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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Christianity => Topic started by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 04:09:36 PM

Title: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 04:09:36 PM
I was just starting an episode of Dexter, where he is trying to enroll his son in a preschool.  It's Catholic preschool that was recommended to him, and he's checking it out.  The nun says to him, "Then Dexter, you must be a Catholic."  He gazes at a bloody crucifix of Christ with nails and red paint dripping from his wounds.  "No, he replies," while he thinks to himself, "... but I will admit it has a certain appeal."

"So you're not Catholic," confirms the nun.  "Jewish then?"; "Nope.":  "Protestant?" ; "Ahh, nope.";  Then with a befuddled look of concern, she asks, "Muslim?"; "Nope."; "Well what do you believe in then, Dexter?"

This question has always bothered me, made me uncomfortable.  I believe it's perhaps an unintended setup that leads to a "Gotcha!"  I can never remember this part, and I waited to see what he would say.  Unlike me, "He thought pensively, and replied, "Nothing."

Great answer, I think.

The reason is, there is no real intention of inquiring if you believe the sun will rise in the morning.  Basically, it's an inquiry about your own woo, which helps the theist justify his own. ie everyone has to believing something.  All the better if it's demonstrably silly.   Even if you answer, "I think the sun will rise in the morning," or something similar, the next question is, "But how do you know for sure?"  And things invariably go no where if not over a cliff at that point.

A good answer can be simply, "I don't believe in anything," because the question hides in an equivocation.  The belief being referred to is not the same as the belief a non believer is talking about.  The two meanings are more unrelated than one definition would imply.  And it requires a bit of mental gymnastics to meet at a common ground and ends up often confusing the issue.

We've had discussions about this before, but this was like an insight for me.  "I don't believe in anything," is uncomforting, but no more so than the attempted discussion is apt to be.

You could use it to embark on the semantics of "believe", but that's really a waste of time for both parties, and accomplishes little, except with an astute theist that would try and not change the subject back to, "But there is a God.  He's real.  Bla, bla.  And if you do embark on the semantics you will know where it's going in short order.

I think this helps me because it gives me a better understanding of the dynamics of such a conversation.  The resolution of the question remains out of reach, but understanding the dynamic makes it less uncomfortable.

Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on November 06, 2016, 05:37:38 PM
Yeah..I don't believe anything either..I don't even believe that I just posted what I think I did.  I'm an atheist after all.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 06:41:03 PM
There are three kinds of logical situation ... contradiction, tautology or contingency.  Mathematical proof is concerned about the first two, either reductio ad absurdum or axiomatic deduction or mathematical induction.  Contingency covers the empirical world.  Part of that world is the natural world (is human culture natural?).  One could argue that human culture is a separate subject from nature ... that humans are categorically different from ants (E O Wilson's analogy).  In my POV, ants are in the same category as humans, but not the same as a rock on the side of a mountain ... because we are both alive.

So there is justifiable belief ... which is knowledge.  Then we say we know something (but can casually say we believe it).  Unjustifiable belief isn't knowledge.  So a child might believe in Santa Claus, but can't know Santa Claus (at least in the literal way).  But one can know Santa Claus (when it is the guy at the mall listening to the wishes of little children, or dad is dressed up as Santa Claus ... or one speaks of the spirit of Christmas ... and we can have knowledge of that, but we have to be careful, because in fact we have changed the subject ... we aren't talking of a literal real Santa Claus.

So many of us here, don't have a belief in any god, or have any knowledge of any god.  And we know there are people who do believe in some god, just as we know there are children who believe in Santa Claus.  We can have knowledge of people's beliefs in gods, that is comparative religion studies.  What is affirmed is that the atheist not only has no belief in any god, but that knowledge of any god is impossible, both for the atheist and for the theist.  So knowledge of a god is not contingent, or a tautology (ontological proofs) but that it is a contradiction.

Of course all that presupposes that we know something of rationality, and of confirmed empirical reality.  Hence we might say that a theist is either irrational, or unreal or both.  So in regards to this, I can say informally I believe what I just wrote, but I think I also know it.  I am just as skeptical of belief claims of theists as I am of atheists ... you have to prove or demonstrate your point.  In my case, I don't have a standard or normal view of reality, compared to almost any other person ... the word theist and atheist don't mean the same thing to me, as it means to people who post here, either theist or atheist.  And there it stands, communication is only possible between two people who have shared experience, as I have pointed out elsewhere.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Atheon on November 06, 2016, 06:42:48 PM
I believe I'll have another beer.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Atheon on November 06, 2016, 06:42:48 PM
I believe I'll have another beer.

