One of the many embarrassing perils of being a Catholic is when Antonin Scalia, a Catholic in name only, was a member of the Hell bound Catholic church who hid their pedophile priests in “coverups†by their bishops, and church officials over the years.
Here’s a simple way to assess Scalia’s current pope’ Francis’ performance regarding the churches pedophile coverup scandals:
1 Name one complicit church official anywhere who has been disciplined by Francis relative to pedophile abuse. ZERO.
2 Name one child-molesting cleric anywhere who has been exposed by the Francis himself. ZERO.
3 Only until May of this year did pope Francis mention the discipline of pedophile priests in a very vague way, and he somehow forgot to mention where the bishops systematically transferred pedophile priests around parishes instead of reporting them to police where punishment is in order as well. Victims' groups have demanded Francis punish such bishops, but so far, Francis’ silence is deafening upon this factual topic!
The wishful thinking is, one can only wonder why Antonin Scalia didn’t use his Supreme Court influence with pope Francis in totally going after the churches pedophile alumni, in the same vein as Francis did with his visit to the US Congress regarding immigration. Funny how that works!
Subjectively, its hard to look up to Antonin Scalia, because he held his hell bound Bronze and Iron Age pedophile coverup Catholic Church in high esteem while making decisions upon matters of the United States against women and gays.
How anyone can swallow the Catholic Kool Aide in todays age is beyond reason, but our token pseudo-christian named “Randy†has, as he drinks daily from the ruse of the Catholic faith. LOL
Normally I'm more of a jerk when it comes to this, but I think you've gone a bit too far.
I (used) to go to a Vietnamese Catholic Parish, and generally fun times there. All the priests were nice people, and (dare I say), all the women there hot too.
We had fun discussion about god, only once getting in trouble for bumping into a priest, but otherwise they were lenient with how they taught us god.
Then there is you. You are the opposite of those kind people. I'm tired of you just going on and on about how you hate Catholics.
Catholics run schools, orphanages, debate groups, music festivals, and even decent art.
I personally volunteer for many places, even with my autism trying to make me shy away from such things. I even do some real citizen science, where I track the birds in my area. I've learned stress management and made some good friends. Even religious ones. I'm not an angry atheist that most people would assume. Many still think that way, and I'm always saddened by the horror on their faces when I tell them, the fact that cognitive dissonance is even there makes me want to vomit.
And then there is you. What do you do?
Look, Catholicism isn't perfect. But what is an echo chamber going to do?
Last week, my dad took me back to church trying to get me back in. I told them all I learned in the past 3 years, including stuff about priests. Most of them already knew, and knew to call the police and struggle if it were to happen. They were SANE.
I do everything I can to stop stereotypes against being atheist. What do you do?
It IS rather unfair to pick on randy as he has been spoon fed from infancy….he has little choice but to believe and cannot find his way out. However, I have no objection to the rest of your post, the babble well establishes the right to rape children at will, god grants that. SO in that sense, yes, I wouldn't let randy around children.
Quote from: aitm on May 15, 2016, 06:26:26 PM
It IS rather unfair to pick on randy as he has been spoon fed from infancy….he has little choice but to believe and cannot find his way out. However, I have no objection to the rest of your post, the babble well establishes the right to rape children at will, god grants that. SO in that sense, yes, I wouldn't let randy around children.
Everyone here knows that "What's Written in the Babble" isn't equal to "0 Errors, Commence Action" right?
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 06:28:51 PM
Everyone here knows that "What's Written in the Babble" isn't equal to "0 Errors, Commence Action" right?
You are right about the pointless rhetoric. Shadow boxing in a video game doesn't cover the half of it. It would be better there be no scripture at all, than people make endless valueless arguments about it. Socrates would say that books are the corruption of education anyway. Actual education is one on one between two people, who think on their feet, about ordinary things. How many angels dance on the head of a pin ... is rather pointless.
So study individual people, not scripture or theology. In that sense Plato was a betrayal of what Socrates stood for, because he got paid for teaching (Socrates did it for free as a civic duty) and he wrote books. Of course, studying institutions isn't studying people, but a social process, and is usually a downer for me.
I don't believe in picking on, more a "give them rope and let them hang themselves" type.
