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http://communityvoiceradio.com/demolishing-the-messiah-myth/

QuoteThe traditional, “authorized” version of Christian origins is a “big bang” theory: one fine day, the only begotten son of God materialized in a virgin’s womb. He grew to manhood, assembled his acolytes, imparted his wisdom, made his redemptive sacrifice and rose again. A religion was born.

Secularized, this same big bang theory boils down to little more than, “Christianity exists, it must have begun somewhere; it began with a single character, here’s my version of who he really was.” Favorites include an itinerant philosopher in the style of the Cynics and a social/religious reformer, either a pacifist like Gandhi or a militant like Che Guevara. In fact, like recovered meat from a de-fleshed carcass, Jesus has been “re-formed” a hundred times, often as a cypher for a genuine historical character, including, among others, Julius Caesar, Judas the Galilean, John of Gamala, and Titus Caesar. The very ubiquitousness of the idea of Jesus convinces many that “someone” must lie beneath the encrusted legends.

But before we build yet another Jesus in our own image what on earth can we trust as a firm handhold? For one thing, eliminating the miraculous is not as straight-forward as you might think. For example, consider the simple matter of Jesus calling his disciples. “They left everything and followed him”, if to be understood as reportage, is in fact a miracle. In the normal world, people just don’t do that! This transforming encounter of godman with fishermen, as written in the gospel, is just as unworldly as Paul’s vision on the road to Damascus. If we regard the episode as shorthand for a protracted period of discussion and recruitment (by a merely “human” Jesus) then we begin the whole process of fabricating our own Jesus anyway.

And if a miracle is eliminated â€" for example, “the spirit driving him into the wilderness to be tested by Satan” â€" do we have any reason to suppose he went into the wilderness at all? Did he ascend a mountain if he didn’t “transfigure”? Was he by the lake if he didn’t walk on the water? Was he even at a wedding if he didn’t turn water into wine? Few of the Jesus stories make sense without the miracle that defines the encounter.

Removing miracle after miracle doesn’t leave a whole lot and yet we’ve only just begun to consider the difficulties of a “historical” Jesus.

Do the few non-miraculous episodes make any sense? “Cleansing the temple” sounds not wholly improbable until you realize that the temple had a vast concourse of thirty-five acres, enclosed by porticoes and at Passover thronging with thousands of pilgrims (and not a few temple guards). Did Jesus really â€" single-handedly â€" drive out all the moneychangers and herds of oxen, sheep and dove sellers? Can you even imagine such a thing? Would he not have been wrestled to the ground in short order? The gospels describe a berserker’s performance appropriate to a blockbuster superhero. What should we do, scale the event down to an acceptable melee â€" or recognize (correctly) that an imaginary incident has been worked up from a scriptural template (in this case, Zechariah 14.21 and Hosea 9.15)?

Even mundane and plausible-sounding details are problematic â€" for example, Luke’s “census of all the world” (as if) or Matthew’s “Slaughter of the Innocents” by Herod (not even his fellow evangelists noticed that one). A surprising number of Jesus venues (Magdala, Arimathea, Emmaus, Cana, etc.) are unknown either to archaeology or history. Even a 1st century Nazareth is in doubt (certainly, there was no “city” as claimed by the gospels). The placid Lake Tiberias (Chinnereth) is transformed into a storm-tossed Sea of Galilee so that Jesus can “calm the storm.” The trial (six distinct hearings!) is incompatible with all that we know of ancient Jewish law. The gospel portrait of Pontius Pilate is totally at odds with the evidence from other sources. And the difficulties go on and on.

It is a big mistake to think that we can simply take the gospel stories, discard the miraculous and then assemble the residue into what we may fondly believe to be “the real Jesus.”

Fabrication

Ancient testimonies quite freely weave propaganda, myth and probable fact but the gospels are a very different type of document. One oddity of the Jesus tale is its four-fold construction, presented by a deceitful Church as four unique witness statements. Blatant contradictions between the “witnesses” are waived off as “authentic” alternative viewpoints, but they are nothing of the kind.

One thing of which historians and New Testament scholars are well aware is the trajectory by which the Jesus tale developed from an original text. Matthew, Luke and even to some extent the fourth gospel, built on a brief original tale (sans miraculous birth and postmortem appearances) written at an uncertain date by an anonymous author, which Church tradition alone identifies as Mark. Matthew took this story off in one direction, correcting Mark’s “curious” errors of geography and Jewish practices, and packing the text with “prophecy”. Luke, in contrast, trawled through the works of Josephus for his tidbits of “historical accuracy.” John’s Jesus is so different from the hero of the synoptics that he has a completely incompatible “biography.”

Whatever else, eye-witness testimonies they are not and the tendentious story was all but unknown until the second half of the second century.

Aware of these difficulties, New Testament scholars posit a multiplicity of “traditions” that preceded the gospel tales. And what do these earlier traditions tell us of Jesus?

Pauline Christianity, with its emphasis on the “Risen Christ”, has an all but total lack of reference to a human Jesus and is a very different animal from the Christianity of the “Pillars” in Jerusalem. Paul himself castigates several rival factions, including those who followed John the Baptizer, not Jesus. And this, before we step outside the parameters of traditional Christianity.

Though the New Testament fails to acknowledge even their existence, the Essenes, one of Josephus’ four sects of the Jews, anticipated Christianity in a number of respects. The Therapeuts of Egypt (described in detail by Philo, though he made not a single reference to Jesus or Christianity) were hailed by Church historian Eusebius as “early Christian monks”, yet they were widely established well before the opening of the Christian era! The Gnostics, a wide variety of esoteric fraternities, far from originating as heretics in the second century, were certainly active before orthodoxy got its boots on and generally held that that their god could never have taken human form. Among them were the Docetae, sectarians that vexed Paul by denying a Jesus “in the flesh.” What’s very clear is that completely divergent forms of Christianity (or rather, proto-Christianities) were already widespread before Jesus took up his staring role.

And if a “Christian” movement existed before its purported eponymous founder, what then are we to make of the thinly drawn “life of Jesus” which certainly appears to owe an extraordinary amount to Jewish scriptural precedents â€" whether drawn from Adam, Moses, Enoch, Melchizedek, Elijah, Elisha, et al â€" collectively, a vast anticipation of the words and deeds of Jesus? Let one instant stand for many: on the south side of the Hill of Moreh, Elisha raised the only son of an old woman (2 Kings 4.32,35); on the north side of the same hill Jesus also raised the only son of an old woman (Luke 7.11,15). Do we buy into the Christian apologetic of “fulfillment” when a simple “copying” explains the same? In fact, we know that Christian scribes trawled through Jewish scripture (the Greek Septuagint at that) for proof of their godman, but they were seeking not confirmation but inspiration!

What are we to make of the multitude of parallels to Jesus lore to be found in ancient world mythology? One enormous train of coincidences? I don’t think so.

