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The Debate Hall => Informal Debates => Topic started by: Jannabear on May 24, 2016, 02:03:47 PM

Title: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Jannabear on May 24, 2016, 02:03:47 PM
Imo in places like america we need egalitarianism, in places like saudi arabia we need feminism (Not this 3rd wave feminism shit, real feminism), and in places like UK, where 3rd wave feminism has gone mad, we need an MRA movement.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Baruch on May 25, 2016, 02:35:09 AM
France is the only country to support egalitarianism.  They are the only Western country actively suppressing religion.  English speaking countries all support feral capitalism.  Germany supports feral immigrants.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: drunkenshoe on May 25, 2016, 06:03:13 AM
France is the only country to support egalitarianism. 

French supports egalitarianism if it is speaking French and if you are a European.  Same goes with British, German with plus racism...pretty much every continental European culture.

Scandinavian countries by far are the only countries that could be defined as civilised egalitarianist countries on the planet. From migrant rights to the general laws which really counts.

Canada comes after those at the other side of the world. Continental Europe? I would say Netherlands and Belgium, but compared to continental Europe, not Scandinavia.





Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Jannabear on July 06, 2016, 07:15:55 AM
French supports egalitarianism if it is speaking French and if you are a European.  Same goes with British, German with plus racism...pretty much every continental European culture.

Scandinavian countries by far are the only countries that could be defined as civilised egalitarianist countries on the planet. From migrant rights to the general laws which really counts.

Canada comes after those at the other side of the world. Continental Europe? I would say Netherlands and Belgium, but compared to continental Europe, not Scandinavia.
Saying someone supports egalitarianism except for these people is like saying someone isnt racist except they hate black people, it makes no sense.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Cavebear on October 19, 2016, 08:41:28 AM
France is the only country to support egalitarianism.  They are the only Western country actively suppressing religion.  English speaking countries all support feral capitalism.  Germany supports feral immigrants.

Wow, you are a Franco-Socialist who still thinks France is the center of the world.  And you hate immigrants!  "Feral Immigrants"?  I am beginning to understand you better now.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Baruch on October 19, 2016, 09:39:54 PM
You are misreading me ... but I am OK with that.  I was responding to a rather liberal OP, not to some Trump supporter.  And no, I don't support how Germany is handling ME immigrants.  They need to blow them all back to Hell where they came from (but not literally, a nice bus ride to Turkey would be fine).  At least if I were German, I would be strongly Nazi by now, and Jewish too!
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Atheon on October 19, 2016, 11:45:29 PM
Different degrees and forms of feminism are needed in different countries.

In the US, where women have mostly attained equality, it's needed because there are powerful right-wing and religious forces out there who want to roll back the advances and revert women to second-class citizenship.

In Sudan, it's needed because young girls get their clitorises sliced off against their will. Not to mention rape and other forms of oppression.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Hijiri Byakuren on October 20, 2016, 12:46:25 AM
All of them.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Shiranu on October 20, 2016, 12:49:05 AM
All of them.

Beat me to it by a minute...
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 20, 2016, 02:58:12 AM
Justified egalitarianism is welcome in Every country, imho.
And when dealing with justified causes and valid reasons, MRA and feminist pointes are a part of egalitarianism.
And as we live in ever changing (and learning) societies, I think there Will always be Some  necessity for egalitarianism, feminism and MRA. not agreeing with Every point made in their name doesn't take that away.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Mr.Obvious on October 20, 2016, 03:45:21 AM

Canada comes after those at the other side of the world. Continental Europe? I would say Netherlands and Belgium, but compared to continental Europe, not Scandinavia.

As a country, i'd dare to say belgium tries to provide decent rights for all and attempts to provide for those who need their basic needs provided for, whilst Aiming for an egalitarian framework. But with a failing and old social system in place and from working with THE minimum provided (as deciding if one should get it or not is part of my job), I couldn't honestly call us a greatest example.

Proverty begets poverty. I see it day by day. No money. No chances. No opportunities. No sympathy  from the working class. No hope. The poor grow more poor still.
They stand alone and they are not Deemed equal...
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Baruch on October 20, 2016, 07:31:22 AM
Sympathy vs discipline.

