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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: Marc on January 07, 2017, 06:47:55 PM

Title: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2017, 06:47:55 PM
My name is Marc, and I'm Christian thinking to convert to atheist. I need help honestly and I've thought a lot about what I should do. I'm new here and I just want the atheists or christians to talk to me and help me. Thanks so much.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Hydra009 on January 07, 2017, 07:13:00 PM
Hi.

The whole process doesn't work that way, at least in my experience.  You don't intentionally become an atheist - there's no atheist conversion ceremony or anything.  You just become aware of the fact that you're no longer a theist.

You're asking for help, so what exactly do you want help with?  What goal are you trying to accomplish?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 07, 2017, 07:13:00 PM
Hi.

The whole process doesn't work that way, at least in my experience.  You don't intentionally become an atheist - there's no atheist conversion ceremony or anything.  You just become aware of the fact that you're no longer a theist.

You're asking for help, so what exactly do you want help with?  What goal are you trying to accomplish?
I know, lol. I need help deciding what's the right way to go. I'm just lost and you know I've thought what if this is BS. I just need to be convinced more. You know?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: sasuke on January 07, 2017, 08:05:38 PM
Hello Marc,
As Hydra said, deconversion is a process where you realize (at your own pace) that there are no god or gods.  There are many reasons why someone believes in the supernatural without any evidence.  It could be witnessing "miracles", hearing about miracles, good feelings and wishful thinking, some variant of Kalam's cosmological argument, an argument from morality, etc.  All of these are reasons contain a logical fallacy. I think you should examine claims about the existence of an Abrahamic God in the same way that you examine the claim that someone just saw (the original) Elvis alive.
You've only thought "what if this is BS".  If someone told you that they believe that anfadlkfnsdlkfandf is real and that if you want to live forever and have good luck, then you must sacrifice a healthy cat every few years. Otherwise you will burn in hell forever.  Your first reaction shouldn't be "what if this is BS".  Your first reaction is that this is BS until evidence supporting these seemingly ludicrous claims is put forward.
So to summarize, there are reasons right now that are preventing you from thinking clearly about your current faith.  Once you understand why these reasons are not good enough to accept the extraordinary claims of that faith, then you should be able to reject those claims just like you reject that Mohammed is a prophet, a belief shared by over a billion Muslims around the world.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Hakurei Reimu on January 07, 2017, 08:10:03 PM
YO! Welcome and shit, and don't forget your complementary t-shirt.

(rifles around for a bit)

As soon as I find them...

Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2017, 08:47:42 PM
Quote from: sasuke on January 07, 2017, 08:05:38 PM
Hello Marc,
As Hydra said, deconversion is a process where you realize (at your own pace) that there are no god or gods.  There are many reasons why someone believes in the supernatural without any evidence.  It could be witnessing "miracles", hearing about miracles, good feelings and wishful thinking, some variant of Kalam's cosmological argument, an argument from morality, etc.  All of these are reasons contain a logical fallacy. I think you should examine claims about the existence of an Abrahamic God in the same way that you examine the claim that someone just saw (the original) Elvis alive.
You've only thought "what if this is BS".  If someone told you that they believe that anfadlkfnsdlkfandf is real and that if you want to live forever and have good luck, then you must sacrifice a healthy cat every few years. Otherwise you will burn in hell forever.  Your first reaction shouldn't be "what if this is BS".  Your first reaction is that this is BS until evidence supporting these seemingly ludicrous claims is put forward.
So to summarize, there are reasons right now that are preventing you from thinking clearly about your current faith.  Once you understand why these reasons are not good enough to accept the extraordinary claims of that faith, then you should be able to reject those claims just like you reject that Mohammed is a prophet, a belief shared by over a billion Muslims around the world.

Thanks I have decided to become agnostic and yeah. Your right .
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Munch on January 07, 2017, 08:49:22 PM
Hey Marc.
We've got a lot of folks here who themselves were once part of a faith group of one kind or another, so we could probably have them give their stories on how they let go of it.

Myself, it really was just a gradual thing, I was never really a Christian and neither were my family, but it was just the done thing back in the 1980s to declare yourself religious, and schools taught religious class and made you sing hymns despite said schools not being marked as religious.
I just figured out over the years about all religions, and stopped believing in things because there was no proof for the existence of said stories, just like how as a kid learning there is no father christmas, or the money under my pillow from the tooth fairy was really mum writing tiny notes.

I'd always say just look to learning about all this stuff, look and question, and seek out answers right for you.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2017, 08:57:21 PM
Quote from: Munch on January 07, 2017, 08:49:22 PM
Hey Marc.
We've got a lot of folks here who themselves were once part of a faith group of one kind or another, so we could probably have them give their stories on how they let go of it.

Myself, it really was just a gradual thing, I was never really a Christian and neither were my family, but it was just the done thing back in the 1980s to declare yourself religious, and schools taught religious class and made you sing hymns despite said schools not being marked as religious.
I just figured out over the years about all religions, and stopped believing in things because there was no proof for the existence of said stories, just like how as a kid learning there is no father christmas, or the money under my pillow from the tooth fairy was really mum writing tiny notes.

I'd always say just look to learning about all this stuff, look and question, and seek out answers right for you.
Yeah I know. I want evidence.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 07, 2017, 09:31:43 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 07, 2017, 08:57:21 PM
Yeah I know. I want evidence.
That's a good start.  One good thing to do is to read the entire bible, and this time try to rationally understand it.  I found that when I use this attitude, it makes little sense.  Read the history of the bible; interesting and sooner or later you will learn some of what was left out and why.  Read one good atheist book.  The read a McDowell book (very pro christian) and see if you can make sense of it.  It is ultimately about you and your needs.  Do you want control over your life or do you want others telling you how to act, think and feel?  Thinking is hard, laborious, and lengthy.  Believing is super easy.  Does not that alone tell you something?