Quote from: Baruch on May 15, 2016, 06:44:29 PM
Actual education is one on one between two people, who think on their feet, about ordinary things. How many angels dance on the head of a pin ... is rather pointless.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Quote from: aitm on May 15, 2016, 06:26:26 PM
It IS rather unfair to pick on randy as he has been spoon fed from infancy….he has little choice but to believe and cannot find his way out. However, I have no objection to the rest of your post, the babble well establishes the right to rape children at will, god grants that. SO in that sense, yes, I wouldn't let randy around children.
I believe Randy indicated he is an adult convert. Or pervert, whichever is more applicable.
As we can see, Randy stays out of this kitchen because its too hot for him to enter! This topic is just another reason why
Randy has to HIDE from his primitive embarrassing Catholic faith, what's new? Nothing.
In turn, even though he HIDES because he is embarrassed, at the same time, this is the faith he wants to promote to others, laughable.
I just returned to the Catholic Church a few month ago and have no regrets. The Church does a ton of good stuff and I like being a part of that. You ask what's being done about pedophiles, and I can tell you quite a bit. I just volunteered for some charity work at my local parish, but before I could start I had to take a class called "Safe Environment Training". Every adult who works or volunteers in the Church has to take the class, including clergy.
I took the class a few days ago and I was impressed. The instructor was a member of a neighboring parish who also happens to be a sex crimes police detective. He talked about the abuse of children in the Church, how to recognize it, and how to report it. We watched interview videos of victims and pedophiles, talked about past atrocities, prevention, and what steps to take if it rears its ugly head. He didn't pull any punches and emphasized that you call the police first, then child services, and then the parish last.
Quote from: Jack89 on May 16, 2016, 12:57:27 PM
I just returned to the Catholic Church a few month ago and have no regrets. The Church does a ton of good stuff and I like being a part of that. You ask what's being done about pedophiles, and I can tell you quite a bit. I just volunteered for some charity work at my local parish, but before I could start I had to take a class called "Safe Environment Training". Every adult who works or volunteers in the Church has to take the class, including clergy.
I took the class a few days ago and I was impressed. The instructor was a member of a neighboring parish who also happens to be a sex crimes police detective. He talked about the abuse of children in the Church, how to recognize it, and how to report it. We watched interview videos of victims and pedophiles, talked about past atrocities, prevention, and what steps to take if it rears its ugly head. He didn't pull any punches and emphasized that you call the police first, then child services, and then the parish last.
Good. But you would think that all those priests and other clergy and lay people that are just stuffed full of the Holy Spirit would not need anything other than the Law of the Lord for guidance. Gee, I wonder where the holy spirit and Jesus are when all these bad things happen with his earthly tools????????
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 16, 2016, 01:01:30 PM
Good. But you would think that all those priests and other clergy and lay people that are just stuffed full of the Holy Spirit would not need anything other than the Law of the Lord for guidance. Gee, I wonder where the holy spirit and Jesus are when all these bad things happen with his earthly tools????????
Good question.
Quote from: Jack89 on May 16, 2016, 12:57:27 PM
I just returned to the Catholic Church a few month ago and have no regrets. The Church does a ton of good stuff and I like being a part of that. You ask what's being done about pedophiles, and I can tell you quite a bit. I just volunteered for some charity work at my local parish, but before I could start I had to take a class called "Safe Environment Training". Every adult who works or volunteers in the Church has to take the class, including clergy.
I took the class a few days ago and I was impressed. The instructor was a member of a neighboring parish who also happens to be a sex crimes police detective. He talked about the abuse of children in the Church, how to recognize it, and how to report it. We watched interview videos of victims and pedophiles, talked about past atrocities, prevention, and what steps to take if it rears its ugly head. He didn't pull any punches and emphasized that you call the police first, then child services, and then the parish last.
Jack89,
YOUR QUOTE: "The Church does a ton of good stuff and I like being a part of that. "
Why did it take the primitive Catholic church so long in starting to do the "good stuff" regarding their pedophile priests AND THE SUBSEQUENT COVERUPS of these child buggering godly men?
Heads up, if the Bronze and Iron Age Catholic church actually did some "good stuff," and in the eyes of the bible character Jesus, then they wouldn't have one dollar in their coffers because they should be spending it all in helping the poor worldwide! The Catholic church continues to represent themselves as HYPOCRITES to the word of the alleged Jesus the Christ Disgusting!
“Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.†(Proverbs 19:17)
“But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.†( Luke 14:13-14)
“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you.†( Leviticus 25:35-36)
Jesus said: “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. Protect the rights of all who are helpless.†( Proverbs 31:8)
“For there will never cease to be poor in the land.
Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’ (Deuteronomy 15:11)
Jack89, can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S? Sure you can.(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ac/24/06/ac2406955dd3251da0b14671fa587bb8.jpg)
But, Pope Francis has given us a new Testament.
Oh, wait...
http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/16/pope-francis-betrays-christianity-by-romanticizing-poverty/ (http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/16/pope-francis-betrays-christianity-by-romanticizing-poverty/)
Blessed are the cave people.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 16, 2016, 04:16:06 PM
But, Pope Francis has given us a new Testament.
Oh, wait...
http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/16/pope-francis-betrays-christianity-by-romanticizing-poverty/ (http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/16/pope-francis-betrays-christianity-by-romanticizing-poverty/)
Blessed are the cave people.
I found that interesting. Yet the pope parades around in outfits that, if sold, could feed the poor of a small nation for quite some time. He is almost clownish in his costuming--but not in a cheap way. He says that jesus taught that poverty is good. Why does he not experience it then????
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 16, 2016, 04:40:22 PM
I found that interesting. Yet the pope parades around in outfits that, if sold, could feed the poor of a small nation for quite some time. He is almost clownish in his costuming--but not in a cheap way. He says that jesus taught that poverty is good. Why does he not experience it then????
Between 2 and 3 TRILLION dollars is the estimate of the RCC's worth! Could wipe out hunger and/or provide drinking water for the world. But maybe there is some legal tender in their afterlife and they are just planning ahead? A celestial casino?
Quote from: reasonist on May 16, 2016, 05:09:42 PM
Between 2 and 3 TRILLION dollars is the estimate of the RCC's worth! Could wipe out hunger and/or provide drinking water for the world. But maybe there is some legal tender in their afterlife and they are just planning ahead? A celestial casino?
This is an issue I've noticed my entire life. The meek shall inherit the earth. Okay--what earth are we talking about? The catholic church is not meek nor humble. They use the humble card to make them seem more important--a suffering. I have yet to see a pope that knows what poverty is. Their history is steeped in the acquiring of power and wealth--and I have to admit they are good at it; not moral, just good.
Does a person make their poverty, or does poverty make the person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVfdZevxf_o
atleast Catholics are better than protestants
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on May 16, 2016, 06:19:52 PM
atleast Catholics are better than protestants
QuoteThe Protestant’s Dilemma
If Protestantism is true, all are fallible. So the Protestant must rely on his own judgment above that of his church. And the orthodoxy of the church itself is judged against his interpretation of the Bible. Thus is becomes impossible to distinguish between what divine revelation actually is versus what a fallible human being thinks it is. This fact makes the Catholic Church, philosophically speaking, preferable to Protestantism, since God’s truth can be knownâ€"and known with certainty.
http://www.catholic.com/blog/devin-rose/why-catholicism-is-preferable-to-protestantism (http://www.catholic.com/blog/devin-rose/why-catholicism-is-preferable-to-protestantism)
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 16, 2016, 06:16:53 PM
Does a person make their poverty, or does poverty make the person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVfdZevxf_o
Trick question. Per free will, it is up to you what your poverty means. I suspect it is both, but Vulcans can't grok that.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2016, 07:23:54 PM
I suspect it is both, but Vulcans can't grok that.
Are we learning more about you?
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 16, 2016, 07:37:41 PM
Are we learning more about you?
There was a time when I was more Romulan ... but today I am more Bajoran.
"The Protestant’s Dilemma
If Protestantism is true, all are fallible. So the Protestant must rely on his own judgment above that of his church. And the orthodoxy of the church itself is judged against his interpretation of the Bible. Thus is becomes impossible to distinguish between what divine revelation actually is versus what a fallible human being thinks it is. This fact makes the Catholic Church, philosophically speaking, preferable to Protestantism, since God’s truth can be knownâ€"and known with certainty."
As a personal preference ... I prefer to take responsibility, since I am an adult. Children are not to be held responsible, their parents are. But at some point that has to bifurcate. That is the point of the Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah. Also Confirmation in traditional Christianity or public recitation of the Five Pillars of Islam.