Even the embarrassed Church Fathers spoke of diabolical mimicry. It seems that Satan himself understood the true message of the Jewish prophets and was thus able to preempt Christianity centuries before the arrival of Jesus. And if the Devil could read the prophets and construct a Jesus or two could not Christian scribes do precisely the same?

The fact is, we have absolutely no trace or mention of Jesus’ exploits anywhere until the gospels were written decades after the purported events. Desperate to penetrate the primordial fog, some scholars strive to identify an early “layer” of teaching said to derive from the mouth of an historical Jesus. But does a “sayings tradition” (as in the Gospel of Thomas) really point to a single author of wise words? The Bible itself provides an answer. We have a sayings collection in the Book of Proverbs (attributed to Solomon) and another in the Book of Psalms (attributed to David). Neither accreditation is historically valid; rather, we know it was standard practice in the ancient world to lend authority and prestige to new material by falsely accrediting a prestigious figure from the past (even, as in this case, to personages who are historically dubious!) But even more fatal to the claim of a “sayings tradition” is the patent failure of anyone to record any of the supposed astounding new teachings at the time! If “great multitudes” throughout Syria, Galilee, the Decapolis, and Judea heard and believed, how odd that not one recorded those sparkling gems of wisdom! Not even Paul, the great proselytizer, quotes his Lord, but instead habitually turns to Jewish scripture for divine endorsement!

Below Critical Mass

If we still insist on some sort of flesh-and-blood progenitor we now run into another difficulty.

A Jesus who did nothing of consequence and said nothing of consequence would not have been the catalyst for a religious revolution.

A nonentity of a Jesus, even a gifted carpenter, simply could not have inspired an overturning of established belief systems that had held sway for centuries, if not millennia. A minimalist Jesus (and in fact there were hundreds of men of that name!) obliges us to look elsewhere to explain the religious sea change.

The truth is that Christianity grew from neither a god nor a man but out of what had gone before; a human Jesus was no more necessary than was a human Horus, Dionysos, Mithras, Attis, etc. Can we explain the emergence of Christianity without its humanoid superstar? Of course we can. Christianity, like all religious movements, was born from myth-making and many currents fed the myth, including astrological speculation, pagan salvation cults, Hellenistic hero worship, and the imperial cult itself, manufactured at precisely the “time of Jesus”, with its own sacrificed saviour (Divus Iulius), its own gospel of a son of god (Res Gestae Divi Augusti), its own priests and temples, established in the very same urban centres which later witnessed the emergence of early Christianity. In its various rival incarnations the Christian movement languished for two centuries. Thanks to civil war it got its big chance and finally triumphed in an omnibus edition of all that had gone before, the ultimate product of ancient religious syncretism.

Also an excellent short video. I bookmarked this, you might also. A very concise argument.

QuoteCan we explain the emergence of Christianity without its humanoid superstar? Of course we can. Christianity, like all religious movements, was born from myth-making and many currents fed the myth, including astrological speculation, pagan salvation cults, Hellenistic hero worship, and the imperial cult itself, manufactured at precisely the “time of Jesus”, with its own sacrificed saviour (Divus Iulius), its own gospel of a son of god (Res Gestae Divi Augusti), its own priests and temples, established in the very same urban centres which later witnessed the emergence of early Christianity. In its various rival incarnations the Christian movement languished for two centuries. Thanks to civil war it got its big chance and finally triumphed in an omnibus edition of all that had gone before, the ultimate product of ancient religious syncretism.

I've read that Roman polytheism was in decline before Christianity ever existed and that Roman people were attracted to various foreign religions and particularly, towards monotheism.  In the words of Aurellian, "one faith, one empire".  Judaism was a strong monotheist religion, but was not particularly well-liked because of the Jewish-Roman wars.  If only it were altered to make conversion easy, get rid of a lot of the detested rules, and throw in some familiar divi filius - I could really see that catching on.

Quote from: Hydra009 on June 28, 2016, 02:03:34 AM
I've read that Roman polytheism was in decline before Christianity ever existed and that Roman people were attracted to various foreign religions and particularly, towards monotheism.  In the words of Aurellian, "one faith, one empire".  Judaism was a strong monotheist religion, but was not particularly well-liked because of the Jewish-Roman wars.  If only it were altered to make conversion easy, get rid of a lot of the detested rules, and throw in some familiar divi filius - I could really see that catching on.

And not require circumcision.  Conversion not by conviction, but by your overlord's choice and the priest waving his magic wand.

Scholars in history of religion, are well aware of why ordinary people (as opposed to the overlord or priest) wanted to move away from paganism.  And with Aristotle, any major change would be a change for the better ... teleologically speaking.  But Edward Gibbon says they were wrong.  Christianity emasculates nations and empires ... and Nietzsche agreed.

There is a simple logic to the creation of monotheism when seen in retrospect. Multiple gods create confusion between followers, monotheism is a concatenation of the different attributes of gods into one god, possessing all of the attributes. My god is bigger than your god(s). It provides and easy justification for the actions pursuant from the creation of the religion. Burn the library of Alexandria because Paganist ideas reside therein.

One point made by the article is that the elements of what became Christianity were all there prior to the "advent" of JC. Wasn't actually a difficult metamorphosis, but almost an inevitable event. The holy Roman empire by that same logic was almost inevitable. What started as the justification for empire became the empire. Religion is politics. Catholicism/Christianity and Islam have greater staying power than the conquerors that brought it in the first place.

Genghis Khan was on of the great generals in history, but his empire became fractured and fell into separate pieces not long after his death. Genghis Khan was notably tolerant of religion in the different countries he conquered. Alexander likewise, his conquests quickly fractured into nation states that in some cases were ruled by his generals- Ptolemy in Egypt, for example. Had they brought with them a belief system based on monotheism, their empires might well have lasted much longer. Charlemagne figured it out. so did Muhammad.

Good stuff!

In the end.......................what does it matter though?  Belief is the opposite of thinking; putting these or other arguments before believers is just casting pearls before swine, or Chump or Billary supporters for that matter. 

All you'll get back is; It doesn't matter, I don't care (unsaid: because I believe).

Grandma DID get run over by a reindeer; you know.  .)

Yeah but grandma was bad. She deserved it.

Quote from: stromboli on June 28, 2016, 03:05:13 PM
Yeah but grandma was bad. She deserved it.

Few people know about the second list Santa keeps. His hit list.

(http://animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Shop--ToDo/Activism/xmasday10.jpg)

He sees you when you're sleeping. So be good, for goodness sake!

Ain't afraid of no fucking reindeer. But them elves bro, them elves....

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/91/07/21/910721a867f691818297206f06b53000.jpg)

Mankind was never given the tools to solve the God mystery, much like a chimp can never learn 5 languages. I am always sceptical when someone has "found God" because in my case it was the reverse. 