If it is only a belief, can you get psychosomatically drunk? ;-)
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: doorknob on November 06, 2016, 06:56:39 PM
I love Dexter and yes while watching this whole season I was curious as to where it was going. The authors take on it is definitely not the main stream take. But I think he does well not to alienate his fans. I never did finish watching season 8 I wont give away the ending but there is a reason it's the last season. And I Don't really want to see it end.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 06, 2016, 07:06:01 PM
Quote from: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 04:09:36 PM
I was just starting an episode of Dexter, where he is trying to enroll his son in a preschool.  It's Catholic preschool that was recommended to him, and he's checking it out.  The nun says to him, "Then Dexter, you must be a Catholic."  He gazes at a bloody crucifix of Christ with nails and red paint dripping from his wounds.  "No, he replies," while he thinks to himself, "... but I will admit it has a certain appeal."

"So your not Catholic," confirms the nun.  "Jewish then?"; "Nope.":  "Protestant?" ; "Ahh, nope.";  Then with a befuddled look of concern, she asks, "Muslim?"; "Nope."; "Well what do you believe in then, Dexter?"

This question has always bothered me, made me uncomfortable.  I believe it's perhaps an unintended setup that leads to a "Gotcha!"  I can never remember this part, and I waited to see what he would say.  Unlike me, "He thought pensively, and replied, "Nothing."

Great answer, I think.

The reason is, there is no real intention of inquiring if you believe the sun will rise in the morning.  Basically, it's an inquiry about your own woo, which helps the theist justify his own. ie everyone has to believing something.  All the better if it's demonstrably silly.   Even if you answer, "I think the sun will rise in the morning," or something similar, the next question is, "But how do you know for sure?"  And things invariably go no where if not over a cliff at that point.

A good answer can be simply, "I don't believe in anything," because the question hides in an equivocation.  The belief being referred to is not the same as the belief a non believer is talking about.  The two meanings are more unrelated than one definition would imply.  And it requires a bit of mental gymnastics to meet at a common ground and ends up often confusing the issue.

We've had discussions about this before, but this was like an insight for me.  "I don't believe in anything," is uncomforting, but no more so than the attempted discussion is apt to be.

You could use it to embark on the semantics of "believe", but that's really a waste of time for both parties, and accomplishes little, except with an astute theist that would try and not change the subject back to, "But there is a God.  He's real.  Bla, bla.  And if you do embark on the semantics you will know where it's going in short order.

I think this helps me because it gives me a better understanding of the dynamics of such a conversation.  The resolution of the question remains out of reach, but understanding the dynamic makes it less uncomfortable.
I think the problem, SGOS, is conditioning.  This question has bothered me, as well.  And I also came quickly to realize it was a setup.  It always ended with 'my belief is better than your belief.'.  I was conditioned in early life that it is simply accepted that all of us believe in something, even if it was just kindness.  But, I now accept the answer from me will be 'nothing'.  And when that blank look or the look of horror shows up, I simply explain that I need proof for all things.  I've heard things like--' you must believe the sun will come up tomorrow--don't you?'.  If I agree, then they point out that I believe in something.  But my answer now is that I don't 'believe' the sun will come up, I think that it will; and why?  Because it always has from the time of the formation of the planet; and if one  day it does not come up, I'll have to re-think my position.  I substitute the word 'think' for the word 'believe'.  And that proves satisfactory for me.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 07:07:24 PM
But as a human, not everything you think (or think you know) is justifiable ... it just tends to be for mature reality based folks (a minority of humanity).
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:14:55 PM
Belief is more the sustained dream like qualities we develop as kids that carries on into adulthood. It usually goes believing, to wanting to believe, to questioning said belief, then just no longer. Fantasies replaced by reason and logic.

However, in the fantasy aspect, that will often be the outcome, where as there are still things you can hope for happening, based on chance, well within the realms of possibility. Believing god will stick his finger down on you is what a lot of christians believe will happen, which has no basis for reality, but if you believe something good will come naturally, like doctors curing your moms cancer, or all your work put into study giving you that high grade, then having hope that these things will happen based on hard work and development, then theres no reason we should just be cynical to everything.

I believe there is life out in the universe, perhaps not like our own or any species on our planet, but theres bound to be other life out there, if it can even look to the stars itself is another matter, I base this upon the huge varied species on our own planet, and on the origins of how that came to be, making the chance of other planets having environments that coul support other life possible.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 07:07:24 PM
But as a human, not everything you think (or think you know) is justifiable ... it just tends to be for mature reality based folks (a minority of humanity).

I think we need some examples of such people Baruch, anyone in history or popular media?
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 07:21:09 PM
Quote from: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:16:12 PM
I think we need some examples of such people Baruch, anyone in history or popular media?