I find it unacceptable if one is an adult ... to blame your parents or society ... either stand up for what you have done ... or apologize and do better next time. So in religion, to rely overly much on institutional authority, whether human, or scripture, or tradition ... is a weak reed. In any religion, you can have an adult understanding and practice ... and be responsible for yourself.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2016, 10:15:03 PM
There was a time when I was more Romulan ... but today I am more Bejoran.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2016, 10:23:57 PM
I find it unacceptable if one is an adult ... to blame your parents or society ... either stand up for what you have done ... or apologize and do better next time. So in religion, to rely overly much on institutional authority, whether human, or scripture, or tradition ... is a weak reed. In any religion, you can have an adult understanding and practice ... and be responsible for yourself.
Are you saying you've changed and are encouraging others to change?
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 16, 2016, 10:59:18 PM
Are you saying you've changed and are encouraging others to change?
I have changed and will continue to change. Everyone does. But not everyone is meant to be Bajoran, and spend time in the worm hole with the Prophets ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2016, 11:05:10 PM
I have changed and will continue to change. Everyone does.
So,what did you mean when you said that people don't reform?
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 16, 2016, 11:37:44 PM
So,what did you mean when you said that people don't reform?
Good question. Change and reform aren't the same. Reform implies that you were doing something bad, have repented, and now have become a normal psychopath like the rest of us ;-). Change doesn't moralize or criminalize. Some people turn away from a life of crime (aka sin), others turn to it. That is why the Catholics have that complicated penance system for non-mortal sins. They don't want to turn a blind eye to bad behavior, yet they don't want to drive all the sinners out of the church either.
Religious practice ... as an individual ... is simple. Anything that can't be counted out on your ten fingers is too complicated for people to deal with.
1. Pray ... this comes in many forms, often for me it is study. The point of prayer isn't to communicate with G-d ... that is ridiculous.
2. Repent ... this means that an unexamined life isn't worth living. You find out where you are doing poorly, and figure out how to do better.
3. Do Good Deeds ... this means that as a result of #1 & #2 ... you are going to try a better way. Part of this is to remember this simple system. Another part is to return to #1 and repeat the cycle.
None of this is different from what Socrates did ... he prayed to his pagan gods, he examined his life, he did good deeds (particularly emphasizing citizenship). You don't have to be Abrahamic to do this. Confucious would agree to the same system. I just happen to take it from a Jewish perspective.
Sorry, that all looks like you're saying people can reform.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 17, 2016, 12:01:08 AM
Sorry, that all looks like you're saying people can reform.
Call it what you will, as long as you do it ;-) I am not saying that I can actually improve myself, just that I have to try. Often I may be replacing one sin with another ;-(
What I am saying is that you can live your life, more or less deliberately. You aren't completely helpless or hopeless.
Quote from: Baruch on May 17, 2016, 12:05:55 AM
Often I may be replacing one sin with another ;-(
I call that "trading habits". I once thought it might be a nice band name.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 17, 2016, 12:08:22 AM
I call that "trading habits". I once thought it might be a nice band name.
Between Catholic and Anglican nuns? ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on May 17, 2016, 12:13:50 AM
Between Catholic and Anglican nuns? ;-))
That, and I tend to barter.
Quote from: Baruch on May 15, 2016, 06:44:29 PM
You are right about the pointless rhetoric. Shadow boxing in a video game doesn't cover the half of it. It would be better there be no scripture at all, than people make endless valueless arguments about it. Socrates would say that books are the corruption of education anyway. Actual education is one on one between two people, who think on their feet, about ordinary things. How many angels dance on the head of a pin ... is rather pointless.
So study individual people, not scripture or theology. In that sense Plato was a betrayal of what Socrates stood for, because he got paid for teaching (Socrates did it for free as a civic duty) and he wrote books. Of course, studying institutions isn't studying people, but a social process, and is usually a downer for me.
The ONLY point in going to college or grad school is to get the "piece of paper." One will NOT be educated in either place. If one wishes to be educated, one must undertake that education oneself. One must read widely - and go out in the World and meet PEOPLE. That's the only way. (Ignore the news for the most part. By reading, I mean great works of literature.)
