Atheistforums

The Debate Hall => Informal Debates => Topic started by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 12:39:47 AM

Title: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 12:39:47 AM
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on October 14, 2016, 01:54:10 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?

Yes.

Could you?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: sthubbar on October 14, 2016, 01:58:28 AM
No.

This is identical to the a statement like "All sentences are false."

This statement can't be true.

If we assign truth to "All sentences are false" then the sentence "All sentences are false. is false

It can't be both true and false

Conclusion = "All sentences are false." is false.

--------------------------------------------

For your example let's assume "I am wrong about every thing that I claim to know" is true

I am claiming to know that it is true that "I am wrong about every thing that I claim to know" but the statement says that every thing that I claim to know is false.

I am not able to know the fact that every thing that I claim to know is both false and be able to realize that fact.

Just by asking that question, at a minimum, you put at least 1 correct thought into what I claim to know, so the statement is false.

Sorry Hovind won't help you here.

BTW, just because somebody does someone commits "sins" does not make then a "sinner" unless you also accept that because somebody does something "angelic" makes then an "angel".
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on October 14, 2016, 02:06:11 AM
sthubbar, for the love of Peter Griffin, please look up a movie called The Princess Bride and add "Vizzini".

Never mind, I found it for you. 4 minutes, quite pertinent, totally worthy;
https://youtu.be/U_eZmEiyTo0
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 14, 2016, 04:12:09 AM
OP, semantics aside; I get what you are getting at. And in that light; sure.

What off it?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Sal1981 on October 14, 2016, 04:21:35 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?
Every thing? To falsify that (as per falsifiability) I simply have to come up with any statement that is necessarily true.

Do you want to play this game of semantics?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Nonsensei on October 14, 2016, 05:31:49 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?

Holy shit man you just blew my mind. I had never before this moment considered whether or not my views could possibly be wrong. Now that I am considering it, I can feel the thick, veiny dick of the holy spirit invading various orifices of my body as I slowly convert to religion.

What an uplifting experience.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2016, 08:00:01 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Holy shit man you just blew my mind. I had never before this moment considered whether or not my views could possibly be wrong. Now that I am considering it, I can feel the thick, veiny dick of the holy spirit invading various orifices of my body as I slowly convert to religion.

What an uplifting experience.
"Lifts and separates!"
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 08:16:19 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?
Could I? Yes. Am I? Allow me to sing for you the song of my people.

After some analysis comparing the various gods of mythology to omnipotent characters in fiction, you will find there are no differences between the two.

I know that gods don't exist. It's surprisingly simple to sum up: Any being claiming to fit the human concept of a god can offer no proof that cannot equally be offered by this guy:

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/Q_as_God.jpg)
An advanced alien, like Q here, would be able to claim it is a god,
even your god, and offer any proof you demanded of him.
You would never be able to prove that he is anything other than what he claims.

It sounds like overly simplistic logic, but this is only because the nature of mythological gods itself speaks to how simplistic human imagination tends to be. Even the broadest interpretation of a god separate from the universe, that of deism, only exists to say, "The universe exists, therefore no matter how complex it is God surely must be able to make it," which is really just expanding an already made-up term to encompass new discoveries, rather than just admit that the concept was flawed to begin with.

Then you have the pantheistic and panentheistic definitions, respectively stating that god is the universe and the universe is within god; both of which pretty much mean the same thing after any deep analysis, and both of which beg the question, "If God and the universe are indistinguishable, then why separate the terms at all?" Like deism, the answer is obvious: it's expanding an older term to fit new discoveries, rather than admitting that the concept was flawed from the get-go.

The human concept of a god gets even more ridiculous once you introduce the concept of higher dimensions. Rob Bryanton's Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA), while by no means describing a currently accepted scientific theory, nevertheless illustrates just how ridiculously huge our universe is should any concept of higher dimensions prove to be accurate (especially given the size of the observable universe we are already well aware of). As the universe gets bigger and bigger, any concept of gods must expand accordingly, to ludicrous levels as this concept should demonstrate.

Even if the observable universe is all there is, if it is really designed then it seems to act like what we would expect of a simulator; and any being capable of designing it should more accurately be referred to as a programmer than a god. "Why can't we just call the programmer God?" you ask. For the same reason we wouldn't call it a leprechaun: fictional though it may be, it already exists as a concept and, for the sake of not invoking confusion and/or emotional validation for irrational beliefs, the term should not be continually expanded to include any and every version of the universe's hypothetical creator. If it is more like a programmer than a god, then that is what we should call it, and how we should regard it. Given all of this, I cannot think of any explanation abiding by Occam's Razor that would lead me to believe that a being conforming to the mythical concept of a god exists.

tl;dr version: There is no way anything we would regard as a god could ever prove that it is what it claims to a skeptical individual. Because the universe less resembles a mythical god's realm than it does a simulator, any designer we did find should be called a programmer, not a god. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that there is no god.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2016, 08:58:02 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?
I suspect you have some serious doubts about your own faith and you're trying to "do good work" to prevent your consignment to Hell by your loving God.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 14, 2016, 09:12:23 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?
There are claims that I believe that are necessarily true (2+2=4, potatoes are different from non-potatoes, Thursday is the day after Wednesday)

There are claims that are so well verified that there is little doubt (the Earth orbits the sun, the Roman Empire ruled much of Europe for centuries, and I Can't Believe It's Not Butter is in fact margarine).