There are plenty of mature people on this blog, and many of them are reality based as well.  But we aren't an Army of One ... more like squadies on leave.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:35:46 PM
Quote from: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 07:21:09 PM
There are plenty of mature people on this blog, and many of them are reality based as well.  But we aren't an Army of One ... more like squadies on leave.

Sorry, just thought the definition of mature reality based folks was pertaining to a certain demographic, or individuals
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 07:59:11 PM
Quote from: Atheon on November 06, 2016, 06:42:48 PM
I believe I'll have another beer.

Well, here's to ya.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 08:16:01 PM
Quote from: doorknob on November 06, 2016, 06:56:39 PM
I love Dexter and yes while watching this whole season I was curious as to where it was going. The authors take on it is definitely not the main stream take. But I think he does well not to alienate his fans. I never did finish watching season 8 I wont give away the ending but there is a reason it's the last season. And I Don't really want to see it end.

The author does leave enough loose ends so that theists can get something out of that season.  And they can look upon Brother Sam as an icon of sincere belief.  Hell, I could even accept that.  And of course making Dexter the atheist doesn't hurt.  However, there are enough Christians in the series, especially that season, that are delusional murderers, but well... you know...  They just misunderstood the teachings.  So they can be easily dismissed using No true Scotsman logic.

And you should go all the way through to the end.  It's not happy, but it's not horrible or physically brutal.  Having said that it is chilling and very disconcerting.  I actually like the way they ended it.  I didn't expect it at all, and a few scenes from the very end there is a brief moment of unexpected motherly love that makes up for all that is given up and sacrificed, like somehow some way, things might be OK.  I was oddly touched by that part.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 08:26:15 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 06, 2016, 07:06:01 PM
I think the problem, SGOS, is conditioning.  This question has bothered me, as well.  And I also came quickly to realize it was a setup.  It always ended with 'my belief is better than your belief.'. 

For me it always seemed to be headed toward,  "There see, my belief is AS GOOD AS YOUR Belief:  How can you possibly question what I believe, when you believe whatever."


Quote from: Mike Cl on November 06, 2016, 07:06:01 PM
I was conditioned in early life that it is simply accepted that all of us believe in something, even if it was just kindness.  But, I now accept the answer from me will be 'nothing'.  And when that blank look or the look of horror shows up, I simply explain that I need proof for all things.  I've heard things like--' you must believe the sun will come up tomorrow--don't you?'.  If I agree, then they point out that I believe in something.  But my answer now is that I don't 'believe' the sun will come up, I think that it will; and why?  Because it always has from the time of the formation of the planet; and if one  day it does not come up, I'll have to re-think my position.  I substitute the word 'think' for the word 'believe'.  And that proves satisfactory for me.

We all get conditioned to accept that we believe in something, and we do.  But somehow we managed to also get conditioned to cherish our beliefs, and to hold on to them as almost precious.  I'm not sure if we are taught this, or if it's part of our ingrained nature, but it's not necessary to do that, and can create various degrees of complication and harm.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 08:39:52 PM
Quote from: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:14:55 PM
Belief is more the sustained dream like qualities we develop as kids that carries on into adulthood. It usually goes believing, to wanting to believe, to questioning said belief, then just no longer. Fantasies replaced by reason and logic.

That's the way it worked for me.

Quote from: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:14:55 PM
However, in the fantasy aspect, that will often be the outcome, where as there are still things you can hope for happening, based on chance, well within the realms of possibility. Believing god will stick his finger down on you is what a lot of christians believe will happen, which has no basis for reality, but if you believe something good will come naturally, like doctors curing your moms cancer, or all your work put into study giving you that high grade, then having hope that these things will happen based on hard work and development, then theres no reason we should just be cynical to everything.

I had renal cell carcinoma years ago, and I believed there would be a good chance to beat it (it's a bad one), but I had a very early detection based on a accidental discovery (a fluke, which some people identified as a miracle, to which I just roll my eyes).  It was good to believe that I would beat it, and cynicism would have been uncalled for, but the prognosis was good.  OH, I was afraid of that one little cancer cell that could have gotten out and ended the show, but I was also told they thought they would get it all.  I was also prepared to accept what could have been ultimately out of my control, so my belief was an assurance, but not a guarantee.  It was not the same as absolute knowledge of a god.

Quote from: Munch on November 06, 2016, 07:14:55 PM
I believe there is life out in the universe, perhaps not like our own or any species on our planet, but theres bound to be other life out there, if it can even look to the stars itself is another matter, I base this upon the huge varied species on our own planet, and on the origins of how that came to be, making the chance of other planets having environments that coul support other life possible.