Quote from: freetodecide on October 11, 2016, 11:18:57 PM
Mankind was never given the tools to solve the God mystery, much like a chimp can never learn 5 languages. I am always sceptical when someone has "found God" because in my case it was the reverse. 

As Woody Allen said in one of his movies, "God doesn't play dice with the Universe.  It's more like he plays hide and seek."  Not everyone finds God.  He is apparently hiding, and those that do find him, can't prove they found him.  Nor can they show you where he hides.  Finding God, as far as I can tell is more like an insight or a brain fart.  Sometimes it's a just a bald faced lie.  You say you found him, because you don't want to have people think you are not up to the task or think you are mentally challenged like a retarded person.  If you say you never found him, it freaks people out.  Atheists understand that.  You might as well just say, "Fuck you." 

How does science explain a miracle? The human mind cannot conceive eternity and the physical evidence is, that both time and space are eternal. Churches are almost always flawed because of greed, lust, or power.
Islam can easily be dismissed because of plagiarism from the Bible and Torah and the blood lust of mohammed.
Cults like Mormanism are driven by the 10% tithe, the big evangelical churches are cashing in on the gullible and a tax free status. 
Atheism cannot exist on it's own, because it needs to bash religion to justify it's existence.
My experiences have taught me not to limit God to the power of my own mind, as he is full of surprises.
 

Write an introduction before you post more.

That G-d is bigger (how big?) is why there are two words, transcendent and immanent ... not just immanent.

Be careful not to define theological terms in materialist ways.  Einstein or Feynman is the god of physics (for some).  Jew idolatry is ... silly.

If you encounter G-d, then the physics is immaterial ;-)

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 03:29:06 AM
How does science explain a miracle? The human mind cannot conceive eternity and the physical evidence is, that both time and space are eternal. Churches are almost always flawed because of greed, lust, or power.
Islam can easily be dismissed because of plagiarism from the Bible and Torah and the blood lust of mohammed.
Cults like Mormanism are driven by the 10% tithe, the big evangelical churches are cashing in on the gullible and a tax free status. 
Atheism cannot exist on it's own, because it needs to bash religion to justify it's existence.
My experiences have taught me not to limit God to the power of my own mind, as he is full of surprises.
 

The big bang theory suggests that space and time began approximately 13.8 billion years ago in the absence of space and time.  I don't think there is anything we know of that can be measured regarding whether it comes to an end.  But the beginning can be calculated by studying the physical evidence.  To be eternal, space and time would have to go both forward and back infinitely, but it doesn't seem to go back infinitely.  But does it go forward infinitely?  I don't think we know that.

But this is irrelevant to the existence of a god.  Gods are best understood as creations of man's imagination.  There is no physical evidence we can measure to indicate they are anything other than imaginary concepts designed to fit them into our perception of reality.  In order to do this they must be logically inconsistent.  Sometimes gods are proposed to be everywhere.  At other times they are proposed to be outside of space and time.  They are everywhere, and at the same time nowhere, residing in reality or outside of it, whichever happens to be the most convenient argument to explain away an inconsistency at a specific time.  Eventually, as an act of desperation, the inconsistencies are explained away by defining gods as incomprehensible to man, while still maintaining that they are understood well enough to describe their personalities, quirks, and detailed plans for mankind, and the methods they use to punish man for sins.  Which of course weakens the argument from incomprehensibility, because no one can know something unknowable.

To deal with this inconsistency, man imagines the existence of prophets and special messengers who have special abilities that allow them bring mankind urgent communications from the gods.  But there is no way to identify these special messengers.  They must be taken at their word, because there is nothing they say which can verify that they are who they say they are, or that what they are doing is actually what they claim it is.

If the big bang could be proven, which it cannot, than it also lends itself to being a miracle, something created out of nothing.
The big question is, what happens to the mind when the body perishes?
The worrying part for an atheist should be, that maybe the mind lives on. rev9.6 "They shall seek death and not find it"
The real testimony as to the validity of Jesus comes through the Holy Spirit, which also is the only unforgivable sin, through experiencing and than denying this witness.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 09:12:45 PM
If the big bang could be proven, which it cannot,

When nearly 100% of experts in physics agree that the Big Bang happened, I pretty much consider it proven. Unless you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than them. In which case, please offer your scientifically supported evidence for your alternative explanation for the origin of the universe and take your Nobel Peace prize.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 09:12:45 PMthan it also lends itself to being a miracle, something created out of nothing.

The universe emerging from the singularity is not exactly creation from nothing. There are explanations of where the energy came from. The idea that some intelligent creator was involved, however, is not taken seriously because it is not a necessary explanation. Just like Zeus is no longer necessary to explain lightning, as scientific knowledge increases, the necessity for the god explanation to explain the unknowable shrinks.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 09:12:45 PMThe big question is, what happens to the mind when the body perishes?

Well, since the brain is what creates the mind, I think the result of the brain ceasing to function is pretty self-explanatory. Granted, I humor the thought that the world is created by the mind; an idea referred to as "solipsism." However, I would not try and justify that idea as if any amount of logic trumps real-world experience.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 09:12:45 PMThe worrying part for an atheist should be, that maybe the mind lives on. rev9.6 "They shall seek death and not find it"
The real testimony as to the validity of Jesus comes through the Holy Spirit, which also is the only unforgivable sin, through experiencing and than denying this witness.

Yes. Your God is a prick who demands worship while hiding himself so well that any rational thinking person would doubt his existence, and then punishes them for not worshiping him with eternal torture. Sounds like a swell guy who totally deserves our admiration.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 09:12:45 PM
If the big bang could be proven, which it cannot, than it also lends itself to being a miracle, something created out of nothing.
The big question is, what happens to the mind when the body perishes?
The worrying part for an atheist should be, that maybe the mind lives on. rev9.6 "They shall seek death and not find it"
The real testimony as to the validity of Jesus comes through the Holy Spirit, which also is the only unforgivable sin, through experiencing and than denying this witness.

There are so many assumptions in your short statement.  And so many attempts to explain the unknown--to make it known.  That may be understandable.  But it is also just wrong.  The big bang came from nothing?  How do you know that?  What if black holes, which sucks in all the surrounding energy of that part of space, gather so much and then separates from this universe?  That is more plausible than god did it.  Your big question is not my, even little, question.  The mind simply stops--just as your body does.  And that is it.  As an atheist I don't 'worry' about the end of my life.  It will end and that is that.  What you should worry about is whether Jesus was even a real person.  I assert he was not, but is simply a fiction; which is not such a stretch since his father, god, is also a fiction.  I don't 'worry' what a fiction has to offer me or not offer me.  The holy spirit is simply part of the fiction and is as real as god is.  And I could care less what your fiction calls a sin of any kind.  Your sin is a fiction as well.  And I know why your fiction is so popular for it answers those unknowns that we all face.  But theists seem to lack the courage to face life and death as they really are and not as they wish it to be.

