seem to capture the imaginations of presidents or politicians, except that they talk about these agendas during campaigns, and then it's off to the bank, and dinner with their friends. Politics is pretty corrupt, and seems to come before the national interest.
Every time there is a change in administration, there are articles that attempt to explain why. In this case, someone got a hold of something that sounded like a prophecy, and pointed to it. With so many people writing this kind of stuff, someone is bound to say something that turns out to seem right. But the article was pretty vague about the specifics, I thought.
Quote from: SGOS on February 10, 2017, 07:38:17 AM
Yes, I already gave you that out in a previous post.
Aw bs. You assigned to me a position that belonged to the originators of the poll you glanced over. Gave me an out? Your mis-characterization of the data is your folly alone.
Quote from: SGOS on February 10, 2017, 07:38:17 AM
So the excluded middle works only comes into play when it supports your opinion. Otherwise, it doesn't count? How convenient for you.
Those who don't know excluded themselves. Not much different from excluding the registered democrats who chose to stay home rather than vote for Clinton or Trump. Or filling in the blanks of ballots when the voter left it blank. The undecideds have chosen to let others decide for them.
Quote from: SGOS on February 10, 2017, 07:38:17 AM
Alternatively for every 1 who said no, .81 disagrees with you.
Nuff said.
55% YES
25% Idunno = 0 Not a yes, not a no. Neutral. Can't say what the correct answer is.
20% NO
Alternatively by using your statistical methodology, it would be just as 'logical' to assign the 25% to the 55% being as they did not agree with the NO position.
80% think something needs to be done about immigration from muslim countries.
But there would have been much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Quote from: SGOS
Hey, you would still "win" the poll, and you do even without the spin. But your wasting your time trying to shame me with an sjw label. I'm already solidly in the *don't give a shit category*, and refuse to be ignored or marginalized on those grounds. *Not giving a shit* hardly warrants an sjw label. It just seems to bother you that I'm not in a state joy that the poll indicates the left is out of touch with... Well, "your view."
You marginalize yourself opting not to position yourself.
... must be an agnostic....
And no, what bothers me is the upside down world of the leftist logic.
Quote from: SGOS
You are breaking the group who is not in agreement with you into two separate categories, making a big deal out of the 25% that neither agree or disagree, and thereby marginalizing them as the excluded middle. It's a statistical fallacy, because by definition, that 25% do not agree with you, while the other 20% outright oppose you.
The fact that some of them may not disagree is functionally irrelevant, because none of them agree with you.
I made no deal out of the 25% who did not position themselves. You did in a blatant attempt to marginalize the 55% who absolutely have a position; most likely due to an internal opinion all are created equal and the poll itself grates against what you want to believe is just vs the reality of muslim extremism.
Rather than discussing the poll on its own merits, it became a personal objection to what you perceive my position to be.
This is standard left/right extremes attack method regardless of whatever issue is being discussed.
Quote from: chill98 on February 10, 2017, 08:54:56 PM
What bothers me is the upside down world of the leftist logic.
You just don't like liberals. You started this thread to claim the left is out touch so you could gloat about your European poll.
Quote from: chill98 on February 10, 2017, 08:54:56 PM
Rather than discussing the poll on its own merits, it became a personal objection to what you perceive my position to be.
Left or right, 45% of Europeans don't agree with you. But you did well, you got a 55%. That's better than half. Everyone is impressed. Go give yourself a pat on the back.
(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2012/02/2-16-12-C-1.png)
So until just a few years ago, being against gays was okay because the majority agreed with it?
Trigger Warning!
Is the left losing it?
[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avb8cwOgVQ8[/spoiler]
Quote from: pr126 on February 11, 2017, 12:06:29 AM
Trigger Warning!
Is the left losing it?
[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avb8cwOgVQ8[/spoiler]
That one, by P J Watson, was pretty funny. Any time a Brit says something, my ear says it's funny. He reminds me of Mauricio, very plugged into media.