There is art and music and the beauty of architecture - and food and dance - and, yes, even fashion - to stimulate one's senses. These are all things to be enjoyed. Not to enjoy them is foolish. And then there is nature. Not to enjoy that is equally foolish.
While one cannot turn away from the horrors of the World, one cannot ignore its beauties, either. Life is too precious to be myopic.
I'm not Catholic (any longer), but even I enjoy watching the ritual of a papal mass, and I do love the architecture. I have been to the Vatican. I don't care about what the popes have done. The Sistine Chapel I would preserve for all time, even if the Catholic faith died tomorrow. I refuse to allow what some human beings have done to get in the way of appreciating what other human beings have done. I have seen the Pieta (I have stood not 2 feet from it on more than one occasion) - that alone is precious, despite its clear religious connotations. It is gorgeousness beyond any words that I can come up with. That could be any mother, holding her beloved dead son.Any mother.
I got to see a full size plaster copy of the Pieta ... and other Catholic stuff at the Denver Art Museum, when it was on tour. Obviously the actual Pieta can't go on tour. Was Michelangelo 23 years old when he did the Pieta? Amazing stuff. My Ex has been to the Vatican ... and she is ex-Catholic.
College can be useful, but it has gotten too expensive for most people. This is because of the government student loan subsidy. The government needs to get out of formal post HS education.
Religion in general, by its very nature, is "beyond reason". You don't "reason" yourself into the belief that magic is real. It is not "reasonable" to believe a deity is both loving and vengeful, a "father figure" who will dole out horrific, eternal punishment against his "children" for the slightest offense. There is no "reason" to believe both that only God can judge, but also that you "know" when someone is going to Hell, mostly because you don't like them. It is a fantasy and reason doesn't apply to fantasies.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 16, 2016, 11:59:46 AM
As we can see, Randy stays out of this kitchen because its too hot for him to enter! This topic is just another reason why
Randy has to HIDE from his primitive embarrassing Catholic faith, what's new? Nothing.
In turn, even though he HIDES because he is embarrassed, at the same time, this is the faith he wants to promote to others, laughable.
(http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/popcorn.gif)
Quote from: Jack89 on May 16, 2016, 12:57:27 PM
I just returned to the Catholic Church a few month ago and have no regrets. The Church does a ton of good stuff and I like being a part of that. You ask what's being done about pedophiles, and I can tell you quite a bit. I just volunteered for some charity work at my local parish, but before I could start I had to take a class called "Safe Environment Training". Every adult who works or volunteers in the Church has to take the class, including clergy.
I took the class a few days ago and I was impressed. The instructor was a member of a neighboring parish who also happens to be a sex crimes police detective. He talked about the abuse of children in the Church, how to recognize it, and how to report it. We watched interview videos of victims and pedophiles, talked about past atrocities, prevention, and what steps to take if it rears its ugly head. He didn't pull any punches and emphasized that you call the police first, then child services, and then the parish last.
Thanks for the overview, Jack.
Unfortunately, it goes against the tide of this forum, so don't expect anyone to let your facts get in the way of their anti-Catholic story.
Stop by the forum at catholic.com if you haven't already done so.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 16, 2016, 01:01:30 PM
Good. But you would think that all those priests and other clergy and lay people that are just stuffed full of the Holy Spirit would not need anything other than the Law of the Lord for guidance. Gee, I wonder where the holy spirit and Jesus are when all these bad things happen with his earthly tools????????
Priests aren't perfect; they're human just like everyone else.
God doesn't prevent anyone from sinning if they choose to do so.
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 16, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
Heads up, if the Bronze and Iron Age Catholic church actually did some "good stuff," and in the eyes of the bible character Jesus, then they wouldn't have one dollar in their coffers because they should be spending it all in helping the poor worldwide!
Why is this true?
The Church needs buildings in which to conduct its meetings and to run its day-to-day affairs. Sports franchises build big stadiums to host their events...why can't a Church build the facilities it needs for services, for hospitals, for orphanages or for universities? Do these things not provide a way of giving back to the poor?
The fact is that the Catholic Church maintains many of its buildings in the same way that the US Government maintains national parks, monuments, and historic buildings. Should the government sell all of its land and property to pay off the national debt? Or is there some advantage in maintaining these treasures so that everyone can enjoy them? Similarly, the Church holds its property, art, libraries and archives as treasures open to all.