Welcome, freetodecide. You need to start an introduction thread, before you start derailing topics. That being said, the brevity of your posts is appreciated. I'll try to be equally concise.

Quote from: freetodecideMankind was never given the tools to solve the God mystery, much like a chimp can never learn 5 languages.

The “God mystery” is manufactured by mankind, and very easy to solve: we made him up.

Quote from: freetodecideI am always sceptical when someone has "found God" because in my case it was the reverse.

So God found you. Did he lose you at the supermarket, and come back for you later? Maybe someone should call Child Protective Services on him.

Quote from: freetodecideHow does science explain a miracle?

The square root of negative evidence equals God.

Quote from: freetodecideThe human mind cannot conceive eternity and the physical evidence is, that both time and space are eternal.

And yet here you are, talking about the concept of eternity, which you can't conceive.

Quote from: freetodecideChurches are almost always flawed because of greed, lust, or power.

If it weren't for churches keeping the tradition alive, you probably never would have heard of Christ.

Quote from: freetodecideIslam can easily be dismissed because of plagiarism from the Bible and Torah and the blood lust of mohammed.

Christianity can easily be dismissed, because its foundation is built on the stories of Genesis, which are obvious myths.

Quote from: freetodecideCults like Mormanism are driven by the 10% tithe, the big evangelical churches are cashing in on the gullible and a tax free status.

Yep.

Quote from: freetodecideAtheism cannot exist on it's own, because it needs to bash religion to justify it's existence.

Don't confuse atheism with anti-theism.

Quote from: freetodecideMy experiences have taught me not to limit God to the power of my own mind, as he is full of surprises.

My experiences have taught me not to limit the curiosity of my own mind, to the power of God, as he is a primitive explanation for anything unknown.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 13, 2016, 09:12:45 PM
If the big bang could be proven, which it cannot, than it also lends itself to being a miracle, something created out of nothing.
The big question is, what happens to the mind when the body perishes?
The worrying part for an atheist should be, that maybe the mind lives on. rev9.6 "They shall seek death and not find it"
The real testimony as to the validity of Jesus comes through the Holy Spirit, which also is the only unforgivable sin, through experiencing and than denying this witness.

You are almost correct ... keep up the seeking, and you will find.  But beware of the leven of the Pharisees ... Gentile Pharisees.

"Christianity can easily be dismissed, because its foundation is built on the stories of Genesis, which are obvious myths."

Not just because Genesis is the first book (in a Bible that didn't exist as such until after the 1st century CE).  Kabbalah masters contemplating Genesis mostly ... and a few contemplating Ezekiel (source of apocalypse literature).  Creative madrash that went too far for the rabbis, in several respects.  It was the rabbis who first wanted to close the Jewish scripture canon ... after the destruction of Jerusalem, not before.  Christians didn't think of closing the Christian scripture canon until after the challenge of Marcion, around 150 CE ... and that was still an active debate until the late 4th century CE.  See the Gospel of Mary for a scenario of such contemplation of a heavenly Jesus, and the Gospel of Thomas for what revelation initially consisted in (aphorisms, not imaginary hagiography).

I have out grown myths myself, but they serve their purpose in educating the young ... though some of us want to toss out childhood entirely.  And I am enjoying returning as a mature adult, to Greek myths/literature that I first read about when I was 6.  The reading experience isn't just the book, it is the combination of the book and the person reading it.  I am and am not, the same person I was 54 years ago.

Your science buddies promised unprecedented DROUGHTS about 7-8 years ago and desalination plants were built in Australia on the basis of this hypothesis. We are getting record FLOODS.
I am calling "bullshit" on the big bang and the morons that pedal it. 

Your logic is unassailable. The weatherman was wrong: therefore science is for morons.

Smart people, on the other hand, get their knowledge and predictions from God's big book of indisputable facts.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 14, 2016, 07:29:20 AM
Your science buddies promised unprecedented DROUGHTS about 7-8 years ago and desalination plants were built in Australia on the basis of this hypothesis. We are getting record FLOODS.
I am calling "bullshit" on the big bang and the morons that pedal it.

Of course you are calling 'bullshit' on science.  That requires you to deal with facts and thinking and it is so much easier for you to simply believe something; no thinking required. 

Desalinization plants are more likely a way to deal with Australia's normally arid environment and drought conditions.   

Quote from: freetodecide on October 14, 2016, 07:29:20 AM
Your science buddies promised unprecedented DROUGHTS about 7-8 years ago and desalination plants were built in Australia on the basis of this hypothesis. We are getting record FLOODS.
I am calling "bullshit" on the big bang and the morons that pedal it.

I happen to agree that scientists are false prophets.  All prophets are con artists.  So it isn't just scientists ;-)

The only thing stopping a atheist from becoming a ardent supporter of Jesus, is a "road to Damascus" type conversion.
This is unlikely to happen with a closed mind and heart.
Science makes assumptions when it lacks physical evidence.
An atheist has the arrogance to suggest, that a creative mind must have formed from chemical reactions and not a creator.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 14, 2016, 09:37:16 PM
The only thing stopping a atheist from becoming a ardent supporter of Jesus, is a "road to Damascus" type conversion.
This is unlikely to happen with a closed mind and heart.
Science makes assumptions when it lacks physical evidence.
An atheist has the arrogance to suggest, that a creative mind must have formed from chemical reactions and not a creator.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/bU2tjufI1GOOs/giphy.gif)

Hey, genius. This "road to Damascus" conversion you're talking about...who did it happen to? Saul? And what was he doing on the road to Damascus? Was it contemplating the possibility that the Christians were right with an open mind and heart? Nope. He was on his way to drag Christians out into the streets to be stoned to death. If God had not appeared to Saul, he would not have been converted. Now I ask you, why the hell doesn't God show himself to ANYONE ELSE? Few skeptics would remain if God actually did ANYTHING to show that he exists. Instead, he chooses to hide himself, and idiot Christians try to blame the skeptics, because apparently you have to believe in order for God to show himself to you. Do you not see how painfully idiotic that sounds?

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 14, 2016, 10:18:46 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/bU2tjufI1GOOs/giphy.gif)

Hey, genius. This "road to Damascus" conversion you're talking about...who did it happen to? Saul? And what was he doing on the road to Damascus? Was it contemplating the possibility that the Christians were right with an open mind and heart? Nope. He was on his way to drag Christians out into the streets to be stoned to death. If God had not appeared to Saul, he would not have been converted. Now I ask you, why the hell doesn't God show himself to ANYONE ELSE? Few skeptics would remain if God actually did ANYTHING to show that he exists. Instead, he chooses to hide himself, and idiot Christians try to blame the skeptics, because apparently you have to believe in order for God to show himself to you. Do you not see how painfully idiotic that sounds?

