After a year of openly being an atheist, I have had a lot of... interesting experiences with Christians. I was just going to post my own, but thought it might make for a great discussion thread.
Here are a few of the most memorable of my own...
1. I tell a friend of mine and he flips out. He started accusing me of being a Satanist and in league with the illuminati. I tried to talk to him, but he wouldn't listen. I talked to him later showing him my tattoo. He seemed okay at first, but quickly went back to accusations and name calling. I haven't spoke to him since.
2. I'm still close to the boss and coworkers from my first job. I told my old boss and a coworker early on. I was scared how they would react. Turns out my old boss is not Christian and might be atheist too or at least agnostic. My old coworker is Catholic on paper and nothing more (even though her family constantly harasses her about going to church because she hasn't been in years) and chooses to let people think she is because it's just easier. We all agreed to not tell my other old coworker (all 3 still work there) who is super Christian and a minister.
3. I went to a beautiful walking trail with springs and such. I ran into a woman who started talking Christian stuff to me. She was nice so I told her in a kind way that I wasn't a Christian. We ended up having a very long talk. I wish I had had all the evidence I have to support my views because I was unprepared. She tried to understand, but just couldn't and kept throwing the typical arguments at me. At least I helped her understand the difference between atheist and anti-theist. We parted ways with her saying she was saddened for me. To her I was a good person that lost my way and would end up punished for it and she hated to see that.
4. I went to vote (at a church no less) and found out a neighbor that I looked up to was a rabid Trump supporter (you do you but please don't insult me or other's views, beliefs, or attributes). She brought up Christian stuff and greatly insulted LGBTQ+ people of which I am one of (polysexual). She insulted races and religions other than her own. She presented a twisted version of history. It hurt. I went outside to get some air and wait my turn when a polling person came out to check on me. I told her why I was upset. About how hurt I was having my sexuality and beliefs insulted by someone I looked up to. She echoed the woman on the trail before saying the fact that I was an atheist saddened her and how she didn't understand. She left me with some disproven Christian fact to "think about", said she would pray for me, and went back inside.
5. I told my dad. He got mad saying that atheist are people who go door to door trying to convince people that there is no god and want all religions gone. It's the word itself he hates as he doesn't believe in any god and thinks religion is bullshit and there is no afterlife. I tried to explain but he wasn't having it.
6. I ran into woman I was close friends with in grade school. We got back in touch and talked a lot. She was cool with LGBTQ+, but was pretty badly misinformed about trans* individuals and thought polysexual meant I wasn't racist. Later in the conversation we were talking about religion. She said she was a witch/Christian at one point, but dropped out of witchcraft as she found it invited negative energies into her life along with positive. I told her my best friend was a witch. I swallowed hard and was scared, but told her I was an atheist with my guard down. I thought she would understand. Her first question was if I was a Satanist (what is with that!?!). I told her I wasn't as I didn't believe in the devil and such. She replied that a lot of people who are atheist are and just don't know it. I went home really upset. I wasn't prepared for it.
Things got complicated when I found out she was going to be my new landlady. Instead of avoiding her and the whole situation, I confronted it head on. We had a very long conversation that lasted hours. Turns out she was just badly misinformed. She had no idea what I went though being an atheist in an extremely Christian town or what being an atheist actually meant. I explained the whole satanist thing was because there are so many laws to protect discrimination for religion, but not the lack thereof, so some got together and created a tongue and cheek one to give us protection under the law with some of them fighting for equal rights such as by saying allowing gay marriage is part of there religion and not allowing it was to go against that. I talked about how I seen religion as a beautiful thing that is important to a lot of people, but it's not for me and never has been even when I was a child.
We also had a long talk about trans* people. She has a transwoman tenant and had misgendered her several times not knowing any better (like saying that he was a woman). She didn't know the real danger they are in just for being who they are, how brain scans show that a transwoman's brain is more similar to the brain of a woman than a man with one part different from both, how surgery is much more dangerous than it should be (comparing top surgery with breast removal for cancer and such), and that rather or not they ever have bottom surgery, they are still their identified gender. I also covered children born intersex who until recently had surgery as children to make them more binary before they could even consent.
The whole conversation was very jarring for her and changed a lot of her views. It was difficult for me to talk about as I normally don't openly talk about it all and almost felt invasive, but she was like a wide eyed child asking millions of questions with no idea how they might come off. It was like nobody had ever sat down and talked to her about atheism or LGBTQ+ much let her ask every random question she had. It was draining for me, but fascinating and enlightening for her. She's really excited about me moving in the end of this month.
Great "diary" entry ... still like your symbol too.
A lot of people are simply ignorant, not all are bigots. For those who are ignorant, who you can be open to ... you are as much saving them as any Christian missionary could save you. Don't hate the ignorant. Try not to hate bigots (I know it is hard not to).
I told one young lady I was an atheist. She was quiet for a second and then said, "Well, it happens, people get abused..." The idea that I had never been a believer simply wasn't an option for her.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
I told one young lady I was an atheist. She was quiet for a second and then said, "Well, it happens, people get abused..." The idea that I had never been a believer simply wasn't an option for her.
That is the way the Matrix operates. No need to suppress free speech, if you have no free thought.
Quote from: Bluewind on January 13, 2017, 12:01:12 PM
He started accusing me of being a Satanist [. . .] Her first question was if I was a Satanist (what is with that!?!). I told her I wasn't as I didn't believe in the devil and such. She replied that a lot of people who are atheist are and just don't know it.
I'm sure that some of this does come from confusion about the Church of Satan but, from my experience, a lot of it stems from the idea that anyone who's not the correct type of chirstian must have been mislead by satan. More that one I've heard that Hindu gods really exist, they are just fallen angels deceiving people--so all Hindus unknowingly worship devils. I've been told from the pulpit that satan sometimes gives the pope visions of the future to aid in luring christians away from true christianity--so catholics worship satan; unknowingly for the rank and file catholic but the priests know full well who they really follow.
