Atheistforums.com

Extraordinary Claims => Religion General Discussion => Islam => Topic started by: Cocoa Beware on August 10, 2016, 04:38:08 PM

Title: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cocoa Beware on August 10, 2016, 04:38:08 PM
In the latest issue of its online magazine, Dabiq, the Islamic State (ISIS) takes umbrage at Western politicians like President Barack Obama, who like to describe ISIS’ violence as “senseless.” On the contrary, ISIS argues, there is a relentless logic and religious justification to these atrocities, but Western leaders and media are afraid to discuss it.

The opening lines of the article lay out the Islamic State’s thesis with brutal efficiency:

QuoteShortly following the blessed attack on a sodomite, Crusader nightclub by the mujahid Omar Mateen, American politicians were quick to jump into the spotlight and denounce the shooting, declaring it a hate crime, an act of terrorism, and an act of senseless violence.

A hate crime? Yes. Muslims undoubtedly hate liberalist sodomites, as does anyone else with any shred of their fitrah (inborn human nature) still intact.

An act of terrorism? Most definitely. Muslims have been commanded to terrorize the disbelieving enemies of Allah.

But an act of senseless violence? One would think that the average Westerner, by now, would have abandoned the tired claim that the actions of the mujahidin â€" who have repeatedly stated their goals, intentions, and motivations â€" don’t make sense. Unless you truly â€" and naively â€" believe that the crimes of the West against Islam and the Muslims, whether insulting the Prophet, burning the Quran, or waging war against the Caliphate, won’t prompt brutal retaliation from the mujahidin, you know full well that the likes of the attacks carried out by Omar Mateen, Larossi Aballa, and many others before and after them in revenge for Islam and the Muslims make complete sense. The only thing senseless would be fore [sic] there to be no violent, fierce retaliation in the first place!

"Mujahidin” are holy warriors. As Isis describes him, Omar Mateen is the ISIS jihadi who perpetrated mass murder at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. Larossi Abballa is the ISIS jihadi who knife-murdered a French police commander and his girlfriend in June.

ISIS explicitly accuses the Western media and political class of dismissing its actions as “senseless” violence because they are afraid of political correctness, adding that moderate imams in the Western world act from similar motives.

“The point is, people know that it’s foolish but they keep repeating it regardless, because they’re afraid of the consequences of deviating from the script,” says the Dabiq article.

ISIS then launches into a lengthy explanation of “why we hate you and why we fight you,” beginning “first and foremost” with disbelieving and disrespecting Islam.

“Just as your disbelief is the primary reason we hate you, your disbelief is the primary reason we fight you, as we have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they submit to the authority of Islam,” ISIS writes, “either by becoming Muslims, or by paying jizya â€" for those afforded this option â€" and living in humiliation under the rule of Muslims.” Jizya is the special religious tax non-believers are supposed to pay their Muslim overlords, as a sign of submission.

Secondly, ISIS says it hates the West because “your secular, liberal societies permit the very things Allah has prohibited, while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.”

“Your secular liberalism has led you to tolerate and even support ‘gay rights,’ to allow alcohol, drugs, fornication, gambling, and usury to become widespread, and to encourage the people to mock those who denounce these filthy sins and vices,” the Islamic State lectures. “As such, we wage war against you to stop you from spreading your disbelief and debauchery â€" your secularism and nationalism, your perverted liberal values, your Christianity and atheism â€" and all the depravity and corruption they entail.”

ISIS then ladles out an extra helping of hatred for atheists because, it states:

QuoteAs long as your subjects continue to mock our faith, insult the prophets of Allah â€" including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad â€" burn the Quran, and openly vilify the laws of the sharia, we will continue to retaliate, not with slogans and placards, but with bullets and knives.

The article concludes by citing “crimes against the Muslims” with drones and fighter jets, and the “invasion” of Muslim lands by Western nations, as reasons for their hatred, although ISIS takes pains to say that Western foreign policy is a “secondary” reason for their hatred.

“The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam,” ISIS writes, modestly offering to back off on its murder campaign if Western countries submit to Islam and pay the jizya tax, but insisting “we would continue to hate you” even under those circumstances.