Left anarchists and Left authoritarians have always been bad guys. Only the Left moderates like FDR were worth anything, and only in ... moderation. The sans-cullotes are still looking for their free bread and circuses.
Quote from: Shiranu on February 10, 2017, 11:38:48 PM
(http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2012/02/2-16-12-C-1.png)
So until just a few years ago, being against gays was okay because the majority agreed with it?
I don't agree with judging people in general, it is bigotry. Particularly judging people long dead, who can't defend themselves by cutting their opposition a new a-hole. I have never been against gay marriage, so I didn't have a "come to Jesus" moment over that. I would never keep anyone in chattel slavery (wage and debt slavery are even harder to minimize). If I were in the mood to condemn people, there would be plenty of targets.
well Europe is in a different situation than the U.S.. After all someone with a good pair of shoes, could walk to Europe from the middle east.
I think Hillary was a little out of touch with the people, but Hillary isn't the whole left. I think we should be looking at the issue from a completely different perspective than Democrat vs Republican. We can't forget that the U.S. is supposed to be a "Christian" nation. There are a lot of Christians in this country that consider muslims to be their arch-enemy. The idea of letting a muslim come to "our Christian" nation for any reason is completely unacceptable. Certain zenophobes; including Trump; would like to deport every muslim.
I guess you could say that in their effort to make equality of all religions the left forgot how zealous the right is about eliminating all non-Christians from our "Christian" nation.
I think it is worth noting that all religions have, have had, and will have violent and destructive fanatics. That one particular religion seems to have a majority of them at the moment is merely a happenstance of geopolitical history.
On the other hand, one particular religion IS the main extremist problem at the moment.
Quote from: SGOS on February 10, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
You just don't like liberals. You started this thread to claim the left is out touch so you could gloat about your European poll.
Left or right, 45% of Europeans don't agree with you. But you did well, you got a 55%. That's better than half. Everyone is impressed. Go give yourself a pat on the back.
Again, the inability to discuss a topic without making it about the person bringing up the topic.
That is such a basic (and easily avoided) fallacy.
Liberal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNy4ixHFrdI
There are Obama videos that are almost word for word. That is State of Union address, not election propaganda - though some would argue campaigning never ends.
The migrant issue in the EU is similar to the migrant issue along the US borders.
Brexit is not a symptom, it is honesty from the voters. The EU has several elections coming up in the next year and the liberal side is in a panic there, employing the same tactics they rail against, censorship, banning of free speech, and other jack-boot thug efforts to silence those who's ideas inspire the plebs.
Quote from: chill98 on February 11, 2017, 05:08:01 AM
Again, the inability to discuss a topic without making it about the person bringing up the topic.
That is such a basic (and easily avoided) fallacy.
Liberal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNy4ixHFrdI
There are Obama videos that are almost word for word. That is State of Union address, not election propaganda - though some would argue campaigning never ends.
The migrant issue in the EU is similar to the migrant issue along the US borders.
Brexit is not a symptom, it is honesty from the voters. The EU has several elections coming up in the next year and the liberal side is in a panic there, employing the same tactics they rail against, censorship, banning of free speech, and other jack-boot thug efforts to silence those who's ideas inspire the plebs.
There is legitimate border control (which I fully support) and there is repressive border control. Yesterday, a 35 year old woman whose only crime was to make up a SSN to get a job years ago was sent to Mexico. She hadn't lived there since she was 14. She hardly knows Mexico. She had a job and a family here. She was causing no harm. That is bad deportation.
Yes, I generally agree that if you are here illegally, you are illegal. I don't sugar-coat that. But surely we have better things to do than deport such a person.
Many people can say that their grandparents or such were casual immigrants. I'm not one of them. My ancestors are "American Perfect" in the sense that they came over on the Mayflower and such. Whoopee...
I say that if you are here, working, learned English,pay taxes etc, you can stay.