I suppose that admitting all the other religions are man made errors could lead to doubts about one's own religion while 'knowing' that they are traps created by your religion's devil to trick people away from your one true religion actually acts to reinforce the validity of one's religions belief.
Quote from: Bluewind on January 13, 2017, 12:01:12 PMHe started accusing me of being a Satanist
Which, even if that were true, and you literally worshipped the devil, that's lesser of two evils considering all the stuff God is said to have done in the Bible.
Quoteand in league with the illuminati.
A group that lasted about a decade and had maybe a few thousand adherents at its peak, and that's being generous. Their influence has since been played up to a ludicrous extent.
Quote5. I told my dad. He got mad saying that atheist are people who go door to door trying to convince people that there is no god
Which is literally the exact opposite of what actually happens.
QuoteShe said she was a witch/Christian at one point, but dropped out of witchcraft as she found it invited negative energies into her life along with positive.
That one seems like a post-conversion demonization of the old affiliation because I very much doubt current witches would have that sort of complaint.
QuoteI swallowed hard and was scared, but told her I was an atheist with my guard down. I thought she would understand. Her first question was if I was a Satanist (what is with that!?!)
I dunno. It seems like the go-to association for bible-thumpers even though logically, people who don't believe in supernatural beings are unlikely to be in league with the devil, a supernatural being. It's like accusing vegans of being cannibals. Makes no sense.
QuoteShe had no idea what I went though being an atheist in an extremely Christian town or what being an atheist actually meant.
Seems like a common theme.
QuoteThe whole conversation was very jarring for her and changed a lot of her views. It was difficult for me to talk about as I normally don't openly talk about it all and almost felt invasive, but she was like a wide eyed child asking millions of questions with no idea how they might come off. It was like nobody had ever sat down and talked to her about atheism or LGBTQ+ much let her ask every random question she had. It was draining for me, but fascinating and enlightening for her. She's really excited about me moving in the end of this month.
Well, at least that's good. It's puzzling how these people get so sheltered they don't encounter atheists or LBGTQ+ people. You'd think most people would at least hear about that stuff in their teens or 20s.
I seldom have these kinds on interactions with Christians, since they have no need to know the state of my relationship with God. When it does come up I'm unapologetic concerning my lack of belief, and to hell with them if they don't like it.
I sometimes use the word nullifidian to express my unbelief, since no one knows what it means and so it lacks all that negative baggage the A word has.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BA0IB8eS-jM/VQmTO5kNjFI/AAAAAAAACXQ/0tVHLpLddkk/s506/WOTD%2B18%2Bnullifidian.png)
(https://i.imgflip.com/120j7z.jpg)
"A group that lasted about a decade and had maybe a few thousand adherents at its peak, and that's being generous. Their influence has since played up to a ludicrous extent."
European Freemasons are politically active and anti-Catholic. A Freemason recently hacked Mario Draghi, who is part of the EU nomenklatura.
I haven't said to very many people that I am not believing the story line anymore. Nice to see what I get to look forward to. I don't know that I should be trying to disillusion anyone I know ( definitely not my brother-in-law who is a pastor).
Quote from: fencerider on January 14, 2017, 02:07:44 AM
I haven't said to very many people that I am not believing the story line anymore. Nice to see what I get to look forward to. I don't know that I should be trying to disillusion anyone I know ( definitely not my brother-in-law who is a pastor).
I hope it does go better for you (and others). Nobody needs the unnecessary hassle.
Quote from: Poison Tree on January 13, 2017, 02:17:32 PM
I'm sure that some of this does come from confusion about the Church of Satan but, from my experience, a lot of it stems from the idea that anyone who's not the correct type of chirstian must have been mislead by satan. More that one I've heard that Hindu gods really exist, they are just fallen angels deceiving people--so all Hindus unknowingly worship devils. I've been told from the pulpit that satan sometimes gives the pope visions of the future to aid in luring christians away from true christianity--so catholics worship satan; unknowingly for the rank and file catholic but the priests know full well who they really follow.
I suppose that admitting all the other religions are man made errors could lead to doubts about one's own religion while 'knowing' that they are traps created by your religion's devil to trick people away from your one true religion actually acts to reinforce the validity of one's religions belief.
Very well put. People are willing to go to extremes to protect their ignorance. It does make me sad though because seeing every other religion as Satan worshipers has to have a negative impact on them and their interactions with others. To believe that an overwhelming majority of people are worshiping evil and lost all morality must be a terrible way to live. I imagine they can't even research it themselves for fear of bringing evil into their own lives which is also sad because they are quite fascinating with rich histories.
Quote from: Baruch on January 13, 2017, 01:04:45 PM
Great "diary" entry ... still like your symbol too.
A lot of people are simply ignorant, not all are bigots. For those who are ignorant, who you can be open to ... you are as much saving them as any Christian missionary could save you. Don't hate the ignorant. Try not to hate bigots (I know it is hard not to).
Thanks! It's forever on my leg now and I love it still :)
I don't necessarily hate bigots unless they're extreme; I just find them tiring.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
I told one young lady I was an atheist. She was quiet for a second and then said, "Well, it happens, people get abused..." The idea that I had never been a believer simply wasn't an option for her.
Oh my god! I had someone tell me that when they found out I wasn't straight! They thought that one had to have been abused to be like that. I had a terrible childhood sure, but it didn't contribute.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 13, 2017, 03:09:44 PM
I seldom have these kinds on interactions with Christians, since they have no need to know the state of my relationship with God. When it does come up I'm unapologetic concerning my lack of belief, and to hell with them if they don't like it.
I sometimes use the word nullifidian to express my unbelief, since no one knows what it means and so it lacks all that negative baggage the A word has.