Finally, there are claims with such scant support that I'm really going out on a limb (Keanu Reeves is immortal, Dick Cheney has to punch an orphan to get an erection, Tom Cruise is secretly gay).

It's impossible to be wrong about the first category, I'm almost certainly not wrong about the second category, only statements in the third category would likely prove to be incorrect.

But I'm not the one who at minimum believes in supernatural beings, miracles, and at least one entire supernatural realm.  And at maximum, it's a talking serpent, people who lived for hundreds of years, practically the entire world was killed from a flood except for a single family inhabiting an ark, and that blessed wine literally turns into blood.

Which one of us is more likely to have gotten it wrong?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: aitm on October 14, 2016, 09:47:16 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?

Mirror.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 02:51:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes.

Could you?

No. I could be wrong about a lot of things but there are things I can know for certain.

But you have just given up all knowledge. You can't know anything. That's the absurdity of atheism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 02:52:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No.

This is identical to the a statement like "All sentences are false."

This statement can't be true.

If we assign truth to "All sentences are false" then the sentence "All sentences are false. is false

It can't be both true and false

Conclusion = "All sentences are false." is false.

--------------------------------------------

For your example let's assume "I am wrong about every thing that I claim to know" is true

I am claiming to know that it is true that "I am wrong about every thing that I claim to know" but the statement says that every thing that I claim to know is false.

I am not able to know the fact that every thing that I claim to know is both false and be able to realize that fact.

Just by asking that question, at a minimum, you put at least 1 correct thought into what I claim to know, so the statement is false.

Sorry Hovind won't help you here.

BTW, just because somebody does someone commits "sins" does not make then a "sinner" unless you also accept that because somebody does something "angelic" makes then an "angel".

Tell me one thing that you know but could be wrong about...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 02:53:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
OP, semantics aside; I get what you are getting at. And in that light; sure.

What off it?

What of it? By saying that you could be wrong about everything you claim to know you must also admit that you can not know anything. That is absurd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 02:54:55 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could I? Yes. Am I? Allow me to sing for you the song of my people.

After some analysis comparing the various gods of mythology to omnipotent characters in fiction, you will find there are no differences between the two.

I know that gods don't exist. It's surprisingly simple to sum up: Any being claiming to fit the human concept of a god can offer no proof that cannot equally be offered by this guy:

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/Q_as_God.jpg)
An advanced alien, like Q here, would be able to claim it is a god,
even your god, and offer any proof you demanded of him.
You would never be able to prove that he is anything other than what he claims.

It sounds like overly simplistic logic, but this is only because the nature of mythological gods itself speaks to how simplistic human imagination tends to be. Even the broadest interpretation of a god separate from the universe, that of deism, only exists to say, "The universe exists, therefore no matter how complex it is God surely must be able to make it," which is really just expanding an already made-up term to encompass new discoveries, rather than just admit that the concept was flawed to begin with.

Then you have the pantheistic and panentheistic definitions, respectively stating that god is the universe and the universe is within god; both of which pretty much mean the same thing after any deep analysis, and both of which beg the question, "If God and the universe are indistinguishable, then why separate the terms at all?" Like deism, the answer is obvious: it's expanding an older term to fit new discoveries, rather than admitting that the concept was flawed from the get-go.

The human concept of a god gets even more ridiculous once you introduce the concept of higher dimensions. Rob Bryanton's Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA), while by no means describing a currently accepted scientific theory, nevertheless illustrates just how ridiculously huge our universe is should any concept of higher dimensions prove to be accurate (especially given the size of the observable universe we are already well aware of). As the universe gets bigger and bigger, any concept of gods must expand accordingly, to ludicrous levels as this concept should demonstrate.

Even if the observable universe is all there is, if it is really designed then it seems to act like what we would expect of a simulator; and any being capable of designing it should more accurately be referred to as a programmer than a god. "Why can't we just call the programmer God?" you ask. For the same reason we wouldn't call it a leprechaun: fictional though it may be, it already exists as a concept and, for the sake of not invoking confusion and/or emotional validation for irrational beliefs, the term should not be continually expanded to include any and every version of the universe's hypothetical creator. If it is more like a programmer than a god, then that is what we should call it, and how we should regard it. Given all of this, I cannot think of any explanation abiding by Occam's Razor that would lead me to believe that a being conforming to the mythical concept of a god exists.

tl;dr version: There is no way anything we would regard as a god could ever prove that it is what it claims to a skeptical individual. Because the universe less resembles a mythical god's realm than it does a simulator, any designer we did find should be called a programmer, not a god. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that there is no god.

Are you certain about that? Could you be wrong? If you could, then how can you know it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 14, 2016, 02:56:03 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
What of it? By saying that you could be wrong about everything you claim to know you must also admit that you can not know anything. That is absurd.

As we are already talking about this in another thread, I'll refer you to that one mate. Splitting it up at this point would be ridiculous.
I'm the thinking vs knowing guy. The argument hasn't changed. I'll see you in the other thread ;)
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2016, 03:05:42 PM
Quibbles.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 03:13:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are you certain about that? Could you be wrong? If you could, then how can you know it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I could be. But I'm probably not.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:13:48 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quibbles.

