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The Debate Hall => Informal Debates => Topic started by: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 03:14:56 AM

Title: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 03:14:56 AM
follow up questions may follow.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 11, 2016, 03:17:07 AM
Why aren't you?

(Small assumption on my part.)

Ps, make an intro thread. You're not supposed to start others before you've got ten Posts.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: PickelledEggs on September 11, 2016, 03:26:03 AM
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follow up questions may follow.
Moderator Comment Please make an intro thread or you will be banned. Do not take this personally, it's just that we've had a lot of spammy posters as of late.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: PickelledEggs on September 11, 2016, 05:05:32 AM
I have a feeling he saw this. I'll probably ban him when I wake up this afternoon
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 11, 2016, 08:28:07 AM
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I have a feeling he saw this. I'll probably ban him when I wake up this afternoon

Administrator wecken!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 12:41:22 PM
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Moderator Comment Please make an intro thread or you will be banned. Do not take this personally, it's just that we've had a lot of spammy posters as of late.
Sorry. I'm going to your site through an app. I didn't see anything pop up about posting 10 or intro

Edit: I made my intro.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 11, 2016, 02:15:38 PM
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Why aren't you?

(Small assumption on my part.)

Ps, make an intro thread. You're not supposed to start others before you've got ten Posts.
Good addition from edit. I do not wish to focus on me. too many people can switch the o.p. and get off topic. then my curiosity would not be fed.

Perhaps I may go into that later but I wish to understand others first. Is this acceptable?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 11, 2016, 02:31:47 PM
The intro subforum is supposed to focus on new members. So focus on it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Johan on September 11, 2016, 02:47:42 PM
Oh what the hey, I'll give the whippersnapper a shot. I am an atheist primarily for two reasons. First, because there is no evidence that supernatural beings of any sort actually exist. The other reason I'm an atheist is the bible.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Shiranu on September 11, 2016, 03:02:00 PM
Because I don't believe in God, mostly.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on September 11, 2016, 03:03:14 PM
Because I'm not retarded.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mermaid on September 11, 2016, 03:29:10 PM
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Because I'm not retarded.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
God help me, I laughed.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 11, 2016, 03:45:03 PM
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Perhaps I may go into that later but I wish to understand others first. Is this acceptable?

When you have no Reason to believe in a deity, it's hard to explain Why you don't believe in a deity, other than by saying 'because I don't believe in a deity'.
Which would be essentially answering 'why am I an atheist?' With 'because I am an atheist.'

It is not untill someone can make a convincing argument for a god hypothesis, that a counterargument should come into play.

So if you want to hear Why I am an atheist. Let's hear Some arguments as Why not to be. If any of them make sense, you might sway me. If they don't, i'll yell you Why I don't 'believe' them. That's Why I must ask; 'why aren't you?' Before I can give you THE answer you seek.

That being said. If you don't want to explain Why you believe, that's fine. People do that here more than enough already. :p
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hydra009 on September 11, 2016, 03:46:29 PM
Me:  "I dunno about this religion stuff.  I see people claim absolute certainty about stuff they couldn't possibly know, demand other people live their lives according to what they consider correct, and generally be beholden to an ideology that they're not even allowed to question without threats of everlasting hell.  Seems kinda fucked up."

Me a few years later:  "I've been reading a few books on religion and I've found a lot of the criticisms of it to be pretty solid.  I don't know why I considered this stuff to be so plausible before.  I guess I'm an atheist now."
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mermaid on September 11, 2016, 05:40:50 PM
Serious answer: Because there is a rational explanation for everything in the natural world. There is no rational explanation that an all-powerful ghost created it all.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: PopeyesPappy on September 11, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Because we know shit happens without god, and that makes god the least likely explanation for those things we have yet to be able to figure out.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Duncle on September 12, 2016, 07:41:15 AM
I don't believe in Thor or Yahweh for the same reason that I don't believe in Santa Claus. Quite simply, there is no evidence for the existence of any god, and additional strong reasons for not believing in the specific deities of the various extant religions.

For example, Christianity:

-The bible is full of internal contradictions and furthermore runs counter to established science in many areas (e.g. the creation myth).

-The Christian God as he appears in the bible is a moral abomination, and yet christians claim that he is perfectly good, the source of all true ethics etc. Completely absurd bullshit.

-The Christian concept of their deity seems to be incoherent. The most well-known example here is the problem of evil, but there are others.

-Large chunks of Christianity have been lifted wholesale from other religions, especially Mithraism.

I could go on, but that will do for now.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: DeltaEpsilon on September 12, 2016, 08:04:05 AM
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Oh what the hey, I'll give the whippersnapper a shot. I am an atheist primarily for two reasons. First, because there is no evidence that supernatural beings of any sort actually exist. The other reason I'm an atheist is the bible.

That just means you deny the Christian god.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 12, 2016, 08:11:57 AM
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That just means you deny the Christian god.
Actually not necessarily. The Babble is a good primer on religious claims. Spotting the absurdities in that case can, and usually does, promote a healthy skepticism about such claims by other religions. So the Not So Good Book can be an important first step on the path to a rational life.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 12, 2016, 08:26:43 AM
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So if you want to hear Why I am an atheist. Let's hear Some arguments as Why not to be. If any of them make sense, you might sway me. If they don't, i'll yell you Why I don't 'believe' them. That's Why I must ask; 'why aren't you?' Before I can give you THE answer you seek.

This is an excellent question that makes a lot of sense.  I doubt if theists think about why they are not atheists.  I didn't back in the day.  I just believed in a god, and I was taught not to question it.  So why would the question, "Why am I not an atheist," even cross my mind?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 12, 2016, 08:35:27 AM
I was areligous from the start, no programming at home and the propaganda I encountered in the world at large failed to impact on me. I don't know if "native atheist" or "natural atheist" works better there, but they're shorter than "what would I be anything else?"
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 12, 2016, 08:48:51 AM
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Why are you an atheist?

Because I'm not a theist.  That might sound flippant, but it's not.  I didn't begin my journey toward atheism with that question.  It seems to me there is question of far greater importance than that trivial query. 

The first question I asked when I thought about God, was how do I know he is real?  This is the question at the very top of the importance pyramid.  It's important for at least two reasons.  First, if he is real, it has important implications for mankind and my personal life.  If he is not real, he has no import at all.  Second, the problem of existence demands to be questioned by any half way rational person, because God leaves no tracks.  If you are going to believe something, knowing (as opposed to just believing) is absolutely critical.  Otherwise you are just waving your philosophical arms around in empty space.

To answer such an important question, you must begin sifting through evidence, and objectively discard anything without substance.  Unfortunately, for me as a Christian, after years of sifting, I had nothing.  I didn't bother looking at evidence against his existence.  I only considered evidence for, because that's what is important.  I could find nothing of substance.  Hence, I couldn't prove to myself God was real, and I couldn't believe in something so insubstantial by my force of will alone.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sal1981 on September 12, 2016, 10:43:17 AM
I'm an atheist because of the disturbing lack of evidence for god(s).
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 07:58:54 PM


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The other reason I'm an atheist is the bible.
Thanks for the shot. what about the Bible seems to be support for being atheist?



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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 07:59:55 PM
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Because I'm not retarded.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
That's incredibly rude and hateful. never a good reason for an opinion , nor a good opinion to have.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 08:19:58 PM
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When you have no Reason to believe in a deity, it's hard to explain Why you don't believe in a deity, other than by saying 'because I don't believe in a deity'.
Which would be essentially answering 'why am I an atheist?' With 'because I am an atheist.'

It is not untill someone can make a convincing argument for a god hypothesis, that a counterargument should come into play.

So if you want to hear Why I am an atheist. Let's hear Some arguments as Why not to be. If any of them make sense, you might sway me. If they don't, i'll yell you Why I don't 'believe' them. That's Why I must ask; 'why aren't you?' Before I can give you THE answer you seek.

That being said. If you don't want to explain Why you believe, that's fine. People do that here more than enough already.
Excuse me. I always saw this sort of opinion as a debate. two sides to one story. in a debate all sides support their own claim with more than just criticism of opposing claim.

Similar to different opinions on gravity, we look at opposing claims and evidence.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 12, 2016, 08:20:51 PM
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Thanks for the shot. what about the Bible seems to be support for being atheist?



Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


The problem with the Bible is it doesn't support religion.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on September 12, 2016, 08:33:51 PM
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That's incredibly rude and hateful. never a good reason for an opinion , nor a good opinion to have.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
It's called hyperbole, and I tend to use it when repetitive shit like this gets posted.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: PickelledEggs on September 12, 2016, 08:54:48 PM
Because my dogs farts could clear out Soddom and Gomorrah faster than god could even hope to
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 12, 2016, 09:06:04 PM
OP, did you look around before you started this thread?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on September 12, 2016, 11:19:27 PM
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OP, did you look around before you started this thread?

I'm going to go ahead and say, that since this is posted in "Informal Debates" (as in, the OP thinks this is even debatable, hello), that they already had their opinion and DID NOT 'look around'. At all. LOL.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on September 12, 2016, 11:20:55 PM
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follow up questions may follow.

Because I've never seen a reason to think otherwise.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 11:58:08 PM


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The problem with the Bible is it doesn't support religion.
How may this be so?
The Bible was compiled by a religion.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 11:58:52 PM
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It's called hyperbole, and I tend to use it when repetitive shit like this gets posted.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Oh-okay. your opinion is repetitive shit. good day.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on September 13, 2016, 12:00:59 AM
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Oh-okay. your opinion is repetitive shit. good day.

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The lack of self awareness on display here is lovely.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 12:02:15 AM
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OP, did you look around before you started this thread?
Some yes. lot to read in so little time. plus I come across the same issue: majority of argument  for an opinion is criticism of another opinion.

I wantes to try and get away from that a bit though welcoming new thoughts.

 for example: I have yet to see the comment about the Bible being counter productive or unsupportive to religion. I look forward to reading that.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 12:11:09 AM
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I'm going to go ahead and say, that since this is posted in "Informal Debates" (as in, the OP thinks this is even debatable, hello), that they already had their opinion and DID NOT 'look around'. At all. LOL.
I prefer the atmosphere of a debate. to me, it means a person will stick to their side and support. just as they would stay to the topic of the thread.

I like a good conversation. so be it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on September 13, 2016, 01:23:36 AM
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I prefer the atmosphere of a debate. to me, it means a person will stick to their side and support. just as they would stay to the topic of the thread.

I like a good conversation. so be it.

But see, according to you, this is "shots fired". According to me, this is "please can we pull a debate out our assholes?"

There is no debate, at all, because prove life continues after death, and THEN we can discuss where it goes, after that. But until you have something to show for your positive claim of life after death (just for humans, not for ants or oak trees, of course) (I understand this is a LOT),  then you also have absolute fuck-all to show for any type of deity also existing, let alone the Christian one.

So "debate"? Ridiculous. On it's face.

Have a nice day.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 13, 2016, 02:00:09 AM
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Excuse me. I always saw this sort of opinion as a debate. two sides to one story. in a debate all sides support their own claim with more than just criticism of opposing claim.

Similar to different opinions on gravity, we look at opposing claims and evidence.

Problem with that is, mate, is that you won't find me making a claim that god does not exist.
I am not offering evidence of absence, but as long as there is absence of evidence, with me the god- claim doesn't fly.
You might have a claim to prove, I don't. Easy as that.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 13, 2016, 06:07:24 AM
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How may this be so?
The Bible was compiled by a religion.
The Bible is compiled by people seeking power over other people. Religion is just the tool they use.

But, more precisely, the Holy Bible is wholly babble when one tries to read it. And it makes the Judeo-Christian God look like an utter asshole.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 13, 2016, 07:11:41 AM
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Excuse me. I always saw this sort of opinion as a debate. two sides to one story. in a debate all sides support their own claim with more than just criticism of opposing claim.  Similar to different opinions on gravity, we look at opposing claims and evidence.

If you want to debate, it's time to state your position.  We are three pages in.

Now if all you are wanting to do is satisfy your curiosity as you stated earlier, then there would be no reason to even discuss your rules of debate.  Try to focus on your reason for being here.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 10:17:14 AM


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I was areligous from the start, no programming at home and the propaganda I encountered in the world at large failed to impact on me. I don't know if "native atheist" or "natural atheist" works better there, but they're shorter than "what would I be anything else?"
Intriguing. what would natural or native refer to; having ease to be an atheist?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 10:32:34 AM
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Problem with that is, mate, is that you won't find me making a claim that god does not exist.
I am not offering evidence of absence, but as long as there is absence of evidence, with me the god- claim doesn't fly.
You might have a claim to prove, I don't. Easy as that.
Why do you not? Does a person not justify their own belief?

I don't know how absence of evidence justifies a claim when even in a debate both sides have support that is positive to their own claim.

For example, why are we not perfect?

If there was a God what characteristics would that God have and would that God not want us to be perfect?

I am sure the struggle and division in life may be presented in a way to question not just character but used to justify doubt. And this is just me thinking about an example.

Why would there or should there not be some support to make that doesn't rely on an opposing party?

I have watched debates on other topics and there seems to be some support that doesn't just criticise the other side (though this is understandable and necessary). support that is even separate from the opposing side at times.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 10:37:25 AM


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The Bible is compiled by people seeking power over other people. Religion is just the tool they use.

But, more precisely, the Holy Bible is wholly babble when one tries to read it. And it makes the Judeo-Christian God look like an utter asshole.

I don't understand your point. perhaps you may add support?

if Bible doesn't support the people who compiled it.
the people who compiled it only did so to control people
then would this not suggest that
a. the Bible is not written as you state
b. the Bible was not compiled by the people which is claimed to be out for control
c. things are not as they are stated.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 13, 2016, 10:43:00 AM
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If you want to debate, it's time to state your position.  We are three pages in.

Now if all you are wanting to do is satisfy your curiosity as you stated earlier, then there would be no reason to even discuss your rules of debate.  Try to focus on your reason for being here.
that is not my rules for a debate. that is what I have seen during debates. debates in class, heard on radio, tournaments, etc.

logical to me that a person would have an opinion based on support similar to how a person in a debate would have support.

why should this opinion be anything different?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 13, 2016, 10:56:34 AM
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Intriguing. what would natural or native refer to; having ease to be an atheist?

Never being anything else. All religious people are programmed in their belief.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 13, 2016, 11:15:18 AM
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Why do you not? Does a person not justify their own belief?

I don't know how absence of evidence justifies a claim when even in a debate both sides have support that is positive to their own claim.

For example, why are we not perfect?

If there was a God what characteristics would that God have and would that God not want us to be perfect?

I am sure the struggle and division in life may be presented in a way to question not just character but used to justify doubt. And this is just me thinking about an example.

Why would there or should there not be some support to make that doesn't rely on an opposing party?

I have watched debates on other topics and there seems to be some support that doesn't just criticise the other side (though this is understandable and necessary). support that is even separate from the opposing side at times.

If I made a claim and had a belief, I'd be with you in that I'd have to justify it.
But I make no claim and I have no belief in this matter. Only a lack thereoff.
And this lack of belief, my atheism, does not stem from evidence against the existance of any or multiple deities. It stems from those actually making claims of the existence of God(s) never producing anything worthwhile or remotely convincing to support said beliefs and claims.

Look at it this way. Say I were to claim that I am possessed by the ghost of Napoleon. Would it be up to you to prove that I'm not? How can you even prove that I'm not? You don't have te believe me, however, and as such, you'd lack the belief in the claim that I'm making. And if I can't present you decent evidence, you are justified in that lack of beliefs without the need to support it.

In short, the burden of proof is on you. As it would be on me, if I were to try to convince you Napoleon coinhabited my body.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on September 13, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
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I have a feeling he saw this. I'll probably ban him when I wake up this afternoon

Good night, Wesley, sleep tight, I'll most likely kill you in the morning...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on September 13, 2016, 06:35:47 PM
I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Rain God, the Sun God and other such similar absurdities. God is just a word people say when they really mean "I don't know."
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: PickelledEggs on September 13, 2016, 06:37:56 PM
I'm an atheist because I'm god, but don't believe in myself.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: aitm on September 13, 2016, 08:32:23 PM
I was bout 15 when this Jehovah Witness gal tried to recruit me. She also got a little horny when we talked about religion, the further I went into the "darkness" the harder she tried to lure me out with by letting me finger her. I finally told her I was an atheist and she unzipped me and gave me a wicked hand job. Not bad for a 15 yr old. Enjoyed it too. Now I am convinced atheists get more snatch.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on September 14, 2016, 07:53:14 PM
Couldn't prove it by me - maybe I'm the exception?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Johan on September 14, 2016, 08:45:36 PM
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what about the Bible seems to be support for being atheist?

For me I guess its because I don't think it would moral of me to cut off my wife's hand if she were to accidentally touch the balls of some dude who is beating the shit out of me. Guess I'm just a rebel that way.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: doorknob on September 14, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
I have many reasons to be an atheist but probably the biggest and most significant reason is that I don't believe in god. There really isn't a good reason to think that there is one. It's all superstition.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on September 15, 2016, 07:28:36 PM
As a resident theist, I am not part of this string, but I can say that I believe in atheists.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on September 15, 2016, 07:32:52 PM
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Excuse me. I always saw this sort of opinion as a debate. two sides to one story. in a debate all sides support their own claim with more than just criticism of opposing claim.

Similar to different opinions on gravity, we look at opposing claims and evidence.

You want to debate gravity?  I will just toss you off the roof!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on September 15, 2016, 07:35:37 PM
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I prefer the atmosphere of a debate. to me, it means a person will stick to their side and support. just as they would stay to the topic of the thread.

I like a good conversation. so be it.

Debates only happen if two people are involved, if both are rational, and both accept the same axioms.  Since not all criteria are met, there are no true debates.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on September 15, 2016, 07:36:39 PM
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I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Rain God, the Sun God and other such similar absurdities. God is just a word people say when they really mean "I don't know."

But I do know ... checkmate ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 15, 2016, 07:55:02 PM
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If I made a claim and had a belief, I'd be with you in that I'd have to justify it.
But I make no claim and I have no belief in this matter. Only a lack thereoff.
And this lack of belief, my atheism, does not stem from evidence against the existance of any or multiple deities. It stems from those actually making claims of the existence of God(s) never producing anything worthwhile or remotely convincing to support said beliefs and claims.

Look at it this way. Say I were to claim that I am possessed by the ghost of Napoleon. Would it be up to you to prove that I'm not? How can you even prove that I'm not? You don't have te believe me, however, and as such, you'd lack the belief in the claim that I'm making. And if I can't present you decent evidence, you are justified in that lack of beliefs without the need to support it.