“We fight you in order to bring you out from the darkness of disbelief into the light of Islam, and to liberate you from the constraints of living for the sake of the worldly life alone, so that you may enjoy both the blessings of the worldly life and the bliss of the Hereafter,” says the Islamic State.

“As much as some liberal journalists would like you to believe that we do what we do because we’re simply monsters with no logic behind our course of action, the fact is that we continue to wage â€" and escalate â€" a calculated war that the West thought it had ended several years ago,” asserts the Dabiq article. “We continue dragging you further and further into a swamp you thought you’d already escaped, only to realize that you’re stuck even deeper within its murky waters.”

ISIS concludes:

QuoteSo you can continue to believe that those “despicable terrorists” hate you because of your lattes and your Timberlands, and continue spending ridiculous amounts of money to try to prevail in an unwinable war, or you can accept reality and recognize that we will never stop hating you until you embrace Islam, and will never stop fighting you until you’re ready to leave the swamp of warfare and terrorism through the exits we provide, the very exits put forth by our Lord for the People of the Scripture: Islam, jizya, or â€" as a last means of fleeting respite â€" a temporary truce.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/08/02/islamic-state-explains-violence-not-senseless/

Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 10, 2016, 05:52:35 PM
Psyop or real?  Nato or Turkey/Arabia the sponsor?  Without that secret info, we know nothing about them.

There was evidence earlier that they are not even Muslims (no Quran in evidence in their campsite).
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: FaithIsFilth on August 10, 2016, 06:24:03 PM
The whole "we fight you because of your disbelief/ you don't embrace Islam" line is probably more about recruiting and making Sunni Muslims feel like they have a duty as a Muslim to fight the infidel. ISIS hates the US because they are at war with them. It's as simple as that. ISIS are right when they say that the terrorist attacks are not senseless. Why did all of those people in that Orlando nightclub have to die? Because they were drafted to die by George W Bush and Barack Obama. That's how I think of all of these terrorist attack victims. The draft is not over. They have been drafted to die by Bush and Obama. Only an idiot would think that they could screw with a bunch of countries and not suffer any consequences.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Shiranu on August 10, 2016, 08:10:23 PM
I have just a one word response...

Breitbart.

*sigh*

Are people so desperate to prove that Islam is the ultimate evil of the world that they stop using actually shitty things about Islam and start using the streaming pile of false propaganda, hate mongeing bullshit that is Breitbart knowing full well it's lies to get people riled up... Or do the people who link from there actually believe it's real?


Edit: No, I take that back, not even to prove Islam is the ultimate evil, but basically anything that Western society is suppose to hold in esteem; liberty, fraternity, equality... if it in anyway relates to those three, Brietbart has an article talking about how it is the evil of the world. I just don't even. It is like the radical Iman of the radical Western right.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Mike Cl on August 10, 2016, 09:42:14 PM
Cocoa, you are wrong.  According to the best expert of Islam and terrorism, Donald Trump, Obama is the founder of Isis.  And Hillary is the co-founder.  And just so we could fully know what he is saying, he said it over and over, in his most loved Trump manner.  Finally someone who knows the truth and what to do about it!!
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: chill98 on August 10, 2016, 10:07:01 PM
Full (alleged) ISIS document:

http://www.clarionproject.org/factsheets-files/islamic-state-magazine-dabiq-fifteen-breaking-the-cross.pdf

Special place in ISIS heart for atheists.  Pg 32:

Quote3.  In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator. You witness the extraordinarily complex makeup of created beings, and the astonishing and inexplicably precise physical laws that govern the entire universe, but insist that they all came about through randomness and that one
should be faulted, mocked, and ostracized for recognizing that the astonishing signs we witness day after day are the creation of the Wise, All-Knowing Creator and not the result of accidental occurrence. “Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?” (At-Tur 35). Your disbelief in your Creator further leads you to deny the Day of Judgment, claiming that “you only live once.” “Those who disbelieve have claimed that they will never be resurrected. Say, ‘Yes, by my Lord, you will surely be resurrected; then you will surely be informed of what you did. And that, for Allah, is easy’”
(At-Taghabun 7)


Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: SGOS on August 11, 2016, 06:31:46 AM
ISIS doesn't like anything but ISIS?  My goodness!  ISIS is what it is, and does what it does.  While I wonder about the psychological motivations behind it and how it became the manifestation of religion that it is, the thing that I'm most aware of is how it rejects freedom, fairness, and democracy.  It seems to aspire to only two alternatives, total global domination, or extinction.  It is incompatible with anything but itself.  I'm sorry they don't like us, but I don't really care about their shit that much.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Mike Cl on August 11, 2016, 08:16:35 AM
Quote from: SGOS on August 11, 2016, 06:31:46 AM
ISIS doesn't like anything but ISIS?  My goodness!  ISIS is what it is, and does what it does.  While I wonder about the psychological motivations behind it and how it became the manifestation of religion that it is, the thing that I'm most aware of is how it rejects freedom, fairness, and democracy.  It seems to aspire to only two alternatives, total global domination, or extinction.  It is incompatible with anything but itself.  I'm sorry they don't like us, but I don't really care about their shit that much.
I like your two choices.  I vote for extinction.  And while we are at it, let's add christanity, and all other organized religions.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: AllPurposeAtheist on August 11, 2016, 02:54:43 PM
It's actually the bedrock of all of the abrahamic religions, kill anyone who disagrees.. Unfortunately history is on the side of people who don't want the church controlling us all. Sorry ISIS.. THE vast majority of the human population doesn't quite agree with you..
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cocoa Beware on August 11, 2016, 05:00:52 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 10, 2016, 08:10:23 PM
I have just a one word response...

Breitbart.

A fair point, however I don't believe the article makes anything in the way of undue inference based on the words of the DABIQ article and I think the most important point is that this article indeed exists, and it means ISIS has the kind of awareness of what is going on which I believe would come as a surprise to many Westerners.

Another problem here is that I haven't seen this DABIQ article get any kind of mention by the BBC, Independent, and other left leaning publications. Instead, from these papers you will usually find examples of what ISIS thinks of us based on their own opinion, which as you might imagine are not exactly consistent with said article. Publications in general from both sides seem more then ever unreliable as a means to glean the actual truth of this particular matter. It's frustrating, and a topic for another day I suppose.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 06:49:11 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 10, 2016, 09:42:14 PM
Cocoa, you are wrong.  According to the best expert of Islam and terrorism, Donald Trump, Obama is the founder of Isis.  And Hillary is the co-founder.  And just so we could fully know what he is saying, he said it over and over, in his most loved Trump manner.  Finally someone who knows the truth and what to do about it!!

Plausible because the US and SA founded Al Qaida.  But that doesn't mean that Shrub ordered 9/11.  Germany and Japan were allies, and Japan never did what Germany asked them to do.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 06:52:31 PM
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on August 11, 2016, 02:54:43 PM
It's actually the bedrock of all of the abrahamic religions, kill anyone who disagrees.. Unfortunately history is on the side of people who don't want the church controlling us all. Sorry ISIS.. THE vast majority of the human population doesn't quite agree with you..

I choose freedom, even if that is a criminal POV.  Screw my implied enemies.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 06:54:19 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 11, 2016, 08:16:35 AM
I like your two choices.  I vote for extinction.  And while we are at it, let's add christanity, and all other organized religions.

Stalin can't agree more.  Extinction isn't an option.  How many Viet Cong have you killed today?
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Mike Cl on August 11, 2016, 08:23:52 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 06:54:19 PM
Stalin can't agree more.  Extinction isn't an option.  How many Viet Cong have you killed today?
Lost me there, Baruch--what does the Viet Cong have to do with religion???  And do they even exist any more?
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: pr126 on August 12, 2016, 12:37:53 AM
Isis is not Islamic. It has nothing to do with Islam.

It is simply the result of socio-economics, disenfranchisement, lack of jobs, colonisation, oppression, a fair response to bigotry, hatred, and Islamophobia.