Are you certain? Or could be wrong that I'm "quibbling"?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:14:52 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I could be. But I'm probably not.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

How probable? Could you be wrong that you're probably not wrong?

Infinite regress. Absolute Absurdity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2016, 03:15:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are you certain? Or could be wrong that I'm "quibbling"?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You know, this echolalia syndrome is a bit asinine.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:15:45 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You know, this echolalia syndrome is a bit asinine.

It's an infinite regress. Any atheistic worldview is absolutely absurd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 03:16:31 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How probable? Could you be wrong that you're probably not wrong?

Infinite regress. Absolute Absurdity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I could be. But probably not.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:17:10 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I could be. But probably not.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

I have proved my point. Have a good day sir.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 03:19:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have proved my point. Have a good day sir.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The only thing you have proven is that thinking is superior to knowing. One exercises your brain, and the other gives you a sense of smug superiority that drives you to find an atheist forum and start asking inane questions.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:20:58 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The only thing you have proven is that thinking is superior to knowing. One exercises your brain, and the other gives you a sense of smug superiority that drives you to find an atheist forum and start asking inane questions.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

Are you certain about that or could you be wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:21:34 PM
You continue to make knowledge claims, then claim you don't know anything. Makes sense...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 14, 2016, 03:27:23 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No. I could be wrong about a lot of things but there are things I can know for certain.

But you have just given up all knowledge. You can't know anything. That's the absurdity of atheism.
Ouch.  Quite the epistemological smackdown from someone whose worldview seems to entirely consist of unquestioningly accepting the veracity of the first holy book thrust in front of your face.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:33:20 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Ouch.  Quite the epistemological smackdown from someone whose worldview seems to entirely consist of unquestioningly accepting the veracity of the first holy book thrust in front of your face.

Why are you making knowledge claims?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 03:33:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Are you certain about that or could you be wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I could be wrong, but probably not.

How much longer do you want to keep this up?


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:35:04 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I could be wrong, but probably not.

How much longer do you want to keep this up?


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

You just keep refuting yourself. You can't know anything but yet you keep on making knowledge claims. You don't see anything wrong with that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 03:49:59 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You just keep refuting yourself. You can't know anything but yet you keep on making knowledge claims. You don't see anything wrong with that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Since you've already made it clear that you won't engage on a basic level with anything outside of your holy book, I'm not exactly making an effort to construct airtight arguments.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 03:52:57 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Since you've already made it clear that you won't engage on a basic level with anything outside of your holy book, I'm not exactly making an effort to construct airtight arguments.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

You don't have an argument because you can't know anything. You have no truth, just meaningless preference.

I won't give up God and his revelation to prove God and his revelation. That's like asking the strongest man in the world to prove himself without using his strength.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 03:58:53 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You don't have an argument because you can't know anything. You have no truth, just meaningless preference.

I won't give up God and his revelation to prove God and his revelation. That's like asking the strongest man in the world to prove himself without using his strength.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Projection. You came here demanding that we account for ourselves to you, and have presented no arguments. If you had read my PSA thread in the religion section, you would know that we don't take people like you seriously. Also, the only reason you haven't been banned for proselytizing yet is because the mods like to give us time to play with our chew toys.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: PopeyesPappy on October 14, 2016, 03:59:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You don't have an argument because you can't know anything. You have no truth, just meaningless preference.

But you do know because god has revealed it to you?

You are one seriously deluded child, Alexx.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on October 14, 2016, 05:48:44 PM
I know that I exist.

For, if I am wrong about that, who is wrong?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: sthubbar on October 14, 2016, 08:49:14 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I won't give up God and his revelation to prove God and his revelation. That's like asking the strongest man in the world to prove himself without using his strength.

Alexx,

  You seem to think you have some conduit, or access to an absolute perfect authority.

  The issue is that the only evidence that I have to your access to this authority is your word.  You are unable to present any credible evidence of your access to this authority.  Furthermore, every test fails to confirm this claim and leads us to assume you are deceived or lying.

  I assume, you think the bible is some special/magic book.  Why?  There are millions of other books that also have good stories in them.  You agree with us that all of these millions of books are written by humans, with varying quality and accuracy.  What evidence do you have that your one special book is special?

  Without any evidence, you are exactly like every other human being, using your senses, emotions, instinct and intellect to make the most of our existence.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 08:58:49 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Projection. You came here demanding that we account for ourselves to you, and have presented no arguments. If you had read my PSA thread in the religion section, you would know that we don't take people like you seriously. Also, the only reason you haven't been banned for proselytizing yet is because the mods like to give us time to play with our chew toys.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

The evidence of my position is that without it, you have nothing but absurdity. I have proved this throughout this forum...

You still have given me no basis for trusting your reasoning and senses so on what basis do you not take me seriously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 09:00:46 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
But you do know because god has revealed it to you?

You are one seriously deluded child, Alexx.
Is it impossible for the Christian God to exist?

You must admit that it is not.

So if you agree that it is possible for the Christian God to exist, would you also agree that such a God could reveal things to us that we may know them for certain?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 09:01:16 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I know that I exist.

For, if I am wrong about that, who is wrong?