I have that belief, but it's a close kin to what I'd call more like a very good bet.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: aitm on November 06, 2016, 09:04:45 PM
I suggest to anyone who listens…is that you attempt to write your "beliefs" down as if to your kids, as some of you don't have any, and you will find an absolutely amazing side effect. Every time you state a "fact" you find your self going back to research what you said to see if you are right. What a grand journey I had. I started writing to my daughter nearly 30 years ago, and spent almost 15 years in research. Now, have no doubt I did not go so far into such as micro biology or nuclear dynamics or such, but I dove into far more than I ever thought of. Did you know that some armadillos can postpone gestation for 5 years? Ever realize how fucked up cultures are where women actually are hoping for a male child simply because the culture demands it, and then even as mothers brutalize their daughter in law because she conceives a daughter? That's fucked up. Did you know many native american cultures enjoyed homosexual behavior and some even forced it on others? How about Alaskan tribes where kidnap and rape, ala the vikings was an accepted way of "marriage"? Cultures where parents would masterbate their children to show them how? Odd eh. Cultures where boys had to physically beat up their father in order to be considered a man?

Ever read about how cadavers were secretly bought by the top physicians of the day because the church would not allow it? Good stuff. How the Chinese at one time had the largest armada in the history of the world….in wood ships….but destroyed them because at one time they sailed all over the world giving gold and stones away as a way of showing how awesome they were, and finally realized they could not afford that? Duh. One thing leads to another and soon you are on a glorious journey into finding out if your 'beliefs" are real, make-believe or simply….not complete. Try it. Simply write one paragraph to your "child" but make sure it is factually correct….go on……make sure you are correct. Have fun.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: GSOgymrat on November 06, 2016, 09:09:43 PM
So your not Catholic," confirms the nun.  "Jewish then?"; "Nope.":  "Protestant?" ; "Ahh, nope.";  Then with a befuddled look of concern, she asks, "Muslim?"; "Nope."; "Well what do you believe in then?"

Me: I believe you ask a lot of questions.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: doorknob on November 06, 2016, 09:54:06 PM
"I believe in America. "

Obscure reference I'd be shocked if some one knew where this quote comes from. But I just couldn't resist.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 10:04:36 PM
I know America.  What I don't believe in is the American Dream.

There are lots of politicians in cheap suits who have said "I believe in America".  While taking candy from babies.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 06, 2016, 10:23:12 PM
Quote from: doorknob on November 06, 2016, 06:56:39 PM
I love Dexter and yes while watching this whole season I was curious as to where it was going.

For what it's worth, the actor who played mentor to the deranged Christian psychotic also played a small but rather effective role in Blade Runner from the 1980s.  He was Gaff, the police detective who always wore a long black cloak and managed to show up now and then after all the danger was past, leaving behind little figures made out of matchbooks.  I was always intrigued by that character.  As unessential as he was to the business at hand, Blade Runner was a bit better with him shadowing Rick Dekard around without actually getting involved in any of the work.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 08:09:23 AM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on November 06, 2016, 09:09:43 PM
So your not Catholic," confirms the nun.  "Jewish then?"; "Nope.":  "Protestant?" ; "Ahh, nope.";  Then with a befuddled look of concern, she asks, "Muslim?"; "Nope."; "Well what do you believe in then?"

Me: I believe you ask a lot of questions.
Turn it around, I like it.

I'm like OP, when asked what I believe in, I would rather dodge the question, than give an outright "I'm an atheist". Not because I feel insecure about it, but because it's such a small part of who I am, but I've experienced way too often that it is viewed as a defining and all-encompassing trait. It's not. It's just a single statement. Ask my life philosophy. Hell, ask me what football team I prefer and that answer would be more fulfilling than the atheist label, even though I don't follow any football club.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on November 07, 2016, 08:46:48 AM
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 08:09:23 AM
Turn it around, I like it.

I'm like OP, when asked what I believe in, I would rather dodge the question, than give an outright "I'm an atheist". Not because I feel insecure about it, but because it's such a small part of who I am, but I've experienced way too often that it is viewed as a defining and all-encompassing trait. It's not. It's just a single statement. Ask my life philosophy. Hell, ask me what football team I prefer and that answer would be more fulfilling than the atheist label, even though I don't follow any football club.

They capture that in the scene.  As the nun keeps asking, her eyes get wider and wider as the shear horror of what is unfolding begins to dawn on her.  She does regain her composure as one would in real life, but the point is made about the effect not believing has on people.  It creates an underlying identity of the new person, that hangs there, like a itch in a place you don't want to scratch in public.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: widdershins on November 07, 2016, 01:29:35 PM
I believe in rock 'n' roll.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: GSOgymrat on November 07, 2016, 02:20:32 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 08:09:23 AM
Turn it around, I like it.