Throughout all of history, the people who have dared to leave their homelands in search of a better life have been the best people any country could ask for. In the past, "we" have despised the Irish, Italians, Germans, etc who came. Until they became "US". Can you tell the difference? Are they not "American"?
That woman's children are completely and utterly "American". If you met them casually, you would not notice a difference.
I say let their mother stay with them!
Quote from: chill98 on February 11, 2017, 05:08:01 AM
Again, the inability to discuss a topic without making it about the person bringing up the topic.
That is such a basic (and easily avoided) fallacy.
How is that different than introducing a topic as an excuse to denigrate a whole group? Again, it's OK when you do it, but a fallacy when someone else does it?
Quote from: SGOS on February 11, 2017, 06:49:13 AM
How is that different than introducing a topic as an excuse to denigrate a whole group? Again, it's OK when you do it, but a fallacy when someone else does it?
Nice...
Quote from: Cavebear on February 11, 2017, 06:23:53 AM
There is legitimate border control (which I fully support) and there is repressive border control. Yesterday, a 35 year old woman whose only crime was to make up a SSN to get a job years ago was sent to Mexico.
She has multiple crimes. Even if you cut her slack for being 14, at 18 she chose to stay. Being held to the same standards as citizens (ie ss# fraud), it is a serious crime. If she just made up the number, and it was actually attached to a living citizen, it could (and may have) caused many problems for the innocent citizen who now is flagged by the IRS for not claiming their entire wage, or finding themselves fighting bad credit (depending on outcome), all things we are not privileged to via your snippet of info.
Do I blame them overall for trying to buck the system? No. I understand that they are looking for a better life. I have worked with illegals in several jobs over the last 10 years. As individuals, sure they are nice people I have no quarrel with. HOWEVER, when discussing such things this is a 100% answer "no, I never tried to do it legal because its too hard".
Sorry but I have worked with plenty of legal immigrants who floated half way across the globe to achieve the american dream legally. My boss right now is a legal immigrant. Co-workers last year who were born in refugee camps and waited as family members made their way legally and worked to get the rest of the family here legally. Africans who fled brutal episodes of ethnic cleansing in their home countries and yet managed to come to the usa legally.
Enforcement of the law is the ONLY sure fire method to reduce illegal immigration. And that includes nailing employers twice as harshly for using undocumented workers. But in this case (based on the limited info) one cannot go after the employer because of the fraud on the womans part.
The buck has to stop somewhere.
Quote from: SGOS on February 11, 2017, 06:49:13 AM
How is that different than introducing a topic as an excuse to denigrate a whole group? Again, it's OK when you do it, but a fallacy when someone else does it?
Ah another fallacy to complete your day!
So, how out of touch do you think the left is?
I have sympathy. The law is a blunt instrument, it should be wielded selectively, not mechanically. The traffic cop is right ... if there was more than one speeder, he only needs to give a ticket to the one he stops, not to every speeder. The goal isn't a law & order hell hole, the goal is to make drivers think twice.
On the larger question however, I recognize that all people are criminals, and all this law & order crap is the larger Mafia (government) suppressing the smaller Mafias. I am a very small Mafia (one person, a mother in nursing home, two cats, and a handicapped daughter still living with her mom) ... so I keep a low profile. But I am under no illusions about "virtue signaling".
Quote from: chill98 on February 11, 2017, 07:38:06 AM
Ah another fallacy to complete your day!
So, how out of touch do you think the left is?
Reality intrudes on perfection. Most illegals are doing useful work. Try to get a citizen to pick your grapes. LOL!
Quote from: Cavebear on February 11, 2017, 09:15:24 AM
Reality intrudes on perfection. Most illegals are doing useful work. Try to get a citizen to pick your grapes. LOL!