It's not like I go about screaming it from rooftops, but as religious as my area is, it can't be avoided.
I wish we didn't have to find new words at all. Their hate is so misguided and illogical. We aren't hurting anyone.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
Which, even if that were true, and you literally worshipped the devil, that's lesser of two evils considering all the stuff God is said to have done in the Bible.
Oh yeah. The biblical god was a crazy, manipulative, petty, jealous, mass murderer. The devil, Satan, and Lucifer all read to be far less evil by comparison.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
A group that lasted about a decade and had maybe a few thousand adherents at its peak, and that's being generous. Their influence has since played up to a ludicrous extent.
I know. I have yet to figure out why people think they are an all powerful group of atheists or devil worshipers or whatever. They make interesting fiction fodder, but are no more a threat than Hydra from Marvel, The Other from Girl Genius, or Alchemists from Bloodlines (Richelle Mead).
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
Which is literally the exact opposite of what actually happens.
Oh yes. Most of us just want to live our lives in peace at most fighting for continued separation of church and state and the same protection against discrimination that those who follow a religion have.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
That one seems like a post-conversion demonization of the old affiliation because I very much doubt current witches would have that sort of complaint.
Seeing as my best friend is a witch, I would have to agree. It makes her happy and helps her. She has been one for years. She was raised Christian, but it never felt right. When she stuck her town in the water, it felt right but her parents found out and demonized it. She went back to it as an adult and never looked back. Most people don't realize it's a very positive faith with them believing that energy you put out into the world comes back to you, so if they did bad things or used dark magic, it would eventually come back and have a negative impact on them and their lives. Knowing that, I don't know how she could have seen it as inviting negative energy in her life.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
I dunno. It seems like the go-to association for bible-thumpers even though logically, people who don't believe in supernatural beings are unlikely to be in league with the devil, a supernatural being. It's like accusing vegans of being cannibals. Makes no sense.
Lol! Lovely way of putting it. I still find it bizarre.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
Seems like a common theme.
It really is isn't it?
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 13, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
Well, at least that's good. It's puzzling how these people get so sheltered they don't encounter atheists or LBGTQ+ people. You'd think most people would at least hear about that stuff in their teens or 20s.
You underestimate my town. I seen my first gay person in my 20s and my sister shields her boys from TV shows with gay people even going so far as covering their eyes. And the mental image of atheists here is insane. I called myself not Christian/religious a long time because I didn't know what atheism actually was. It's a definition you never question because that's all you know. It's like being told your whole like that your eyes are brown when in a mirror they show blue; you might try to bend the truth to fit their belief or discard it as false, but you can't hide from it forever. It takes courage to question.
Quote from: fencerider on January 14, 2017, 02:07:44 AM
I haven't said to very many people that I am not believing the story line anymore. Nice to see what I get to look forward to. I don't know that I should be trying to disillusion anyone I know ( definitely not my brother-in-law who is a pastor).
There is good along with the bad. My Christian long distance friend reacted with a shrug. My witch best friend had a few questions and then was supportive. My other best friend is also an atheist and we both figured out the definitions together (she knew she was an atheist before but didn't know what it meant). These are just my most memorable examples. This isn't the everyday. If it was, I would have moved by now ;)
Quote from: Bluewind on January 13, 2017, 12:01:12 PM
6. I ran into woman I was close friends with in grade school. We got back in touch and talked a lot. She was cool with LGBTQ+, but was pretty badly misinformed about trans* individuals
I saw you put an asterisk* after "trans", so I looked at the bottom of your post but saw no footnote.
* An asterisk is a star-like symbol commonly used for adding simple footnotes to a text.
Quote from: Atheon on January 14, 2017, 03:36:16 AM
I saw you put an asterisk* after "trans", so I looked at the bottom of your post but saw no footnote.
* An asterisk is a star-like symbol commonly used for adding simple footnotes to a text.
It's commonly added on the end of trans to denote all transgender individuals including transman, transwoman, genderqueer, agender, two spirit, genderfluid, and so on. Basically, the gender you were assigned at birth is not what you are and the asterisk leaves what that gender is open so as to include all trans* individuals including those that don't have "trans" before what they identify as and those that do not identify as strictly male or female.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 13, 2017, 01:12:11 PM
I told one young lady I was an atheist. She was quiet for a second and then said, "Well, it happens, people get abused..." The idea that I had never been a believer simply wasn't an option for her.
its always the worst when confronted by a kid who says something like that, because you know the kids been indoctrinated by their parents and/or teachers in 'special' schools, so theres nothing much you can do to get it through to them, not even the simple idea that everyone is different.
Quote from: Baruch on January 13, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
That is the way the Matrix operates. No need to suppress free speech, if you have no free thought.
I think rather that she'd never considered the idea before. We had no problems because of it.
Quote from: Munch on January 14, 2017, 05:18:41 AM
its always the worst when confronted by a kid who says something like that, because you know the kids been indoctrinated by their parents and/or teachers in 'special' schools, so theres nothing much you can do to get it through to them, not even the simple idea that everyone is different.
She was working as a science outreach educator at a certain establishment in this city.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on January 14, 2017, 05:21:18 AM
I think rather that she'd never considered the idea before. We had no problems because of it.
That just proves you're in the Matrix too, kiddo :^)
Quote from: Bluewind on January 14, 2017, 04:28:35 AM
It's commonly added on the end of trans to denote all transgender individuals including transman, transwoman, genderqueer, agender, two spirit, genderfluid, and so on.
That can also be accomplished by just using "trans" without the asterisk.
