Hillary is done. Who do the Democrats look to next?
Maybe Michelle Obama?
EDIT: Nah. She'll be sick of politics for a while.
Quote from: Blackleaf on November 09, 2016, 02:25:54 PM
Maybe Michelle Obama?
EDIT: Nah. She'll be sick of politics for a while.
If a white woman cant make it a black woman will be even less likely.
The dems will be looking for a white man next time around. Probably one with a strong case of mouth diarrhea and an ego the size of Brooklyn. if you can't beat em, join em.
Quote from: Blackleaf on November 09, 2016, 02:25:54 PM
Maybe Michelle Obama?
EDIT: Nah. She'll be sick of politics for a while.
Love her to death, but I don't know if she is ready for the Presidency.
EDIT: She would make a good senator, maybe...
I think a white man is probably more pragmatic, than a woman or minority, next time around. Only because, if this election proved anything, it's that there are still a lot of white men who vote.
This is the fault of the Democratic Party. They are to blame for Trump. They've got work to do to fix their mistake. Here's why.
There are times when it is wise to put forward a weak candidate, such as when you know you'll lose to a strong incumbent. Think Mondale in '84 or Dole in '96. Reagan was going to win reelection, Clinton was going to win reelection. The objective then is to put forth someone credible enough to run, but someone you're willing to waste on a hopeless campaign. You have to run someone or the 3rd parties will grow and that's the worst case situation.
There are times to run a strong candidate, such as when you know the incumbent is weak or that the race is wide open. Weak incumbents are like Carter in '80 or Bush in '92. Wide open include '88, '08, and '16.
In 2004 the Democrats screwed the pooch. They should have run a Reagan/Clinton, instead they ran a Mondale/Dole. That's why we had 8 years of Bush Jr instead of 4.
'16 was wide open, which means you run a strong candidate. Instead you ran Hillary. She was not good, she was not strong, she had massive negatives. You did have a good candidate, his name was Bernie. You let Hillary conspire with Wasserman to steal the primary from him.
Had you run Bernie, Trump would have been creamed. You let the party machinery mis-read the angry mood of the voters, ran a status-quo candidate, and lost to an anti-establishment candidate.
You picked a Mondale/Dole AGAIN when you should have picked a strong candidate. This was the time to pick a strong candidate. This is an even worse replay of '04 when you should have picked a Reagan/Clinton and instead picked a Mondale/Dole.
But if you continue to blame race or gender, you'll never fix the problems that made you lose to a Trump. It wasn't that Hillary is a woman. It was that Hillary was a bad candidate. Try picking winners if you want to win. We have Trump because the Democrats made it possible.
I tend to agree, Jason. I don't know that Bernie could have won, either though. The Republican propaganda machine is so well entrenched.
But I want to see what ideas you guys have for a new candidate.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on November 09, 2016, 02:44:19 PM
This is the fault of the Democratic Party. They are to blame for Trump. They've got work to do to fix their mistake. Here's why.
There are times when it is wise to put forward a weak candidate, such as when you know you'll lose to a strong incumbent. Think Mondale in '84 or Dole in '96. Reagan was going to win reelection, Clinton was going to win reelection. The objective then is to put forth someone credible enough to run, but someone you're willing to waste on a hopeless campaign. You have to run someone or the 3rd parties will grow and that's the worst case situation.
There are times to run a strong candidate, such as when you know the incumbent is weak or that the race is wide open. Weak incumbents are like Carter in '80 or Bush in '92. Wide open include '88, '08, and '16.
In 2004 the Democrats screwed the pooch. They should have run a Reagan/Clinton, instead they ran a Mondale/Dole. That's why we had 8 years of Bush Jr instead of 4.
'16 was wide open, which means you run a strong candidate. Instead you ran Hillary. She was not good, she was not strong, she had massive negatives. You did have a good candidate, his name was Bernie. You let Hillary conspire with Wasserman to steal the primary from him.
Had you run Bernie, Trump would have been creamed. You let the party machinery mis-read the angry mood of the voters, ran a status-quo candidate, and lost to an anti-establishment candidate.
You picked a Mondale/Dole AGAIN when you should have picked a strong candidate. This was the time to pick a strong candidate. This is an even worse replay of '04 when you should have picked a Reagan/Clinton and instead picked a Mondale/Dole.
But if you continue to blame race or gender, you'll never fix the problems that made you lose to a Trump. It wasn't that Hillary is a woman. It was that Hillary was a bad candidate. Try picking winners if you want to win. We have Trump because the Democrats made it possible.