How do you know that you exist?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: aitm on October 14, 2016, 09:02:19 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The evidence of my position is that without it, you have nothing but absurdity. I have proved this throughout this forum...

You still have given me no basis for trusting your reasoning and senses so on what basis do you not take me seriously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mirror
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 09:04:30 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Alexx,

  You seem to think you have some conduit, or access to an absolute perfect authority.

  The issue is that the only evidence that I have to your access to this authority is your word.  You are unable to present any credible evidence of your access to this authority.  Furthermore, every test fails to confirm this claim and leads us to assume you are deceived or lying.

  I assume, you think the bible is some special/magic book.  Why?  There are millions of other books that also have good stories in them.  You agree with us that all of these millions of books are written by humans, with varying quality and accuracy.  What evidence do you have that your one special book is special?

  Without any evidence, you are exactly like every other human being, using your senses, emotions, instinct and intellect to make the most of our existence.

I do, God has revealed himself in his word. The Bible is the absolute most authentic literature in the entire world.....

I have evidence, you will quickly dismiss it based on your presuppositions.

So my proof is that without the Christian God you are reduced to absurdity.

I do not deny that We all use our reason to know what is true, what I am saying is that you have absolutely no justification to know that your reasoning is valid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: aitm on October 14, 2016, 09:13:06 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I do, God has revealed himself in his word. The Bible is the absolute most authentic literature in the entire world.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

According to the babble the sky is water, women are filthy, three-thirds of the stars have fallen to the earth…(yeah….3 thirds. LOLOLOL) and dead people walked among a city of ten thousand but not one ever mentioned it. LOLOLOL….yeah you got us…authentic and absolute…..LOL, more like "tom and jerry"
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 09:18:15 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
According to the babble the sky is water, women are filthy, three-thirds of the stars have fallen to the earth…(yeah….3 thirds. LOLOLOL) and dead people walked among a city of ten thousand but not one ever mentioned it. LOLOLOL….yeah you got us…authentic and absolute…..LOL, more like "tom and jerry"

I can reconcile everything you just said but you'll dismiss it again just like you did bc of your PRESUPPOSITIONS. That's why I don't give evidence. All evidence points to God but you won't accept that. For example the "stars falling" are not literal stars.... Bible doesn't say that the sky is water nor does it say that women are filthy lol....

But that's not my point. I don't argue scripture with unbelievers...

I want you to tell me how you can even trust your reasoning and senses to be valid, based on your worldview you can't, therefore you can't know anything to be true....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 14, 2016, 09:37:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The evidence of my position is that without it, you have nothing but absurdity. I have proved this throughout this forum...
On the contrary, you are pre-supposing that this superior being exists and is guiding your reasoning. In order for your methodology to be superior to mine, however, you must prove that this being exists in the first place. If there is indeed no God communicating with the human species (and I've yet to see evidence that there is), then the construction of my epistemology is far superior to your made-up gobbledygook, since it deals with real mental abilities which can actually be exercised in a practical setting. Unlike you, I have trained myself to recognize my own flaws and, with proper discipline, work with or even overcome them. You, on the other hand, believe your reasoning to be flawless since you have convinced yourself that you are guided by a god. You refuse to analyze any flaws in your logic, and are actively preventing yourself from improving your mind. This is why everyone here is treating you like a child: you've yet to progress your mind beyond that level of mental development, and it really shows.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You still have given me no basis for trusting your reasoning and senses so on what basis do you not take me seriously?
Of course not, you're a rebel without a cause who doesn't want an obviously-superior way of thinking to be true because it's too hard. You didn't do a lick of homework before you came to this forum, and the total lack of self-awareness evident in your questions demonstrates this to a tee. You're happy to ask us if we can be wrong, but you've clearly never applied this to yourself. You are deluded, convinced you can do no wrong; you will protest, of course, but your actions don't lie. You are a self-assured child covering his ears and hiding behind an imaginary friend, desperately proclaiming your love of Big Brother in the hopes of removing all need to think for yourself. You aren't as formidable as you think, because you're not formidable at all. The only thing you are worthy of is pity.

If you don't like hearing the truth about yourself, the door is not locked. Feel free to get the fuck out.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: sthubbar on October 14, 2016, 10:37:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I do, God has revealed himself in his word. The Bible is the absolute most authentic literature in the entire world.....
  This is assertion.  "I am invincible." "Everything I say is true." "I have visited Mars."  These assertions have as much evidence as what you just stated.  Evidence.  Please provide evidence.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have evidence, you will quickly dismiss it based on your presuppositions.

What evidence?

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So my proof is that without the Christian God you are reduced to absurdity.

It might make more sense if you said that without SOME perfect authority then we are reduced to absurdity.  Why would we choose the Christian God?  I can claim that the teapot orbiting around Mars is a perfect authority and I appeal to the great teapot to avoid being reduced to absurdity.