In the Roman days when we all had a Pater Familias ... if you didn't work, the Pater Familias would have you beaten for laziness.  He took care of his own, so the Emperor wouldn't have to take care of him.  All societies are based on work, and for some people, all work is slavery (particularly if you are a Patrician).  Of course I am sympathetic to the disabled ... but in olden times they would have died early, because the support network was minimal.  But there is evidence that even Romans took care of their family members (but probably expected them to contribute what they could, not play with their iPhones all day).  The slaves (hired help) didn't get that kind of treatment, they weren't family.  In any society in any age ... woe to you if you have no family.  To some degree, the government can be the family for those people today ... but still contributing to the common good should be required, even if it is only filling pot holes.  The wealthy and powerful will always escape the virtue of work ;-)
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Sal1981 on October 20, 2016, 11:12:25 AM
We need egalitarianism everywhere. I look at feminism (real feminists, not the 3rd wave one, which is basically a supremacist movement) and MRA as two sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: aitm on October 20, 2016, 11:30:48 AM
The argument eventually degrades into specific point by point definitions of what "equal opportunity" means. To some equal opportunity is simply being able to walk into a place of business and apply for a job. To others, it is necessary for equal to be equal that equality must be not just available but measured and handicapped so that each person offers the exact same abilities...albeit with aforementioned handicaps.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Baruch on October 20, 2016, 07:12:38 PM
The argument eventually degrades into specific point by point definitions of what "equal opportunity" means. To some equal opportunity is simply being able to walk into a place of business and apply for a job. To others, it is necessary for equal to be equal that equality must be not just available but measured and handicapped so that each person offers the exact same abilities...albeit with aforementioned handicaps.

We all have equal opportunity, when we are embryos (mostly, excepting genetic and embryological defects).  We also have equal opportunity when we are corpses (I don't count a big funeral or no funeral at all, to be about the deceased ... it is about the survivors).  Beyond that, America is a piece of lying shit.  At least when Russia is a lying shit, I am less likely to be taken in (being American and all).
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 03:43:14 AM
Equality means equal chance at any job given equal pertinent merits. In studies where gender is disguised, women are chosen as often as men.  In screened musical tests, women are chosen more often than when seen by judges.

And there is the obvious biases.  On airplanes, where a passenger suffers a problem and a doctor is asked for among the passengers, black female doctors are ignored in favor of white male doctors, white female doctors, and even general pharmacists.  Bias is against the idea of black female doctors. 

We will have a fair society when all bias is eliminated.
Title: You are a woman and black and a doctor?!
Post by: drunkenshoe on October 26, 2016, 04:14:46 AM
Equality means equal chance at any job given equal pertinent merits. In studies where gender is disguised, women are chosen as often as men.  In screened musical tests, women are chosen more often than when seen by judges.

And there is the obvious biases.  On airplanes, where a passenger suffers a problem and a doctor is asked for among the passengers, black female doctors are ignored in favor of white male doctors, white female doctors, and even general pharmacists.  Bias is against the idea of black female doctors. 

We will have a fair society when all bias is eliminated.

Yep. Here is an example for the musician auditions:

Orchestrating Impartiality: The Impact of “Blind” Auditions on Female Musicians

Quote
Orchestrating Impartiality: The Impact of “Blind” Auditions on Female Musicians
Authors: Claudia Goldin Cecilia Rouse
“Blind” orchestra auditions reduce sex-biased hiring and increase the number of female musicians.

↓FINDINGS ↓METHODOLOGY
The difficulties associated with proving and addressing gender discrimination in hiring processes have presented policymakers with a major challenge over the past few decades. In an attempt to overcome gender-biased hiring, a vast majority of symphony orchestras revised their hiring practices from the 1950s. Many orchestras opened up their hiring process to a range of candidates, rather than only hiring musicians who were handpicked by the conductor. As a result of these changes, most orchestras now hire new players after about three rounds of live or recorded auditions: preliminary, semi-final, and final. Additionally, as part of these revisions, a number of orchestras adopted “blind” auditions whereby screens are used to conceal the identity and gender of the musician from the jury. In the years after these changes were instituted, the percent of female musicians in the five highest-ranked orchestras in the nation increased from 6 percent in 1970 to 21 percent in 1993. Given the low turnover found in most symphony orchestras, the increase in female musicians is significant. In this seminal study, the authors examine whether these new hiring practices were responsible for the increase observed in women’s employment in symphony orchestras.