No problem with a police state. They may even make you pick grapes. And execute you if you try to eat one without permission. Atheists simply don't believe that evil exists. Total computer control of everything everyone does is coming ... it is Caligula's wet dream. And IT people like me are going to make it happen.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 11, 2017, 09:15:24 AM
Reality intrudes on perfection. Most illegals are doing useful work. Try to get a citizen to pick your grapes. LOL!
I have worked as a migrant farm worker. All the people in that location were legal citizens. My current job is seasonal agriculture work and I really like my job. Every one there is a legal worker.
Beyond that, there are legal methods for migrant workers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-2A_Visa
But I think you are aware of that and attempting to support your position with a falsehood.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 11, 2017, 09:15:24 AM
Most illegals are doing useful work.
I don't know how much experience I've had with illegals, because I can't tell an illegal from a legal, but my limited experience in small communities with Muslims and Hindus is from professionals in healthcare, and operators of small businesses.
It might be different in big cities. I grew up in a suburb of Chicago, which was populated mostly by Czech immigrants when I lived there. The Czechs are now gone, and have been replaced by Latinos, but they aren't just driving around in their low riders selling drugs. They operate legitimate businesses, sometimes with only one person in house that speaks English. This is sometimes a minor inconvenience, but not insurmountable if I can at least conduct business with one staff member.
Having said that, I do have a bias that if you want to take advantage of what the US offers, you should seek citizenship. I've heard this if often difficult, but is that really too much to deal with? I only know one person that came here on a visa, but 6 months later had her citizenship taken care of. If Mexicans just want to visit, I don't have a problem with Mexicans coming here for a short stay, the same as US citizens cross into Canada or Mexico, with a brief stop at the border. I don't see the need for a visa if that's the case. Although if they come to work, some mechanism for paying income taxes, and meeting the requirements for employment that the rest of us deal with as conditions for employment is probably in order.
I honestly don't know how a big of a chaotic free-for-all we actually deal with. I hear it's a big problem, and will accept that, but I get a sense that it might be overblown or the government would actually deal with it. Trump may or may not be driven mostly by xenophobia, but if there is a problem, it should be dealt with.
Was Obama, the greatest deporter in history, a xenophobe?
“THUS DID A HANDFUL OF RAPACIOUS CITIZENS COME TO CONTROL ALL THAT WAS WORTH CONTROLLING IN AMERICA. THUS WAS THE SAVAGE AND STUPID AND ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE AND UNNECESSARY AND HUMORLESS AMERICAN CLASS SYSTEM CREATED. HONEST, INDUSTRIOUS, PEACEFUL CITIZENS WERE CLASSED AS BLOODSUCKERS, IF THEY ASKED TO BE PAID A LIVING WAGE. AND THEY SAW THAT PRAISE WAS RESERVED HENCEFORTH FOR THOSE WHO DEVISED MEANS OF GETTING PAID ENORMOUSLY FOR COMMITTING CRIMES.†KURT VONNEGUT
This is why you can't have nice things.
Bill Kristol, jive turkey for the upper classes:
Reporter: “Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?â€
Kristen: "Basically if you are in free society, a capitalist society, after two, three, four generations of hard work, everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled, whatever."
Cavebear agrees with this former Trotsky-ite, who morphed into a neocon.
Quote from: Baruch on February 11, 2017, 12:11:22 PM
Was Obama, the greatest deporter in history, a xenophobe?
“THUS DID A HANDFUL OF RAPACIOUS CITIZENS COME TO CONTROL ALL THAT WAS WORTH CONTROLLING IN AMERICA. THUS WAS THE SAVAGE AND STUPID AND ENTIRELY INAPPROPRIATE AND UNNECESSARY AND HUMORLESS AMERICAN CLASS SYSTEM CREATED....
Let them eat Grapes I say!!
Compassionate slavery maybe? I suppose it's for our own good.
Quote from: chill98 on February 11, 2017, 04:27:44 PM
Let them eat Grapes I say!!
Compassionate slavery maybe? I suppose it's for our own good.
Yes vote for the D party ... unprejudiced evil instead of prejudiced evil ... so much better!