Oh--welcome--hope you stick around for awhile.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2017, 09:38:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 07, 2017, 09:31:43 PM
That's a good start.  One good thing to do is to read the entire bible, and this time try to rationally understand it.  I found that when I use this attitude, it makes little sense.  Read the history of the bible; interesting and sooner or later you will learn some of what was left out and why.  Read one good atheist book.  The read a McDowell book (very pro christian) and see if you can make sense of it.  It is ultimately about you and your needs.  Do you want control over your life or do you want others telling you how to act, think and feel?  Thinking is hard, laborious, and lengthy.  Believing is super easy.  Does not that alone tell you something?

Oh--welcome--hope you stick around for awhile.
Thanks will do!
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 08, 2017, 03:51:26 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 07, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
I know, lol. I need help deciding what's the right way to go. I'm just lost and you know I've thought what if this is BS. I just need to be convinced more. You know?

Know yourself ... Delphic Oracle
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mr.Obvious on January 08, 2017, 04:48:43 AM
Welcome to our little band of heathens.

So you say you became agnostic? Mind if I ask if you are an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist?
"Gnostic and agnostic" and "atheist or theist" are different answers to two different questions.
Though if you want to use the lable 'agnostic' as a placeholder for something, go ahead I guess. Pick your own lable.

Sorry for being pedantic about this. Its just that I called myself an agnostic for a few years, before finally realizing I'd been an atheist all that time, but I just thought agnostic was more "sound". It wasn't until I learned that atheist 'lack a belief' in God, that I realized I was one.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: PickelledEggs on January 08, 2017, 04:54:37 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 08, 2017, 04:48:43 AM
Welcome to our little band of heathens.

So you say you became agnostic? Mind if I ask if you are an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist?
"Gnostic and agnostic" and "atheist or theist" are different answers to two different questions.
Though if you want to use the lable 'agnostic' as a placeholder for something, go ahead I guess. Pick your own lable.

Sorry for being pedantic about this. Its just that I called myself an agnostic for a few years, before finally realizing I'd been an atheist all that time, but I just thought agnostic was more "sound". It wasn't until I learned that atheist 'lack a belief' in God, that I realized I was one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yetwdpsiM8Q

lol Welcome, marc
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mr.Obvious on January 08, 2017, 05:38:38 AM
Quote from: PickelledEggs on January 08, 2017, 04:54:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yetwdpsiM8Q

lol Welcome, marc

Did I use the wrong word?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Blackleaf on January 08, 2017, 07:37:58 AM
I was officially done with Christianity just last year, shortly before I joined this site. Once you've cast aside your faith goggles, you'll find it very easy to see the BS that is the Bible, and the extra-Biblical beliefs of your particular (former) denomination. Now that you've passed the threshold of doubt, I suspect you do not really need us except for assurance that there are other people out there capable of thinking for themselves.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: aitm on January 08, 2017, 07:48:59 AM
Agree with MikeCI read the babble, front to back,,,you can skip the "he begat him who begat him and yada yada....interesting to me why the babble has nearly half the book of numbers (if I recall) detailing how much and how the priests get paid... a little to obvious if you ask me.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 08, 2017, 10:58:17 AM
Quote from: aitm on January 08, 2017, 07:48:59 AM
Agree with MikeCI read the babble, front to back,,,you can skip the "he begat him who begat him and yada yada....interesting to me why the babble has nearly half the book of numbers (if I recall) detailing how much and how the priests get paid... a little to obvious if you ask me.

Ancient culture not our own.  I wouldn't have participated in the Temple cult myself, too much like John the Baptist I am.  Of course priests make a living, do you expect them to do all that liturgy and animal sacrifice for free? ;-)  But what was wrong, was they were gouging the faithful, like the sons of Eli did, before the end of the Tabernacle, when the Ark got captured by the Philistines.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 08, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 08, 2017, 04:48:43 AM
Welcome to our little band of heathens.

So you say you became agnostic? Mind if I ask if you are an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist?
"Gnostic and agnostic" and "atheist or theist" are different answers to two different questions.
Though if you want to use the lable 'agnostic' as a placeholder for something, go ahead I guess. Pick your own lable.

Sorry for being pedantic about this. Its just that I called myself an agnostic for a few years, before finally realizing I'd been an atheist all that time, but I just thought agnostic was more "sound". It wasn't until I learned that atheist 'lack a belief' in God, that I realized I was one.

Probably, an agnostic. I am going to read the Bible more like you guys said. I am also sorry about the poor grammar I'm only 15 and I don't really have a good grammar. I decided to become agnostic now, because right now I'm basically basing it on the church I go to that requires a 20$ offerings each person. That's really what irritates me because I thought offerings were to be anything. I feel that when I read the Bible more, I will get more educated on the Bible and probably become an atheist I'm unsure. Thanks for all the help!
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: PickelledEggs on January 08, 2017, 11:40:38 AM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 08, 2017, 05:38:38 AM
Did I use the wrong word?
I don't think you used the wrong word, every time I hear it see the word "pedantic", I think of that scene, though lol.

Sent from your mom.

Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 08, 2017, 11:45:50 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
Probably, an agnostic. I am going to read the Bible more like you guys said. I am also sorry about the poor grammar I'm only 15 and I don't really have a good grammar. I decided to become agnostic now, because right now I'm basically basing it on the church I go to that requires a 20$ offerings each person. That's really what irritates me because I thought offerings were to be anything. I feel that when I read the Bible more, I will get more educated on the Bible and probably become an atheist I'm unsure. Thanks for all the help!
15.  Goodness, you have a lifetime to figure this out.  But you are on the right track.  Writing here, trying to explain what you think and feel will make your grammar better--and sharpen you thinking skills.  Reading the bible with a critical eye will do the same.  If you really want better English skills, then write--and read.  Read books that interest you--but read.  Explaining things to people makes it easier to express yourself and to come in touch with what you really think.  And consider this--if you want to sharpen a skill or acquire a new one, teach it to somebody else.  I promise you that will sharpen that skill quite quickly.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 08, 2017, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2017, 11:45:50 AM
15.  Goodness, you have a lifetime to figure this out.  But you are on the right track.  Writing here, trying to explain what you think and feel will make your grammar better--and sharpen you thinking skills.  Reading the bible with a critical eye will do the same.  If you really want better English skills, then write--and read.  Read books that interest you--but read.  Explaining things to people makes it easier to express yourself and to come in touch with what you really think.  And consider this--if you want to sharpen a skill or acquire a new one, teach it to somebody else.  I promise you that will sharpen that skill quite quickly.
I know I'm young it's just I've known these lies just I wanted to keep my family happy since they are very religious. Yes, I love reading , hate writing and love learning. I could never tell them I'm an agnostic. I would get probably put up for adoption.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Blackleaf on January 08, 2017, 02:05:29 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
Probably, an agnostic. I am going to read the Bible more like you guys said. I am also sorry about the poor grammar I'm only 15 and I don't really have a good grammar. I decided to become agnostic now, because right now I'm basically basing it on the church I go to that requires a 20$ offerings each person. That's really what irritates me because I thought offerings were to be anything. I feel that when I read the Bible more, I will get more educated on the Bible and probably become an atheist I'm unsure. Thanks for all the help!

1. Holy shit. You're 15 and already figuring out that your religion is full of it? Well, I guess people your age are better able to think outside of the box, and more flexible for change. Maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

2. Holy shit. They REQUIRE an offering? Of $20? That's outrageous. Almost as outrageous as Joel Osteen selling tickets for seats in his church.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 08, 2017, 02:30:25 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2017, 01:14:27 PM
I know I'm young it's just I've known these lies just I wanted to keep my family happy since they are very religious. Yes, I love reading , hate writing and love learning. I could never tell them I'm an agnostic. I would get probably put up for adoption.
Good for you for figuring some of this stuff out.  You must have something on the ball--that's an old person's way of saying--'Hey, you sound like a pretty terrific kid!'  I would not suggest you letting your family in on your concerns in this area.  Just work out your own personal slant on this and just be polite and mannerly with the folks--sounds like you already have a handle on that tho.  Another promise I can make is that if you can turn your dislike of writing it will serve you well all your life no matter what it is you do.  If you can write well in this day and age, you will be universally thought to be an intelligent person.  And that never is a bad thing.  I hated writing, but I kept at it until I became at least an average writer--and that held me in good stead all my life.  Oh, learn to type as well.  Good having you here.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: SGOS on January 08, 2017, 03:37:01 PM
Welcome Marc,

For me, my journey started when I started wondering if there was a god or not.  That started very early in my pre teens.  It seems like the most important question to the whole thing.  I really wanted to know.  I came from a very religious family, and I considered myself a Christian, because my family members were all Christians.  Of course, none of that training means there is a god.  It was easy to say, "There is a god," since I had that drilled into me, but that's not the same thing as there being a god.  In other words, I put my belief aside in my search for proof.  Belief is just belief.  It's not the same as knowing something, although many people think they are the same.  They are not.

While this was going on, there was always a strong undercurrent of suspicion on my part.  There was something about all the Bible stories, and my parents informing me of the nature of God that sounded just a wee bit fishy, like someone was making it up.  Yet in America one is surrounded by believers.  That should count for something, except that it doesn't prove anything about the existence of a god.  On the other hand, most of the entire world believes in a different god, and they believe that just as sincerely or insincerely, as all the people I knew that said they believed in the Christian god.

Now that leads to three possibilities.  Either Christians are right, and all those others are wrong.  Or all those others are right and Christians are wrong.  Or everyone is wrong.  It seems like there could be a fourth possibility that everyone is right, but since these beliefs are mutually exclusive, someone has to be wrong, so I excluded that early on.  So the problem always comes back to whether any god exists at all.

One thing that all gods have in common, however, is that there is no actual evidence for any of them, which kind of suggests that all of them are false.  People say there is evidence, the most compelling to me is that they have actually experienced god in some personal way, usually some feeling accompanied by a sort of ecstasy that tells them they have found a god.  However, as much as I recognize their epiphany, that doesn't prove god either.  People just get warm fuzzies now and then, myself included, but it can be written off as a self induced jolt of dopamine to the body.  While I realize others find this compelling, it doesn't prove anything to me.

I searched for such an experience for years, even had some temporary successes, but unfortunately, none of those successes proved anything either.  They were just biochemical reactions.  As I got older, I learned about logical fallacies.  They are published in list form all over the internet.  My first encounter was with Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit."  It's nothing special.  It's just another list of logical fallacies with a short description of each.  Look it up, and see how almost every logical fallacy can be a superficially compelling "proof" that there is a god.  The problem is that being fallacies, they don't prove anything.  They cancel out all logical attempts to justify a god.

In a way, I kind of wish there was a god, but there just isn't any credible evidence to be found.  You would think an all powerful being would be a Hell of a lot more straight forward about making himself known, especially if he wants everyone to believe in him.  But instead he seems to be spending all his energy on hiding, like he wants us to believe, but it has to be through some mystical process.  Tin foil hat technologies have proved to be ineffective at detecting god.  But it's the kind of process he seems to want to be known by.  I know God is beyond our comprehension and all, but a perfect being should be able to communicate perfectly, and do it without requiring weird mental gymnastics.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 08, 2017, 05:11:44 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2017, 01:14:27 PM
I know I'm young it's just I've known these lies just I wanted to keep my family happy since they are very religious. Yes, I love reading , hate writing and love learning. I could never tell them I'm an agnostic. I would get probably put up for adoption.