I told the Jehovah's Witnesses who come around less and less frequently lately when they asked me what my religious beliefs were. The response was, "No, you're not an atheist." Just outright, "that's not what you are". I was a little shocked at first. I later figured out that they didn't know what an "atheist" was. They thought it necessarily meant that I would be a bad person, evil, and since I never booted them out, always talked with them politely and was never rude or pushy about my lack of belief, I wasn't a bad person and therefore could not be an atheist. Instead I was just someone who didn't believe in God... Still not sure exactly what they think an "atheist" is.
Some people are anti-theist. Other people are anti-anti-theist. I think they both go to far.
Quote from: Baruch on January 16, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
Some people are anti-theist. Other people are anti-anti-theist. I think they both go to far.
But
do they go too far? Or do they not go too far enough?
Quote from: widdershins on January 16, 2017, 05:39:28 PM
But do they go too far? Or do they not go too far enough?
Moderation in all things, or fanaticism ... your choice.
I was in school a couple months ago and someone shouted out that I was an atheist in maths. So a girl asked me after that, "Are you really an atheist?"
I said yes. She asked then, "So, do you believe that the devil Exists?"
I said no and then she said, "Okay, thanks."
It was really embarrassing because I'm a really private person about a lot of things, including being an atheist.
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 16, 2017, 11:45:15 PM
I was in school a couple months ago and someone shouted out that I was an atheist in maths. So a girl asked me after that, "Are you really an atheist?"
I said yes. She asked then, "So, do you believe that the devil Exists?"
I said yes and then she said, "Okay, thanks."
It was really embarrassing because I'm a really private person about a lot of things, including being an atheist.
Did you mean to mess with her, or were you just at a loss for words. Otherwise you just converted another person to Jesus Camp.
Sorry, let me just fix my mistake in there really quick, sometimes I just type faster than what I read.
en contraire the existence of the devil or any other evil spirit does not constitute any kind of proof that a god exists. *
*Journey I believe you mean mathematics. Maths isn't a real word.
Quote from: fencerider on January 17, 2017, 01:25:53 AM
en contraire the existence of the devil or any other evil spirit does not constitute any kind of proof that a god exists. *
*Journey I believe you mean mathematics. Maths isn't a real word.
Math is merely consistent, and in a narrow way (2-value logic). That is enough for proof, but not for existence.
From a brief conversation the other day:
Me: I'm an atheist.
Her: Jesus loves you anyway.
Quote from: missingnocchi on January 14, 2017, 05:55:45 AM
That just proves you're in the Matrix too, kiddo :^)
Nah, she was quick on the uptake, and added my experience to her world view without stressing.
When people learn you are an atheist, there will be misunderstandings at a level beyond the ordinary misunderstandings in communication that happen all day long anyway. There will also be unwarranted emotional responses, and often a large display of outright ignorance. Most of the time, these misunderstandings have been slight. Well, I think they are slight. I tend to test the emotional waters, and if things haven't gone South, I don't care that much. But I avoid calling attention to my atheism because I don't like being misunderstood. Lord knows, I don't understand religious people. When I'm in a large group of them, it's like being in an asylum, where inmates wander around in their own little worlds, mumbling crazy thoughts while being completely disconnected from each other.
In cases where there is a lot of preaching going on, I have left. I've listened to this stuff my entire life and decided that it's worthless crap. I start feeling like I'll scream if I am forced to listen to a steady stream of such incoherent gibberish. I become part of the asylum myself. I need to seek out a place where I can talk with someone about more meaningful or normal things, the weather, how much they love their dog, or filing my tax return.
Quote from: Atheon on January 17, 2017, 08:02:52 AM
From a brief conversation the other day:
Me: I'm an atheist.
Her: Jesus loves you anyway.
That one's just a total dick move. My old pastor loved to use it, if that tells you what kind of guy he is.
Quote from: Atheon on January 17, 2017, 08:02:52 AM
From a brief conversation the other day:
Me: I'm an atheist.
Her: Jesus loves you anyway.
Me: How about your other imaginary friends? Do they love me too?
Quote from: Bluewind on January 14, 2017, 02:51:40 AMIt's not like I go about screaming it from rooftops, but as religious as my area is, it can't be avoided.
I wish we didn't have to find new words at all. Their hate is so misguided and illogical. We aren't hurting anyone.
Whenever anyone
does try to preach at me about God or Jesus (which, as I say, is very seldom), I just ask them if they've read the Bible - the whole Bible - and when they invariably admit they have not (apparently only atheists ever read the whole Bible...), I tell them to do so, and then come talk to me again: they've
never come back to talk to me again.
What amuses me is the glares I get when someone says "God bless you!" and I don't respond. Friendly to evil in the blink of an eye.
widdershins: Lol! Oh my goodness. Sounds like the conversation I had with my dad. Apparently we are all anti religion wanting them all abolished and try to get people to give up religion at every opportunity XD
Journey_To_Mars: I have yet to figure out why that is the first question Christians normally ask upon finding out someone is an atheist.
fencerider: Very true, but the existence of spirits and such would add validity to certain religions and provide data that may or may not prove the existence of a deity, multiple deities, and/or a powerful spirit who would appear godlike to early man.
Atheon: lol! Oh I love that. I wonder if she meant it as a kindness like when someone says they will pray for you or as the last word in a close minded argument? Poor people know no better. I've had people try to convert me before because they thought I was too good of a person to end up in hell.
SGOS: Very true. Sometimes I want to tell them that I imagine Jesus was probably once looked at like the founder of Scientology and their holy text is an insane contradicting mess with thousands of interpretations including which books are actually real. I don't scream that I'm an atheist from the rooftops, but I try to be open if it comes up. I had a guy who really scared me once who followed me to my car just because he found out I had a broken infinity tattoo to symbolize the importance of today (I was showing it off to a cashier I knew. It's in my signature). He fussed and argued the whole time talking about god and the afterlife while giving me a scary look. I'm kinda glad I didn't bring up the A word during the conversation with the cashier.