Quote from: Baruch on February 11, 2017, 04:37:01 PM
Yes vote for the D party ... unprejudiced evil instead of prejudiced evil ... so much better!
Don't forget the uni-sex porta potty's the field workers use! Ahead of the curve they are! Oh wait, that wasn't about gender neutrality was it?
nevermind
Quote from: chill98 on February 11, 2017, 05:18:10 PM
Don't forget the uni-sex porta potty's the field workers use! Ahead of the curve they are! Oh wait, that wasn't about gender neutrality was it?
nevermind
No but I like the liberal proposal from the 80s, that police horses have to wear diapers ... and cowboys have to somehow keep a port-a-potty in their saddle bags ... one for them an and one for the horse ;-)
(http://www.americanthinker.com/images/bucket/2017-02/197913_5_.jpg)
Quote from: Baruch on February 11, 2017, 09:18:15 AM
No problem with a police state. They may even make you pick grapes. And execute you if you try to eat one without permission. Atheists simply don't believe that evil exists. Total computer control of everything everyone does is coming ... it is Caligula's wet dream. And IT people like me are going to make it happen.
Oh I think that evil exists alright. But caused by other humans, not deities.
trigger warning (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/02/the_handmaidens_of_hatred.html)
Quote from: pr126 on February 13, 2017, 11:33:40 AM
trigger warning (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/02/the_handmaidens_of_hatred.html)
Whew! Not so bad. I thought it would be a picture of Roy Rogers favorite horse, as taxidermed.
Quote from: Baruch on February 13, 2017, 12:45:17 PM
Whew! Not so bad. I thought it would be a picture of Roy Rogers favorite horse, as taxidermed.
(http://p.fod4.com/upload/aff3567c9abaad4b798a350dc1e1b1a3/lCWhED6uSiTcIsmGoWJg_Horse%20Thumbs%20Up.gif)
So a night mare, or a transvestite horsing around? ;-)
Nice humor above... But what IS evil? I don't think of it as theists do, from religious morals. I think of it more in terms of how humans treat each other.
https://youtu.be/0AU_Rb6z1wU
Quote from: pr126 on February 15, 2017, 06:01:51 AM
https://youtu.be/0AU_Rb6z1wU
Interesting picture. But what do YOU think? Can you use words?
Quote from: Cavebear on February 15, 2017, 07:08:55 AM
Interesting picture. But what do YOU think? Can you use words?
See ... you are a reader, like me. You articulate with the English alphabet, not with performance art. Some would prefer if Pr126 was more like Marcel Marceau.
Quote from: Baruch on February 15, 2017, 07:10:28 AM
See ... you are a reader, like me. You articulate with the English alphabet, not with performance art. Some would prefer if Pr126 was more like Marcel Marceau.
One of my favorite jokes is about a mime actually having a heart attack on a sidewalk and people standing around applauding... That should happen more often.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 15, 2017, 07:23:19 AM
One of my favorite jokes is about a mime actually having a heart attack on a sidewalk and people standing around applauding... That should happen more often.
My, you do have issues ;-( Maybe you can have a witch doctor help you, if only you could determine which one ;-))
Cavebear wrote:QuoteInteresting picture. But what do YOU think? Can you use words?
I think that the person in the mask is inarticulate and doesn't really know what she is "protesting" about.
Just wants to be a part of the "gang".
None of them can provide any coherent argument for their ideology, that is why the ad hominem.
All they have is hatred for the "other".
None of them have experienced communist rule or have any idea what it is.
Another example of the Marxist / communist indoctrination in the American campus.
How out of touch is the Left? Enough that they managed to lose the White House to Donald Duck.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on February 16, 2017, 12:56:22 AM
How out of touch is the Left? Enough that they managed to lose the White House to Donald Duck.
But the Left is Right, just like 1965. Gulf of Tonkin anyone? That LBJ, such a Leftist, killing Vietcong. Or Obama killing Libyans, Syrians and Yemenis.