Skeptics play a large part in mankind's failure.  For God to work his love, everyone has to believe.  Ever go to a gathering where a spiritualist talks to the dead?  If a doubter is present, even if he makes no comment, the dead will refuse to respond.  Everyone has to believe.  For children to fly, Peter Pan must turn to the audience and get a commitment from them that they also believe children can fly, and only then to they begin to fly around.  Skeptics act as brakes that keep wonderful things from happening.

Quote from: SGOS on October 14, 2016, 10:30:13 PM
Skeptics play a large part in mankind's failure.  For God to work his love, everyone has to believe.  Ever go to a gathering where a spiritualist talks to the dead?  If a doubter is present, even if he makes no comment, the dead will refuse to respond.  Everyone has to believe.  For children to fly, Peter Pan must turn to the audience and get a commitment from them that they also believe children can fly, and only then to they begin to fly around.  Skeptics act as brakes that keep wonderful things from happening.

Man, if this were actually true I would have become a Lycan years ago.

I try to keep it simpler for Christians (since that is who I am mostly surround by). Can they give me a single shred of evidence that Jesus even ever existed?

Quote from: Cavebear on October 15, 2016, 08:07:09 AM
I try to keep it simpler for Christians (since that is who I am mostly surround by). Can they give me a single shred of evidence that Jesus even ever existed?

Yes, the Holy Spirit is the divine messenger and he speaks to the believer. John 14:17   

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 04:33:49 AM
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the divine messenger and he speaks to the believer. John 14:17   

No, that's an assertion. A claim at best; can you substantiate it?

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 04:33:49 AM
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the divine messenger and he speaks to the believer. John 14:17   

True identity is only possible in unparalleled acceptance.  Deepac Chopra     http://wisdomofchopra.com/

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 04:33:49 AM
Yes, the Holy Spirit is the divine messenger and he speaks to the believer. John 14:17   

Oh yeah, the Tooth Fairy have sex all the time, for I am a true believer!  Gotcha!

"When ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise" The game breaker will always be the Holy Spirit because he defies intellect, which is foolishness unto God. Why should God reveal himself to unbelievers? That is what the romans demanded; "Take yourself down from the cross if you are the real God"
I was once a sceptic, but I never closed my heart and mind to the possibility of an eternal God.
Now the evidence has been presented to me, I choose to share it with whomever may be interested.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 05:47:51 PM
"When ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise" The game breaker will always be the Holy Spirit because he defies intellect, which is foolishness unto God.

That is the key right there.  It is so much easier to be ignorant and then to revel in it; thinking and reasoning is just so much harder.  Yep--theists are stupid and make a virtue of it.

Quote from: Solomon Zorn on October 14, 2016, 09:26:06 AM
Your logic is unassailable. The weatherman was wrong: therefore science is for morons.

Smart people, on the other hand, get their knowledge and predictions from God's big book of indisputable facts.

Paid Scientists could not be trusted with a very short term prediction, yet atheists give credence to a 13 billion year old hunch.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 16, 2016, 06:00:18 PM
That is the key right there.  It is so much easier to be ignorant and then to revel in it; thinking and reasoning is just so much harder.  Yep--theists are stupid and make a virtue of it.

Like I said, the Holy Spirit is the "game breaker," otherwise it becomes like a soccer player and a rugby player arguing about the shape of the ball.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 10:14:28 PM
Like I said, the Holy Spirit is the "game breaker," otherwise it becomes like a soccer player and a rugby player arguing about the shape of the ball.

Yeah, that old Holy Spirit is pretty good.  But, from my experience, The Tooth Fairy, or The Invisible Pink Unicorn are more dependable. 

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 09:44:49 PM
Paid Scientists could not be trusted with a very short term prediction, yet atheists give credence to a 13 billion year old hunch.

I don't trust scientists either, but I trust the Pope even less.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 16, 2016, 05:47:51 PM
"When ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise" The game breaker will always be the Holy Spirit because he defies intellect, which is foolishness unto God. Why should God reveal himself to unbelievers? That is what the romans demanded; "Take yourself down from the cross if you are the real God"
I was once a sceptic, but I never closed my heart and mind to the possibility of an eternal God.
Now the evidence has been presented to me, I choose to share it with whomever may be interested.

Ah, but the people here are not interested in your testimony.  But don't take it personally.  Aren't you dishonest?  Aren't you trying to get brownie points with G-d for evangelism?

Quote from: Baruch on October 16, 2016, 11:12:04 PM
Ah, but the people here are not interested in your testimony.  But don't take it personally.  Aren't you dishonest?  Aren't you trying to get brownie points with G-d for evangelism?

If that was the goal I would go for Mormonism, as they have different levels of celestial happiness.
Why is it that discussing God with an atheist, is like debating with the devil?
Remember that line, "the devils greatest achievement has been convincing man that God doesn't exist"

Wow, you can't even correctly quote, "The Usual Suspects" most iconic line and you expect to be taken seriously?

Say Mr. "Holier than thou Aren't"...

Quote“…even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.” (2 Corinthians 11:14â€"15)

You seem a bit over the top in your righteousness... how do I know the bringing up of the devil wasn't your guilty conscious?

Quote from: freetodecide on October 17, 2016, 03:02:33 AM
Remember that line, "the devils greatest achievement has been convincing man that God doesn't exist"

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg)


"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.”

He. As in the Devil. Not "HE" as in God.

And he hasn't done a good job. I know he exists. He's nice. We golf every other Sunday.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 17, 2016, 03:02:33 AM
If that was the goal I would go for Mormonism, as they have different levels of celestial happiness.
Why is it that discussing God with an atheist, is like debating with the devil?
Remember that line, "the devils greatest achievement has been convincing man that God doesn't exist"

There is only one G-d, there is no Devil, or G-d is the Devil.  Why are people against arithmetic?  Monotheism means 1 god.  Or do you believe in fallen angels, archangels, etc.  In angelology of old, John the Baptist is a descended watcher named Sandalphon and Jesus is a descended watcher named Metatron ... but not nephelim ... John the Baptist and Jesus were celibate.  The Devil and his trumps aren't celibate, they like human women.  So do I ... so I must be Trumped ;-)

Quote from: freetodecide on October 17, 2016, 03:02:33 AM
If that was the goal I would go for Mormonism, as they have different levels of celestial happiness.
Why is it that discussing God with an atheist, is like debating with the devil?
Remember that line, "the devils greatest achievement has been convincing man that God doesn't exist"

At least when talking to an atheist you are talking to a real entity.  Your god, jesus or the devil are all fictions.  You may as well be talking to Bugs Bunny.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 17, 2016, 04:16:43 AM
Wow, you can't even correctly quote, "The Usual Suspects" most iconic line and you expect to be taken seriously?

Never watched the movie, whilst mocking God many atheists take on devils advocate, but he shouldn't exist according to their flawed logic.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 17, 2016, 04:52:40 PM
Never watched the movie, whilst mocking God many atheists take on devils advocate, but he shouldn't exist according to their flawed logic.