I don't agree that racism and sexism weren't a huge factor in Trumps success. His disparagement of Latinos and muslims gained him a huge following and enormous support. If Hillary Clinton had been a man she would be our next president. It may not be a direct and straightforward involvement, but racism and sexism definitely played a role in this, and considering how close some key states were it may have made all the difference.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 09, 2016, 02:39:19 PM
I think a white man is probably more pragmatic, than a woman or minority, next time around. Only because, if this election proved anything, it's that there are still a lot of white men who vote.
This conversation just went on fb 10 minutes ago:
QuoteJumpty: 'Wait, is this a punishment for voting for a black dude last time?'...another American: 'Yes. Also for gay marriage and the new health care. Too fast of an advancement for the white folk.' Me: You know what? Yes.
Remember Jumpty?
Quote from: Nonsensei on November 09, 2016, 02:56:29 PM
I don't agree that racism and sexism weren't a huge factor in Trumps success. His disparagement of Latinos and muslims gained him a huge following and enormous support. If Hillary Clinton had been a man she would be our next president. It may not be a direct and straightforward involvement, but racism and sexism definitely played a role in this, and considering how close some key states were it may have made all the difference.
Agreed. This is a good analysis.
Hmmm, I thought this thread was about Trump's apprenticeship starting on Jan. 20th. It will be fun to watch a novice squirm.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 09, 2016, 02:22:54 PM
Hillary is done. Who do the Democrats look to next?
I'm not so confident there will be a 'next.' But maybe the trend will continue of the Republicans making a big mess and then the Dems getting to clean it up, if they can.
It is, though, another first for American democracy - the first president having no experience in either government or the military.
Interesting times, indeed...
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 09, 2016, 02:53:46 PM
I tend to agree, Jason. I don't know that Bernie could have won, either though. The Republican propaganda machine is so well entrenched.
Also the scrubbing of legitimate Democratic voters from the rolls, massive media attention on Trump, and the racist factor contributed.
But mostly, the president is the billionaire's choice.
Just Like After Reconstruction, Trump Vote Highlights White Backlash to Recent Racial Progress (http://www.democracynow.org/2016/11/9/just_like_after_reconstruction_trump_vote)
(http://www.opednews.com/populum/uploadnic/nightwindsent-from-flickr-jpg_1020_20120822-97.jpg)
Gold Five:"Stay on target...Stay on target"
This thread has drifted. Still looking for candidates. Biden might have had a good shot this time, I could probably get behind him. But I refuse to believe that in a country of 300,000,000 people, we can't find a few to get excited about.
Does any of you have a Border Collie? A Labrador would do it too. They are all smarter and more loyal, definitely better looking than the possible candidates.
Sorry, Zorn. I am still too crushed to get coherent. You guys come up with something and I will tag along.
There's going to be a LOT of buyer's remorse in the coming years. Most of trumps rhetoric won't fly even with R's fully in charge. Hell, there's already people on redstate.com talking impeachment simply because he congradulated Hillary instead of calling for her to go to jail..
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 09, 2016, 04:12:34 PM
Does any of you have a Border Collie? A Labrador would do it too. They are all smarter and more loyal, definitely better looking than the possible candidates.
Sorry, Zorn. I am still too crushed to get coherent. You guys come up with something and I will tag along.
Vote for me. I promise you this, that and the other thing. If it worked for trump it can work for me too.
Well I saw the fear of impeachment in his face ffs. It was written all over during his speech, it was so odd and loud. Nothing is gonna happen to him, but if they keep hard pushing him with destructive campaigns after he won big, they will create more trouble for everyone.
Or may be it is just the first day so it is normal...I dunno. Give them time.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 09, 2016, 04:14:21 PM
Vote for me. I promise you this, that and the other thing. If it worked for trump it can work for me too.
:lol: Done.
Oh fuck. I just envisioned The Apprentice, filmed in the Oval Office.
Quote from: widdershins on November 09, 2016, 04:26:53 PM
Oh fuck. I just envisioned The Apprentice, filmed in the Oval Office.
Not a bad idea, with every D office appointee in attendance ;-) I won't mind if he gropes all the women D folk either (not really).
Hmmm... let's blame the Democratic Party for 5/6th of America being okay with xenophobia, racism, sexism, bigotry of all forms, the calling for war crimes...