Not forgetting American foreign policy going back all the way to the sixth century.

Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, and love for the infidel.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: pr126 on August 12, 2016, 05:29:57 AM
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 11, 2016, 08:23:52 PM
Lost me there, Baruch--what does the Viet Cong have to do with religion???  And do they even exist any more?

This is just one of Baruch's little irreverent quips. He thinks it is amusing. Ignore it.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2016, 06:32:54 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 11, 2016, 08:23:52 PM
Lost me there, Baruch--what does the Viet Cong have to do with religion???  And do they even exist any more?

You are the one that wants to Go Rambo all over the Mideast.  I know I guy who has deployed four times ... how many ISIS guys have you killed?  What I was saying was ... the US has lost every war since 1945 ... how are you going to help the US win one for the Gipper (yes, Ronnie is dead too).

The Viet Cong still exist, they occupied Saigon, renamed it Ho Chi Minh city, in case you have forgotten.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: pr126 on August 12, 2016, 05:29:57 AM
This is just one of Baruch's little irreverent quips. He thinks it is amusing. Ignore it.

How many Little Sambo countries has England conquered lately?  Man up or shut up.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Mike Cl on August 12, 2016, 07:15:15 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 12, 2016, 06:32:54 PM
You are the one that wants to Go Rambo all over the Mideast.  I know I guy who has deployed four times ... how many ISIS guys have you killed?  What I was saying was ... the US has lost every war since 1945 ... how are you going to help the US win one for the Gipper (yes, Ronnie is dead too).

The Viet Cong still exist, they occupied Saigon, renamed it Ho Chi Minh city, in case you have forgotten.
Baruch--when have you ever read from a post of mine that I want to 'Go Rambo all over the Mideast'!  Are your glasses failing you or are you drinking too much??????

Not only do I not want to go Rambo, I would prefer to just pull out entirely and let the Mideast sort this shit out themselves.  And yes, I do realize we have lost every war since '45.  I've said so several times.  I would really like to go back in time and remove Bush/Cheney from the face of the earth--they are the direct cause of most of the 'terrorism' that the world is facing today.  We cause this shit--and there is no way we can fix it.  We simply need to get out.

Maybe you should reread some of my posts and show me where I've said different. 

And Yes, I am fully aware that the viet cong exist in Vietnam--but not as the viet cong any more.  And yes, I know that Saigon is now Ho Chi Min City.  You are really out there on this one, my man.  Seriously, are you feeling okay?????
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 12, 2016, 07:23:43 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on August 11, 2016, 08:16:35 AM
I like your two choices.  I vote for extinction.  And while we are at it, let's add christanity, and all other organized religions.

I misread this ... my bad.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Mike Cl on August 12, 2016, 07:24:49 PM
Quote from: Baruch on August 11, 2016, 06:49:11 PM
Plausible because the US and SA founded Al Qaida.  But that doesn't mean that Shrub ordered 9/11.  Germany and Japan were allies, and Japan never did what Germany asked them to do.
Yes, I agree that the US and SA founded Al Qaida by their actions.  It is push-back from the US trying to be an empire builder.  No, Shrub did not order 9/11.  But he botched handling it, tho, and in that is one of the causes of ISIS.  Germany and Japan were not really allies--they had a partnership based on a common enemy.  It was developed so they would not attack each other or claim resources in certain parts of the world.  Germany would have turned on Japan just as it did with Russia, when the time was 'right'.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: pr126 on August 21, 2016, 10:11:47 AM
Podcast by Sam Harris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMKOV2zA9Wc
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Shiranu on August 21, 2016, 11:15:21 AM
Believe it or not, this is actually a serious question with nothing to do with discrediting or attacking a position...

Hasn't Sam Harris had a huge falling out with the atheist community, where he is no longer a spokesman, or am I mistaken?
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 21, 2016, 11:30:20 AM
DeGrasse Tyson shuns Harris.  I suppose because Harris has ventured beyond science into philosophy and advocacy .... to be the new Carl Sagan, and Tyson doesn't like the competition ;-)  I suspect the atheist community would lean toward Tyson.

