Formal definitions of Christian aplogetics, ie, "a field of Christian theology that presents historical, reasoned, and evidential bases for Christianity, defending it against objections" (Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics)), are too polite to say so, but they usually take care to avoid including "the use of logic" in describing the methodology. There is good reason for this, because Christian apologies that claim to be logical always fail in the end, making them illogical by definition.
The more renowned of the apologists attempt to claim logic in their written commentary and in their televised oral debates by attempting to mask their fallacies by equivocation, moving of goalposts, and complicated roundabouts (http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm), but they all fail logically. The oral debates I believe are the most effective, because they happen in real time with a fast delivery, are complicated and wordy, and lend themselves to the masking of fallacies, while the written works lend themselves to more critical study and dissection.
The usual lightweights that show up in this forum never demonstrate the cunning of the established leaders in the field. They don't seem to even understand apologetics, if in fact, they are even familiar with the term. Nor do they seem to have any understanding of the most common objections to the doctrine they are defending. They stop off on a mission of enlightenment, shoot off some long debunked trope, and meet with a wall of well deserved skepticism. Our current example, Godmessenger, identifies himself with a nickname resembling Christ himself, but doesn't seem to have a clue about what he is doing.
We can compare the lightweights to the experts, but both sources have an uncanny resemblance to snake oil salesmen.
The fact that they have to rely only on arguments is rather telling.
Let's say I were trying to establish the truth of evolution and I argued that it has validity because billions of people believe it is so, or that it's important for society to believe it is so, or that Origin of the Species has a secret code that predicted 9/11. If I came to a scientific discussion with that, I'd be laughed out of the room.
The chew toys haven't been very chewy lately ;-(
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 27, 2017, 12:12:20 PM
The fact that they have to rely only on arguments is rather telling.
Let's say I were trying to establish the truth of evolution and I argued that it has validity because billions of people believe it is so, or that it's important for society to believe it is so, or that Origin of the Species has a secret code that predicted 9/11. If I came to a scientific discussion with that, I'd be laughed out of the room.
Well said, sir!
If evolution is true, what purpose do we have, why are we here? If this life here on earth is all we have, what separates us from the animals? Why don't we just kill the weak and take what we want?
Why should we work if this is all we have to look forward to, knowing that soon we will die? We should be living it up knowing we don't have to answer to anyone.
I submit to you that there is a God in heaven! We will all answer for what we have done and not done in this life on earth. There will be rewards for those who have done there best to live a moral life and help others along the way.
I Cor. 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
If evolution is true, what purpose do we have, why are we here?
Why assume we have a purpose and that there is a reason we are here? You snuck the answer into the question. This is called begging the question.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
If this life here on earth is all we have, what separates us from the animals?
You did it again. In addition, the second half of the question above is irrelevant to the first: "If a tiger has stripes, why invent the telephone?" As such, it makes no sense. You can't expect a coherent reply to gibberish.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
Why don't we just kill the weak and take what we want?
Sometimes we do.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
Why should we work if this is all we have to look forward to, knowing that soon we will die? We should be living it up knowing we don't have to answer to anyone.
Are you trying to bore me to death?
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
I submit to you that there is a God in heaven! We will all answer for what we have done and not done in this life on earth. There will be rewards for those who have done there best to live a moral life and help others along the way.
Prove it.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
I Cor. 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
No, I mean actually prove it.
Quote from: SGOS on January 27, 2017, 09:59:01 PM
Why assume we have a purpose and that there is a reason we are here? You snuck the answer into the question. This is called begging the question.
You did it again. In addition, the second half of the question above is irrelevant to the first: "If a tiger has stripes, why invent the telephone?" As such, it makes no sense. You can't expect a coherent reply to gibberish.
Sometimes we do.
Are you trying to bore me to death?
Prove it.
No, I mean actually prove it.
There will be no voice from heaven, no visions, no dreams, there is only His word which He places above His name, and the human conscience given to us all that bears His existence.
If that's not enough to seek God out, then there is no hope for you my friend.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 10:50:18 PM
There will be no voice from heaven, no visions, no dreams, there is only His word which He places above His name, and the human conscience given to us all that bears His existence.
If that's not enough to seek God out, then there is no hope for you my friend.
My, my my--you are s smug little theist, aren't you?
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 10:50:18 PM
There will be no voice from heaven, no visions, no dreams, there is only His word which He places above His name, and the human conscience given to us all that bears His existence.
If that's not enough to seek God out, then there is no hope for you my friend.
But that's the problem you see. I was raised in a Christian family, told all of the stories, and informed of God's alleged promises. Many of these started to sound hokey when I began to reason (around the age of six). And your above claim, "There will be no voice from heaven, no visions, no dreams, there is only His word which He places above His name, and the human conscience given to us all that bears His existence," isn't just hokey sounding. It's just poetic sounding incoherence. And stuff like that, including my family's instruction got even sillier as I reached my late teens. But still, I was informed of these mysteries by people I respected. But that was fallacy number one (arguments from authority, which have nothing to do with truth), although I didn't know this was a fallacy at the time. But almost everyone I knew believed there was a god, and that was the second big fallacy (the argument from numbers. Just because a lot of people believe it, doesn't make it true), and I had already learned this in school.
But Christians, and I'm sure you would agree, claim that the most powerful argument for God is experiencing him through personal revelation. "Now that's the ticket," I thought. With personal revelation, no logic or evidence is required. Personal revelation will make a believer out of the worst of the sinners, and I wanted to believe.
So I began a quest that lasted 30 years. I went to the family's house of god, but he apparently wasn't home, or maybe he hid in a closet when I showed up. I went to other people's houses of God, but he wasn't there either. Under the advice of a dear Christian woman, I prayed for enlightenment, but apparently no one was listening. I read the Bible, but that did not help. For one thing, the Bible gives absolutely atrocious advice on how to reason, but is loaded with lots of tips about how not to reason.
Now I will admit that as the years wore on, I began to try less and less, as the futility of useless pursuit has a tendency to have that effect on people who want to improve themselves.
