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Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Islam => Topic started by: mauricio on August 18, 2016, 04:29:18 PM

Title: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: mauricio on August 18, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
Now cue in all the Islamists trying to make him a martyr.

News:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/anjem-choudarys-conviction-ends-years-police-cat-mouse-144100220.html

A decent opinion article:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/anjem-choudary-sought-divide-muslims-rest-us-dont-let-him-win-1576604
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: mauricio on August 18, 2016, 04:30:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymblBATxm8s
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: Baruch on August 18, 2016, 05:40:55 PM
End freedom of speech?
End freedom of religion?
Liberalism is suicide?
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: Shiranu on August 18, 2016, 05:49:40 PM
Quote from: mauricio on August 18, 2016, 04:30:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymblBATxm8s

#NotTrueMuslims
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: mauricio on August 18, 2016, 05:55:14 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 18, 2016, 05:40:55 PM
End freedom of speech?
End freedom of religion?
Liberalism is suicide?

shit is complicated. But if liberalism survives Muslim assimilation (among other things like the constant threat of corporate corruption and native authoritarians) then you will get a multicultural society which allows individual self determination while still being able to preserve itself and it's core values.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 12:08:38 AM
Q: Was Anjem Choudary preaching anything contrary to the Islamic scriptures?

A: Not at all. Everything he said is authentic, verifiable Islamic Law.

But we don't want you to know that.
Islam is peace and tolerance. That is all you need to hear.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 12:18:34 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 18, 2016, 05:49:40 PM
#NotTrueMuslims

Taqiyya.  (http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx)
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: Shiranu on August 19, 2016, 12:50:33 AM
QuoteNo, I do not think it is "whining", simply posting an article I happen to agree with.

Yep. Never bitch and whine when Muslims don't fit your agenda, they are all just part of a grand conspiracy.

Totally two different things.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 04:06:30 AM
@Shiranu

You cannot separate the ideology from the people who are holding it.
When someone criticises Islam, it is automatically hating Muslims.
You do this automatically, without a thought.
A Pavlovian reflex.

Do you do this for other ideologies, or just Islam?

I understand when Muslims do this, that's  because Islam is their identity, so for them it is a personal attack.

Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: mauricio on August 19, 2016, 04:24:07 AM
Quote from: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 12:18:34 AM
Taqiyya.  (http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx)

are you accusing the Muslims on the video of deliberately lying to protect/propagate islam?
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 05:19:01 AM
Quote from: mauricio on August 19, 2016, 04:24:07 AM
are you accusing the Muslims on the video of deliberately lying to protect/propagate islam?
Absolutely.
But it is OK, because people don't want the truth. It is too disturbing.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 05:29:01 AM
Quote from: Baruch on August 18, 2016, 05:40:55 PM
End freedom of speech?
End freedom of religion?
Liberalism is suicide?
Wherever Islam rules, there is no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion.
Liberals cannot understand that. That answers the third question.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: Shiranu on August 19, 2016, 07:22:33 AM
Quote from: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 05:19:01 AM
Absolutely.
But it is OK, because people don't want the truth. It is too disturbing.

"I'm not attacking them, I'm attacking Islam! You gotta learn to separate the two!"

---one post later---

"I am directly attacking them, but people don't want the truth!"
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 19, 2016, 07:22:33 AM
"I'm not attacking them, I'm attacking Islam! You gotta learn to separate the two!"

---one post later---

"I am directly attacking them, but people don't want the truth!"

Stating a fact doesn't mean an attack. Well, maybe to you.

Takiyya (http://thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx) (lying) is allowed in the service of Islam.  Fact.

Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah  (http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm)
QuoteThe word "Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart.

Anjem Choudary did not use takiyya. He was telling the truth about Islam.
Was he a hate preacher?  Would Islam preach hate? Emphatically, yes.

"Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" . Quran 60:4


Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: Shiranu on August 19, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
That was a nifty way to get out of saying you don't belittle Moderate Muslims... insist they are non-existent without actually saying it and implying you are only speaking "facts", when you don't know the people's reasoning at all. Of course the very act of implying they don't exist or are just religiously lying as part of a grand conspiracy instead of being just normal people who don't like extremism is in itself belittling... as is implying that you know what they mean and they don't... but ya know, whatever....
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: mauricio on August 19, 2016, 05:34:33 PM
Quote from: pr126 on August 19, 2016, 05:19:01 AM
Absolutely.
But it is OK, because people don't want the truth. It is too disturbing.

and how do you know they are lying? And I'm talking about this 2 specific Muslims in this specific interview.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: stromboli on August 19, 2016, 05:53:22 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 19, 2016, 01:50:10 PM
That was a nifty way to get out of saying you don't belittle Moderate Muslims... insist they are non-existent without actually saying it and implying you are only speaking "facts", when you don't know the people's reasoning at all. Of course the very act of implying they don't exist or are just religiously lying as part of a grand conspiracy instead of being just normal people who don't like extremism is in itself belittling... as is implying that you know what they mean and they don't... but ya know, whatever....

The problem with moderate Muslims, Shiranu, is that every Muslim is moderate until circumstances dictate otherwise. It is no different than a bunch of Puritans sitting mildly in church every Sunday until someone convinces them a witch is among them and they light torches and grab pitchforks. Distrust obliged society to put Japanese Americans into internment camps out of fear. The issue is trust- and too many otherwise moderate Muslims become radicalized by the internet or some other method.

Which is precisely what terrorists want, I realize. but the Koran still has scriptures that justify terrorist actions and there are still otherwise "peaceful" Imams and leaders like Choudary, that have radicalized Muslims and sent them to join ISIS. I get my gas at a 7-11 owned and run by a Muslim. Don't say anything bad to him, he's nice to me. But I can see a wariness in his eyes and there are people who are less than civil to him. Until there is some ironclad, hidebound guarantee that that particular fellow isn't going to strap a bomb to himself and blow up a mall, that innate distrust will always be there. So don't expect the rank and file of the U.S.A. to suddenly start giving flowers to Muslims or going out of their way to help them. Until Muslims start burning Korans by the bushel full, that aura of suspicion will remain.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: pr126 on August 20, 2016, 07:14:46 AM
Moderate Muslims for now. (Although not as many as you think they are.)

But here is something to think about. Suppose there is a full scale war breaking out, say Iran or a terrorist proxy uses a WMD.
All those moderate Muslims ( the umma) will have to chose sides. With millions in infidel countries.
Which side will they chose?
The infidel's side? I think not.
Title: Re: Islamist Anjem Choudary convicted in the UK.
Post by: Baruch on August 20, 2016, 10:28:35 AM
Quote from: pr126 on August 20, 2016, 07:14:46 AM
Moderate Muslims for now. (Although not as many as you think they are.)

But here is something to think about. Suppose there is a full scale war breaking out, say Iran or a terrorist proxy uses a WMD.
All those moderate Muslims ( the umma) will have to chose sides. With millions in infidel countries.
Which side will they chose?
The infidel's side? I think not.

This is why if the EU goes to war with Argentina (Britain already did twice) ... then all the Germans in Germany have to be killed, just in case?