Still haven't heard one piece of evidence.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 11:36:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
On the contrary, you are pre-supposing that this superior being exists and is guiding your reasoning. In order for your methodology to be superior to mine, however, you must prove that this being exists in the first place. If there is indeed no God communicating with the human species (and I've yet to see evidence that there is), then the construction of my epistemology is far superior to your made-up gobbledygook, since it deals with real mental abilities which can actually be exercised in a practical setting. Unlike you, I have trained myself to recognize my own flaws and, with proper discipline, work with or even overcome them. You, on the other hand, believe your reasoning to be flawless since you have convinced yourself that you are guided by a god. You refuse to analyze any flaws in your logic, and are actively preventing yourself from improving your mind. This is why everyone here is treating you like a child: you've yet to progress your mind beyond that level of mental development, and it really shows.
Of course not, you're a rebel without a cause who doesn't want an obviously-superior way of thinking to be true because it's too hard. You didn't do a lick of homework before you came to this forum, and the total lack of self-awareness evident in your questions demonstrates this to a tee. You're happy to ask us if we can be wrong, but you've clearly never applied this to yourself. You are deluded, convinced you can do no wrong; you will protest, of course, but your actions don't lie. You are a self-assured child covering his ears and hiding behind an imaginary friend, desperately proclaiming your love of Big Brother in the hopes of removing all need to think for yourself. You aren't as formidable as you think, because you're not formidable at all. The only thing you are worthy of is pity.

If you don't like hearing the truth about yourself, the door is not locked. Feel free to get the fuck out.

Yes actually the apologetic method which I find to be the most biblical is called "Presuppositional Apologetics". I presuppose that the one true God exists because if you do not, you will be reduced to absurdity.

I presuppose the Christian worldview and when I look at evidence, I come to the conclusion of the Christian God.

You presuppose "no god" and when you look at the same exact evidence, you come to the conclusion of "no God".

I do not believe my reasoning to be flawless. However, I know that the Christian God exists because He has revealed this to me in such a way that I can know for certain. That is irrefutable. However I do not claim inerrancy or infallibility.

The reason you want me to leave is because you love your sin and hearing anything about the God that you know exists and that you hate infuriates you. My prayer is that God miraculously changes your heart.

Let's go through this again, you said "if you don't like hearing the truth..."

How do you know anything to be true?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 11:41:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
  This is assertion.  "I am invincible." "Everything I say is true." "I have visited Mars."  These assertions have as much evidence as what you just stated.  Evidence.  Please provide evidence.

What evidence?

It might make more sense if you said that without SOME perfect authority then we are reduced to absurdity.  Why would we choose the Christian God?  I can claim that the teapot orbiting around Mars is a perfect authority and I appeal to the great teapot to avoid being reduced to absurdity.

Still haven't heard one piece of evidence.

No, see, I don't claim that because I say it, it's true. I claim that because GOD said it, it's true. God is invincible and everything that God says is true! Not me tho...

If you claim that the "teapot orbiting mars is a perfect authority" and that you "appeal to the great teapot to avoid being reduced to absurdity" I would first say this;

You are no longer an Atheist.

Secondly, if you want to claim that then we can most definitely debate that but if that's not what you believe then why ever debate it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 11:44:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Please provide evidence.

What evidence?

Still haven't heard one piece of evidence.

There is tons - www.answersingenesis.com

You'll presuppose that there is no God, look at that evidence and conclude that there is no God.

I'll presuppose that the Christian God exists, look at the same exact evidence and come to the conclusion that the Christian God exists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Draconic Aiur on October 15, 2016, 01:47:03 AM
ah, hes finally banned
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Jason Harvestdancer on October 15, 2016, 02:49:23 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How do you know that you exist?

If I am mistaken about that, who is making the mistake?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Shiranu on October 15, 2016, 03:55:06 AM
Statistically something I believe has to be wrong... and statistically I cannot be 100% wrong.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 15, 2016, 04:26:50 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could I? Yes. Am I? Allow me to sing for you the song of my people.

After some analysis comparing the various gods of mythology to omnipotent characters in fiction, you will find there are no differences between the two.

I know that gods don't exist. It's surprisingly simple to sum up: Any being claiming to fit the human concept of a god can offer no proof that cannot equally be offered by this guy:

(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/FormicHiveQueen/Q_as_God.jpg)
An advanced alien, like Q here, would be able to claim it is a god,
even your god, and offer any proof you demanded of him.
You would never be able to prove that he is anything other than what he claims.

It sounds like overly simplistic logic, but this is only because the nature of mythological gods itself speaks to how simplistic human imagination tends to be. Even the broadest interpretation of a god separate from the universe, that of deism, only exists to say, "The universe exists, therefore no matter how complex it is God surely must be able to make it," which is really just expanding an already made-up term to encompass new discoveries, rather than just admit that the concept was flawed to begin with.

Then you have the pantheistic and panentheistic definitions, respectively stating that god is the universe and the universe is within god; both of which pretty much mean the same thing after any deep analysis, and both of which beg the question, "If God and the universe are indistinguishable, then why separate the terms at all?" Like deism, the answer is obvious: it's expanding an older term to fit new discoveries, rather than admitting that the concept was flawed from the get-go.

The human concept of a god gets even more ridiculous once you introduce the concept of higher dimensions. Rob Bryanton's Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg85IH3vghA), while by no means describing a currently accepted scientific theory, nevertheless illustrates just how ridiculously huge our universe is should any concept of higher dimensions prove to be accurate (especially given the size of the observable universe we are already well aware of). As the universe gets bigger and bigger, any concept of gods must expand accordingly, to ludicrous levels as this concept should demonstrate.