So when someone like you shows up and starts parroting platitudes of the Bible, I find that offensive. You're trying to insult my intelligence with your ignorance, and I wish you would just mind your own business and fuck off.
Quote from: SGOS on January 28, 2017, 12:22:56 AM
But that's the problem you see. I was raised in a Christian family, told all of the stories, and informed of God's alleged promises. Many of these started to sound hokey when I began to reason (around the age of six). And your above claim, "There will be no voice from heaven, no visions, no dreams, there is only His word which He places above His name, and the human conscience given to us all that bears His existence," isn't just hokey sounding. It's just poetic sounding incoherence. And stuff like that, including my family's instruction got even sillier as I reached my late teens. But still, I was informed of these mysteries by people I respected. But that was fallacy number one (arguments from authority, which have nothing to do with truth), although I didn't know this was a fallacy at the time. But almost everyone I knew believed there was a god, and that was the second big fallacy (the argument from numbers. Just because a lot of people believe it, doesn't make it true), and I had already learned this in school.
But Christians, and I'm sure you would agree, claim that the most powerful argument for God is experiencing him through personal revelation. "Now that's the ticket," I thought. With personal revelation, no logic or evidence is required. Personal revelation will make a believer out of the worst of the sinners, and I wanted to believe.
So I began a quest that lasted 30 years. I went to the family's house of god, but he apparently wasn't home, or maybe he hid in a closet when I showed up. I went to other people's houses of God, but he wasn't there either. Under the advice of a dear Christian woman, I prayed for enlightenment, but apparently no one was listening. I read the Bible, but that did not help. For one thing, the Bible gives absolutely atrocious advice on how to reason, but is loaded with lots of tips about how not to reason.
Now I will admit that as the years wore on, I began to try less and less, as the futility of useless pursuit has a tendency to have that effect on people who want to improve themselves.
So when someone like you shows up and starts parroting platitudes of the Bible, I find that offensive. You're trying to insult my intelligence with your ignorance, and I wish you would just mind your own business and fuck off.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience in searching for God. I can state the very reason that happened, but I'm sure it will be met with obscenities.
There is no reasoning with the Lord if His word is rejected.
Heb. 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 10:50:18 PM
There will be no voice from heaven, no visions, no dreams, there is only His word which He places above His name, and the human conscience given to us all that bears His existence.
If that's not enough to seek God out, then there is no hope for you my friend.
I sat next to Jesus, in a dream just this night. He came down from the front, pulled up a chair next to me (I was on the left end of a row of people) and sat down to my left. Some kind of revival meeting. Kind of weird, he was asking us to thank the folks who did the physical work of preparing the meeting place. No sweat.
So do you believe my testimony? Not the first time I have met Jesus either. First time was one on one. The language was English, not Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek ... though that would be no impediment for dreams of this nature.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:43:03 AM
I'm sorry you had a bad experience in searching for God.
I can't say I'm sorry. I thought it needed to be done because a conclusion about God's existence, needs to be determined. If any of your claims are true, then belief or non-belief would have important consequences. Determining if God exists becomes the prime question. It must come first. Before I could except one shred of Christian philosophy, I had to answer that question first. I was compelled to know if he was actually there. There is no more important question in Christianity than that, for without his existence, every belief, prayer, promise, or devotion is nothing but a sham. All of your instructions to me are a worthless waste of time if God doesn't exist. If there is no way to know this, then there is no reason to attempt to describe him or assume he has a plan. If God really existed, you would know. He would leave traces if only in the form of irrefutable statistics that did not resemble chance.
The logical conclusion is that if he can't provide the things people say he provides, if he can't confer knowledge of himself to everyone who seeks (or even those who have no interest in seeking), then he must not exist.
Edit: Or at best he is irrelevant, because he does nothing that indicates his presence.
Quote from: SGOS on January 28, 2017, 08:39:50 AM
I can't say I'm sorry. I thought it needed to be done because a conclusion about God's existence, needs to be determined. If any of your claims are true, then belief or non-belief would have important consequences. Determining if God exists becomes the prime question. It must come first. Before I could except one shred of Christian philosophy, I had to answer that question first. I was compelled to know if he was actually there. There is no more important question in Christianity than that, for without his existence, every belief, prayer, promise, or devotion is nothing but a sham. All of your instructions to me are a worthless waste of time if God doesn't exist. If there is no way to know this, then there is no reason to attempt to describe him or assume he has a plan. If God really existed, you would know. He would leave traces if only in the form of irrefutable statistics that did not resemble chance.
The logical conclusion is that if he can't provide the things people say he provides, if he can't confer knowledge of himself to everyone who seeks (or even those who have no interest in seeking), then he must not exist.
Edit: Or at best he is irrelevant, because he does nothing that indicates his presence.
^This^ Very close to the very way I think.
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 28, 2017, 08:51:36 AM
^This^ Very close to the very way I think.
It seems like Christians jump over the prime question, and I could understand that. It's a troublesome question, even borderline annoying. It appears to me that people want to get on with the "good stuff," talking about how a god loves them, how they were created in the image of a god, how they will live forever, and no matter how prickish they act, it doesn't count, because they will always be forgiven.
I say it seems like they do ignore the prime question. Perhaps deep inside, they are more astute than I was. Perhaps they realized immediately that the question can never be answered. No that's probably wrong, because they do answer the question and insist that god exists as a matter of faith (they believe God exists because they believe God exists), and they are unable to see the fallacy of an existence based only on belief.
Even as a child, I was haunted by the question, however. I could not simply ignore it. I guess I was obsessed with needing to answer the question, preferably in the affirmative, but grudgingly willing to accept that it might not have an answer. My Baptist grandmother told me I would go to Hell if I so much as had a doubt about God's existence. Talk about fucked at the starting gate! Not knowing is a gentler word than doubt, but doubt can be the only response to not knowing. But then you go to Hell. You have to know, but you are not given the evidence required to know. Yeah, you're in an impossible predicament, and you're fucked. No god of love would do that to a mortal. A god that was a total dick might, but neither of those possibilities answers the question one way or another.