Sadly, there is little cash flow generated from these things relative to the cost of upkeep, so the Vatican routinely needs to request additional money just to break-even on an annual basis. This annual collection is called "Peter's Pence."
Are you envious that people have donated their time and money to glorify God through works of art and fine architecture? Does the Church have the right to take what has been donated to God in past centuries and put it all on the auction block without regard for what the original donors desired?
Finally, if the Church wanted to sell some of its churches, to whom would it sell them? Who is in the market for something like this:
(http://www.buffblack.com/cache/cityscapes/paris/panorama-of-stained-glass-centered-on-the-rose-window-sainte-chapelle-cathedral-paris-1248_w940_h570.jpg)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:32:47 PM
Priests aren't perfect; they're human just like everyone else.
God doesn't prevent anyone from sinning if they choose to do so.
Of course. It is convenient at times to have a perfect personal god and not at others. Of course.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 12:42:36 PM
Of course. It is convenient at times to have a perfect personal god and not at others. Of course.
Out for a troll today, Mike? As usual?
Does having a personal relationship with God mean that he forces you to do things you don't want to do or prevents you from doing things you do want to do?
heh...you're not married are you?
Quote from: reasonist on May 16, 2016, 05:09:42 PM
Between 2 and 3 TRILLION dollars is the estimate of the RCC's worth! Could wipe out hunger and/or provide drinking water for the world. But maybe there is some legal tender in their afterlife and they are just planning ahead? A celestial casino?
The problem with this idea is that it's a one shot deal. Sure, you might feed millions and temporary relieve the suffering of countless of people today, but what about tomorrow? I've said this before, the riches of the catholic church significantly add to their ability to bring in the billions of dollars a year. Marketing is everything.
Quote from: reasonist on May 16, 2016, 05:09:42 PM
Between 2 and 3 TRILLION dollars is the estimate of the RCC's worth! Could wipe out hunger and/or provide drinking water for the world. But maybe there is some legal tender in their afterlife and they are just planning ahead? A celestial casino?
For how long? Great!
Then what? People get hungry and thirsty again.
QuoteMatthew 26:6-13
6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?†they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.â€
10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a] but you will not always have me. 12 When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13 Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.â€
Quote from: Jack89 on May 17, 2016, 12:47:43 PM
The problem with this idea is that it's a one shot deal. Sure, you might feed millions and temporary relieve the suffering of countless of people today, but what about tomorrow? I've said this before, the riches of the catholic church significantly add to their ability to bring in the billions of dollars a year. Marketing is everything.
Success does tend to be contagious...
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:47:51 PM
For how long? Great!
Then what? People get hungry and thirsty again.
Uhm no. Drilling wells, building desalination plants, giving livestock like cattle, goats or sheep makes people self sufficient. Give someone a fish, he eats for a day. Teach someone to fish.....you get it I am sure.
I repeat: Why did the RCC find it necessary to torture and kill hundreds of thousands if all the FACTS and evidence is in their favor? If you can prove your claims, you don't have to worry about dissent or competition. That's why it's called evidence. If the only way to get evidence across is by torture, the evidence must be weak or non existent.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:44:54 PM
Out for a troll today, Mike? As usual?
Does having a personal relationship with God mean that he forces you to do things you don't want to do or prevents you from doing things you do want to do?
heh...you're not married are you?
With you only a troll is possible. Am I married? Not to the church.
Quote from: reasonist on May 17, 2016, 02:32:39 PM
Uhm no. Drilling wells, building desalination plants, giving livestock like cattle, goats or sheep makes people self sufficient. Give someone a fish, he eats for a day. Teach someone to fish.....you get it I am sure.
I repeat: Why did the RCC find it necessary to torture and kill hundreds of thousands if all the FACTS and evidence is in their favor? If you can prove your claims, you don't have to worry about dissent or competition. That's why it's called evidence. If the only way to get evidence across is by torture, the evidence must be weak or non existent.
Gosh, we did that a lot...like all the time practically. So, which time?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 03:47:11 PM
With you only a troll is possible. Am I married? Not to the church.
Or in a church?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 04:59:29 PM
Gosh, we did that a lot...like all the time practically. So, which time?
why don't you pick one of those times then go from there?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:37:53 PM
Why is this true?