Obama. That Nobel peace prize had to be earned.
He is in good company. Yasser Arafat. LOL.
Quote from: pr126 on February 16, 2017, 10:01:28 AM
Obama. That Nobel peace prize had to be earned.
He is in good company. Yasser Arafat. LOL.
Yes, just like Henry "death head" Kissinger.
figured since this was a few weeks ago it wasn't worth making a new thread on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3n640w_azk
This is what happens when this far left mentality is left to flourish without facts prevailing over their one sides views of reality. America is now suddenly being taken over by nazis according to these delightful people, fresh out of university and discovering the real world for the first time.
Quote from: Baruch on February 15, 2017, 01:34:16 PM
My, you do have issues ;-( Maybe you can have a witch doctor help you, if only you could determine which one ;-))
Perhaps if I listened to the 10 record set of Marcel Marceau's best acts...
Quote from: Cavebear on February 17, 2017, 02:59:41 AM
Perhaps if I listened to the 10 record set of Marcel Marceau's best acts...
Yes, the original LPs, not those crappy CDs ;-) Silent audiophile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hpXnVDMhcU
hold on john
i think there's something good on
i used to read books but ...
it could be the news
or some other amusement
or it could be reusable shows
felt like making a new thread, but might as well post it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHnjlQC6Puw
Same deal with Benedict Cumberbatch, all the money in the world, and owns several mansions, would like to see millions spent on low cost housing and the countryside dug up, so long as they own their plot of land that they have no interest in giving room and board for refugees.
Quote from: pr126 on February 15, 2017, 11:44:50 PM
Another example of the Marxist / communist indoctrination in the American campus.
Ja, kameraden, das ist verlicht!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4Byty8FR5Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8U26AJtdao
Now lets imagine all these people in the crowds are white, and calling for anyone who isn't british born can go burn in hell. Now I'm unconvinced something like that would get swept under the carpet, like this here has been.
The British monarchy, connected to the Rothschilds, the Vatican, the Bilderbergers, the House of Saud, the Illuminati etc ... and descended from Dracula ... move along, nothing to see here!
Quote from: Baruch on February 25, 2017, 01:32:20 PM
The British monarchy, connected to the Rothschilds, the Vatican, the Bilderbergers, the House of Saud, the Illuminati etc ... and descended from Dracula ... move along, nothing to see here!
That means I'm a descendant of vlad too, since I have ancestry going back to Eleanor or Aquitaine
Quote from: Munch on February 25, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
That means I'm a descendant of vlad too, since I have ancestry going back to Eleanor or Aquitaine
Wrong castle. The Dracula blood only entered the British Monarchy with the wife of King George V. You would have to be very recent royalty. My ancestry goes back to shared Welsh ancestors with the Tudors (female line), maybe a bastard child in the line of descent from Henry I, similarly nebulous line of descent (these are usually female children) from an ancestor of William the Conqueror, and possibly a female line of descent from Alfred the Great.
Eleanor? So you know how to French kiss? ;-)
Oh well, nevermind, guess I can't use my ancestry as an excuse to impale one of my bosses then, but I do find the story of Eleanor pretty awesome.
French kiss no but I can make french toast pretty good. And I make Crêpe, not pancakes.
Quote from: Munch on February 25, 2017, 04:46:05 PM
Oh well, nevermind, guess I can't use my ancestry as an excuse to impale one of my bosses then, but I do find the story of Eleanor pretty awesome.
French kiss no but I can make french toast pretty good. And I make Crêpe, not pancakes.
Sounds like you should still fear the sans culottes though ;-)
You don't get a star chamber (to secretly try your enemies) unless you are in theater, and have a star on the door of your dressing room!
Quote from: Baruch on February 25, 2017, 04:51:25 PM
Sounds like you should still fear the sans culottes though ;-)
You don't get a star chamber (to secretly try your enemies) unless you are in theater, and have a star on the door of your dressing room!