Wait! The Bible is God's word. The Bible is the evidence that God is real. But there is a logical problem. For the Bible to be real, God must be real. If God is not real, but the Bible still exists, then who wrote it and for what reason? Unfortunately, for sincere seekers we can infer some reasonable answers about where the Bible came from. Some of it is speculative, but some of it we actually can know, and that's a Hell of a shitload more than what we can actually know about a god's existence.
First, we know that it was written by men. These men were from ancient times, and were ignorant about almost everything. They had never heard of a dinosaur or a polar bear. They knew nothing of DNA. They thought the stars were little holes that let the light through a dome.
They wrote their ignorant speculations down with authority, and the crowds marveled. Maybe not right a way, but hundreds of years later, equally ignorant men found them in caves, and read them as best they could, and found they agreed with them. Stars were little holes to let the light through! Here it is in black and white, written by ancient ancestors, so it must be true, and man is still coming up with similar flawed conclusions today.
So is God real? Hmmm, maybe. Do I believe in one? No. There's just a big empty gap in my beliefs about that. But intuitively I'm going with non-existence. But the rules made up by ancient men, and even more modern ones like Pascal, demand a bet on this conundrum. OK then, I'm leaning toward non-existence. I'm going to bet "No." Now it might be a losing bet, but I promise it's an honest bet, so that's my bet. I could lie and bet "Yes on existence." But lying sends you to Hell.
I think I'm going to stop now and go read a comic book.
Quote from: Baruch on January 28, 2017, 03:45:33 AM
I sat next to Jesus, in a dream just this night. He came down from the front, pulled up a chair next to me (I was on the left end of a row of people) and sat down to my left. Some kind of revival meeting. Kind of weird, he was asking us to thank the folks who did the physical work of preparing the meeting place. No sweat.
So do you believe my testimony? Not the first time I have met Jesus either. First time was one on one. The language was English, not Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek ... though that would be no impediment for dreams of this nature.
No, I don't believe your testimony. We are called by faith not by sight.
John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
2Cor. 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Quote from: SGOS on January 28, 2017, 11:27:24 AM
It seems like Christians jump over the prime question, and I could understand that. It's a troublesome question, even borderline annoying. It appears to me that people want to get on with the "good stuff," talking about how a god loves them, how they were created in the image of a god, how they will live forever, and no matter how prickish they act, it doesn't count, because they will always be forgiven.
I say it seems like they do ignore the prime question. Perhaps deep inside, they are more astute than I was. Perhaps they realized immediately that the question can never be answered. No that's probably wrong, because they do answer the question and insist that god exists as a matter of faith (they believe God exists because they believe God exists), and they are unable to see the fallacy of an existence based only on belief.
Even as a child, I was haunted by the question, however. I could not simply ignore it. I guess I was obsessed with needing to answer the question, preferably in the affirmative, but grudgingly willing to accept that it might not have an answer. My Baptist grandmother told me I would go to Hell if I so much as had a doubt about God's existence. Talk about fucked at the starting gate! Not knowing is a gentler word than doubt, but doubt can be the only response to not knowing. But then you go to Hell. You have to know, but you are not given the evidence required to know. Yeah, you're in an impossible predicament, and you're fucked. No god of love would do that to a mortal. A god that was a total dick might, but neither of those possibilities answers the question one way or another.
Wait! The Bible is God's word. The Bible is the evidence that God is real. But there is a logical problem. For the Bible to be real, God must be real. If God is not real, but the Bible still exists, then who wrote it and for what reason? Unfortunately, for sincere seekers we can infer some reasonable answers about where the Bible came from. Some of it is speculative, but some of it we actually can know, and that's a Hell of a shitload more than what we can actually know about a god's existence.
First, we know that it was written by men. These men were from ancient times, and were ignorant about almost everything. They had never heard of a dinosaur or a polar bear. They knew nothing of DNA. They thought the stars were little holes that let the light through a dome.
They wrote their ignorant speculations down with authority, and the crowds marveled. Maybe not right a way, but hundreds of years later, equally ignorant men found them in caves, and read them as best they could, and found they agreed with them. Stars were little holes to let the light through! Here it is in black and white, written by ancient ancestors, so it must be true, and man is still coming up with similar flawed conclusions today.
So is God real? Hmmm, maybe. Do I believe in one? No. There's just a big empty gap in my beliefs about that. But intuitively I'm going with non-existence. But the rules made up by ancient men, and even more modern ones like Pascal, demand a bet on this conundrum. OK then, I'm leaning toward non-existence. I'm going to bet "No." Now it might be a losing bet, but I promise it's an honest bet, so that's my bet. I could lie and bet "Yes on existence." But lying sends you to Hell.
I think I'm going to stop now and go read a comic book.
Even as a child I was puzzled by the notion of god. I had my nose rubbed in the god business in Alabama (came from Oregon in the 5th grade). So, I tried to figure god out--and throughout much of my life I made concerted effort to get to know god--and as hard and as well as I knew how. I see theists not attempting to answer that essential first question--Does God exist and if so how do we know that? I'm not sure how to phrase this correctly, but I'll give it a shot. I start from a default of there is no god. I don't see how anybody can claim we pop out of mommy with that knowledge, one way or the other. Theists skip over that starting point and go to what they claim is the starting place that there is a god whether we acknowledge him or not. So, they don't need to prove his existence only have faith. But that is cheating in my book, for they are skipping a vital question--a question that overrides everything else--does god exist.
From my vantage point, god does not exist. From my default position I see no evidence that god does exist. Therefore god simply does not exist. I used to say that we cannot prove that--and theists can not prove that he does exist. But I think there is proof and we, as a society, have been conditioned not to see or accept that evidence. The evidence is in the form of no evidence at all. I don't see any empirical in my personal life; in any scientific study; in the physical world; or in nature. In fact, the astounding lack of evidence simply screams that there is no god. I don't see any evidence within the bible that shows god exists; in fact ALL of the evidence we have about the bible is that it is crafted by mankind; and most likely all men. And men who had a vested interest in keeping women and nature under their control, as well as other men. That the oldest bibles are found in only a single spot in the ancient world is further proof that it is a regional creation of men. Added all together, that is irrefutable proof that god is simply a fiction created by men to serve their political and social needs.