The Church needs buildings in which to conduct its meetings and to run its day-to-day affairs. Sports franchises build big stadiums to host their events...why can't a Church build the facilities it needs for services, for hospitals, for orphanages or for universities? Do these things not provide a way of giving back to the poor?
The fact is that the Catholic Church maintains many of its buildings in the same way that the US Government maintains national parks, monuments, and historic buildings. Should the government sell all of its land and property to pay off the national debt? Or is there some advantage in maintaining these treasures so that everyone can enjoy them? Similarly, the Church holds its property, art, libraries and archives as treasures open to all.
Sadly, there is little cash flow generated from these things relative to the cost of upkeep, so the Vatican routinely needs to request additional money just to break-even on an annual basis. This annual collection is called "Peter's Pence."
Are you envious that people have donated their time and money to glorify God through works of art and fine architecture? Does the Church have the right to take what has been donated to God in past centuries and put it all on the auction block without regard for what the original donors desired?
Finally, if the Church wanted to sell some of its churches, to whom would it sell them? Who is in the market for something like this:
(http://www.buffblack.com/cache/cityscapes/paris/panorama-of-stained-glass-centered-on-the-rose-window-sainte-chapelle-cathedral-paris-1248_w940_h570.jpg)
Randy,
Your primitive Catholic church is worth
BILLIONS, upon BILLIONS, and they're NOT following Jesus' words by taking care of ALL of the poor, FACT! You sicken people when you try in vain to defend your church when they outright go against Jesus' words! Can you say HYPOCRITICAL? Sure you can!
CATHOLIC CHURCH BIGGEST FINANCIAL ORGANIZATION ON EARTHhttp://humansarefree.com/2012/03/christian-church-is-biggest-financial.html
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hMqb1ojWLuw/T3RebeA3-LI/AAAAAAAACRE/AOOkc5NS8eM/s400/pope.jpg)
As for what to do with Catholic churches, well, Europe has a lot of ideas when your church sells their churches because of the drastic decline of your primitive faith in the European countries!
Empty Churches Go On Sale in Europe as Christian Faith Declineshttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/1/12/1357344/-Empty-Churches-Go-On-Sale-in-Europe-as-Christian-Faith-Declines
The irony is the FACT that 2/3 of the existing primitive Catholic churches in Europe will close in the next decade. Some have already been sold, and in certain cases, they were made into Skating Rinks, which is a more truthful and viable use of a former Catholic church!
In the USA, we’re the new kid on the block, so it will take longer to close Catholic churches here, and in doing so, it will eliminate your dens of inequity and their spin relating to your serial killing Yahweh god and his doctrine to the ignorant inept minds.
Randy, sorry but logic and reason are returning in the 21st century, and the Christian faith, no matter what DIVISION of said faith, are being jettisoned and left behind where they belong, in the mythical past!
The current younger crowd are not swallowing the biblical facts of talking snakes and donkeys, where virgins on their wedding night should be murdered, where gays should also be murdered, where Yahweh committed abortions, smashed babies upon the rocks, having women ripped open with child, the Great Flood where he murdered his creation just because he was upset with them, boo hoo. Did I mention the comical and contradicting Creation narratives, another reason the Bronze and Iron Age faith of Christianity is declining.http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
Randy, you may live long enough to see Christianity, especially the Catholic version, fully decline to the point of a mere existence in the USA, won’t that be a memorable event for you as you hang on to that last mythical straw?
Quote from: 21CIconoclast on May 17, 2016, 05:17:41 PM
Randy,
Your primitive Catholic church is worth BILLIONS, upon BILLIONS, and they're NOT following Jesus' words by taking care of ALL of the poor, FACT! You sicken people when you try in vain to defend your church when they outright go against Jesus' words! Can you say HYPOCRITICAL? Sure you can!
CATHOLIC CHURCH BIGGEST FINANCIAL ORGANIZATION ON EARTH
http://humansarefree.com/2012/03/christian-church-is-biggest-financial.html
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hMqb1ojWLuw/T3RebeA3-LI/AAAAAAAACRE/AOOkc5NS8eM/s400/pope.jpg)
As for what to do with Catholic churches, well, Europe has a lot of ideas when your church sells their churches because of the drastic decline of your primitive faith in the European countries!