In short, the burden of proof is on you. As it would be on me, if I were to try to convince you Napoleon coinhabited my body.

Even disbelief or the lack there of is a belief in something. If I were to say you are not possess by a ghost of Napoleon (of whom I would guess you refer to the historical figure) : there are three stances I could take.

Either
a. I believe you
b. I don't believe you
c. I'm neutral and don't know what to believe.

both b. and c. lack belief but both are still different. agree?

if I am to say you are not catrering to a French war general and emperor, then it is because I refuse the statement and take a stance opposite or in opposition to yours. I tell myself and provide my own support as to why. Regardless to what those reasons are I must rely on my own support in order to make a decision - otherwise I remain neutral. that is logical.

I do agree that my stance against your spiritual embodiment may not be due to evidence against your statement, but I would still try to think it out.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 15, 2016, 08:00:11 PM


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For me I guess its because I don't think it would moral of me to cut off my wife's hand if she were to accidentally touch the balls of some dude who is beating the shit out of me. Guess I'm just a rebel that way.
I know of no such circumstances. by your mannerism expressed, I sense false pretenses based on loose understandings. no worries. I do carry my own loose understandings as well. it is why I focus on  study.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sal1981 on September 16, 2016, 08:43:33 AM
^you don't know your Bible then, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 16, 2016, 12:30:20 PM
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Even disbelief or the lack there of is a belief in something. If I were to say you are not possess by a ghost of Napoleon (of whom I would guess you refer to the historical figure) : there are three stances I could take.

Either
a. I believe you
b. I don't believe you
c. I'm neutral and don't know what to believe.

both b. and c. lack belief but both are still different. agree?

if I am to say you are not catrering to a French war general and emperor, then it is because I refuse the statement and take a stance opposite or in opposition to yours. I tell myself and provide my own support as to why. Regardless to what those reasons are I must rely on my own support in order to make a decision - otherwise I remain neutral. that is logical.

I do agree that my stance against your spiritual embodiment may not be due to evidence against your statement, but I would still try to think it out.

It wouldn't really make a difference if it's either the old French warmonger or the dude with the 'fro, now would it? :D

A lack of beliefs is just that; a lack of beliefs. You ask why I, amongst others, am an atheist. And you agree that your 'stance against my spiritual embodiment may not be due to evidence against my statement'. So you understand what I'm saying, don't you? You're more than welcome to spend your time actively thinking about reasons why Napoleon isn't in my body. But you seem to agree that you don't need to in order to be justified in your position of disbelief regarding my claim and whatever shoddy evidence I may try to enforce it with.

For instance, you might believe I'm clinically insane. And to prove that, you may point to the long, hypothetical list of psycho-social illness in my family. Or to the years I spent in a mental hospital. Or to the shitload of heroin I inject daily. You may present that as 'evidence' for a belief you posit: me being high or me being insane or ... You can't prove the negative claim that Napoleon isn't haunting me with these evidences, but you can certainly lend credence to your beliefs.
But you don't have to have such an alternative explanation to my claim of spiritual emporial unification to be justified in not taking my word for it, now do you? Nor if I present my evidence; which would be that I often find myself putting my hand across my stomach in Napoleon's fashion. Your belief may be that I'm insane. Another's belief may be that I'm doing too much drugs. Another's belief may be that I'm just a dumb-as-a-rock guy with digestion-burn-problems. And another may just say; that's just stupid evidence that doesn't lead any credence to your claim. You and the others may agree with this last guy and still dissagree amongst yourselves. But you are all justified to the last guy's lack of belief, but are only justified in your own specific belief if you can prove it.

An other example, staying on the topic of emperors, would be the emperor's clothes. I assume you are familiar with the fairytale.
Seeing as people can't measure the emperor's clothes. And they can't scientifically examine the emperor's clothes. And they can't test the emperor's clothes... In other words simply no one can prove the emperor's clothes are actually there, are you not justified in lacking the belief that the clothes are there despite that all the others around you show the belief the clothes are there? (Let alone on the fact that no-one can agree what the clothes exactly look like.)
As soon as someone tries to convince you, let's say by saying obviously the emperor is wearing clothes because everyone else can see them, one may point out that if they can't physically prove them this all could very well be a form of mass-delusion or an attempt to not look stupid; showing why their 'evidence' isn't 'evidence'. If you don't believe the clothes are there, that's all you need to do to be justified in your position. If you believe the clothes aren't there, you need to go ahead and prove it. But why take that stance and take on that daunting task of proving a negative if you are justified by the opposition's lack of evidence?

Now, let's flip the scenario back to the god-claim. There are arguments one can make against the probability of the existance of a deity and definitely any known specific hypothetical deity. I agree. Many do that here often. Heck, I could do that. And it's fine. It can be a good thinking-exercise. But that wouldn't be the bedrock of my atheism. Which is what you yourself inquired after. When people make a god-claim and offer their evidence, we see the holes in their fabric and manage to point them out. That alone, until good evidence comes forth, is enough to justify the atheist position.
I don't believe there is a god. That's as far as I can go with this. I could say I believe there is no God, but I would not really be able to prove said negative claim. Ever. So why do it? It would only feed the god-claiment's mistaken assumption that both positions need evidence to work. But only one does, because the other can just be nothing more than a justified refusal of a weak claim and it's shoddy evidence.


Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 16, 2016, 03:13:16 PM
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b. I don't believe you
c. I'm neutral and don't know what to believe.

both b. and c. lack belief but both are still different. agree?

No, they are actually the same.  And to truly understand atheism, you need to be able to see why.  Ready to listen?  First, throw out all preconceptions, most of all what your pastor says.  Don't cling to what you think you have learned.

First, look at it this way.  If you are neutral and don't know what to believe, then by definition, combined with the sentence construction used, you DO NOT BELIEVE.  In other words you only believe if you can actually say you believe.  If you argue that you could believe in spite of not knowing what to [you] believe, you are arguing an absurdity ([I don't know if I believe in God, but I believe in God]).  I know you don't think it is [an absurdity], and I thought that at one time too, but I was wrong.

Second, try this way.  If you cannot assert that YOU BELIEVE, then by deduction, YOU DON'T BELIEVE.

This is the definition of atheism.  Many dictionaries define atheism as a bold assertion, but that definition is used because most theists (the majority) have come to understand atheism incorrectly as an assertion against the existence of gods.  It's an idiosyncratic definition that is problematic, and actually only addresses a small minority of the atheist population.  I think theists mitigate the problematic definition by lumping the neutrals into the set of agnostics, but while we could debate the semantics of atheist, calling the neutrals "agnostic" is totally wrong.  The actual definition of agnostic is simply a person who believes there is no way of knowing.  It does not dictate that a person cannot be a theist or an atheist.  It does not dictate a belief state.  Only that there can be no knowledge.

In believing, the neutral option is still a state of not believing.  It makes no difference that it's neutral as contrasted to a bold assertion that the belief is wrong.  It's an empty state without any assertion, but there is still no belief.  And that's the definition of atheist.  The "a" in atheist means without [gods], but not against, and not opposed, and certainly not morally bankrupt and vile to his rotten core.  It just means "without".  It's the neutral default state.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 16, 2016, 03:23:04 PM
Man walks into a bar. Sees me with my atheist t-shirt on sitting at the bar. He walks over and sits down next to me.

"Tell me, why are you an atheist?"

I pull a gun and shoot him twice in the forehead.

"Damn stupid question."

Bartender dumps body in the pit out back.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 16, 2016, 04:28:17 PM
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Man walks into a bar. Sees me with my atheist t-shirt on sitting at the bar. He walks over and sits down next to me.

"Tell me, why are you an atheist?"

I pull a gun and shoot him twice in the forehead.

"Damn stupid question."

Bartender dumps body in the pit out back.

You do have a way with distilling things down to their essence.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 16, 2016, 04:47:44 PM
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You do have a way with distilling things down to their essence.
Communicating in battle leads to terseness.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on September 16, 2016, 05:37:56 PM
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Man walks into a bar. Sees me with my atheist t-shirt on sitting at the bar. He walks over and sits down next to me.

"Tell me, why are you an atheist?"

I pull a gun and shoot him twice in the forehead.

"Damn stupid question."

Bartender dumps body in the pit out back.

Extended paraphrase on my "believing gravity" comment on the previous page?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 16, 2016, 05:53:12 PM
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Extended paraphrase on my "believing gravity" comment on the previous page?
Didn't read it, sorry.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 06:06:33 PM
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^you don't know your Bible then, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.
Does anyone here?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sal1981 on September 16, 2016, 06:07:23 PM
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Does anyone here?
Yes.

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk

Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 16, 2016, 06:10:19 PM
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Does anyone here?
Seriously? You don't know the bible like some atheists do. Especially those in the Clergy Project.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 06:34:16 PM
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It wouldn't really make a difference if it's either the old French warmonger or the dude with the 'fro, now would it? :D

A lack of beliefs is just that; a lack of beliefs. You ask why I, amongst others, am an atheist. And you agree that your 'stance against my spiritual embodiment may not be due to evidence against my statement'. So you understand what I'm saying, don't you? You're more than welcome to spend your time actively thinking about reasons why Napoleon isn't in my body. But you seem to agree that you don't need to in order to be justified in your position of disbelief regarding my claim and whatever shoddy evidence I may try to enforce it with.
well doing and being justified for what I am doing is different. or so I would consider it to be.  anyone can think this or that with out having a reason to think it or to be "justified" for thinking it.

a person that is justified in their action or thinking would carry some support for their thought or action.

though a person can be absent of all evidence and still have a  belief or disbelief - would that not be an appeal to ignorance?

Quote
For instance, you might believe I'm clinically insane. And to prove that, you may point to the long, hypothetical list of psycho-social illness in my family. Or to the years I spent in a mental hospital. Or to the shitload of heroin I inject daily. You may present that as 'evidence' for a belief you posit: me being high or me being insane or ... You can't prove the negative claim that Napoleon isn't haunting me with these evidences, but you can certainly lend credence to your beliefs.
But you don't have to have such an alternative explanation to my claim of spiritual emporial unification to be justified in not taking my word for it, now do you? Nor if I present my evidence; which would be that I often find myself putting my hand across my stomach in Napoleon's fashion. Your belief may be that I'm insane. Another's belief may be that I'm doing too much drugs. Another's belief may be that I'm just a dumb-as-a-rock guy with digestion-burn-problems. And another may just say; that's just stupid evidence that doesn't lead any credence to your claim. You and the others may agree with this last guy and still dissagree amongst yourselves. But you are all justified to the last guy's lack of belief, but are only justified in your own specific belief if you can prove it.
1.good use of "spiritual emporial unification" I smiled a bit.

 2. even with the last man being correct in his statement. the truth to the situation may still be unknown or in your favor. myself and the others may still be incorrect and you correct just because the support you provided was found to be unreliable by opinion. where as the evidence that supports your situation ... supports your claim would still be unknown.

That last man can still hold a neutral stance on the situation as to whether or not you would pertain a ghostly appetite for conquest.

Sorry Edit: that one man can call out all support for or against your claim as b.s. but still logically only hold one stance because of his inability to make a positive or negative claim. that stance is neutral.  no opinion.

3. I almost want to start a thread just for sarcastic descriptions of a ghost inhabiting a human.

Quote
An other example, staying on the topic of emperors, would be the emperor's clothes. I assume you are familiar with the fairytale.
Seeing as people can't measure the emperor's clothes. And they can't scientifically examine the emperor's clothes. And they can't test the emperor's clothes... In other words simply no one can prove the emperor's clothes are actually there, are you not justified in lacking the belief that the clothes are there despite that all the others around you show the belief the clothes are there? (Let alone on the fact that no-one can agree what the clothes exactly look like.)
As soon as someone tries to convince you, let's say by saying obviously the emperor is wearing clothes because everyone else can see them, one may point out that if they can't physically prove them this all could very well be a form of mass-delusion or an attempt to not look stupid; showing why their 'evidence' isn't 'evidence'. If you don't believe the clothes are there, that's all you need to do to be justified in your position. If you believe the clothes aren't there, you need to go ahead and prove it. But why take that stance and take on that daunting task of proving a negative if you are justified by the opposition's lack of evidence?
sorry this one doesn't work for me. I heard this story which adds to why it doesn't work.  the example also describes a physical thing that can only be portrayed or examined in a limited way. either you feel it or you don't.

Quote
Now, let's flip the scenario back to the god-claim. There are arguments one can make against the probability of the existance of a deity and definitely any known specific hypothetical deity. I agree. Many do that here often. Heck, I could do that. And it's fine. It can be a good thinking-exercise. But that wouldn't be the bedrock of my atheism. Which is what you yourself inquired after. When people make a god-claim and offer their evidence, we see the holes in their fabric and manage to point them out. That alone, until good evidence comes forth, is enough to justify the atheist position.
I don't believe there is a god. That's as far as I can go with this. I could say I believe there is no God, but I would not really be able to prove said negative claim. Ever. So why do it? It would only feed the god-claiment's mistaken assumption that both positions need evidence to work. But only one does, because the other can just be nothing more than a justified refusal of a weak claim and it's shoddy evidence.
I roll off what I propose above. I believe there is misunderstanding as to why a person is as they say they are.

swell to see a comment towards why a person is as they think they are, but I would not consider provided explanation as justification for a negative claim.

oh well. swell talking.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 06:38:31 PM
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Seriously? You don't know the bible like some atheists do. Especially those in the Clergy Project.
Some atheists don't know the Bible as well as they think they do.  Same may be said for clergy and practicing religious. this is why it should be studied with an open mind.

Edit: too many as well. anyways what is this clergy project?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 16, 2016, 06:52:29 PM
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Some atheists don't know the Bible as well as they think they do.  Same may be said for clergy and practicing religious. this is why it should be studied with an open mind.

Edit: too many as well. anyways what is this clergy project?
You are talking out your ass.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Johan on September 16, 2016, 07:21:21 PM
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I know of no such circumstances. by your mannerism expressed, I sense false pretenses based on loose understandings. no worries. I do carry my own loose understandings as well. it is why I focus on  study.

So you've decided to leave deuteronomy off your biblical buffet plate then?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Johan on September 16, 2016, 07:29:24 PM
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Some atheists don't know the Bible as well as they think they do.  Same may be said for clergy and practicing religious. this is why it should be studied with an open mind.
Either you don't understand what the term open mind means or you don't understand atheists.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 16, 2016, 08:23:04 PM

And too lazy to google "Clergy Project".
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: doorknob on September 16, 2016, 08:45:15 PM
"you don't have to be so open minded that your brains fall out"
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 08:52:12 PM
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So you've decided to leave deuteronomy off your biblical buffet plate then?
No. Deuto is present and well. I remember the taking of hands was for thieves and no passages described a woman as having sinned when she is attacked.

Instead the attacker would have been killed. But many of these laws were man's law.T here is more than Just God in the Bible - or so this is how some Christians describe the Bible.


Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: doorknob on September 16, 2016, 08:52:53 PM
actually I was very open minded while reading the bible and I still determined it to be bull shit. The bible has a lot of very juvenile and shallow teachings. As you would expect to see from its time period.

Nothing special or inspirational there sorry. And I was raised catholic so don't tell me about not knowing what's in the bible. I even had bible study. I still was able to see through it. It's a bunch of garbage that needs to die.

Religion is like a weapon. Yes it can be used for good but often for evil.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 08:53:04 PM
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Either you don't understand what the term open mind means or you don't understand atheists.
I understand the term, and I find it most ironic when said by those who do not mean it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 08:53:57 PM
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"you don't have to be so open minded that your brains fall out"
You must be a free thinker.



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actually I was very open minded while reading the bible and I still determined it to be bull shit. The bible has a lot of very juvenile and shallow teachings. As you would expect to see from its time period.

Nothing special or inspirational there sorry. And I was raised catholic so don't tell me about not knowing what's in the bible. I even had bible study. I still was able to see through it. It's a bunch of garbage that needs to die.

Religion is like a weapon. Yes it can be used for good but often for evil.

What is evil?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 16, 2016, 08:57:36 PM
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Yes.

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
Then what is my Bible?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: doorknob on September 16, 2016, 09:12:59 PM
I'm guessing you want more than just a dictionary definition?

But evil is the mistreatment of our fellow humans due to the spread of lies and misconceptions of religion. More specifically the christian religion. The only thing that holds the christian base in control is the separation of church and state. The smartest thing our ancestors ever did. The bible enforces superstition and a child's level of understanding of the world around them. While Christianity may have got a few things right, the obvious stealing killing and lying, it also got a lot of things wrong. I am an atheists and I know a few atheists albeit not many. But I've known enough to know that atheists are not evil sinning people. We are just as moral as our fellow humans christian or not.

But your holy book teaches that atheists are evil and deserving of hell. That is immoral.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 17, 2016, 06:11:41 AM
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Then what is my Bible?
A collection of tall tales told to keep the priests from having to actually work for a living.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: aitm on September 17, 2016, 08:07:20 AM
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No. Deuto is present and well. I remember the taking of hands was for thieves and no passages described a woman as having sinned when she is attacked.

Instead the attacker would have been killed. But many of these laws were man's law.T here is more than Just God in the Bible - or so this is how some Christians describe the Bible.

In short, the twit doesn't even know his own babble. Just another twit trying to teach us about shit we already know of which he has no knowledge. Typical twit.


Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 17, 2016, 08:10:48 AM
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Then what is my Bible?

6000 years ago, people didn't know much about the world or natural events.  Given the evolution of intelligence, which was both an advantage and a curse, life was suddenly confronted with a new level of confusion.  Getting caught in a rainstorm became more than getting wet and instinctively seeking shelter.  With intelligence, people were confronted with thinking about these things on a philosophical level.  Man started to realize he had a modicum of control over his environment.  I doubt that he thought of it as control.  It was probably more like the delight of a baby in a crib realizing he can make the doo dad over his head spin around by kicking it with his little baby feet.

With the creating of symbols and writing, the best of the writers found it personally advantageous to find things to write about.  But at a time in man's micro evolution, what is there to write about when you know just about nothing by today's standards?  Fantasy and fiction has always been a good bet.  I doubt that these pre-Christian men had nefarious goals, although some probably did, because after all, that is man's nature, so they would make things up.  Others who realized these writers were a leg up in the brains department, would naturally read their musings with a great deal of interest, as if the writers had special knowledge.  After all, they were the best writers of the day, so they probably knew a bunch of other stuff too, right?

It's the same thing we see to day.  People attribute Donald Trump with knowing a lot of things, like how to run a country on the basis that he is incredibly wealthy.  We defer to wealth and credit it with skills beyond the wealth itself.  We give credit that isn't warranted.