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 28, 2017, 12:26:40 PM
Even as a child I was puzzled by the notion of god. I had my nose rubbed in the god business in Alabama (came from Oregon in the 5th grade). So, I tried to figure god out--and throughout much of my life I made concerted effort to get to know god--and as hard and as well as I knew how. I see theists not attempting to answer that essential first question--Does God exist and if so how do we know that? I'm not sure how to phrase this correctly, but I'll give it a shot. I start from a default of there is no god. I don't see how anybody can claim we pop out of mommy with that knowledge, one way or the other. Theists skip over that starting point and go to what they claim is the starting place that there is a god whether we acknowledge him or not. So, they don't need to prove his existence only have faith. But that is cheating in my book, for they are skipping a vital question--a question that overrides everything else--does god exist.
From my vantage point, god does not exist. From my default position I see no evidence that god does exist. Therefore god simply does not exist. I used to say that we cannot prove that--and theists can not prove that he does exist. But I think there is proof and we, as a society, have been conditioned not to see or accept that evidence. The evidence is in the form of no evidence at all. I don't see any empirical in my personal life; in any scientific study; in the physical world; or in nature. In fact, the astounding lack of evidence simply screams that there is no god. I don't see any evidence within the bible that shows god exists; in fact ALL of the evidence we have about the bible is that it is crafted by mankind; and most likely all men. And men who had a vested interest in keeping women and nature under their control, as well as other men. That the oldest bibles are found in only a single spot in the ancient world is further proof that it is a regional creation of men. Added all together, that is irrefutable proof that god is simply a fiction created by men to serve their political and social needs.
While, it may be hard to put into words, you explained that well. It would be nice to make it simple, but being products of a Christian society, we can get hamstrung by mountains of Christian apology, so we tend to work in the muddy waters of that environment. But here's a simple response that a friend hit me with when I asked him, "Do you believe in God?" He didn't say yes or no. He just replied, "Its irrelevant." I was taken aback at first, but years later, I thought that's simple (and adequate) enough. There's nothing about God that we can identify that is relevant to reality. Put God in or take him out. Reality remains as it is. Man makes war, lies, fornicates with his neighbor's wife, and loves his children. Nothing changes. Still Christians seem to think that without their god, we would have anarchy. But what does that say about their inner morality? Would they start killing and raping or something? I wouldn't, and I doubt they would either. I would hate to think that Christians free from their God would suddenly become psychopaths, and that if they unleashed their own evil desires, we would all be doomed sooner than later.
I've never seen or heard of an organized group with the goal of exterminating atheists. I know of several organized groups over the past and present with the goal of exterminating Christians.
The most hated people on earth are the Jews, a close second is Judaeo Christianity. The Bible tells us all about how we will be hated and killed. History has recorded it and is presently recording it, all over the entire world, and it's getting worse.
But you, you are concerned with Christians turning and killing you. Don't worry, the Bible says no such thing. You're safe from the Christians.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
If evolution is true, what purpose do we have, why are we here?
Why do we need a purpose that is imposed on us from outside ourselves? Why is not our own internally generated purpose sufficient for our meaning?
QuoteIf this life here on earth is all we have, what separates us from the animals? Why don't we just kill the weak and take what we want?
Oh, you mean like the ancient Jews did to Canaan?
QuoteWhy should we work if this is all we have to look forward to, knowing that soon we will die? We should be living it up knowing we don't have to answer to anyone.
So, you're saying that without your religion you'd be out raping and pillaging, exploiting those weaker than you?
Then I'm really glad you have your religion - please don't lose your faith!
QuoteI submit to you that there is a God in heaven! We will all answer for what we have done and not done in this life on earth.
Well, if I'm to answer, I'll answer to God, NOT TO YOU, OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS FANATIC WHO CLaiMS TO TALK TO GOD!
QuoteThere will be rewards for those who have done there best to live a moral life and help others along the way.
Oh, so as long as I help people and live "morally" I can still be rewarded, even without having believed? That's nice. So happy now.
But who's morality am I to obey?
Yours?
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:06:12 PM
No, I don't believe your testimony. We are called by faith not by sight.
John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
2Cor. 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
And I reject yours also ... but don't take it personally. I have met Jesus ... have you?
"Well, if I'm to answer, I'll answer to God, NOT TO YOU, OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS FANATIC WHO CLaiMS TO TALK TO GOD!" ... the real problem isn't a god speaking to you or you speaking to that god, it is when you claim to the representative of that god, to speak for that god (aka clergy) that you have crossed over from sanity.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 02:00:29 PM
I've never seen or heard of an organized group with the goal of exterminating atheists. I know of several organized groups over the past and present with the goal of exterminating Christians.
You really do live in a fantasy world, don't you? Christians have never attempted to exterminate atheists? Give me a break.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 02:00:29 PM
I've never seen or heard of an organized group with the goal of exterminating atheists. I know of several organized groups over the past and present with the goal of exterminating Christians.
The most hated people on earth are the Jews, a close second is Judaeo Christianity. The Bible tells us all about how we will be hated and killed. History has recorded it and is presently recording it, all over the entire world, and it's getting worse.
But you, you are concerned with Christians turning and killing you. Don't worry, the Bible says no such thing. You're safe from the Christians.
Go back in time a little bit and tell that to those burning from christian torches. Or being drowned for being a witch.
Quote from: SGOS on January 28, 2017, 01:24:37 PM
While, it may be hard to put into words, you explained that well. It would be nice to make it simple, but being products of a Christian society, we can get hamstrung by mountains of Christian apology, so we tend to work in the muddy waters of that environment. But here's a simple response that a friend hit me with when I asked him, "Do you believe in God?" He didn't say yes or no. He just replied, "Its irrelevant." I was taken aback at first, but years later, I thought that's simple (and adequate) enough. There's nothing about God that we can identify that is relevant to reality. Put God in or take him out. Reality remains as it is. Man makes war, lies, fornicates with his neighbor's wife, and loves his children. Nothing changes. Still Christians seem to think that without their god, we would have anarchy. But what does that say about their inner morality? Would they start killing and raping or something? I wouldn't, and I doubt they would either. I would hate to think that Christians free from their God would suddenly become psychopaths, and that if they unleashed their own evil desires, we would all be doomed sooner than later.