You aren't the only young person to visit, but most of us are 2x to 4x older.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 08, 2017, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 08, 2017, 05:11:44 PM
You aren't the only young person to visit, but most of us are 2x to 4x older.
Thanks for the support, and wow I'm really the youngest then lol
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Munch on January 08, 2017, 07:46:40 PM
You know Marc, its actually really cool your starting to questing stuff. That might seem an odd things considering everyone questions things, but when I was 15, I was more like someone who just took everyone on board without really questioning it, that because someone older then me has lived longer they must know more. Took me probably until I was like 21 to start to question stuff, why vote for this party when they don't have what I would like in mind, why buy this news paper when all they print his horseshit, why give money to a charity when they never seem to use it for what they claim.

(https://weirdlywiredworld.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/question-everything.png)

I'm always happy when my nephews asks how things work, because their trying to figure it out, and best thing about the internet is I can show them examples of it, like when my nephew thought the earth was the center of the universe and the sun went around it, I showed him and he started to ask a load of stuff about it, which I was glad to show him.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 08, 2017, 08:13:58 PM
Quote from: Munch on January 08, 2017, 07:46:40 PM
You know Marc, its actually really cool your starting to questing stuff. That might seem an odd things considering everyone questions things, but when I was 15, I was more like someone who just took everyone on board without really questioning it, that because someone older then me has lived longer they must know more. Took me probably until I was like 21 to start to question stuff, why vote for this party when they don't have what I would like in mind, why buy this news paper when all they print his horseshit, why give money to a charity when they never seem to use it for what they claim.

(https://weirdlywiredworld.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/question-everything.png)

I'm always happy when my nephews asks how things work, because their trying to figure it out, and best thing about the internet is I can show them examples of it, like when my nephew thought the earth was the center of the universe and the sun went around it, I showed him and he started to ask a load of stuff about it, which I was glad to show him.
Yeah, it's just irritating I have to use my allowance for church. I gent $20.00 a week and it is to be used for church so you know. I have to wait for Christmas just to get something I want.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 08, 2017, 08:21:43 PM
Go to the bank and get 10 $2 bills.  Then learn to palm the $2 bill so that it looks like you gave 20. :))
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 08, 2017, 09:33:01 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 08, 2017, 08:21:43 PM
Go to the bank and get 10 $2 bills.  Then learn to palm the $2 bill so that it looks like you gave 20. :))
lol alright. I'd probably get a beat from my mom and dad though :(
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 08, 2017, 11:55:46 PM
I am a fellow 15 year old. I started my journey in atheism when I was 13 for the same reasons that you are now considering for yourself. My process went almost exactly like yours right now going for a Protestant Christian to an agnostic theist, and then I realized that I was lying to myself and jumped to atheism. I feel personally that the best ways to really get a good look at Christianity is to read the Bible as any other literary work and then read an atheistic perspective on it. Another good thing is to look at other religious text's and ways of thinking to see similarities. Listening to debates can help too but it's all really just a preference on which direction you want to take.

The life of being an atheist does differ a lot from when I was an atheist. For instance, I once wanted to be a musical artist but as I became more skeptical I started to get more into physics and maths as a career choice. One thing that I didn't really like is that I would attack people who were religious for about the first of being a year of being an atheist, but I have since realized that I should be a little more respectful and teach other's what being an atheist means rather than trying to de-convert them.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: fencerider on January 09, 2017, 01:17:24 AM
theist always have a good excuse to get the missing person (god) out of the room.

This was posted by somebody else a few weeks ago. It was "1391 reasons Christianity is false" when I first saw it now I think it is 1408. If you like to read, read this

www.kyroot.com

lot of info I would have never found on my own
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: SGOS on January 09, 2017, 09:49:04 AM
Even as a very young Christian, I never understood all the flap about Jesus.  You have to believe in Jesus as the son of God, who is the same as God and part of a trinity, which includes the Holy Spirit, which is the same as Jesus and God.  Well, OK, that's how Christianity differs from Islam and Judaism.  Set aside the absurdity of the Trinity with its issues of split personalities, and a wispy spirit thrown in for good measure, and the real question still remains.  As I asked earlier, "Is there a god?"

Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Jews, blithely jump over this elementary question, so that they can jump straight into formulating stories, finding hidden meanings, and busying themselves with theological dissections, about the very thing they never bothered to come to grips with in the first place.  Is there a god?

I find that when I'm working on a logical analysis or trying to understand myself, it helps if I write my thoughts down in the form of a logical progression.  If I just limit myself to thinking without writing, I find myself making occasional leaps of thought that conveniently bypass troublesome concerns.  These are things that are critical links in the chain that lead to logical conclusions.  When I write it down, those weak links tend to glare at me.  If I just think without writing, it's too easy to blithely ignore the links that would make any conclusions illogical.

This is the mistake that theists make, and they do it right out of the gate.  They don't question whether God even exists before they start making shit up about him.  Well, OK, sometimes they ask the essential question, but they conveniently ignore the links that provide a logical answer regarding the existence of a god.  It seems to them they are being entirely logical.  It's part of the human condition, most people assume they are being logical, but they do so for illogical reasons.  Maybe like they assume they are logical because they have good intentions.  I dunno, but they just don't seem to see how lost they are in their reasoning.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 09, 2017, 10:20:16 AM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 08, 2017, 11:55:46 PM
I am a fellow 15 year old. I started my journey in atheism when I was 13 for the same reasons that you are now considering for yourself. My process went almost exactly like yours right now going for a Protestant Christian to an agnostic theist, and then I realized that I was lying to myself and jumped to atheism. I feel personally that the best ways to really get a good look at Christianity is to read the Bible as any other literary work and then read an atheistic perspective on it. Another good thing is to look at other religious text's and ways of thinking to see similarities. Listening to debates can help too but it's all really just a preference on which direction you want to take.