I'm like OP, when asked what I believe in, I would rather dodge the question, than give an outright "I'm an atheist". Not because I feel insecure about it, but because it's such a small part of who I am, but I've experienced way too often that it is viewed as a defining and all-encompassing trait. It's not. It's just a single statement. Ask my life philosophy. Hell, ask me what football team I prefer and that answer would be more fulfilling than the atheist label, even though I don't follow any football club.

In the scenerio presented and by inquiring about the football team it appears the purpose iof the inquiry is to determine if the person is a member of a tribe. Are you us or them?
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 02:25:15 PM
Us
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Jack89 on November 07, 2016, 02:58:31 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 02:25:15 PM
Us
That is the correct answer.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: Jack89 on November 07, 2016, 02:58:31 PM
That is the correct answer.
It isn't so much us vs them, it's that them is an artificial separation from us.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 07, 2016, 06:17:43 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 03:06:18 PM
It isn't so much us vs them, it's that them is an artificial separation from us.

I will accept any form of separation, even imaginary.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Jack89 on November 07, 2016, 06:26:21 PM
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 03:06:18 PM
It isn't so much us vs them, it's that them is an artificial separation from us.
I agree.  Kinda like what happens with identity politics.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on November 11, 2016, 01:08:35 AM
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 07, 2016, 03:06:18 PM
It isn't so much us vs them, it's that them is an artificial separation from us.

We are all "us" with scheduled family arguments.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 17, 2016, 06:50:36 PM
Quote from: Barbara Smoker, former president of the "National Secular Society"The point is surely that the only kind of unremitting negativism is apathy, not attack. Everthing that is attacked has its obverse 'positive' side. If you are against war, you are for peace; if you are against priveledge, you are for equality; if you are against censorship, you are for freedom of speech; if you are against superstition, you are for reason; if you are against humbug, you are for honesty; and if you are against mystical obscurantism, you are for freethought.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 17, 2016, 06:59:55 PM
Some people don't understand, that Aristotle was wrong.  You can easily have 3-state or other logics ... not just Law of Excluded Middle.  In particular that happens when two things are complementary ... two ends of a spectrum, not true opposites.  Is Blue opposite of Red?

Freethought and mystical obscurantism aren't even in the same spectrum.  Freethought and dogma are.  Mystical obscurantism happens because mystical experience can't be conveyed in language.  That doesn't mean you can't experience it, only that if you do, you can't talk about it.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on November 22, 2016, 12:06:18 AM
Well, to be clear, I doubt there is anything I actually "believe" in.  Suggests welcome.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 22, 2016, 06:59:32 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 22, 2016, 12:06:18 AM
Well, to be clear, I doubt there is anything I actually "believe" in.  Suggests welcome.

I believe in worn out cynicism ... and Depends ;-)
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: doorknob on November 22, 2016, 10:30:47 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 22, 2016, 06:59:32 AM
I believe in worn out cynicism ... and Depends ;-)

uh uh uh ! It's not Depends it's just Depend.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 22, 2016, 05:48:53 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 22, 2016, 12:06:18 AM
Well, to be clear, I doubt there is anything I actually "believe" in.  Suggests welcome.

Yeah, me too. Believing means something different than merely holding a working hypothesis about something, which is about all I have. Believing is more trouble than it's worth.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: trdsf on November 22, 2016, 07:17:57 PM
Quote from: Unbeliever on November 22, 2016, 05:48:53 PM
Yeah, me too. Believing means something different than merely holding a working hypothesis about something, which is about all I have. Believing is more trouble than it's worth.
I dunno.  As long as one is clear that it is not to be confused with actual reality and can be contradicted by observation, belief is okay.  I believe there are other intelligent life forms in this galaxy.  In no way, shape or form do I know there are, but until and unless there's some observational reason to come down one way or the other on the question, it's a harmless belief to hold.  It doesn't cause me to deny myself vital medical care, or drive me to shove my belief down other people's throats because I am so completely convinced of the reality of it.

Belief only becomes a problem when it doesn't come with the basic honesty to admit that it's a belief and not an observed 'fact'.  I have no objection to someone telling me that they believe Jesus was the son of their god.  I absolutely object to the flat declaration that Jesus was the son of their god.  Without independent repeatable evidence, they cannot say that in any honest manner.

What the religious engage in is not, properly speaking, belief, since they claim not belief but certainty and knowledge.  Belief entails the necessary admission that it goes beyond demonstrated observations, and this is not what's claimed by religious 'believers'.