Unbeliever: Oh yeah. There is some crazy stuff in there if you read the whole thing. There are however a lot of people here who have read the whole thing cover to cover and stayed Christian though. I'm not sure how as I did myself at a very young age and found so many flaws and contradictions. If it really is god's word and a holy book, shouldn't it be all inspiring and strengthen faith if read in entirety instead of in short bursts? And why are some things metaphors, some outdated, and some 100% true and holy law? It shouldn't need so many notes and excuses just to make sense in the modern world if it was written by man at the instructions of a timeless deity.
Gawdzilla Sama: Ever been at a family meal when everyone closes their eyes to bless the food and you stand there with eyes open? It's always neat to see who else doesn't pray like it's a secret between the two of you.
Quote from: Bluewind on January 18, 2017, 12:26:50 PM
Gawdzilla Sama: Ever been at a family meal when everyone closes their eyes to bless the food ...
Nope.
I heard this on NPR the other day, thought it might be of interest here:
QuoteCaleb B: What is it about the idea of a soul that even people who confess to not have one are hesitant to sell it? I have been trying, for the better part of ten years, to buy a soul. I’ve offered a dollar amount, between $10 and $50, for someone to sign a sheet of paper that says that I own their soul. Despite multiple debates with confessed atheists, no one has signed the contract. I have been able to buy several people’s Sense of Humor and one guy’s Dignity, but no souls. Additionally, will any Freakonomics reader take me up on this? I’m willing to spend $50 on souls.
QuoteBRUCE HAMILTON: One of the first things when I realized that there was a guy out there that would produce real money, my first thoughts were wow, if there’s a guy who’ll pay fifty I wonder if there’s someone who will pay fifty-one. I even noticed that eBay has a policy against selling intangible items, so you can’t go auction your soul off on eBay.
Soul Possession: A New Freakonomics Radio Podcast (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/soul-possession-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/)
What is the Worth of Souls? About $50? (https://wheatandtares.org/2013/01/14/the-worth-of-ouls/)
I sold mine for a night with...
Oh, look at the time, gotta go.
Quote from: fencerider on January 17, 2017, 01:25:53 AM
en contraire the existence of the devil or any other evil spirit does not constitute any kind of proof that a god exists. *
*Journey I believe you mean mathematics. Maths isn't a real word.
I'm sorry, I'm afraid that I've been listening to English mathematicians too much and have picked up their phonics on the English language.
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 19, 2017, 11:36:37 PM
I'm sorry, I'm afraid that I've been listening to English mathematicians too much and have picked up their phonics on the English language.
Book on teaching phonics in GB ... "Hooked on Yorkshire Pudding" ;-) No need to apologize, unless you are a Christian apologist ;-)
Gawdzilla Sama: Lol! That was quick XD
Unbeliever: Oh my god XD
I'm pretty sure if he offered a real amount, more would have. How about a month's pay? There's also the fact that being an atheist doesn't always mean the person doesn't believe in a soul or even an afterlife. Atheist don't believe in a deity or deities. That's it. The rest is open to individual interpretation.
It's true that Christians are quick to condemn, I'm also guilty as charged. But I learned that not a single Christian has the power to fulfill a single promise found in scripture. We Christians are not perfect, we make mistakes everyday, especially when dealing with the differences of unbelievers. There is only One who is perfect, the rest of us are a work in progress.
I don't condemn you for not believing, I wish you the same that the great Apostle Paul wished his audience, "that you may come to the knowledge of truth." The truth is that Christ came into this world to deliver man from his problem, the problem of sin and it's consequences.
You can talk the talk. But can you walk the walk? Anyone can memorize talking points. Even believe them. But to have understanding, you have to live them. I wish you good speed with that ;-)
Quote from: Heisreal on January 26, 2017, 11:08:09 PM
It's true that Christians are quick to condemn, I'm also guilty as charged. But I learned that not a single Christian has the power to fulfill a single promise found in scripture. We Christians are not perfect, we make mistakes everyday, especially when dealing with the differences of unbelievers. There is only One who is perfect, the rest of us are a work in progress.
If you Christians were a "work in progress," then you would be better than the average unbeliever. But you're not. Christians have always been late adopters of what the secular people have already figured out. They were for slavery until well after everyone else figured out how evil it was. They were against medicine when everyone else knew that it saved lives. They stood in the way of science, and continue to do so today by denying evidence that the earth is millions of years old. They promote the use of corporal punishment, despite the fact that it was proven several decades ago that the practice increases aggression and bad behavior, lowers IQ, and is damaging in other ways. Today, they condemn homosexual people for being the way their god supposedly made them in the first place, and are almost single handedly responsible for abusing and oppressing these people. Christians are below average in human decency.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 26, 2017, 11:08:09 PMI don't condemn you for not believing, I wish you the same that the great Apostle Paul wished his audience, "that you may come to the knowledge of truth." The truth is that Christ came into this world to deliver man from his problem, the problem of sin and it's consequences.
You mean the truth that God, with his omniscience, knew every possible universe that he could possibly ever create, including an infinite number of universes without sin, but he decided not to use his omnipotence to make one of those, instead choosing to make one where 1/3 of the angels and the vast majority of people spend eternity in Hell? The truth that God would create people without knowledge of the difference between good and evil, allow Satan to tempt them, and then punish them and ALL of their offspring for doing evil? The truth that he'd choose to make faith in him the single qualification for Heaven, but then hide himself and allow hundreds of thousands of false religions to pop up, making it nearly impossible to find the right one? If the God of the Bible is real, then he's the closest thing to an objective evil imaginable. I would never worship that piece of shit.