Of course the video, is part of the merging of Warhol and the Internet, where everyone gets their 15 minutes of YouTube fame ;-)
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: SGOS on August 21, 2016, 11:39:50 AM
I have heard some remarks from atheists that tend to disassociate from Harris.  I've also heard such remarks about Dawkins and Hitchens, but slightly fewer such remarks.  It's odd, I've never gotten around to reading Harris, but I have read something from most of the others.  To me it's all just an articulation of my own thoughts, although usually much more literary in nature.  From what I've heard Harris say in short videos here and there, I think he makes some good points.  But talk or communicate long enough, and everyone will eventually say something that someone else will disagree with.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: GSOgymrat on August 22, 2016, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 21, 2016, 11:15:21 AM
Believe it or not, this is actually a serious question with nothing to do with discrediting or attacking a position...

Hasn't Sam Harris had a huge falling out with the atheist community, where he is no longer a spokesman, or am I mistaken?

I like Sam Harris and find he makes a lot of sense. Some people don't like him because he directly takes on Islam as "the motherload of bad ideas" and some don't like him because he discusses philosophy and spirituality. The Bill Maher interview with Sam Harris and Ben Affleck really split people regarding Harris.

https://youtu.be/vln9D81eO60

As far as the article on "Why we hate you" it seems very straightforward and philosophically coherent. This is not what all Muslims believe, much to the disappointment of the Muslim who wrote the article. I also completely understand why the author wrote it.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cocoa Beware on August 22, 2016, 11:11:53 PM
Quote from: Shiranu on August 21, 2016, 11:15:21 AM
Believe it or not, this is actually a serious question with nothing to do with discrediting or attacking a position...

Hasn't Sam Harris had a huge falling out with the atheist community, where he is no longer a spokesman, or am I mistaken?

He has said plenty of things I don't agree with, but no deal breaker in particular, and he has had a lot of his views misconstrued by his various adversaries.

But I've been listening to his podcast for while, where he has several times made it clear he does not want his audience to be an echo chamber, since it serves no real purpose. He insists that his listeners hold him accountable for what he says, which if nothing else seems fair enough.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: FaithIsFilth on August 23, 2016, 10:06:35 PM
Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 22, 2016, 10:11:11 PM
I like Sam Harris and find he makes a lot of sense. Some people don't like him because he directly takes on Islam as "the motherload of bad ideas"
This is true. Many think it's wrong to criticize Islam more than Christianity for instance, but there are only a few people like that that post here. I would say that atheists dislike him more for overstating the treat that Muslims and Islam actually pose to the West and for his downplaying US foreign policy, saying dumb stuff like George Bush and Dick Cheney had the best of intentions and just wanted to help the people of Iraq by turning Iraq into Arkansas. I think Sam knows better than that and is well aware that what he's saying is complete nonsense. Maybe Sam is just a secret neo-con and doesn't want to give his real reasons for why he supports US intervention. I mean, he can't exactly just come out and say that he thinks these wars are smart and that they are a good idea because if you don't take the geopolitical gain, the Russians will and they will benefit geopolitically rather than the US. He probably understands that coming out of the closet as a neo-con and admitting that he doesn't give a shit about Middle Eastern people dying is not something that would go over too well with the atheist community, so instead he acts like Muslims are a huge threat who could be about to get a nuke and set it off in a US city, and the US has the best interests of Middle Easterners and Africans in mind when they intervene in these countries.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: SGOS on August 24, 2016, 07:26:17 AM
His comments about Bush and Cheney are hard to fathom.  No one knows if they were social justice warriors, or just plumb stupid, evil, or exactly what their intentions were.  I have heard people who despised Bush and Cheney describe neocons as idealists (usually a term of adulation), and if you had kept up with New American Century's website, it was no secret that the neocons certainly aspired to the ideal of bringing the Mideast into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if necessary.  Their doctrine was an idealism, and while New American Century was described as a conservative intellectual think tank, sometimes even by detractors, their ignorance of human nature is mind blowing considering they were afforded the label of intellectual at all.  I suspect "intellectual" was more a label they created for themselves, and the media, just ran with it.  For so called intellectuals, they managed to plumb the depths of stupidity, and made it to national policy.