Findings

“Blind” auditions for symphony orchestras reduced sex-biased hiring and improved female musicians’ likelihood of advancing out of preliminary rounds, which often leads to tenured employment.

Using a screen to conceal candidates from the jury during preliminary auditions increased the likelihood that a female musician would advance to the next round by 11 percentage points. During the final round, “blind” auditions increased the likelihood of female musicians being selected by 30%.
According to analysis using roster data, the transition to blind auditions from 1970 to the 1990s can explain 30 percent of the increase in the proportion female among new hires and possibly 25 percent of the increase in the percentage female in the orchestras.
In short, “blind” auditions significantly reduced gender-biased hiring and the gender gap in symphony orchestra compositions.
Methodology

In the 1970s and 1980s, most symphony orchestras in the United States began adopting “blind” auditions whereby the identity of potential candidates was concealed from the jury by a screen. In this study, the authors make use of existing audition records and orchestra personnel rosters to examine the effects of “blind” auditions at various stages in the audition process on the likelihood of women advancing and eventually being hired. The dataset is unique because it contains the complete contestant pool for each audition and allows authors to link individuals across multiple auditions.

Audition records were collected from 8 major symphony orchestras, dating from the late 1950s to 1995. The analysis sample for auditions consists of 14,121 person-rounds, 7,065 individuals and 588 audition-rounds.

Black Women Are Doctors, Believe It or Not, America

http://time.com/4532225/black-women-doctors/

Political correctness even in this article in one sentence is ridiculous. They refrained from expressing the gender issue directly. You know, you could sound bluntly feminist and hurt some eyes if you accurately express the situation? "He was older and white." No, He was a MAN and then older and white.

Quote
Dr. Tamika Cross, who is an OBGYN in Houston, posted on Facebook last weekend that a Delta flight attendant rejected her offer to help a sick patient and questioned whether she was really a doctor. Dr. Cross is young and black. Another doctor on board was allowed to help. He was older and white.

Her story is all too familiar to me. Over the last few years, I have interviewed dozens of black women doctors for my documentary film, Black Women in Medicine. Time and time again they would share with me stories about how they were mistaken for home health aides or dieticians. People refused to believe a black woman could be a physician, much less a surgeon. Dr. Jennifer Ellis, who is one of only six black female cardiothoracic surgeons in America, said that the further away your appearance is from TV’s Marcus Welby, the harder it is for people to believe you’re a doctor.

Dr. Cross’ experience highlights a major problem in our society. Currently, only 2% of all physicians are black women. This sobering statistic has real-life implications for the health of our country. Women like Dr. Cross have persevered in medical fields in part by overcoming barriers linked to race and gender. Dr. Joycelyn Elders, the first African-American Surgeon General, told me, “You can’t be what you can’t see.”

What we have learned is that minority doctors are more likely to provide care to minority, underserved, and disadvantaged communities, meaning their under-representation is of utmost concern. We all must challenge the status quo by replacing the false and debasing historical narrative regarding race, ethnicity and gender with positive, empowering images. We must bring together doctors and students of all ages and build powerful relationships to inspire new generations of medical professionals.

We tell our black children they can be anything they want to be—an engineer, a scientist, a surgeon. We tell mainstream America that everyone has equal opportunity and that, post-Obama, racism does not exist. Then we read about what happened to Dr. Cross and it makes you question what it’s all about.

Here is the trailer of the recent documentary made about black female doctors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bQULXfB544




Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 04:35:50 AM
The exact examples I had in mind.  Thank you.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: drunkenshoe on October 26, 2016, 05:16:48 AM
The exact examples I had in mind.  Thank you.

Don't mention it.
Title: Re: In what countries are feminism, MRA, and egalitarianism valid?
Post by: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 08:25:52 AM
OK, I won't,  ;)