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 27, 2017, 11:18:13 AM
If you Christians were a "work in progress," then you would be better than the average unbeliever. But you're not. Christians have always been late adopters of what the secular people have already figured out. They were for slavery until well after everyone else figured out how evil it was. They were against medicine when everyone else knew that it saved lives. They stood in the way of science, and continue to do so today by denying evidence that the earth is millions of years old. They promote the use of corporal punishment, despite the fact that it was proven several decades ago that the practice increases aggression and bad behavior, lowers IQ, and is damaging in other ways. Today, they condemn homosexual people for being the way their god supposedly made them in the first place, and are almost single handedly responsible for abusing and oppressing these people. Christians are below average in human decency.
You mean the truth that God, with his omniscience, knew every possible universe that he could possibly ever create, including an infinite number of universes without sin, but he decided not to use his omnipotence to make one of those, instead choosing to make one where 1/3 of the angels and the vast majority of people spend eternity in Hell? The truth that God would create people without knowledge of the difference between good and evil, allow Satan to tempt them, and then punish them and ALL of their offspring for doing evil? The truth that he'd choose to make faith in him the single qualification for Heaven, but then hide himself and allow hundreds of thousands of false religions to pop up, making it nearly impossible to find the right one? If the God of the Bible is real, then he's the closest thing to an objective evil imaginable. I would never worship that piece of shit.
God is not far away from you, Blackleaf! He is very near waiting to make Himself real to you. He didn't create you or anyone else to be a robot. He created you in His own image with a specific purpose that no one on earth can fulfill but you. He gave you free will to accept Him or reject Him, He will NOT over-ride your free will.
Jeremiah 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
That's a promise from the Almighty God!
Quote from: Heisreal on January 26, 2017, 11:08:09 PM
There is only One who is perfect,
Can I assume you're referring to Jesus as the only perfect One?
If so, I submit that Jesus was, in fact, not perfect, because he lied, and he killed a perfectly good fig tree merely because it did not bear fruit out of season.
John 7:6-10 (KJV):
QuoteThen Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.yet full come.
When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
How is this not a lie?
Jesus also claimed, at his trial, that he had ever only taught openly, and never in secret, but he did teach secretly:
John 18:20
QuoteJesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
And yet, Jesus is known to have taught in such obscure ways that few if any understood what the hell he was talking about, and often demanded secrecy:
Of demons-
Mark 1:34
QuoteAnd he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Mark 3:11-12:
QuoteAnd unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.
Luke 4:41:
QuoteAnd devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Of his followers-
Matthew 16:20:
QuoteThen charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mark 8:30:
QuoteAnd he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Luke 9:21:
QuoteAnd he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
And those he healed-
Mat 8:3-4:
QuoteAnd Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mat 12:15-16:
QuoteBut when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mark 1:44:
QuoteAnd saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mark 5:43:
QuoteAnd he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.
Mark 7:36:
QuoteAnd he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;
Luke 5:14:
QuoteAnd he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Luke 8:56:
QuoteAnd her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
And the poor innocent fig tree:
Matthew 21:19-22:
QuoteAnd when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mark 11:13-14:
QuoteAnd seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
So I think Jesus was far from perfect. I could go on and on with similar proofs of my contention, but I hope this is sufficient.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 05:55:26 PMJeremiah 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
That's a promise from the Almighty God!
And just another damned lie.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 27, 2017, 06:19:10 PM
And just another damned lie.
Jeremiah 33.3 is true in my experience. But don't ask for something if you can't process the answer. You will not get the god you want. So when you reject the god you get, you aren't rejecting god, you are rejecting your projection of your own ego.
The fig tree story is a very obscure metaphor, and even I can't recall the exact explanation. But basically it has to do with following a dead faith vs a living one.
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 27, 2017, 06:16:55 PM
Can I assume you're referring to Jesus as the only perfect One?
If so, I submit that Jesus was, in fact, not perfect, because he lied, and he killed a perfectly good fig tree merely because it did not bear fruit out of season.
John 7:6-10 (KJV):
How is this not a lie?
Jesus also claimed, at his trial, that he had ever only taught openly, and never in secret, but he did teach secretly:
John 18:20
And yet, Jesus is known to have taught in such obscure ways that few if any understood what the hell he was talking about, and often demanded secrecy:
Of demons-
Mark 1:34
Mark 3:11-12: Luke 4:41:
Of his followers-
Matthew 16:20:Mark 8:30:
Luke 9:21:
And those he healed-
Mat 8:3-4:
Mat 12:15-16:
Mark 1:44:Mark 5:43:
Mark 7:36:
Luke 5:14:Luke 8:56:
And the poor innocent fig tree:
Matthew 21:19-22:
Mark 11:13-14:
So I think Jesus was far from perfect. I could go on and on with similar proofs of my contention, but I hope this is sufficient.
It's very difficult to communicate with someone who has no idea how to read and understand scripture.
Do you know the purpose of the withering fig tree?
Do you know what the fig tree represented?
Do you know why Christ came to the fig tree out of season?
Of course you don't! All you can see is our Lord killing a fig tree, and have no idea that very shortly over one million people would die in Israel with this fig tree being one of the warnings.
As for the rest of your quoted scripture, please, give me a break and gain some understanding of what you are saying.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 05:55:26 PM
God is not far away from you, Blackleaf! He is very near waiting to make Himself real to you. He didn't create you or anyone else to be a robot. He created you in His own image with a specific purpose that no one on earth can fulfill but you. He gave you free will to accept Him or reject Him, He will NOT over-ride your free will.
Jeremiah 33:3
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
That's a promise from the Almighty God!
In true Christian fashion, you fail to see the point. Is God omniscient? If so, he not only knows our actions ahead of time, but he knew every possible universe that he could have created, including some where we'd choose not to sin. Is he omnipotent? If so, he had the power to create a universe where we'd choose not to sin. Free will has nothing to do with it. He had to choose one universe out of an infinite number of possibilities, and he willingly created one where he knew the vast majority of humans would go to Hell.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 27, 2017, 07:40:12 PM
It's very difficult to communicate with someone who has no idea how to read and understand scripture.