So when Harris so graciously says, "Bush and Cheney had the best of intentions, I would agree that it is quite possible.  I wouldn't hang the label of evil on either of them right away, because I don't know what their actual thought processes involved.  But evil intentions should not be ignored.  Harris gives them the benefit of that doubt. 

The reason I recoil from Harris' statement is that, while he gives them the benefit of the doubt and describes it as "best intentions," it raises serious questions about his qualifications as a skeptic.  He has no evidence to support the "best intentions" claim at all.  And I remember him making that statement without even the adjective of "probably" included.  He was declaring a statement of fact without anything to back it up.  This makes me suspicious about how much his skepticism is compromised by lack of reason when he is affected at a deeper emotional level.

My description of Harris would be a guy who makes sense, but tends to be a little sloppy in how he arrives at his conclusions.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on August 24, 2016, 06:25:53 PM
I gave Bush/Cheney the benefit of the doubt 2001- 2003 ... but after that it became clear what they were up to.

Speaking of suitcase nukes ... the DHS has put out a request for small nuclear radiation detectors to be worn by their agents everywhere ... just in case.  False flag coming up.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cavebear on October 22, 2016, 11:09:54 AM
Quote from: SGOS on August 24, 2016, 07:26:17 AM
His comments about Bush and Cheney are hard to fathom.  No one knows if they were social justice warriors, or just plumb stupid, evil, or exactly what their intentions were.  I have heard people who despised Bush and Cheney describe neocons as idealists (usually a term of adulation), and if you had kept up with New American Century's website, it was no secret that the neocons certainly aspired to the ideal of bringing the Mideast into the 21st century, kicking and screaming if necessary. 

I don't agree that Cheney et al wanted to bring the Mid East in the 21st Century.  I don't think they wanted to even bring them into the 20th.  My understanding, from spare quotes such as were caught from them unawares, is that they wanted control of the oil before the Russians got it and "WMD" was the only argument they could all agree on. 
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cavebear on October 22, 2016, 11:26:18 AM
Why ISIS hates us is a very different matter.  They hate all Europeans (and we are an extension of Europe in their view) because we are the Evil Crusaders who attacked them.  Which we did.

However, what they are too damn ignorant to understand is that THEY attacked Europe first from both East (Constantinople) and from the Southwest (Spain) after butchering their way through the existing peaceful Christian communities all across Northern Africa.  It was only their attacks (and the Vikings from the North), that turned medieval Europe into the crazed military thugs they became later for the Crusades.  The Crusades (moronic as they were) were a response to Islamist aggression.

I don't care a rotten fig's worth of difference between Christianity and Islam, but the Islamists ought to at least get their screwy history right!
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on October 22, 2016, 11:45:33 AM
Wanting to modernize the ME ... is a neo-lib thing, not a neocon thing.  Neocons just like to kill rag-heads, not modernize them.  But both the Bush and Clinton families are "all in" with the family of Ibn Saud.  That is what unites both sides of American foreign policy.  Give the Saudis anything they want (per agreement with FDR in 1944).  This is also why there must be nuclear war with Iran ... because SA and Israel.  France and Germany both agree that Russia must go ... see Napoleon's and Hitler's invasion of Russia.  This is why Washington said ... beware of foreign entanglements.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: SGOS on October 22, 2016, 12:08:32 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 22, 2016, 11:09:54 AM
I don't agree that Cheney et al wanted to bring the Mid East in the 21st Century.  I don't think they wanted to even bring them into the 20th.  My understanding, from spare quotes such as were caught from them unawares, is that they wanted control of the oil before the Russians got it and "WMD" was the only argument they could all agree on. 

I've heard the same argument, not that really effects the nation building ideal of the neocons, because it's all of the same objective.  And groups like the neocons are always going to attract the Cheneys and the Bushes, who might have different agendas, but find the umbrella group useful.