How can one 'mock' god????  That's like being worried somebody will mock Bugs Bunny!  And the devil is simply a fiction (and in that fiction, the devil is a product of god anyway.).  You do get carried away by your fictions, don't you?

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2016, 05:31:02 PM
How can one 'mock' god????  That's like being worried somebody will mock Bugs Bunny!  And the devil is simply a fiction (and in that fiction, the devil is a product of god anyway.).  You do get carried away by your fictions, don't you?

You try and close the debate with nonsense, start looking at a plan b worst case scenario, my job is not to fight with atheists but to warn them of pending doom.
Noah was a fool up until the rain came.
Since you don't believe in a loving God, open your eyes, the world is preparing for war.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 17, 2016, 03:02:33 AM
If that was the goal I would go for Mormonism, as they have different levels of celestial happiness.
Why is it that discussing God with an atheist, is like debating with the devil?
Remember that line, "the devils greatest achievement has been convincing man that God doesn't exist"

I'd say that God does a good enough job convincing people he doesn't exist. He created the world 6000 years ago, yet left evidence that the earth was around for 4.543 billion years, and that the universe is 13.8 billion years old. He created the dinosaurs and mankind on the same day, yet there are no human fossils as old as the dinosaurs' or any dinosaur fossils as young as the human fossils. Out of all the civilizations in the world, he chose the Hebrews to communicate with exclusively rather than any of the further developed civilizations which would have done a better job spreading his religion. Now he communicates exclusively through a 2000 year old collection of books that are so barbaric, they hold virtually no relevance to modern society. He doesn't answer prayers, scientists can't find any trace of his influence, and it's like he's playing a global game of hide-and-seek, only if you don't succeed in finding him, he sends you to burn in hell for all of eternity. But remember, he loves you!

Quote from: freetodecide on October 17, 2016, 09:55:57 PM
You try and close the debate with nonsense, start looking at a plan b worst case scenario, my job is not to fight with atheists but to warn them of pending doom.
Noah was a fool up until the rain came.
Since you don't believe in a loving God, open your eyes, the world is preparing for war.

Aren't you just the most knowledgeable sage around?! You just have your hand on the pulse of the  universe, don't you??  Of course you do.

In case you haven't noticed it, but I don't think a loving god, an evil god, or any god exists or existed.  I don't think any god exists.  And your job is to warn us poor blind atheists ??  Who gave you this fun job?  Let me guess--your fictional god!  Of course. 

The world is preparing for war?  My, but you just cannot be fooled can you?!  For the past 2000 years name me a year in which there wasn't a war somewhere in the world.  The world is always preparing for war.  There has always been death, destruction, pestilence, famine and poverty.  Always.  Except that today these is less of it than ever before.  I look around and I don't see doom.  I see a bright future.  And your fictional god will not help; has never helped in the past and won't start now. 

Quote from: Blackleaf link=topic=10368.msg1150944#msg1150944 date=Now he communicates exclusively through a 2000 year old collection of books that are so barbaric, they hold virtually no relevance to modern society. He doesn't answer prayers, scientists can't find any trace of his influence, and it's like he's playing a global game of hide-and-seek, only if you don't succeed in finding him, he sends you to burn in hell for all of eternity. But remember, he loves you!

He loves you. He loves you and he needs your money.

Rip George Carlin.

But to be fair, blackleaf. He also communicates through mold, grilled cheese sandwiches and the likes... The evidence is there!

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 17, 2016, 11:56:07 PM
Aren't you just the most knowledgeable sage around?! You just have your hand on the pulse of the  universe, don't you??  Of course you do.

In case you haven't noticed it, but I don't think a loving god, an evil god, or any god exists or existed.  I don't think any god exists.  And your job is to warn us poor blind atheists ??  Who gave you this fun job?  Let me guess--your fictional god!  Of course. 

The world is preparing for war?  My, but you just cannot be fooled can you?!  For the past 2000 years name me a year in which there wasn't a war somewhere in the world.  The world is always preparing for war.  There has always been death, destruction, pestilence, famine and poverty.  Always.  Except that today these is less of it than ever before.  I look around and I don't see doom.  I see a bright future.  And your fictional god will not help; has never helped in the past and won't start now.

Your job as an atheist is to demolish the so called messiah myth which has endured 2000 years, the best you can come up with is bugs bunny!

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 04:52:08 PM
Your job as an atheist is to demolish the so called messiah myth which has endured 2000 years, the best you can come up with is bugs bunny!

My 'job' is not defending my atheism.  I don't care if you accept the way I think or not.  Who hands out these 'jobs' anyway????  And I suggest that Bugs Bunny is as real as your set of fictional characters.  If length of time for a belief to have been around is your measurement of truth,  why are you not a Buddhist?

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 04:52:08 PMYour job as an atheist is to demolish the so called messiah myth which has endured 2000 years

Buddha, Vishnu, and Amaterasu would like a word with you.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 18, 2016, 06:57:29 PM
Buddha, Vishnu, and Amaterasu would like a word with you.

Nothing beats the best selling bible, not written for everyone of course, but the word comes alive through the spirit so it speaks to the meek and the humble. Atheists that fit this persona and seek truth, my advise will always be, to open and read it.
Paul's journeys are supported by historical evidence and how many Christian's have been prepared to die, rather than renounce their faith. 
Atheism offers knowledge but delivers nothing.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 08:19:12 PM
Nothing beats the best selling bible, not written for everyone of course,

Not written for everyone of course….hmmmm…..how interesting. Remember the babble only promises heaven to 144,000. Course they need to be of a certain sect…..

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 08:19:12 PMPaul's journeys are supported by historical evidence and how many Christian's have been prepared to die, rather than renounce their faith.

Yep. That's a characteristic unique to Christians. Mmhm.

https://youtu.be/J3iKLz4oatY?t=14s

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 08:19:12 PM
Paul's journeys are supported by historical evidence and how many Christian's have been prepared to die, rather than renounce their faith.

Do we need to talk about Muhammad? Because it sounds like we need to talk about Muhammad. Allahu akbar. [emoji6]



Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 08:19:12 PMNothing beats the best selling bible, not written for everyone of course, but the word comes alive through the spirit so it speaks to the meek and the humble.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3U7yX2RKk7A/Ux4hcXIildI/AAAAAAAAB_U/m5rAFXCIbi4/s1600/megachurch+(3).jpg)

"meek"

(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/cf/cf0a36bea1a68cf66ead5baa9cce0ed7820c6ad0cbdbb378f4cfa5650799e2b6.jpg)

"humble"

QuoteAtheism offers knowledge but delivers nothing.

If you expect anything out of atheism but a respite from the irrationality of theism, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Quote from: aitm on October 18, 2016, 09:31:38 PM
Not written for everyone of course….hmmmm…..how interesting. Remember the babble only promises heaven to 144,000. Course they need to be of a certain sect…..