The life of being an atheist does differ a lot from when I was an atheist. For instance, I once wanted to be a musical artist but as I became more skeptical I started to get more into physics and maths as a career choice. One thing that I didn't really like is that I would attack people who were religious for about the first of being a year of being an atheist, but I have since realized that I should be a little more respectful and teach other's what being an atheist means rather than trying to de-convert them.
I would suggest to you that your interest in music may hold you in good stead with your study of math--I think most see a connection between the two with each enhancing the other.  Or so I've been told--my musical talent is simply in the listening. 
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Blackleaf on January 09, 2017, 10:24:17 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 09, 2017, 10:20:16 AM
I would suggest to you that your interest in music may hold you in good stead with your study of math--I think most see a connection between the two with each enhancing the other.  Or so I've been told--my musical talent is simply in the listening.

Math ability and musical talent stimulate the same brain region. Because the brain is a muscle, using it makes it better. So when a person practices music, they also improve their mental ability to perform in math.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 09, 2017, 10:25:52 AM
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 09, 2017, 10:24:17 AM
Math ability and musical talent stimulate the same brain region. Because the brain is a muscle, using it makes it better. So when a person practices music, they also improve their mental ability to perform in math.
Well, there ya go Journey. 
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: widdershins on January 09, 2017, 11:13:45 AM
In my experience people don't choose to be an atheist.  But I suppose they do stop choosing to be Christian.  Christianity is a choice.  You have to choose to remain ignorant to the facts.  Some religious faiths require more willful ignorance than others.  I would imagine it takes a whole lot of willful ignorance to be a Scientologist or a Mormon, for instance.  Or any of the "Bible literalist" faiths.  You have to actively work to keep your faith, or at least just not think about it.

Atheism, on the other hand, is just a lack of beliefs.  You don't choose not to have something so much as you choose to discard that thing, I suppose.  But for me, atheism wasn't something I particularly wanted.  It was a realization I came to.  I realized that I had chosen wrong the first time when I chose the religion of my parents.  I realized that the things they said and did and believed didn't match with what the Bible said.  They believed that certain things were in the Bible which just weren't there.  They taught a rejection of science, which I found ignorant.  I realized they were wrong.  I never chose to be an atheist.  It happened while I was looking into Christianity to see if I could find "the one true religion".  And after talking to a few people about it I simply came to the conclusion that all religions were the same.  They all chose which parts of the Bible to follow and which parts to ignore.  What's more, a dozen people could read the same passage in the Bible and make a dozen different arguments for a dozen different meanings.

So I would say, be what makes you happy.  And if you were in a fundamentalist religion, one of the "holy roller" religions, one of the religions that separates you from anyone outside of the church, I would gets some counseling.  It took me about a decade to get over the shit my religion had done to me.  I didn't even realize that I was messed up, but it left me with extreme feelings of self-loathing and depression.  They did teach me, after all, that I was worthless, that only God gave me value.  So without God everything which gave me value was gone.  I was angry and depressed and just generally messed up.  If I had known then what I know now I would not have had to go through a decade of self-discovery to fix the issues myself.  I would have had professional help.  But at the time I didn't even know there was a problem.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 09, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Quote from: Blackleaf on January 09, 2017, 10:24:17 AM
Math ability and musical talent stimulate the same brain region. Because the brain is a muscle, using it makes it better. So when a person practices music, they also improve their mental ability to perform in math.

Thanks for that. I've heard of something like this before, I just kind of threw it out though.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 09, 2017, 06:40:30 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 08, 2017, 11:55:46 PM
I am a fellow 15 year old. I started my journey in atheism when I was 13 for the same reasons that you are now considering for yourself. My process went almost exactly like yours right now going for a Protestant Christian to an agnostic theist, and then I realized that I was lying to myself and jumped to atheism. I feel personally that the best ways to really get a good look at Christianity is to read the Bible as any other literary work and then read an atheistic perspective on it. Another good thing is to look at other religious text's and ways of thinking to see similarities. Listening to debates can help too but it's all really just a preference on which direction you want to take.

The life of being an atheist does differ a lot from when I was an atheist. For instance, I once wanted to be a musical artist but as I became more skeptical I started to get more into physics and maths as a career choice. One thing that I didn't really like is that I would attack people who were religious for about the first of being a year of being an atheist, but I have since realized that I should be a little more respectful and teach other's what being an atheist means rather than trying to de-convert them.

Wow, I am in love with science and love everything about it. Thanks for sharing your experience :)
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 09, 2017, 06:51:24 PM
You're welcome Marc, I'm happy to share.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 10, 2017, 12:01:36 AM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 09, 2017, 06:51:24 PM
You're welcome Marc, I'm happy to share.

Oh my gosh, he sent videos of atheist reading he bible and proves to me how stupid what they were reading the Bible and I'm convinced the Bible is shit. Oh my god, how stupid I was in believing in this.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 12:29:31 AM
I think I'm doing good things
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Hydra009 on January 10, 2017, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: Marc on January 10, 2017, 12:01:36 AMOh my gosh, he sent videos of atheist reading he bible and proves to me how stupid what they were reading the Bible and I'm convinced the Bible is shit. Oh my god, how stupid I was in believing in this.
It's what people were raised to believe, so don't be too hard on them or yourself.  Hell, I wish I figured it out in my teens.  I had to wait until the mid-20s for that revelation.  Apparently, it took a while for me to pick up on biblical contradictions and inaccuracies.