I've often thought about that--if theists are kept from causing death and destruction by their beliefs they are indeed weak and sick people. But like you, I don't think they would change much if their religion evaporated one day. But theists will grasp at any 'reason' to believe and work very hard at not viewing this world in a realistic way so they don't have to confront it.
Confronting reality as it is ... is a very hard thing to do, both mentally and emotionally. A few odd job people do it ... but I am not sure I wouldn't wish to be blithely unaware.
I really doubt that anyone has ever been able to interpret, much less confront "reality as it is" because no one has ever been able to perceive reality as it is. Probably never will. We can only interpret reality as it appears to us, and we each see it in a different way, from a different worldview.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 29, 2017, 06:39:06 PM
I really doubt that anyone has ever been able to interpret, mush less confront "reality as it is" because no one has ever been able to perceive reality as it is. Probably never will. We can only interpret reality as it appears to us, and we each see it in a different way, from a different worldview.
Took the metaphysics right out of my mouth, and you didn't even ask ;-(
But logic, maths and science are a close approximation ... but a tool is only good for a specific use. I don't use a saw to put in screws. For geeks, the technical is endlessly fascinating ... and it was for me when I was younger. But there came a time to move onto non-technical things that mattered more.
Here's how we all view reality:
(http://www.bluentcad.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/12-700x525.jpg)
Don't pull on the elephant's tail. A woman zoo keeper was killed giving an elephant an enema ... she was too close when it all came out ;-(
Yeah, there might be other parts that are best not pulled on, as well...
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 29, 2017, 07:24:49 PM
Yeah, there might be other parts that are best not pulled on, as well...
A sexy elephant might caress you back ;-) Elephantine foreplay.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 29, 2017, 06:39:06 PM
I really doubt that anyone has ever been able to interpret, much less confront "reality as it is" because no one has ever been able to perceive reality as it is. Probably never will. We can only interpret reality as it appears to us, and we each see it in a different way, from a different worldview.
I agree--'our' world is as we think it to be.
Heisreal, can you tells us why a god has a right to demand this thing called faith? For what reason should any of us have this thing called faith? The way I see it, if a god doesn't want to justify his actions but demands that we accept them, than he is no better than a bully. Just as well, if a god never shows his face, he has no right to expect anyone to believe he is real. And if a god never shows his face and still demands that we believe in him or he will punish us, then that god is sadistic.
Quote from: fencerider on January 30, 2017, 01:59:00 AM
Heisreal, can you tells us why a god has a right to demand this thing called faith? For what reason should any of us have this thing called faith? The way I see it, if a god doesn't want to justify his actions but demands that we accept them, than he is no better than a bully. Just as well, if a god never shows his face, he has no right to expect anyone to believe he is real. And if a god never shows his face and still demands that we believe in him or he will punish us, then that god is sadistic.
Definitely cruel. Possibly sado-masochistic. I don't accept anyone's demands anyway.
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 29, 2017, 09:49:22 PM
I agree--'our' world is as we think it to be.
Oddly, I think "reality" is real. Prick me and I bleed. Push me over a wall and I fall. Lack me of water and I die. I find reality to be quite acceptable to my senses.
Quote from: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 04:48:05 AM
Oddly, I think "reality" is real. Prick me and I bleed. Push me over a wall and I fall. Lack me of water and I die. I find reality to be quite acceptable to my senses.
MikeCL is talking about the world of argument, not the world of the medical lab ;-) You only go to the medical lab, because you believe (with partial justification) that the doctor's lab order can help you. So MikeCLs statement and yours are complementary. On the lack of water ... that is a reasonable assumption, but until you kill yourself, you don't know. Even if you kill someone else, you don't know ... you might be immortal and an asshole (for killing someone).
Quote from: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 04:48:05 AM
Oddly, I think "reality" is real. Prick me and I bleed. Push me over a wall and I fall. Lack me of water and I die. I find reality to be quite acceptable to my senses.
Sure the physical laws of the universe apply to all equally. But what we think of as important is unique to us; reality is full of what we think of as real. And I would suggest your reality and mine are different--but probably similar.
Quote from: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 06:29:19 AM
MikeCL is talking about the world of argument, not the world of the medical lab ;-) You only go to the medical lab, because you believe (with partial justification) that the doctor's lab order can help you. So MikeCLs statement and yours are complementary. On the lack of water ... that is a reasonable assumption, but until you kill yourself, you don't know. Even if you kill someone else, you don't know ... you might be immortal and an asshole (for killing someone).
Therefore, we should all die ASAP to see if a deity exists? What if we choose the wrong one?
I can't imagine that Mithra would be too fond of a Thor believer...
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
If evolution is true, what purpose do we have, why are we here? If this life here on earth is all we have, what separates us from the animals? Why don't we just kill the weak and take what we want?
We don't have a "purpose" in the cosmological sense so by your sense we have every "right" to "kill the weak and take what we want". Your or my death is meaningless as far as the universe is concerned.
QuoteWhy should we work if this is all we have to look forward to, knowing that soon we will die? We should be living it up knowing we don't have to answer to anyone.
Absolutely since we are not going anywhere after we die so lets live it up "knowing we don't have to answer to anyone" by that logic.
QuoteI submit to you that there is a God in heaven! We will all answer for what we have done and not done in this life on earth. There will be rewards for those who have done there best to live a moral life and help others along the way.
You can "submit" all you like but it won't make a difference to the rest of us. There won't be any rewards but I agree with the idea we should do our "best to live a moral life and help others along the way". Most atheists feel and live that way.
QuoteI Cor. 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Bullshit.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:43:03 AM
I'm sorry you had a bad experience in searching for God. I can state the very reason that happened, but I'm sure it will be met with obscenities.