Yes. This is just how I feel when every dumbass like you comes here and quotes scripture. Unbeliever showed their understanding of scripture. You, however, have failed to do so, yet you try to use the cop out argument, "But you're an atheist, so you just don't understand scripture." Fuck you.
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 28, 2017, 02:24:09 AM
Yes. This is just how I feel when every dumbass like you comes here and quotes scripture. Unbeliever showed their understanding of scripture. You, however, have failed to do so, yet you try to use the cop out argument, "But you're an atheist, so you just don't understand scripture." Fuck you.
If you guys are going to interpret scripture, I suggest you at least read it first instead of taking the ideas of someone else and expounding on stupidity.
Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2017, 07:24:24 PMThe fig tree story is a very obscure metaphor, and even I can't recall the exact explanation. But basically it has to do with following a dead faith vs a living one.
Exactly, it was a story - a myth - with an object lesson, a moral, just like Aesop's fables, that many tens of millions of people believe is the literal truth. As you say, "an obscure metaphor."
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 28, 2017, 02:18:08 AM
In true Christian fashion, you fail to see the point. Is God omniscient? If so, he not only knows our actions ahead of time, but he knew every possible universe that he could have created, including some where we'd choose not to sin. Is he omnipotent? If so, he had the power to create a universe where we'd choose not to sin. Free will has nothing to do with it. He had to choose one universe out of an infinite number of possibilities, and he willingly created one where he knew the vast majority of humans would go to Hell.
And God should certainly, given his vast superpowers, have been able to create a universe in which our lack of sin wouldn't have resulted in our being "robots."
And if God had only a limited omniscience and omnipotence (and omni-etcetera), then he wasn't really what we would consider a perfect God, was he? And just how do we measure whatever those limits might be? Do we simply take the word of those who claim to know God intimately? Whatever the priest/preacher says we just swallow it whole?
I think not.
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
If you guys are going to interpret scripture, I suggest you at least read it first instead of taking the ideas of someone else and expounding on stupidity.
Well, since I don't have the Holy Ghost to guide me, I have to rely on my own puny human brain to figure things out. I figure it says what it seems to say, not what I want it to say.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/06/06030422e21c6a2e16642303ac7d48ba33cd704bdb3d5f18afd3d71604abe049.jpg)
Quote from: Heisreal on January 28, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
If you guys are going to interpret scripture, I suggest you at least read it first instead of taking the ideas of someone else and expounding on stupidity.
Again, this is exactly what I think when idiots like you come here and quote scripture. Atheists know the Bible better than Christians do, because unlike you, when we read it, we're not having it fed to us in church where they tell us how to interpret it. You're the one spreading someone else's ideas without bothering to criticize those ideas yourself.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0928/In-US-atheists-know-religion-better-than-believers.-Is-that-bad
"The US Religious Knowledge Survey, released Tuesday from the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, found atheists and agnostics know more basic facts about the Bible than either Protestants or Catholics."
I was a Christian for most of my life, and I read the entire New Testament on my own time, as well as a good chunk of the Old Testament. How much of the Bible have you read on your own? Be honest. Remember, your sky daddy will know if you're lying.
I read the whole thing from cover to cover 4 times. Some parts 10 times. Some parts 20 times. and a few like Genesis chapter 1and2 too many times trying to put it all together in one neat package. ( kinda obvious that they didnt know exactly how it was supposed to happen so they included two different versions of creation)
Looks like unbeliever's expose shows a real understanding of the text. It is definitely not a repeat of someone elses stupidity. Maybe you find it offensive to have a description of Jesus that portraits him as less than perfect, but we shouldn't hide from truth even if it takes us to a place we don't want to go.
If a real god was to show up, it would not bother in the least to know he was not omnipotent, or omniscient, or the fact that he isnt even good. My reaction would be more like "Holee cow at least one of these gods is real". It would be nice if he was sorta good but Hades and Apoleon were gods too.
Bacchus is definitely worth a look-see ;-)
*sigh* The few rational parts of the Bible are those that relate to nomadic people learning to settle down in larger groups. Most of the decent advice there is just the hard-won knowledge THAT THEY ALREADY HAD LEARNED in order to live in larger groups. The religious parts are just scare tactics for the wayward ones who failed "Village 101".
Quote from: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 09:54:04 AM
*sigh* The few rational parts of the Bible are those that relate to nomadic people learning to settle down in larger groups. Most of the decent advice there is just the hard-won knowledge THAT THEY ALREADY HAD LEARNED in order to live in larger groups. The religious parts are just scare tactics for the wayward ones who failed "Village 101".
We are still failing Village 101.
Quote from: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 12:54:51 PM
We are still failing Village 101.
Hence the sad continuance of theism...
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 28, 2017, 06:21:50 PM
I was a Christian for most of my life, and I read the entire New Testament on my own time, as well as a good chunk of the Old Testament. How much of the Bible have you read on your own? Be honest. Remember, your sky daddy will know if you're lying.
Yeah, I've read the thing 3 times! Boy, I was up late that night!
Quote from: Unbeliever on January 31, 2017, 05:59:59 PM
Yeah, I've read the thing 3 times! Boy, I was up late that night!
Try the Gathas of Zoroaster ... in Avestan (ancient E Persian).
Remember how I made a thread on the reactions that atheists like me get from telling Christians they are atheists and then a Christian reacted to it and it all turned into a theology debate? I think I'm gonna add that to my list of ways Christians have reacted to me using the A word.
Now. Back to the topic at hand. Anybody had an experience with a Christian reacting to atheism lately?
I had a minor one. It was minor in that she ended up being cool with it.