So some of these writers attempted to explain what no one knew.  In fact, at that stage of man's intellectual development, even the writers themselves didn't know anything, but they were good writers.  The supernatural was always a hot topic.  It would have been an outgrowth of the inherent ignorance of man, explaining the things that could not be explained, and it offered comfort to the ignorant.  The answers didn't have to be right.  They didn't even have to be rational, but they were disseminated by the intellectually elite, people who could write.

Combined with man's innate gullibility, which is still as natural to mankind today as it was in his history, it's easy to see how these writings, which offered comfort to the ignorant and the gullible could eventually find their way into anthologies, edited and revised by those seeking power and wealth.  Religion, along with writing, was advancing to the next level of authority riding on the skills and tools developed by others.  It's like politicians and corporations hiring consultants and specialists in understanding the psychological tools that have been discovered to make people want to buy more Bufferin or the next generation of the iPhone or to believe whatever gives those in power an extra advantage.

So we end up with holy books for thousands of different religions and philosophies down through the ages.  Some religions fare better than others and develop a transient advantage until something more effective catches on.  Christianity has its Bible.  It's revered by many, offers explanations for things that have no explanations, and offers them as ultimate truths.  But in the end, the texts included in the Bible are the offerings of ancient men steeped in a level of ignorance that is difficult to comprehend in the modern world.

That is the Bible that people adore and revere.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Johan on September 17, 2016, 10:04:03 AM
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No. Deuto is present and well. I remember the taking of hands was for thieves and no passages described a woman as having sinned when she is attacked.

Instead the attacker would have been killed. But many of these laws were man's law.T here is more than Just God in the Bible - or so this is how some Christians describe the Bible.



Read what I wrote. No one said anything about the woman being attacked. It was her husband that was being attacked. Or possibly it was her husband that was attacking another. The passage doesn't really make it clear who started it. Apparently it doesn't matter who started it. If the wife of one man steps in to help her husband and touches the other man's wedding tackle, you must cut off her hand and show her no pity. Seems pretty straight forward to me what god is telling us to do in this particular situation. And yeah, call me crazy but it seems pretty immoral to me.


Quote
If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on September 17, 2016, 10:27:44 AM
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Read what I wrote. No one said anything about the woman being attacked. It was her husband that was being attacked. Or possibly it was her husband that was attacking another. The passage doesn't really make it clear who started it. Apparently it doesn't matter who started it. If the wife of one man steps in to help her husband and touches the other man's wedding tackle, you must cut off her hand and show her no pity. Seems pretty straight forward to me what god is telling us to do in this particular situation. And yeah, call me crazy but it seems pretty immoral to me.

This is why cops still fear to go into domestic violence situations.  They could try to separate the squabbling couple (like the people next door to me, they always argue loudly).  But the cop might try to protect the wife, but she might knife the cop for disturbing her peace.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 17, 2016, 10:51:42 AM
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Read what I wrote. No one said anything about the woman being attacked. It was her husband that was being attacked. Or possibly it was her husband that was attacking another. The passage doesn't really make it clear who started it. Apparently it doesn't matter who started it. If the wife of one man steps in to help her husband and touches the other man's wedding tackle, you must cut off her hand and show her no pity. Seems pretty straight forward to me what god is telling us to do in this particular situation. And yeah, call me crazy but it seems pretty immoral to me.

While the Bible is filled with literally hundreds of disgusting and immoral commands, it's best for the lay people to disregard those parts, just as the true believer does.  It probably means something other than what it literally says and only a true believer can comprehend that something incomprehensibly disgusting is really inspiring and praise worthy.  God would never inspire a goat herder to write something more befitting of Satan.  That's not how God is.  God is perfect goodness, and everything he offers us is true, divine, and therefore perfectly good.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 17, 2016, 11:00:49 AM
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While the Bible is filled with literally hundreds of disgusting and immoral commands, it's best for the lay people to disregard those parts, just as the true believer does.  It probably means something other than what it literally says and only a true believer can comprehend that something incomprehensibly disgusting is really inspiring and praise worthy.  God would never inspire a goat herder to write something more befitting of Satan.  That's not how God is.  God is perfect goodness, and everything he offers us is true, divine, and therefore perfectly good.
(http://rationalia.com/z/sarcasm.gif)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Jason78 on September 18, 2016, 03:07:58 AM
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why are you an atheist?

Why be anything else?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: PickelledEggs on September 18, 2016, 03:36:06 AM
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A collection of tall tales told to keep the priests from having to actually work for a living.
Yeah. It's kind of like Paul Bunyan and the Blue Ox..... except it has more incest and murder. Both have giants, though
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on September 18, 2016, 04:35:40 AM
Why am I an atheist?  Because there's no evidence to be anything else.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 18, 2016, 08:30:37 AM
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Why am I an atheist?  Because there's no evidence to be anything else.
BUT! You have the evidence of the Universe! The Cosmic All! How can you not be a believer in a power higher than yourself who created all this crap just to make you feel special?

Seriously, some people. (http://rationalia.com/z/toetap.gif)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on September 18, 2016, 10:29:42 AM
Why am I an atheist?  Because the Norse Gods are out of favor where I live.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 18, 2016, 12:16:03 PM
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well doing and being justified for what I am doing is different. or so I would consider it to be.  anyone can think this or that with out having a reason to think it or to be "justified" for thinking it.

a person that is justified in their action or thinking would carry some support for their thought or action.

though a person can be absent of all evidence and still have a  belief or disbelief - would that not be an appeal to ignorance?
1.good use of "spiritual emporial unification" I smiled a bit.

 2. even with the last man being correct in his statement. the truth to the situation may still be unknown or in your favor. myself and the others may still be incorrect and you correct just because the support you provided was found to be unreliable by opinion. where as the evidence that supports your situation ... supports your claim would still be unknown.

That last man can still hold a neutral stance on the situation as to whether or not you would pertain a ghostly appetite for conquest.

Sorry Edit: that one man can call out all support for or against your claim as b.s. but still logically only hold one stance because of his inability to make a positive or negative claim. that stance is neutral.  no opinion.

3. I almost want to start a thread just for sarcastic descriptions of a ghost inhabiting a human.
 sorry this one doesn't work for me. I heard this story which adds to why it doesn't work.  the example also describes a physical thing that can only be portrayed or examined in a limited way. either you feel it or you don't.
 I roll off what I propose above. I believe there is misunderstanding as to why a person is as they say they are.

swell to see a comment towards why a person is as they think they are, but I would not consider provided explanation as justification for a negative claim.

oh well. swell talking.

Thank you, I try to talk in an entertaining way. Especially when making longer posts. I often fail miserably, I think. So it's nice to hear.
Though I'm not talking as swell as I'd like. Or you would realize I'm not making a negative claim. That's exactly the point; I'm not going to make a negative claim. You might make a positive one. And if you don't support it well, I'm happy to point out why your positive claim is supported. But I'm not going to superimpose a negative claim just because you don't provide any valid evidence for your positive one. And in not making a negative claim, i.e. God doesn't exist, but at the same time not finding the positive claim valid, I fall back into the position of 'not seeing evidence for God', which makes me an atheist; because I have no reason to believe in a God.
Maybe if I were a better talker, I wouldn't be spending three posts trying to explain the burden of proof.

Also, sorry to hear the emperor's clothes doesn't work for you. It's actually, if you don't mind me saying it, a pretty good analogy in my opinion. Maybe you could point out exactly what it is that you think doesn't fit. Your reply was a bit vague on that, I feel.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Atheon on September 18, 2016, 07:05:33 PM
Why am I an atheist? Because I don't believe in god(s).
Why don't I believe in god(s)? Because there's no reason to.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on September 19, 2016, 10:48:54 PM
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Thank you, I try to talk in an entertaining way. Especially when making longer posts. I often fail miserably, I think. So it's nice to hear.
Though I'm not talking as swell as I'd like. Or you would realize I'm not making a negative claim. That's exactly the point; I'm not going to make a negative claim. You might make a positive one. And if you don't support it well, I'm happy to point out why your positive claim is supported. But I'm not going to superimpose a negative claim just because you don't provide any valid evidence for your positive one. And in not making a negative claim, i.e. God doesn't exist, but at the same time not finding the positive claim valid, I fall back into the position of 'not seeing evidence for God', which makes me an atheist; because I have no reason to believe in a God.
Maybe if I were a better talker, I wouldn't be spending three posts trying to explain the burden of proof.

Also, sorry to hear the emperor's clothes doesn't work for you. It's actually, if you don't mind me saying it, a pretty good analogy in my opinion. Maybe you could point out exactly what it is that you think doesn't fit. Your reply was a bit vague on that, I feel.
Very well. as stated, this was still a nice conversation.

I remember that the guy making the king's clothes was lying about the invisible clothing. if he generated the clothing, then he would know if it were real.

perhaps I'm looking at it too literal but if we know the man is lying then I know whether the clothes were real or not.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on September 20, 2016, 01:55:31 AM
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Very well. as stated, this was still a nice conversation.

I remember that the guy making the king's clothes was lying about the invisible clothing. if he generated the clothing, then he would know if it were real.

perhaps I'm looking at it too literal but if we know the man is lying then I know whether the clothes were real or not.

All I can say to that is I didn't intend you to be the one the story is told to. For the analogy to work, you must be one in the crowd, in the story.
If we were to observe outside of time and place the creation of 'false' religions and 'false' sects, we might come to realize Some of them are fake because for instance The creator of said faiths lied and did it as a conman. *cough* *cough* mormonism *cough*
But while we live in this reality and it's not a story told to us, we don't have that luxury. Nor do the people in our stories :)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on September 20, 2016, 02:09:26 AM
I actually lied earlier. I'm not an atheist. There is a god, and his name is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLyiHHEHylw
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 20, 2016, 06:40:15 AM
I have been standing on this neutral position almost all my life. That's because I have never been indoctrinated growing up. About anything.

Meanwhile, there are billions of some things around who keep claiming that they are something out of the same thing versus other similar some things out of the same thing -so all some things could be happily something else while they are the same thing- because the others are also some things out of the same thing claming to be something and they all keep blaming me of being something which is supposedly the opposite of all something out of the same thing when it is actually nothing.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 20, 2016, 06:52:43 AM
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I have been standing on this neutral position almost all my life. That's because I have never been indoctrinated growing up. About anything.

Meanwhile, there are billions of some things around who keep claiming that they are something out of the same thing versus other similar some things out of the same thing -so all some things could be happily something else while they are the same thing- because the others are also some things out of the same thing claming to be something and they all keep blaming me of being something which is supposedly the opposite of all something out of the same thing when it is actually nothing.

They have to say you "actually believe", because they understand deep down that it's absurd so they protect themselves by projecting that fallacious stance on you to even things out. When they do this just laugh at them.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 20, 2016, 11:07:11 AM
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When they do this just laugh at them.

Naaah. I am too unthreatening and harmless. When I do that it looks like a non-cute kitten trying to give an evil cackle rolling her eyes. And no, internet didn't invent that image yet. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: drunkenshoe on September 20, 2016, 11:08:09 AM
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Why be anything else?

Iyyyh... well adjust people^...sheesh.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 20, 2016, 01:42:34 PM
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Naaah. I am too unthreatening and harmless. When I do that it looks like a non-cute kitten trying to give an evil cackle rolling her eyes. And no, internet didn't invent that image yet. 
(http://rationalia.com/z/090811laugh.gif) + (http://rationalia.com/z/090811laugh01.gif) = (http://rationalia.com/z/thdogs.gif)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: TrueStory on September 20, 2016, 01:51:03 PM
When you grow up and no one mentions any type of religion it is super easy to be an atheist. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on September 20, 2016, 02:01:42 PM
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When you grow up and no one mentions any type of religion it is super easy to be an atheist. 
True story: I grew up in a home where church was something that ruined a good Sunday morning.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 12:09:41 AM
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Because I'm not retarded.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

You're answer presupposes that there is an objective standard of "reason" that you can use to weigh stupidity and intelligibility on. Can you please explain that objective standard?


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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: alexxmedeiros on October 14, 2016, 12:37:55 AM
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When you grow up and no one mentions any type of religion it is super easy to be an atheist.

Psalm 14:1 the fool says in his heart "there is no God."


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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on October 14, 2016, 01:39:07 AM
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Psalm 14:1 the fool says in his heart "there is no God."


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Hearts neither speak nor are capable of inner dialogue.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Poison Tree on October 14, 2016, 02:21:03 AM
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Psalm 14:1 the fool says in his heart "there is no God."
the wise man says it aloud
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sal1981 on October 14, 2016, 04:23:26 AM
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Psalm 14:1 the fool says in his heart "there is no God."
Matthew 5:22
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on October 14, 2016, 04:55:38 AM
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Psalm 14:1 the fool says in his heart "there is no God."

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Matthew 5:22

Ahh, the quoting of Bible verses, including the magical numbers that reference them; Now we're getting somewhere!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on October 14, 2016, 07:40:35 AM
♫The only thing that could ever reach me, was the son of a preacherman.♫
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 09:21:26 AM
Do you believe Mithra is a deity?  Why not?  He seems silly?  Well that's why I don't believe in any current deities...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on November 03, 2016, 02:19:35 AM
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♫The only thing that could ever reach me, was the son of a preacherman.♫

Great, now I have to youtube the whole song or risk getting it stuck in my head for WEEKS. Also, have to rewatch season 1 episode 1 of Sons of Anarchy. I hate this forum.....

https://youtu.be/dp4339EbVn8
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on November 03, 2016, 02:27:59 AM
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Great, now I have to youtube the whole song or risk getting it stuck in my head for WEEKS. Also, have to rewatch season 1 episode 1 of Sons of Anarchy. I hate this forum.....

https://youtu.be/dp4339EbVn8

Its not "thing" it is "one".  One is a person.  For what it is worth. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: JBCuzISaidSo on November 03, 2016, 03:15:54 AM
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Its not "thing" it is "one".  One is a person.  For what it is worth. 

https://youtu.be/WM8bTdBs-cw

??

Mind

BLOWN

Thank you!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: doorknob on November 03, 2016, 04:51:45 PM
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Psalm 14:1 the fool says in his heart "there is no God."


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It's a good thing I don't think anything in the bible is more than a fairy tale or I might get insulted.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on November 03, 2016, 05:03:26 PM
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It's a good thing I don't think anything in the bible is more than a fairy tale or I might get insulted.

There are few things in all of life funnier than a theist throwing a christian biblical citation at an atheist. 

Unless perhaps it is theists thinking that atheists care more about THEIR theism than any other nonsensical one. 

I like to ask them "Thought much about Thor lately?"
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 04, 2016, 06:16:26 PM
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It's a good thing I don't think anything in the bible is more than a fairy tale or I might get insulted.
One can't be insulted without one's consent.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on November 04, 2016, 06:18:25 PM
I hi
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I like to ask them "Thought much about Thor lately?"
I hit myself with a hammer - now I have a Thor thumb.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on November 06, 2016, 01:40:52 AM
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One can't be insulted without one's consent.

It doesn't take consent to be insulted.  Insulted IS!  That is like saying that rape requires "consent".
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 06:59:54 AM
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It doesn't take consent to be insulted.  Insulted IS!  That is like saying that rape requires "consent".

Don't be triggered! ;-)  If you have a thick enough skin, then you are someone's shoe leather.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: aitm on November 06, 2016, 07:44:56 AM
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I hiI hit myself with a hammer - now I have a Thor thumb.

HA!  Made me laugh.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on November 06, 2016, 07:51:10 AM
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HA!  Made me laugh.

That was a good one AITM!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Munch on January 26, 2017, 08:24:29 AM
I'm atheist because I slowly started to analysis to much of the fiction and fluff around belief and religion, and once certain things that didn't make sense broke away, the rest just came tumbling down. I use to believe in ghosts, souls, going somewhere when you die, spiritual healing and even wiccan magics, the idea you could mildly influence things with spells and shit. When rational sense came into play, none of that made sense, and so neither did any shit ever told in any religious text.

It was probably helped along when I realized how almost all religious groups had a problem with gay people, because the leaders of these cults wanted to have set standards for its followers and not think outside this group think. I suppose this is what got out out of following any group think and just follow my own way of thinking.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on January 26, 2017, 09:55:58 AM
I'm only an atheist because it's easier to spell than delusional believer in the invisible, silent thingie in the sky.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on January 26, 2017, 10:53:43 AM
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I'm atheist because I slowly started to analysis to much of the fiction and fluff around belief and religion, and once certain things that didn't make sense broke away, the rest just came tumbling down. I use to believe in ghosts, souls, going somewhere when you die, spiritual healing and even wiccan magics, the idea you could mildly influence things with spells and shit. When rational sense came into play, none of that made sense, and so neither did any shit ever told in any religious text.


When I was first formally introduced to mythology, I was impressed at how much of that resembled my own religion.  Think about it.  They each look the same, with hardly a nuance of difference between them, but one is considered to be the truth and the light, while the other is clearly understood to be bullshit.  That seemed like food for thought when I noticed it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on January 26, 2017, 04:03:13 PM
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It doesn't take consent to be insulted.  Insulted IS!  That is like saying that rape requires "consent".
I disagree - insults can only be taken, not given. If someone tries to insult you, it's your choice whether to take the insult or ignore it.


How does that have anything to do with rape!?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Munch on January 26, 2017, 07:38:51 PM
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When I was first formally introduced to mythology, I was impressed at how much of that resembled my own religion.  Think about it.  They each look the same, with hardly a nuance of difference between them, but one is considered to be the truth and the light, while the other is clearly understood to be bullshit.  That seemed like food for thought when I noticed it.

funny thing was, while I was going though my whole wiccen phase, I got heavily into greek mythology, and learned about the gods, demi gods and mythical heroes from those stories. I think I remember figuring then, well if zeus was this powerful, then you'd think he'd be a match for god, but obviously he couldn't be since he's not around or talked about anymore. So if a god like zeus wasn't, what made sense about any other religion?
The gears started turning pretty quick then.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on January 27, 2017, 03:32:07 PM
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When I was first formally introduced to mythology, I was impressed at how much of that resembled my own religion.  Think about it.  They each look the same, with hardly a nuance of difference between them, but one is considered to be the truth and the light, while the other is clearly understood to be bullshit.  That seemed like food for thought when I noticed it.
what is your concept for bs?

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on January 27, 2017, 04:20:06 PM
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what is your concept for bs?

Hearsay, old wives tales, and anything without compelling evidence.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on January 27, 2017, 04:35:56 PM
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Hearsay, old wives tales, and anything without compelling evidence.