I've seen and shed tears for the stage production of les mis, I think I paid the family debt.
Quote from: Munch on February 25, 2017, 04:55:39 PM
I've seen and shed tears for the stage production of les mis, I think I paid the family debt.
Well I don't have to go around killing Englishmen, because I watched Lord of the Dance live. Riverdance only on TV. I can imagine Mr Flatley is stomping on English toes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB0f03DkDUs
Thats why I brought extra straight toe caps for my work boots.
Quote from: Munch on February 25, 2017, 05:31:40 PM
Thats why I brought extra straight toe caps for my work boots.
Mexican mens cowboy boots have extra long toes. That makes it easier to kick Anglos in the balls.
No, cowboys wear pointy-toed boots so they can get their feet out of the stirrups when they fall off a horse. It sucks to get stuck in the stirrups and get dragged away at high speed!
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 25, 2017, 05:37:15 PM
No, cowboys wear pointy-toed boots so they can get their feet out of the stirrups when they fall off a horse. It sucks to get stuck in the stirrups and get dragged away at high speed!
That is just what you want, if you are a Hollywood stuntman in a Western.
Yeah, but those aren't cowboys, are they?
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 25, 2017, 05:40:45 PM
Yeah, but those aren't cowboys, are they?
Some of the early ones actually were. And some of the early actors were too (Tom Mix). But that was before Hollywood became fake, all the way down ... Team America.
Quote from: Baruch on February 25, 2017, 07:13:35 PM
fake, all the way down
I can get a stetson in any truck stop, real leathers at a Harley store, fake leathers at Walmart. Its fun to be a fake cowbot sometimes
Quote from: Baruch on February 17, 2017, 05:03:03 AM
Yes, the original LPs, not those crappy CDs ;-) Silent audiophile.
The CDs are ALMOST as good, just a bit fewer in the high frequencies.
Apartheid? Segregation? (http://atlantablackstar.com/2017/02/24/university-michigan-students-demand-non-whites-space-social-justice-work-organizing/)
Social Justice indeed.
QuoteStudent activists at the University of Michigan are demanding that school officials provide them with a designated campus space solely “for Black students and students of color to organize and do social justice work.â€
The off-putting demand is one of several lodged by UM activist group Students4Justice, which has ramped up demonstrations over the past month in an effort to make school officials meet their demands, The College Fix reported. In a newly launched petition, the student group also took aim at university President Mark Schlissel, attacking his less-than-perfect leadership and failure to address concerns over diversity and inclusion on campus.
What is with all this hate whitey? Lead by white students?
Insanity by Marxist indoctrination.
Will they demand separate drinking fountains one for whites and one for colored?
https://youtu.be/M8CWX1zhhOY
Quote from: pr126 on February 26, 2017, 05:58:38 AM
Apartheid? Segregation? (http://atlantablackstar.com/2017/02/24/university-michigan-students-demand-non-whites-space-social-justice-work-organizing/)
Social Justice indeed.
What is with all this hate whitey? Lead by white students?
Insanity by Marxist indoctrination.
https://youtu.be/M8CWX1zhhOY
I don't agree with that either. Colleges especially should be exposures to all ideas, offensive or not. The "safe space" can only in your thoughtful and analytical mind.
If you aren't exposed to crazy ideas, you can't learn how to refute them.
They do not refute those crazy ideas. They come up with those crazy ideas themselves.
Promote them. Try to impliment them.
If you tell these students that this is a racist idea they will say no its not, it is social justice.
So was Jim Crow a social justice warrior?
QuoteColleges especially should be exposures to all ideas, offensive or not.
Oh yes. We see on campuses when someone with a differen idea tries to speak.
Have to be protected by bodyguards and make a run for it while the tolerant left trashes the campus.
Free speech is not allowed f it doesn't agree with them.