Christians show total inability to read.  It is 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel ... last time I checked, most Christians are not even Jewish.  This is why, since the 4th century of whacky theology ... the Christians have to interpret that they are all crypto-Jews.  But they still massively fail math.

Quote from: Baruch on October 19, 2016, 12:10:46 AM
Christians show total inability to read.  It is 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel ... last time I checked, most Christians are not even Jewish.  This is why, since the 4th century of whacky theology ... the Christians have to interpret that they are all crypto-Jews.  But they still massively fail math.

How about a atheists and pagan almanac of wacky ideas
#1 how to arrive at conscience thought and intelligence from chemical elements.
#2 explain the big bang? what chemistry was involved and what caused ignition?

The bible has done a better job at getting the message out, since printing was not invented until the 15th century.

And that is evidence in any way?  You've got to be kidding. 

Quoting a part of a book written a century or 2 after the claimed event is like me writing as if I was  writing under the name of George Washington today describing the events at Valley Forge without any actual personal knowledge of it.

Quote from: aitm on October 18, 2016, 09:31:38 PM
Not written for everyone of course….hmmmm…..how interesting. Remember the babble only promises heaven to 144,000. Course they need to be of a certain sect…..

144,000!  That number is so big, I can't even imagine it.  I'm sure I fit into that group.  I must.

Depends on how stupid the deity would be.  And, of course it COULD always be a cricket and only love things that don't bother crickets...  ;)

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 01:38:09 AM
How about a atheists and pagan almanac of wacky ideas
#1 how to arrive at conscience thought and intelligence from chemical elements.
#2 explain the big bang? what chemistry was involved and what caused ignition?

The bible has done a better job at getting the message out, since printing was not invented until the 15th century.

Good questions, but you can't conclude "Christianity" from that.  You probably won't read every post of the past year ... but not too long ago I answered those questions (as only I can).  It isn't long, so I will paraphrase myself ...

One can look at one's experience as a human, at two extremes.  At one end, explanation means, find something simpler than X, from which in principle you could construct X ... like bricks explain a brick building.  It leaves "brick" unexplained, and it doesn't explain where the bricks came from or why humans stacked them into a building.  Reductive explanation is like that, though materialists will claim that "infinite regress" is fine, that some scientist in the future will overcome this with an even more clever, more simplistic building block.  Democritus and Aristotle couldn't leave "infinite regress" alone though they were motivated by Zeno's motion paradox instead of quantum mechanics.  For Democritus, he came up with the idea, still unjustified, that there is an "uncuttable" or "a-tomos" ... where you simply can't continue to slice the salami.  For Aristotle, he came up with the idea, still unjustified, of "unmoved mover" not necessarily personal ... that a logical argument has to have a finite number of steps.  Math proof still struggles over the apparent need for proofs with an infinite number of steps (mathematical induction) and with other infinities.  Math reductionism and physics reductionism have been successful, at least as long as they stop at some point, don't try to step off the cliff.  The other extreme is that reductionism doesn't work in all cases, or perhaps in any case, as a means of explanation.  In Euclid, we don't explain the axioms, we accept them as true (for the purpose of argument) and use deductions to develop theorems based on that assumption.  What if life, the universe, everything (thanks Douglas Adams) is axiomatic, not literally reducible to simpler things, except as a sometimes useful approximation?  So getting to my point ...

Life is axiomatic, not reductive.  It requires no reductive explanation, any more than my right hand requires explanation.  My right hand requires use, as determined by my self, by my free will.  In that case, your questions have no answer, by theists or atheists ... the questions are hiding hidden contradictions (as was feared unnecessarily, regarding the parallel postulate in Euclid).  And thus life, the universe, everything ... is irrational (same as irreducible), if you examine it closely enough.  At most they require demonstration, and that is trivial, not rocket science.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 01:38:09 AM
How about a atheists and pagan almanac of wacky ideas
#1 how to arrive at conscience thought and intelligence from chemical elements.
#2 explain the big bang? what chemistry was involved and what caused ignition?

The bible has done a better job at getting the message out, since printing was not invented until the 15th century.

It's simple. None of you are real. Only I am real. Consciousness does not come from chemical elements; it just appears that way to fool me into believing that this world is real. There was no big bang. My mind imagined this whole world, and when I die, it'll imagine a new one. Obviously, science can't explain these things, so prove me wrong.

Were you born?

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 01:38:09 AM
How about a atheists and pagan almanac of wacky ideas
#1 how to arrive at conscience thought and intelligence from chemical elements.
#2 explain the big bang? what chemistry was involved and what caused ignition?

The "argument" in question is simply an argument from ignorance.  And if you think ignition is the correct way of describing the Big Bang, I feel bad for your science teacher.

There are some pretty compelling reasons why abiogenesis and the Big Bang model were formulated and I urge you to look into it, assuming you can bring yourself to read a book that isn't the Bible.

QuoteThe bible has done a better job at getting the message out, since printing was not invented until the 15th century.

Who would have thought a cult could spread quicker than scientific understanding.  I never would have guessed.

And by the way, how are they doing relative to each other?  Do people say "We used to have a scientific explanation for that, now we have a religious one."  Or is it the opposite?

No, they still say "we have a religious one for that".

Easy to attack religions and churches for that matter but the truth of Christianity comes in the form of the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus and a witness to his authenticity, for those whom. DON'T THINK THEY ALREADY HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 04:24:13 PM
Easy to attack religions and churches for that matter but the truth of Christianity comes in the form of the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus and a witness to his authenticity, for those whom. DON'T THINK THEY ALREADY HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!

Kid, the one who thinks he has all the answers is you. The reason you're here preaching to us is for self-validation. Now that you've encountered resistance, you're trying to shout us down and make yourself feel relevant. You are not. You are an entertaining diversion from our normal discussions about news, politics, and the real world in general.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 04:24:13 PM
Easy to attack religions and churches for that matter but the truth of Christianity comes in the form of the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus and a witness to his authenticity, for those whom. DON'T THINK THEY ALREADY HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!

Oh my!!  You used the T word--think.  You will surly be drummed out of the whatever silly, stupid organization you are a member of.  I do think I have the answers; not all of them, but enough to know that your god is a fiction.  And your Holy Shit, eeerrrrrr, Spirit is just that--holy shit.  It is a fiction, as well.  You go ahead and revel and roll in your B-word.  Believe whatever your leader tells you, keep giving them your money and I believe you will simply die a silly, stupid, ignorant man/woman and end up as atoms, as do all of us.

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 19, 2016, 09:22:52 AM
It's simple. None of you are real. Only I am real. Consciousness does not come from chemical elements; it just appears that way to fool me into believing that this world is real. There was no big bang. My mind imagined this whole world, and when I die, it'll imagine a new one. Obviously, science can't explain these things, so prove me wrong.