Maybe this will help:

The Baloney Detection Kit: Carl Sagan’s Rules for Bullshit-Busting and Critical Thinking (https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on January 27, 2017, 04:59:12 PM
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Maybe this will help:

The Baloney Detection Kit: Carl Sagan’s Rules for Bullshit-Busting and Critical Thinking (https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/)

Years back, that was the first formalized list of logical fallacies I had seen.  Others are more complete, but I'll never forget the Baloney Detection Kit, because the name is so comical and un-Sagan sounding, at least on the surface, but at times, I think I've picked up on that side of Carl Sagan's sense of humor.  It's memorable because we have one of the world's foremost cosmologists using the word baloney for that which cannot withstand serious scrutiny.  You would think he would get all puffed up and intellectual, but no.  Baloney was simply good enough for his compilation of things that describe compromised thinking.

Vulgar cur that I am, I use the word "bullshit," but I don't pretend to have Sagan's class.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on January 27, 2017, 05:05:11 PM
I think it's been found recently that people who cuss are more intelligent and have better vocabularies than those who don't. Gotta go for now, I'll find a link when I get back.


[edit]
OK, I'm back, and here's a linky:

Why it’s a good sign if you curse a lot
 
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/22/why-its-a-good-sign-if-you-curse-a-lot/?utm_term=.55d339f87599)
[/edit]
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on January 27, 2017, 06:37:43 PM
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Why it’s a good sign if you curse a lot
 
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/22/why-its-a-good-sign-if-you-curse-a-lot/?utm_term=.55d339f87599)
[/edit]

The 8 commenters on the article sound mildly disgusted by the research.  But they don't know nothin', cause none of them cursed a fuckin' bit.  Dumb shits.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on January 27, 2017, 07:53:26 PM
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Hearsay, old wives tales, and anything without compelling evidence.
would it be proper to summarize to lies or misinformation?

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on January 27, 2017, 08:00:55 PM
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would it be proper to summarize to lies or misinformation?

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Compelling information happens with a pacifist Hillary supporter or pacifist Trump supporter has a gun to your noggin.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on January 28, 2017, 05:26:51 PM
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Compelling information happens with a pacifist Hillary supporter or pacifist Trump supporter has a gun to your noggin.
I dont know what this has to do with my question.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on January 28, 2017, 05:31:23 PM
Welcome to the club...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on January 28, 2017, 09:12:58 PM
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Welcome to the club...

Compelling evidence ... an appeal to the emotions and an un-logical mind.  No one here is a logician, or even a very good empiricist.  Just advocates for this or that.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: OldFaithful on January 29, 2017, 05:05:20 PM
Better ask, why define yourself as an atheist? I for one feel we should all take the wheel and learn something from it!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on January 30, 2017, 08:24:52 AM
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Better ask, why define yourself as an atheist? I for one feel we should all take the wheel and learn something from it!
I really don't. If I identify as anything, it's as a skeptic.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: MooHamHead on January 30, 2017, 09:32:29 PM
I define myself as a man of reason. I oppose all fairy tales from jesus to anthropogenic global warming. Without reason and logic we are doomed to be destroyed by savages such as Islam.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on January 31, 2017, 07:02:21 PM
Oh, great, a Republican...

We'll see how you feel after Chump's finished destroying America and a huge chunk of the rest of the world.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on March 05, 2017, 07:07:06 AM
Hello again after a long time fellow atheists...

First of all, atheistm is the default feature of natural human thinking... A religious person learns their religion from their family or from who grows them up... If nobody teachs them, they would be atheist naturally... We had already been atheists before we learnt it... But when it comes to the creation of the God in the world of human thinking, it should be mentioned about making the world meaningful...

That's it for now...

Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 05, 2017, 08:05:04 AM
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Hello again after a long time fellow atheists...

First of all, atheistm is the default feature of natural human thinking... A religious person learns their religion from their family or from who grows them up... If nobody teachs them, they would be atheist naturally... We had already been atheists before we learnt it... But when it comes to the creation of the God in the world of human thinking, it should be mentioned about making the world meaningful...

That's it for now...

Yeah, pretty standard reasoning among atheists...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 12:43:50 PM
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Hello again after a long time fellow atheists...

First of all, atheistm is the default feature of natural human thinking... A religious person learns their religion from their family or from who grows them up... If nobody teachs them, they would be atheist naturally... We had already been atheists before we learnt it... But when it comes to the creation of the God in the world of human thinking, it should be mentioned about making the world meaningful...

That's it for now...
according to some on this thread, athiesm refers to both ideas of no god exist to not knowing if god exist. Is that how you use it?

what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 05, 2017, 02:17:15 PM
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according to some on this thread, athiesm refers to both ideas of no god exist to not knowing if god exist. Is that how you use it?

what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?

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What about it??
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 05:32:50 PM
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What about it??
This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on March 05, 2017, 06:21:54 PM
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This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.
Curiosity has led many to making profound discoveries about the natural world that have nothing to do with religion, and in many cases have vastly reduced the area in which any putative god might act freely.  You can't infer anything from curiosity beyond the idea that curiosity provided a survival advantage at some point in our past.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 05, 2017, 08:18:52 PM
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This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.

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And????
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: aitm on March 05, 2017, 09:09:06 PM
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what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?


This is an interesting question, when presented to a human 3500 years ago. First, there was no concept of a "universe", at least not as we could conceive it. Everything we knew and could possibly comprehend ended at the clouds. We could not understand that the limit of the cloud was the beginning of a universe so vast that the greatest of human minds would spend decades to try to comprehend it . This is why we thought....2000 years ago that since water fell from the sky that the sky was actually.....water...as the babble proclaims.

And "spirit"...why long before we invented "gods" we thought everything had a spirit, a bond, a more than casual interconnection to everything in life. As such we painted walls in caves depicting our interaction with our fellow animals 33,000 years before we even invented a god. We carved totems to animals 8,000 years before we first murmured the concept that a giant sky wizard would and could stand aside the world and play with the lives of those who came to kill us....or those we would go to kill...in his name.

And now...after time has watched us flail about and stumble, and sit and think...we reason. We start to understand that what we thought we understood...cannot be understood...because it cannot be. That which is left..as Doyle would write...is the truth.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 10:28:25 PM


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This is an interesting question, when presented to a human 3500 years ago. First, there was no concept of a "universe", at least not as we could conceive it. Everything we knew and could possibly comprehend ended at the clouds. We could not understand that the limit of the cloud was the beginning of a universe so vast that the greatest of human minds would spend decades to try to comprehend it . This is why we thought....2000 years ago that since water fell from the sky that the sky was actually.....water...as the babble proclaims.

And "spirit"...why long before we invented "gods" we thought everything had a spirit, a bond, a more than casual interconnection to everything in life. As such we painted walls in caves depicting our interaction with our fellow animals 33,000 years before we even invented a god. We carved totems to animals 8,000 years before we first murmured the concept that a giant sky wizard would and could stand aside the world and play with the lives of those who came to kill us....or those we would go to kill...in his name.

And now...after time has watched us flail about and stumble, and sit and think...we reason. We start to understand that what we thought we understood...cannot be understood...because it cannot be. That which is left..as Doyle would write...is the truth.

1. not a universe as we know it today. but a reality non the less.
I like point of view presented. this is bad communication on my part as I think of reality including what we would say is a universe scientifically explained. in that physical sense, yes, the clouds perhaps the limit until maybe antiquity greece? just a playful guess.

2. interesting concept that if we can not understand something, it does not exist. or can not be. Despite there being numerous theories, concepts, and ideas that not every human understands. That there are still information readily available though at the tip or beyond the tip of human understanding. some things we will come to know as we have come to know but various thinkers are open to saying some "facts" we may never know.

3. Fine gander at question. years ago we thought of spirits for everythin to explain a connection everything has. today we recognize a connection that everything has which can develop a philisophical brotherhood amongst men. but some things are ignored.

Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 05, 2017, 10:30:06 PM
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Curiosity has led many to making profound discoveries about the natural world that have nothing to do with religion, and in many cases have vastly reduced the area in which any putative god might act freely.  You can't infer anything from curiosity beyond the idea that curiosity provided a survival advantage at some point in our past.
Or a desire to better understand ourself and reality develops a greater philisophical experience?

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on March 05, 2017, 11:46:15 PM
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Or a desire to better understand ourself and reality develops a greater philisophical experience?
Philosophy generally doesn't move societies, however -- certainly not in the way religion does almost effortlessly.  For example, religionists like to take credit for ending slavery in America by bringing about a so-called 'great moral awakening' that made it no longer tenable, but at least as many christians supported slavery on biblical grounds as opposed it.  What ended it wasn't religion (or philosophy) spearheading a great wave of enlightenment, but economics and a long and bloody war.

And fundamentally, a philosophical experience is a personal one, much like a religious experience.  Philosophy has at least the benefit of not necessarily being based on faith, though.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 06, 2017, 11:27:20 AM
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This curiosity has been a great drive to understanding our own existence and have lead many to a religious life.
Yeah, so?  Curiosity also killed the cat.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 06, 2017, 11:39:29 AM
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Yeah, so?  Curiosity also killed the cat.
Yes. that dog was rather too curious.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 06, 2017, 11:47:23 AM
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Philosophy generally doesn't move societies, however -- certainly not in the way religion does almost effortlessly.  For example, religionists like to take credit for ending slavery in America by bringing about a so-called 'great moral awakening' that made it no longer tenable, but at least as many christians supported slavery on biblical grounds as opposed it.  What ended it wasn't religion (or philosophy) spearheading a great wave of enlightenment, but economics and a long and bloody war.

And fundamentally, a philosophical experience is a personal one, much like a religious experience.  Philosophy has at least the benefit of not necessarily being based on faith, though.

1. You sound like you speak about the americas slavery? Spain and Portugal stopped their part of slavery (though some may have continued despite) due to religious intervention.

Economics? war in US was because of economics but e.c.o. didnt halter slavery. souths economy relied on it. Thats how they climbed and stayed as influencial as they were.

But the awakening is a realisation and does not need to be with an opposite religion or group to be defined as such

2. Philosophy doesnt need to be religious but it does or can help develop religious thought and following.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 06, 2017, 12:46:48 PM
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1. You sound like you speak about the americas slavery? Spain and Portugal stopped their part of slavery (though some may have continued despite) due to religious intervention.

Economics? war in US was because of economics but e.c.o. didnt halter slavery. souths economy relied on it. Thats how they climbed and stayed as influencial as they were.

But the awakening is a realisation and does not need to be with an opposite religion or group to be defined as such

2. Philosophy doesnt need to be religious but it does or can help develop religious thought and following.

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We are very Anglophone centric here.  See the movie, The Mission ... the Catholic Church was more progressive to the Natives than the Crown.

Materialists don't believe in "a ghost in the machine".  We are just machines, like a clock, only spontaneously assembled, unlike a clock.  Yes, some non-theists are agnostic, some are atheist, and some are anti-theist.  People who tout the Enlightenment, think things improved because of powdered wigs and dancing the minuette.  Very pre-French Revolution, very Euro-centric.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 07, 2017, 07:09:39 PM
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what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?
Well, we can see that there's a universe, but we can't see that there is any "spirit."

"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 07, 2017, 11:44:56 PM


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We are very Anglophone centric here.  See the movie, The Mission ... the Catholic Church was more progressive to the Natives than the Crown.

Materialists don't believe in "a ghost in the machine".  We are just machines, like a clock, only spontaneously assembled, unlike a clock.  Yes, some non-theists are agnostic, some are atheist, and some are anti-theist.  People who tout the Enlightenment, think things improved because of powdered wigs and dancing the minuette.  Very pre-French Revolution, very Euro-centric.

materialists? Last I check this is just a random person whose center is in the things they own and could be anyone under diverse beliefs.

How are they centered under thinking there is not a ghost in the shell?

and by that you refer to a soul?

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: randomvim on March 07, 2017, 11:50:09 PM


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Well, we can see that there's a universe, but we can't see that there is any "spirit."

"It is not God that is worshipped but the group or authority that claims to speak in His name. Sin becomes disobedience to authority not violation of integrity."
Radhakrishnan, Sir Sarvepalli

1. How is the group or a group worshipped instead of?

2. Spirit can be summarized by an individual's character as well as what is seen as stregnths and weaknesses. An inner self. Understanding self. This I see in diverse cultures and heritage around globe.

Some terms may have changed and become more secular, but these aspects are still searched for.

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Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on March 08, 2017, 12:18:12 AM
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1. You sound like you speak about the americas slavery? Spain and Portugal stopped their part of slavery (though some may have continued despite) due to religious intervention.
Yes, I explicitly said that I was talking about slavery in America.

However, the notion that religion stopped slavery in Spain and Portugal is ludicrous on the face of it.  In Spain, the enslavement of non-Catholics was essentially ordered by Pope Nicholas V (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Diversas), and  subsequent popes re-affirmed the 'just' enslavement of non-Christians by both Spain and Portugal.

You're better served looking to the Enlightenment than to the various churches for the roots of abolitionism.

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Economics? war in US was because of economics but e.c.o. didnt halter slavery. souths economy relied on it. Thats how they climbed and stayed as influencial as they were.
Absolutely economics.  The coming of the Industrial Age made slavery no longer necessary economically, so it was easier to oppose it "morally".

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2. Philosophy doesnt need to be religious but it does or can help develop religious thought and following.
Your point?  Just because philosophy can be used to try to underpin a religious opinion doesn't validate the religious opinion.  The vital thing is that no amount of philosophy can prove a religious position -- although logic and reason go a long way toward disproving it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 08, 2017, 01:29:35 AM
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what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?
Well, clearly there is a predilection for magical thinking, because here we are, in a world saturated with it.

But SoldierofFortune is broadly correct in that theistic, organized religion as we know it today wouldn't exist were it not passed on from generation to generation - being a believer in Christianity/Islam/Judaism/etc is not the default human state.

Before theism in general and organized forms of theism in particular, people likely had animistic beliefs if they held any religious beliefs at all.

It is very easy to imagine a violent thunderstorm as the sky being angry or sky spirits fighting each other.  If you further anthropomorphize these spirits, you could come up with a polytheistic pantheon of gods - each personifying and holding domain over some aspect of nature, like the sea (Poseidon) or lightning (Zeus).  In this pantheon, the chief god may become more and more dominant until - viola, something akin to monotheism (Aten worship) or a dualistic scheme with a good god fighting an evil god (Zoroastrianism).  From there, it's a hop, skip, and a jump to Abrahamic monotheism and the world we know today.

Sorry, but religion is not some deep insight into the universe.  It's just runaway magical thinking that, in the process of being spread generation to generation, has adapted to tickle people's ventral pallidum and to seem profound and noble to get passed along that much more earnestly.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 08, 2017, 08:00:34 AM
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according to some on this thread, athiesm refers to both ideas of no god exist to not knowing if god exist. Is that how you use it?

what about natural human curiosity about the universe and spirit?

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"Atheism" is pretty much "forget it, no deity".  The uncertainty idea is more "agnostic", as I understand it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 08, 2017, 11:28:36 AM
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"Atheism" is pretty much "forget it, no deity".  The uncertainty idea is more "agnostic", as I understand it.
Agnosticism is colloquially used to indicate uncertainty regarding the existence of god or a "fence-sitting" position between atheism and theism.

But formally, agnosticism is a position regarding knowledge.  Who actually knows for a fact that a god exists or doesn't exist and how could they possibly know that?  Agnosticism is a position that humans lack the knowledge to determine whether or not god exists.  Taken further, strong agnosticism is the position that such a thing is inherently impossible to know (how could you go about verifying the claim that a god exists?  Or tell the difference between a genuine god and an imposter?)

I really wish the colloquial version and the formal versions of agnosticism had different names, because one gets confused for the other on a regular basis.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: fencerider on March 11, 2017, 12:21:48 PM
back to the OP....

wasnt ever trained in the gods of any religion except the Christian god. When I had to read about Zeus and Athena in high school I automatically assumed it was a fairy-tale. I had no idea that people actually believed Zeus was real. After that the more time I read the Bible the same two questions kept popping up. Why was anything Paul wrote in the Bible? the guy admits up front that he wasn't there....
The other question is about Jesus. These twelve guys were hangin out with someone that is supposed to be a son of a god and nobody was trying to write down everything he said or did? Why not? There are some dead guys in Egypt that have stupid accounting stuff written down that we can read just because they were a king. I was getting the impression that there was somethin screwy about the whole setup of the Bible. I think I started asking questions way back in junior high.

the short story is when you try to be objective questions about the way the Bible was created and what it says start coming up. Where's the proof that it is legitimate? aint no proof of a Christian god layin around.


maybe ya'll getting bored with me mentioning a previous post but I'm gonna bring it up again. Learned a lot just from the error section comparing Samuels and Chronicles

www.kyroot.com 1513 Reasons why Christianity is false
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Ro3bert on March 11, 2017, 07:13:43 PM
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When I was first formally introduced to mythology, I was impressed at how much of that resembled my own religion.  Think about it.  They each look the same, with hardly a nuance of difference between them, but one is considered to be the truth and the light, while the other is clearly understood to be bullshit.  That seemed like food for thought when I noticed it.

As far as I am concerned the bible is as much myth as Greek, Roman, Norse or Egyptian myth with the caveat that most myths have at least some historical bits and pieces thrown in to help make them look real.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sorginak on March 11, 2017, 07:21:08 PM
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Agnosticism is colloquially used to indicate uncertainty regarding the existence of god or a "fence-sitting" position between atheism and theism.

But formally, agnosticism is a position regarding knowledge.  Who actually knows for a fact that a god exists or doesn't exist and how could they possibly know that?  Agnosticism is a position that humans lack the knowledge to determine whether or not god exists.  Taken further, strong agnosticism is the position that such a thing is inherently impossible to know (how could you go about verifying the claim that a god exists?  Or tell the difference between a genuine god and an imposter?)

I really wish the colloquial version and the formal versions of agnosticism had different names, because one gets confused for the other on a regular basis.

I used to be agnostic.

Robert Green Ingersoll is a great man.

Agnosticism is fence sitting.  It is not about obtaining knowledge.

After thousands of years of mythology, would there not be some sort of evidence for the supernatural?  Considering there is no evidence, it is more logical to assume there is nothing supernatural. 

Supernaturalism is nothing than mere imaginative fancy.

Reason and logic informs us after thousands of years of faith based ignorance that religious faith is useless. 

Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Ro3bert on March 11, 2017, 07:23:06 PM
I have moved on from atheism to apatheism. The whole argument is impossible. I neither believe nor disbelieve and don't care either way.