Even if the observable universe is all there is, if it is really designed then it seems to act like what we would expect of a simulator; and any being capable of designing it should more accurately be referred to as a programmer than a god. "Why can't we just call the programmer God?" you ask. For the same reason we wouldn't call it a leprechaun: fictional though it may be, it already exists as a concept and, for the sake of not invoking confusion and/or emotional validation for irrational beliefs, the term should not be continually expanded to include any and every version of the universe's hypothetical creator. If it is more like a programmer than a god, then that is what we should call it, and how we should regard it. Given all of this, I cannot think of any explanation abiding by Occam's Razor that would lead me to believe that a being conforming to the mythical concept of a god exists.

tl;dr version: There is no way anything we would regard as a god could ever prove that it is what it claims to a skeptical individual. Because the universe less resembles a mythical god's realm than it does a simulator, any designer we did find should be called a programmer, not a god. Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that there is no god.

But programmers are gods, and Elon Musk intends to overthrow the current simulation with his own, called Satan ;-)
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 15, 2016, 04:34:05 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I do, God has revealed himself in his word. The Bible is the absolute most authentic literature in the entire world.....

I have evidence, you will quickly dismiss it based on your presuppositions.

So my proof is that without the Christian God you are reduced to absurdity.

I do not deny that We all use our reason to know what is true, what I am saying is that you have absolutely no justification to know that your reasoning is valid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You admit to Bibliolatry.  You lose!

i gave you one like, one.  You addressed me, not my post, one time, and that is why you got a like.  I was a person, not a rhetorical position.  You then proceeded to ignore my answer, hence no more likes.  Randy beats you, I think I gave him two whole likes, because I was a person to him, twice.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: SGOS on October 15, 2016, 06:33:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
ah, hes finally banned

Don't get my hopes up.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 15, 2016, 07:34:18 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Could you be wrong about every thing that you claim to know?
I wasn't wrong about how long you'd last.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: sthubbar on October 15, 2016, 08:57:08 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I wasn't wrong about how long you'd last.

Hmm, I'm new to this forum.  Why was he banned?

Isn't this forum also for believers and the category of this forum says "The Debate Hall -> Informal Debates"

How can we have debates when the other side is getting banned?

If he was telling the truth, he was a young person that might still be reachable.  After 30 it's pretty much too late.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 15, 2016, 09:02:16 AM
No preaching, no conversion propaganda. Reading the rules is a good thing.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 09:05:24 AM
Lets consider any statement that I might be wrong about.   Suggest one.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: PopeyesPappy on October 15, 2016, 09:16:56 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hmm, I'm new to this forum.  Why was he banned?

Quote
Rule 3. Proselytizing (attempts to convert people to a religion/belief system by means of preaching) is allowed as long as intelligent discourse follows, and as long as it is not spam. Repeatedly posting verses from your favourite holy book as “evidence” of your favourite deity is not considered intelligent discourse and can result in thread locking and, eventually, a ban.

I'd have let it go if he could have kept his repeated bullshit about no one can know anything without god confined to a couple of threads, but he couldn't. I warned him about this exact thing early on.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 09:18:37 AM
Makes sense to ME!
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: PopeyesPappy on October 15, 2016, 09:20:17 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Lets consider any statement that I might be wrong about.   Suggest one.

Well according to Alexx you can't be right about anything if it wasn't revealed to you by his god.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: SGOS on October 15, 2016, 09:24:44 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How can we have debates when the other side is getting banned?

For debates to be productive, they require an element of reason.  This guy didn't demonstrate any such inclination.  He was bobbing and weaving, making wild claims, and ducking when challenged.  Some people identify such behavior as trolling, (which I would agree with), but even if it's done out of ignorance, it presents a wall in communication that cannot be breached in any rational way.  The reason he was given so much leeway to begin with was probably because the mods needed to see if he was capable of rational communication.  If he's a troll, who cares?  If he's mentally challenged, that's sad, but unfortunately in that case, he doesn't belong here.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: sthubbar on October 15, 2016, 09:57:05 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No preaching, no conversion propaganda. Reading the rules is a good thing.

Maybe he was banned for behavior in another thread.

Was he warned or just banned?

Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 09:57:51 AM
OK, I'll agree with that.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hydra009 on October 15, 2016, 10:00:26 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
How can we have debates when the other side is getting banned?
Were we having a debate?
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 10:21:25 AM
Agreed.  Both parties in a debate have to discuss things as adults.  When one side is irrational, it isn't a debate.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 15, 2016, 01:48:40 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hmm, I'm new to this forum.  Why was he banned?

Isn't this forum also for believers and the category of this forum says "The Debate Hall -> Informal Debates"

How can we have debates when the other side is getting banned?

If he was telling the truth, he was a young person that might still be reachable.  After 30 it's pretty much too late.

Sometimes regulars debate on if a purgatory or ban was appropriate.  Randy has some knowledge of Catholicism ... so he is in purgatory.  Alex was a gerbil, no meat on him yet.  Sorry, as a parent I can say, people aren't reachable after 6 years old.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: sthubbar on October 15, 2016, 08:04:05 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Agreed.  Both parties in a debate have to discuss things as adults.  When one side is irrational, it isn't a debate.