There is no reasoning with the Lord if His word is rejected.
Heb. 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Fine, you go grovel at the feet of your supreme being. Doubtfully you will end up in heaven (http://yoursmiles.org/bsmile/fun/b0218.gif)
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:06:12 PM
No, I don't believe your testimony. We are called by faith not by sight.
John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
2Cor. 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Reminds me of the song "Cherry Stones around my Plate".
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:06:12 PM
No, I don't believe your testimony. We are called by faith not by sight.
John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
2Cor. 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Fine you walk by faith, frankly I'll walk by sight.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 02:00:29 PM
I've never seen or heard of an organized group with the goal of exterminating atheists. I know of several organized groups over the past and present with the goal of exterminating Christians.
The most hated people on earth are the Jews, a close second is Judaeo Christianity. The Bible tells us all about how we will be hated and killed. History has recorded it and is presently recording it, all over the entire world, and it's getting worse.
But you, you are concerned with Christians turning and killing you. Don't worry, the Bible says no such thing. You're safe from the Christians.
Bullshit; how about the inquisition? Don't tell me I'm safe from religious zealots not to mention that gods need to kill whole peoples is rampant in the Old Testment. Either you look to the whole bible or not. Cherry picking is an abomination and ought to be worthy of the death penalty
Obviously I'm having a shitty evening but the whole bible thing makes me feel like barfing.
Quote from: Baruch on January 29, 2017, 06:58:44 PM
Don't pull on the elephant's tail. A woman zoo keeper was killed giving an elephant an enema ... she was too close when it all came out ;-(
Citation please. (http://yoursmiles.org/bsmile/fun/b0215.gif)
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 28, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
You really do live in a fantasy world, don't you? Christians have never attempted to exterminate atheists? Give me a break.
Or other Christians for that matter.
Quote from: Ro3bert on April 26, 2017, 06:59:33 PM
Or other Christians for that matter.
Yeah, like this fellow:
Quote from: Clemente Diaz AguilarMy captors stole everything from me...Those who captured me, in front of me, divided up my money, and later they led me into the hands of the torturers. In the long hours of torture, they asked me constantly about other pastors...of some churches in the capital; They asked me also about my views on liberation theology and about the liberation of the people of Israel. The torturers, tired of doing so much damage to me, rested for awhile; then, I recognized some of them: two are members of a singing duo from these churches [Verbo and Mission Elim]; I begged [them] to recognize me because I recognized them; then they asked me questions about my capture, my complete name, my address, my church and my activities. When they realized I was not the person they were looking for, they begged my forgiveness, saying,"Brother, we are also Christians.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 27, 2017, 12:12:20 PM
The fact that they have to rely only on arguments is rather telling.
Indeed.
It is as though they are publicly announcing that they have zero faith in the religion to speak for itself.
Quote from: Ro3bert on April 26, 2017, 06:41:03 PM
Fine you walk by faith, frankly I'll walk by sight.
Poster Heisreal was sent to Purgatory months ago. You won't get a response from him/her here.
Quote from: Ro3bert on April 26, 2017, 06:57:40 PM
Citation please. (http://yoursmiles.org/bsmile/fun/b0215.gif)
Apparently a man, and denied by Snopes. But ...
https://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/work-and-health-41/occupational-health-news-507/zookeepers-648116.html
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:06:12 PM
No, I don't believe your testimony. We are called by faith not by sight.
John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
2Cor. 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Faith is just a word the gullible use to justify belief in something that isn't logical to believe. There is no virtue in faith. In fact faith is offensive to intelligence.
Free your self from your christian chains of stupidity. Open your eyes to the truth and stop justifying a "belief " because it is just that a belief. You can really really believe it but that alone will never make it true.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: sdelsolray on April 26, 2017, 10:51:25 PM
Poster Heisreal was sent to Purgatory months ago. You won't get a response from him/her here.
Oops.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nevertheless, other people (those who merely lurk) may read these posts and get something good from them, whether the OP is still around or not. So post away, y'all!
Quote from: doorknob on May 16, 2017, 02:45:47 PM
Faith is just a word the gullible use to justify belief in something that isn't logical to believe. There is no virtue in faith. In fact faith is offensive to intelligence.
Free your self from your christian chains of stupidity. Open your eyes to the truth and stop justifying a "belief " because it is just that a belief. You can really really believe it but that alone will never make it true.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Unfortunately, whenever I hear someone claim that "they" are intelligent, I know I am dealing with an idiot savant. Free yourself from Greek secular idiocy. "idiotes" is Greek for individualist.
I'm sorry, I just read the religious texts of all religions and just smile and cringe at the same time. There is just no sense in any of them.
Quote from: Cavebear on May 18, 2017, 03:18:39 AM
I'm sorry, I just read the religious texts of all religions and just smile and cringe at the same time. There is just no sense in any of them.
Ah, but there is fiction that you do like, or at least in video form. So you are human, not a bear.
Quote from: SGOS on January 27, 2017, 11:59:05 AM
Formal definitions of Christian aplogetics, ie, "a field of Christian theology that presents historical, reasoned, and evidential bases for Christianity, defending it against objections" (Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics)), are too polite to say so, but they usually take care to avoid including "the use of logic" in describing the methodology. There is good reason for this, because Christian apologies that claim to be logical always fail in the end, making them illogical by definition.
The more renowned of the apologists attempt to claim logic in their written commentary and in their televised oral debates by attempting to mask their fallacies by equivocation, moving of goalposts, and complicated roundabouts (http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm), but they all fail logically. The oral debates I believe are the most effective, because they happen in real time with a fast delivery, are complicated and wordy, and lend themselves to the masking of fallacies, while the written works lend themselves to more critical study and dissection.
The usual lightweights that show up in this forum never demonstrate the cunning of the established leaders in the field. They don't seem to even understand apologetics, if in fact, they are even familiar with the term. Nor do they seem to have any understanding of the most common objections to the doctrine they are defending. They stop off on a mission of enlightenment, shoot off some long debunked trope, and meet with a wall of well deserved skepticism. Our current example, Godmessenger, identifies himself with a nickname resembling Christ himself, but doesn't seem to have a clue about what he is doing.