From Wikipedia: "An apatheist is someone who is not interested in accepting or rejecting any claims that gods exist or do not exist. An apatheist may thus decide to live as if there are no gods. The existence of god(s) is not rejected, but may be designated irrelevant."

That is my position especially the "irrelevant" part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sorginak on March 11, 2017, 07:24:22 PM
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I have moved on from atheism to apatheism. The whole argument is impossible. I neither believe nor disbelieve and don't care either way.

From Wikipedia: "An apatheist is someone who is not interested in accepting or rejecting any claims that gods exist or do not exist. An apatheist may thus decide to live as if there are no gods. The existence of god(s) is not rejected, but may be designated irrelevant."

That is my position especially the "irrelevant" part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism)

So you're an agnostic. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 11, 2017, 11:38:59 PM
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So you're an agnostic.

He is an agnostic who doesn't care.  Are there agnostics who do care?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 12, 2017, 07:52:01 AM
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He is an agnostic who doesn't care.  Are there agnostics who do care?
Absolutely. I was an agnostic, during the years of my religious quest.  I cared deeply about answering the question of God's existence.  I could think of no greater question that needed an answer at the time.  My position on agnosticism has never changed.  I intuitively knew the big question could not be answered when I started, and I am at the same place today.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 12, 2017, 08:17:36 AM
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follow up questions may follow.
I've never been anything else. Not programmed to buy into my parents' religion as they had none. The idea of some big sky daddy who can create a Universe but thinks I'm the center of it just caused me to giggle when I was ten years old.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 12, 2017, 08:19:32 AM
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Agnosticism is fence sitting. 
There is no fence to sit on in agnosticism, and some agnostics defend their position fiercely.  It's the only conclusion one can arrive at using logic.  Of course if you prefer special logic, say courtroom logic, you might decide there is or isn't a god.  But you would have done so without precise evidence.

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It is not about obtaining knowledge.
That's because there is no justification for knowledge without evidence.  If you see that as fence sitting, you should divest your interest in colloquial definitions, and consider what the guy that coined and defined the word meant it to mean:

Quote
Agnosticism is of the essence of science, whether ancient or modern. It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe. Consequently, agnosticism puts aside not only the greater part of popular theology, but also the greater part of anti-theology. On the whole, the "bosh" of heterodoxy is more offensive to me than that of orthodoxy, because heterodoxy professes to be guided by reason and science, and orthodoxy does not.[12]

— Thomas Henry Huxley

Quote
Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.[14][15][16]

— Thomas Henry Huxley

From:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 12, 2017, 08:28:42 AM
But religion is not about science.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 12, 2017, 09:33:35 AM
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But religion is not about science.
Obviously, but neither is it's opposite (that no god exists).

Agnosticism is a place that disregards all forms of informal logic, in favor of not allowing "the intellect to pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable."

According to agnosticism, both knowing of God's existence (theism) and knowing of his non-existence (anti-theism) are opposing perceptions that both live together in the pond of conjecture, a place where knowledge is presumed without demonstrable certainty.  Agnosticism is not sitting on the fence; It's a recognition of the limits of what can be known.

Agnosticism in no way preempts the belief that "no god exists."  It just recognizes the difference between belief and actual knowledge.  Describing agnosticism as "fence riding" sounds suspiciously like someone needing another to make a commitment and to take sides ("if you are not for us, you are against us.  Please, come jump off the fence and bathe in the waters of blissful conjecture").  It attempts to cajole the agnostic to give up reason and to join a movement which has no logical platform.  Unfortunately, this is usually a waste of time, because the agnostic may have been in the movement for much longer than the recent joiners, who emotionally rejoice, "There is no God," without demonstrable evidence.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 12, 2017, 10:23:26 AM
Not going to argue with a fanboi.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 12, 2017, 10:59:29 AM
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Absolutely. I was an agnostic, during the years of my religious quest.  I cared deeply about answering the question of God's existence.  I could think of no greater question that needed an answer at the time.  My position on agnosticism has never changed.  I intuitively knew the big question could not be answered when I started, and I am at the same place today.
Interesting.  I have been your position for most of my life.  I questioned religion from the beginning.  The answer I hit upon was that there was no answer--at least not one that anybody could prove.  I figured that a negative such as 'there is no god' really could not be proven.  So, I was agnostic.  Maybe even a militant one in that I had such disdain for organized religion in general, but still felt that it was unproven either way. 

Now I have come to the conclusion that there is not god.  And the total and complete lack of proof of the existence of Jesus, or the Christian god, leaves me no choice but to conclude there is not god.  I understand the default human setting is there is no god--or Easter Bunny--or Santa--or Invisible Pink Unicorn;  one cannot make an assertion that any god exists without some actual proof.  So far nobody in the history of humankind has produced any proof whatsoever.  There simply is no god(s).   
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 12, 2017, 12:19:39 PM
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Now I have come to the conclusion that there is not god. 
I'm much the same way, I've come to the same conclusion, but not from evidence.  It's more like the lack of evidence.  However, the old adage says, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," and I get that, but it can't be written off so easily.  God could be hiding, as indeed the lack of evidence would suggest, but maybe that's all that it is.  He is simply hiding, and leaving no evidence or footprints behind (much like a unicorn).  In truth, that was always part of the problem for me.  A perfect being could hide perfectly, so why should I expect to find evidence if he didn't want to be found?

But there is a rub.  Supposedly, he wants to be worshiped and loved.  It would make no sense to hide.  He might have reasons for this.  While it isn't illogical for him to hide, it's kind of nuts, actually quite nuts, like "way out there" nuts.  At least for the Christian god, so I did dabble in entertaining other gods, gods of my own creation that operated totally illogically, but there were too many to consider, and the other more fashionable gods of the current millennium are just as equally nuts.  So while I can't prove anything, I'm quite sure there is no god, and I'd bet my soul (if I even have one) on that.

And what if I'm wrong?  Well, the universe works in such a way that it is exactly the kind of universe I would expect without a god.  Therefore, a god, if he did exist, is too inconsequential to matter, and I can see no evidence that he rewards or punishes living things depending on whether they guessed right about his existence or not.

So yeah, I believe there is no god, but ask me for proof?  Nope, can't do it.  However, I can offer evidence, but it's only evidence much like a lawyer would offer in court.  It doesn't prove anything, but it may get you to render an opinion on the matter, and you could use the evidence to justify your opinion, but it's not proof.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 12, 2017, 01:11:48 PM
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I'm much the same way, I've come to the same conclusion, but not from evidence.  It's more like the lack of evidence.  However, the old adage says, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," and I get that, but it can't be written off so easily.  God could be hiding, as indeed the lack of evidence would suggest, but maybe that's all that it is.  He is simply hiding, and leaving no evidence or footprints behind (much like a unicorn).  In truth, that was always part of the problem for me.  A perfect being could hide perfectly, so why should I expect to find evidence if he didn't want to be found?

But there is a rub.  Supposedly, he wants to be worshiped and loved.  It would make no sense to hide.  He might have reasons for this.  While it isn't illogical for him to hide, it's kind of nuts, actually quite nuts, like "way out there" nuts.  At least for the Christian god, so I did dabble in entertaining other gods, gods of my own creation that operated totally illogically, but there were too many to consider, and the other more fashionable gods of the current millennium are just as equally nuts.  So while I can't prove anything, I'm quite sure there is no god, and I'd bet my soul (if I even have one) on that.

And what if I'm wrong?  Well, the universe works in such a way that it is exactly the kind of universe I would expect without a god.  Therefore, a god, if he did exist, is too inconsequential to matter, and I can see no evidence that he rewards or punishes living things depending on whether they guessed right about his existence or not.

So yeah, I believe there is no god, but ask me for proof?  Nope, can't do it.  However, I can offer evidence, but it's only evidence much like a lawyer would offer in court.  It doesn't prove anything, but it may get you to render an opinion on the matter, and you could use the evidence to justify your opinion, but it's not proof.
100% agree.  Well, almost 100%.  I guess I go one more step in the no-god direction.  It seems to me that lack of evidence is evidence when it is in the extreme.  Jesus is an example.  There is a total lack of  citations for him by 1st. cent. writers and historians.  Its not like only a couple mention him, or one--it is none, zippo, nadda, not a one!  That is not strange, it is beyond comprehension.  There is more 'evidence' for bigfoot/yeti then there is for Jesus.  So, when the lack of evidence is so loud, I regard it as evidence that at least borders on proof.  The same for god, only more so.  A god by any definition that wants to be worshiped cannot simply disappear or never appear and be factual.  This is the stuff of myth and fiction.  Again, in this instance, the total lack of evidence is at the very least strong evidence if not proof of the non-existence of god(s).  I regard nonbelief as the default thinking of humankind.  Believers bear the responsibility of proving that default wrong.  Jesus was not and god never was. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 12, 2017, 02:41:54 PM
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100% agree.  Well, almost 100%.  I guess I go one more step in the no-god direction.  It seems to me that lack of evidence is evidence when it is in the extreme.  Jesus is an example.  There is a total lack of  citations for him by 1st. cent. writers and historians.  Its not like only a couple mention him, or one--it is none, zippo, nadda, not a one!  That is not strange, it is beyond comprehension.  There is more 'evidence' for bigfoot/yeti then there is for Jesus.  So, when the lack of evidence is so loud, I regard it as evidence that at least borders on proof.  The same for god, only more so.  A god by any definition that wants to be worshiped cannot simply disappear or never appear and be factual.  This is the stuff of myth and fiction.  Again, in this instance, the total lack of evidence is at the very least strong evidence if not proof of the non-existence of god(s).  I regard nonbelief as the default thinking of humankind.  Believers bear the responsibility of proving that default wrong.  Jesus was not and god never was. 
I guess it doesn't meet my slam dunk requirements of proof as demanded in the application of formal logic.  This doesn't mean lack of evidence is not a serious issue in my belief that no god exists.  It obviously is, and given that it is all we have to go on, I believe I'm closer to your position than you think.  It's just that given the strange caveats Christians use to apologize for God, including some weird caveats such as Him being incomprehensible, despite the fact that they simultaneously claim to have an extraordinary comprehension of his ways, which is a paradox in itself, I'm unable to create a simple syllogism that proves his absence, just as they cannot create a syllogism that proves his presence.

They will deny their logic is unassailable of course, but I can't do anything about their vacuous self confidence.  I'm left to my own devices, which is considering the evidence (or lack thereof), and then moving on to a "common sense" conclusion.  Common sense being the same fallacy they use, while bolstering that with claiming knowledge of something or other, which they claim is logical.  Using logic, I can only claim no knowledge, which is the essence of agnosticism.  This is not the same as my belief that there is no god, which makes me both agnostic, and depending on how one defines it, possibly a strong atheist, but that's more like a semantic quibble that I'm not heavily invested in.

Edit:  And yes, I agree that lack of evidence is extreme, and I weigh that heavily in my belief, which is separate from my knowledge.  My knowledge is only that the lack of evidence is extreme.  I don't take my knowledge any further than that, but it counts big time in my belief.



Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Solomon Zorn on March 12, 2017, 03:09:23 PM
There is no proof that God does not exist? Irrelevant. I have no obligation to seek any. There are in fact an infinitude of things that do not exist, and I could spend my life trying to prove they do not exist, but it would be futile. That doesn't make me agnostic about leprechauns. It just means, I'm not the one who has to waste my time researching claims, which offer no basis in evidence. My only obligation, is to examine what is offered as evidence, by someone making a claim. The confusion is created, by specially designed definitions of God, which are deliberately formulated to be unfalsifiable. It makes theists think their claims don't require evidence, and they can shift the burden to someone else, of proving them false. I try not to fall for it.

I would never refer to myself as "agnostic." The colloquial use of "agnostic," indicates you are undecided, and for a lot of Christians, that sounds like a perfect opportunity to "witness" to you, about their beliefs, to try and help you decide.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 12, 2017, 04:23:39 PM
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There is no proof that God does not exist? Irrelevant. I have no obligation to seek any.
I'm at that point now.  I wasn't years ago when societal pressures were strong enough (on me) to begin a quest.  After years of futility, I feel no obligation to seek further.  Was I making a mountain out of a mole hill?  In retrospect, yes.  It didn't seem that way at the time.  I could have saved a lot of time that would have been better devoted to other ways of improving my life, and now I realize I should have done that.  But we learn at different speeds, often dictated by training early on.

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I would never refer to myself as "agnostic." The colloquial use of "agnostic," indicates you are undecided, and for a lot of Christians, that sounds like a perfect opportunity to "witness" to you, about their beliefs, to try and help you decide.
I refuse to accept the colloquial definition.  I prefer the original meaning as it was intended.  The colloquial meaning fails to separate belief from knowledge and sometimes precipitates an irrelevant debate.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 12, 2017, 07:38:19 PM
Ah ... but that is how culture operates.  It is a shared bull shit delusion.  A nation doesn't exist, there are no lines on the ground that correspond to the lines on a map.  Please apply your skepticism to other cultural artifacts, not just religion.  Please disregard what side of the road they drive on, in your area.  Disregard your taxes ... the state is a shared delusion among idiots, just like religion.  Go full David Hume, and disbelieve that you are even Scottish ;-)  Part of what drove the Enlightenment, and brought us the French Revolution, was cultural nihilism.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 12, 2017, 08:23:39 PM
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I'm at that point now.  I wasn't years ago when societal pressures were strong enough (on me) to begin a quest.  After years of futility, I feel no obligation to seek further.  Was I making a mountain out of a mole hill?  In retrospect, yes.  It didn't seem that way at the time.  I could have saved a lot of time that would have been better devoted to other ways of improving my life, and now I realize I should have done that.  But we learn at different speeds, often dictated by training early on.

I have learned that bemoaning all that wasted time and energy, you should accept it for what it was--necessary for your own peace of mind.  If you had not tackled the question in your own way, you may well be wondering now if you'd missed something.  Now it is settled.  That's how I view the periods of searching in my life. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 13, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
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I have learned that bemoaning all that wasted time and energy, you should accept it for what it was--necessary for your own peace of mind.  If you had not tackled the question in your own way, you may well be wondering now if you'd missed something.  Now it is settled.  That's how I view the periods of searching in my life. 
You're right, and wouldn't describe it as regret.  Sure my energies could have been directed elsewhere, or wasted, or whatever.  But the important thing, as you point out, is that the matter was settled, with the result being peace of mind today.  Can't disregard that.  It's not a small thing.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 13, 2017, 08:54:38 AM
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You're right, and wouldn't describe it as regret.  Sure my energies could have been directed elsewhere, or wasted, or whatever.  But the important thing, as you point out, is that the matter was settled, with the result being peace of mind today.  Can't disregard that.  It's not a small thing.
I like the way you think.  Don't often take the time to say so--just hit the 'like' button--but it seems we say and think much the same thing usually.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 13, 2017, 11:30:01 AM
I am an atheist because--no God.  I was born that way.  Everyone is an atheist, whether they know it or not, because--no God.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 13, 2017, 12:02:23 PM
Actually I lied, I'm not an atheist. I'm something far more terrifying: a human with critical thinking skills.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on March 13, 2017, 12:26:00 PM
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Actually I lied, I'm not an atheist. I'm something far more terrifying: a human with critical thinking skills.

KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 13, 2017, 01:22:37 PM
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Actually I lied, I'm not an atheist. I'm something far more terrifying: a human with critical thinking skills.
Please elaborate.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: fencerider on March 14, 2017, 01:06:02 AM
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So far nobody in the history of humankind has produced any proof whatsoever.
en contraire: There has been a lot of proof produced. No production, no storyline and then no cash flow. Bennie Hinn is producing evidence of god every week with his fake healing. TBN got a massive production of proof goin on. To the tune of a few nice house and airplanes later
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 01:22:21 AM
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en contraire: There has been a lot of proof produced. No production, no storyline and then no cash flow. Bennie Hinn is producing evidence of god every week with his fake healing. TBN got a massive production of proof goin on. To the tune of a few nice house and airplanes later
And don't forget Sai Baba's infamous powder poof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtxYjMZTnU

Kid's love that shit.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 01:33:57 AM
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And don't forget Sai Baba's infamous powder poof:

Kid's love that shit.

Psychosomatic ... and stage magic too.  But it is cultural specific.  Americans are impressed by science bull shit mostly.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 01:42:23 AM
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Psychosomatic ... and stage magic too.  But it is cultural specific.  Americans are impressed by science bull shit mostly.
Muricans are impressed by hot dog eatin' contests, k?  There's no bar set low enough for 'em.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 01:51:56 AM
Well technically none of us can be sure of unproved claims.  So agnostic, meaning "I don't know anything about the subject" really doesn't mean much.  You can't prove there isn't a deity any more than you can't prove there aren't 200" glowing unicorns walking around.  They might just not be where you are looking.  There might by Flying Spaghetti Monsters too.

So I pretty much ignore agnostics...

Even as an atheist, I can't say there isn't some deity.  Maybe one created the universe and left it to go on to other projects.  Unprovable.

What I CAN say is that there is no evidence of any deity and I will act on that until I see some proof.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 01:53:14 AM
The atheists had a better uniform.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 01:57:57 AM
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The atheists had a better uniform.

Where do I get the uniform?  I just have a hat.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:01:04 AM
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Where do I get the uniform?  I just have a hat.
You have to make a sacrifice to Satan (the true god of all atheists) and tell him your measurements. Did you even get the manual?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 02:06:46 AM
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You have to make a sacrifice to Satan (the true god of all atheists) and tell him your measurements. Did you even get the manual?

I get so tired of fools equating atheist to satanism.  Satanism is just another damnfool theism.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on March 14, 2017, 02:12:33 AM
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Please elaborate.
It's a fancy way of saying, "I WILL NOT BE LABELED!"
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: The Skeletal Atheist on March 14, 2017, 02:13:06 AM
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I get so tired of fools equating atheist to satanism.  Satanism is just another damnfool theism.
1: the people who equate the two are essentially hopeless. They made up their mind, laugh at them.
2: you gotta see the fun in the absurdity of it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 02:25:45 AM
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Well technically none of us can be sure of unproved claims.  So agnostic, meaning "I don't know anything about the subject" really doesn't mean much.  You can't prove there isn't a deity any more than you can't prove there aren't 200" glowing unicorns walking around.  They might just not be where you are looking.  There might by Flying Spaghetti Monsters too.

So I pretty much ignore agnostics...

Even as an atheist, I can't say there isn't some deity.  Maybe one created the universe and left it to go on to other projects.  Unprovable.