Empty Churches Go On Sale in Europe as Christian Faith Declines
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/1/12/1357344/-Empty-Churches-Go-On-Sale-in-Europe-as-Christian-Faith-Declines
The irony is the FACT that 2/3 of the existing primitive Catholic churches in Europe will close in the next decade. Some have already been sold, and in certain cases, they were made into Skating Rinks, which is a more truthful and viable use of a former Catholic church!
In the USA, we’re the new kid on the block, so it will take longer to close Catholic churches here, and in doing so, it will eliminate your dens of inequity and their spin relating to your serial killing Yahweh god and his doctrine to the ignorant inept minds.
Randy, sorry but logic and reason are returning in the 21st century, and the Christian faith, no matter what DIVISION of said faith, are being jettisoned and left behind where they belong, in the mythical past!
The current younger crowd are not swallowing the biblical facts of talking snakes and donkeys, where virgins on their wedding night should be murdered, where gays should also be murdered, where Yahweh committed abortions, smashed babies upon the rocks, having women ripped open with child, the Great Flood where he murdered his creation just because he was upset with them, boo hoo. Did I mention the comical and contradicting Creation narratives, another reason the Bronze and Iron Age faith of Christianity is declining.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/
Randy, you may live long enough to see Christianity, especially the Catholic version, fully decline to the point of a mere existence in the USA, won’t that be a memorable event for you as you hang on to that last mythical straw?
I have to say, 21C, that you've really shown me something about your knowledge of the Bible.
Now, this is troubling to learn that the Church might simply disappear in my lifetime. Doesn't the Bible say anything at all about the Church surviving somehow?
Please tell me I have
some reason for hope!
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 05:00:01 PM
Or in a church?
Nope, not in a church--but my wife has married several in a church.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 05:32:10 PM
Nope, not in a church--but my wife has married several in a church.
Okay, you are married. Which was my question to begin with.
That was easy. (http://forums.catholic.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 05:35:13 PM
Which was my question to begin with.
Uhh............what was your question to begin with?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 04:59:29 PM
Gosh, we did that a lot...like all the time practically. So, which time?
Does it matter? Inquisition maybe? 700 years of uninhibited slaughter and theft. For what? To get their facts across?
I really put it as simple as possible and not just once, a few times. But as the flock usually does, you practice selective reading.
This is a point you cannot whitewash in any way shape or form. You/the church claim to have the FACTS and EVIDENCE. If that is true, then why torture and kill scores of people? You don't have to conceal the truth with mass murder.
Quote from: reasonist on May 17, 2016, 02:32:39 PM
Uhm no. Drilling wells, building desalination plants, giving livestock like cattle, goats or sheep makes people self sufficient. Give someone a fish, he eats for a day. Teach someone to fish.....you get it I am sure.
I repeat: Why did the RCC find it necessary to torture and kill hundreds of thousands if all the FACTS and evidence is in their favor? If you can prove your claims, you don't have to worry about dissent or competition. That's why it's called evidence. If the only way to get evidence across is by torture, the evidence must be weak or non existent.
It wasn't because of disagreements about epistemology (what is true and how can we tell). It was because the Church by and large until 1500 was the continuation of the Roman Empire in a new form. And Rome is always expanding, always conquering, always enslaving ... just like it always was. This wasn't a bug, it was a feature. Ask anyone subject to Roman tourists:
"PLUNDERERS OF THE WORLD, HAVING EXHAUSTED THEIR LANDS WITH INSATIABLE LOOTING, THEY RANGE ACROSS THE SEAS. THE WEALTH OF ANOTHER COUNTRY EXCITES THEIR GREED; AND IF IT IS WEAK, THEIR LUST FOR POWER. NOTHING FROM THE RISING TO THE SETTING OF THE SUN IS ENOUGH TO SATISFY THEM. AMONG ALL OTHERS ONLY THEY ARE COMPELLED TO TAKE FROM THE POOR AS WELL AS THE RICH. TO ROBBERY, OUTRAGE, AND SLAUGHTER THEY GIVE THE LYING NAME OF FREEDOM; AND WHERE THEY MAKE A DESERT, THEY CALL IT PEACE." TACITUS
And the post 1500 world, including the US, are largely a re-vived Roman paganism. This is why the US loves perpetual war in the Middle East. Tacitus might have as well quoted Dick Cheney.