There was also a bigot who really insulted me a lot. All she knew was that I was polysexual (I had been outed earlier to my neighbors and was upset and she asked) and didn't go to church (when she started saying I should go more I said I don't do church). Lots of insults and low blows later... she finally checked out my book. Yup. Woman was a librarian being loud in the library spouting close minded views and lots of things refuted by science. She was also in her 30s. I don't even wanna think what would have happened had I said I was an atheist instead of I don't go to church. My fault for not filtering like normal, but in my defense I was pretty upset already and in a pretty "fuck it" mood.
You probably handled it as good as anyone. I think your response "don't go to church" as pretty diplomatic. I would have stated ... Jesus was Jewish, so is it a synagogue you are talking about? ;-) If I visit a synagogue, I don't wear a kappah that has "heretic" written on it ;-))
Atheists come in all flavors...
Quote from: Baruch on February 04, 2017, 07:15:14 AM
You probably handled it as good as anyone. I think your response "don't go to church" as pretty diplomatic. I would have stated ... Jesus was Jewish, so is it a synagogue you are talking about? ;-) If I visit a synagogue, I don't wear a kappah that has "heretic" written on it ;-))
Lol! Oh my goodness the reaction that would get!
I googled where I live. Over 80 churches! Most were methodist and baptist (how many different interpretations of one bible interpretations can you have in one town!). The only religious buildings that wouldn't be under the Protestant umbrella (that I noticed) was 3 or 4 Mormon church and one small Catholic church. I don't think I've ever seen a synagogue in person, much less a mosque, so suggesting we go to a synagogue would get some crazy looks here (either angry, confused as they try to figure out what it is, or stunned would be my guess).
Quote from: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 04:47:28 AM
Atheists come in all flavors...
Very true. Mine would be lavender, dog saliva, and cat hair.
He Isreal, which god or gods are you talking about?
In my experience, theists react to "Atheism" harsher than atheists react to "theism". To me, theists are just annoying, ignorant, and backwards-facing. But to a theist, I am the actual proof and representative of true un-abiding satanic evil.
That's pretty harsh considering that I have never injured anyone myself but theism is filled with unremitting mass murder, hatred, and intolerance.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 11, 2017, 01:19:47 AM
In my experience, theists react to "Atheism" harsher than atheists react to "theism". To me, theists are just annoying, ignorant, and backwards-facing. But to a theist, I am the actual proof and representative of true un-abiding satanic evil.
That's pretty harsh considering that I have never injured anyone myself but theism is filled with unremitting mass murder, hatred, and intolerance.
You have to remember Christians are victims of oppression, and they take great pride in that. It's godly to be victimized for your faith, and following in the steps of Jesus dragging his own cross to the place of execution is the image they have of themselves. To do this, they need an oppressor. That's you, the spawn of Satan. And while you may not have ever caused anyone harm, it's in your heart, just like Christians are victims in their heads. We all have our roles to play.
Quote from: SGOS on February 11, 2017, 08:04:46 AM
You have to remember Christians are victims of oppression, and they take great pride in that. It's godly to be victimized for your faith, and following in the steps of Jesus dragging his own cross to the place of execution is the image they have of themselves. To do this, they need an oppressor. That's you, the spawn of Satan. And while you may not have ever caused anyone harm, it's in your heart, just like Christians are victims in their heads. We all have our roles to play.
Very nicely put! I like the idea that I can get along just fine without the theists but they sort of need me as a foil. LOL!
I go whole days without thinking about theisms (broken mostly by idiots on TV), but theists think of their god(s) daily (hourly?).
Quote from: Cavebear on February 11, 2017, 08:54:38 AM
Very nicely put! I like the idea that I can get along just fine without the theists but they sort of need me as a foil. LOL!
I go whole days without thinking about theisms (broken mostly by idiots on TV), but theists think of their god(s) daily (hourly?).
For mystics like myself, it is 24x7 ... but who is counting? The fear is, if you take your eye off the caravan driver even for a second, you will get lost from the caravan in the middle of the Sahara.
Quote from: Baruch on February 11, 2017, 08:57:49 AM
For mystics like myself, it is 24x7 ... but who is counting? The fear is, if you take your eye off the caravan driver even for a second, you will get lost from the caravan in the middle of the Sahara.
Getting separated from the caravan can result in many bad outcomes. You could be lost in a sandstorm and the rest can't find you. You could be separated and be the only survivor and likely to die as a result. Or you could have all the camels and water and be killed by bandits. None good choices.
Quote from: Cavebear on February 13, 2017, 07:30:22 AM
Getting separated from the caravan can result in many bad outcomes. You could be lost in a sandstorm and the rest can't find you. You could be separated and be the only survivor and likely to die as a result. Or you could have all the camels and water and be killed by bandits. None good choices.
There is a good old Muslim story about that ... but I won't repeat it, because ...
Everyone plays follow the leader, even so called leaders. The TV show Wagon Train proved that ;-)
Nah, that show only proved that Rowdy Yates was a hunk...
Quote from: Unbeliever on February 14, 2017, 07:31:08 PM
Nah, that show only proved that Rowdy Yates was a hunk...
And I bet you developed a hankering for the beans that Wooster could cook up ;-) Rawhide had Rowdy Yates played by Clint Eastwood. Their cook was named Wishbone. No beans about that ;-)
Wagon Train was one of those old TV shows that suggested most of the characters were sensible and could solve real problems. As opposed to the sitcoms that followed where there had to be some designated idiot (usually the father) who had to be saved by children (who had no practical experience at life, but never mind that, they told us). When THAT was insufficiently moronic, they invented reality shows.
I'm not certain what comes next, but it MIGHT be that we watch ourselves watching ourselves watching ourselves sitting in front of the TV watching ourselves watching it. And we will laugh at the fools we are watching.
Me? I have a LOT of science, nature, and history DVDs...