What I CAN say is that there is no evidence of any deity and I will act on that until I see some proof.
Unfalsifiable claims are bull pucky.  Scientists ignore that shit--non-scientists should too.  And I or anyone can present mountains of random circumstantial evidence enough to convict the alleged God's existence.  Pediatric cancer wards, DUI murders of innocents, wars, tsunamis, etc etc.  But really, God cannot exist if evolution exists(which it does):  you can't get there from here.  The deist God also cannot exist, it's illogical as to omniscience, omnipresence and all that alleged crapola.

It's humankind and the rest of the natural world and universe--that's it, that's more than enough to deal with.  Space?  There's nothin out there but fire and brimstone and darkness, forever.

Seriously, it's a YOOGE relief to realize this, and your logical brain works much better as a result of not being clogged up with all that illogical, fantastical, religious garbledeegook.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 02:30:34 AM
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It's a fancy way of saying, "I WILL NOT BE LABELED!"
Oh, ok.  Well, I find it fun and emboldening and fascinating to proclaim loud and clear to believers that I am an atheist and stand back and see WTF happens.  LOL, the fireworks are amazing!  You just can't believe what people come up with. If they are Jesus, you get the Jesus shpeel, Muslim you get the Mo' shpeel, and oh, I've gotten some incredibly ridiculous Hindu shpeels re winning lottery tickets and Ganeshi(Elephant God who has pet rats) and such.


Also, it's good to "be something" too(sniffle)...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 04:27:50 AM
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Unfalsifiable claims are bull pucky.  Scientists ignore that shit--non-scientists should too.  And I or anyone can present mountains of random circumstantial evidence enough to convict the alleged God's existence.  Pediatric cancer wards, DUI murders of innocents, wars, tsunamis, etc etc.  But really, God cannot exist if evolution exists(which it does):  you can't get there from here.  The deist God also cannot exist, it's illogical as to omniscience, omnipresence and all that alleged crapola.

It's humankind and the rest of the natural world and universe--that's it, that's more than enough to deal with.  Space?  There's nothin out there but fire and brimstone and darkness, forever.

Seriously, it's a YOOGE relief to realize this, and your logical brain works much better as a result of not being clogged up with all that illogical, fantastical, religious garbledeegook.

Actually, the argument that a deity makes bad things happen is not a really good arguement.  A deity could do anything it wants for any reason.  Kind of like me stepping on worms on the driveway after it rains deliberately or not even noticing they are there.

My argument against one is mostly by lack of evidence for existence or need for one.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 04:33:28 AM
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Actually, the argument that a deity makes bad things happen is not a really good arguement.  A deity could do anything it wants for any reason.  Kind of like me stepping on worms on the driveway after it rains deliberately or not even noticing they are there.

My argument against one is mostly by lack of evidence for existence or need for one.
You dont read so well, bud.  The bad things happen because there is no God.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 04:38:26 AM
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You dont read so well, bud.  The bad things happen because there is no God.

No, bad events can't happen BECAUSE there is no god.  That would require the absence of a god for an event to occur and that makes no sense.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 07:06:15 AM
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Actually, the argument that a deity makes bad things happen is not a really good arguement.  A deity could do anything it wants for any reason.  Kind of like me stepping on worms on the driveway after it rains deliberately or not even noticing they are there.

My argument against one is mostly by lack of evidence for existence or need for one.

Thanks for quoting the best book in the Bible, the Book of Job.  G-d was having a boring day, so he let his Vizier (aka Satan aka Attorney General) go have fun on his biggest fan.  G-d is a dick.  You also just justified my view that people are demigods.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2017, 08:13:46 AM
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Even as an atheist, I can't say there isn't some deity.
That would make you an agnostic as well as an atheist.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 08:21:38 AM
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That would make you an agnostic as well as an atheist.

In my most pedantic moments, I would say none of us can help but be agnostic in certain senses of the word.  A word meaning "I Don't Know" does mean almost nothing, after all.  But I am an atheist in the sense that I follow no theistic belief, see no evidence of a deity, and find the whole idea rather laughable. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2017, 08:53:35 AM
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In my most pedantic moments, I would say none of us can help but be agnostic in certain senses of the word.  A word meaning "I Don't Know" does mean almost nothing, after all.  But I am an atheist in the sense that I follow no theistic belief, see no evidence of a deity, and find the whole idea rather laughable. 
Yeah, I understand that, and you are free to reject the label of agnostic, but that's not the same thing as accepting colloquial definition.  You know; "Colloquial?"  It's the definition used mostly by Christians and people who don't know what Huxley was describing.  But I doubt that you prefer being defined by religious nutcases, who don't understand concepts of simple things like... Knowledge.

And you are right.  Agnosticism is not a big deal.  Not knowing is not a big deal.  It's nothing really.  But the rub in using the colloquial definition is that it is a device used by theists to elevate unsupported quirks of imagination to the same level of knowing:  A theist does not have to admit he doesn't know.  Instead he claims knowledge of the unknowable, and elevates his premonitions and warm fuzzy feelings to the level of rational inquiry.

While agnosticism is not a big deal, the misperceptions caused by the colloquial use can be a big deal, but in a negative way.  It boasts of knowledge when faced with the unknowable.  It's is the same dynamic Hitler used to "know" that Jews needed to be exterminated.  He knew it because he knew it.

But tell a Christian they are agnostic, and they are likely to think it's a big deal in spite of the fact that "not knowing" is not a big deal.  It's important for them to know, and to suggest otherwise will illicit their contempt and self-righteousness.  Theists would sweep it away, because they won't be bothered to ever contemplate something that can't be known.  The very idea is abhorrent, so they change the meaning.  But it would be a good thing for them to contemplate their ignorance.

And if you accept their taxonomy, you allow them to label you.  In a way, you imply that you know something you don't, and possibly with the same conviction they do... and you become like them.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 09:15:48 AM
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Yeah, I understand that, and you are free to reject the label of agnostic, but that's not the same thing as accepting colloquial definition.  You know; "Colloquial?"  It's the definition used mostly by Christians and people who don't know what Huxley was describing.  But I doubt that you prefer being defined by religious nutcases, who don't understand concepts of simple things like... Knowledge.

And you are right.  Agnosticism is not a big deal.  Not knowing is not a big deal.  It's nothing really.  But the rub in using the colloquial definition is that it is a device used by theists to elevate unsupported quirks of imagination to the same level of knowing:  A theist does not have to admit he doesn't know.  Instead he claims knowledge of the unknowable, and elevates his premonitions and warm fuzzy feelings to the level of rational inquiry.

While agnosticism is not a big deal, the misperceptions caused by the colloquial use can be a big deal, but in a negative way.  It boasts of knowledge when faced with the unknowable.  It's is the same dynamic Hitler used to "know" that Jews needed to be exterminated.  He knew it because he knew it.

But tell a Christian they are agnostic, and they are likely to think it's a big deal in spite of the fact that "not knowing" is not a big deal.  It's important for them to know, and to suggest otherwise will illicit their contempt and self-righteousness.  Theists would sweep it away, because they won't be bothered to ever contemplate something that can't be known.  The very idea is abhorrent, so they change the meaning.  But it would be a good thing for them to contemplate their ignorance.

And if you accept their taxonomy, you allow them to label you.  In a way, you imply that you know something you don't, and possibly with the same conviction they do... and you become like them.

Well, that's one reason I don't like the term "agnostic".  I know original meaning; that theists could never actually understand the nature of God.  But that's not how the term is used today meaning "uncertain" about the existence of a deity. 

As an atheist, I find both meanings annoying.  The first because it assumes there is a god.  The second because it describes a position that all must have in a certain way. 

I don't much try to prove there isn't a deity of some sort somewhere anymore (negative proofs and all that nonsense).  But equally given no evidence, I choose to think the deity-concept both ridiculous and unnecessary for any purpose of the universe.

Atheism means having no thesistic belief, and I have none.  If some deity creted the universe in a finger flick and left, and then came back tomorrow saying "remember me?", I would not be logically shocked. 

I WOULD be highly annoyed and dismayed.  Shocked even.  But I consider the likelihood of that seriously minor-to-vanishing.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2017, 09:42:34 AM
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Well, that's one reason I don't like the term "agnostic".  I know original meaning; that theists could never actually understand the nature of God. 
Without looking up Huxley's exact words, I don't think that's how he defined agnosticism.  I'm pretty sure he meant, "God's existence is unknowable."  But there is an example of the imprecision of perception.  Even knowing the original meaning, we both interpret it differently.

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As an atheist, I find both meanings annoying.  The first because it assumes there is a god. 
See, I don't think that Huxley assumed any such thing.

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The second because it describes a position that all must have in a certain way. 
Agreed, and this is my biggest rub with the colloquial definition.  Not only do we not have the same position in the same way as theists, but the bigger issue is that we arrive at conclusions and beliefs in an entirely different way, using entirely different processes.

Granted, some atheists don't use the rational process either, even ones who make no positive claim that a "God does not exist."  But a rational process is important, and Huxley's agnosticism is central to that process.  We need to understand what we cannot know, so we can stop wasting our time in rational inquiry about it, at least until such time as it becomes knowable.

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I don't much try to prove there isn't a deity of some sort somewhere anymore (negative proofs and all that nonsense).  But equally given no evidence, I choose to think the deity-concept both ridiculous and unnecessary for any purpose of the universe.

Atheism means having no thesistic belief, and I have none.  If some deity creted the universe in a finger flick and left, and then came back tomorrow saying "remember me?", I would not be logically shocked. 

I WOULD be highly annoyed and dismayed.  Shocked even.  But I consider the likelihood of that seriously minor-to-vanishing.
See, we are very much of the same mind.  We are having a semantic quibble.  I usually avoid discussions of semantics, but this issue attracts my attention, and I'm not entirely sure why it's so important to me. 

Perhaps, because the realization that I could not know was one of the bigger insights in my journey to atheism.  It was life changing and marks an important milestone in my personal growth. 

Life long atheists might not see such an insight as anything so important, because they were never in a quagmire of irrational spirituality to begin with.  They never had to climb out of the hole, so to speak.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 09:55:23 AM
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Without looking up Huxley's exact words, I don't think that's how he defined agnosticism.  I'm pretty sure he meant, "God's existence is unknowable."  But there is an example of the imprecision of perception.  Even knowing the original meaning, we both interpret it differently.
See, I don't think that Huxley assumed any such thing.
Agreed, and this is my biggest rub with the colloquial definition.  Not only do we not have the same position in the same way as theists, but the bigger issue is that we arrive at conclusions and beliefs in an entirely different way, using entirely different processes.

Granted, some atheists don't use the rational process either, even ones who make no positive claim that a "God does not exist."  But a rational process is important, and Huxley's agnosticism is central to that process.  We need to understand what we cannot know, so we can stop wasting our time in rational inquiry about it, at least until such time as it becomes knowable.
See, we are very much of the same mind.  We are having a semantic quibble.  I usually avoid discussions of semantics, but this issue attracts my attention, and I'm not entirely sure why it's so important to me. 

Perhaps, because the realization that I could not know was one of the bigger insights in my journey to atheism.  It was life changing and marks an important milestone in my personal growth. 

Life long atheists might not see such an insight as anything so important, because they were never in a quagmire of irrational spirituality to begin with.  They never had to climb out of the hole, so to speak.

I have met all kinds of atheists in my life.  Some were convinced they had proof no deity could possibly exist, some were flaming communists, some were right wing nutcases, some were gay, most straight, most male, and too few female.  Some angry ex-theists, some (like me) who were never anything else but atheist, some who had to fight family and friends, and some who gradually became atheists without troubles.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 14, 2017, 10:52:43 AM
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Oh, ok.  Well, I find it fun and emboldening and fascinating to proclaim loud and clear to believers that I am an atheist and stand back and see WTF happens.  LOL, the fireworks are amazing!  You just can't believe what people come up with. If they are Jesus, you get the Jesus shpeel, Muslim you get the Mo' shpeel, and oh, I've gotten some incredibly ridiculous Hindu shpeels re winning lottery tickets and Ganeshi(Elephant God who has pet rats) and such.


Also, it's good to "be something" too(sniffle)...
I do use the word 'atheist' but I don't really think of it as a label that I actually am.  I am not fond of labels, but if I must really use one in this area, it is 'nonbeliever'.  I am not really anti-theist--I've actually met some I enjoy being around.  But I am anti-theism.  I regard any organized religion as deadly to the human mind.  So, I don't believe in any god(s).  I just don't believe--I like to use reasoning as opposed to beliefs, so nonbeliever suits me just fine.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2017, 11:08:41 AM
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I do use the word 'atheist' but I don't really think of it as a label that I actually am.  I am not fond of labels, but if I must really use one in this area, it is 'nonbeliever'.  I am not really anti-theist--I've actually met some I enjoy being around.  But I am anti-theism.  I regard any organized religion as deadly to the human mind.  So, I don't believe in any god(s).  I just don't believe--I like to use reasoning as opposed to beliefs, so nonbeliever suits me just fine.
Again we agree.  While I tend to make a big deal lobbying for the correct definition of agnostic, if I'm actually asked (which is seldom), I usually say, "I'm an atheist."  If I'm feeling fearful about it at the moment, might just say, "I don't have a belief in a god." 

I seldom say I'm an agnostic, because people almost never ask why I'm an atheist.  This has happened to me only once.  It's as if they don't want the reason, which would make sense because reason wasn't important to the process they used to formulate their own belief, and they would have no reason to think reason entered into my own quest.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 11:11:31 AM
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I do use the word 'atheist' but I don't really think of it as a label that I actually am.  I am not fond of labels, but if I must really use one in this area, it is 'nonbeliever'.  I am not really anti-theist--I've actually met some I enjoy being around.  But I am anti-theism.  I regard any organized religion as deadly to the human mind.  So, I don't believe in any god(s).  I just don't believe--I like to use reasoning as opposed to beliefs, so nonbeliever suits me just fine.

Worth remembering that "atheist" is not "anti-theist", just "non-theist".
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 11:14:01 AM
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Again we agree.  While I tend to make a big deal lobbying for the correct definition of agnostic, if I'm actually asked (which is seldom), I usually say, "I'm an atheist."  If I'm feeling fearful about it at the moment, might just say, "I don't have a belief in a god." 

I seldom say I'm an agnostic, because people almost never ask why I'm an atheist.  This has happened to me only once.  It's as if they don't want the reason, which would make sense because reason wasn't important to the process they used to formulate their own belief, and they would have no reason to think reason entered into my own quest.

I'm impressed.  Most people hedge toward the agnostic side or beyond when pressed.  :)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 14, 2017, 11:18:05 AM
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Worth remembering that "atheist" is not "anti-theist", just "non-theist".
Yeah, I guess that is true.  But most regard 'atheist' as being anti their particular god.  And I have a hard time being anti god(s), since they are all fictions.  That's like being anti Bugs Bunny; makes no sense.  (But we are dealing with theists, so where does 'sense' come in.....) I just like nonbeliever for a label. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 14, 2017, 11:25:44 AM
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Yeah, I guess that is true.  But most regard 'atheist' as being anti their particular god.  And I have a hard time being anti god(s), since they are all fictions.  That's like being anti Bugs Bunny; makes no sense.  (But we are dealing with theists, so where does 'sense' come in.....) I just like nonbeliever for a label.

Yeah, so many people I know just have to think I believe in "something".  They keep prying at it.  I had a friend who was in the car when I expressed a hope the light would stay green.  He interpreted that as a prayer to a deity because he couldn't imagine not aiming hopes to one. 

The best I could ever explain it to him was that I was hoping "the random events in the universe operated in my favor".  He probably still thinks I'm some vague deist, because he can't imagine less belief than that.

We have since parted ways, BTW, LOL!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 14, 2017, 11:36:22 AM
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I'm impressed.  Most people hedge toward the agnostic side or beyond when pressed.  :)
When I pressed for an answer, I tend to say atheist, because I want to make it clear that I don't believe in a god.  It's important for me to be understood on that issue.  If I say, "Agnostic," I have no way of knowing what kind of conclusions they might come too.  "Atheist" can create some misunderstanding, but is much less open to misunderstanding than "agnostic."
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 02:35:56 PM
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Worth remembering that "atheist" is not "anti-theist", just "non-theist".
It IS anti if the Theists are trying to oppress yo azz and or if you just want to take the initiative in tearing down their sand castles in the sky.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 02:42:02 PM
Agnostic is like 99.9999999% atheist.  Just take the next micro step, dont be scared.  God's never going to suddenly show up someday, since it never existed in the 1st place.  Its all a big fat lie.  Getting over the lie is the tough part, but its doable.  Everybody wants a "hero" though to save them, though.  Save them from what?  The struggles imposed upon them by the system they themselves have designed?  Only humans can change what humans do.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2017, 06:10:27 PM
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Why was anything Paul wrote in the Bible? the guy admits up front that he wasn't there....
Probably for the same reason that Simon "Peter" was considered the first pope - even though Jesus called him Satan, and he denied knowing Jesus - three times.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2017, 06:26:17 PM
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And don't forget Sai Baba's infamous powder poof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtxYjMZTnU

Kid's love that shit.
Wow, Sai Baba kind of looks like Mary Allen:


(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/4jkXO7zy6cs/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2017, 06:34:43 PM
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Thanks for quoting the best book in the Bible, the Book of Job.

I prefer Ecclesiastes - it seems more in line with reality. Except for the parts that were added later, to make it say stuff about God.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 07:53:14 PM
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I prefer Ecclesiastes - it seems more in line with reality. Except for the parts that were added later, to make it say stuff about God.

Kids, don't read Ecclesiastes, until you are over 50.  It might sour your youthful idealism.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 14, 2017, 08:02:28 PM
Maybe that's what happened to me, then. I read it when I was about 14. It made me a cynical pessimist.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 08:40:45 PM
I've never read much of the Bible, or any "holy" book.  The Bhagavad Gita has some real good stuff in it, though I wouldn't say it is any better that Jesus's best advice.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 14, 2017, 08:51:12 PM
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I've never read much of the Bible, or any "holy" book much.  The Bhagavad Gita has some real good stuff in it, though I wouldn't say it is any better that Jesus's best advice.

Namaste ... and don't sleep with Draupadi, her five husbands don't like that ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 14, 2017, 09:02:38 PM
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Namaste ... and don't sleep with Draupadi, her five husbands don't like that ;-)
Alotta of the typical war stuff in the Bhagavad Gita too.  More elephants, though.  They have rat temples in India because the elephant god Ganeshi has pet rats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxWX7wgTj9E
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 15, 2017, 06:44:39 AM
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They have rat temples in India.
Is that like the Corn Palace in South Dakota, the Montana Vortex - where water flows uphill, or Park of the Arc in Kentucky?