With in mind, watch the arguments theists use to defend their holy book.  It usually doesn't go well for the defender.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Munch on January 10, 2017, 12:11:02 PM
I think the best argument you can have against Christianity is, no matter if you believe in the stories of the bible or not, it takes an extreme level of denialism to read the bible, and deny the twisted and fucked up things god brought down on people. from flooding the world, to turning people into salt, to opening the earth and killing thousands of people.

QuoteIn Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and animals.
In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.
In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.
In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant.
In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they are allowed to rape as spoils of war.
In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them.

And yet, Christians want to call out their god as 'good'. Usually using the phrase of 'well god works in mysterious way'. You know who else worked in mysterious way? Ed Gein.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Hydra009 on January 10, 2017, 12:18:12 PM
Quote from: Munch on January 10, 2017, 12:11:02 PMI think the best argument you can have against Christianity is, no matter if you believe in the stories of the bible or not, it takes an extreme level of denialism to read the bible, and deny the twisted and fucked up things god brought down on people. from flooding the world, to turning people into salt, to opening the earth and killing thousands of people.
Noah's flood is twisted and fucked up?  You mean the most moral story ever told?  Surely you jest!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lmi4YJo1tU
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: trdsf on January 10, 2017, 12:52:42 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 08, 2017, 11:04:44 AM
Probably, an agnostic. I am going to read the Bible more like you guys said. I am also sorry about the poor grammar I'm only 15 and I don't really have a good grammar. I decided to become agnostic now, because right now I'm basically basing it on the church I go to that requires a 20$ offerings each person. That's really what irritates me because I thought offerings were to be anything. I feel that when I read the Bible more, I will get more educated on the Bible and probably become an atheist I'm unsure. Thanks for all the help!

Go you!  When I was 15 I was still a pretty devout Catholic, although I had trouble processing why, if the god we were taught about sees what's in our hearts and judges by that, it was necessary to deck out churches in silver and gold and all.  I mean, a quonset hut should have been good enough if it wasn't about the money.

As far as the bible goes, I recommend reading it as literature, not even explicitly looking for the logical, philosophical and/or factual faults.  Some bits of it are awful plods through minutiæ (like Numbers) but there is some soaring poetry in Psalms and Song of Solomon, and Revelation is somewhere between a fantasy masterpiece and an acid trip, and it reads well to a Grateful Dead space from the mid '70s.

Just avoid Paul, though for some fun online reading, look up 'where Paul contradicts Jesus' -- noting that Paulian teaching holds sway over the vast majority of xian churches, not Jesus'.

Anyway, welcome!
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 04:17:01 PM
Quote from: trdsf on January 10, 2017, 12:52:42 PM
Go you!  When I was 15 I was still a pretty devout Catholic, although I had trouble processing why, if the god we were taught about sees what's in our hearts and judges by that, it was necessary to deck out churches in silver and gold and all.  I mean, a quonset hut should have been good enough if it wasn't about the money.

As far as the bible goes, I recommend reading it as literature, not even explicitly looking for the logical, philosophical and/or factual faults.  Some bits of it are awful plods through minutiæ (like Numbers) but there is some soaring poetry in Psalms and Song of Solomon, and Revelation is somewhere between a fantasy masterpiece and an acid trip, and it reads well to a Grateful Dead space from the mid '70s.

Just avoid Paul, though for some fun online reading, look up 'where Paul contradicts Jesus' -- noting that Paulian teaching holds sway over the vast majority of xian churches, not Jesus'.

Anyway, welcome!

Reading it like a literary piece is a much better way to read the bible because you get to see in order of event how terrifying the entire Bible can actually be. Reading other religious texts after the fact is also good because at that point, you get to see similarities between them.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2017, 07:38:14 PM
Yes, religious texts are literature.  Maybe not everyone's favorite genre.  I read lots of things, not just religious things.  By reading literature (not watching animation or TV or ...) you use your mind to make pictures in your own head.  Your only iPod is your own psyche, the capital I.  Remember also, that biography and history aren't truth, that they are also branches of literature.  The living people are the Truth ... and no book can do them or us justice.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: aitm on January 10, 2017, 08:26:44 PM
Look at people like popsthebuilder guy, everything he reads he makes sure reinforces his fragile beliefs. Everything he has to study has already been approved for him. All his "evidence" has been curried to match the findings so there is no "regrettable" endings.

After reading the babble, you have to wonder where all the gods came from and why. Why and how is pretty easy to follow if you get into some early history. Places like Gobleki tepi have been around for over 8,000 years and is believed to be one of the first places on earth used for group worship. Why can be followed though the evolution of religion, cave drawings 35,000 years old suggest early animism, and we gradually graduated into totenism, the aborigines and american natives were untouched by other civilizations for tens of thousands of years and their "religions" remained static so we can pretty much see what they believed today as what they did thousands of years ago.

You can go further into the study of how and when the human starts to be cognizant and can begin to recognize reality and differentiate between what will happen and what should happen following normal processes. These studies done on children show us how our ancestors came to animism, how children attach humans emotions and personalities to things and at what ages they start to become "aware". We have pretty much the path of the how and why. Now add the size of the universe and our pitiful stature in our own galaxy let alone the universe, the idea of a grand wizard creating a universe but being stymied by a womans period is rather laughable, but it is really embarrassing that so many actually are so mentally weak as to find this a viable answer.

Go and find out for yourself. Nothing else will satisfy an intelligent person. Don't let your self be convinced by others like Pops did, follow the evidence, there is alot of it.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Who is this pops person you speak of? Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 10, 2017, 09:13:07 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Who is this pops person you speak of? Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.

Dog fail .. bad dog! (AITM).  His comment should have been in another string, not this one.  Popsthebuilder = Pops.