We can compare the lightweights to the experts, but both sources have an uncanny resemblance to snake oil salesmen.
meh...
i have found those who spend a lot of time criticizing others... are typically just projecting their own ineptitude on to those other people.. so as not to be called on it later, Kinda like a bill maher or John Stewart. Some of their best work is truthfully describing how they would fail in a real world situation and then tagging someone else with their own projected failures.
Seriously do you have ANY idea how hard it is on this side of the forum? where you are one voice against many, where you are engauged in sometimes 20 different arguments and are expected to maintain an ultra high standard of dialog and or material? What would you do in a room of 20 or 30 heavy hitters (besides S-yourself and leave after they start making sport of you) who all oppose your opinions or your tightly held views?
Would you do as well as you have given credit to those who do this very same thing here?
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 04:07:07 PM
meh...
i have found those who spend a lot of time criticizing others... are typically just projecting their own ineptitude on to those other people.. so as not to be called on it later, Kinda like a bill maher or John Stewart. Some of their best work is truthfully describing how they would fail in a real world situation and then tagging someone else with their own projected failures.
Seriously do you have ANY idea how hard it is on this side of the forum? where you are one voice against many, where you are engauged in sometimes 20 different arguments and are expected to maintain an ultra high standard of dialog and or material? What would you do in a room of 20 or 30 heavy hitters (besides S-yourself and leave after they start making sport of you) who all oppose your opinions or your tightly held views?
Would you do as well as you have given credit to those who do this very same thing here?
Poor baby. Won't your jebus help you--loan you his hooie spit or something? Why not just take your little toys big boy and go home. I don't remember anybody here begging you to spread your brand of shit on this board. So, just stay away.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 04:07:07 PMSeriously do you have ANY idea how hard it is on this side of the forum? where you are one voice against many, where you are engauged in sometimes 20 different arguments and are expected to maintain an ultra high standard of dialog and or material? What would you do in a room of 20 or 30 heavy hitters (besides S-yourself and leave after they start making sport of you) who all oppose your opinions or your tightly held views?
Trust me. Our expectations of you are not that high.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 08:46:47 PM
We will all answer for what we have done and not done in this life on earth.
This is blasphemy! I believe you are a false prophet and therefore by the law of the Babble I am allowed to kill you with gods full permission.
Quote from: aitm on June 22, 2017, 06:17:34 PM
This is blasphemy! I believe you are a false prophet and therefore by the law of the Babble I am allowed to kill you with gods full permission.
To kill an audience (or an individual) it has to be such a good joke, it is LOTFL. It takes a heretic to know G-d.
I am constantly amazed when newbie religious fanatics complain their superstitious views are not being given equal weight to rational scientific thinking as if this was a site dedicated to religious fanatics.
I'm not here to argue with every fruitcake who spends a few days quoting the bible or any other religious text or unsupported belief at me. I'm here to discuss events and thoughts with my fellow rational humans. And the religious people aren't them.
I don't go intruding myself with logical arguments into religious sites and I don't need the opposite here.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 04:07:07 PM
Seriously do you have ANY idea how hard it is on this side of the forum? where you are one voice against many, where you are engauged in sometimes 20 different arguments and are expected to maintain an ultra high standard of dialog and or material?
Oh, I suspect it's difficult, but I find such behavior far too annoying to warrant my personal praise or appreciation for your time and effort.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 23, 2017, 04:24:39 AM
I am constantly amazed when newbie religious fanatics complain their superstitious views are not being given equal weight to rational scientific thinking as if this was a site dedicated to religious fanatics.
I'm not here to argue with every fruitcake who spends a few days quoting the bible or any other religious text or unsupported belief at me. I'm here to discuss events and thoughts with my fellow rational humans. And the religious people aren't them.
I don't go intruding myself with logical arguments into religious sites and I don't need the opposite here.
To be honest, I kinda like it when a religious nut shows up. Kinda spices things up a bit for a little while, gives me something to laugh at, at least while their stupidity remains novel. When they repeat themselves or what other people have already said a million times, it just becomes annoying. When a religious person shows up, I always hope they'll be rational, to offer up some diversity in this forum, but that's not what most of them come to the
atheist forums to do.
Also, I am probably the type who would go to Christian forums to ask them tough questions and debate with them. But Christians love to employ a heavy amount of censorship. Go to ChristianForums.com (with an ad blocker, I suggest), and count the number of forums and subforums that are "Christian only." It's pretty much all of them.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 04:07:07 PM
meh...
i have found those who spend a lot of time criticizing others... are typically just projecting their own ineptitude on to those other people.. so as not to be called on it later, Kinda like a bill maher or John Stewart. Some of their best work is truthfully describing how they would fail in a real world situation and then tagging someone else with their own projected failures.
Seriously do you have ANY idea how hard it is on this side of the forum? where you are one voice against many, where you are engauged in sometimes 20 different arguments and are expected to maintain an ultra high standard of dialog and or material? What would you do in a room of 20 or 30 heavy hitters (besides S-yourself and leave after they start making sport of you) who all oppose your opinions or your tightly held views?
Would you do as well as you have given credit to those who do this very same thing here?
Hey, you came to us, we didn't come to you. If you can't stand the heat, don't go to hell.
Quote from: Drich0150 on June 22, 2017, 04:07:07 PM
Seriously do you have ANY idea how hard it is on this side
WAT?? Seriously....WTF? LOLOL. what a mop head. Do we have any idea what it is like to be outnumbered and out muscled and out"lawed" and outcast? WTF is wrong with you idiot? Laws are written to prevent "us" from running for political office. Show me the one that prevents you. Laws have been written to force us to pray in schools, to listen to your stupidity at government functions, even at a fucking car races and you think you have it tough? Poor poor little battered xian.....why you are indeed persecuted. You mop heads have had your day, we are pushing back.
Xian hard-liners have no conception on how terrible people they really are. They're forced to treat other religions, other races, other sexual orientations, and nonbelievers in civil ways and they call it "persecution."