You're Almost There
Only 15 More Miles

Don't Miss it
The Rat Temple
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 15, 2017, 06:59:36 AM
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Is that like the Corn Palace in South Dakota, the Montana Vortex - where water flows uphill, or Park of the Arc in Kentucky?

You're Almost There
Only 15 More Miles

Don't Miss it
The Rat Temple
Yeah, "Mystery Caves" and the like.  Bob's Big Boy right next door, and the obligatory Cabellas of course.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 15, 2017, 07:34:59 AM
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Alotta of the typical war stuff in the Bhagavad Gita too.  More elephants, though.  They have rat temples in India because the elephant god Ganeshi has pet rats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxWX7wgTj9E

I prefer the Tantric porn temples.  I was married to a rat (not really).  And no, you haven't READ the Gita, if you think it is about war.  Metaphor and you don't mix.  But if you shave your head, swear loyalty to be as your guru, put on a dhoti, and chant "rama, rama, rama .. ding-dong" ... you can be taught ;-))
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 15, 2017, 08:34:17 AM
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I prefer the Tantric porn temples.  I was married to a rat (not really).  And no, you haven't READ the Gita, if you think it is about war.  Metaphor and you don't mix.  But if you shave your head, swear loyalty to be as your guru, put on a dhoti, and chant "rama, rama, rama .. ding-dong" ... you can be taught ;-))
Yeah, blah blah, "metaphorical war", blah blah, I guess thats why the Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims are always going to battle and killing each other over a plop of ground, its just metaphorical war, right?  There are Hindu fascists, you do know that, right?  In fact they are in power over there right now in India.  Narendra Modi and his Hindu RSS gang of Nazi thugs.  They liked Hitler.  Alotta religious folk liked Hitler.  Savitri Devi, "goddess" of New Age fascism and Hitler's best groupie.  I mentioned Hirohito.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 15, 2017, 06:55:45 PM
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Yeah, blah blah, "metaphorical war", blah blah, I guess thats why the Hindus and Buddhists and Muslims are always going to battle and killing each other over a plop of ground, its just metaphorical war, right?  There are Hindu fascists, you do know that, right?  In fact they are in power over there right now in India.  Narendra Modi and his Hindu RSS gang of Nazi thugs.  They liked Hitler.  Alotta religious folk liked Hitler.  Savitri Devi, "goddess" of New Age fascism and Hitler's best groupie.  I mentioned Hirohito.

Yes, the Japanese did pervert Buddhism during the recent Emperor era.  And they aren't the first Chakravartin to try that.  There was a Chinese emperor who tried to do that, with pacifism (not militarism) and failed spectacularly.  Well if you see everything as war (class struggle is a war) ... then every literature is war literature.

The point of the Gita ... is bhakti worship of the Hindu gods, particularly Lord Krishna.  This is a revolution (you like those) against the upper classes.  Messianic Judaism was a revolt against the Jewish upper classes too.  Buddhism was middle class revolt, like the Americans in 1776.  Basically Buddhism was the revolt of the Kshatriyas against the Brahmins.  Bhakti Hinduism is the revolt of the Sudras ... against both.  But Gandhi's revolt of the Untouchables, was successfully suppressed thru assassination.  Eventually Buddhism failed, when the Kshatriyas lost power.  That and Islamic invasion of India gave the Indians something else to worry about ;-)  Messianic Judaism was the revolt of the Am Ha-Aretz ... against the Tzaddukim and the Parushim ... who jointly ruled Judea from the beginning of the Roman occupation forward.  If you are going to mess with history, the details are important ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: etienne on March 15, 2017, 08:27:00 PM
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Yes, the Japanese did pervert Buddhism during the recent Emperor era.  And they aren't the first Chakravartin to try that.  There was a Chinese emperor who tried to do that, with pacifism (not militarism) and failed spectacularly.  Well if you see everything as war (class struggle is a war) ... then every literature is war literature.

The point of the Gita ... is bhakti worship of the Hindu gods, particularly Lord Krishna.  This is a revolution (you like those) against the upper classes.  Messianic Judaism was a revolt against the Jewish upper classes too.  Buddhism was middle class revolt, like the Americans in 1776.  Basically Buddhism was the revolt of the Kshatriyas against the Brahmins.  Bhakti Hinduism is the revolt of the Sudras ... against both.  But Gandhi's revolt of the Untouchables, was successfully suppressed thru assassination.  Eventually Buddhism failed, when the Kshatriyas lost power.  That and Islamic invasion of India gave the Indians something else to worry about ;-)  Messianic Judaism was the revolt of the Am Ha-Aretz ... against the Tzaddukim and the Parushim ... who jointly ruled Judea from the beginning of the Roman occupation forward.  If you are going to mess with history, the details are important ;-)
Revolutions require war so you can weaponize a religion, any religion, even Jainism, where the believers essentially start committing suicide so as not to step on a bug. ;)  And the Hindu RSS assassinated Gandhi--because they are Hindu Nationalist Nazi inspired warriors.

And, history:

Quote
Gita (the “Song of God”)......began life, sometime between the third century BC and the third century CE, as an epic argument persuading a warrior to engage in a battle, indeed, a particularly brutal, lawless, internecine war.
Quote
   http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/12/04/war-and-peace-bhagavad-gita/
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hydra009 on March 15, 2017, 09:10:19 PM
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After thousands of years of mythology, would there not be some sort of evidence for the supernatural?  Considering there is no evidence, it is more logical to assume there is nothing supernatural. 

Supernaturalism is nothing than mere imaginative fancy.

Reason and logic informs us after thousands of years of faith based ignorance that religious faith is useless.
That's essentially my position.

Let's assume for a moment that there is no such thing as a God.  What would that sort of world look like?  There'd be no miracles, no ghosts, no angels, no heaven, no hell.  Sure, there might be tales of supernatural stuff and some people would swear up and down that they're real, but you'd never be able to verify any of it.  Long on certitude, short on evidence, each and every time.

Now let's assume that a God exists.  Presumably, such a God's presence would be self-evident.  You'd meet people who really could walk on water, cure disease, part the sea, raise the dead, etc.  You could talk to God and get an actual reply.  The existence of God wouldn't be an open question, it'd be obvious to all.

Which one is more like our world?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 15, 2017, 11:25:23 PM
As a demigod, it is obvious to me.  Caligula wanted to make his horse, consul of Rome.  Misidentification on his part perhaps?  Most things most people say are unconscious dogmas.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on March 29, 2017, 07:29:31 AM
I have read the monotheistic books that is claimed the God... Oh no.. My possible God couldn't be that simple and illogical... All they are just fairy tales...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 29, 2017, 07:43:10 AM
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Let's assume for a moment that there is no such thing as a God.  What would that sort of world look like?  There'd be no miracles, no ghosts, no angels, no heaven, no hell.  Sure, there might be tales of supernatural stuff and some people would swear up and down that they're real, but you'd never be able to verify any of it.  Long on certitude, short on evidence, each and every time.
That thought is so obvious to me.  Our personal environment stunningly resembles a godless reality, rather than a reality that defies natural law and overflows with examples of heavenly love and the presence of a deity.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 31, 2017, 05:08:00 AM
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It IS anti if the Theists are trying to oppress yo azz and or if you just want to take the initiative in tearing down their sand castles in the sky.

You are missing the point.  "Atheism" is simply "not theistic".  Mostly, I just don't CARE about their ideas.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 31, 2017, 01:19:04 PM
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You are missing the point.  "Atheism" is simply "not theistic".  Mostly, I just don't CARE about their ideas.
Yeah, that's how I basically see it. 

But theists simply will not leave the rest of society alone.  They INSIST making all of us act and think as they do.  In that respect, I oppose what they believe.  And I'd love to see all religions torn to shreds and left bleeding to death on the ground.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 31, 2017, 06:22:09 PM
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Yeah, that's how I basically see it. 

But theists simply will not leave the rest of society alone.  They INSIST making all of us act and think as they do.  In that respect, I oppose what they believe.  And I'd love to see all religions torn to shreds and left bleeding to death on the ground.

Please don't hold your anger in ... I would hate for you to have an aneurism ;-(  Right now, I would burn every politician in Hell.  But I will feel better in the morning.  I hope you will too.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Mike Cl on March 31, 2017, 08:37:42 PM
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Please don't hold your anger in ... I would hate for you to have an aneurism ;-(  Right now, I would burn every politician in Hell.  But I will feel better in the morning.  I hope you will too.
Let me light the hell fire for the politicians for you--and me! :)  I fully realize my anger toward religion is only a pipe-dream anger.  I don't get aneurisms from that stuff.  Religion will be here long, long, after I'm gone and forgotten. 
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on March 31, 2017, 08:52:51 PM
It's much easier to spell than Bumbling Dork That Believes In A Magic Man In The Sky.
Otherwise I'd go to church every Sunday.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: surreptitious57 on April 02, 2017, 10:58:14 PM
I am an atheist because I see no evidence to support the truth claims of theism. With respect to the existence of God
The three most common justifications are personal belief and arguments from emotion and popularity. None of which
require evidence so the truth claim remains unsubstantiated. I use evidence and proof to determine the validity of all
truth claims. Any that has none can be rejected. This is why I reject all God hypotheses [ as there is more than one ]
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on April 03, 2017, 02:14:10 AM
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I am an atheist because I see no evidence to support the truth claims of theism. With respect to the existence of God
The three most common justifications are personal belief and arguments from emotion and popularity. None of which
require evidence so the truth claim remains unsubstantiated. I use evidence and proof to determine the validity of all
truth claims. Any that has none can be rejected. This is why I reject all God hypotheses [ as there is more than one ]

The "All In" with you there.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Alexmahone on March 14, 2018, 02:37:50 PM
I used to be a Christian until age 14. I'm an atheist mainly because I don't want to waste half my Sundays going to church.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Gawdzilla Sama on March 14, 2018, 02:45:02 PM
Born that way, the same as you.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on March 15, 2018, 01:56:29 AM
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I used to be a Christian until age 14. I'm an atheist mainly because I don't want to waste half my Sundays going to church.

Wasting a Sunday (or any other day) is never good.  But do you have any other reasons for considering yourself an atheist?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Alexmahone on March 15, 2018, 08:14:51 PM
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Wasting a Sunday (or any other day) is never good.  But do you have any other reasons for considering yourself an atheist?

I guess there are two major reasons:

First, I don't believe the mythological accounts of any religion. I spent my childhood in India where I was exposed to a lot of Hinduism, like the fascinating tales of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. But if your story has talking animals, demons with ten heads and people who can fly without the aid of modern technology, that's a sign that it may not be historically accurate.

Second, I don't believe prayer has any benefits apart from the placebo effect. And the placebo effect works only if you believe someone is listening to your prayers, and I don't think there is good reason now to believe so. Moreover, the presence of so much evil and suffering in the world rules out the presence of an omnipotent and benevolent being.

That said, I am open to the possibility that after we die, we may be reborn, perhaps in an other universe, but I'm sure there can be no evidence for this.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 15, 2018, 09:02:37 PM
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I guess there are two major reasons:

First, I don't believe the mythological accounts of any religion. I spent my childhood in India where I was exposed to a lot of Hinduism, like the fascinating tales of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. But if your story has talking animals, demons with ten heads and people who can fly without the aid of modern technology, that's a sign that it may not be historically accurate.

Second, I don't believe prayer has any benefits apart from the placebo effect. And the placebo effect works only if you believe someone is listening to your prayers, and I don't think there is good reason now to believe so. Moreover, the presence of so much evil and suffering in the world rules out the presence of an omnipotent and benevolent being.

That said, I am open to the possibility that after we die, we may be reborn, perhaps in an other universe, but I'm sure there can be no evidence for this.

Congrats on being from a great culture.  But one doesn't have to curry favor with us ;-)  And yes, mythology is for children (Santa Clause isn't scientifically or historically accurate), but people never grow up, they simply adopt more sophisticated toys.  I enjoy Hindu stories, but this is easier because they are foreign.

The placebo benefit (which is a real benefit in psychosomatic medicine) is the positive effect on the person making the prayer (or the doctor's bedside manner), not on any supposed subject of prayer.  That is what magic is, auto-hypnosis or subject hypnosis.  In this case, subject hypnosis works in group worship, but not so much on a distant target.  And of course it works in politics too effectively.  Without light hypnosis we would have no culture, no language.

In paganism, there is no reason to believe that deities are benevolent.  And monotheism is clearly a metaphysical crash.  Clearly any or all deities are not benevolent.  No, if you knew Mahayana Buddhism, you would know that there is only the Present, that time as such is an illusion.  But illusions can be pragmatic.  In fact, to control people's beliefs about the past and the future ... is the basis of politics.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 16, 2018, 01:53:50 PM
Einstein also believed time to be an illusion. I wonder if he was Hindu? But the only God he believed in was that of Spinoza.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 16, 2018, 03:49:23 PM
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Einstein also believed time to be an illusion.
So he said, and I can certainly see from the point of relativity that time could be an illusion, and even from my personal experience, in that before I was born and under periods of anesthesia, time didn't exist, so it may only be an illusion of the living, but time seems to continue without the living.  As Einstein points out, the illusion of time is a very convincing illusion.  It  doesn't exist just for schizophrenics.   Theoretical physics is helpful.  It explains a lot, but some things often remain unaccounted for in theory.  If time is just an illusion, it seems like a dicey thing to include in the most important theory Einstein came up with.  Well maybe time itself is not part of the theory, but speed certainly is, and speed seems to be rather dependent on time, and aspects of time are rendered in some of Einstein's own explanations of relativity. "Tme as an illusion," is fun to play with in intellectual and spiritual exercises.  But the jury may not be in yet.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 16, 2018, 08:43:38 PM
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Einstein also believed time to be an illusion. I wonder if he was Hindu? But the only God he believed in was that of Spinoza.

Yes, Einstein knew I was a demigod, even before I was born.  That takes genius!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Sal1981 on March 16, 2018, 08:49:08 PM
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Einstein also believed time to be an illusion. I wonder if he was Hindu? But the only God he believed in was that of Spinoza.
I think time exists as a sort of "fabric" of space, i.e. change and processes, and that only time is measurable through the "arrow of time", which is rate of change thanks to entropy. I don't think time exists ontologically. I gets kinda funky with relativity too.

A good indication that time is an illusion like this, is non-locality of time, there's no universal time reference, but only point references.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 16, 2018, 08:49:40 PM
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So he said, and I can certainly see from the point of relativity that time could be an illusion, and even from my personal experience, in that before I was born and under periods of anesthesia, time didn't exist, so it may only be an illusion of the living, but time seems to continue without the living.  As Einstein points out, the illusion of time is a very convincing illusion.  It  doesn't exist just for schizophrenics.   Theoretical physics is helpful.  It explains a lot, but some things often remain unaccounted for in theory.  If time is just an illusion, it seems like a dicey thing to include in the most important theory Einstein came up with.  Well maybe time itself is not part of the theory, but speed certainly is, and speed seems to be rather dependent on time, and aspects of time are rendered in some of Einstein's own explanations of relativity. "Tme as an illusion," is fun to play with in intellectual and spiritual exercises.  But the jury may not be in yet.

I suspect he was joking.  Space-time was crucial to explain STR and without it, would make GTR impossible.  Newtonian time is an illusion (aka absolute time) just as Newtonian space is an illusion (aka absolute space).  But it is a good illusion at low speed, and in weak gravitation.  Minkowski saved Einstein's chestnuts (he invented space-time, not Einstein), and then conveniently died before he could take more credit.  Minkowski had been one of Einstein's math teachers in college.  As it was Hilbert (another math professor) who nearly invented GTR before Einstein, they were in a friendly race.  What helped Einstein was he as bad at math, and thought in terms of logical/physical puzzles, not the pure etherium of a true mathematician.  Hilbert remarked that the average undergrad in his college knew more geometry than Einstein, but they only color within the lines, Einstein never would, on any subject.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on March 16, 2018, 09:47:40 PM
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A good indication that time is an illusion like this, is non-locality of time, there's no universal time reference, but only point references.
It's difficult to imagine (not the same thing as being false).  At best, I can imagine non-locality only before the singularity.  There is no place for the singularity to occur because there is no universe, and space-time does not yet exist.  But when the singularity does occur, space-time comes into existence along with matter.  I've only been told this, but I can accept it.

With the creation of matter, places come into being, if only relative to each other, and we can travel from place to place because time now exists.

I just googled and had non-locality explained to me, but this is as far as I can imagine it.  In the universe, places exist relative to each other, but what place the universe occupies is still encumbered by there being nothing anywhere else that has a place, which suggests to me that the universe is nowhere.  Consequently, every place in the universe is also nowhere in this bigger picture.

This rather satisfies me for the moment, even if I'm imagining it wrong.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on March 17, 2018, 12:54:10 AM
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I think time exists as a sort of "fabric" of space, i.e. change and processes, and that only time is measurable through the "arrow of time", which is rate of change thanks to entropy. I don't think time exists ontologically. I gets kinda funky with relativity too.

A good indication that time is an illusion like this, is non-locality of time, there's no universal time reference, but only point references.
It is part of space, insofar as we can refer to four-dimensional spacetime.

The explanation of what happens inside the event horizon of a black hole is that you gain the freedom to move along the time dimension, but lose the freedom to move along one spatial dimension, which means you're drawn towards the singularity inside a black hole in more or less the same way that you're drawn towards the future outside a black hole.

The nature of time, however, remains elusive.  Hawking suggested, as a proposal rather than a full theory, that time automatically flows in the same direction as the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which would make it almost trivial.

I once worked out, when ten-dimensional space was theorized to be at the bottom of superstrings, that you could get three dimensions out of ten by intersecting nine of them each rotated around the tenth, and that tenth unrotated and unintersected dimension would be the one we experience as time.  Alas, eleven seems to be the number, so my geometrical approach was no more than an interesting cogitation.  But the math was pretty.  :)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on March 17, 2018, 02:50:54 PM
Space/time my exist only as an emergent quality of the universe, much as wetness is an emergent quality of water. And, just as water looks continuous and smooth from our perspective, it's really made up of very tiny particles. I've recently heard about an idea called causal set theory that posits a similar granularity to space/time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6uHQhGC65U


Quote
The causal sets program is an approach to quantum gravity. Its founding principles are that spacetime is fundamentally discrete (a collection of discrete spacetime points, called the elements of the causal set) and that spacetime events are related by a partial order. This partial order has the physical meaning of the causality relations between spacetime events.


http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/causal_sets.html

Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on March 17, 2018, 11:49:51 PM
Alfred North Whitehead tried to build an entire philosophy out of Space-time (as understood in the 1920s).  Einstein said, keep everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.  So far, nobody has been able to describe mass-energy or charge etc directly from space-time alone.  They are always something added.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SoldierofFortune on April 10, 2018, 08:24:42 AM
Nowadays i have been researching on the simulation argument which is kind of a theistic idea...
I have decided that it is worth thinking on it.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2018, 01:05:48 PM
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Nowadays i have been researching on the simulation argument which is kind of a theistic idea...
I have decided that it is worth thinking on it.