Yes, we never run of out things to learn.  One of my favorite things in life.  And often we get to relearn the same things over and over ;-)
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: aitm on January 10, 2017, 10:03:10 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes,

I don't see it that way at all. The religious never find the final answer..they just make one up. All science does is process the information, and present the findings. Then the rest of the scientific community examine how it effects various fields. The religious see the findings and get together to find a way to make it fit their beliefs. Remember, there are a lot more religious people than non......therefore there is more money to be culled from the gullible. People like Ken Hamm make a lot of money thanks to this fact, whereas real scientists are content to seek the truth.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 11:10:37 PM
I'm just saying that once being religious myself and thinking, quite stupidly, that I had all the answer's, I can find it kind of disappointing knowing that I will never have all the answers. It is however, a lot more liberating knowing that I will never have all the answer's, and will always be able to questing the universe around us. The religious population, that's not going to change in size for a few more generations.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Hydra009 on January 11, 2017, 12:45:38 AM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PMNot being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.
There is a certain freedom in knowing that there is always plenty left to explore.

Science is like a sailboat on the open ocean - you never know what new wonder will be encountered next.  True, it is dangerous, but it's the only path to new lands.  Religion is like a petty shepherd stuffing his flock into a cramped and filthy pen, fearful of losing sight of the shore and forcing himself to be content with the world he has always known.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on January 11, 2017, 01:57:58 AM
Never been a theist myself, Marc, but I think the "Why I Am No Longer Christian" (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A) series of videos would be of use to you. The series totals a couple hours, and the individual videos aren't particularly long.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: SGOS on January 11, 2017, 09:26:15 AM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 08:55:59 PM
Who is this pops person you speak of? Not being able to find a final answer to everything is also quite disappointing sometimes, but I like countering it with the fact that I will never run out of things to learn.

I'm quite content not knowing that I am not all knowing, which is not quite the same thing as not knowing a specific answer to a specific question.  For example, "How did life begin?"  While I can accept my ignorance on that point, I would have to admit to a "subtle longing to know," but as Hydra points out, "there's a freedom in knowing there's so much more to learn."  And I would add that it's also inspiring to think about mankind's accomplishments, and all of the many things we have learned since we lived in caves.  It's quite stunning that man is actually capable of mustering the mental discipline and finding the emotional restraint to thoughtfully examine the things he observes, without jumping to unwarranted assumptions.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 10, 2017, 11:10:37 PM
I'm just saying that once being religious myself and thinking, quite stupidly, that I had all the answer's, I can find it kind of disappointing knowing that I will never have all the answers. It is however, a lot more liberating knowing that I will never have all the answer's, and will always be able to questing the universe around us. The religious population, that's not going to change in size for a few more generations.

It is normal for young people to think they have all the answers, or that adults are stupid.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 03:34:38 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 12:40:32 PM
It is normal for young people to think they have all the answers, or that adults are stupid.

I'm not saying I think I have all the answers any more though, I know I'll never be able to definitely say that a certain answer is the absolutely correct answer but I can answer questions to a degree of what knowledge I've acquired. Not that they'll be the smartest answers.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 07:38:09 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 03:34:38 PM
I'm not saying I think I have all the answers any more though, I know I'll never be able to definitely say that a certain answer is the absolutely correct answer but I can answer questions to a degree of what knowledge I've acquired. Not that they'll be the smartest answers.

Experience is the best teacher ... but it requires blood letting ;-(
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 07:38:09 PM
Experience is the best teacher ... but it requires blood letting ;-(

So if someone were to cut their hand off, would that be a greater experience than a thousand small cuts?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 08:01:14 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 07:41:25 PM
So if someone were to cut their hand off, would that be a greater experience than a thousand small cuts?

Depends on if you are a sadist or an Apache warrior ;-(  A famous legendary early Roman soldier burned his hand off, to intimidate his captors.  This is what G Gordon Liddy went around doing, burning his hand in candles to impress chicks, back before Watergate.

Of course, some forms of experience are just thoughts in your head or dreams even.  Without experience, you are basically unconscious.  But I was leaning toward the kind of experience that isn't a thought in your head, or a dream ... that empirically corroborates opinions.  Does ice float on water?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 08:12:53 PM
Is it possible to be a sadist and a masochist at the same time? If so, which one would give the most memorable experience? What defines an experience if there are no living organisms to keep track of them? Are you experiences and my experience even happening at all? If so, what would you qualify to be a real experience? If not, what are witnessing and how are we thinking? Will there ever be a way to view what we call another person's experience? If so, what would it weight and how much would it cost, and what would the other person be experiencing while you experience his experience?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 08:18:52 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 08:12:53 PM
Is it possible to be a sadist and a masochist at the same time? If so, which one would give the most memorable experience? What defines an experience if there are no living organisms to keep track of them? Are you experiences and my experience even happening at all? If so, what would you qualify to be a real experience? If not, what are witnessing and how are we thinking? Will there ever be a way to view what we call another person's experience? If so, what would it weight and how much would it cost, and what would the other person be experiencing while you experience his experience?

You have great potential.  Great minds have been thinking over this issue (not the sadist/masochist part) for hundreds of years.  Keep thinking about it, and get back to us.  The only thing wrong to say here ... is that I have an answer, let alone the answer ... and I am going to generously bestow it on you.  Do you know about George Berkeley?  He was writing about this back in 1700.  Also David Hume, who was writing back in 1750.

The perfect sadist/masochist encounter ... the masochist begs his mistress ... "please whip me" ... the mistress replies ... "no".

Yes, I could give you my answer, but you wouldn't understand it, because it isn't your answer.  But I will give you a hint ...