I don't have a problem with calling tentatively accepting a working hypothesis 'belief'.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 22, 2016, 07:39:35 PM
Quote from: trdsf on November 22, 2016, 07:17:57 PM
I dunno.  As long as one is clear that it is not to be confused with actual reality and can be contradicted by observation, belief is okay.  I believe there are other intelligent life forms in this galaxy.  In no way, shape or form do I know there are, but until and unless there's some observational reason to come down one way or the other on the question, it's a harmless belief to hold.  It doesn't cause me to deny myself vital medical care, or drive me to shove my belief down other people's throats because I am so completely convinced of the reality of it.
trdsf, I basically agree with your entire post.  But I changed my view a little to this:  I think there will be intelligent life forms found in the universe.  I don't call it a belief.  Why?  Because I see life forms in such extreme places as in frozen ice, boiling geysers and geysers that we would consider it poisonous, in the sunless depths of the oceans, and in various other places that were called impossible for life to be when I was growing up.  If life can be found in those places, how could it be that life were not on some other planet or moon--and maybe even within our own solar system.  With that as reliable data, I think that there must be life elsewhere in the universe.

And I like hypothesis vs belief, because when talking with a theist once you agree you have a belief, they sort of do a mental 'gotcha', in that the theist has a belief and you have one so you think alike.  And we do not. 
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on November 22, 2016, 10:00:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 22, 2016, 07:39:35 PM
trdsf, I basically agree with your entire post.  But I changed my view a little to this:  I think there will be intelligent life forms found in the universe.  I don't call it a belief.  Why?  Because I see life forms in such extreme places as in frozen ice, boiling geysers and geysers that we would consider it poisonous, in the sunless depths of the oceans, and in various other places that were called impossible for life to be when I was growing up.  If life can be found in those places, how could it be that life were not on some other planet or moon--and maybe even within our own solar system.  With that as reliable data, I think that there must be life elsewhere in the universe.

And I like hypothesis vs belief, because when talking with a theist once you agree you have a belief, they sort of do a mental 'gotcha', in that the theist has a belief and you have one so you think alike.  And we do not.

That's what I mean by not "believing" vs "thinking a possibility".
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 23, 2016, 12:45:55 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 22, 2016, 10:00:19 PM
That's what I mean by not "believing" vs "thinking a possibility".
I hear ya!
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: reasonist on November 24, 2016, 12:18:21 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 22, 2016, 12:06:18 AM
Well, to be clear, I doubt there is anything I actually "believe" in.  Suggests welcome.

Compassion, personal responsibility, empathy, love, respect, tolerance, the golden rule, Karma. All in the here and now, no expectations of a reward in an afterlife.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 24, 2016, 01:51:12 PM
Quote from: reasonist on November 24, 2016, 12:18:21 PM
Compassion, personal responsibility, empathy, love, respect, tolerance, the golden rule, Karma. All in the here and now, no expectations of a reward in an afterlife.
Yeah!  I hear ya!  And I don't need a single 'belief' to strive to take all those things into consideration on a daily basis.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: AllRight on November 24, 2016, 04:03:22 PM
I don't believe in anything except what can be proven so I am a fan of science. I had this conversation with a non-religious friend of mine recently and he was shocked that I had not replaced my former religious beliefs with some type of belief system or some type of spirituality. People find it hard to believe (no pun intended) that you can just not have a faith based system to cope with life. They don't seem to understand that this is not a conclusion a former religious person comes to easily or without great personal gut wrenching torment, it was that way for me anyway. But, to me it is reality.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: aitm on November 24, 2016, 07:05:40 PM
I believe I will have another beer...but...you saw that coming.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on November 24, 2016, 08:49:23 PM
Quote from: aitm on November 24, 2016, 07:05:40 PM
I believe I will have another beer...but...you saw that coming.
I don't think so.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on November 28, 2016, 01:58:34 AM
The question of "belief" always comes up when someone learns you are an atheist.  They say "well, you must b3lieve in something".  No.  I don't "believe" in anything.  That really twists people up.  I'm not surprised by that.  Believers "believe"; its part of their mindset.

So they say "well you believe that that sun rises in the east".  No.  I have rational expectations of it.  It matches prior experience and there are good reasons to expect it (not bothering to explain that it the Earth turning that causes it).

So they say well, you "believe" in love.  No.  Love is strictly an emotional attachment.  Very powerful and important to be sure, but not a belief. 

So they say I must believe I continue after my mortal death.  No.  I'll be as dead as a stomped spider.  No existence beyond mortal death.  No gazing down on my loved ones, no afterlife days walking around in some Eden-like garden, no communion with a deity, no hellish punishment.  Dead.  Dead.  Dead.