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 28, 2017, 08:12:05 PM
Xian hard-liners have no conception on how terrible people they really are. They're forced to treat other religions, other races, other sexual orientations, and nonbelievers in civil ways and they call it "persecution."
This is a particular orientation of Protestants, they have to return to the pre-Constantine condition of persecution to be "real" Christians. Catholics don't feel this way. Of course in the Middle East, there are actual Christians under actual persecution (by Muslims in their case). American Protestants are like homely girls who think if they wear the same lipstick as the beautiful girls, they will be attractive. Like putting lipstick on a pig.
Quote from: Blackleaf on June 23, 2017, 09:56:04 AM
To be honest, I kinda like it when a religious nut shows up. Kinda spices things up a bit for a little while, gives me something to laugh at, at least while their stupidity remains novel. When they repeat themselves or what other people have already said a million times, it just becomes annoying. When a religious person shows up, I always hope they'll be rational, to offer up some diversity in this forum, but that's not what most of them come to the atheist forums to do.
Also, I am probably the type who would go to Christian forums to ask them tough questions and debate with them. But Christians love to employ a heavy amount of censorship. Go to ChristianForums.com (with an ad blocker, I suggest), and count the number of forums and subforums that are "Christian only." It's pretty much all of them.
I used to pay some attention to theists (decades ago on streaming sites) hoping for some interesting thought. But what you get is a Baruch posting nonsense and newbie theists thinking their superstition will convince me that there is a deity.
I went to christian sites a few months, offerring facts. They do not think factually, so there is no point. All we can hope for is that, like flat-earthers, they will gradually die out.
Quote from: Cavebear on June 29, 2017, 03:44:10 AM
I used to pay some attention to theists (decades ago on streaming sites) hoping for some interesting thought. But what you get is a Baruch posting nonsense and newbie theists thinking their superstition will convince me that there is a deity.
I went to christian sites a few months, offerring facts. They do not think factually, so there is no point. All we can hope for is that, like flat-earthers, they will gradually die out.
You and I are both close to dying out ... don't ask for whom the bell tolls ... good thing you were "offerring" spelling lessons to the Christians ;-)
Quote from: Cavebear on June 29, 2017, 03:44:10 AM
All we can hope for is that, like flat-earthers, they will gradually die out.
They're not
quite dead yet:
Modern flat Earth societies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies)
Quote from: Unbeliever on June 29, 2017, 05:20:59 PM
They're not quite dead yet:
Modern flat Earth societies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies)
QuoteModern flat Earth societies date from the middle of the 20th century; some adherents are serious and some are not.
I think some people like to latch onto things like just to be weird.
Yeah, like people who watch:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Squidbillies_title_card.png)
:rrotflmao:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT8QbKMiefE
I see you have been to Louisiana ;-)
Quote from: SGOS on June 29, 2017, 05:40:19 PM
I think some people like to latch onto things like just to be weird.
I find it difficult to think that any flat-earthers are in it for anything but a joke... Seriously, even theists have to understand that a flat earth doesn't even fit their theology. Right?
Quote from: Cavebear on July 03, 2017, 05:10:42 AM
I find it difficult to think that any flat-earthers are in it for anything but a joke... Seriously, even theists have to understand that a flat earth doesn't even fit their theology. Right?
Well, basic science doesn't fit into their theology, so you know from that how easy it is to convince certain people the earth is flat.
Quote from: Munch on July 03, 2017, 05:15:17 AM
Well, basic science doesn't fit into their theology, so you know from that how easy it is to convince certain people the earth is flat.
I think the flat-earth/theistic connection comes from something about Satan showing Jesus the "whole earth" from a tall mountain. Which WOULD require the earth being flat... But I'm not sure that some flat-earthers use even THAT minuscule bit of logic.
Quote from: Cavebear on July 03, 2017, 08:08:48 AM
I think the flat-earth/theistic connection comes from something about Satan showing Jesus the "whole earth" from a tall mountain. Which WOULD require the earth being flat... But I'm not sure that some flat-earthers use even THAT minuscule bit of logic.
The Earth is flat, but space is curved. Chicken vs egg ;-)
Joshua Slocum was the first single hander to sail alone around the world, at least the first to write about it. I think it was the late 1800s, and back then, someone attempting such a journey would be entertained by kings and heads of state, one of which was the president of South Africa, or whatever they called that person back then.
At any rate, the president of South Africa was a flat Earther and spread out maps and argued with Slocum who had already completed 4/5 of the journey with only the well traveled route from the Cape of Good Hope to England ahead of him. Actually, he started from Boston, but the first leg of his circumnavigation was to England, after which wind and pirates forced him to the tip of South America, so he decided to go about his travels in a westerly direction, rather than easterly, which was kind of odd, because the prevailing winds make an easterly circumnavigation (his original plan) rougher and more difficult.
For Magellan, proving the world round was a mostly fatal experiment. Today there would be people who would have claimed that the men who did come back, weren't the men who went out on the voyage, but performing some bizarre prank ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Guerre
Quote from: Baruch on June 29, 2017, 08:06:31 PM
I see you have been to Louisiana ;-)
Yeah, lived in New Orleans - twice. Wonderful place, but that was pre-Katrina.
Quote from: SGOS on July 03, 2017, 08:35:07 AM
Joshua Slocum was the first single hander to sail alone around the world, at least the first to write about it. I think it was the late 1800s, and back then, someone attempting such a journey would be entertained by kings and heads of state, one of which was the president of South Africa, or whatever they called that person back then.
At any rate, the president of South Africa was a flat Earther and spread out maps and argued with Slocum who had already completed 4/5 of the journey with only the well traveled route from the Cape of Good Hope to England ahead of him. Actually, he started from Boston, but the first leg of his circumnavigation was to England, after which wind and pirates forced him to the tip of South America, so he decided to go about his travels in a westerly direction, rather than easterly, which was kind of odd, because the prevailing winds make an easterly circumnavigation (his original plan) rougher and more difficult.
I read the book by him about his voyage. It was truly remarkable!