Except Buddha already beat you to it .. but completed the cycle of skepticism.  When you have as many followers as he has, maybe I will worship you too ;-)

Quote from: Baruch on October 19, 2016, 12:10:46 AM
Christians show total inability to read.  It is 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel ... last time I checked, most Christians are not even Jewish.  This is why, since the 4th century of whacky theology ... the Christians have to interpret that they are all crypto-Jews.  But they still massively fail math.

hmm 12,000 x 12= 144,000…all of a particular "sect"……. hmmmm….

Only the JWs do good math, but that gets them in trouble, since they have cumulatively had more than 144,000 member so far ;-(

I believe Christians can learn a lot from Buddhists as far as reflecting a peaceful spirit, in fact almost all religions can co-exist except Islam.
The return of Jesus Christ will fulfil prophecy for Christians (Saviour) Jews (Messiah) and Moslems, by destroying the myth that Mohammed is their (prophet).
For atheists the big bang theory will be confirmed as the earth implodes.
 

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 11:42:47 PM
I believe Christians can learn a lot from Buddhists as far as reflecting a peaceful spirit, in fact almost all religions can co-exist except Islam.
The return of Jesus Christ will fulfil prophecy for Christians (Saviour) Jews (Messiah) and Moslems, by destroying the myth that Mohammed is their (prophet).
For atheists the big bang theory will be confirmed as the earth implodes.

Yeah, you sure do have all your facts in line.  Can't argue such clear thinking.  Man, you just ripped the scales from my eyes and convinced me of the error of my ways.

Quote from: freetodecide on October 18, 2016, 04:52:08 PM
Your job as an atheist is to demolish the so called messiah myth which has endured 2000 years, the best you can come up with is bugs bunny!

[mod]Nah. You're done here.
Learn what the burden of proof is.

By the way. What can you tell me of purgatory, as it's described in your faith? See you there.[/mod]

Quote from: freetodecide on October 19, 2016, 04:24:13 PM
Easy to attack religions and churches for that matter but the truth of Christianity comes in the form of the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus and a witness to his authenticity, for those whom. DON'T THINK THEY ALREADY HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!

The reason it is so easy to attack Christians (or Jews or Moslems or others) os that the whole concept makes no sense.  Do you believe that Thor is a true deity?  Do you worship Thor. 

I don't and I don't believe in your deity for the same reason.  "It" seems as idiotic and unsensible as Thor to me.

Your reasons supporting your own deity (whatever it is) don't matter to me just as those of someone who believes in Thor wouldn't matter to you.  Whatever deity you believe in, I merely believe in one less.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 18, 2016, 06:12:54 PM
My 'job' is not defending my atheism.  I don't care if you accept the way I think or not.  Who hands out these 'jobs' anyway????  And I suggest that Bugs Bunny is as real as your set of fictional characters.  If length of time for a belief to have been around is your measurement of truth,  why are you not a Buddhist?

Forget Buddha, why not Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, or the Native American mythologies. The NA mythos in particular are quite violent and make for some very interesting folklore to learn.

Also towards cave... Thor isn't idiotic :(.

Quote from: Shiranu on October 22, 2016, 03:32:15 AM
Forget Buddha, why not Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, or the Native American mythologies. The NA mythos in particular are quite violent and make for some very interesting folklore to learn.

Also towards cave... Thor isn't idiotic :(.

Thor is as moronic as all the rest.  Have you red the actual Norse stories?  But he does make for a good movie.  Or are you making the sign of the hammer these days.  ;)

Quote from: Cavebear on October 22, 2016, 07:51:16 AM
Thor is as moronic as all the rest.  Have you red the actual Norse stories?  But he does make for a good movie.  Or are you making the sign of the hammer these days.  ;)

European Christianity is hybrid ... back in the day, Norse crosses combined the Christian cross with Mjolnir ... just in case.  Native Americans did similar things, to keep the padres off their backs.

All gods are equally idiotic, but each in their own way(s).  Taken as a whole, it is quite obvious they are human inventions.  And since which one you believe in is an accident of geography, any thinking person (yes, a huge qualifier for any theist) can see that any god will have the impact upon you that you want it to have; your choice.  And a thinking person can see that any god is just plain fictional.   

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 22, 2016, 01:52:53 PM
All gods are equally idiotic, but each in their own way(s).  Taken as a whole, it is quite obvious they are human inventions.  And since which one you believe in is an accident of geography, any thinking person (yes, a huge qualifier for any theist) can see that any god will have the impact upon you that you want it to have; your choice.  And a thinking person can see that any god is just plain fictional.

Speaking of demi-gods ... Genghis Khan is still such in Mongolia ... and his burial place at the top of a mountain is still guarded and still sacred.

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 22, 2016, 01:52:53 PM
All gods are equally idiotic, but each in their own way(s).  Taken as a whole, it is quite obvious they are human inventions.  And since which one you believe in is an accident of geography, any thinking person (yes, a huge qualifier for any theist) can see that any god will have the impact upon you that you want it to have; your choice.  And a thinking person can see that any god is just plain fictional.

True that!  I recall one of the Conan movies where he tells somone his God is the Earth and the other says but my God is the sky, and Conan looks up and you can just SEE him contemplating this new idea.

Fortunately, we are beyond that.   But the expansion of his thought WAS impressive.  One step forward to less than one deity...

You have to believe in Thor. That's a whole lot of movies we can't make, if you don't. The next one is "Thor meets Bugs Bunny". ... Bugs kills Thor with a carrot.

Quote from: fencerider on December 03, 2016, 11:56:10 AM
You have to believe in Thor. That's a whole lot of movies we can't make, if you don't. The next one is "Thor meets Bugs Bunny". ... Bugs kills Thor with a carrot.

I worship Taz myself ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOTlNOZB4Zo

Quote from: Baruch on December 03, 2016, 12:10:13 PM
I worship Taz myself ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOTlNOZB4Zo

Yeah, Taz is da man!!!

Quote from: Baruch on December 03, 2016, 12:10:13 PM
I worship Taz myself ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOTlNOZB4Zo

You dare blaspheme against our Lord and Lizard!?

(https://images4.alphacoders.com/193/19354.jpg)

Quote from: fencerider on December 03, 2016, 11:56:10 AM
You have to believe in Thor. That's a whole lot of movies we can't make, if you don't. The next one is "Thor meets Bugs Bunny". ... Bugs kills Thor with a carrot.

Bugs launches a sharpened carrot in a perfect spiral.  The carrot hits Thor in the spot just under the larynx.  Thor dies from lack of breath (even Norse Gods need to breathe).  Bugs replaces Thor on the Avengers as "Bullseye Bunny.  And since he can't be killed (except with DIP) he becomes Odin's favorite son before Loki (and of course Odin actually IS Loki, so none of that matters. 

*coff, coff*