How DEAD do I have to describe it?
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on November 28, 2016, 06:32:32 AM
But since you are predicting your own future ... is that a belief?  You don't have any personal experience of being dead.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 02:45:37 AM
Quote from: Baruch on November 28, 2016, 06:32:32 AM
But since you are predicting your own future ... is that a belief?  You don't have any personal experience of being dead.

I am predicting my future only in the sense that when you swat a fly into oblivion, it is  UTTERLY AND MOST SINCERELY dead and that we are the same when dead ourselves.  Dead is dead...
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 07:32:06 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 02:45:37 AM
I am predicting my future only in the sense that when you swat a fly into oblivion, it is  UTTERLY AND MOST SINCERELY dead and that we are the same when dead ourselves.  Dead is dead...

A materialist definition of dead.  An external to self version of dead.  But materialism is just another kind of narrow thinking.  And external to self views while important, aren't relevant to the discussion.  Internal to self is.  Materialists are selfless, which is why they make such good saints ;-)
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 07:43:35 AM
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 07:32:06 AM
A materialist definition of dead.  An external to self version of dead.  But materialism is just another kind of narrow thinking.  And external to self views while important, aren't relevant to the discussion.  Internal to self is.  Materialists are selfless, which is why they make such good saints ;-)

Hallaluieh, I'm a saint!  Seriously, is there any level of utter bodily oblivion that would make you think "yeah, he's DEAD"!  Or does every corporeal being have an afterlife.  Do you draw the line at humans?  What about apes?  What about cats.  I really care about my cats.  That would be good.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 08:49:54 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 07:43:35 AM
Hallaluieh, I'm a saint!  Seriously, is there any level of utter bodily oblivion that would make you think "yeah, he's DEAD"!  Or does every corporeal being have an afterlife.  Do you draw the line at humans?  What about apes?  What about cats.  I really care about my cats.  That would be good.
To hell with people--I want to cross that Rainbow Bridge to get to my dogs and cats--all of them!
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: SGOS on December 02, 2016, 09:14:19 AM
When you go under anesthesia, get knocked on the head, or go to sleep, you loose consciousness, but when you die, you not only remain conscious, but you see everything with a clarity you never had before. 

Death can be a horrifying experience.  Imagine!  Seeing everything with clarity!   You are not the intellectual that you thought.  You are just an average prick.  God hates you.  You never were a hit with the ladies.  And you were a shitty driver.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 10:00:09 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 08:49:54 AM
To hell with people--I want to cross that Rainbow Bridge to get to my dogs and cats--all of them!

The closest I will come to any afterlife thoughts is the Rainbow Bridge.  There are 2 cats I want to be reunited with.  It is a sorrow in my heart that that will never happen.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: SGOS on December 02, 2016, 09:14:19 AM
When you go under anesthesia, get knocked on the head, or go to sleep, you loose consciousness, but when you die, you not only remain conscious, but you see everything with a clarity you never had before. 

Death can be a horrifying experience.  Imagine!  Seeing everything with clarity!   You are not the intellectual that you thought.  You are just an average prick.  God hates you.  You never were a hit with the ladies.  And you were a shitty driver.

I'm never sure when you are serious...  Not worried about God or afterlife consciousness.   I actually am a good driver though.   ;)
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 01:10:17 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 07:43:35 AM
Hallaluieh, I'm a saint!  Seriously, is there any level of utter bodily oblivion that would make you think "yeah, he's DEAD"!  Or does every corporeal being have an afterlife.  Do you draw the line at humans?  What about apes?  What about cats.  I really care about my cats.  That would be good.

The ancients understood life and death a lot better than we do.  So how are you enjoying your trip to Hell, Mr Dante?  Good thing he moved on to Purgatory, and after that to Paradise.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on December 02, 2016, 10:06:08 AM
I'm never sure when you are serious...  Not worried about God or afterlife consciousness.   I actually am a good driver though.   ;)
Well, Baruch is not serious, even when he is not serious.  And is serious even when not being serious.  Humor Baruch does have!
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 02, 2016, 03:39:22 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 01:10:17 PM
The ancients understood life and death a lot better than we do.  So how are you enjoying your trip to Hell, Mr Dante?  Good thing he moved on to Purgatory, and after that to Paradise.
Indeed, it would've sucked for him were it the other way round!
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 06:34:21 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 03:01:11 PM
Well, Baruch is not serious, even when he is not serious.  And is serious even when not being serious.  Humor Baruch does have!

Is the laugh on me, or on the reader?  In English, the negative of a negative is a positive.  But in other languages, the negative of a negative is a super-negative.  People are unconscious all the time, of how their own language controls what they can or cannot think.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 06:34:21 PM
Is the laugh on me, or on the reader?  In English, the negative of a negative is a positive.  But in other languages, the negative of a negative is a super-negative.  People are unconscious all the time, of how their own language controls what they can or cannot think.
The laugh on you??? I find myself laughing with you quite often.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 07:39:14 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on December 02, 2016, 07:34:55 PM
The laugh on you??? I find myself laughing with you quite often.