Hmm, if we are assuming that atheism is the rational side, then any discussion is impossible.  The challenge seems to be, how might it be possible to engage with those who are irrational / brain washed / deluded.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: SGOS on October 15, 2016, 08:43:36 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hmm, if we are assuming that atheism is the rational side, then any discussion is impossible.  The challenge seems to be, how might it be possible to engage with those who are irrational / brain washed / deluded.

If you figure out how to engage the irrational, they'll give you a Nobel Prize.  I myself will present you with a sword and henceforth address you as Sthubbar the Mighty.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 15, 2016, 11:18:21 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hmm, if we are assuming that atheism is the rational side, then any discussion is impossible.  The challenge seems to be, how might it be possible to engage with those who are irrational / brain washed / deluded.

There are two kinds of people, those who take that position, and those who don't.  Many people here are in the first category.  I am one of the few in the second category, because I am willing to call bullshit on anyone.  But some religious posters, are just chew toys.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 16, 2016, 12:08:52 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There are two kinds of people, those who take that position, and those who don't.
Actually, there are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 16, 2016, 07:11:28 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Hmm, if we are assuming that atheism is the rational side, then any discussion is impossible.  The challenge seems to be, how might it be possible to engage with those who are irrational / brain washed / deluded.

Mostly rational people can hold some irrational beliefs. And they can discuss them rationally. Jesuits, for example.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: trdsf on October 16, 2016, 11:20:11 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Sometimes regulars debate on if a purgatory or ban was appropriate.  Randy has some knowledge of Catholicism ... so he is in purgatory.  Alex was a gerbil, no meat on him yet.  Sorry, as a parent I can say, people aren't reachable after 6 years old.
I dunno.  I have had some excellent discussions (not debates) with believers.  I count some quite devout believers among my friends -- and I have tremendous respect for a born-again friend of mine who said, early in our friendship, that he was praying for me and that was the last thing he would say to me about my beliefs -- and it was.  He has not mentioned it since, and it's been more than 25 years.  I respect faith like that (regardless of whether I agree with it), and I respect respect like that.

It's all a matter of respect.  He respects my right to believe for myself, and vice versa.  Some of my believer friends simply don't raise the subject knowing no one is going to convince anyone else, and I respect that and don't raise it in return.  Some of them are willing to discuss the matter in purely theoretical terms without any attempt at proselytizing, and I respect that (and will play by those rules) too.

I repeat, it's just a matter of respect.  If someone comes on this site and demands that they're right because of their ancient and mistranslated book with no room for actual discussion, I have no compunction coming down on them with hobnailed boots on, swinging a two-by-four with embedded nails as I do so.

If someone asks a legitimate question, I feel obliged to offer a legitimate answer.  Fair is fair is fair.  Fundamentally, if my beliefs are fair game for discussion, so are theirs.  The ones who are still my friends are those who feel the same way, even when they are believers themselves.  And there are some out there, even among the self-proclaimed 'born again' or 'orthodox'.

They make me feel obliged to be an example by being a good example for the non-religious life, rather than by talking about it, and I cannot help but think that that's a good thing.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: SGOS on October 17, 2016, 06:57:56 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
as a parent I can say, people aren't reachable after 6 years old.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I dunno.  I have had some excellent discussions (not debates) with believers.  I count some quite devout believers among my friends -- and I have tremendous respect for a born-again friend of mine who said, early in our friendship, that he was praying for me and that was the last thing he would say to me about my beliefs -- and it was.  He has not mentioned it since, and it's been more than 25 years.  I respect faith like that (regardless of whether I agree with it), and I respect respect like that.

They make me feel obliged to be an example by being a good example for the non-religious life, rather than by talking about it, and I cannot help but think that that's a good thing.

Don't confuse reachable with respect.  I am good friends with a fundamentalist couple, and while there is acceptance of each other's views, or respect if you wish to call it that, they are not reachable.  Nor am I at this time.  There is no possibility of rational debate over religion with that couple.  There might be at sometime in the future, but they have made it clear that it is not possible at this time.  This is a positive understanding between us.

I also think some people are reachable after the age of six.  At six, I was a Christian, but I gradually became an atheist.  Not that anyone person "reached" me and caused a conversion, although obviously my transformation involved a lot of discussion with both atheists and theists.  I don't know.  Perhaps I was predisposed to atheism.  The theist arguments, while inspirational, made no logical sense to me.  The atheist arguments interested me, and caused me to think.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 17, 2016, 07:17:27 AM
So you are the exception that proves the rule?  If the majority had a life story like yours, the world would be radically different.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: SGOS on October 17, 2016, 07:30:29 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
So you are the exception that proves the rule?  If the majority had a life story like yours, the world would be radically different.

The only thing I prove is that the rule is not sacrosanct.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: trdsf on October 18, 2016, 10:32:28 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Don't confuse reachable with respect.  I am good friends with a fundamentalist couple, and while there is acceptance of each other's views, or respect if you wish to call it that, they are not reachable.  Nor am I at this time.  There is no possibility of rational debate over religion with that couple.  There might be at sometime in the future, but they have made it clear that it is not possible at this time.  This is a positive understanding between us.