In the second (1980) Star Wars movie ... Yoda doesn't go far enough.  I believe I am talking to a young man, as Yoda was ... "made of flesh you are not, incarnate future you are".  Unless of course Luke kills himself while accidentally practicing with his lightsaber.  Then Yoda will sadly intone ... "Darwin example you were".
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Mike Cl on January 11, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 07:41:25 PM
So if someone were to cut their hand off, would that be a greater experience than a thousand small cuts?
Well, they would know not to do that again.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 11:02:16 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 11, 2017, 08:18:52 PM
You have great potential.  Great minds have been thinking over this issue (not the sadist/masochist part) for hundreds of years.  Keep thinking about it, and get back to us.  The only thing wrong to say here ... is that I have an answer, let alone the answer ... and I am going to generously bestow it on you.  Do you know about George Berkeley?  He was writing about this back in 1700.  Also David Hume, who was writing back in 1750.

The perfect sadist/masochist encounter ... the masochist begs his mistress ... "please whip me" ... the mistress replies ... "no".

Yes, I could give you my answer, but you wouldn't understand it, because it isn't your answer.  But I will give you a hint ...

In the second (1980) Star Wars movie ... Yoda doesn't go far enough.  I believe I am talking to a young man, as Yoda was ... "made of flesh you are not, incarnate future you are".  Unless of course Luke kills himself while accidentally practicing with his lightsaber.  Then Yoda will sadly intone ... "Darwin example you were".

But could a single person simultaneously be a sadist and a masochist?
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Blackleaf on January 11, 2017, 11:07:05 PM
Quote from: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 11:02:16 PM
But could a single person simultaneously be a sadist and a masochist?

Yes, people can be both. I believe in some circles (the "50 Shades of Grey" type), they are referred to as "switches" because they can switch between roles of top and bottom.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Journey_To_Mars on January 11, 2017, 11:13:09 PM
Okay thank you, that's all I really wanted to know.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Marc on January 17, 2017, 09:43:35 PM
Thanks everyone :)
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: Marc on January 17, 2017, 09:43:35 PM
Thanks everyone :)
Marc, atheism isn't a journey or a belief.  It is nonconcern with superstition.  I never was theist.  I knew people went to churches, but it never interested me.  The idea of atheism occurred to me when I was about 12.  I knew a belief in a deity didn't match what I knew about the world, but I didn't have a term for it.  Just one day the question of a deity really came to my mind and I thought it didn't make much sense. 

It took months to even discover the term "atheist".  Well, we didn't have the internet in 1962.  I just knew without much concern that I wasn't a deity-believer. It just made sense to me.

I could give a lot of reasons, but that's not the point.  Either you think that there is some sort of "power" out there somewhere or you don't. And I don't.  I think the universe is pretty much what we see, that there may or may not be other life out there, and that that our lives are just what they seem...

Nothing more, but also nothing less than that.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 12:53:21 PM
One's intuition is who we truly are.  It is out of the unconscious.  The conscious mind is just mental masturbation.  Discussion is masturbation in pubic ;-)
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 01:49:25 PM
Quote from: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 12:53:21 PM
One's intuition is who we truly are.  It is out of the unconscious.  The conscious mind is just mental masturbation.  Discussion is masturbation in pubic ;-)

Au Contraire!  The conscious mind is what separates us from, um, pre-us.  Ask any spider monkey.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Unbeliever on January 31, 2017, 06:13:56 PM
Hi Marc!


I was once on fire for God - until reason came along and put out the flames.

I didn't choose to stop believing, I just woke up one morning and realized that I no longer did believe. I've been an unbeliever ever since.

I hope you find what you need.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on January 31, 2017, 01:49:25 PM
Au Contraire!  The conscious mind is what separates us from, um, pre-us.  Ask any spider monkey.

Yes, they shamelessly do that ... that in public.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 04:52:00 AM
Quote from: Baruch on January 31, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
Yes, they shamelessly do that ... that in public.

Well, imagine doing everything you do in private, in public... 24/7 365/lifetime.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 09:02:04 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 04:52:00 AM
Well, imagine doing everything you do in private, in public... 24/7 365/lifetime.

What fur? ;-)
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 10:29:42 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 09:02:04 AM
What fur? ;-)

Because you said "in public".
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 11:35:01 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 10:29:42 AM
Because you said "in public".

Well, animals sometimes do want privacy ... they aren't savage beasts, unlike humans.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 11:37:04 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 11:35:01 AM
Well, animals sometimes do want privacy ... they aren't savage beasts, unlike humans.

You haven't seen my cats using the litter boxes.  Or cleaning themselves after.  They have no concept of privacy.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 11:48:02 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 11:37:04 AM
You haven't seen my cats using the litter boxes.  Or cleaning themselves after.  They have no concept of privacy.

You have seen them take their fur off, and they used a washing machine to clean their pelt? ;-))
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Quote from: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 11:48:02 AM
You have seen them take their fur off, and they used a washing machine to clean their pelt? ;-))

Your cats don't have their own washing machine?  They call it a tongue.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 12:17:54 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Your cats don't have their own washing machine?  They call it a tongue.

I particularly like where they have to clean their own ass and dick.  They hate dogs because dogs laugh at that.  Of course dogs don't clean themselves, they clean each other, and like to eat cat shit in the bargain ... socialist animals.
Title: Re: Hello. :(
Post by: Cavebear on February 05, 2017, 01:34:35 PM
Quote from: Baruch on February 05, 2017, 12:17:54 PM
I particularly like where they have to clean their own ass and dick.  They hate dogs because dogs laugh at that.  Of course dogs don't clean themselves, they clean each other, and like to eat cat shit in the bargain ... socialist animals.

Appaerntly, you haven't read the minutes of a business Board Meeting.  Hint:  They don't act like cats.