It's OK to laugh at me too ... I am shameless.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: reasonist on December 06, 2016, 09:16:47 AM
Quote from: Cavebear on November 28, 2016, 01:58:34 AM
So they say well, you "believe" in love.  No.  Love is strictly an emotional attachment.  Very powerful and important to be sure, but not a belief.

One doesn't exclude the other. Unless you are a cynic.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 06, 2016, 01:15:09 PM
Quote from: reasonist on December 06, 2016, 09:16:47 AM
One doesn't exclude the other. Unless you are a cynic.

Belief vs feeling?  Good question.  I think for women, their consciousness is usually more integrated, their EQ and IQ are overlapping.  For men, our consciousness is less integrated, our EQ and IQ are not overlapping, assuming we even have an EQ ;-)  The gender/sex dichotomy I think is important here, and most of our posters are men.  So not necessarily a cynic, if one excludes the other, just male.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: reasonist on December 06, 2016, 05:17:12 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 06, 2016, 01:15:09 PM
Belief vs feeling?  Good question.  I think for women, their consciousness is usually more integrated, their EQ and IQ are overlapping.  For men, our consciousness is less integrated, our EQ and IQ are not overlapping, assuming we even have an EQ ;-)  The gender/sex dichotomy I think is important here, and most of our posters are men.  So not necessarily a cynic, if one excludes the other, just male.

I think we all have both, IQ and EQ. For some the EQ is more suppressed than in others. Many mammals have a high EQ. The difference between the sexes is in my opinion the balance between them. If male means chauvinism, I don't agree. Otherwise, why not believe in love? Despite maybe being hurt and disappointed ourselves, we see love in action all around us. It's a different believe than I believe in gravity, but believing in the intrinsic good in all of us is a prerequisite for a positive outlook in life.
At the other end of the sausage is the cynic who generalizes and hates people in general until he gets to know individuals. It's the presumption of wickedness until proven benign, that makes so many folks miserable. And no, they don't believe in love.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 06, 2016, 07:24:17 PM
Well, there is that positive or negative outlook hanging over things.  My experience is realist, so that is where I am coming from.  I don't accept positive or negative idealism (optimism or pessimism).

Love?  Confusing word in English.  Greek is better ... eros, philos or agape?  I agree with love, if you mean agape.  Agape means love of the common good.  But for most people love is eros or philos aka sexual love or "just friends".  This has a second axis ... self love and love of others.  Agape would be both love of self and love of others, in the context of love of the common good.  Eros and philos are have a third axis .. masturbation vs frolletage .. being your own friend vs being a friend to others ... because love of X can be hate for Y ... love and hate not being opposites ... just that that kind of love can be positive or negative.  I can't see how agape can have that third axis, maybe neutral along that third axis?  The NT uses both philos and agape, never eros.
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Unbeliever on December 07, 2016, 08:21:55 PM
(https://36.media.tumblr.com/fd318f5133a32f34ae3d060a1233e7c4/tumblr_n3d04oEndZ1qzbyhko1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Baruch on December 08, 2016, 06:15:30 AM
Trump's proposed cabinet members?
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on December 08, 2016, 10:48:45 PM
Quote from: Baruch on December 02, 2016, 06:34:21 PM
Is the laugh on me, or on the reader?  In English, the negative of a negative is a positive.  But in other languages, the negative of a negative is a super-negative.  People are unconscious all the time, of how their own language controls what they can or cannot think.

I seriously do not, DO NOT, agree with you that double negatives in English always make a positive. 
Title: Re: What Do You Believe In?
Post by: Cavebear on December 08, 2016, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: reasonist on December 06, 2016, 05:17:12 PM
I think we all have both, IQ and EQ. For some the EQ is more suppressed than in others. Many mammals have a high EQ. The difference between the sexes is in my opinion the balance between them. If male means chauvinism, I don't agree. Otherwise, why not believe in love? Despite maybe being hurt and disappointed ourselves, we see love in action all around us. It's a different believe than I believe in gravity, but believing in the intrinsic good in all of us is a prerequisite for a positive outlook in life.
At the other end of the sausage is the cynic who generalizes and hates people in general until he gets to know individuals. It's the presumption of wickedness until proven benign, that makes so many folks miserable. And no, they don't believe in love.

One of the things (among many) that dissuade me from religious beliefs is the presumption of wickedness, leading to guilt, leading to a need to repent normal human actions.

A second is that there is a deity who exists, of course...