The neocon website had been advertising nation building for 15 years before 9-11, and I tend to believe them, although I've heard other arguments, specifically that Bush's agenda was to destabilize the Mideast to drive up oil prices, but of course a family of oil billionaires would never want that, right?

There will always be enough unknowns about the disaster of the Bush Administration that we could speculate forever.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on October 22, 2016, 12:53:20 PM
Yes, nation building like US history.  Move in Europeans.  Kill the natives.  Develop natural resources formerly owned by the natives.  Not at all benign ... you have a choice ... paleo-imperialism or neo-imperialism.  And it still violated General Powell's principles (not that he didn't mind violating his own principles).  No more Vietnams?  It is Vietnam, all the way down.  We and our allies doe a My Lai ever week ... but now it isn't even controversial.  Just bomb more hospitals and weddings.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: SGOS on October 22, 2016, 01:13:41 PM
Quote from: Baruch on October 22, 2016, 11:45:33 AM
Wanting to modernize the ME ... is a neo-lib thing, not a neocon thing.

I tend to think of neocons as right wingers, although I have heard the media on several occasions refer to them as "of liberal origins."  I'm not sure what that means.  Liberals?  Democrats?  Moderate Republicans?  I view them as right of mainstream Republicans.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cavebear on October 22, 2016, 10:27:28 PM
I think of them as right-wing of the right-wing for other causes the support (supply side economics for example).  But you could come at "nation-building" from the left too.  Democracy here there and everywhere.  Depends on what kind of democracy you have in mind.

And I don't think that Cheney and Bush had the same idea of democracy as I do.  Bush senior once said that he didn't think atheists were "citizens".
Title: :)
Post by: drunkenshoe on October 23, 2016, 06:28:22 AM
I cannot emphasise enough that how happy I am to hear atheists are even gradually getting rid off those jingoist, war mongering frauds. They are the number one reason responsible of dumbing down of the American Atheism. I have written about it many times, not going to bother again.

I am putting Dawkins aside with his 'scientist' role. Though that is it and that is all.




Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Baruch on October 23, 2016, 07:38:28 AM
Bringing the string up to date ... Shoe is referring to the Islamophobia of the New Atheists ... since they aren't as afraid of the Vatican, since they are too old to be choir boys ;-)

The Europeans though, are quite the warmongers themselves.  They were in favor of the intervention in Libya and Ukraine, and the ongoing intervention in Syria ... even without the US.  Some of the New Atheists are/were Europeans ... so even if the ME was pacifist, they would be in favor of invading it, because they don't like being so dependent on Russian petrochemicals.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: baronvonrort on October 25, 2016, 07:03:38 PM
Quote from: Cocoa Beware on August 11, 2016, 05:00:52 PM

Another problem here is that I haven't seen this DABIQ article get any kind of mention by the BBC, Independent, and other left leaning publications. Instead, from these papers you will usually find examples of what ISIS thinks of us based on their own opinion, which as you might imagine are not exactly consistent with said article. Publications in general from both sides seem more then ever unreliable as a means to glean the actual truth of this particular matter. It's frustrating, and a topic for another day I suppose.

A lot of quotes from the Quran and Sunnah in Dabiq and the Al Qaeda magazine called Inspire.

Apart from the Caliphate not much difference between Dabiq and Inspire magzines.

Easy to find and download online.
Title: Re: :)
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 02:04:32 AM
Quote from: drunkenshoe on October 23, 2016, 06:28:22 AM
I cannot emphasise enough that how happy I am to hear atheists are even gradually getting rid off those jingoist, war mongering frauds. They are the number one reason responsible of dumbing down of the American Atheism. I have written about it many times, not going to bother again.


Please do, I would like to hear your reasons, if only briefly presented.
Title: Re: :)
Post by: drunkenshoe on October 26, 2016, 03:59:30 PM
Quote from: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 02:04:32 AM
Please do, I would like to hear your reasons, if only briefly presented.

I don't think that is worth the time and energy considering your general outlook. The same junction point.
Title: Re: Why ISIS hates us
Post by: Cavebear on October 29, 2016, 01:58:12 AM
If you can't give reasons, you aren't really justified in presenting an opinion...