I also think some people are reachable after the age of six.  At six, I was a Christian, but I gradually became an atheist.  Not that anyone person "reached" me and caused a conversion, although obviously my transformation involved a lot of discussion with both atheists and theists.  I don't know.  Perhaps I was predisposed to atheism.  The theist arguments, while inspirational, made no logical sense to me.  The atheist arguments interested me, and caused me to think.
Oh, certainly -- but 'reachable' implies 'willing to listen in the first place', and I'm always willing to respect 'willing to listen in the first place' even if it never gets to the point of 'reachable'.

And likewise, I was raised a Catholic, and throughout the 1970s I was a very devout young RC -- altar boy, lector, probably on track to be a deacon, and then John Paul II happened and I watched 'my' church turn reactionary and I just couldn't anymore.  Even so, it took drifting through Wicca and a sort of collision between Jeffersonian Deism and Discordianism before finally sitting down and having a good solid think about it and realizing that it was an explanation of the universe that was entirely unnecessary.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: aitm on October 18, 2016, 10:43:48 AM
Respect is a difficult thing to truly do. I prefer the word considerate. I am considerate of "your" religion, but I do not respect it. There are one or three "religions" that are less intrusive so they can get a little more consideration, but respect implies, at least to me, a little bit of agreement.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 18, 2016, 10:50:03 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Respect is a difficult thing to truly do. I prefer the word considerate. I am considerate of "your" religion, but I do not respect it. There are one or three "religions" that are less intrusive so they can get a little more consideration, but respect implies, at least to me, a little bit of agreement.
They EARN respect, it's not granted without cause. Too many people do, in deed, grant respect without reason. They should use a different word for that, like "ImTooLazyToReason" or some such.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 18, 2016, 04:47:51 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Oh, certainly -- but 'reachable' implies 'willing to listen in the first place', and I'm always willing to respect 'willing to listen in the first place' even if it never gets to the point of 'reachable'.

And likewise, I was raised a Catholic, and throughout the 1970s I was a very devout young RC -- altar boy, lector, probably on track to be a deacon, and then John Paul II happened and I watched 'my' church turn reactionary and I just couldn't anymore.  Even so, it took drifting through Wicca and a sort of collision between Jeffersonian Deism and Discordianism before finally sitting down and having a good solid think about it and realizing that it was an explanation of the universe that was entirely unnecessary.

Same thing happened to my Ex ... she saw Catholicism as potentially progressive.  Then the Curia chose a Pope outside of Italy, because there wasn't any Italian clergy conservative enough for them ;-(  Pope John XXIII was their last chance, and he nearly made it.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 19, 2016, 04:13:44 AM
The problem is that most theists can't discuss things rationally.  In another forum, a theist just said (in totality) "John something" as if that was proof I was wrong. No discussion, no explanation, just a quote from the very book we were arguing did not exist as proof of Jesus. 

I don't understand these people.  There is NO rational thought in any of them. 
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: SGOS on October 19, 2016, 05:26:57 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The problem is that most theists can't discuss things rationally.  In another forum, a theist just said (in totality) "John something" as if that was proof I was wrong. No discussion, no explanation, just a quote from the very book we were arguing did not exist as proof of Jesus. 

I don't understand these people.  There is NO rational thought in any of them. 

When they do attempt to engage, the discussion that ensues is a stew of confusion, a fact here, an wild assertion there, and a host of logical fallacies.  If I let my mind become that disorganized, I would go crazy.

One way to deal with such chaos is to look for something that tells you it has all the answers and says, "Don't worry.  There is a plan, and everything is under control."  We hear this from politicians, dictators, priests, and televangelists (people who want to be recognized as necessary for your own personal well being).  Religion is a defense against the chaos of a disorganized mind.

Try and have a debate with a theist, and if you can draw them out, you will see the chaos.  It takes the familiar shape of a discussion the makes no sense.  Faith in a god of some sort is the remedy they use to deal with it.

Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 19, 2016, 05:40:37 AM
I am aware of their chaotic thinking.  That is the whole frustration.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 19, 2016, 07:29:08 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I am aware of their chaotic thinking.  That is the whole frustration.

Voltaire said .. those who can be convinced of absurdities, can be persuaded to commit atrocities ;-(
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 19, 2016, 08:16:25 AM
Makes sense, I even save worms from the driveway after it rains hard.
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Baruch on October 19, 2016, 09:41:33 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Makes sense, I even save worms from the driveway after it rains hard.

I tend to be kind to animals also, even insects.  But humans?  Maybe lower than insects ;-)
Title: Re: A Question for Everyone...
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 03:57:22 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Try and have a debate with a theist, and if you can draw them out, you will see the chaos.  It takes the familiar shape of a discussion the makes no sense.  Faith in a god of some sort is the remedy they use to deal with it.

I had a couple of theists (JWs) visit a couple of months ago.  They were not prepared for me.  For starters, I was wearing my American Atheist hat and directed their attention to it.  You would think I had answered the door with a gun in my hand!

And I was quite polite.  No yelling or anything, just nice awkward questions.  They were disturbed but unsure how to proceed with their usual spiel.  I didn't help them with that any.

After about 30 minutes of discussion, they admitted they should send a male "brother" to discuss things further.

That was sexist.  And I'm still waiting for the more talented "brother" to knock on my door some Saturday. 

Such pathetic superstition fools...