Quote from: pr126 on February 26, 2017, 06:16:36 AM
They do not refute those crazy ideas. They come up with those crazy ideas themselves.
Promote them. Try to impliment them.
If you tell these students that this is a racist idea they will say no its not, it is social justice.
So was Jim Crow a social justice warrior?
Oh yes. We see on campuses when someone with a differen idea tries to speak.
Have to be protected by bodyguards and make a run for it while the tolerant left trashes the campus.
Free speech is not allowed f it doesn't agree with them.
As I said, I disagree with the campus restrictions on free speech. Let your views be told, that rational people can laugh at them.
Then the college finance scam collapses ... as it soon will ... see student debt from 2009 onward ... the problem will solve itself.
Quote from: Baruch on February 26, 2017, 09:11:45 AM
Then the college finance scam collapses ... as it soon will ... see student debt from 2009 onward ... the problem will solve itself.
Neither my comment nor yours had anything to do with college finances. Do you have pre-written posts seeking a subject?
Quote from: Cavebear on February 26, 2017, 09:34:26 AM
Neither my comment nor yours had anything to do with college finances. Do you have pre-written posts seeking a subject?
I am from the future, but just a little in the future. I write a response before anyone puts out the post I am reacting to.
How will we have college demonstrations, when there are no colleges? Seems pretty obvious to me.
Cavebear wrote:QuoteAs I said, I disagree with the campus restrictions on free speech. Let your views be told, that rational people can laugh at them.
Your disagreement with the campus restrictions on free speech is irrelevant.
That may be your personal opinion.
It does not make any difference to the rest.
I regard the hard left hardly rational. In fact, bordering on the insane.
Brainwashed automatons.
My views?
Critical thinking and introspection is an alien concept in the education system.
Four years and tens of thousands of dollars are wasted to become a Marxist political agitators.
Unequipped to deal with the real world.
Now laugh away.
Talking about insanity, this is good for a laugh.
Seriously?
https://youtu.be/XUoM6oX93Nc
Hey guess what, free speech still lives! You're allowed, or should be allowed, to go to a street corner and say whatever the hell you want!
You know what you don't get for free? A platform for your speech. You know what you also are not free from? Consequences. If people protest you, or deny you a platform that no-one fucking owes you, that's a consequence. If I, a white man, go into the "hood" and shout the n word I'll get my shit kicked in. It's not pretty, but it's a consequence of my actions.
Next CPAC I'm gonna get on stage and talk about the joys of anal masturbation. If they deny me that platform they're obviously against free speech.
Nobody is denying your right to act stupid. But be prepared to be ridiculed for it.
Now if only those on the right would get that...but when they're denied a platform or criticized, suddenly it's "muh freeze peach". Fucking snowflakes.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on February 27, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
No problem there, Mr. Bunker.
So are you Archie or Jughead? ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on February 27, 2017, 06:37:42 AM
So are you Archie or Jughead? ;-)
I'm Lionel Jefferson.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on February 27, 2017, 07:33:27 AM
I'm Lionel Jefferson.
Not a cartoon character, just a jive turkey then?
Quote from: pr126 on February 27, 2017, 01:31:37 AM
Cavebear wrote:Your disagreement with the campus restrictions on free speech is irrelevant.
That may be your personal opinion.
It does not make any difference to the rest.
I regard the hard left hardly rational. In fact, bordering on the insane.
Brainwashed automatons.
My views?
Critical thinking and introspection is an alien concept in the education system.
Four years and tens of thousands of dollars are wasted to become a Marxist political agitators.
Unequipped to deal with the real world.
Now laugh away.
As a rational individual, I do...
Quote from: pr126 on February 27, 2017, 04:46:23 AM
Nobody is denying your right to act stupid. But be prepared to be ridiculed for it.
A problem with people on the Right is that they can't handle criticism. It seems like an offence against their deity, whom they seem to blindly worship (well, that's what faith IS, isn't it)? And then they get all bent out of shape like poor PR126...