Yeah, makes perfect sense there Jason.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 09, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
Hmmm... let's blame the Democratic Party for 5/6th of America being okay with xenophobia, racism, sexism, bigotry of all forms, the calling for war crimes...
Yeah, makes perfect sense there Jason.
Master cadre? Spear-point of a one man revolution?
Quote from: Shiranu on November 09, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
Hmmm... let's blame the Democratic Party for 5/6th of America being okay with xenophobia, racism, sexism, bigotry of all forms, the calling for war crimes...
Yeah, makes perfect sense there Jason.
Oh come on, some of it was the health care and some the local manufacturing...etc. Everybody had various different reasons to vote for a man who doesn't actually have any real plan about any issue of the country. Stop generalising. Besides he'll make a superb, perfectly stabilised international politics! /sarc
Here is the map of all the countries Trump offended:
(Independent)
(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2016/11/09/09/donald-trump-offended.jpg)
Every read Dao De Jing? The best Emperor is the one who appears to do nothing, while the people say to each other ... "we did this". That is actual leadership.
Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2016, 08:57:23 PM
Every read Dao De Jing? The best Emperor is the one who appears to do nothing, while the people say to each other ... "we did this". That is actual leadership.
Then Trump is even more terrible then given credit for given the open-season for bigots he has sparked.
Kamala Harris.
Gavin Newsom.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 09, 2016, 09:12:55 PM
Then Trump is even more terrible then given credit for given the open-season for bigots he has sparked.
You have your bigotry, and I have the last laugh. Self awareness isn't your friend ;-)
Quote from: Atheon on November 09, 2016, 10:08:55 PM
Kamala Harris.
Gavin Newsom.
Gavin Newsom might be cool. He could galvanize the stoner vote. :weed:
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 09, 2016, 04:12:34 PM
Does any of you have a Border Collie? A Labrador would do it too. They are all smarter and more loyal, definitely better looking than the possible candidates.
Sorry, Zorn. I am still too crushed to get coherent. You guys come up with something and I will tag along.
My grandma actually raises and trains border collies. Great dogs. Loyal and dependable...better than what we elected.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 10, 2016, 01:42:34 AM
Gavin Newsom might be cool. He could galvanize the stoner vote. :weed:
Yeah, but he'd have to put tWinkies or something in all THE votingboots to ensure they show up.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 09, 2016, 03:59:55 PM
Gold Five:"Stay on target...Stay on target"
This thread has drifted. Still looking for candidates. Biden might have had a good shot this time, I could probably get behind him. But I refuse to believe that in a country of 300,000,000 people, we can't find a few to get excited about.
Biden might have been a better candidate. But it seemed like Clinton was sure to win. Everyone thought so until election night. Even the Trump people were polishing his concession speech...
I'd like Sanders to run again, if he's healthy enough, or someone with his values.
Quote from: Hurt on November 11, 2016, 03:44:59 PM
I'd like Sanders to run again, if he's healthy enough, or someone with his values.
Not too many 60s versions of New Deal politics left. I would assume that the DNC would screw him again.
Biden and Clinton and Sanders are too old for a run. It will be a surprise candidate in 2020
Wendy Davis.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 09, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
Hmmm... let's blame the Democratic Party for 5/6th of America being okay with xenophobia, racism, sexism, bigotry of all forms, the calling for war crimes...
Jason's argument was that Democrats picked a weak candidate when it was a year to pick a strong candidate. We now know Hillary was weak, because she lost, and to an asshole, at that. I read his post twice (possibly the wrong post), but I didn't see him making the claims you were objecting to.
I don't know that Sanders would have beat Trump. I don't know that all Clinton supporters would have backed him had he been given the nomination. The only thing we have to point to is that polls showed him in a slightly better position to win the national election. Actually, Sanders didn't convince me that he was a great candidate. I certainly never felt the level of inspiration towards him that I did towards Obama in his run against Clinton (well founded or not). At best, I would have guessed Sanders slightly more likely to win than Clinton, and even then, not with a high degree of confidence. But in always tight national elections, subtle differences can change the outcome. Also, for Sanders to win, his supporters would have had to turn out and vote the way they said they would, which not all Clinton supporters did.
There were no doubt better choices than Sanders or Clinton out there. Probably some actual slam dunks, but they weren't in the race. Jason was saying in a wide open year, you need to run those kinds. I realized Hillary would run again when she lost to Obama. She had established herself in the public eye. She had been around since the dark ages. And nominating her would pay homage to years of traditional Democratic political strategy.