Where were you when Drew_2017 was posting a year ago?  That is his exact hobby horse.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 10, 2018, 01:40:59 PM
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Nowadays i have been researching on the simulation argument which is kind of a theistic idea...
I have decided that it is worth thinking on it.

Are you referring to the idea that we might be living in a simulation? Even if we are then whomever is running the simulation may themselves be living in a simulation, and so on ad infinitum. Or somewhere there  may be a rock bottom reality that is not being simulated, and is the base reality from which all other simulations are generated.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 10, 2018, 04:35:26 PM
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Are you referring to the idea that we might be living in a simulation? Even if we are then whomever is running the simulation may themselves be living in a simulation, and so on ad infinitum. Or somewhere there  may be a rock bottom reality that is not being simulated, and is the base reality from which all other simulations are generated.
I recommend The Thirteenth Floor if you can find it.  It's an old movie, but well done.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 10, 2018, 06:09:17 PM
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I recommend The Thirteenth Floor if you can find it.  It's an old movie, but well done.
I found it at youtube, watching it now.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 10, 2018, 07:34:58 PM
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I found it at youtube, watching it now.
According to your time stamp, I assume it's over.  I hope you liked it.  It's somewhere in my favorite top ten, a least that's where I put it before Marvel entered the scene.  It may still be in my top ten, but it's a harder call now.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2018, 07:47:10 PM
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Are you referring to the idea that we might be living in a simulation? Even if we are then whomever is running the simulation may themselves be living in a simulation, and so on ad infinitum. Or somewhere there  may be a rock bottom reality that is not being simulated, and is the base reality from which all other simulations are generated.

No, it is anime turtles all the way down ...

The Thirteenth Floor (I didn't watch it, just looked it up in Wiki) sounds like a parallel to the film noir holodeck simulation that Capt Picard likes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ7CGBM4JJo
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 10, 2018, 08:02:38 PM
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According to your time stamp, I assume it's over.  I hope you liked it.  It's somewhere in my favorite top ten, a least that's where I put it before Marvel entered the scene.  It may still be in my top ten, but it's a harder call now.
Just finished it. Pretty good movie, indeed! The plot had some twists, the acting was great, and they all lived happily ever after. Well, except for the ones who died...

I really don't think it would bother me that much to find out we all live in a simulation. At least, I wouldn't go nuts about it, I'd just get on with life as it is. I would be curious about whomever it is that is running the sim, though.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 10, 2018, 08:07:35 PM
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No, it is anime turtles all the way down ...

The Thirteenth Floor (I didn't watch it, just looked it up in Wiki) sounds like a parallel to the film noir holodeck simulation that Capt Picard likes.
I really enjoyed the Moriarty episodes. They were intriguing.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 10, 2018, 08:20:16 PM
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Just finished it. Pretty good movie, indeed! The plot had some twists, the acting was great, and they all lived happily ever after. Well, except for the ones who died...

I really don't think it would bother me that much to find out we all live in a simulation. At least, I wouldn't go nuts about it, I'd just get on with life as it is. I would be curious about whomever it is that is running the sim, though.

I could live in a simulation of that quality.  The one unnerving thing about it for me that it was obviously a powerful sim, and while they had a room of what looked like 100 refrigerator sized servers, they were entering DOS code in what looked like Commodore computers, but then it's an older film.  They probably weren't Commodores, but they sure looked dated.  I always chuckle over that part of the film.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: aitm on April 10, 2018, 09:13:07 PM
It is the natural default position. If it so, why would it be so? If it was not so, why is it so?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2018, 09:16:24 PM
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Just finished it. Pretty good movie, indeed! The plot had some twists, the acting was great, and they all lived happily ever after. Well, except for the ones who died...

I really don't think it would bother me that much to find out we all live in a simulation. At least, I wouldn't go nuts about it, I'd just get on with life as it is. I would be curious about whomever it is that is running the sim, though.

My experience with The Sims, is that their language is gibberish ... so we can't be a simulation ... though the politicians might be ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 10, 2018, 09:17:37 PM
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I could live in a simulation of that quality.  The one unnerving thing about it for me that it was obviously a powerful sim, and while they had a room of what looked like 100 refrigerator sized servers, they were entering DOS code in what looked like Commodore computers, but then it's an older film.  They probably weren't Commodores, but they sure looked dated.  I always chuckle over that part of the film.

Amigas ... Commodore made inferior hardware ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on April 11, 2018, 12:51:37 PM
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[T]hey all lived happily ever after. Well, except for the ones who died...
I am so stealing this for a story sometime...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Jason78 on April 11, 2018, 01:08:58 PM
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I could live in a simulation of that quality.  The one unnerving thing about it for me that it was obviously a powerful sim, and while they had a room of what looked like 100 refrigerator sized servers, they were entering DOS code in what looked like Commodore computers, but then it's an older film.  They probably weren't Commodores, but they sure looked dated.  I always chuckle over that part of the film.

It doesn't matter if you're coding on a VT52 or an Commodore 64 if it's just a terminal to a big piece of iron.

Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 11, 2018, 01:25:42 PM
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I am so stealing this for a story sometime...
You can have it for tree fiddy...you got tree fiddy?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Unbeliever on April 11, 2018, 01:27:26 PM
My only concern about living in a simulation would be whether the equipment we're running on is good enough that we don't get unfortunate glitches. We don't need no stinkin' glitches!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 11, 2018, 01:36:27 PM
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My only concern about living in a simulation would be whether the equipment we're running on is good enough that we don't get unfortunate glitches. We don't need no stinkin' glitches!

Well, that pretty much proves we are a simulation.  Are you MS Bob?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on April 11, 2018, 03:39:13 PM
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It doesn't matter if you're coding on a VT52 or an Commodore 64 if it's just a terminal to a big piece of iron.
Oh, almighty Bob, I haven't had my hands on a VT52 terminal in 35 years...
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 11, 2018, 03:54:48 PM
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Oh, almighty Bob, I haven't had my hands on a VT52 terminal in 35 years...

VT100 terminals were quite good, particularly if you got the green phosphor kind ;-)  And yes, that was over 30 years ago ... though we still had them even 15 years ago.  Once software was "graphical" that was the death of a really practical no-nonsense user I/F.  Damn you Mac and Windows!  If you can't express yourself in ASCII, then don't even bother!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hydra009 on April 11, 2018, 05:35:18 PM
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My only concern about living in a simulation would be whether the equipment we're running on is good enough that we don't get unfortunate glitches. We don't need no stinkin' glitches!
(https://i.imgur.com/6e7b3D4.jpg)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: GrinningYMIR on April 11, 2018, 06:08:24 PM
If we’re in a simulation then I must Complain about he lack of a major content update, weapons packs are all well and good but the half finished space dlc was annoying and we haven’t seen a new race since 56000 BC. We want new races mods
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Hydra009 on April 11, 2018, 06:20:38 PM
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If we’re in a simulation then I must Complain about he lack of a major content update, weapons packs are all well and good but the half finished space dlc was annoying and we haven’t seen a new race since 56000 BC. We want new races mods
No race stuff, plz.  Complaints about perceived racial trait imbalances practically destroyed the community last patch (documentation is nonexistant, so we're going by people's guesstimations from experience, which isn't particularly reliable)

What we need are quality of life fixes  - fixing the happiness drain bug (it decreases faster over time than it should), improved recovery times (no one should be out of mana/energy after logging off for 8 hours), and the rare but widespread bug where people randomly get a severe damage debuff despite not actually taking damage or being in combat at all.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Jason78 on April 12, 2018, 01:51:16 PM
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Oh, almighty Bob, I haven't had my hands on a VT52 terminal in 35 years...

I was hacking my way through the internet at a very young age :)   

Dial up account without a shell?  No thanks :D
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on April 12, 2018, 02:08:36 PM
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I was hacking my way through the internet at a very young age :)   

Dial up account without a shell?  No thanks :D
We weren't even Internet-connected back then—the VT52s were terminals onto our VAX system.  There were two VT52s, and twelve to sixteen VT100s (or similar) in the computer room in the basement of the library.  And a terminal in each dorm building.  Yes, I did mean a terminal.  Per building.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on April 12, 2018, 09:50:40 PM
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If we’re in a simulation then I must Complain about he lack of a major content update, weapons packs are all well and good but the half finished space dlc was annoying and we haven’t seen a new race since 56000 BC. We want new races mods

What some people consider to be "races" are merely slight differences in skin color as our same ancestors adapted to changes in sunlight in different ways as we all explored the world.  In some places, we adapted evolving pale, yellowish, or reddish skin.  Apparently all those adaptation worked well enough since people of the same origin are still living.

I might well think that some people with bluish or greenish skin started to evolve (as equally random mutations) but it did give much of an advantage.

So we have differently colored skins that seem to have worked where we lived, and it doesn't much matter today.  We can all live well anywhere due to modern society (we all mostly lived inside structures), and so skin color doesn't make any difference.  With globalization, we are all going to be some shade of moderate tan soon enough.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 12, 2018, 10:00:21 PM
I would be concerned that green people might wither in the Fall ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 12, 2018, 10:26:47 PM
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I would be concerned that green people might wither in the Fall ;-)
The structure of a hemoglobin molecule is almost identical to chlorophyll, with one atom of iron, instead of manganese (or is it magnesium?).  I saw the molecule diagrams for them in biology side by side, but I noticed other structural changes besides just that one.  We must be related to plants.  Well of course we would be.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on April 12, 2018, 11:17:35 PM
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The structure of a hemoglobin molecule is almost identical to chlorophyll, with one atom of iron, instead of manganese (or is it magnesium?).  I saw the molecule diagrams for them in biology side by side, but I noticed other structural changes besides just that one.  We must be related to plants.  Well of course we would be.

I had to look it up, but I was interested enough to do that.

Hemoglobin and Chlorophyll have similar structures. The main difference is that hemoglobin is built around iron (Fe), where as chlorophyll is built around magnesium, (Mg).  The primary function for hemoglobin is to transport oxygen from the lungs to other parts of the body.  Hemoglobin is composed of four elements- carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. All four are organized around iron. Chlorophyll is composed of the same elements, which are organized around magnesium.

(https://cdn.patchcdn.com/users/1730190/2012/08/T800x600/8a9f5f8f1aae9c8a5283c9fe581751de.jpg)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on April 13, 2018, 07:21:03 AM
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I had to look it up, but I was interested enough to do that.

Hemoglobin and Chlorophyll have similar structures. The main difference is that hemoglobin is built around iron (Fe), where as chlorophyll is built around magnesium, (Mg).  The primary function for hemoglobin is to transport oxygen from the lungs to other parts of the body.  Hemoglobin is composed of four elements- carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. All four are organized around iron. Chlorophyll is composed of the same elements, which are organized around magnesium.

(https://cdn.patchcdn.com/users/1730190/2012/08/T800x600/8a9f5f8f1aae9c8a5283c9fe581751de.jpg)
I love waking up to a fact I didn't know.  :)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 13, 2018, 07:24:20 AM
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I had to look it up, but I was interested enough to do that.

Hemoglobin and Chlorophyll have similar structures. The main difference is that hemoglobin is built around iron (Fe), where as chlorophyll is built around magnesium, (Mg).  The primary function for hemoglobin is to transport oxygen from the lungs to other parts of the body.  Hemoglobin is composed of four elements- carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. All four are organized around iron. Chlorophyll is composed of the same elements, which are organized around magnesium.
Assuming animals evolved from plants or some ancestor to both, it's hard to understand the evolutionary advantage of what seems like a very simple mutation.  Chlorophyll and hemoglobin being so similar, there must be a connection of some sort.  But how does that mutation become an advantage? 

Now here's this flower happily going about manufacturing its own food, which is far more efficient than hunting and gathering.  Then one day it's DNA gets zapped by a cosmic ray, and suddenly it's making hemoglobin instead of chlorophyll.  Now it can no longer make it's own food, but it has this useless new molecule, and evolution taking a long as it does, there isn't enough time for the flower to grow arms and legs and teeth and a nervous system to run those required gadgets before it dies.

So instead of a flower, it must have been a giant sequoia, with a life span of a thousand years.  Now it has plenty of time to evolve into an ape.  Yes, I'm beginning to understand it now.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on April 13, 2018, 08:11:39 AM
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Assuming animals evolved from plants or some ancestor to both, it's hard to understand the evolutionary advantage of what seems like a very simple mutation.  Chlorophyll and hemoglobin being so similar, there must be a connection of some sort.  But how does that mutation become an advantage? 

Now here's this flower happily going about manufacturing its own food, which is far more efficient than hunting and gathering.  Then one day it's DNA gets zapped by a cosmic ray, and suddenly it's making hemoglobin instead of chlorophyll.  Now it can no longer make it's own food, but it has this useless new molecule, and evolution taking a long as it does, there isn't enough time for the flower to grow arms and legs and teeth and a nervous system to run those required gadgets before it dies.

So instead of a flower, it must have been a giant sequoia, with a life span of a thousand years.  Now it has plenty of time to evolve into an ape.  Yes, I'm beginning to understand it now.

SGOS, surely YOU are not asking me for a brief history of evolution... 

You know slight changes in DNA can make weird differences in the long term.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 13, 2018, 09:21:48 AM
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SGOS, surely YOU are not asking me for a brief history of evolution... 

You know slight changes in DNA can make weird differences in the long term.
Sorry, I just like to write absurd nonsense from time to time.  I try to make it absurd enough that people will recognize it's intentionally absurd, but I try to avoid such an extreme so that it might actually sound like something someone might say out of ignorance.

Actually, from what I just googled, it's more likely that the evolution seems to be that animals evolved to eat plants, and then evolved some mechanism that uses chlorophyll to manufacture hemoglobin.  It was not a detailed enough explanation to explain if the chlorophyll is a catalyst or a building block in the process or exactly how it is used.  The part about eating plants first and then using the chlorophyll itself is conjecture on my part.  I have no actual knowledge of the order of the evolutionary events.

Happy now?
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: trdsf on April 13, 2018, 03:40:08 PM
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SGOS, surely YOU are not asking me for a brief history of evolution... 
Well, he was talking about plant evolution, so I suppose what he was really after was a brief history of thyme...


...sorry, I *really* couldn't resist that.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 13, 2018, 07:00:12 PM
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The structure of a hemoglobin molecule is almost identical to chlorophyll, with one atom of iron, instead of manganese (or is it magnesium?).  I saw the molecule diagrams for them in biology side by side, but I noticed other structural changes besides just that one.  We must be related to plants.  Well of course we would be.

Specifically, herbivores are traitors, and carnivores are traitors of traitors ;-)

In the beginning, there was cyano-bacteria.  It evolved when the atmosphere wasn't oxygen rich like it is today.  Stromatolites were the major class of being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromatolite

They still exist in Australia.  So they did photosynthesis before the plants did it.  And produced a more oxygen rich atmosphere, necessary for more advanced life forms like plants and animals.  They produced the first mass extinction, and the greatest glacial age ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth

See, Frosty the Snowman was the creator ;-)  The earliest multicellular life evolved from a fruit flavored 7-11 Slushie that melted ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 14, 2018, 11:48:07 AM
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In the beginning, there was cyano-bacteria.  It evolved when the atmosphere wasn't oxygen rich like it is today.  Stromatolites were the major class of being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromatolite
Stromatolites!  Just the other day I was trying to remember the name of that interesting life form, one of the oldest on earth, and the exception to the rule that "all species go extinct."  Well at least they are not extinct yet.  I've heard them described as looking like cow pies, but I have never seen them, so I was happy to find this picture in your link:

Picture thanks to Ruth Ellison - Sromatolites at Lake Thetis Western Australia
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Lake_Thetis-Stromatolites-LaRuth.jpg)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 14, 2018, 03:38:23 PM
Remember, all subsequent life forms are direct or indirect parasites on the activity of the older life forms.  So basically, we are at the top of the food chain, but at the bottom of biosphere great chain of being.  All hail the master life form, the bacterial reef!  Should we lose oxygen out of the atmosphere, or acidify the oceans too much, stromatolites will once again dominate.  Other life forms, not so much.  But I think the scorpion will give it a run for its money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-gv2KPhB44

A little red-neck entertainment ;-)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on April 15, 2018, 12:55:20 AM
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Sorry, I just like to write absurd nonsense from time to time.  I try to make it absurd enough that people will recognize it's intentionally absurd, but I try to avoid such an extreme so that it might actually sound like something someone might say out of ignorance.

Actually, from what I just googled, it's more likely that the evolution seems to be that animals evolved to eat plants, and then evolved some mechanism that uses chlorophyll to manufacture hemoglobin.  It was not a detailed enough explanation to explain if the chlorophyll is a catalyst or a building block in the process or exactly how it is used.  The part about eating plants first and then using the chlorophyll itself is conjecture on my part.  I have no actual knowledge of the order of the evolutionary events.

Happy now?


Yes, I am a lot more tolerant about intelligent people who sometimes say odd things than I am about stupid people who accidentally say accurate things.  I actually do trust that you know better than to think that some plant suddenly became an animal. :)
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Cavebear on April 15, 2018, 12:57:15 AM
This post showed up on a thread where I wasn't.  Admins, check your software!
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: Baruch on April 15, 2018, 01:05:07 AM
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Yes, I am a lot more tolerant about intelligent people who sometimes say odd things than I am about stupid people who accidentally say accurate things.  I actually do trust that you know better than to think that some plant suddenly became an animal. :)

Probably not in nature, but with recombinant DNA we can mix life forms freely.
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: aitm on April 15, 2018, 12:08:53 PM
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This post showed up on a thread where I wasn't.  Admins, check your software!

I checked and checked but the more I checked on my software the harder it got.....
Title: Re: why are you an atheist?
Post by: SGOS on April 15, 2018, 12:16:46 PM
I've posted stuff to threads I never intended to post to, but this mistake has always required that I have been there.  Sometimes I've had two different threads on my desk at the same time, and end up writing in one to someone in the other.  Usually, it's because I google something to double check it's correct, then I go back to the forum and get the wrong thread.