Being we pretty much know that the Republicans are going to be a disaster and very likely crash the economy somehow it feels like the Democrats could run an old lawn mower and win 2020 if they can afford the gas by then.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 13, 2016, 07:46:36 AM
Being we pretty much know that the Republicans are going to be a disaster and very likely crash the economy somehow it feels like the Democrats could run an old lawn mower and win 2020 if they can afford the gas by then.
A free pass to any old Democratic nominee was given in 2008. A lawn mower could have won that one, but that year was the most extraordinarily bleak election year I can remember in terms of American self worth. I wouldn't wish that on another generation, no matter how much I'd like to see Republicans fail. Nothing good comes from such a rock bottom place in our history. I hope we never see that place again.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 09, 2016, 02:59:42 PM
Hmmm, I thought this thread was about Trump's apprenticeship starting on Jan. 20th. It will be fun to watch a novice squirm.
Just another worm on a fishing hook, like Obama 2009
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 09, 2016, 03:59:55 PM
Gold Five:"Stay on target...Stay on target"
This thread has drifted. Still looking for candidates. Biden might have had a good shot this time, I could probably get behind him. But I refuse to believe that in a country of 300,000,000 people, we can't find a few to get excited about.
Don't worry, they are grooming Chelsea for Mommy's old Senate seat. She will be ready for the White House in 2020 ... after a mere 2 years in the Senate. That position (taken by the carpet bagging Clintons) is a pocket borough ... a lot of rich people on the 19th tee ... like Obama.
Quote from: Shiranu on November 09, 2016, 09:12:55 PM
Then Trump is even more terrible then given credit for given the open-season for bigots he has sparked.
Bigots aren't going anywhere ... there is no progress, not even for male hating, white hating, rich hating, American hating ... (I don't mean you personally, unless you really do wear a Che under-shirt).
Quote from: SGOS on November 13, 2016, 08:16:12 AM
A free pass to any old Democratic nominee was given in 2008. A lawn mower could have won that one, but that year was the most extraordinarily bleak election year I can remember in terms of American self worth. I wouldn't wish that on another generation, no matter how much I'd like to see Republicans fail. Nothing good comes from such a rock bottom place in our history. I hope we never see that place again.
It has been 2008, every year since 2008 ... there was no recovery!
Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2016, 09:28:27 AM
It has been 2008, every year since 2008 ... there was no recovery!
Waddayamean? The Banks hardly skipped a beat and are operating as usual. Wall Street makes lots of money. The wealthy are making more money than ever, and will provide jobs for everyone.
Put a smiley after sarcasm. Everyone knows that the GDP, like the CPI and the Unemployment Rate are crooked.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on November 09, 2016, 02:22:54 PM
Hillary is done. Who do the Democrats look to next?
I hope Warren.
Quote from: SGOS on November 13, 2016, 08:16:12 AM
I hope we never see that place again.
I doubt we'll ever see any
other place...
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 15, 2016, 05:23:56 PM
I doubt we'll ever see any other place...
Relative to infinite funny money ... everyone is broke ... so yes, if you look at things the right way, the Americans and their government are broke. Prosperity based on dollars (each worth zero) and made up on volume ... is Emperor's clothes, like the Clintons choosing purple on Election Night.
I think this guy's pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqjiG4G_PZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s726kjPsfXY
Anyone close to the real truth, not the R-L dog whistle, is hated ... and Grayson is hated.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 13, 2016, 10:39:27 AM
I hope Warren.
Warren would be a great candidate. Like McGovern and Dukakis. And with the same results. And I love Warren.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 17, 2016, 03:45:47 AM
Warren would be a great candidate. Like McGovern and Dukakis. And with the same results. And I love Warren.
All three were/are bad campaigners. That has nothing to do with their other merits. But even a bad campaigner (Trump) can win.
Quote from: Baruch on November 17, 2016, 06:54:51 AM
All three were/are bad campaigners. That has nothing to do with their other merits. But even a bad campaigner (Trump) can win.
I shouldn't have said "candidate". I meant "Presidents".
Quote from: Baruch on November 16, 2016, 07:25:32 PM
Anyone close to the real truth, not the R-L dog whistle, is hated ... and Grayson is hated.
You can tell much about a person by whom they're hated.
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 17, 2016, 05:07:55 PM
You can tell much about a person by whom they're hated.
Exactly what FDR said. He said, "judge me by who my enemies are".